Waugh a worry for Boks
29 Aug 2008
The Aussie breakdown threat remains constant despite Phil Waugh’s elevation to the starting line-up, says Gary Gold.
George Smith has been the form fetcher of the 2008 Tri-Nations and yet Australia coach Robbie Deans has opted for Waugh to start against the Boks this Saturday. The Boks have had few answers to the Aussie back row, and the switch between Smith and Waugh might not change the fact.
“It’s so difficult to play against either of them and to be honest I was hoping neither of them would play this weekend,” Gold told keo.co.za. “I actually have no idea why Robbie has not gone with George as he was in great form.
“Having said that, it hasn’t made a difference to our preparation. They are similar players who are both very hard on the ball and are especially good in those defensive situations.”
Gold said the Boks have been working at fine-tuning their breakdown approach after a mediocre showng in Durban.
“We’ve been looking at a few micro issues at the breakdown and focusing on presentation of the ball and also the attitude in the collision. It’s going to be another big contest.”
The onus is not only on the Bok loose forwards but on the tight five as well. Gold said the Aussies will miss Dan Vickerman who is out with injury. In this area, the Boks may have the edge.
“Dan is in the mould of Victor in that he’s great at the lineout. I was surprised they didn’t use Dean Mumm a bit more, but Hugh McMeniman and James Horwill are quality players.
“I was also surprised they didn’t go with Nathan Sharpe as he probably knows Victor the best.”
The Boks will start with two No 5s in their second row once again, a stop-gap measure that’s been necessary since the injury to Bakkies Botha. Gold believes the pair of Victor Matfield and Andries Bekker aren’t far off from finding that balance.
“Andries has worked very hard on the physical aspect of his game and I don’t think it’s unfair to say that in a year he will be one of the best locks in the world.
“But we do miss Bakkies terribly. He led from the front in Dunedin, he’s really the silent assassin.
“Bakkies hists his 15 rucks but he hits them hard. Even the quality opensiders will think twice when they know a guy like that is around.”
By Jon Cardinelli, in Johannesburg
265 Comments
29 Aug 2008, 14:05 pm
‘A few micro issues at the breakdown’? MICRO issues?! Sweet mother … we need a complete overhaul – a new approach – to the breakdown!
29 Aug 2008, 14:06 pm
Waugh a worry? What a disastrous statement to offend our so-called loose trio.
29 Aug 2008, 14:11 pm
I hope Schalk flattens this midget they call Waugh
29 Aug 2008, 14:14 pm
WAUGH!
What is it good for?
Nothing!
29 Aug 2008, 14:16 pm
“I don’t know why they replaced George Smith.”
I’ll tell you why, dumbass. Thanks to you, they feel they can now rest their top players against our team. Thanks again for the wonderful transformation you brought to Springbok rugby this year.
29 Aug 2008, 14:21 pm
Not to sound like a granny or a negative person, but we are in big BOLLIE!!!
29 Aug 2008, 14:22 pm
“i was surprised”
“i dont know”
these are not encouraging words.
but on the plus side, at least we are blowing some hot air in their direction for a change.
29 Aug 2008, 14:23 pm
#5 Tacitus: Agree! Deans wont risk his most important player for this meaningless match.
29 Aug 2008, 14:24 pm
The ball presentation is pathetic by the tackled player, if they only work on this they would see a 30% increase in being effective at the rucks.
29 Aug 2008, 14:25 pm
What?! No stupid pun on his surname in the headline…you are slipping JC.
I would have though something along the lines of ‘Breakdown Waugh Worries Boks’ – nice symmetry to it as well, and even a bit of alliteration for the die-hard fans out there.
29 Aug 2008, 14:27 pm
#9 PissAnt:
True, most of the lost possession arises from lack of ball security during the tackle. We also need to get our locks out of the backline and busy clearing rucks. Your tight five needs to hunt as a unit, going in hard, this all helps the back row do their job.
29 Aug 2008, 14:27 pm
Well, my big game of the weekend is tonight.
Tomorrow will either be another necessary sacrifice to get rid of dimwit and his coaching team, or else it will be a hollow victory based on the Ellis Park factor and the Aussies lack of motivation going into this game. And if so, it will merely paper over the cracks, as some other blogger stated today, and buy Snor some more time to screw around with Bok rugby.
29 Aug 2008, 14:29 pm
#1 Bigscrum.
This is just Golds way of saying we suck at the breakdown and I really don’t know how to fix it.
Mr Gold this is how you fix it: Commit more players to the breakdown, and the first players need to arrive at a lower body position, to drive the opposition players off the ball. Have at least 2 players right behind the ball carrier to to support him immediately after the collision. When the ball carrier goes to ground present it properly for the support players to protect it.
Easy isn’t it. And I don’t even get paid your salary, and have not ever been a rugby coach and I can see the glaring errors.
29 Aug 2008, 14:29 pm
#12 Tacitus:
You really are a miserable sod, aren’t you?
29 Aug 2008, 14:30 pm
Gary…its your part of ship. We cannot continue to “not have the ball”, Waugh and Smith are beatable on the ground, the Boks are physical enough. Once again last week the guys were slow to the breakdown and the clearing out was lacklustre. Like I said “your part of ship”.
29 Aug 2008, 14:33 pm
Mediocre at the breakdowns. A few micro issues.
Somehow I think the breakdowns are a CRISIS for us. But then again PDV and the staff have got it all in hand. I’ll sleep well tonight knowing that we will do a 180 tomorrow!!
29 Aug 2008, 14:33 pm
#13 lion4ever: They could fix it by changing the backrow but this trio seems untouchable no matter how ineffective they are.
29 Aug 2008, 14:36 pm
#11 WP Till I Die:
Everytime Heyneke’s Bulls had a bad game wherein they turned over a lot of possession at the breakdown, he had a standard remedy for it. He would always say that they didn’t dominate the collisions as they should have.
And then in the following week he would drill them in that department – using whatever magical touches and focusing techniques he is the master at. Come the next game, the breakdown would usually be sweet as apple pie. Why? Because Bakkies, Danie Rossouw, Andries Human and Gary Botha would bliksem into every ruck like a blue tsunami and smash opposition infringers back onto their side of the ruck – far, far back onto their side, in fact.
Dominate the collissions, send your forwards into the rucks in numbers and as a unit, and ball protection will take care of itself.
No need for loads of excuses, technical mumbo jumbo and lamenting about the refereeing decisions going against you.
Anyone recall Bakkies in the World Cup final sending that English forward into orbit with a 10 metre runup ruck cleaning charge? THAT’s what Bekker should be doing, instead of doing Campo shuffles in the backline with ball in hand.
29 Aug 2008, 14:37 pm
#17 Big Hit:
Spies is not effective as a loosie, you rarely see him rucking. Smith seems overplayed and tired. Schalk needs his long hair back.
My combo would be Grobbelaar at 6, Burger at 7, Joe van Niekerk at 8.
