Fuss over the play-offs
Keo, in his Independent Newspapers column, writes only the play-offs can indicate who is the form team at this World Cup.
Springbok captain John Smit rightly defended his second-stringers and resisted offering a headline that would damn the youngsters after they sneaked a 30-25 win against Tonga.
Smit asked for perspective and said the side that had played Tonga, just like the combination that had played Connacht, had rarely played together. It had to be factored into the quality of performance.
What also has to be factored in my words and not those of Smit is that most of the starting XV against Tonga will not start again at this World Cup.
And that’s why I fail to understand some of the hysterical reaction to the Boks’ stuttering win against Tonga.
Had the side that won so handsomely against Samoa and England hit a wall against Tonga then the post-mortem would be justified. Then questions of peaking too soon would have been pertinent. Accusations of complacency would also not have been misplaced.
But there is absolutely no comparison to be made with the Samoa and England matches because the make-up of the two sides is so different.
The Bok machine is still very much in overdrive until the A team gives us a reason to think otherwise. The A team played Namibia and Scotland pre the World Cup and demolished Samoa and England in the first fortnight of the World Cup. In all four matches there was a World Cup quality to the performances.
There was also a World Cup quality to how the Boks dismissed the English in South Africa prior to the Tri-Nations, only to show vulnerability in the Tri-Nations against Australia and New Zealand.
What this tells us is we won’t know if the Boks are capable of winning the World Cup until they play one of Australia or New Zealand the likely opposition in a final should the Boks make it that far.
The first four weeks of the World Cup have told us nothing, other than that the northern hemisphere is awful and the Tri-Nations’ is tougher to win than the World Cup.
South Africa, to win the Tri-Nations, has to beat Australia and New Zealand. But to win this World Cup it will mean getting it right on one night against just one of them.
This World Cup is easier for the Boks than this season’s Tri-Nations, but it also complicates the merits of the Boks’ World Cup campaign.
Just like it would be fruitless to condemn the limp performance in Lens against Tonga, there will rightly be question marks about the substance of those wins against Samoa and England, based on the inferiority of the opposition.
Can the Bok scrum dominate against New Zealand? Will the lineout prosper against Australia? How good will our backs look against either of them when in June during the Tri-Nations they offered nothing?
It all comes down to one match for the Boks. If they don’t fall victim to complacency they should be in the final, but it is only then that we will be able to put a value to the six weeks that preceded it.
We are into the fourth week of a tournament that has been as farcical as it has been fantastic. The support in France has been tremendous, but the standard of rugby has been dire.
This tournament will only come to life in the final two weekends when strength plays strength and South Africa waits to see which of Australia or New Zealand it has to beat to win the World Cup.
September 26th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
was lanklaas eerste!
September 26th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Keo aren’t you getting a bit ahead of yourself to take it as a given that we will make it to the final? All of us want to see the Boks in the final, but first win the qauters and the semi’s.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Only time will tell how good our beloved boks really are, I just hope all our top boys will be fit for the play offs
September 26th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
would you be saying the same Keo if the Tongans had actually won?? How can you justifie a low score win against Tonga? it shows our depth is not soo great.
“Can the Bok scrum dominate against New Zealand? ”
the answer is no..JW should have taken the inform Heinkie.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Keo point taken but the reason many reacted in shock is that most of us believed our depth in the squad was strong. The Conacht and Tonga games just went to prove that beyond our A team lies a very scary cravass in skill and execution.
If you compare this to the versatility of the AB squad, there is no question we can’t afford any more injuries to key positions.
Before the Tonga game I was convinced we could carry on regardless should we suffer injuries along the way – now I am a lot more circumspect…
September 26th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
am shocked that no ones considering a french upset..go figure!
September 26th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Ireland will klap the argies. France will end top in their group. France will klap the boks in the semi’s to take revenge of the 95 robbery in Durbs.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Keo, it’s amazing how many words you can use to say absolutely nothing.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
#7 Bugsy have u been watching the Irish at all?
September 26th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Ataturk (shades of QP?), I don’t subscribe to the view that the B team players are much weaker than the A team. The big difference is that those guys have not played as a unit, as Smit says. This was most evident on the Nov 2006 tour, when they started badly but finished strongly as the new combinations gelled. That’s why consistency in selection has been a big feature of Jake White’s plans.
