Great Aussie scrum debate
22 Jul 2008
All Blacks assistant coach Steve Hansen accused the Wallabies of cheating at the scrum against the Springboks in Perth.
All Tests involving Australia immediately invoke debate over the strength of their pack at the set-piece, and with Hansen’s comments this build-up promises to be no different. Former Kiwi prop and now commentator, John Drake, also suggested the Wallabies’ engagement at the scrum was illegal, while New Zealand hooker Andrew Hore believes their scrum is improving.
Hansen intimated that Aussie scrumhalf Luke Burgess spun the ball into the scrum to ensure quick ball for the backs against the Springboks in Perth.
“They’re clever with the way they do things, you’ve only got to look at the way the halfback puts the ball in,” Hansen told reporters.
“They’ve adapted their scrum to suit the way they play. They don’t keep the ball in the scrum for a very long time.”
Hansen denied that Burgess didn’t put the ball in straight, but warned referee Craig Joubert to watch out for his technique.
“I’m suggesting you want to look at how he puts it in. How he holds the ball before he puts it in. It doesn’t matter what I think, it matters what the referee thinks,” said Hansen.
Drake was more scathing in his assessment of the scrum.
“I can’t believe they got away with what they did at scrum time with their technique of entering,” Drake told ABC Radio in Australia.
“The biggest thing I probably got out of the Test is the way that they probably cheated at scrum time.
“They pack very high, similar to what the Crusaders and the All Blacks did about three years ago,” he said.
“When they say crouch, they’re still high so the other team has to try and come up to them.
“It kind of puts them off, and then the Australians just dive straight down. I was pretty annoyed with that.”
The only player to join the debate so far has been Hore, who was more diplomatic in his assessment. He believes the Aussie scrum is no longer a weakness, as has been perceived over the last few years.
“Aussie have had a bit of a hard time in the scrums in the last few years but it definitely looked like they’ve got it together and they fronted up pretty well against what we know is a very good Springbok pack,” said Hore.
“Everyone’s probably gone over there to target their forward pack and they seem to have worked things out well.
102 Comments
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22 Jul 2008, 10:27 am
#48 SAussie/QldRed: ja, we now have a team that hasnt played you guys yet, accusing you of illegal play.
apparently thats not how kiwis operate, unless they want to.
22 Jul 2008, 10:28 am
#36 Francois Steyn is over-rated: #37 Vetkoek:
Ok, i’ll spell it out like this for you two dom donners
If SA manage to win the next to games at home, you will still be 50/50 against the Aussies over the last few years
At the moment we OWN you – but – you have a chance to level at 4 games all
To do that you must win your next two games
One slip up and we will still OWN you (as we do now) and will have home ground advantage next year
Do you understand ??
22 Jul 2008, 10:29 am
#46 BigScrum:
One way around it is to wait for them to collapse a scrum and then place the full weight of your front row on their hooker. That may make him think twice before he does it again
#49 stodders:
amen to that
22 Jul 2008, 10:30 am
#43 rangerman: Rangerman, personally, I don’t think the Springboks had much on the ABs re: scrummaging illegalities.
After the towelling the Boks received in the scrums in Wellington, PdV and his coaches were looking for anything to put doubt in the refs mind. The Bok scrum improved immeasurably in Dunedin, but it wasn’t so much down to the refs policing of the scrums. It was more down to Thorn and Sommerville not being in the run on XV, and the loss of Williams after 20 mins. The ABs lost their most technical tighthead and their entire engine room.
Btw, I see that PdV had a decent whinge after the Perth test. Funny guy. He was gracious in defeat to the English speaking cameras, then launched into a tirade to the Afrikaans speaking cameras
. His performance at the post-match press conference also made Matfield and JdV look a little uneasy as he was “getting things off his chest”.
Compare Hansen’s comments to the volume that PdV has been verbalising, and you have a mismatch of the scale of South Africa vs Nepal
22 Jul 2008, 10:31 am
#49 stodders: Agreed stodders, fair point. But I guess my point is more that we should only focus on what we can influence. So, we scrum like b*stards in the build up to a test and when it’s against the Wallabies, we take in to account the fact that they’re likely to collapse it all afternoon. That’s something we can do our best to negate or challenge through our own approach and technique. If we get a ref who’s smart enough to see what’s going on and he blows them up for scrum infringements all day, that’s a bonus. But we can’t influence that so we cannot afford to rely on it. If it happens awesome; if not, we need a way around it. Let’s focus only on what we can directly influence!
22 Jul 2008, 10:31 am
51. Rangerman, I don’t think the TN’s will be won or lost in the scrum. Its all a beat up
22 Jul 2008, 10:33 am
#51 rangerman: Btw, I think all coaches are hypocrites. They are all out to sell their team as angels and the opposition as demons. The Boks, Wallabies and ABs are no different. Its all about mind games, not so much with each other, but with the ref.
22 Jul 2008, 10:33 am
#53 Vetkoek: Hey Vetkoek if that works, I’m all for it. And perhaps a stray Bakkies fist shooting through as it collapses (so as not to be singled out in all the commotion) isn’t a bad idea either!