Hell, at this stage I’ll even have Danie Rossouw at 8 (never thought I’d say that, just shows you how the mighty have fallen).
29 Aug 2008, 14:37 pm
“I was hoping neither of them would play this weekend,” Gold told keo.co.za.
Great stuff
You might as well say I hope they don’t try very hard and let us win for a change
29 Aug 2008, 14:37 pm
#13 lion4ever: what are the chances that we’ll get it right this weekend, which would be the fourth match of asking?!
29 Aug 2008, 14:38 pm
#18 Tacitus:
I fully agree.
29 Aug 2008, 14:40 pm
#18 Tacitus: Nou-net bietjie in my mond gekots, maar jy is 100% reg.
29 Aug 2008, 14:44 pm
#<a#19 WP Till I Die: Juan Smith is the player I would drop. Put Burger at blindside and a fetcher at openside.
29 Aug 2008, 14:46 pm
#21
With loose trio, not very good. As much as I hate say it, Fluke would have brought a bit balance, provided he played the fetcher role, not the link between forwards and backs. he should leave that to Spies and Burger (I took what we’ve got in the squad, not my wish list). But with 3 ball carriers in the backrow, we will see same old same old again Saturday.
To avoid the pain, I might even take the missus to the Getaway Show on Saturday.
29 Aug 2008, 14:49 pm
#25 lion4ever: I am going down to the beach. If we win, I will consider watching afterwards. Not going to put myself through the pain of watching the game live.
29 Aug 2008, 14:49 pm
Any news on the decision of the Director of rugby job? I thought the PC were talking about it today.
29 Aug 2008, 14:50 pm
#24 Big Hit:
I agree with you, but if you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, the necessity for making that change is regretful.
Last year, a loose trio of Burger, Smith and Spies was widely regarded as the best possible backrow that SA could have by far. In fact, it was considered a fantasy at best, since all of them were never fit at the same time to try it out.
Now that we have that luxury, Snor’s gameplan is totally stuffing up this potentially devestating combination. Because of the lack of forwards committing to the rucks, our loose forwards are rendered inneffective. We are now forced to consider fetcher types just to make up for the fact that Andries Bekker, Matfield, and CJ van der Linde is waiting to run with the ball at outside centre.
It should not be like that. Instead, the tight five should do the hard work, with maybe one or two of the loose forwards assisting if they got to the ruck first. At most you should have one dedicated fetcher – a role that Schalk used to fill quite well. But under Snor, he seems totally incapable of doing even that.
Now we are trying to treat the symptoms of the disease in knee jerk fashion by screaming for more fetcher flanks, while the actual cause is the tight forwards hanging out wide and not committing to the rucks.
This team, as it is (barring our injuries), could beat any team on the planet, at any venue. We have just one weakness. And that is the coach.
29 Aug 2008, 14:52 pm
#27 superbok:
You can forget about it.
It will never happen, they will never pull White in.
29 Aug 2008, 14:53 pm
#18 Tacitus:
HM now famous quote..
Rugby is not a contact sport…
it is a collision sport.
29 Aug 2008, 14:54 pm
#28 Tacitus: Now I agree with you. In your previous post you singled out Bekker, now at least Matfield is included. You are right, forwards need to do their work.
29 Aug 2008, 14:55 pm
#28 Tacitus: Maybe they just aren’t as good as a unit in reality as they are in fantasy land
29 Aug 2008, 14:56 pm
#29 PissAnt: 100%… never! Till hell freezes over!
29 Aug 2008, 14:56 pm
#30 Staal:
So om terug te kom na gister, jy se die spoed het effens afgeneem danksy te veel kragwerk?
Is dit ‘n aansienlike verkil? En as dit die geval is, kan dit reggestel word?
Volgens my was die spoed meer van ‘n “differentiator” as die krag. Baie ouens in daai posisie is sterk. Bittermin is bliksems vinnig.
29 Aug 2008, 14:56 pm
#9 PissAnt: Ball presentation? I rarely see the Boks presenting anything. They either fling the ball backwards as they hit the ground or they hold onto it. Something in between with a couple of men driving over the ball as the ball carrier hits the deck would be a good start.
29 Aug 2008, 14:57 pm
#29 PissAnt: Will just show there incompetency. They don’t want to be exposed.
29 Aug 2008, 14:57 pm
#24 Big Hit: Agree but I feel you are wasting your time. The loose trio, ball in hand seems to be the way they want to go.
29 Aug 2008, 14:57 pm
The Bokke coaches should re-watch the tapes from the last two performances from McCaw they could learn alot from the worlds finest rugby player.
29 Aug 2008, 14:57 pm
#28 Tacitus:
“This team, as it is (barring our injuries), could beat any team on the planet, at any venue. We have just one weakness. And that is the coach.” all 3 of them
29 Aug 2008, 14:58 pm
#24 Big Hit:
That’s exactly what my Grobbelaar, Burger, Van Niekerk combo seeks to do.
29 Aug 2008, 14:58 pm
#31 Boerboel:
Agreed. But remember that Bekker is playing at no.4 lock. Bakkies’ position. That means it is even more unforgiveable for him to be hanging in the backline. But Matfield is doing it too.
My point is, however, it is the coach who is telling them to do this. He is the one to blame.
29 Aug 2008, 14:59 pm
#32 stodders:Afternoon Stodders, Burger/Smith were certainly good last year and Spies was on fire until he got injured. Its a shame for the Boks that Van Heerden wasn’t kept in the loop, he would’ve been perfect to slot in given the current plight.
29 Aug 2008, 15:00 pm
#37 RugbyRulz: Haskell and Rees are going to do a serious number on them in the Autumn
29 Aug 2008, 15:01 pm
#38 NZINCHINA: Thing is NZINCHINA, McCaw has been seen less at the breakdown this year than ever before. The ABs as a whole have improved their fetching at the breakdown. It’s not all down to McCaw anymore.
McCaw is still very effiicient in that area, but he appears to be targetting turnover opportunities more carefully. Hangover from Cardiff last year perhaps?
29 Aug 2008, 15:01 pm
#43 Big Hit:
Who and who?
29 Aug 2008, 15:02 pm
#35 stodders:
Yeah, look at how NZ players (forwards and backs present the ball when they go to ground) in addition to ‘protecting’ the ball.
It is no use you drive a player 5 meters off the ruck, you take yourself out of the game plus you leave a hell of a gap for someone to simply walk over or around and pick the ball up
29 Aug 2008, 15:02 pm
#41 Tacitus: Is it? You assume the coach would tell his forwards to swan in the backline. This is typical of a # 8 when covering holes but not for 2nd rowers or props. Seen too much of it.
29 Aug 2008, 15:02 pm
#13 lion4ever: yip. net so. NOU ****** DOEN DIT!!!!!!
29 Aug 2008, 15:03 pm
#41 Tacitus: Spot on. Too many forwards in the backline means the ball simply gets handed along the line – no one comes from deep to straighten the line or inject pace, so no space is created and the ball gets shuffled in to touch. That’s if we don’t turn it over first because there’s no one to clean out at the breakdown and protect the ball/scrum half. Insance approach.