Danie Rossouw has moved seamlessly into Pierre Spies place, Steyn has taken Jean deV’s jersey as if it was tailored for him. After a few games, Pietersen has looked as good a Bok player as he is for the Sharks. I have no doubt that the other reserves will step up as well if they are required, as long as it’s not all 15 of them at once.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
jy lieg kaballas. Jou girl se jy kan dan altyd 1ste !
September 26th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
#9 NADS – Yes and they did not look impressive at all, but they know like the French against them that nothing but a solid performance will let them remain in the competition.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Down to 13 men with two key defensive players in the bin, coupled with a fired up Tongan team with the crowd behind them; and it’s easy to see how they nearly pulled off the upset.
When the “A-Team” start, they won’t be playing from a catch-up situation and hopefully we won’t be in a position to give the refs as many opportunities to penalize us. Focus and a superior, positive winning mind-set is all we should be gunning for!
September 26th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
#7 irish to win?? what WC have you being watching??
September 26th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
second !
September 26th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
#14 I have a feeling the crowd will be behind the Tongans for an upset. Can’t see it myself but sh*t happens(eg Wilkinson getting injured in the first five minutes)
September 26th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Bugsy #7
Given the Irish form v Argentinia’s form (against the same opponents) and that the Irish have to win, get the bonus and deny the Argies either bonus, I think it unlikely that we will see the French on our side of the draw …
September 26th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
The biggest difference between NZ and Sth Africa is depth. Your first team pretty much matches ours, but you dont have any quality coming off the bench, unlike the All Blacks. This was proven when we beat you at home in the Tri-Nations.
I’d be worried
September 26th, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Alicamousa #10
I hope so … lack of depth is my biggest fear
September 26th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
keo news a bit thin over in France..
What a pointless article.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
10 neither do I, not on past performance anyway, But if the argument is that they have not played enough, then how does that change should we require them as the tournament progresses?
Surely that is the point – they’re not firing as a team or as individuals. Pietersen has come on no doubt – but we don’t have 3 games to bring struggling players up to scratch anymore – there are only four left if we get it right!
No matter how you feel about the “B” skills, there can be no doubt that we expected better from them in both games (I include Conacht) and on both occasions they have failed to look anything like their potential – it’s a genuine concern, not the end of the world, but I guarantee you the AB and Aussie squads are not as off-kilter.
Let’s hope the A team keep on trucking, because the Bs wont get any more game time.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
#18 geez u up pretty late
September 26th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Maori_Fella #18
Depth on the bench isnt the problem, its depth if any of the 22 get injured that is the problem. So unless there are lots of injuries we should be just fine!
September 26th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
#21 what about a C team? sadly only the ABs have soo much depth they could field an A,B,C,D side and still be competitive.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Two things:
1) There is very little ’sportsmanship” on this site – reading many of the comments you would think the Bok B team had murdered women and kids and then ate them.
The thing is the second half produced GREAT RUGBY – the Boks tries (uh, 3 of them) were as good as ever seen in a green jersey – while the underdog played as if there was no tomorrow: the match went down to the wire with the crowd hysterical – for God’s sake what more do you want in a game?
Here’s a wierd concept – RUGBY WON THAT DAY.
2) Regarding Maori-Fella’s comments #18 – he’s right – our best chance is NOT BRINGING ON ANY IMPACT PLAYERS BECAUSE NONE OF THEM MAKE ANY IMPACT – play the 1st XV, a al the old days, and let’s see where that goes (like they did in the 2006 bashing of the All Blacks at Newlands – Umaga’s last game as captain in SA – nice send off for the man).
September 26th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
#24, the All Blacks’ B, C and D sides are called Samoa, Tonga and Fiji!
September 26th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Ja look – think people are needlessly worried about our depth.
Not for a moment saying all is well – we still have plenty to do, and am for one most certainly not viewing RSA’s progression through to the latter stages of this competition as a given…
But – unfair to crit our 2nd team as not displaying the neccessary talent.
The entire backline was new.
Julies had just come in.
The ball was being dropped at random in the contact point.
Now if that was only happening to certain individuals, I’d say fair enough – but even Wikus (who has been playing so well) just couldn’t keep hold of the ball…
Methinks the Tongan game was a combination of factors.
Firstly – they have been carrying tackle bags around for what must seem an eternity now. Say what you want – motivation is difficult.
Secondly, match sharpness isn’t something that just comes back.
These guys had to go from static tackle-bag moves to the real thing.
Not easy!
Thirdly, and most importantly – we gave the Tongnans a sniff.
Think about – in spite of how terribly we were playing, if Pretoors had slotted all his kicks, and if some of those moves were finished off – the half time score would have been vastly difference.
