Give our boys a fair crack
8 May 2008
South African teams always start four league points down in the Super 14.
Once again it is down to two rounds in the Super 14 and one league win that separates teams two and seven.
Once again those who devised the structure of the tournament are commending themselves because any tournament in which the play-offs only get determined in the last week has to be a good one. At least that’s the self indulgence you will hear.
But the Super 14 is not a fair tournament. It favours the New Zealand and Australian teams because of travel determined by geography and it also gives half the teams a more favourable draw each year, which in essence means it is not a fair tournament.
The Super 14, like the Super 12, is weighted against South African teams.
This is not a gripe but a fact and yet we wonder why we continue to fail more than succeed.
Let’s take the Lions as an example. They are fair game and All Blacks legend Sean Fitzpatrick gave them a bollocking for their shabby performance against the Hurricanes in Wellington last weekend.
What Fitzpatrick did not say was that the Lions had been on tour for five weeks, jetting between New Zealand and Australia.
At most, New Zealand teams play three games in South Africa. Australian teams get two. Occasionally a New Zealand team will get an Aussie team on the way over or one on the way back and when they do you never hear the end of how demanding the schedule is.
This brings us back to the South African teams, for whom a short tour is four weeks.
The South African players in time have improved and learned to enjoy Australia and New Zealand, but no matter how much you enjoy a place the difference between three and five matches is a fortnight away from home and in all probability eight league points lost on the road.
When you consider that four league points have historically separated teams four and eight, you get to appreciate the impact of the additional two weeks away from home.
Given the circumstances and the disadvantage of the draw (based on geographics) the fact that South Africa invariably has one team in the semi finals and on most occasions two in the top five is a credit to the boys.
The reality is South Africa does not have the depth for five teams and neither does New Zealand. Australia also does not have the depth for four teams. But outside of the depth issue, the best South African teams do bloody well.
I don’t think we give them enough credit and I have been as guilty as the next person. Our expectations are high and we demand success every weekend. But the reaction too often is over the top.
Because of this South African inferiority complex, which too many still have, it seems improper to object to the schedule because then South Africans are accused of being an extension of Pommy whingers.
The obvious solution is for South African teams to play in Europe, but that doesn’t ever seem likely. South Africa, by playing in the Super 12, have improved New Zealand and Australia’s development of players, to the detriment of their own.
If there is to be an expansion to the Super 14 then it has to ensure the teams all play the same amount of games overseas and spend equal time away from home.
Otherwise we will be wasting our time again and continue to be the whipping boys of New Zealand and to a lesser degree Australia.
The point is the Kiwis are not that good and we are not that bad. But when we continue to give them an eight point tournament head start we will never know how good we can be in this tournament or just how ordinary their teams can look.
280 Comments
8 May 2008, 13:03 pm
snakessss
8 May 2008, 13:04 pm
no more dragons….
8 May 2008, 13:08 pm
About time this was addressed.
8 May 2008, 13:10 pm
cue tickler & wannabe
8 May 2008, 13:11 pm
The only solution I can think of is continental drift.
8 May 2008, 13:13 pm
the best South African teams do bloody well. Agree. Unfortunately there is no way to test the theory. The best would be to say, ok, you al travel to SA and play half your games here. But would Sanzar ever agree? No.
8 May 2008, 13:14 pm
at the end of the day, all the teams have at least 4 games awaay from home. Keo, what you asking for is impossible.
8 May 2008, 13:14 pm
All this and the fact that we have to contend with the sub standard refereeing too.
8 May 2008, 13:15 pm
Is it going to be worse foe SA teams in new super expanded longer Super competition?
I think so
8 May 2008, 13:16 pm
Yawn. Hana hana. Boring. Nothing will change the staus quo.
8 May 2008, 13:16 pm
well..we will never know how good or bad a kiwi or Aussie team would do if thay have to play 4 or 5 consecutives games in South africa………
8 May 2008, 13:17 pm
#4
I wouldn’t be surprised it Tackler is Wallabie.
8 May 2008, 13:17 pm
It’s the world’s natural tendency to feel antipathy towards all South African. Boo hoo.
8 May 2008, 13:17 pm
The only answer would be to split the tours, say if you are playing 5 games in Australasia, then you do 3 in the first part of the compitition and 2 near the end. But that just compounds the jetlag. I think we just need to deel with what life has dealt us. I believe the situation improves our ability to win oversees, because of the trials that we have to go through. “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” We are stronger for it.
Keo, drop this story once and for all. We have the tough deel, so If he get a home semi, it was a big effort! We just need to deel with it. Thats that! We are South Africans, not moffi ozzies or pommies, we can take it, and give it back 10 fold!
8 May 2008, 13:18 pm
#9 tassiebok: that’s going to be worse for every1.
8 May 2008, 13:18 pm
Snakes wanna bite me…no,no. That’s got to be the finest nick on this blog!
8 May 2008, 13:20 pm
I think that this post exaggerates the effect of long periods playing away from home.
I mean, I agree that this is not fair to the South African franchises, and it should be changed. How? Taking care with the expansion as the post suggests is a good way.
But please, let’s try not to fool anyone. In 12 years time, only last year the Super Rugby saw a South African champion while this year, 3 kiwi franchises compete against 1 aussie franchise and 2 south african franchises for the second, third and fourth place.
I don’t think that jetting two weeks longer has a 4 points impact.
8 May 2008, 13:20 pm
what if the aussies,kiwis and saffas play all their games against opposition teams one year at home, one year away. surely that would even out things a little.
8 May 2008, 13:22 pm
So what’s the excuse for the 3N win/lose scenario?
8 May 2008, 13:22 pm
I would also like to believe our travel schedule improves our chances of winning overseas, but why then have we not won in NZ since 98?
8 May 2008, 13:22 pm
I don’t like excuses, but fair is fair. A huge difference between a domestic and a international flight.
As for the Lions “who I love”, the stomers had to do the same thing, and they should of beaten the blues aswell.
See all at EP on the 17th of May.
8 May 2008, 13:23 pm
Not only that – Sharks are going to end 5th and fall out on points difference due to teams like the Cheetahs and Lions rolling over and playing dead when they play against NZ teams. Even at home. The Cheetahs managed to concede 150+ points to Canes, Saders and Blues…
8 May 2008, 13:23 pm
Whereas I agree with what Keo is saying, I would like to see a study done by somebody like Tim Noakes on just exactly what the disadvantages of a 5 week tour REALLY are.
In other words are they physiological or physchological or both.
Thereafter what could be done in a better way to minimize any disadvantages.
To my mind, it is one thing to say we are at a disadvantage, which I understand, yet it is important to get a full understanding of what that disadvantage really is.
Hopefully it is a lot more than just missing your mom’s koeksisters!!
8 May 2008, 13:23 pm
#17 Transvaal won the super 10.
8 May 2008, 13:24 pm
Keo, you are correct and most of us (and the Anzac guys) already know this. Unfortunately the lure of a share of $323 million from News Corp. is too strong an influence. Even if an SA team never won a match again, SARU would still get the much needed forex.
8 May 2008, 13:25 pm
I do hear the argument about the length of travelling, but I dont think you’re seeing the big picture….. That Stormers lost their 1st three games at home… is the reason they’re in trouble… not because of the length of travels…
The reality is its not like our teams get there and perform well for the 1st 3 weeks and then falter there after… from game one on tour they struggle!
Traditionally we struggle away from home….. whether the length of time spent away from home is one week or five weeks…. All you have to do is look at the statistics of the Springboks over the past ten years and look at their away record….. When was the last time we won in New Zealand…. and before last year, when was the last time that we had beaten a top 5 team away from home??
These are simply the facts Keo! Just the facts!
8 May 2008, 13:25 pm
Countering the argument one could say that SA sides get more practice playing in harder conditions and should therefore be at an advantage when test time comes. Alas, this too is not to be seen. Instead the boys should man-up and stop playing like lady bugs when on tour.
8 May 2008, 13:27 pm
BOO HOO
8 May 2008, 13:27 pm
Very good article… as i said elsewhere, the situation is merely compounded by the bottom 3 SA teams not winning their home games, thus making tours to SA easier
8 May 2008, 13:27 pm
#14 goodstuff:
That’s more like it Goody.
Someone tell me how many times the victorious 1937 Boks complained about having to play 2 games a week and having to travel by coastal ferries and trains for 2months non-stop.
8 May 2008, 13:29 pm
#22 King Shark: Sharks are my boys but this year they only got themselves to blame if they don’t make it! Last year they traveld well and AJ always remarks on how much the Shark team love to travel???? – but faith the boys will come through
Saders 57 points
Tahs 46 points
Canes 42 points
Sharks 41 points
Fingers crossed!!!
8 May 2008, 13:29 pm
#30 Cane,
How old are you?
8 May 2008, 13:29 pm
#26
The Springboks beat England at Twickenham and at the World Cup (twice) last year, although it would be difficult to argue that England are a top five team at the moment. Still, they did get to the final of the World Cup. Still, I agree with you – how many times have we beaten the All Blacks in NZ in the past decade? That says it all.
8 May 2008, 13:31 pm
#24 Ed_the_Lion: Hell Bro – that was a long time ago when EP was full and TVL was the richest union – don’t know if we will ever see those days again???
8 May 2008, 13:32 pm
#16 Ryan: thank you ryan.
8 May 2008, 13:32 pm
#30
Hate to say it but Cane’s right. The issues of travel/homesickness/jetlag serve merely to deflect our attention from the truth: SA teams are generally **** in Australia and New Zealand.
8 May 2008, 13:32 pm
#19 cane: Give us a minute. We’ll get back to you on this.
8 May 2008, 13:32 pm
Ja well same old thing.
How about splitting the comp into 2 groups, group teams so they have similar or slightly equal travelling schedules, alternate yearly so teams with difficult schedules have easy ones the next year and so on?
Have not really considered the math in this as I am in deperate need of a drink and my brain has switched off.