29 Aug 2008, 15:03 pm
#38 NZINCHINA: The Bokke can be how sh*t, but they’ll never cheat.
29 Aug 2008, 15:03 pm
#41 Tacitus: Exactly my point, the coach give instructions and the players play according to those instructions. I just wish bloggers will all realize this and treat all the players the same.
29 Aug 2008, 15:03 pm
#43 Big Hit: I don’t know what the concept is Biggles, it has me stuffed.
29 Aug 2008, 15:04 pm
#34 Tacitus: onthou hy is nou wragtag groot…. spoed die het hy nog maar hysie skerp nie. die problem is daar’s ook nie tyd om aandag daaraan af te staan nie, die oefen beheptheid, gameontledings, weer span oefeninge, eet, weer span oefeninge, video sessies ens, ens laat bitter min tyd en ruimte vir iets anders soos individuele spoed oefeninge.
En ja dis n worry want almal is kragbehep – maar n ou moet verstaan om oor die voordellyn te kom (as dit v jou verwag word) moet jy kan houe vat. en klein outjies kannie.
Huidiglik is die gevaar dat spoed iets is wat buite seisoen gedoen word aangesien al die tyd nou afgestaan word aan gameplans en die uitvoering daarvan.
29 Aug 2008, 15:04 pm
Big Hit
Like what I’ve seen of Reese so far. And Noon in the backs too.
Talk to me about your hooker depth though.
29 Aug 2008, 15:04 pm
#44 stodders:
“Still very efficient”, yes you could say that Stodders.
29 Aug 2008, 15:04 pm
28 Tacitus,
Actually the players must shoulder as much crit as snor. This group of players is decidedly lacking in intelligence compared with NZ and Oz. As a player group they need to take as much ownership for their performances as the coach does.
How is it that we have seen other teams that have been dissatisfied with their coach and his plan still produce winning performances? In 2004 0r 05 the brumbies won the S14 despite falling out with their coach. It was the intelligence and leadership of guys like Gregan etc that allowed them to perofrm. We currently do not have smart individuals or string enough leaders in our team.
29 Aug 2008, 15:05 pm
Even if the boks perform well tomorrow against all odds, I would still not be happy. Old Moustache has killed the excitement in me. Thanks Snorpie.
29 Aug 2008, 15:05 pm
#50 It is just a game:
No they are angels aren’t they.
29 Aug 2008, 15:05 pm
#45 NZINCHINA: you know, Tom Rees, the guy that outplayed McCaw earlier this year.
#40 WP Till I Die: yeah fair enough, I haven’t seen enough of Grobbelaar to comment but it seems JVN has taken a back seat since signing with Toulon.
29 Aug 2008, 15:05 pm
#42 Big Hit: Burger and Smith are a proven flank combination, but they played best with a no.8 like Danie Roussow (sp?), not Spies.
Spies is great when you are playing second rate touring sides or lesser rugby nations, but he is yet to show that he can perform against the better sides in world rugby on a consistent basis. I think his best position long term is blindside flank.
29 Aug 2008, 15:06 pm
#28 Tacitus:
Good post.
I am just not sure whether the fact that Bekker, Matfield et. are all waiting to run at outside centre is really part of PdV’s gameplan or the players not doing what they are suppose to do. I also think that even if the forwards are all doing their primary job properly it would still be better to have a more balanced loose trio. If you look at the best international teams through the years they always seem to have a very balanced loose trio instead. In my view the trio Elsom, Smith and Palu is just about the best on the planet (a perfect balance of skills, power, speed,playmaking and fetching)
29 Aug 2008, 15:06 pm
#54 puff: Plenty of hookers in London to chose from
29 Aug 2008, 15:07 pm
#59 Big Hit:
No I don’t know him was he one of the alleged rapists?
29 Aug 2008, 15:07 pm
#53 Staal:
Ja. Wel al wat ek kan se – krag of te not – omtrent 4 Engelse verdedigers – Jonny Wilkonson ingesluit, het soos vrot velle van hom afgeval lank voordat die obsessie met ekstra “bulk” nagestreef is.
29 Aug 2008, 15:07 pm
#36 Ed_the_Lion:
Ja but White did not really left the door open to keep many friends in SARU thanks to his book.
29 Aug 2008, 15:07 pm
#56 ASAFP: The Brumbies scenario is quite different. The core of the team had been together for quite a while, so mutiny on the coach wasn’t as dangerous come finals time. Larkham divised quite a lot of the Brumby plays.
29 Aug 2008, 15:07 pm
#59 Big Hit: Outplayed him for 10 mins when England had their tails up. Well done him
29 Aug 2008, 15:08 pm
#54 puff: we’ve got Dylan Hartley who’s a very aggressive player and would’ve went to the 2007 RWC had he not been banned for gouging.
29 Aug 2008, 15:08 pm
#65 PissAnt: The truth hurts…
29 Aug 2008, 15:09 pm
#53 Staal: Are you sure with this comment:
“Huidiglik is die gevaar dat spoed iets is wat buite seisoen gedoen word aangesien al die tyd nou afgestaan word aan gameplans en die uitvoering daarvan”
If this is true the Boks will get unfit as they have no game plan so there is nothing to practice.
29 Aug 2008, 15:09 pm
#59 Big Hit: He’s a good player. He’ll be a very good one in 2011. But he’s no McCaw or Burger yet. Not even close. In fact, closer to home, Ally Hogg is a better player than him
29 Aug 2008, 15:09 pm
#61 Robzim:
So that is one fetcher (Smith), one ball carrier flank (Elsom) and one powerhouse no.8 (Palu)
Seems like we can tick 2 of those three boxes with our current loose trio, with just Schalk not making the cut as a fetcher.
29 Aug 2008, 15:09 pm
#68 Big Hit: Good player, Dylan Hartley – strong, solid in the tight and some very deft touches in the loose. A bit shaky in the lineouts though, but no doubt that can be improved upon …
29 Aug 2008, 15:09 pm
#68 Big Hit: That’s one…
29 Aug 2008, 15:10 pm
#71 stodders:
And he never will be.
29 Aug 2008, 15:10 pm
#60 stodders: I agree with you in part, but Spies did get a motm award in a game v NZ so he can perform.
#67 stodders: No, he outplayed him over the whole two tests, England consistently dominated the breakdown, it was the backs that gave way. The Haskell/Rees combo at the breakdown is unrivalled in world rugby.
29 Aug 2008, 15:11 pm
#72 Tacitus: I think you’ll find that in the loose and at the breakdown, the Ozzie tight five are more accurate in what they do than their Springbok opposites. Without that, Elsom, Smith and Palu would be very ineffective, just like the Ozzie loose trio were when they played last in Auckland.
29 Aug 2008, 15:11 pm
#64 Tacitus: ja, maar gee net kans – hou ons CC dop as daai manne terugkom. Hou hom dop. Dan weet hul dit wat v hul verwag word KANwerk.
