Bok scrum expect AB onslaught
Springbok captain John Smit has highlighted the importance of outscrumming the All Blacks in the first Tri Nations Test in New Zealand.
It’s been a disappointing facet for the Boks, as they struggled in the first Test against Wales and then against a third-rate Italy front row. The man who lent them stability, BJ Botha, is not on tour while there is a possibility youngsters Brian Mujati and Beast Mtawarira could come up against Tony Woodcock and Greg Somerville.
Smit told Die Burger that this set-piece will present the most significant challenge of the 5 July fixture.
“The All Blacks have dominated their opponents in the scrums in every match they’ve played this season,” he said. “The All Blacks got the upper hand, despite England’s strong scrum. That’s a feather in their caps.”
The English didn’t provide much resistance for New Zealand, who scored comfortable victories in both of the two Tests. These were merely warm-ups for the upcoming clash against the World Champions.
“There are some Test matches that you know will be hard,” Smit said. “The All Blacks in New Zealand is one of those in which the physical aspect is non-negotiable.
“If you don’t stand up in that respect, you’re going to be on the back foot from the outset. We must not let ourselves down from a physical viewpoint.”
Smit said the absence of All Blacks captain of Richie McCaw won’t debilitate the hosts.
“The All Blacks would, of course, have liked Richie to be part of their team but there is no such thing as a weak All Blacks team. And they’re playing at home, which is a huge factor.”
The Bok captain also denounced the new laws. Saturday will be the first time he plays under the ELVs having spent the European season with French club Clermont.
“They never tried to reinvent the wheel before, so why do it now. There was nothing wrong with the old laws, and you couldn’t find an empty seat in stadiums in France.”
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:46 am
did anyone watch the ‘97 boks vs scotland game last night on ESPNC
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:47 am
#44 JL1:
ok, but why did John have to use his influence? surely the coach would’ve thought he was good enough
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:48 am
#46 Johnny T:
No it wouldnt hurt, at all. But I’ve watched Gary Gold coach the scrum, from 2 metres away, and trust me he knows what he’s doing
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:48 am
PDV has already sellected his 28 man squad(Few surprises JP, Ndugane and no BJ). He is going to be facing the AB’s Three times in the space of a few weeks. The team he selects for this weekend could determine the outcome of these games. If we lose the first we could possibly lose the second and maybe the third. But if we win the first we are going all the way to Tri-NAtions glory.
Of the players he has to choose from, these should start in my opinion.
15 Monty
14 Jantjies
13 JDV
12 Steyn
11 Habannnnnnnnnnnnnnna (sorry to fast)
10 Butch
9 Januarie
8 Pienaar
7 Smith
6 Burger
5 Botha
4 Matfield
3 CJ
2 Smit
1 Guthro
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:48 am
#47 JL1:
I’m in SA mate
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:49 am
#45 Richie_7: You think ?What happend to the Stormers in the last 4 weeks?
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:50 am
#54 WPjoulekkerding:
I agree 100% with your team… except for Pienaar at 8!!! Surely a typo?
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:51 am
#35 Dazzler: The problem is that you never know which CJ you are going to get – he is not exactly what you would call consistent. In some games he is a monster in the scrums while in others he completely gets his *** kicked.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:51 am
Nothing new wrt tighthead props in SA. We are short of them, and so are the rest of the world. Thes guys will be and are already being paid mega bucks to play for teams. Read this from one year ago just before the RWC from SA Rugby
Jake White considered forgotten Springbok Faan Rautenbach for inclusion in his Tri-Nations squad as he looks at tighthead options ahead of the World Cup. Rautenbach would have been in line for a shock recall – along with Saracens prop Cobus Visagie – were he not currently recovering from injury.
The 31-year-old prop currently plays for London Irish in the Guinness Premiership.
“Faan was considered for the team but he has not recovered from an injury,” White told the press on Wednesday.
White hinted that he may include Rautenbach in Springbok preparations for the World Cup as he looks to bolter his scrum options. The Boks have BJ Botha and CJ van der Linde as specialist tightheads while Deon Carstens and Eddie Andrews can fulfil a makeshift role on the tighthead side.
With Gurthro Steenkamp and Os du Randt tipped to make the World Cup squad – and with CJ van der Linde able to play both sides of the scrum – White will have tough decisions to make as to the identity of his fifth propping option in his 30-man squad.
Rautenbach last played for the Springboks in 2004 and has played 14 Tests.
“I’ll probably bring Faan into the preliminary squad for the World Cup and may give him an opportunity to play against Namibia,” White told reporters on Wednesday.
Despite unconvincing scrummaging performances in the opening five Tests of 2007 White denied having concerns over the strength of his pack.
“I am not concerned about our scrumming, especially not after the Test in Durban.
“What everyone should understand, is the value of good tighthead forwards. Just look how much Carl Hayman will be paid to play in the northern hemisphere.