8 May 2008, 13:33 pm
#34 Gr8ter…We will see it again..That I promise to you..
8 May 2008, 13:34 pm
If what you are saying is true Keo then it makes the Bulls success last year a truly monumetal event. It means the Bulls are the best team that have ever played in Super rugby. This is what it means.
It makes this year even more disastrous though because it means we fell even further than we originally anticipated, and that is far boetie.
The Bulls deserve to be harshly ciriticized this year. Even with travelling if you win all your home games you have a solid platform to launch into the semis.
8 May 2008, 13:35 pm
#32 Ed_the_Lion:
Old enough to be able to name the bok backline in 1970…………but not the 37 backline of course………..I only mentioned them because among the real old timers they were considered to be the best Team to ever tour here.
8 May 2008, 13:35 pm
Keo,
The expansion may be a solution to get more countries involved and therefore be able to draw greater TV audiences. For that SANZAR could demand a much greater media deal. The expansion, however, is not a solution for us. We should focus our attention to Europe and aim to be part of the Heineken and European Cup. Besides the obvious time zones and less travel for our teams, Europe offers us a great deal more money. The cream of rugby players are being lured to play in Europe anyway, so our teams will still be playing against some of the best of Australian and NZ players.
Furthermore, a Springbok coach will have a greater opportunity to view our foreign based players. It’s a fact of life that more of our players are going after better money overseas, so this way talented players will not feel that they’re being overlooked when signing for a foreign club. We don’t need Australia and NZ; they need us. We can still be involved in the Tri-nations and simply arrange our season around the Heineken cup and the Tri-nations. In a way, this may suit Australia and NZ also, as they don’t like the travel aspect of the Super 14.
We have the opportunity now to break away from the Super 14. Why go for another 5 years of playing at a disadvantage from the start?
8 May 2008, 13:36 pm
Keo
The Boks travel the same as their teams in the 3 Nations and still struggle to win there.
If the team is good enough then the results will reflect so. Stormers this year case in point.
There are no surprises for our teams and they know long beforehand what the schedule is.
Get professional and get over it.
8 May 2008, 13:37 pm
#38 PissAnt: Isn’t it braai time yet?
8 May 2008, 13:37 pm
#40 BlueBlood: I’m with you on this one – last year the Sharks tour went well and the Stormers did well this year! But jet lag is a *****!
8 May 2008, 13:38 pm
#40 BlueBlood: Bollocks. The Kiwi teams were all at half strength last year.
8 May 2008, 13:39 pm
Keo, can you maybe do an article on the Lions and Cheetahs. Especially the Cheetahs. They were introduced to the S14 the same year as the Force but the Force left them behind for a while now. The Lions cannot seem to get above the 11th mark. WHAT is up, can we still blame the failed Cats marrige? Why cant the Lions Buy/attract good players and coaches, despite being based in the richest city in Africa? Why do the Cheetahs do SO well in the Currie cup and the V.Cup, but they cant save their life in the S14.
The fact that they keep on losing (year in and year out) effect the other SA contenders challange on the semis, its definately a national matter (rugby-wise)
8 May 2008, 13:39 pm
What if the Boks emigrate to Perth? Would this help?
8 May 2008, 13:39 pm
#41 Cane
Just joking with you.
I don’t think travelling should be any excuse. Jetlag wears of in a day or two.
The Lions just have the ability to loose against themselves. If you beleive in yourself nothing should stand in your way….
I still love the LIONS, and hopefully in the CC travelling to Loftus wont make them tired.
8 May 2008, 13:40 pm
#19 cane: Simple;
Harry Viljoen (shopping more than coaching when on tour)
Straeuli (no need to explain this one)
Carel DuP (made Bok coach when he never coached any team before that)
Markies (selects debutants against NZ and then blames them for the loss)
8 May 2008, 13:40 pm
no one like my suggestion?
well, lets try again.
lets take the saffa teams as an example. lets say they played all the kiwi teams on tour one year. thats 5 games on tour. then their touring is done. the aussie teams then all play the saffa teams in south africa. the kiwis play all their games against aussie teams in aus.
the next year, it reverses.
sure, our teams will still play 5 games on tour but at least they will not have to hop the tasman as well.
we would still end up travelling more than either aus or nz teams but at least the tour lengths would be equal.
i admit, i am not great with logistics so if you want to shoot this idea down, feel free.
8 May 2008, 13:42 pm
ANYBODY, THOUGHT ON MY POST #47. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT U SAY.
8 May 2008, 13:42 pm
#47 Steph: I actually called for a return to the Cats in an article I wrote some time ago: http://www.sharksworld.co.za/2008/03/24/the-experiment-has-failed-bring-back-the-cats/
As you may recall, the Cats actually made the semi-finals two years running when they had a decent coach.
8 May 2008, 13:44 pm
#51 rangerman:
It sounds good to me
8 May 2008, 13:44 pm
#36 gizzard:
Not entirely true gizzard. I think some of the problem lies in the “pillaging” of the lesser Teams talent by the BIG Teams. Bulls. Sharks.
Sure the Bulls/Stormers should have a far better record than they actually have……..but the Sharks in particular, I should imagine, would have a pretty good record overall in Australasia.
8 May 2008, 13:44 pm
#47 Steph: I replied, but it’s awaiting moderation cos I posted a link to my website.
Basically, I wrote an article where I suggested that the Cats should be reformed, based on how shocking the Lions and Cheetahs are individually.
8 May 2008, 13:46 pm
#51 rangerman: They need to make each country have 5 teams for this to work and then one country still has the advantage which we will never have – but it does equalise a little!
8 May 2008, 13:47 pm
Steph the Cats were a disaster because of Ludekak. He did nothing for them and he is doing less for the Bulls. The Lions also have Ellis Park which is situated in the Mugabe of areas.
8 May 2008, 13:47 pm
#47 Steph: ???? don’t know !
8 May 2008, 13:48 pm
give the stormers any crack and they are happy he he..
BUT about the article, whatever mate! as a youngster that tours around a lot, you cant honestly tell met that our S14 player dont like tourng around, it is an experience… rather ***** and moan about DICKenson and the like rather than about a sniffy little issue like this…
if its doesnt kill you it makes you a better man, and we have a WC to show for all this S14 touring heartache… …
8 May 2008, 13:48 pm
#52 Steph:
Stephie,
The Force rise co-insided with the demise of the Reds.
As the Force got better……….the poor old Reds sank to the lowest depths in their proud History.
The Answer is Money…….The Force have/had plenty.
That’s my 2 cents worth anyway.
8 May 2008, 13:49 pm
#55 robdylan from Sharksworld.co.za:
so i go to sharksworld to check out your article?
8 May 2008, 13:51 pm
what the hell… i can post on any thread but the one where i have to post my predictions… can anyone maybe help?
8 May 2008, 13:51 pm
#51 Rangerman
The problem there is the SA public will not get the opportunity to see any NZ teams live for a year or so.
It’s still nice seeing those caliber players live even if thet do perhaps beat the side you support.
To me the travel factor depends more on the draw, ie. if you get off with 2 or 3 wins against teams you are better than then the tour goes great, if you start with losses then the travel factor can be blamed.
8 May 2008, 13:53 pm
#62 Steph: yes. Once at the site, search for the text “The experiment has failed”…
8 May 2008, 13:53 pm
#60 cane: Thats true – but the Lions union was rather well off as well – they where just totaly mis managed by all concerned! Cheetahs are just too poor!
8 May 2008, 13:53 pm
I have to agree to most of what keo has said but would also like to say that – and maybe it is our inferiority complex – that the Aussie and NZ refs treat our players/teams in the most appalling way with virtually every 50/50 decision going the way of NZ/Aussie teams which after about 12 years begins to feel like a well planned conspiracy to ensure that their best teams feature in the semis and finals. The fact is that Aus/NZ need us because without us the competition would literally collapse. Both these countries have serious issues to deal with, both from spectator appeal and player growth but they do not necessarily want us This goes to show how incredulous the Sharks/Bulls final was last year. A would wage a bet that the Aussie/NZ rugby lords will make sure that never happens again! The answer is that the competition must be grown and split to ensure that everyone travels the same amount. This would also take some of the boredom out of watching the same teams year after year. I think that SA teams playing in Europe may be short sighted and whilst the Heineken Cup has been great the fact that the weather etc is so different means that we would revert to big rolling packs wrestling in the mud again – just as we are starting to see SA sides using skill and pace through the backs and forwards and this tyle is suited to the Southern Hemisphere.
8 May 2008, 13:54 pm
Can someone do a comparison between how many games all SA S14 teams have won/lost on their first two games in Australasia and how many they have won/lost on their last 3 games on that tour. In other words do SA sides as a whole get better as the tour continues or simply fall away?And how does their win /lose rate for the first two games compare with the win/lose rate for Aussi and NZ sides in South Africa? Of course this does not take in to account that it is easier travelling from OZ/NZ to SA wrt jetlag than from SA to OZNZ or the quality of opposition, but if averaged over 3 or 4 years it may tell a story…….
8 May 2008, 13:54 pm
#63 daniel: ja daniel, but the following year you would get to see them all. whetting the appetite to see the greats like mccaw. would maybe increase crowd attendance as a spin off.
8 May 2008, 13:54 pm
Ek wonder of die Aussies en Nieu Seelanders onpartydige sheidsregters van Namibia sal aanvaar vir hulle wedstryde in Suid Afrikal!
8 May 2008, 13:54 pm
#49 Ed_the_Lion:
Actually Ed, this year I have often really enjoyed watching the Lions, Cheats and Highlanders. And I love it when they win.
(as long as they don’t beat my canes of course).
8 May 2008, 13:55 pm
#60 cane:
That is true, but why then cant the TVLRU get better funds. Really, they are in the middle of Josie, Arguably the richest country in Africa.
Also, does the Euro clubs not give a certain amount of money to the S14 unions when buying their players? If not, this is something that ALL S14 teams could do, becuase we are all losing players.