Glo my ek verseker jou daai ouens kannie wag dat die 3N verby is nie want hul is gatvol!
29 Aug 2008, 15:11 pm
#76 Big Hit: He got MOTM playing blindside.
29 Aug 2008, 15:12 pm
Big Hit.
Give us your current ideal England 22, please. Thank you kindly.
29 Aug 2008, 15:12 pm
#76 Big Hit:
LOL. Unrivalled. OK.
29 Aug 2008, 15:12 pm
#70 Boerboel:
29 Aug 2008, 15:12 pm
#74 stodders: He’s not injury prone so should be ever-present and yes, Mears isn’t international standard.
#71 stodders: You just haven’t seen enough of him because he’s been injured. Rees is the business especially alongside Haskell, motm v scotland last year.
29 Aug 2008, 15:13 pm
#77 stodders: Out to lunch! Happens.
29 Aug 2008, 15:14 pm
#83 Big Hit: MOTM last year? Really? I didn’t think it was an Englishman that got MOTM in the game last year…
29 Aug 2008, 15:14 pm
watsie krieket score?
29 Aug 2008, 15:15 pm
#78 Staal:
Ek sien uit daarna. My groot opwinding is vir volgende jaar se S14. Dan is ons manne darem in ‘n omgewing wat hulle verstaan, en waarin hulle tuis voel.
Nie in die chaos wat die huidige Bokspan is nie. Ai, dink net die verkil as Heyneke nou coach was instede van Snor. Ai Ai Aaaaaaai!!!! Die huidige situasie is iets om van te walg.
29 Aug 2008, 15:15 pm
#86 Staal: Ons kak weer af…
29 Aug 2008, 15:15 pm
OK, sien 275/6 na 47.
29 Aug 2008, 15:15 pm
#79 stodders: The point still stands, he’s good enough if you can get the best out of him, young too.
#81 stodders: watch closely next time.
#80 puff: 1. Sheridan, 2. Hartley, 3. Vickery, 4. Shaw, 5. Kennedy, 6. Haskell, 7. Rees, 8. Narraway, 9. Ellis, 10. Wilkinson, 11. Simpson-Daniel, 12. Flutey, 13. Hipkiss/Noon 14. Sackey, 15. Tait
29 Aug 2008, 15:16 pm
#85 stodders: note the use of the word ‘year’ and not ‘season’
29 Aug 2008, 15:17 pm
That’s my point, they had brains in Larkham..we have butch! as for the core of the team, it’s not as though the group snor has had over the past month have been greenhorns! there are piles of players in this group that are experienced test players. I said it before and I’ll say it again…we lack brains and leadership. Big time. Throw a coach into the mix who is clearly a few bricks short of a wall and you get what we have now…poo
29 Aug 2008, 15:17 pm
BH
You don’t rate Borthwick or Flood?
29 Aug 2008, 15:18 pm
#83 Big Hit: Rees is a good player. Haskell is a good player. They are nothing more than yet. I watch quite a bit of Wasps and they are both very good when compared to the othe backrows in the GP.
However, the GP is not world rugby, and both have a way to go before they are seen as legitimate World XV players. By the way, I think Haskell is the better player overall, but he lacks the heart of Rees. Combine them and you’d have a very good player.
I don’t think England will have as much success at the breakdown as they did on their NZ tour in November.
29 Aug 2008, 15:18 pm
ok, this one’s for the boks …
It Couldn’t Be Done
by Edgar A. Guest
Somebody said it couldn’t be done.
But he with a chuckle replied,
That maybe it couldn’t, but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so ’till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with a trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried, he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done. And he did.
Somebody scoffed, “Oh, you’ll never do that
At least no one ever has done it.”
But he took off his coat, and he took off his hat,
And the first thing we know, he’d begun it.
With a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or “quit-it”.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t done. And he did it.
There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done.
There are thousands to prophesy failure.
There are thousands to point out to you, one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you
But just buckle in, with a bit of a grin;
Just take off your coat and go to it.
Just start in to sing as yout tackle the thing
That cannot be done–and you’ll do it!
29 Aug 2008, 15:18 pm
#87 Tacitus: yip, maar HM is history. ons moet bou op die toekoms en die feit dat ons jonger spanne soos Vodacom, en O/21 goed doen stig n ou baie. Jammer net vd Craven wek. maar HM kan dalk tog weer sy verskyning maak in die toekoms … maar NEVER by die bokke nie.
29 Aug 2008, 15:18 pm
#90 Big Hit:
Do you think England can save rugby as we know it by getting the ELV’s permanantly shelved?
If they were smart, they’d do their utmost – bribery, blackmail, secret agreements, anything – to get South Africa on their side. These rules don’t suit us anyway. Once the Tri-Nations alliance is broken, the ELV’s cannot stand. It will have to be revoked.
But we need to make it happen quickly. We have lost a whole season of good rugby so far. We don’t want to lose another one next year.
29 Aug 2008, 15:18 pm
#91 Big Hit: Fair enough. Two seasons ago is a lifetime in rugby though
29 Aug 2008, 15:20 pm
And Ellis? Is he really decent?
29 Aug 2008, 15:21 pm
#97 Tacitus: It would seem that the watered down version of the ELVs (13 ELVs being trialled with penalty rather than FK sanctions for offences as before) are going down well in the NH with the players in the pre-season games that have been played thus far.
Edinburgh put 3 tries past the much vaunted Wasps defence in a recent game, and coaches and players were positive about their impact.
time will tell if they maintain that point of view as the season progresses.
29 Aug 2008, 15:21 pm
#93 puff: I don’t really rate Borthwick other than in the lineout and the ELVs mean less of them. Flood is a top player and playing behind Meyer’s pack at Leicester could well take Jonny’s no.10 shirt for the AIs.
#94 stodders: If you watch the two-test series v NZ, those guys did a number on the NZ loosies at the breakdown. Nz were fortunate our backs were so **** at defending.
29 Aug 2008, 15:21 pm
#96 Staal:
Eendag – oor 20 jaar – gaan Hoskins nog sy outobiografie uitbring, en sy groot spyt uitspreek oor die rugstekery wat teenoor Heyneke plaasgevind het. Net soos Mallet nou groot genoeg is om te erken dat sy een groot fout was om Gary Teichman vir Bobby te drop.
Maar spyt kom altyd te laat. Bliksems. Die wiel draai, en julle tyd sal kom.
29 Aug 2008, 15:23 pm
BH
From an outsider’s perspective, give us your current ideal Bok 22.
29 Aug 2008, 15:24 pm
97 Tacitus,
Are you kidding! The ELV’s are the best thing to happen to Rugby in ages. We will adapt, we must adapt if we are to compete long term. The ELV’s make rugby more entertaining for the vast majority of spectators. Even Eddie moans admitted that. We need to be unselfish now and adapt to the changes in the game that improve the game. Entertainment will win out, we can stall this process but never impede it. We can eiher bite the bullet now or we will have to do it later.