And that being the case – think the confidence would’ve kicked in, and we would’ve seen our boys do well in the 2nd half…
But that was not to be.
That being said.
Personally, I rather be in JW’s position right now.
Yes – we slipped against Tonga.
But things could’ve been easily different.
And at least JW clearly knows who his Gold and Green Teams are.
More importantly – his players know.
And they know each other well enough to pull off a good game…
Possibly a very good game…
September 26th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
#25 totally agree on both points. Thank God the Tongans didn’t win..imagine the uproar, I think even the politicians might get involve
September 26th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
#24 I agree with you, especially watching some of the NPC games.
An ABs C team, would beat most teams at this world cup.
However that said, if Boks meet ABs in final, the Boks will have their best 15, which is as good as the ABs best. And anything can happen on the day.
The final becomes a very tight game, and more conservative. Plus the mental aspect.
I do think that ABs have more depth in their squad to handle key injuries. If Boks were to have a few key injuries like JDP, Percy, and Habana we may have problems.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
#26 that be right, strange though that Canterbury team is the only side predominently full of white players.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
#29 AB ‘C’
15.S.Hamilton
14.David Smith
13.C.Laulau
12.Lachlan Munroe
11.L.Masagna
10.S.Brett
09.P.Weepu
08.M.Tuilivi
07.M.Holah
06.J.Kaino
05.T.Flavell
04.G.Rawlinson
03.C.Johnstone
02.C.Flynn
01.C.Dermondy
September 26th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
#30 GGerber
Reason for that is Canterbury is in the south island of NZ… Maori are predominantly north island.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
i’m sorry but the springboks would absolutely smoke that all black c team … our b team should smoke them too …
September 26th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
i hardly consider that c team to be in any way competitive in a world cup…
September 26th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
badeesh,
The Bok B team couldn’t smoke Tonga, so i don’t know where your belief that they should smoke them comes from.
Is it more in hope than belief?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
dude, we dropped 20 points in the first half hour … and still got away with a bonus point victory …
September 26th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Badeesh
Are you smokin the gear or what?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
18, sounds like you are worried.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Hello all…
Anyone here confident that GH clearly knows who his A and B teams are?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
i just think it’s sad that people think that all blacks c team that could be competitive at a world cup
they’re good but sheesh, that team is nothing to be feared … i think the cheetahs curry cup side and them would be a good contest.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:21 pm
Greenbok
I honestly think GH has two areas of concern.
Lineout and centre combination. Both Bok and Aussies have superior lineouts. Centres seem to have been sorted by all but the Kiwis.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Keo,
So you’re on the spin again
The Bok team that played was full of youngsters then was it. Which ones?
Would that be the now first choice Steyn? Or were you referring to Ruan Pienaar, even though he was first choice scrum half in the Tri Nations this year?
You can’t even call them inexperienced either.
What is true in your article is that the majority of the starting 15 for the Tonga game won’t start again in this world cup, barring injury. And that little fact is what must be worrying you and the Springbok supporters. Your first XV is as good as anyone elses. After that, the drop off is quite big and v noticeable.
A question i do have is – Do you think any of the first XV will get complacent about their place in the team now that they know the “dirt trackers” don’t have what it takes to challenge them for a starting spot?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
#40 cheetahs? you need to watch some of the NPC because some of the players in that C team would walk into any other test side in World.
Stephen Brett = better then Butch,AP,Ruan
Lachlan Munroe = McAlistair clone.
David Smith = NZ Habana
September 26th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Badeesh,
I never said an ABs C team would win the world cup, but on the evidence of most of the nations playing, they would defintely be competitive. It’s not their fault they are in the middle of a golden generation, is it?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:39 pm
greenbok,
I think Henry has chosen. If everyone is fit, I believe he will go for:
1. Woodcock
2. Oliver
3. Hayman
4. Robinson
5. Williams
6. Collins
7. McCaw
8. So’oialo
9. Kelleher
10. Carter
11. Sivivatu
12. McAllister
13. Muliaina
14. Howlett
15. MacDonald
16. Sommerville
17. Mealamu
18. Jack
19. Masoe
20. Leonard
21. Mauger or Evans (if McA covers 10, Mauger will be picked. If not, Evans will be selected).
22. Toeava
4/3 bench split.
Sommerville can prop both sides which frees up a bench spot for a back.
Robinson at 4 allows Williams to play the looser game he is so good at. Robinson is the Botha of the ABs.