#57, Blueblood. Its true, Ludikak is the black night of SA rugby Apacolypse, but why did they do so well when De Vos was still captain. The coach was from NZ I think? Why cant they do it again?
8 May 2008, 13:56 pm
#64 robdylan from Sharksworld.co.za:
shot, gonna check it out now. Will post a reply
8 May 2008, 13:57 pm
#68
Maybe they need to do and IPL Cricket spinoff and base all the teams in one neutral country for the duration of the S14.
No excuses of home ground, travel etc. One way to see once and for all who is the real champ.
8 May 2008, 13:58 pm
#67 superba:
That is a bit unfair, becuase jet lag cathes you on such a long flight, and in this type of competition it DOES count. Why dont the NZ/Aus teams have the samy issue, they fly in the oppisite direction, no lag.
8 May 2008, 13:59 pm
I wish Rob.
8 May 2008, 14:04 pm
you cant argue with geography.
teams having to travel brings more to the game, in terms of spectators,BMT,challenge…etc
its time Saffas rise to the occasion and relish the opportunity to go play abroad.
8 May 2008, 14:04 pm
#76 PissAnt: No drinking for me… I need to go for a run. Bleurgh
8 May 2008, 14:05 pm
I say leave it the way it is. It serves us well every other 4 years, nuff said.
8 May 2008, 14:06 pm
#74 Steph. Try it . Jet lag differs wrt your direction of travel. It is a lot easier to travel one way than the other. It is not equal as I understand it. Any airline pilots / flight stewards out there to comment ?
8 May 2008, 14:07 pm
traveling west to east tends to nail you a lot worse than the other way round.
8 May 2008, 14:08 pm
Bollocks to all of this rubbish. I’m sick and tired of the same old excuses. You don’t hear the kiwi’s or aussies moan about the highveld when we bash them at altitude. The Sharks have proved it, the Stormers have proved it, the Bulls have proved it last year, we can win away.
It all comes down to coaching really. **** Muir went to Sharks, they started to play good rugby, Erasmus went to the Stormers, they started to play good rugby, Heyneke Meyer left the Bulls, they started to play bad rugby.
I don’t want to hear any more excuses. When the touring sides played long tours overseas they went by ship, and probably didn’t travel first class.
This is the professional era. You play to the whistle, and to the bounce of the ball and to any number of obstructions or impediments that get in your way and you don’t gripe, whine or harp on about anything. Thats what seperates the champions from the wooden spoons.
8 May 2008, 14:08 pm
#77 robdylan from Sharksworld.co.za: Like my dad always used to say; “Daar is nie pille vir domgeit nie” – suffer bra.
8 May 2008, 14:10 pm
expend the super 14 to Super 18 , get other countries involved , how about Namibia Tonga etc ?
8 May 2008, 14:13 pm
#71 Steph: True – Rugger should start working like football – transfer fees to the union if you “sell” your players would see alot af euros flowing in and youngsters whould be snapped up by unions so that they can develop them and potentially get a transfer fee.
8 May 2008, 14:14 pm
What I mean is that you play to the tune of the whistle and the bounce of the ball and you’ve got to be good enough to win despite the setbacks, otherwise you are never truly champions. Look at the All Blacks at the World Cup.
8 May 2008, 14:15 pm
jet lag directly preportional to spin of the Earth – with the spin or against it means greater or lesser effect. It is a factor to consider.
8 May 2008, 14:16 pm
#67 #80. Have just googled ” jet lag ” and the info is ” travel west if possible , as when travelling east jetlag is twice as bad because you lose time “. Oz/NZ teams travel west to SA , and SA teams east to OZ/NZ. Makes sense.
8 May 2008, 14:16 pm
Hiya all,
I’m looking for some opinions here please…
I’ve made some pretty precise predictions on my website for the final 2 rounds of the Super 14. WHen I say precise, I don’t necessarily mean they are going to be correct, I mean I have predicted exact scores and exactly how many tries each team will score in these final 2 weekends etc.
I have then taken these results, inserted them into the currect S14 table, and have come up with some interesting results. Do me a favour (and yourselves
) Click on my nick, you’ll see the link is the first story there. Then check it out and let’s talk… I’ll be waiting…
:-p
Don’t want traffic. Don’t money. Don’t have advertising. Just want some good rugby talk ahead of the last two weeks of the Super 14…
8 May 2008, 14:21 pm
Why not have a country host it as an event? One year SA hosts it and then NZ then Oz. Even in Neutral countries ie europe,japan etc.
If that wont work then play pool matches with each team playing 1 game at home and 1 away to each other. Have the semi final or quarters at the top placed teams home grounds and then have a neutral venue for the final like they do in the Champions league.
Could work.
8 May 2008, 14:22 pm
#79 superba:
I am not sure if you agree, disagree with me, but what you say are true. J.lag effects you differantly depending on which way you travel
#84 Gr8ter:
Exactly, we should get ou **** together. TheS12 unions and Sarfu should get together to protect the transferring of our players. What they can even do, is say, ok, the players dont pay full tax to the govenrment, but they pay the other part to the S14 Union “board”. That way, when a top priority player (Big Vic) wants to play over sea’s the S14 board could chip in… just a thought.
If we protected our players better, the Cheetahs could still have had: Marius Joubert, that windgat winger, Willem de Waal, Ollie le Roux. Could’ve turned those close games into wins…
8 May 2008, 14:23 pm
#77 robdylan from Sharksworld.co.za:
Nice article
8 May 2008, 14:25 pm
23 tight head:
The geographycal divide has both physiological and psychological effects. Initially, and especially, the travelling forward into time component has far more physiological effects and towards the end esp., the psychological effects are at its greatest.All this is clearly well known already hence we can raise these questions.
8 May 2008, 14:29 pm
Divide the S14 into two Conferences……..then expand it with 2 Argentine Teams, a Nippon and a Pacific Islands team.
Atlantic/Eastern Conference:-
Bulls,
Stormers,
Lions,
Spears,
Cheetahs,
Sharks,
Tucuman Condors,
Buenes Airies Tango’s.
Namibian Sandmen.
Pacific/Western Conference:-
Reds,
Tahs,
Force,
Brumbies,
Canes,
Chiefs,
Highlanders
Blues,
Pacific Mako’s.
Hiroshima Fallouts.
Top 3 teams in Each Group to meet in Playoffs. With lowest Qualifers getting only one life and the hardest games.
8 May 2008, 14:30 pm
# 86 Do you know of any way of turning the spin around? For the S14 tournament ?
8 May 2008, 14:30 pm
here mate, wake up in the morning, het a lekker body, play your fav sport and get paid handsomely for it, bit sorry bru, you have to go tour overseas every now and then… tough life hey, im sure there are 99% of alpha males that hate the idea of that kinda life…
8 May 2008, 14:34 pm
yes superba #94… if we decrease the nr of aussie teams to 2 and kiwi teams to 3 and SA teams to 9 then i think the travel arrangements would be about the same for all…
the S14 is good for SA rugby… mental and travel toughness and we get to play real teams or at least the Kiwis are real teams and not the pantsies in the northern hemisphere… cry me a sewage line…
8 May 2008, 14:36 pm
Is there then any real wonder then that WPStormers have consistently performed best in Australasia even in a bad season/s as when KvdM was running the show?
Smart people know that Noakes’ Sports Science Centre is WPSTormers secret weapon as they are the best not only in there time zone (north or south, and that is why he is essentially loaned out to the Univ.of Glasgow for e few years) but arguably east and west also.
8 May 2008, 14:36 pm
#93 cane:
Would still mix the pools a bit and play 1 home and 1 away. But not bad.
8 May 2008, 14:38 pm
#93 cane: Love the names & the idea – **** load of rugger to watch – will have to get rid of the missus if the idea cottons on! Coach potatoe delux – beer consumtion through the roof followed by AA meetings when no rugger is being played (probably never)!
8 May 2008, 14:40 pm
Keo I believe there is an answer.
Make sure all teams play at least 4/5 games away in a row. Like SA teams do now. One year 4 the next 5.
NZ teams – Play 2 games in Aus and then 2/3 games in SA. (They could always come to SA first).
Aus teams – Play 2 games in NZ and then 2/3 games in SA. (They could always come to SA first).
This way all teams have the same touring scenario.
To give all teams a 5 weeks in a row away teams sould play a local derby away before or after the tour.
8 May 2008, 14:40 pm
And now I am watching those same Stormers whip the Brum. with some scintillating attacking play in the ist half in a replay on Setanta.
8 May 2008, 14:41 pm
# 96 Do you mean pantsies, pansies or panties?
8 May 2008, 14:45 pm
And De Villiers scores a brilliant try from a scything Bobo break.
The only real soloution is drop this competition and play in the same time zone with Europe and resume the tours to Aus. and NZ as of old.
8 May 2008, 14:46 pm
#92 ET:
ET.
Thanks for that info.
My interest is in the real effects on professional, conditioned athletes.
I see you mention Tim Noakes and the Stormers.
It would be interesting to hear his opinion on just how much of a disadvantage this really is, or are we just mentally not tough enough?
8 May 2008, 14:51 pm
I agree with the general gist of the article but how do you explain the Lions/Cats/Golden Lions/Cheetahs and Bulls (yes, the Bulls too just look at the tournament records since it started) getting regularly drubbed at home by NZ teams?
8 May 2008, 14:51 pm
#87 superba:
Absolutely correct as I say in post #92 when referring to travelling forward in time i.e. east.
8 May 2008, 14:53 pm
#104 tight head: It`s no secret that the boy`s crave ma se kos. Seriously though, I would think that travelling would affect the older players with families more. Most 20 somethings love travelling. I`m not sure i put much stock in physiological reasons for our general poor performances on the road, i reckon it`s a mental issue.
8 May 2008, 14:56 pm
#104 tight head:
And another brilliant break by Jean leads to a penalty try. Oh if this were only coming Saturday already.