22 Jul 2008, 10:35 am
#52 vindicated: lol, let me put it to you this way MATE.
if you want to quote history then dont be selective.
we owned england who OWNED you last year at the wc. we are no 1 and world champs, your side are where exactly?
we have a better win/loss ratio against your mob.
we still dont view your bunch as our greatest rivals. that honour belongs to NZ and always will. you are the sideshow bob in the 3n.
grow a chin, get a life and find some mates.
22 Jul 2008, 10:36 am
#57 stodders: lol, agreed stodders. i take it all as part of the show.
i thrive on this stuff.
22 Jul 2008, 10:37 am
WOW! What a bunch of whiners.. Funny coming from a bunch of people who love to point out that particular foible in others – Eddie Moans, nothing like a good whine after a victory et. al. Very poor losers indeed.
22 Jul 2008, 10:39 am
#61 corms: who is whining?
it wasnt saffas who made the comments mate, it was the kiwis. we just happen to agree.
22 Jul 2008, 10:42 am
#55 BigScrum: I agree mate. The Wallabies are the masters of making a game scrappy in areas that they are not strong in. They will ruthlessly attack you in the areas you are weak in though.
I don’t like this, because the refs should be stronger in forcing the Wallabies to contest even those areas of their game that they are weak in and want to hide.
As an example, the ABs don’t like lineouts. They can’t stop lineouts once the ball has gone into touch, but they can minimise the number in a game by keeping the ball in play and playing to their strengths. It is a legitimate tactic that is allowed in the game. An illegitimate tactic is closing the gap to put off the hooker and jumpers and this should be clamped down upon.
The Wallabies don’t like scrummaging. They can’t stop scrums once the ball has been knocked on or a free kick scrum awarded, but they can minimise the number in a game by not knocking on, not infringing at the breakdownand playing to their strengths. It is a legitimate tactic that is allowed in the game. An illegitimate tactic is where they disrupt the oppositions scrum by engaging late and high, collapse it repeatedly or don’t contest it and give away a free kick that the opposition take a tap quickly. I think the refs get bored after a while and let the ball go into play even if the front row has collapsed (see how many times it happened in the PErth game). This should be clamped down on.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that the Wallabies are the constant factor when it comes to games with multiple scrum resets. I think the Boks and ABs ought to ask for scrums at every free kick like England did. After a while, the ref does get annoyed, and after a while the Wallaby front row come under huge pressure to stay up or risk yellow cards. Pay to your strenghts, and hope the ref can see what is unfolding in front of him.
Who is the ref on Saturday?
22 Jul 2008, 10:42 am
#61 corms: they dont even have the balls to stand up by themselves see 62
22 Jul 2008, 10:45 am
#64 vindicated: lol, good one. any more?
22 Jul 2008, 10:46 am
#64 vindicated: i am finding you quite amusing today. keep it up.
22 Jul 2008, 10:51 am
#63 stodders: Spot-on stodders! If you have a weakness, you can’t just cheat. For years we were dodgy under the high-ball, you can’t get away with 16 air-tackles in a game though and that is effectively what the Aussies are doing. Not directly but see the analogy. Collapsing scrums break necks.
22 Jul 2008, 10:52 am
#59 rangerman: Let me put it to you this way – you’re living in the past – you gotta stop quoting the World Cup cause thats whats getting you in a bind
Aussies also view the All Blacks as the main competitor and the Bledisloe Cup is viewed with equal reverence on both sides of the Tasman
Aussies love facing the Boks as its a challenge but not one that daunts them – maybe you picked that up in quotes last week from the team
Anyway – we have done our bit and won at home – Its up to the Boks now to stop the Wallabies in SA
22 Jul 2008, 10:55 am
#67 Francois Steyn is over-rated: And yet it was the Boks penalised for collapsing at scrum time. Watch the game again, your scrum was matched and the front row collapsed simple as that.
22 Jul 2008, 10:59 am
#68 vindicated: Let’s all live in the today! IRB World Rankings – 21 July 2008 Position Member Union Rating Point
1RSA SOUTH AFRICA 90.0
22 Jul 2008, 11:00 am
#70 Francois Steyn is over-rated:
and yet he bangs on about the last 6 games. Typical comment from him. The 2 neurons that he is capable of firing up simply don’t do enough to get the brain going.
22 Jul 2008, 11:02 am
#68 vindicated: let me put it to you this way mate.
i will stop quoting history when you do. all of a sudden history means nothing to you? lol, you are a funny guy.
the AB’s view us as their strongest rival. we have a far better record against them than you do.
maybe if you get the bleedieslow cup back this decade they will change their view. you are our bunnies.
love it.
22 Jul 2008, 11:03 am
#69 corms: The Aussies were trying to collapse the scrum, we tried to keep it up illegally, by dropping our bind and putting a hand to the floor. It was dumb, but we were trying to prevent the scrum from collapsing. Australia are clever and played the game well, but collapsing the scrum is illegal and very dangerous. Expect the refs to wisen-up before this 3N is through.
22 Jul 2008, 11:04 am
one win at home and the aussies are set for world domination?
fortunately there are some pretty great aussies around on this site.
you vindicated are not one of them.
