Great Aussie scrum debate
22 Jul 2008
All Blacks assistant coach Steve Hansen accused the Wallabies of cheating at the scrum against the Springboks in Perth.
All Tests involving Australia immediately invoke debate over the strength of their pack at the set-piece, and with Hansen’s comments this build-up promises to be no different. Former Kiwi prop and now commentator, John Drake, also suggested the Wallabies’ engagement at the scrum was illegal, while New Zealand hooker Andrew Hore believes their scrum is improving.
Hansen intimated that Aussie scrumhalf Luke Burgess spun the ball into the scrum to ensure quick ball for the backs against the Springboks in Perth.
“They’re clever with the way they do things, you’ve only got to look at the way the halfback puts the ball in,” Hansen told reporters.
“They’ve adapted their scrum to suit the way they play. They don’t keep the ball in the scrum for a very long time.”
Hansen denied that Burgess didn’t put the ball in straight, but warned referee Craig Joubert to watch out for his technique.
“I’m suggesting you want to look at how he puts it in. How he holds the ball before he puts it in. It doesn’t matter what I think, it matters what the referee thinks,” said Hansen.
Drake was more scathing in his assessment of the scrum.
“I can’t believe they got away with what they did at scrum time with their technique of entering,” Drake told ABC Radio in Australia.
“The biggest thing I probably got out of the Test is the way that they probably cheated at scrum time.
“They pack very high, similar to what the Crusaders and the All Blacks did about three years ago,” he said.
“When they say crouch, they’re still high so the other team has to try and come up to them.
“It kind of puts them off, and then the Australians just dive straight down. I was pretty annoyed with that.”
The only player to join the debate so far has been Hore, who was more diplomatic in his assessment. He believes the Aussie scrum is no longer a weakness, as has been perceived over the last few years.
“Aussie have had a bit of a hard time in the scrums in the last few years but it definitely looked like they’ve got it together and they fronted up pretty well against what we know is a very good Springbok pack,” said Hore.
“Everyone’s probably gone over there to target their forward pack and they seem to have worked things out well.
102 Comments
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22 Jul 2008, 08:33 am
every1 cheating in the scrums, except us. ha ha
22 Jul 2008, 08:40 am
Sorry I have to repost this:
I know we didn’t deserve to win on Saturday and the Aussies looked hungrier then us, especially at the breakdown, but have you seen these stats from rugby365?
In the first Tri-Nations match, between New Zealand and South Africa, the scrums were 23, 2 resets, 3 collapses.
In the second Tri-Nations match, between New Zealand and South Africa, the scrums were 13, 1 resets, 3 collapses.
In the third Tri-Nations match, between Australia and South Africa, the scrums were 23, 10 reset, 16 collapses.
Now tell me why in the wet, slippery conditions of NZ hardly any scrums were collapsed, yet when we play the Aussies in good conditions most scrums were? I think its time refs looked at what the convicts are up to in the front-row. That said Aussies, you out thought us again, well done. I’m just not sure its was legal out-thinking.
22 Jul 2008, 08:41 am
Can’t believe I’m saying this, but we can take some tips from the Aussie scrum.
22 Jul 2008, 08:41 am
Referees are not alert enough to crooked scrum feeds.The wallaby
scrumhalf got away with murder.So the best answer is to employ an
8-man scrum Puma style to make their crooked feeds as slow a
ball as possible.
If Burger’s role is that of a fetcher he should be making less and not more
tackles as he needs to be on his feed at the breakdown.It is very
difficult for tall loosies to tackle and get to their feet quickly that
is why the Aussies are so successful .Waugh and Smith operate as a
pair while their big number 8 takes the ball up field.
You can see that Deans is a clever coach and has brought some
Crusaders tactics and style to the Wallabies.
22 Jul 2008, 08:42 am
Sorry’ feed’ should read feet.
22 Jul 2008, 08:46 am
This means in the 1st 2 games against NZ on average only 25% of scrums were disrupted, whilst in the one against Aus on average every scrum was disrupted at least once and 13% were actually disrupted twice. Collapsing scrums ARE dangerous. Probably the most dangerous aspect of our beautiful sport. The Aussies must be exposed. This has gone too far.
22 Jul 2008, 08:48 am
And lets not forget the 2 scrum penalties WE conceded! Ridiculous!
22 Jul 2008, 08:51 am
#4 brentie: For all the criticism that has gone his way and PDVs for picking him, we actually needed Watson on the bench. Schalk looked tired and when he went off the writing was on the wall.
22 Jul 2008, 08:51 am
I had noticed this (resets). There were also a high number of resets with the Australia vs France games. It look very suspicious and makes scrum time like watching paint dry.
22 Jul 2008, 08:52 am
The Aussies are just naturally underhand, like Chappells bowling.
22 Jul 2008, 08:53 am
WTF? What happened to the ABs ‘taking it on the chin’ as Hansen said no less than 2 weeks ago. We were accused of whinging when we complained about their scrum but they can bleat about the Aussie scrum?