Th., years ago Noakes spoke on this matter hence all the questions. Why not just google it for answers as I am watching the replay of the Stormers victory now.
8 May 2008, 15:00 pm
Still think its mostly “Ma se koeksisters”
8 May 2008, 15:02 pm
#107 sondebok:
If I just travel 2 hrs. by car north -west my physiology is thrown out of sync. and thus my and anyone’s routine. Some of us , not understanding the physiology do not have the capacity to brealise this. Psychological effects as I said earlier, come more into effect towards the end.
8 May 2008, 15:04 pm
Stormers will win the cup this year.
8 May 2008, 15:05 pm
#26 Keyser Soze: Didn`t know the Stormers are in trouble….
8 May 2008, 15:08 pm
Net solank hulle met “fair crack” nie bedoel “blonde holhare” nie…
8 May 2008, 15:08 pm
#110 ET: These are highly conditioned athletes. I`m sure team management is aware of recovery times etc from jetlag. They don`t play immediately after getting off the plane, they have a few days to acclimatise. If the travel itinerary is properly organised I can`t see why travelling should have any physical effect on a teams performance.
8 May 2008, 15:08 pm
#109 tight head:
Not as simple as that. There is something called the physiological diurnal clock( daytime/light and night/dark). During the dark when we are far less busy(relaxing/sleeping) we replace many molecules such as hormones, enzymes, and organelles and even cells that we used and lost during the day/light hours.
8 May 2008, 15:10 pm
Tony the Stormers are facing a do a die situation…. they cant afford yo lose a single game….. thats troubled waters!
8 May 2008, 15:15 pm
#113 Dr Hoendergatveer: Ha ha. Nee, ek dink hulle bedoel rookbare kokaïen teen ‘n billike prys.
8 May 2008, 15:16 pm
Excuses, excuses. In the (good) old days, touring teams (on a couple of months tours – not just one month) used the time positively to weld individuals into teams both for that particular tour and for the future. A little different to the “teams” today but surely our sides could devote at least some of the time to honing the deficient individual skills that abound in our teams – and surely with that amount of time on their hands there should be no such thing as a lineout ball not going in straight or not going to the right jumper or a ball going straight into touch from the kick-off etc etc etc etc etc etc? These tours should present an opportunity to learn to win – not an excuse to play poorly and lose.
8 May 2008, 15:16 pm
#116 Keyser Soze: I hear what your saying but at the moment we have our destiny in our own hands which is a nice position to be in.
8 May 2008, 15:17 pm
#92 Steph: Thanks. Do pop in regulalrly – I’ll try to keep them coming
8 May 2008, 15:17 pm
#115 ET:
ET.
I can see that you know what you are talking about.
However with all of this scientific knowledge at the disposal of teams, I would think that the planning for these trips needs to also be done scientifically, in order to get the best solution for the player performance.
So if this is being done by professional teams, perhaps the disadvantages can be minimized.
My understanding is this is exactly what is happening.
8 May 2008, 15:18 pm
#114 sondebok:
They are still just humans who simply have more muscle cells (sometimes less fat) and other structures that makes them cope with there demands for playing rugby. They take days to return to a their physiological clock and within them some take longer than others. And then they have to train and play real tough demanding games of rugby. For example if you leave CT to stay in Jhb. it will take anyone months to acquire the same concentration of red blood cells as a player who has been there permanently. Far more complex than you think.
8 May 2008, 15:19 pm
Guys, from personal experience jetlag is much worse going to NZ than it is coming back home. It literally takes a week for your body to get back into sync. I`m sure the teams have medication that assists but there is no way you can negate the effects completely.
8 May 2008, 15:20 pm
#89 CRAZY-Shark: I like that! I would like to cross-post it on my site, or at least link to it.
8 May 2008, 15:21 pm
#117 katman:
Of miskien rocks wat net 50% gecut is.
8 May 2008, 15:22 pm
wot the *** has just happened to the site?
8 May 2008, 15:27 pm
#123 Tony Moneo: There is a way, but it`s more expensive and will take longer. Simply fly around the other way so you are always flying with the time ie east to west.
8 May 2008, 15:28 pm
#88 CRAZY-Shark:
I can’t fault you predictions in terms of win\lose (for crucial games) but I can’t see the tahs not getting at least 1 bonus point from their two remaining games. The sharks on the udder hand have struggled with bonus points (2 from 11 games). They’ll get 9 points at most from their remaining games.
I’d love to see two SA sides in the semis but this is how I think it will pan out.
Crusaders (57)
Stormers (44)
Tahs(42)
Hurricanes(41) (better PD than sharks)
8 May 2008, 15:28 pm
#121 tight head:
Agree, but there are still many limitations to our knowledge as we are limited by the tools we have or do not have available to us. We do not have all the answers yet and when we do get some there will be even more questions. Our knowledge of the brain and thus psychology leaves a lot to be desired and we may most times be guessing.
Then, consider this, a new can of worms can be opened when more of genetics is unravelled and abused by reseachers also in search of that human weakness called money. It will make sprinter Marion’s cheating look like childsplay.
8 May 2008, 15:31 pm
#125 Dr Hoendergatveer: Dit klink vir my fair.
8 May 2008, 15:33 pm
#129 ET: They should have 2 seperate olympics. 1 for normal, drug free athletes and the other one, underwritten by the drug companies as a demonstration of what the human body can achieve through the wonderful drugs they create. Although PETA, or People for the Ethical Treatment of Athletes would never allow it.
8 May 2008, 15:35 pm
#129 ET:
Great food for thought.
Thanks for your interesting input.
As you say, Money! Money! Money!
Off for a beer.
Catch up later.
8 May 2008, 15:38 pm
We have the Talent we need the right administration and look after the Players and coaches…
WHAT COUNTRY SACKS THE COACH FOR WINNING THE WORLD CUP??
I rest my case…
If Rassie and **** leaves … then what… ?????
8 May 2008, 15:44 pm
Site has been farked since Monday.
8 May 2008, 15:53 pm
The expanded super series should level it out, if it’s split into 2 divisions with top 2 in each going into the finals. Americas one year and Australasia the next. Without being able to cherry pick from the islands the kiwis will really struggle to field 4 teams let alone 5
8 May 2008, 15:58 pm
#130 katman:
Hang af van die prys.
Maar uncut crack is skaarser as hoendergatvere.
8 May 2008, 15:59 pm
Hey, where`s ruck?
8 May 2008, 16:06 pm
(WP Till I Die (TM))
Tony, I think she is still busy with field research in Blue Bull country.
8 May 2008, 16:09 pm
I agree wholeheartedly, Keo.
The Super 14 is not good for South African rugby. We are stronger with Europe, than stretching ourselves to play provincial rugby in Australasia. Europe and South Africa are the geographic center of the rugby world. The rugby focal lenses are being warped by the Super 14. Let New Zealand and Australia stretch to reach us.
We need to exit the Super 14 and join an expanded English/European provincial competition. This way we will be able to watch our overseas based players weekly, the unbalanced travel schedules of our teams in the Super 14 relative to the Australasian teams will be eliminated, and SARU will be paid in pounds or euros for its share of the television rights. Argentina will come into into greater focus and benefit as well.
This is the single most important rugby issue facing SARU.
8 May 2008, 16:16 pm
#42 superbok: I am so with you, Superbok.
8 May 2008, 16:17 pm
#138 Dr Hoendergatveer: hey, is that chickenarsewiper or chickenarsefeather or chickenarsespring
8 May 2008, 16:20 pm
#138 Dr Hoendergatveer: Thx Doc WPTID, that kind of research may take a while. Is she researching the mating habits of the bull tannies? They only get “some” when the bulls win. Hence there has been a baby boom during the last 2 years which is to be followed by a few very barren years. They will be called “Generation Y” (as they don`t have both chromosomes)…
8 May 2008, 16:28 pm
#142 Tony Moneo:
XX male syndrome (also called de la Chapelle syndrome) is a rare *** chromosomal disorder in men. Usually it is caused by unequal crossing over between X and Y chromosomes during meiosis. Symptoms include small testes, gynecomastia and sterility. Many males with this condition also have effeminate characteristics.
Men typically have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each diploid cell of their bodies. Women typically have two X chromosomes. XX males have two X chromosomes, but otherwise appear to be male.
8 May 2008, 16:31 pm
#139 sglazer:
What an Eurocentric view.
8 May 2008, 16:33 pm
#143 Dr Hoendergatveer: My point exactly… LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
8 May 2008, 16:34 pm
#144 Dr Hoendergatveer:
Fark dokter, jy ken jou ‘dromes’ and ‘osomes’…en hier dink ek heeltyd jy is n tandarts!
8 May 2008, 16:36 pm
#146 Pietman: A man of many talents!
8 May 2008, 16:38 pm
And in case anyone’s wondering – “gynecomastia” is the polite term for man boobies.
8 May 2008, 16:40 pm
#144 Dr Hoendergatveer: No, it’s honoring our geographic location. The fact is we are in the same time zone as Europe and together form the geographic center of the rugby world. We warp this reality by shifting the focal lenses to Australasia, to our own disadvantage.
8 May 2008, 16:43 pm
#118 grunk: In the good old days, there would be one major tour per year and home and away tours would be alternated yearly.
8 May 2008, 16:44 pm
#148 Dr Hoendergatveer: The common term for said occurence is Moobies….
8 May 2008, 16:46 pm
keo
we DO have the advantage of playing the last games (for those still in the running), knowing EXACTLY what we need to go through!
8 May 2008, 16:46 pm
#150 sglazer: Your rright about the Good old days. S14 and Trinations will never be able to hold a candle to proper tours.
Unless of course my Stormers win the S14, in which case I reserve the right to change opinion.
8 May 2008, 16:48 pm
#151 Tony Moneo: Necessitating the use of a supportive undergarment called a bro.
8 May 2008, 16:48 pm
#30 cane: Cane, they had two years to recover before the next overseas tour.