22 Jul 2008, 11:08 am
It’s so ironic when a kiwi picks up on the illegal tactics of the Aussie scrum in the build up to a test against them but not by the Kiwi who actually refs the game against the Boks… Kiwi refs are kak period and their double standards are very dissapointing.
22 Jul 2008, 11:08 am
#63 stodders: Yeah, I agree it would be a very shrewd move to call for scrums as frequently as possible and that hopefully, the ref would cotton on to the fact that the attacking team is doing it for a reason. But I still think the Boks in particular – and even the AB’s to an extent – have lost tests because they’ve relied on a referees ability to see what’s really going on. And the problem with that is that it’s lost us tests and it doesn’t matter, ultimately, how it’s happened. And the ref for Saturday is Craig Joubert – what’s he like with the scrums?
22 Jul 2008, 11:13 am
#73 Francois Steyn is over-rated: Sorry mate but that’s rubbish! You admit you drop the bind and then accuse the Wallabies of collapsing??? Maybe, just maybe your scrum was beaten and your front row dropped the bind to stop themselves collapsing. Did you think about that??
22 Jul 2008, 11:19 am
I see that Mortlock is out for the Wallabies. Big loss.
22 Jul 2008, 11:20 am
#77 corms: What you are suggesting is that we got away with collapsing the Aussie scrum 16 times (something we didn’t do against NZ) and THEN whilst getting away with a collapsing scrum decided to try and prop one up to prevent it collapsing, just to give away a penalty? If you read the stats posted at 2 and look at the facts objectively, I don’t see how your view stands up.
22 Jul 2008, 11:21 am
From what i can seen guys theres no huge difference in the scrums between the three of us anyway. Whats the issue here, the bind. Even when the scrums were packed correctly I couldn’t see any real difference, ? for you lot, how many tightheads were won in the TB this year/
22 Jul 2008, 11:23 am
#68 vindicated:
#74 rangerman:
Why the argument? Are you boys fighting over who is the ABs greatest foe? It’s funny. It’s stuff like this that keeps the ABs aura strong
22 Jul 2008, 11:23 am
Should have been TN
22 Jul 2008, 11:24 am
#80 SAussie/QldRed: Read post 2.
22 Jul 2008, 11:26 am
78. that hot of the press, guess who is coming in Tahu, can’t wait to see him play, He could be playing for the AB’s, Just like Cooper
22 Jul 2008, 11:33 am
The aussies cheat at scrumtime. They have to. The time at Twickenham when Jutge was having none of it and they had no choice but to scrum legally, they had props stretchered off – courtesy of Sheridan, mainly – the same props playing today. Dunning, Baxter….I can’t believe refs still fall for it
22 Jul 2008, 11:35 am
Watch the Aussie props, if they bind on the arm,their first reaction
is not to scrum forward but to pull the opponents arm down creating
the impressions that the opposing prop is collapsing the scrum.
It usually happens on the side which is out of the refs.view.
22 Jul 2008, 11:36 am
#81 stodders: lol, you canny scot.
i am not arguing, merely trying to help vindicated come to terms with his angst at having to be an aussie living in south africa.
he reveals his antipathy for south africans daily.
i actually feel sorry for him.
22 Jul 2008, 11:56 am
#87 rangerman: LOL
22 Jul 2008, 12:07 pm
Where is our friend TIGHTHEAD when you need him ?
22 Jul 2008, 12:35 pm
First the All Blacks cheated when you lost in Wellington
and now the Aussies cheated when they beat you in Perth
Really, you lot are pathetic
22 Jul 2008, 12:42 pm
#90 vindicated: so what do you think about hansen then?
22 Jul 2008, 13:44 pm
#12 Wallabie – Superbru S14 Champion: Nobody really knows for sure what PDV says or whether to take the part of the gobbledygook you somehow understood seriously or not. When Piet Helium gabbles on, it’s like listening to an off-key Italian falsetto singing a Verdi opera. You really haven’t the foggiest idea what it all means, but you’re too polite to say “Huh?” in case everyone else thinks you’re stupid. So you just sit there, grinning, and dazzled by the sheer eye-popping weirdness of it all.
22 Jul 2008, 14:02 pm
#90 vindicated:
The aussies cheat at scrumtime win or lose. we lost because we were **** on the day
22 Jul 2008, 14:39 pm
Hansen almost escaped the idiot brigade but after denial one week more has made him a moron
22 Jul 2008, 14:50 pm
Embarrassing, where for out thou dignity
22 Jul 2008, 14:55 pm
I can’t believe the words he used!
22 Jul 2008, 14:56 pm
#91 rangerman:
twat
22 Jul 2008, 15:00 pm
#90 vindicated:
So is Hansen
23 Jul 2008, 02:49 am
I skimmed through the game and checked out several wallaby scrum put-ins.
Its pretty bloody clear that Burgess spins that ball in sideways as Hansen pointed out.
Now, not to sound like a total n00b, is that illegal? It seems like a pretty obvious trick.
23 Jul 2008, 08:27 am
Whine whine whine……
The best chokers and the worst losers in the world.
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