“One can never have enough good tighthead props. We now have CJ van der Linde and BJ Botha, but there is a large gap between them and Jannie du Plessis. And I’m not talking about Jannie’s abilities but about his inexperience.
“Therefore it is a great bonus to have players such as Visagie and Rautenbach. There is no reason for us not to look at such experienced players in that position.” White said.
Eddie Andrews, Jannie du Plessis, Cobus Visagie and CJ van der Linde are all included in the tour of Australia and New Zealand.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:52 am
That’s true , no such thing as a weak all blacks team. Sure we can win this game , aslong as we have the right players on the field and we don’t get any yellow cards.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:52 am
#54 WPjoulekkerding:
The reality is that once he has his 15 down on paper, he will have to ask himself whether they truly represent the colour mix that he has promised the ANC.
As long as he has to make up numbers to please the politicians his job will always be impossible.
Let’s see who the starting 15 are tomorrow.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:53 am
#53 Dazzler: True, Heyneke was also an excelent scrum coach, but I still think you had to be in there (the scrum) to know exactly whats going on. Os was in there for 80 odd Tests.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:54 am
#45 Richie_7: Sure you’re thinking about rugby and not netball. Pushing oppononents scrums around will definitely win you games
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:55 am
#59 JL1:
“Despite unconvincing scrummaging performances in the opening five Tests of 2007 White denied having concerns over the strength of his pack. ”
that is what I’ve often said, BJ has battled in international scrumming for a while, but Jake was in denial.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:56 am
#52 Dazzler: I have to admit that these positions are mostly unkown to a lot of coaches and refs
If you are a winger you can stand out, at lock you can stand out but at prop you can do a lot of short charges, support players, clean out rucks etc etc. The little nuances of the srumming is usually an unseen thing and therefore you need to actually speak to players around these players. This is also how a lot of players build up respect from other players and also how the urban myths/truths develop about who is the strongest in the scrum
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
#59 JL1:
Interestingly, I read that book ‘Nick & I’ (I know its very old) yesterday, but he says, the problem with South African Rugby, is that we have too many players and it is to easy to drop someone rather than develop them. I think the boks should get guys like Kempson and Visagie, mayby even Pieter de Villiers (the French one) to come and coach our props. They also weren’t huge, but had good techniqe.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:57 am
#56 Johnny T:
Did they make the semi’s?
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:58 am
#61 tight head:
A point few people remember when making their team sheets.
He has promised 7 players of colour, that’s a fact.
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:58 am
#64 Dazzler: Hey man I agree, BJ would also battle on any given day. We have lost a lot with Cobus Visagie, Daan Human and Faan Rautenbach leaving SA
One can never admit to a weak scrum though as the oppo will surely target that area then
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:58 am
Big problem for us Saturday is Guthro, he’s been well below par this season
July 2nd, 2008 at 8:59 am
#64 Dazzler:
There are 8 men in a scrum.
It has to be disciplined into the art of scrumming.
When the binding, timing, body positions, and other factors are executed properly then you have 8 men working as one.
This is achieved by hard work at the scrum machine and by playing the same 8 many times together in a match situation.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:00 am
#68 eight ball: He’s also promised to pick on merit. Bit like Zuma telling you what you want to hear. He’s blessed with agreat squad and when we win it will be despite his efforts rather than with them
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:00 am
#68 eight ball: Do you think that 7 players of colour deserve to be on the team on merit?
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:01 am
#67 Richie_7:
No but they started to fall out of contention and form when JD Moller was injured and Mujati had to switch sides. Otherwise they could’ve beaten the Warratahs instead of drawing, and gotten a bonus point against either the Lions or Highlanders. They then would’ve had a home semi.
silly arguement you’re trying to make, everyone who knows anything about rugby knows its won or lost up front
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
#67 Richie_7: Exactly, if they had a good scrum in the last 4 weeks, they may well have made it
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:03 am
I think SA will struggle to find a tighthead as good as Richard Bands.Never been srummed once in his life……….Cobus Visagie is also excellent.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:03 am
#66 Johnny T: I agree, we had Balie Swart who gained experience in NZ but that is about it, now Visagie has been appointed as part of the coaching team at Saracens it will be difficult to get him here.
We do need to stick with our props and develop them, I mean Australia had not choice in this matter and look at KFC Dunning (he is at least holding his own and he is not rated by many)
I also think that we are speculating about the performance of the Boks scrum on Saturday-let us see what the tight five as a unit can actually do
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:03 am
#71 tight head:
So then if we get that right, CJ or even Mujati for that matter wont have a problem then, because 8 will be working as one…
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
The scrum advantage is only a factor if Williams and Thorn stay injury free. The All Blacks scrum has struggled mightily whenever Boric has subbed on.