8 May 2008, 16:48 pm
i’ve come to the conclusion (with this being debated every year) that the only way to play it fair is for one country at a time to host the whole tournament, which doesnt work financially. The only alternate is to get Argentina into the mix, then the spread is fairer. I think the latter will happen when the Sanzar tv contracts are up in another year or two.
8 May 2008, 16:48 pm
#152 asha1: Excellent point Asha but does it make up for the rest, not sure.
8 May 2008, 16:50 pm
#154 katman: He he, then you have a bro holding your moobies…. Doesn`t sound right, unless your Jaco Engels.
8 May 2008, 16:51 pm
Dr Hoendergatvreter I mean veer. Hell you gotta love some of the names on this site !!
8 May 2008, 16:53 pm
#149 sglazer:
We we must just hope the Crusaders do not also join the league in Europe. Seeing that they are beating our teams regularly in SA and New Zeeland they will surely also beat them in England or anywhere else.
And then we must find another excuse!
8 May 2008, 16:53 pm
#159 4man:
Pssst, 4man.
I weel say zees only wunce…I am WPTID, incognito naturellement!
8 May 2008, 16:54 pm
#159 4man: Ja nee 4man, I always laugh when I see “Snake want to bite me.. no, no….” Classic….
8 May 2008, 16:59 pm
#81 Harlequin: I agree with your coaching point. Wouldn’t it be great if SARU sorted itself out and we could have Heyneke, Jake and Nick coaching, with assistance where needed to augment our weaknesses (a-la Eddy Jones)?!
The highveldt point is not relevant though. The SA teams play on the South Island, for example. These things even out. Playing in different conditions is part of the challenge.
It makes no sense to burden one country in a competition with a greater travel. This goes against the basic principle of having level playing fields, to establish which are the best team at the end, and to create positive competition, where each team is raising the bar so that all get stronger.
An accurate reflection of reality is not an excuse.
8 May 2008, 17:01 pm
Good evening, all.
8 May 2008, 17:01 pm
#160 Robzim: Funny! An accurate reflection of reality is not an excuse though. It’s delusional and counter-productive to ignore the reality.
8 May 2008, 17:02 pm
#164 Mustapha ****: Good evening Mr ****
8 May 2008, 17:06 pm
#161 Dr Hoendergatveer:
got you.
watch out for noms de plume marlinspike and carcharodon carcharias
8 May 2008, 17:07 pm
#81 Harlequin: I agree with your coaching point. Wouldn’t it be great if SARU sorted itself out and we could have Heyneke, Jake and Nick coaching, with assistance where needed to augment our weaknesses (a-la Eddy Jones)?!
The highveldt point is not relevant though. The SA teams play on the South Island, for example. These things even out. Playing in different conditions is part of the challenge.
It makes no sense to burden one country in a competition with a greater travel itinerary. This goes against the basic principle of having level playing fields, to establish which are the best teams at the end, and to create positive competition, where each team is raising the bar so that all get stronger.
An accurate reflection of reality is not an excuse.
8 May 2008, 17:08 pm
#164 Mustapha ****:
I like one now and then myself…….the names the names
8 May 2008, 17:10 pm
i wanne be a rugby player to and complain about touring…
sheit i ahte going to bells beach and magaret river and the likes, but i try cope…
8 May 2008, 17:11 pm
musthaveahapakunt me self… siesa…
8 May 2008, 17:14 pm
#170 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
remember its just the journo complaining…not the players. But it is a bit like work, you go toexotic places and dont get to see much, because you’re too busy. Thats why personally I have never been one for bosberaads, when its time to work do it in an office in the middle of the city, when you go to the bush go for leisure.
8 May 2008, 17:16 pm
PIETMAN
Are you out there?
8 May 2008, 17:17 pm
Cheers guys, have a great evening.
8 May 2008, 17:17 pm
mate, the sharks and stormers have just had plent fun over there… read their tour diaries, they surf more than me, and play tenpin bowling, golf and all that tuff stuff…
agree it is not the players complaining… i was at a party with bismark jannie henno johan and ruan b4 they left and they were all amped and happy to go touring and have a jol… maybe they forgot there was a bit of ruggas to be played as well ha ha…
8 May 2008, 17:19 pm
#175 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
Ja you could be right, that could be the real problem. Nevertheless it always seems you are better at your job at home.
have you ever surfed in Oz?
Lots of good beach breaks, particularly up the Brisbane area.
8 May 2008, 17:20 pm
They should run a rugby team like the Royal Navy ran its ships.
Rum, sodomy and the lash.
8 May 2008, 17:21 pm
Oops, my comment is awaiting moderation.
8 May 2008, 17:32 pm
#165 sglazer:
Hi Glazer,
You say: “An accurate reflection of reality is not an excuse though. It’s delusional and counter-productive to ignore the reality”.
It sounds fair but you must also remember the following as said by Paul Watzlawick:
“The belief that one’s own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions”
8 May 2008, 17:34 pm
4man… yip, love Magaret River!
Bells and a little spot called Byron Bay is also awesome…
you from ozzie?
8 May 2008, 17:35 pm
deep stuff mr mugabe #178…
what about inflation?
8 May 2008, 17:40 pm
#178 Robzim: I agree. That is dangerous, very lonely too.
8 May 2008, 17:44 pm
#180 crikey_mate_did you see that shark: ,
Now that is a difficult one. I will first have to consult an economist!
8 May 2008, 17:45 pm
#179 crikey_mate_did you see that shark:
No, I’m a Durban boy, born and bred. Had lots of Aussie mates when a number of lifeguards worked in SA in the 70′s, the Rand was very strong then. Those friendships have endured and even though I stopped doing lifeguard comps after the world champs in 1996, I still maintain the contacts. Lots of the guys want me to come over for a protracted period, but its all about work and time, also when it comes to holidays we pretty much enjoy certain places. if I want good surf, theres enough of it in Natal, but I have done spots in the USA and Oz. I spend most my leisure time shooting in SA or kicking back in Croatia in the Adriatic where there is some interesting diving.
I assumed you’re a Durban boy as you appear to like the Sharks?
8 May 2008, 17:52 pm
4man…out
8 May 2008, 17:57 pm
i am a durban boytjie thru and thru…
love westbrook, nort beach, snake park whent its cooking, even surfed Richard’s Bay when the storms came thru… i love natal, but i must admit those aussie spots wasnt that bad, for aussie that is offcourse… no dungeons or jbay or natal coast, but oooookay… he he
did lifesaving myself, as long as it was in the ocean he he…
ciao 4-man
8 May 2008, 18:57 pm
I have a simple solution. All the teams play in one country every year on a rotating basis. Basically, turn it into a ‘World Cup’ for clubs.
There should be 1 team made up of all the Pacific island teams that is run as clubs.
Argentina should have 2 teams or it will be like playing Argentina in a different jersey, which doesn’t seem right. They should be playing in an expanded Tri Nations.
The 2 best Japanese clubs.
Also, 2 teams from America.
The existing S14 countries can keep their franchises. The weaker ones will provide a level of competition for the new teams.
I would even like to see the Northern Hemisphere clubs dumping some of their smaller competitions and making time available to send their top teams.
If such a tournmanent didn’t create interest in rugby all over the world, I don’t know what will.
8 May 2008, 19:52 pm
No, the old “travel disadvantage” is NOT a fact and it IS a gripe.
8 May 2008, 19:57 pm
Could New Zealand’s success in the S14 and TriNations tournaments that favor them from a travel perspective be the cause of their overconfident approach to the rugby worldcup with the usual disastrous result?
8 May 2008, 20:07 pm
#87 superba: And when ANY team is finished with their tour, they fly home in the opposite direction. So if you have “good” jetlag flying outward, you’ll have the “bad” jetlag flying homeward, and vice versa. Besides, you’re fully over the jetlag in one week, and the bad hidings don’t come in Week 1; they come equally spread across the period on tour. After Week 1 of the tour, it’s not jetlag to blame — it’s homesickness. And these pro footballers just need to harden up mentally and quit being the little mommy’s-boys and crybabies you’re breeding in SA. And to stop bleating about their — boo hooo — “travel disadvantage” (aided and abetted by Keo).
8 May 2008, 20:51 pm
#189 TheTackler: Guess what – the mommy’s-boys and crybabies are the world champions!!
For you it is 4 more years boet!
8 May 2008, 22:14 pm
#24 Ed_the_Lion: Say what, in your numbnuts
8 May 2008, 22:30 pm
What your saying Keo, is that South Africa hasnt had a say for the last 13 years in the Super 12-14 and the results are the reason, what a bunch of ****. You have 200,000 registered senior men rugby players and NZ has 30,000 and Aussies I think have 40,000 to pick from if you cannot create depth then there is something wrong with your rugby system, mate its a tournament that South Africans are not very good at its just like for NZ and the Rugby World Cup is not good for them and we come up with excuses that are fact as well just like you have for the South Africans do your numbers mate South Africa has bigger depth then both countries put together and your concerned by a couple of weeks no this is just rubbish.
8 May 2008, 22:31 pm
#189 TheTackler: What nonsense!
8 May 2008, 22:51 pm
this is an old issue, and at the end of the day saru must take the blame for not having the balls to insist that NZ and Aus teams play consecutive away games to compensate. i raised this issue in an email to saru as far back as 2001. the response then was that the scheduling guys had suggested iot, and NZ and Aus had stood together and refused, saying it was unnecessary, and the aussies especially sited the fact that if their teams played 4 or 5 consecutive away games then by the time the teams got home again the local fans would have lost interest in the competition and they would battle to fill their stadiums.
saru apparently has not fought hard enough – because there is no reason why the shedules cannot be evened out.
it would be easy enough to ensure that NZ teams played an aussie team on the way to SA, and another one on the way back. likewise for the aussies. a quick trip to NZ, followed by a flight to SA, and back home via NZ again would remove that issue. of course the fact there is an even number of teams in the tournament instead of an odd number means that half the teams will play one more game away than the other half. the sharks 5 matches away is what has almost killed their semi aspirations – and yet it may well take only 2 weeks in SA for the waratahs to fall out of contention.
the thing is this issue has been discussed to death. it is time someone took the lead and sorted it out.