22 Jul 2008, 09:01 am
“All Blacks assistant coach Steve Hansen accused the Wallabies of cheating at the scrum against the Springboks in Perth.”
Didnt PDV accuse the AB’s of cheating at scrum time??
22 Jul 2008, 09:03 am
I reckon steve henson is very afraid…he is trying to ensure that the ref thinks the wallabies scrum is poor. he is hoping the ref can ref the game on reputation.
As teams are not allowed to talk to refs before the game Stevie is trying to talk to the ref through the media.
22 Jul 2008, 09:04 am
“When they say crouch, they’re still high so the other team has to try and come up to them.”
Is this cheating??
22 Jul 2008, 09:06 am
#14 Wallabie – Superbru S14 Champion: “and then the Australians just dive straight down.” That definitely is!
22 Jul 2008, 09:08 am
#6 Francois Steyn is over-rated: yes, but you didnt lose the game is the scrums
22 Jul 2008, 09:10 am
#16 vindicated: No, the Wallabies out-played us, I agree. They deserved their victory, but the fact remains they “cheat” at scrum time and not just technically, but actually in a dangerous manner.
22 Jul 2008, 09:12 am
#15 Francois Steyn is over-rated:
**** mate…old stevie is creating a perception and is not reality.
What is wrong with you getting a team to play how you want them to and you not playing theirs.
It is called dictating your game plan.
22 Jul 2008, 09:13 am
This game is going to be a cracker – I’m almost as existed as when the Boks play….almost.
22 Jul 2008, 09:13 am
#17 Francois Steyn is over-rated:
i reckon you go by what is said in the media than actually wat is happening. Just face up to it your lot got shoved and if the boks were stronger than the aussies….why did they not dictate terms???
I tell you why…the boks are not superior at scrum time.
22 Jul 2008, 09:15 am
#18 Wallabie – Superbru S14 Champion: Dude read my post at 2. Those are the facts, the actual stats of the 1st 3 tri-nations games. These stats are actually pretty reliable as it is easy to monitor and count scrum incidents.
22 Jul 2008, 09:15 am
#17 Francois Steyn is over-rated: The word cheat is normally used by losers to defend a loss – ie PdV, Steve Hansen and you
22 Jul 2008, 09:17 am
“All Blacks assistant coach Steve Hansen accused the Wallabies of cheating at the scrum against the Springboks in Perth.’
So is he implying that Lawrence was cheating ? Damn whinging puppet ! He know nothing about rugby – as far as I can see.
22 Jul 2008, 09:18 am
#22 vindicated: Okay answer the question posed in post 2:
Now tell me why in the wet, slippery conditions of NZ hardly any scrums were collapsed, yet when we play the Aussies in good conditions most scrums were?
22 Jul 2008, 09:18 am
#17 Francois Steyn is over-rated: or the word cheat is use to cover ones one inadequacies and short comings – FACT the Bok scrum has been “OWNED” by the Aussies two times in a row
22 Jul 2008, 09:21 am
#25 vindicated: Can you answer my question or are you refusing to look at the facts?
22 Jul 2008, 09:22 am
#25 vindicated: be that as it may, these accusations did not come from a Bok…
22 Jul 2008, 09:24 am
#26 Francois Steyn is over-rated:
Don’t even bother with Vindicated mate. He’s just a sad little person who doesn’t come here to debate rugby, but rather to stir.
Hansen is right. The Aussies never crouch on the call, they stay high and then only slightly drop, which means the oppo has to “hit up” slightly whilst they drive down. It’s illegal and it’s dangerous.
I asked the exact same question yesterday. It’s not just this test. You look at the Wallabies last 10 test matches and see how many scrum resets they have had.
22 Jul 2008, 09:25 am
“All Blacks assistant coach Steve Hansen accused the Wallabies of cheating at the scrum against the Springboks in Perth.”
What did Hansen say before the last Bok/AB test? They try to focus on what they can change, they do their talking on the pitch, they don’t moan – just scrum.
He changed his tune quickly.
22 Jul 2008, 09:26 am
#28 Vetkoek: “You look at the Wallabies last 10 test matches and see how many scrum resets they have had.” That would be a good exercise and would surely expose their tactics. Unfortunately I can’t find a rugby365 archive like they have on keo or we could go back and look.
22 Jul 2008, 09:34 am
…for those controversial polls that arent discussed here…
rucktheruckingruckersDOTblogspotDOTcom
22 Jul 2008, 09:40 am
#28 Vetkoek: The only thing sad is when losers (Hansen, De Villiers and now You) go to the “c” word
Your side was smashed and even if the scrums were policed better the result wouldnt have changed – so cry me a river you whinging, whining, cry baby
22 Jul 2008, 09:41 am
I’m not crying. It’s just been raining on my face…
22 Jul 2008, 09:46 am
#32 vindicated:
I was talking about you, not to you nutsack.
Please feel free to respond to this though, with more baseless drivel. Just remember, I’m not a therapist, so I’m not going to waste any more time trying to help you get through your insecurity issues. You want help? See a Vet.