29 Aug 2008, 15:24 pm
Or should I rather say interested observer?
29 Aug 2008, 15:24 pm
#90 Big Hit:
Personally I think the best XV would be:
1. Sheridan, 2. Hartley, 3. Stevens, 4. Shaw, 5. Kennedy, 6. Haskell, 7. Rees, 8. Ward-Smith, 9. Ellis/Care, 10. Cipriani, 11. Ojo, 12. Flutey, 13. Hipkiss 14. Sackey, 15. Lewsey
I would be tempted to put Wilkinson in at 10 to bolster the 10/12 channel. But in doing that, England would lose the greater attacking threat of Cipriani.
Wilkinson to start and control the game, Cipriani to come on after 60 mins and tear it apart.
29 Aug 2008, 15:24 pm
#103 puff:
15 random players. Different coach. That is the only improvement we need.
29 Aug 2008, 15:24 pm
#92 ASAFP: You are making ridiculous comparisons, you can’t do that. The Brumbies are a S14 team that play week in week out they are not a national team.
29 Aug 2008, 15:25 pm
#97 Tacitus:
…
motor vehicles is the devil’s invention
isnt it?
29 Aug 2008, 15:25 pm
The one thing we can atleast remind ourselfs off, is that we are the best and most successful WC team in the world.
29 Aug 2008, 15:26 pm
#101 Big Hit: Do you see Flood playing ahead of Mauger at Leicester? Meyer has gone on record in the past as saying he is a huge admirer of Mauger.
29 Aug 2008, 15:26 pm
#97 Tacitus: The free kick sanction is already gone, the NH has refused to trial it. I think the no passing back into the 22 rule might get shelved too because its increased aimless kicking and even the Kiwis are complaining about it. So with both of those gone there should be more lineouts and thus more structure again next season.
#100 stodders: Be clear Stodders, Scotland were always in favour of the ELVs because they like Australia are in financial difficulty so the fact Edinburgh beat Wasps in a pre-season friendly is bound to make them even more keen. However, England, Ireland and Wales are not keen on them and the papers in recent days have all the GP coaches complaining about how they’re being refereed. I see these complaints about reffing continuing long into the season and the ELVs to take a hit because of them.
29 Aug 2008, 15:26 pm
Tac
Similar players, if not the same. But a different coach, no doubt.
29 Aug 2008, 15:27 pm
#101 Big Hit: Kennedy is another Borthwick, only a better version. If the ELVs depower the lineout, the case for including Kennedy is reduced.
29 Aug 2008, 15:27 pm
#109 Ed_the_Lion:
agree!!
29 Aug 2008, 15:29 pm
#100 stodders:
agree
have seen some of the french teams play the elv’s and i dont see how they’re gonna complain about it!
29 Aug 2008, 15:29 pm
#72 Tacitus:
True, but as a combination the 3 also lack playmaking ability and flair. I mean, neither one of the can really pass a ball properly or set other players up. The best ballplayers in the current Bok pack seem to be Bekker and Matfield.
29 Aug 2008, 15:30 pm
Muppits – not so sure what you guys think but imo this Gold “my claim to fame.. ek het Wp afgerig” doesn’t install a lot of confidence… hell let’s hope i am wrong!
29 Aug 2008, 15:31 pm
#111 Big Hit: I think you’ll find that Scotland favours the ELVs because it allows smaller, more mobile packs to inject speed into their gameplans that will help them to run the bigger packs off their feet.
It has little to do with finances.
You read too many papers who are subjective rather than objective. Do you think Eddie jones would be complaining about the ELVs if he were still coaching in Oz? Of course he wouldn’t, because they suit the Australian rugby ethos better. Coaching in England however brings a whole different set of requirements, one that the trialling of the ELVs is upsetting.
29 Aug 2008, 15:33 pm
#102 puff: 1. Beast, 2. Du Plessis, 3. Smit, 4. Botha, 5. Matfield, 6. Burger, 7. Van Heerden, 8.Spies, 9. Du Preez, 10. James, 11. Habana 12. Steyn 13. Jacobs, 14. De Villiers, 15. Montgomery
#105 stodders: I wasn’t counting Cipriani as he was injured, he’d be thereabouts too, has to prove himself again after injury though. Lewsey isn’t a great 15 anymore imo. Stevens scrummaging was shown up in NZ. I like Ojo too but he’s been dropped to Saxons plus JSD is pretty good.
#110 stodders: Flood has started the first two games at 10 for Leicester against Ospreys and Biarritz and been excellent behind a dominant pack. I think Mauger will be the 12 with Hougaard and Flood duking it out for the 10 shirt. Depends how much Meyer likes the Safrican 10 really.
29 Aug 2008, 15:34 pm
ek is nie seker nie maar ek dink net DMuihr wat by die bokke betrokke is kom nie van nie kaap af nie…… selfs die ou wattie jockstraps uitspoel is die Arrow v Parrow? huh?
maar miskien moet hul maar vir DMuihr ook gelos het
smaak my hy weet ookie hoe nie.
aaag man … ek hoop ons wen more… soos Snorre sê… as ons clic gaat hul n pakslae kry!
29 Aug 2008, 15:36 pm
#119 stodders: Yes I believe Peter Wright has said as much.
29 Aug 2008, 15:36 pm
#121 Staal: As hulle nou net die bok truie wil wit en blou maak, dan gaan die verloor ook meer normaal lyk. Dan is ons ten minste gewoond daaraan
29 Aug 2008, 15:37 pm
#118 Staal:
Some info on Garry Gold for you:
London Irish announced today that they agreed to release its Head Coach, Gary Gold, from the final year of his contract with the club to enable him to take up a position as forwards coach of Investec Western Province.
Gold will join Western Province?s new Director of Rugby, Nick Mallett, at their Cape Town base later this month. Gary joined London Irish in July 2001 when he was appointed forwards coach by Brendan Venter. He played a key role in helping the club win its first national trophy in over a century when the Exiles won the Powergen Cup in April 2002. He was appointed Head Coach when Venter returned to South Africa at the end of the 2002-03 season. Over the past two seasons he has ensured the club maintained its Premiership status.
29 Aug 2008, 15:38 pm
#123 Ed_the_Lion: eina!
hel hul wen dalk vanand en dan is ek stil!
29 Aug 2008, 15:38 pm
#114 stodders: Thats a good point, how much they’ll be reduced is open to interpretation though as penalties can still be given and kicked to touch whereas in the SH they’d be free kicks. There’s no one else really.
#119 stodders: the GP coaches aren’t in favour stodders, that much has been made clear and that includes the Scottish Wasps coach McGeechan. I’m aware Eddie Jones has a gripe with the ARU for sacking him but Pat Lam has complained about them too just recently. The SRU is in massive debt and the game is dying up there, any change to the game is welcomed as a result.
29 Aug 2008, 15:39 pm
#125 Staal: Ja maar ek dink nie WP en my spannetjie gaan te ver kom hierdie jaar nie. WP is meer consistant. Verloor al hulle games, en die leeus is te wisselvallig. Ek dink albei spanne sal die huidige bok span kan wen.