8 May 2008, 22:57 pm
#192 marvinb:
Correct its all hogwash smokescreen excuses, and those wanting to pack up their toys and go play with the petty pommies and franky frogs should seriously think again, like giving up your heritage and sell it short to the nearest bidder, just to cut off your nose and spite your face in the process.
We are a SH rugby nation, have been since inception and if we too damn afraid or overawed or burdened to mix it with the hard nations of rugby union, (only found in the SH – Argentina, NZ, Aus, Pacific Islands), then we are not worth the heritage we so damn proud to uphold, just sell ourselves short because of couple extra weeks endeavors that most real rugby players would or should relish.
Go to the NH and lose it all, all the hard won, hard earned, hard edged, hard fought bravery, just give it all up due to some lily livered inadequacy to come to terms with some stretching the bounds of the envelope just a little.
8 May 2008, 22:59 pm
and this stupid fixation with europe is just silly. how on earth will we benefit from playing teams, who despite being in the same time zone are in a completely different hemisphere, enjoying completely different seasons? it is totally unworkable.
every time an SA team in a Euro/SA league plays an away game they will need to fly 12+ hours to europe, yet the euro teams will only travel that distance when playing an away game in SA. Add to the fact our home games would be played in summer, and we’d have to pop over and compete in the cold for away games. it makes no sense at all, and is in my opinion the stupidest idea ever. i’d rather my team suffer the travel burden and play in a southern hemisphere comp.
SA, NZ and Aus have dominated world rugby in professional times, with england enjoying a brief period of excellence and france always able to surpirse on the day, whilst wales has looked good only when both those teams have been poor.
we’d much rather be testing ourselves against southern hemisphere opponents than the **** dished up by those that compete in the 6N.
8 May 2008, 23:06 pm
Give up the whinging, get some programs in place to take this sport to the hungry masses, give them some entry into the heritage and realms of magnitude and stop shirking the call to bravery.
Franchises like Lions and Cheetahs and Bulls too for now better get off their soft soap satin cushions and learn about hard edged warrior factors again, if they spread too thin then amalgamate or call in reserves from the nurseries or the amassing cavalries, but get the game mobilized and forget about this chicken run attitude of turning tail and hightailing it to the NH, thats one direction to absolute oblivion, one way ticket to Nowheresville.
8 May 2008, 23:13 pm
Thats why we need to chuck in a couplel of Argie teams- let the sheepshaggers and shackledraggers do a couple more weeks of touring themselves…
8 May 2008, 23:16 pm
They should just shut up about the NH, the true litmus test is playing NZ and Aus, the rest are 2nd grade competition, we want to lower our standards then chicken out and be a big fish amongst little fishies, the only true test of character and ability is to compete and become successful in the S14 and 3N, just because our lack of ability or domination is shown up to be somewhat under baked should not encourage us to pack up shop and head for the laager, we should be girding up our loins and getting to the sharp end of the issues, rectify the shortcomings, increase the resolve and take the fight to the Southern warrior, else turn tail and become nincompoop second graders like our NH counterparts, who wants to be playing in a second grade competition when the real McCoy’s right here in front of us to test our wits against?
8 May 2008, 23:19 pm
We are reaching a cross roads for the premier competition in world rugby. NH money is trying to influence it towards the North. Pure quality players and skil levels are still holding top position in the south.
Whatever you do, SANZAR, DON’T BLINK NOW. Get the Argies in and make it a proper SH competition. Starve the european market of Argie and PI players – undermine their strong points, while holding steady on our own. and get a huge nation involved, like China/India/Japan for funding.
O’ Neill was right.
8 May 2008, 23:21 pm
Hear faking hear. About time our administrators showed the size of their gonads and fought for an even deal. Who brings in the most doe as a matter of interest?
8 May 2008, 23:23 pm
#187 Keen to swop for a few years to check out the theory?
8 May 2008, 23:24 pm
#201 whatever:
SA by a country mile. we also have the biggest crowds.
8 May 2008, 23:26 pm
F’ck the money it will drag the game to a level of overpaid soft glory boys doing shampoo and Gilette razor ads, the only option is keep it hard and close to the hard edged southern hemisphere grindstone where the real game is played and won or lost, they milking our nurseries and luring the natural genetic talent to go sell itself short up there, O’Niel is right, tell em to F’ off, gird our traditions and make this hemisphere strong and proud of its heritage.
The North know exactly how superior we are thats why they’re buying it up with their first world marketable money, if we sell it short and capitulate to market forces, the youthful raw energy will be dissipated within a couple generations, and poof, rugby union as we know it will be no more.
8 May 2008, 23:28 pm
The only way to equalize the travel would be to bring some Argie teams into the mix. The flight over the Atlantic to Argentina for SA teams is shorter than the flight over the Pacific for the Anzacs.
Or dump those cheaters from Down under anyway and have a trans-Atlantic competion with SA, Argentina, the 5 home unions and maybe North America.
8 May 2008, 23:32 pm
#204 skopskiet:
Fully agree, the defeatist attitude portrayed by Keo in his article and accepted by many people on this site, is very sad.
8 May 2008, 23:35 pm
Hey the Cheetas lost against the Stormers at Newlands, it is totally unfair as the Cheetas suffered from Jet lag
and what is this rubbish anyway about you should win your home games
8 May 2008, 23:39 pm
Shouldn’t you be asleep Robzim, like me, shouldn’t be wandering around these hallways of analogy this late hour of the day (night). Glad we on the same page wrt this and other issues tho.
8 May 2008, 23:40 pm
the 8 points we missing each super season is because of our teams very slow starts, basically stemming from the lack of preseason games, and the length of time our guys train together before super season kickoff.
my example is the stormers. squad is only decided in january. couple of preseason games. combinations are not settled or tested at all. the result is the sh1te performance for the first 3 or 4 rounds of the competition.
the teams should be ready from day 1, not looking to fire come week 5.
some might say that its tactics and management preparing the team so that they can last the long tournament for the 16 required weeks.
i dont buy the whinging about tour length. like someone above said, the long tour only prepares our guys for the lengthy tours that come with winning World Cups. you have to take the positives out of it.
catching up with stormers players when they were here in auckland. none of those i spoke to said the tour was too long. the tour is a great chance to go and have change of scenery. its part and parcel of pro rugby.
8 May 2008, 23:49 pm
Yeah Tomsta thats all very well but stats show that home games are won more than away games. 5 aways games and a few losses, it season over. It can never be fair mate
8 May 2008, 23:55 pm
No SA teams should win all home games, by the way when last did the Boks do well on an end of year tour
9 May 2008, 00:01 am
#209 Tomsta:
tomsta – the tour is not too long so long as you’re winning, as the stormers were this year; but if you are losing on tour it would be great to able to go home after 2 weeks and regroup. instead of having to soldier on on a hiding to nothing.
if the schedules were fair then why are NZ and Aus so against adopting similar travel schedules? do they think they are too soft and that only the south africans can manage it? what are they so afraid of?
9 May 2008, 00:09 am
#204 skopskiet: plus 195,197,199 etc.
Please, with all due respect, get of your misplaced soapbox now. Not a single point you are ranting about(and some of them not even factual) is vaguely pertinent to the fact that SA teams are at a huge physiological and psychological disadvantage(as alluded to in the article) in this competition and that is why it has taken so long to have a winning team and yet only when the NZers had removed their 22 best for more than half the competition.
Does the name Webb Ellis ring a bell? Does that Ennnglish town of Rugby ring a bell? Does the very first tour by Britsh teams to the first world test venues of The Crusader Ground(St. George’s Park) and Newlands fit in to you rugby history? So don’t even whisper the word heritage when it comes to rugby.
And please remind me what was not hard fought, hard earned, hard edged and brave about the most victorious 1971 and esp. 1974 British Lions and ’95/’96 England team(in SA) and the late ’90s(’98/’99 Br.Lions) agin in SA? And I have not yet mentioned the French who always seem to teach SA a rugby lesson more now than again.
Have you forgotten that the Aussies are really jonny come lately i.e. since late ’80s (Ella bothers advent) when it came to a demanding test series in Aus. or SA? Have you now realised you soapbox is rickety?
9 May 2008, 00:15 am
#196 munkiboi</a etc.
Are vou sure about the point you really want to make because you are contradicting your self in your different posts. Or are you just jumping on the Skoppie (yes master) bandwagon?
9 May 2008, 00:19 am
#212 munkiboi:
nz prob not keen to adopt long tours as that means not as many home games.
as you prob heard there is lots of chat around nz about rugby losing its following in a massive way. (keo write something on this topic).
the nzru prob cant afford sending their teams on 5 week tours. having empty stadiums like last year have really brought to light how rubbish the following of rugby is in nz. its a complex thing. as you say winning teams will draw crowds. thanks to henry and his men, and in a way to nuci. there is not much interest around auckland for going to games or watching them on tv.
to answer your questions. dont think its a psyche thing for nz teams to tour sa. they love the women, they love the weather, they love the change of scenery.
9 May 2008, 00:20 am
So you prefer to sell out and go join your European paymasters sounds like to me ET
Johnny come lately Aussies or 74 successful Br Lions is consigned to history books for now, we are talking current migration of rugby talent, and it still rests emphatically more hard edged down south than up north, until we sell out that is and give them the cherry with the cake.
9 May 2008, 00:23 am
#210 whatever:
fair is what you make of it.
half empty or half full?
sure looking at it, the sa teams have longer tours. the teams that are prepared for the tour tend to do alright.
9 May 2008, 00:29 am
12:24 am, not the time to enter or debate superfluous yes sir no sir three bags full type arguments for the sake of prodigious intellectual bragging rights
Another time or place for such astutely accurate or inaccurate prognosis of where the ebbs and flows of rugby’s supremacy rests or hastens to.