22 Jul 2008, 09:51 am
Australia V Springboks – last 6 games – Aussies 4 / Boks 2
If you cant work out how to beat our scrum then whos fault is that
How many more years do you want
How many more excuses do you want to find ?
22 Jul 2008, 09:59 am
#35 vindicated: I just want another month or 2, the games on SA soil should even that out and I want you to answer my question.
22 Jul 2008, 10:01 am
#36 Francois Steyn is over-rated:
Funnily enough, the venues for the last 6 games are 4/2 in favour of the Aussie as well.
But our resident gimp conveniently omitted that fact as he is prone to do.
22 Jul 2008, 10:04 am
#35 vindicated: sorry Boet we have had this discussion it is in your gene pool to cheat and you suger coat with terms like “street smart” etc. Cheating does not belong on a sports field and I hope Craig Joubert gives your scrum a red card if they carry on. The same goes for the AB’s or the Boks if they cheat like your team does.
22 Jul 2008, 10:05 am
#37 Vetkoek: Whateva, lets leave him alone. I believe it would be simple for NZ and SA to sort out the Aussie cheats by simply revealing the scrum collapse statistics. They seem to only get exposed at World Cups. I actually disagree with most SAFFAS, I think we should kick up a bigger fuss about their scrum tactics. I hope PDV does some research and unleashes some damning stats on the Wallaby “scrum”.
22 Jul 2008, 10:06 am
#2 Francois Steyn is over-rated: Interesting. I got the feeling during the match that something was wrong, but I didn’t have the stats to point it out…
22 Jul 2008, 10:07 am
The Aussie scrum isn’t just a little technical cheat, they actually cause the scrum to collapse. This is the most dangerous aspect of rugby.
22 Jul 2008, 10:13 am
#40 King Shark: Ya it was blatantly obvious, the stats just back it up. Why doesn’t someone at Keo re-look at that game and specifically the scrums? My perception was that every time the Boks got a good hit, the scrum collapsed, whilst when the Aussies got a good hit it stayed up. Can Keo tell me if this was true?
22 Jul 2008, 10:18 am
lmao!!!
kiwis “just get on with business” according to this hansen plonker but now he is whinging before the game has even kicked off?
i cant wait for the kiwis to come on here and justify his comments after having a proper go at PdV for taking their illegal tactics on.
again, LMAO!!!
what a wonderful world we live in.
22 Jul 2008, 10:19 am
the aussies collapsed the scrum all day long. i really dont see how they outscrummed us when both front rows had their heads in the dirt all day.
it is clever and devious. but thats how they play.
22 Jul 2008, 10:21 am
Are you stupid or maybe a league / AFL supporter & don’t understand the rules.
Of course it would have made a difference to the result, a good attacking platform for any side makes all the difference.
Don’t be a prat.
You can whine & yell & shout and spit your dummy as much as you like, the results stand, the Ozzies have a weak scrum & use underhanded techniques to account for these.
And yes, the result still stands from Saturday, just before you slip off your soap box.
22 Jul 2008, 10:21 am
There’s no doubt the Wallabies have very little power upfront. England showed that ruthlessly a few years ago at Twickenham when Sheridan ate two of their props as an afternoon snack and again at the RWC. Very few teams are so severely man-handled at international level and their pack hasn’t changed hugely. Certainly, their props aren’t particularly strong. However, what’s undeniable is the fact that they’ve developed a technique that allows them to largely negate these deficiencies. And if we’re honest, all teams aim to compensate for their weaknesses in some way, including the Boks and the AB’s. No point in whining about it – we just have to get on with it and find a way around it.
22 Jul 2008, 10:23 am
Hansen didn’t call the Wallabies cheats. He initimated that Burgess has an “interesting” way of putting the ball into the scrum.
If anyone called the Wallabies cheasts, it was John Drake, and he’s an ex-AB turned commentator, not part of the AB coaching setup.
To be honest, I think the IRB should bring back pre-test meetings with the refs where these sort of things can be aired in private. All the IRB have done by removing the mandatory meetings is to encourage a sideshow that the official pre-test team media events have now become.
I guess its good for media ratings, but it does nothing for our sport IMO.
22 Jul 2008, 10:24 am
42. Interesting view point. I thought that on some of the engagements it went down due to slippery conditions, Sometimes the refs call was inconsistent too. I believe that he actually apologised at one point for it. Also I note the Bokke front row tried to twist the scrum and were warned for it also and there always seems to one side or another acusing the other
22 Jul 2008, 10:24 am
#46 BigScrum:
But in order for Sheridan to be allowed to scrum, he needed a ref who would force the Wallabies to do so. and there are very few refs, NH or SH, who see the scrum as an important part of the game and thus want to see a fair contest.
22 Jul 2008, 10:25 am
#47 stodders: ja, but then what would we have to brawl about on keo all week stodeers?
the psychological side show is part of the entertainment surely?
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