29 Aug 2008, 15:39 pm
#124 Robzim: Thanks. Do you know if L-Irish might take him back?
29 Aug 2008, 15:39 pm
#120 Big Hit: Meyer loves Derick Hougaard.
I’m not a big fan of Flood at 10. I just don’t think he has the split second decision making and vision required to play there. Against in-form Cirpiani and Wilkinson he stands little chance of getting the no.10 gig for England IMO.
I would have thought he would have a fair chance of cementing the no.12 position for England. Only Barkley and international novice Flutey stand in his way. But that would mean he needs to play 12 for his club, and i don’t think he is better than Mauger currently.
29 Aug 2008, 15:42 pm
#125 Staal:
Ja, wat’s dit met die Bulle en aandgames? Daar was natuurlik net een uitsondering. Die best aandgame wat ek nog ooit gesien het, was toe die Bulle in 2005 vir die Auclkand Blues getrap het. Dit was toe Habana daai blitsige drie gedruk het, en toe direk van die afskop 50m langs die kantlyn af gehol en weer gaan druk het.
Daai arme vlagman was skoon pap gehol om by te bly.
Hel, dit was ‘n ongelooflike aand gewees. Maar behalwe sulke enkele games, sukkel die Bulle maar in die aand.
29 Aug 2008, 15:43 pm
#129 stodders: I think you’ll see a different Flood behind a Leicester pack. Lets face it they made Andy Goode look great at times and Flood’s a far better player than him. I don’t know about currently but Mauger was terrible last year. But like I said, Flood has been the business so far for Leicester at 10 by all accounts, so unless Meyer thinks Hougaard is head and shoulders above him, its his shirt.
29 Aug 2008, 15:45 pm
#126 Big Hit: Depends which GP coaches you listen to. Dean Ryan of Gloucester likes them, McGeechan of Wasps doesn’t. Mallinder of Saints likes them, Jones of Saracens doesn’t. Some do, some don’t. The fact of the matteris though, some of the ELVs are her eto stay, and some aren’t. That’s why they are being trialled. I only expect a handful, maybe 4 or 5 to be officially incorporated into the rugby laws.
29 Aug 2008, 15:45 pm
#130 Tacitus: wat v S14 semi’s vs Saders in 07?
29 Aug 2008, 15:46 pm
#119 stodders: (telegrah uk) :
Head of England’s referees says Premiership coaches are hostile towards changes in laws
With the spectre of a raft of new laws being foisted upon the game, Ed Morrison, the head of England’s referees, warned that coaches in the Premiership were hostile to the initiative.
“I’ve not met one Premiership director of rugby who would wish these laws upon the game,” said Morrison, who has had to spent a “vast amount” of time touring round clubs to clarify rulings and allay anxieties.
Even though Morrison was at pains to stress that had briefed his referees to be “positive and non-judgmental”, he has not succeeded in encouraging head coaches to be optimistic.
Saracens’ director of rugby, former Wallaby coach Eddie Jones, believes the International Rugby Board have plucked the experimental law variations (ELVs) “from a cornflake packet,” while Sale’s Philippe Saint-Andre has watched various games with increasing bafflement.
“Nothing is being refereed in the same way,” Saint-Andre complained. ”It’s been like a swimming pool at the breakdown, with arms all over the place. We don’t know what is happening.”
29 Aug 2008, 15:48 pm
#131 Big Hit: Mauger was terrible last year, but Leicester were pretty poor under Loffreda. I would expect Meyer, a better coach than Loffreda, to develop Leicester’s forward game to win good field position for their potent backline to chance their arm. In that environment, a player like Mauger will help Flood develop and will let the backline flow.
29 Aug 2008, 15:49 pm
#129 stodders:
You’ve also just described why Frans Steyn is not a genuine 10.
29 Aug 2008, 15:50 pm
#135 stodders: In fairness to Mauger he got better in the last few games and was making breaks again, some players need time to settle. I know Johnson has a Leicester bias, if you look at his coaching team its almost all Leicester, half the picked squad is Leicester with a biased call or two so I wouldn’t be surprised if Flood was playing well for him to get the 10 shirt ahead of Wilkinson.
29 Aug 2008, 15:52 pm
#136 David: Steyn makes split second decisions at 10 – usually the wrong ones. At 12 though, thats a creative asset because the opposition never know what he’s going to do next.
29 Aug 2008, 15:52 pm
#133 Staal:
Ek kon nie daai game kyk nie, weens ander baie belangrike verpligtinge. Het net die highlights gesien.
Maar ek onthou Pedrie se lopie want net kort van die doellyn gestop is, en Hougaard se akkurate skopwerk. Dit was meer ‘n “choke them out of the game bit by bit” tipe wedstryd, as ek reg onthou.
Vir my was die beste en mees opwindende wedstryd wat ek nog ooit gesien het, die week vantevore, toe the Bulle Eddie Jones se manne 92-3 geklop het. Maar dit was natuurlik ‘n middag game gewees. Nog nooit was ek so op my senuwees, en toe naderhand effens verlig, en toe naderhand effens hoopvol maar donners bekkommerd toe ons so tussen 20 en 40 punte gehad het, toe naderhand op die punt van my stoel, en hier teen die einde – toe ons verby 80 punte gaan – histeries en buite beheer van ongeloof en ekstase.
Wat ‘n wedstryd. Daar sal nooit weer so iets plaasvind in my leeftyd nie. Het my laat dink aan Ettiene Botha se finale drie in die Currie Beker eindstryd van 2005. Spesiale oomblike wat nooit herhaal sal word nie. Ek gaan kyk nou en dan na die Ettiene Botha tribute op Youtube. Dit eindig met daardie pragdrie. Baie sad, maar baie nostalgies ook.
Ai. Dit bly darem lekker om ‘n Bul te wees.
29 Aug 2008, 15:53 pm
#134 Big Hit: Looks like reinventing the wheel for the NH. The negativity reminds me of how South Africa at the beginning of the S14. Change is always tough going but we will never know what will be if we do not try.
I liked the post earlier about the motor vehicle #109 asha1:
I have always stated I don’t care if the ELV’s are here or gone as I do not think either NZ or OZ will go back to the slow game.
29 Aug 2008, 15:54 pm
#136 David: Stodders is right. Steyne is a 15… 13 possibly.
29 Aug 2008, 15:55 pm
#134 Big Hit: The article says coaches are against them, then it says that Morrison has only spoken to directors of rugby. Not a very accurate article.
And Saint-Andre’s gripe is the same as it has been for coaches under the new or old laws – refereeing inconsistencies. The ELVs don’t fix this. They haven’t made it worse either, especially as the free kick sanction for breakdown offences is not being trialled in the NH. The breakdown is being therefore policed under the old laws in the NH.
That suggests all is not rosey with the laws at the breakdown as they are, wouldn’t you say?