9 May 2008, 00:30 am
#216 skopskiet:
Does your heritage not consider all your rugby past everywhere, whether it is good or bad? Or just the seemingly recent not that good but which gives us loads of arrogance because we associate with the mighty All Blacks and the now not so hot Wallabies?
9 May 2008, 00:39 am
#216 skopskiet:
More than 98% of my posts on this on this thread dealt only with the sport science component of this matter. And I added that the only way for balance/equilibration to the inflexible and bullying Australasians(they are ganging up against us(66% to 33%) was to play in your time zone for purely physiological reasons.
Can you suggest any other reason why the WPStomers have consistently been the best SA region even when the pathetic KvdM was there? My advance is simply because of Noake’s Sport Science Dept.
9 May 2008, 00:40 am
#214 ET:
Skop rants incoherrantly at times – and is self indulgent with his attempts at being somehwat poetic.
what i am saying is – i believe we are disadvantaged by the way the shedules are done – proof is what happened to the waratahs a few seasons ago when faced with 4 on the road in a row – they lost, and their media had a field day claiming the travel was ludicrous coz the other aussie teams didn’t have to do it…
but to suggest we go and join a euro league is just plain dumb. we are playing with the right countries in the right competition – it just needs a wee bit of tweaking.
no contradiction.
9 May 2008, 00:42 am
#220 ET:
should read “best region away from home etc.”
9 May 2008, 00:44 am
#219 ET:
Do you consider the Southern hemisphere or Northern hemisphere teams to be currently and consistently the best? If you perhaps consider the Southern hemisphere teams to be the best, don’t you think it will be better to compete with them even if it means you might have some disadvantages as far as the travelling schedule is concerned.
As far as the history is concerned I think South Africa and New Zeeland have by far the best win/loss ratios of all the rugby playing nations.
9 May 2008, 00:45 am
#219 ET:
It has accurately or inaccurately largely remained an SA/NZ standoff till late 80′s as to who donned the unofficial world crown of Rugby Union Football, though it originated in England and was adopted and mastered by Wales for a period and cherished and expounded on by the flair full Gauls through the 60′s and through the past 5 decades, and as you correctly insisted was mastered by more than one combined British Lions touring team in 71 and 74.
However over the duration of our association with this most English of sporting codes, in recent times, SA, NZ and Australia have dominated to a greater extent than their northern counterparts, the progress and development and physical attributes associated with the scope of the evolving sport of rugby. notwithstanding the fact that England, France and Ireland in recent times and again recently a resurgence in Welsh rugby (through the influence of NZ coaching acumen) has also enjoyed some hard won success.
Nevertheless, there has been a muted call for us to sever our ties with our SH brethren and cajole up to the NH participants, where I strongly believe we will in so doing lose every vestige of our Southern hard edged heritage that we fought long and hard to engender.
9 May 2008, 00:48 am
#221 munkiboi:
So coherently or incoherently, whichever way you prefer to say it, poetically or plainly, we’re actually more or less saying precisely the same thing.
9 May 2008, 00:49 am
#221 munkiboi:
Read my post #220 it refers to’ balance’ the disparate science imbalances we have to go through every S14 season but they like the historical Waratahs cannot do it. Does this not prove they know they have and demand/bully us for a highly favourable situation?
9 May 2008, 00:51 am
Jsis, it is getting late. Good night Skop and everyone else.
9 May 2008, 00:55 am
If all the matches were held in one country each year on a rotational basis, one country’s teams would have home advantage, and everyone else would be in the same boat.
Yes, stadiums in countries not hosting the S? in that year would lose out, but judging by the attendance at franchises like the Lions, I can’t see that making a huge difference. The money is in the TV coverage, and once every 3 years, the hosting countries unions and their local economies would receive a huge boost with such a massive influx of teams and their supporters.
The fans would be happy, because as the World Cup proved, surprizes are always possible in this sort of competition, and therefore there will be fewer tumbleweed fixtures.
The TV people would be happy because it would be an event, which would have much more atmosphere than a series of matches strung out over a month.
The players would be happy because they could get settled in and the effect of travel would be taken out of the discussion of results.
Countries like Argentina, the Pacific Islands, Japan, Canada and the USA could send a couple of clubs each, which would help grow the game. Under the current arranglements the travel implications would be ridiculous. In the case of the Pacific Islands, there pool of talent would help them compete. In the case of the USA and Japan, their financial clout would help them buy the players they needed to put up a fight.
Long term, such a competition could be the cornerstone of a global season and include the Northern Hemisphere, which would help reduce the number of matches players are playing in irrelevant minor competitions, particularly in Europe.
Basically, it would be the IPL for rugby, without forcing all the players in the world to join a franchise from one particular country.
The whole thing could also be set up with limits on overseas players so that the Southern Hemisphere wouldn’t be disadvantaged and could keep at least some of their best players, and countries like Argentina, Samoa, etc… could get some of their players back.
It wouldn’t be in competition with the World Cup, anymore than the Champions League in football is in competition with the World Cup in football.
It’s a dream I know, but the IPL is working, why not this?
9 May 2008, 00:58 am
Stick with the Aussies and AB’s thats where the latent talent pool strength lies for now, and with the Pacific Islanders and Argentinians to lesser or greater degrees,
The NH may have similar time zones but totally opposed climatic conditions and structures.
SH rugby is a different type animal to its NH cousin, rather play the uncompromising hard edged SH derivative than the more sophisticated yet I believe less demanding code of European rugby. Thats why its mainly SA, NZ and Aus and Argie players that are bolstering the English and French clubs to the extent that we do.
9 May 2008, 01:00 am
USA rugby does not have any finacial clout in the US or anywhere sorry to tell you this
.
One way is to maybe give SA teams an extra bonus point for winning in OZ?NZ
9 May 2008, 01:00 am
Yeah its late Robzim, I’m also signing out
So long
9 May 2008, 01:00 am
Sorry, should be financial
9 May 2008, 01:03 am
CoachPete
The USA is a rich place. They invest where there is money to be made. Basketball was a minor sport there, and very quickly became a major sport. If these rich sport franchise owners see the sport growing, they will take out their cheque books.
9 May 2008, 01:05 am
#224 skopskiet:
AH NOW YOUR COBWEBS OF HISTORY/HERITAGE HAVE BEEN SHAKEN/
‘Unofficial’ is merely that, not official. Meaning no acceptable criteria was employed in this measurement, thus unscientific or non-statistical.
Then again what criteria is used for acceptable ‘dominated by etc.? Is it WCs or what? NZ have won it only once and not again in 20 years and counting to at least 22,23,24. But England also won it only once but were the last finalists with SA.
Simply what are you measuring, what is your yardstick. I can put forward an argument that even the present WC system does not necessarily give us the best rugby playing nation. Abberations can and have occurred in its short history would you not say?
9 May 2008, 01:06 am
I have lived in USA for 20 years after moving from SA, and been involved in USA rugby at all levels mainly coaching, and although its a rich country there is no money in rugby. It cant even get coverage on cable here except Setanta sports Lacrosse gets more coverage.
Plus big TV networks dont want rugby as a big sport here because there are no time outs therefore no money from ads.
9 May 2008, 01:19 am
Ah Keo, you are truly a great stirrer ! I’m quite sure if your SA teams were good enough to win more often, we would not hear a squeak out of you and your countrymen.
And just to put in the facts…..the actual travel miles both outwards and inwards are almost identical. The only real difference is that you stay in one of our class hotels for just 1 week longer than we do in your hotels.
9 May 2008, 01:33 am
“Plus big TV networks dont want rugby as a big sport here because there are no time outs therefore no money from ads.” CoachPete
Then why are guys like Gilette, Hicks and the Glazers buying soccer clubs? There are no timeouts in soccer either.
The reason is that soccer is a global game with alot of money in it, and they want some of that action.
If rugby built up its profile with spectacles like the IPL in cricket, they would start to get interested.
I’m not saying it will happen tomorrow. It all depends on the IRB getting a vision that will appeal to this kind of investor.
The popularity of American football proves that they have a taste for full contact sport. I think if rugby was presented in a more spectacular way, ie. as a large tournament with American interest, they might find that they like a faster moving full contact sport where they can take on the world rather than just play against themselves, which is mostly what they do in their other major sports.
9 May 2008, 01:33 am
quick question. is a week in hamilton as bad as a week in kimberly?
9 May 2008, 01:39 am
Soccer is a thousand times bigger sport including the millions of kids soccer players in USA . The networks dont have too much time for soccer but show it because of the demand. There is zero demand for rugby so its not exposed.
Rugby needs to grow in USA from the kids in school, but even that is difficult since they have cut schools programs, plus the big three sports in schools dont like their players playing rugby.
American football is big yes but after school and college such a smal percentage continue . NFL Football is basically there for the sponsors, and the players salaries are paid by us buying coke and ford.
Jake beleive me I would love to see rugby grow here.
9 May 2008, 01:40 am
Also kids love rugby here but dont understand the rules, mainly because they not exposed to the sport. So they move on or back to US sports
9 May 2008, 01:42 am
If a wealthy person in USA could have an option of paying a percentage to be a part owner in a US Pro sports team or being a owner in a US super 16 team lets say, 100% he would go with the US pro team
9 May 2008, 01:43 am
Ok enough talking to myself.
9 May 2008, 01:48 am
If travelling away from home for 4 or 5 weeks is such a problem, how come the Boks have won Test Series in NZ when tours used to go for 15 or 20 weeks? I think its a mental thing, and your boys are just to soft – they miss their tannie, pap & koeksisters too much.
It’s bullshit about the travel – ‘crossing backwards and forwards over the Tasman Ocean between NZ & OZ is nothing – its a 3 hr flight. NZ is closer to the East Coast of OZ than Perth is in any case. Being away as a “Team” should make a group tighter and more cohesive – it should give them an advantage (if managed right).