Muliaina is one of the ABs best and most consistent performers. Henry will want him on the pitch. He showed his class when the ABs beat Italy in the first game. Neither Smith or Toeava have done enough IMO to change the coaches minds.
MacDonald has been one of the form fullbacks in the world cup. Henry will play Muliaina at 13 and MacDonald at 15.
What do you think?
September 26th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
yeah i realised that after the posts so apologies for the conclusion jumping …
i hold firm in the belief that if our b-team played the nz b-team … and both had ample preperation, there would be 10 points in it, max.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
badeesh,
I would agree with you on that belief.
September 26th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
to all those doubters about the impact of the bok bench – you are basing it on the durban game against the ab’s.
look at the current rwc set up – bismark, ruan and bob skinstad, all with fresh legs, will up the tempo in the last 20mins.
not bad i say.
September 26th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Ataturk, are you the infamous Quentin Poulsen? If so, why are you pretending to be a saffa?
September 26th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
#5 I agree with you. One would have thought that we have better depth than what we’ve seen lately. In a World Cup you need plenty of back-up. Holding onto the tackle bags have probably made them lazy. They’ll need to wake-up pretty soon!
September 27th, 2007 at 12:13 am
Keo we know for years that it is more difficult to win the Tri. however, dont say this WC is a farce. the rugby dire? I seen lots more boring games than this years WC. teams are all better coached and even the semi-professionals looks much better than previous WCups. did you perhaps read ‘no need to panic’ to come up with your analyses? click on my username to see what I’m refering to.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:20 am
I will say it again: We will have to fight for our lives against Argentina. I would not count on making it to the finals at all if we get complacent about the Pumas.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:46 am
#31 Yea I agree good team for ABs C. I would maybe have Braid at #7.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:54 am
Badeesh. I dont believe anyone said the ABs C team would beat the Boks A team. However,the AB’s C team could give the boks B team a go.
I beleive the AB’s C team could beat most sides including Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, yea and maybe even the poms right now. ( Thats made the poms mad I bet) Remember this mid year, when Junior ABs, (basically AB’s C team) beat the islanders.
September 27th, 2007 at 3:03 am
whilst I would like nothing more than to see the Boks in the final they still have a long way to go.
The Ireland/Arg game needs to go their way or else we have a very tricky quarter final to get through. Anyone that say the Pumas are easy is crazy. They are physical and are full of confidence. Injuries will also play a massive role as we lack depth in almost every single position on the field.
One game at a time or we may exit sooner than we think
September 27th, 2007 at 3:39 am
#55
Think you mean the semi KB. far as i can see we play wales regardless.
The pumas will be tough, but we will be fortunate to have played 2 sides prior (US and Wales) who are not physical sides.
Would rather we played the argies though, than france.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:19 am
Yep Kes,I think that the pumas will be tough and definitely cause a few injuries.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:58 am
45 After the shocker that Sivi had against Scotland, I do not think he will play. Rocco will be the man. I would have preferred the guy they left at home, who I rate as the best in the world; Gear.
33-35 Add in their four injured locks and Gear, and it would be a difficult side to overcome.
Pumas have conceded no try as yet. Captain Sook and the Choirboys have to get four. No way! Bye Bye and so they don’t need to be afraid of the MIB anymore, except for priests.
September 27th, 2007 at 6:43 am
no ones afraid of the men in grey
September 27th, 2007 at 7:24 am
#59
Or in white with a pretty red flower on there jersey
September 27th, 2007 at 7:46 am
If you had to pick the best 2nd fifteen to play for SA, who would you add to the current bunch?
I think the following players would strengthen the team that played against Tonga:
10. Grant – Granted (n.p.i.) AP could not play any worse than he did, Pieter might add some line attacking abilities to our flyhalf channel. I expect to see a lot more of him in a post-Butch era.
12. Barrit – Might be able to add some bite to our backs.
4/5. Albert is not a bad lock, but you have to consider the potential of players like Bekker, Pieterse and Corniel van Zyl who have all played very well this year.
6. Luke, Grobelaar – We have many good loosies in the country, so it is hard to say someone is the best outright. Even so, these two might have done well against Tonga.
13. Outside center is a concern. WO has not really played that well while Murray was really disappointed in the few tests he played. Any suggestions?
15. I think Ruan played really well at 15 and suspect that that might become his permanent position at the Sharks once Percy leaves. With Cocket and Matty they have plenty of quality at 9.
All comments are welcome but I would prefer calm, logical rugby related ones.