I don’t expect NZ to scrummage SA to death, but if we can get a solid platform upfront, with the Boks 5m back, watch out… NZ scored a great try from a scrum on halfway against England. Henry always gets conservative against the Boks, preferring to crash and bash, but width is the way to beat the Boks. If Nonu keeps passing like he has been, NZ have a real edge in the backs.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
#72 FrenklyMuDeah:
He did and if he has to choose between Adi and Frans, you can bet it will be Adi.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:04 am
#69 JL1:
Yip, Cobus Visagie would bend any prop (incl. BJ) in SA in half.
A different league hey
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:05 am
Front row should be Steenkamp, Du Plessis and Smit. Beast or CJ on the bench.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:05 am
#68 eight ball: when did he mention an actual number ?
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:06 am
#78 Dazzler:
Dazz you been listening to PDV too much when he says he has 28 players in his squad who are all equal!!
You don’t believe that do you?
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:07 am
#12 tight head:
you obviously know of a better time to “build a team”.
wold you be so kind as to enlighten the rest of us?
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:07 am
#73 skols: It’s irrelevant what I think really. I think PDV has a seriously difficult job on his hands if he gets a few key injuries to key players of colour though. Also, everyone lambasted JW when he include Brian Habana and look at him now. Maybe Beast and Mujati land up being our 1st choice front row!
Who knows?
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:08 am
#54
Pienaar at 8???
Are you on tik or something???
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:09 am
#20 Dazzler:
I think what we’re all forgetting is, we will be facing an AB scrum that demolished the English scrum including Sheridan.
they did not!!
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:10 am
The prop story reiamgined from “A Few Good Men” movie version:
“Son, in this world there are scrums, and in those scrums you need PROPS. Are you willing to do it? As a prop, I have greater responsibility than you can ever fathom. You use words like drunk and out of shape. Those words are the very I back bone of a life I have spent drinking and partying in, and you use them as a punch line.
You weep for your wings and centers and curse the prop forward. You have that luxury, you have the luxury of knowing that the front row, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, wins these games you play. Truth? You can’t handle the truth, cause deep down in places you don’t talk about in your selection meetings, you want me in that scrum, you need me in that scrum.
I neither have the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a back that scores under the very blanket of ball retention that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just bought me a beer and went on your way, otherwise, I suggest you crawl into a scrum and get dirty, either way, I don’t give a damn who you think is responsible.”
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:10 am
#79 ohtanisjacket: Good point about the locks, effecting the scrum. Williams and Thorn scrum very well, but Boric could be a weakness.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:12 am
Maybe BJ has an attitude problem like Fluke Watson ! Probably not, he doesn’t come across that badly but i cannot think why he was not included !
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:12 am
#85 asha1:
Take your best, experienced players to try and beat the All Blacks in NZ.
Play battle hardened, test match tight forwards.
You build individuals off the bench.
However 2 games in a row in NZ, you are only about winning, not about handing out jerseys to get experience.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:12 am
#83 bobbok: It’s an agreement he has in place behind the scenes. It’s not formal in his contract but is an undertaking he has committed to.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:14 am
#84 tight head:
No no, you were defending the fact that BJ was punished in the scrums in international games last year and prior to that. I quote…
“There are 8 men in a scrum.
It has to be disciplined into the art of scrumming.
When the binding, timing, body positions, and other factors are executed properly then you have 8 men working as one.”
By that logic (a logic which i agree with) then it doesnt matter if BJ or whoever isnt there. Because it’s not the performance of an indivdual that matters, but rather the pack as a whole.
Or does that only apply if BJ is going backwards in the scrum? Then its the other forwards fault? You’re contradicting yourself
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:14 am
#86 eight ball: I’m sure Beast and Mujati will make a world class front row……..someday. Until then lets just pick the best players in their respective positions. There will be many opportunities to give Beast and Mujati experience, All blacks in Wellington and Dunedin is probably not the place to “nurture” 2 very young (22 and 23), talented props.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:16 am
#88 asha1: Watch the 1st test, before his injury and yellow card. You’ll see they did.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:17 am
Good luck playing us guys, this is going to be your best opportunity to beat us at home over the last ten years—- one thing I am confused about though is the fact that the present Bok coach was the ***: coach under White who could not do the biz in NZ, and yet with the same players and without the previous head coach it appears as though you are expecting victory??
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:17 am
#93 eight ball: was you the fly on the wall ?
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:17 am
#86 eight ball: The reason I asked that question is that I think we can field 7 players of colour in the team all on merit, not because of the ANC or the fact that the coach is black.
Its been interesting that in the entire squad there have only been three “debatable” selection, being Botha being left out – the jury is still out on that one, Pieterson being included – a world cup winner, so maybe he gets the benefit of the doubt, and Adi – considered too small for test rugby but not S14, debatable.
So nobody has talked about quota’s or players being selected because they are black, all these players are there on merit.
July 2nd, 2008 at 9:17 am
#94 Dazzler:
Dazz your logic is skewed.
It is a discipline of 8, but obviously the best props out play the inferior ones.
Or are you suggesting that if we get the discipline of 8 right then it does not matter who is at tight head, so we can put Brian Habana there!!