Modern sports and nutrition science has also allowed people to manage the effects of travel much more effectively anyway.
SA Teams have an equivalent advantage supposedly – with the difference in altitude between the Coast and the Veldt. Playing at 6000′ is not something you can easily replicate! (Not that you’d know it with the performances of the Lions, Bulls, & Cheetahs this year!!.
Stop making excuses, and ‘harden up’ boys!
9 May 2008, 01:50 am
Tomsta,
I think the local wahines are more willing in Hamilton
9 May 2008, 01:51 am
I don’t doubt you what you’re saying CoachPete. You’ve obviously thought alot about this.
The key is obviously that rugby has to grow, and then as you say, the networks will concede to the demand.
Its great to hear the kids like it and that gives me hope, that if the IRB can get its act together, there is a potential appetite that could cause it to grow. In a way its not surprizing considering that American Football was, once upon a time, pretty similar to rugby, and look how big that game has become.
It’s not only a rich country, it’s also a big country, and it could make a huge difference to the long term future of the sport.
9 May 2008, 01:57 am
Thats ok Jake . Hey I have to personally coach my son because there is no team for him locally. When kids get into the game here they love it , and embrace it with the same passion as all rugby players.
USA needs the exposure . They have the numbers, just need to draw from the really skilled kids.
They also need to change the structure of the clubs and regional mens rugby, to something similar to Currie cup or NPC, but that too is hard. The distances are big here and even as a rich country, air fares are expensive to rugby players too.
9 May 2008, 02:01 am
Thanks coach. It’s been intereresting, but I’ve got some work to do, so I better get back to it. Goodnight.
9 May 2008, 02:02 am
Cheers
9 May 2008, 02:22 am
#225 skopskiet:
yes skop – on this occasion we agree wholeheartedly.
9 May 2008, 04:26 am
#220 ET: The Stormers “consistently the best” from SA? What on earth have you been smoking? They’ve never even been in a final! They’re consistently a mid-table mediocre side. But they DO win a few on the road. That’s because they enjoy touring rather than see it as an ordeal somewhat like travelling to Mars where everyone speaks a foreign language like English.
The Afrikanerboy teams from inland just get chicken-hearted and draw in a laager of fear and panic as soon as the plane leaves your OR Tambo Aerodrome.
It’s not a travel disadvantage. It’s a phobic mental handicap. Send them off in a fuzzy haze of Prozac to fight off their recurring nighmare demons of heading overseas for yet more snottings.
Bunch of whiny cry-babies, if you ask me. Not hard enough to hack it with the Anzacs in their own backyards.
9 May 2008, 04:42 am
#221 munkiboi: I don’t agree that holding our position in the center of the rugby world, which geographically includes Europe, is stupid. That’s a harsh response.
Joining with Europe may not work, because of the seasons. But holding our center and ensuring level playing fields should be the overriding principles. We have lost the plot and paid a big price by sacrificing these age-old principles. We are sacrificing ourselves year-in-year out. At some point, not recognizing this, becomes stupid.
I do agree that making changes to the existing competition could work as well. It may be better.
9 May 2008, 04:44 am
Keo’s enjoyed his recent few weeks in France, and just wants more excuses to go back there. What’s the SA tax system like – presumably if its work-related, the travel expense is tax deductable? Keo wants the Tax Man to pay some of his holiday bills!!
9 May 2008, 04:47 am
#228 Jake: I like this idea. I think it could work. It’s a paradigm shift.
We must not sell ourselves short again, out of hubris. Essentially, I think this was SARU’s mindset when it was a party to creating the Super 10.
9 May 2008, 05:20 am
#251 sglazer:
Europe may be similar time zones to SA, but it is still an overnight flight away. We will not avoid the travel burden given that we are relatively isolated unless we enter into a comp with zim and namibia.
I am one of those devil you know versus devil you dont kind of people, and joining the Heineken Cup for example would not be viable in my opinion. Our travel burden would be worse – and it would be mroe costly. currently we have 5/16 teams. In a euro league we could potentially have to play: 4 from england, 4 from france, 3 from wales, 2 from ireland, one from scotland, one from italy? assuming we still had 5 teams that would be 5/20 teams in the comp.
assuming that it is split into 4 pools of 5 – top 2 from each pool progressing to the QF. Home and away against each team in your group – so 8 games. an sa team would (assuming no other SA team in their pool) play 4 games in SA and have to travel to europe for 4 games. their opponents would play 7 games in europe and 1 in SA.
Now how on earth does that make for a level playing field…??
9 May 2008, 05:40 am
#254 Good analysis munki
The grass is not always greener on the other side
(in fact, its often mud up North, and not grass at all!).
Keo and some of his acolytes on this site should think things through more clearly. If they want to win more, perhaps address the management and coaching side of things. Bring those up to a more professional level, so that the SA teams are better prepared for the early part of the system (and are better supported by a cohesive central rugby body – rather than the rag-tad operators that seem to have run the joint for the past few years.
9 May 2008, 05:41 am
rag-tad = rag-tag (oops)
9 May 2008, 05:47 am
sglaser @ 253
Speaking of “hubris” – what makes you think that the “North” actually WANT SA teams playing there anyway. How many teams do you think that they would let in to their Comp? Would they drop other teams to field some SA teams?
You may end up supporting only 1 or 2 teams – the Coast (Sharks, Stormers, Spears) and the Veldt (everything above 5000′!!). Certainly not the 5 you have now.
9 May 2008, 05:52 am
#254 munkiboi: Time zones are the main variable when it comes to travel.
9 May 2008, 05:56 am
#257 BillTong: We need to explore it, at least, with the central guiding principle being level playing fields.
9 May 2008, 06:01 am
#250 TheTackler: This is bigotry at its worst. Bigotry creates a small mind.
9 May 2008, 06:10 am
#260 sglazer: Bull. It’s the truth. Deal with it, crybaby.
9 May 2008, 06:41 am
#261 TheTackler: The Afrikanerboy teams from inland … . That’s bigotry.
9 May 2008, 06:43 am
sglazer – forget it, you’ll never win. Tackler is beyond redemption – move on with your life.
9 May 2008, 06:44 am
#261 TheTackler: “Deal with it crybaby”. That’s domineering and demeaning. Contracting energies that weaken the mind.
9 May 2008, 06:59 am
#263 BillTong: Thanks
9 May 2008, 07:00 am
#262 sglazer: They’re Afrikaners. Is this demeaning? They’re from inland. Is this demeaning? So, what’s possibly demeaning about calling an Afrikanerboys from inland “Afrikanerboys from inland”?
Also, they totally suck at rugby away from SA. Well, if I were one of their number I’d be embarrassed about this too.
So they’d better stop whining and griping about their so-called “travel disadvantage” and just harden up. Rugby’s not for sissies.
9 May 2008, 07:11 am
#266 TheTackler: Tackler, sometimes we’re blind to our own negativity. I have been more times than I want to remember.
The travel schedules are not even. This is fact. Simple arithmetic.
There are many scientific studies that show the effects of crossing time-zones on the mind and body. To illustrate the point, this has led to people with mental illnesses being strongly advised not to do it. This shows that there is good reason to have level playing fields in sport competitions taking place across time zones
9 May 2008, 07:20 am
#266 TheTackler: … otherwise, for the victors, victory is hollow. And for the supporters, delusional, a pretense.
9 May 2008, 08:02 am
#23 tight head: The studies already exist. They’re in the medical journals, well known in medical circles.
9 May 2008, 08:26 am
Seems as we have become more sophisticated we have in turn become more in tune with our weaknesses, traveling across time zones in years gone by never raised any issues, now that we have measuring tools to determine how this affects or mental, physical and psychological well being it has become a convenient excuse.
Whats the fuss about, we have to play more away games than they do, so perhaps its a little lop sided in terms of its structure, a logistical issue, but to start with sports science institutes and the like demeaning the nature of the competition sounds more like whining and excuse finding to me.
How about we toughen up and lift the bar in terms of our preparation and training, maybe restructure our own internal weakened structures and coaching techniques, once we start winning, sports science won’t have that many gripes to find fault with time zone travel.
Stormers lost their first 3 games at home, one against a team from NZ who had ‘travelled’ across time zones to whip both the SA adversaries, and once at altitude to boot, once Stormers got overseas they started winning, argument falls flat on its face imo.
9 May 2008, 08:31 am
#270 skopskiet: How can objective, scientific studies be excuses? This doesn’t make sense.
9 May 2008, 09:49 am
if there is any ‘science’ to this time travel stuff then the stormers are the team to consult, they bucked the trend and won on the road. only the sharks performance on the road supports the time travel theory. the rest of the sa teams were krap home and away.
9 May 2008, 10:48 am
272, Yes there is considerable science to this, Mongrel
Your daily sleep rhythm gets disrupted by east-west travel, especially travel East which unfortunately our teams do when they go to Oz and NZ
Its called jet lag because it became a recognised phenomenon only once people started travelling across time zones in jets. Before that your brain could adapt more to the slower forms of travel – one time zone per day is what the brain likes
So travel north south as Keo suggests (crossing at most 2 time zones) to play the 6N countries won’t have this added burden
9 May 2008, 11:51 am
ALL sides that travel East have to return home travelling West, and ALL sides going West have to return home going East. And ALL sides will play games on each side of their travel. So it balances out equally.
9 May 2008, 11:56 am
Aust and NZ teams visiting Cape Town have to deal with Stellenbosch and having their teams on the piss for a week
so whats the big deal – it all evens out in the end
9 May 2008, 12:04 pm
Keo
When the Aussie cricket side go to England for an 8 week tour, 5 Test matches and a bunch or One Dayers and warm up games how many matches / points are they behind at the start ??
9 May 2008, 16:05 pm
#274 TheTackler: It doesn’t work like that, Tackler.
9 May 2008, 16:10 pm
#274 TheTackler: That’s made-up logic, without reason. Refer to the medical journals on the subject. It is well documented.
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