29 Aug 2008, 15:55 pm
#136 David: Oh let me change that… South Africa play the centre pairing the opposite way to Oz & NZ… To utilise Steyn in SA numbering he would be a 12.
29 Aug 2008, 15:57 pm
#142 stodders: The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Biggles how is it that the breakdown is the same yet the SAME referees can’t manage to be on the same page as last season?
29 Aug 2008, 15:58 pm
#137 Big Hit: Flood is “new” Leicester and never played with Johnson there, so maybe Johnson won’t select him because he doesn’t know him, unlike his other Leicester picks.
I think the whole English coaching setup apart from the defence coach is now ex-Leicester isn’t it?
29 Aug 2008, 15:59 pm
#143 RugbyRulz: well that makes more sense rulz. he has been tried at 13 at the sharks and it didnt work.
btw, what did you mean i “picked up the four more years” quote and ran with it the other day? i never mentioned it.
29 Aug 2008, 15:59 pm
#140 RugbyRulz: ‘I do not think either NZ or OZ will go back to the slow game. ‘
what do you mean by this specifically? a breakaway game? Henry wasnot said too be a big fan of th ELVs, hansen either and NZ are even playing like a NH team now with carter kicking every 2 mins.
29 Aug 2008, 16:01 pm
#139 Tacitus: Daai Saders game was iets om te sien en daai verslae gesig van Richie. Amper sos verslae soos JohnSmit in die S14 final.
Ou Heyneke het daar in sy kantoor net sy kop geskud die week daarna en met n helse smile na die fotos gekyk! Ou Wynie het vir my gesê hy begin sommer weer tjank as hy net daaraan dink. Yip – dit was groot.
29 Aug 2008, 16:01 pm
#143 RugbyRulz: You’re right. Steyn is a 12. He played well there in the world cup. The extra time he has in that position suits him. He is a good second play maker. He has good ball skills and is a very good offloader going into contact. He also has the size to tuck the ball under his arm and to crash into the opposition defence.
I think he should play there for SA, not at 15. I think JdV needs a rest. I wonder if it will take injury once again for the Bok coach to replace JdV with Steyn?
29 Aug 2008, 16:03 pm
Manne – eks netnou terug. gaat bietjie die Boland game kyk. Of die Boland gala.
29 Aug 2008, 16:04 pm
#76 Big Hit:
That was the meaningless game in Rustenburg that the ABs managed to still throw away.
If Spies wants to play 8, he must learn some skills for the position.
The best games he had were when Bob was at 7 and setting him up.
29 Aug 2008, 16:05 pm
#146 rangerman: No you borrowed Custard Ar$e
29 Aug 2008, 16:06 pm
Micro problems? LMFAO.
Here in lies the problem, they wotn admit there is a problem
29 Aug 2008, 16:06 pm
#145 stodders: Johnson rates Flood highly though, he said that during the WC when he was a commentator on ITV. And yep, only Ford isn’t Leicester.
#142 stodders: I can guarantee you the ELVs get the blame from more and more coaches as the season goes on if only because they lose games. They’re an unwanted disturbance (from a coach/owner’s perspective) to a steadily growing NH game (scotland aside).
#144 RugbyRulz: because the referee’s were told to ref it differently as seen in the England/NZ tests this year. Refs are supposed to now strictly blow against the team going off their feet at the breakdown whereas before this wasn’t enforced. Its still not being enforced in pre-season consistently so teams don’t know how they’re supposed to play, hence the complaints.
29 Aug 2008, 16:07 pm
#147 Big Hit: Never inferred a breakaway game, sorry if you thought that.
29 Aug 2008, 16:08 pm
#149 stodders: Yep, I said 15 because of JDV. Nice to know the kid could play either, rather well.
29 Aug 2008, 16:09 pm
#149 stodders: I agree with you stodders, JDV needs to move from 12, I wouldn’t rest him though, he’s a valuable line-breaker. Keep him on wing or impact sub. Not many teams would like to face JDV on 65mins when the game is tight.
29 Aug 2008, 16:10 pm
#154 Big Hit: Fair enough, we always get those silly bits at the beginning of the season. Give it a few weeks and they will sort it.
29 Aug 2008, 16:11 pm
#147 Big Hit: The same principles of rugby still need to be adhered to under the ELVs, as they did under the old laws, namely defence and territory.
Under the old laws, set piece possession is the best to attack from. Once at the second phase with a set defence, it is far more difficult to breach the defensive line. Under the ELVs, this still holds true, especially with the extra 5m at the scrum to attack with.
Under the old laws, possession was not important. Teams would sit back and defend, forcing their opponents into mistakes or effecting turnovers, from where they would strike off turnover ball. What has changed?
The main change has been in the amount of kicking. Under the old laws, time the ball was in play was lost when teams cleared from their 22m and the lineout was set. Now, the ball is “in play” in the same scenario because the kicker can’t kick out in the full. Under the old laws, there were more set piece lineouts, whereas now, there is more tactical kicking before teams can gain a territorial advantage. I think this will settle down a bit though as coaches get used to this ELV and come up with innovations to better make use of the broken field positions that present themselves.
The breakdown is still a mess though and refs are still getting too many things wrong. If the ELVs were brought about solely to fix these two areas, they have failed. But I think overall, they have brought some good things and bad, but most importantly, they have got people looking at our game and questioning how it should evolve.
Thoughts?
29 Aug 2008, 16:12 pm
#155 RugbyRulz: The way the voting works is that the opposition to the ELVs need 6 votes to throw each one out, England have two votes, Ireland 2, Scotland and France have two with other countries like Arg/Ita/Canada having one. Essentially, England needs Ireland and Wales to vote with it to block an specific ELV.
29 Aug 2008, 16:13 pm
#146 rangerman: It was a disgusting article by Keo… low inference. I knew it would bit him and in fact he was bent over for it.
29 Aug 2008, 16:14 pm
#154 Big Hit: The change in instructions to refs was not brought about by the ELVs though. Sadly, the ELVs bashers see it as an opportunity to stick the boot in, even though it was an IRB directive separate from the ELVs.
29 Aug 2008, 16:16 pm
#159 stodders: I think the 5m rule will stay, its not a bad law. The 22 rule might go because of the aimless kicking. I don’t like the new lineout laws personally, very messy. I pray the free-kick sanction isn’t adopted. All in all they’re not great the ELVs.
The breakdown is a tricky one, England were killed in Nz for going off their feet. This has always been the rule but it was never as rigidly enforced, I don’t see this being enforced consistently now if it wasn’t in the past and more confusion will ensue.
29 Aug 2008, 16:16 pm
#161 RugbyRulz: true but nothing to do with me.
i only rag vindicated.
29 Aug 2008, 16:18 pm
#164 rangerman: Yes I know, he is fun.
29 Aug 2008, 16:19 pm
#160 Big Hit:
i can see a scenario where each country will indentify the ELVs it likes and feel will benefit their game plan, and will then trade with other nations to get them included. Backhanders all round!
29 Aug 2008, 16:20 pm
#164 rangerman: Being an Aussie living in SA must indeed be hard for him. There can’t be that many. We have plenty of Saftralians.
29 Aug 2008, 16:23 pm
#162 stodders:
The instruction to clamp down more at the breakdown did coincide with the ELVs, although if the breakdowns had been policed more strictly under the old laws I doubt whether we’d have the problems we’re now getting. Another factor, I believe is the rather contradictory one for the refs that the ELVs are designed to improve the amount of time the ball is in play, yet a strict application has the opposite effect. I reckon some refs are too caught up in the “free flowing game” approach and not penalising frequently enough.
29 Aug 2008, 16:24 pm
#163 Big Hit: England were killed for going off their feet. Correct. They didn’t play to the ref’s interpretations of the law on the day.
since then, SA, Oz and NZ have all played tests where all of them have gone off their feet at the breakdown. In some tests, the refs have clamped down in it, and in some, the ref hasn’t. The team that won each game though was consistent. They were the one that changed their tactics at the breakdown to comply with the refereeing interpretations on the day.
I don’t like it that two refs can see the same situation and give two differing decisions. But that is the problem with laws. They are there to be interpreted by the ref gievn the situation in front of him, and therefore are completely subjective.
29 Aug 2008, 16:29 pm
#163 Big Hit: I like the 22m rule., I know there has been some ***** kicking but in time we will see pin point accuracy. You tell me JW won’t make a meal of it. He has a beautiful boot and can just about stop the ball on a dime. IMO it will improve the kicking game immensely in time.
29 Aug 2008, 16:30 pm
#169 stodders: I agree, thats where McCaw is excellent, he seems to be able to read the referee’s interpretation. NZ have won many games on the back of that imo.
#166 stodders: the clamp down on players going off their feet coincided with ELVs because as Jonathan Kaplan, the referee stated, the IRB want a faster game. But I agree, this clamp down could be bad for the ELVs.
#168 David: agreed, they weren’t refereed strictly before and they won’t be now by some refs. Just like the put-in at the scrum, refs get lazy.
29 Aug 2008, 16:32 pm
#168 David: I agree with you completely.
Refs were encouraged some time ago to “manage” the game better. This was to appease the sponsors, TV and the general viewing public.
They began giving even more instructions on the pitch to the players. Was this for the players benefit, or was it for the viewer at home to understand what was happening?
We now are at the point where a ref points out an indiscretion to a player and tells him to stop, like last week when Cordingley was committing a penalty at a ruck by playing the ball with his hands. The ref told him to stop, then CJ took the law into his own hands. Why didn’t the ref just blow his whistle against Cordingley for the original infraction without telling him what he was doing wrong first?
I truly believe that it is the refs and their management of the game that have led us to the current malaise at the breakdown. Players will always look for an edge, but the refs help them to find them by warning them not to commit an offence, or even worse, to stop doing it.
If refs were banned from talking on the pitch apart from to the team captains to explain decisions, and could only police the game through the whistle, it would be awful for a short period of time and there would be a plethora of yellow cards.
But I think, given time, it would get better in the long term, as players would have to take responsibility for their actions, would infringe less often for fear of censure, and the breakdown would clear up quickly.
29 Aug 2008, 16:32 pm
#171 Big Hit: Coincided, but was not part of the ELVs.
29 Aug 2008, 16:33 pm
#171 Big Hit:
Last week, Cordingly was spinning the ball at an angle under his hookers feet.
29 Aug 2008, 16:33 pm
#166 stodders: yep, it’ll be a whole of pushing and pulling with clandestine meetings based on all the nations selfishness. The only hope is that if they can all come to a consenus as to which ones are **** and which are ok.
#170 RugbyRulz: the choice is lineouts or aimless kicking, I don’t really care which we have because both are effectively stopping the game.
I forgot to mention I hate the collapsing maul rule. Even the NZers couldn’t understand that one.
29 Aug 2008, 16:36 pm
#174 David: All scrum halves worth their salt put spin on the ball…. OMG are you for real?
29 Aug 2008, 16:37 pm
#172 stodders:
That’s been my thoughts for a while. This managing actually encourages players to test the boundaries. What should have happened when they introduced the short arm was to also instruct the ref not to issue verbal instructions or warnings. The short arm should have replaced ref management.
29 Aug 2008, 16:38 pm
#175 Big Hit: Im undecided on the collapsing the maul rule. We really haven’t seen much of it., the mauls were almost non existent.
29 Aug 2008, 16:38 pm
#172 stodders: ‘But I think, given time, it would get better in the long term, as players would have to take responsibility for their actions, would infringe less often for fear of censure, and the breakdown would clear up quickly.’
I don’t think it ever would improve. You have to remember a lot of these players know they are breaking the laws, they think its worth it even if they give away a penalty. You could say if they were dealt with more harshly they’d stop but then people would start complaining about too many yellows and biased referees. I actually like the ‘managing’ of the game because it allows play to continue and promotes a free-flowing game imo.
29 Aug 2008, 16:38 pm
#174 David: All the Ozzie s/halves do it. To be honest, spinning the ball into a scrum is something you get taught at an early age, but it isn’t something you think you’ll get away with.
29 Aug 2008, 16:40 pm
#175 Big Hit: Pin point kicking is not necessarily for touch… A well placed kick is just outside the 22 and between players
29 Aug 2008, 16:40 pm
#178 RugbyRulz: The Tri-nations has been virtually maul-free and so were the Top 14 games I seen under ELVs. The thing is, mauls tie in defenders and create space out wide for tries. I know the Australians hate them though. Ironically, Robbie Deans employed them a lot at Crusaders.
29 Aug 2008, 16:41 pm
#178 RugbyRulz: Funnily enough, collapsing the maul affects Australia more than it does the other SH nations. The Wallabies may still be sh*t scrummagers (when forced to scrum and not allowed to collapse for the umpteenth time), but they lead the way in the SH as exponents of the rolling maul.
With Jim Williams back from Munster as forwards coach, the legal sacking of the mauls will hurt the Wallabies.
29 Aug 2008, 16:42 pm
#180 stodders: I believe if you watch ALL scrumhalves you will witness they all do it throughout a game. It is not specific to Australian halves.
29 Aug 2008, 16:42 pm
Just remember all the kicking in the WC, and that was under the old rules. It gives a team the possibility of a mistake by the receivers and is here to stay.
29 Aug 2008, 16:42 pm
#181 RugbyRulz: Very true. Oz in the first Bledisloe test kicked very well. The ball was landing a metre outside the NZ 22 with 3 players smashing him when he hit the ground. Technically brilliant kicking. The ABs then returned the favour in Bledisloe 2.
29 Aug 2008, 16:43 pm
#181 RugbyRulz: the ELVs were supposed to promote more ball in hand though, instead of lineouts there was supposed to be more running the ball back, but the risk is too great now of getting turned over and teams kick it back instead. As the Ireland coach said, you’re going to need a lot more kickers under ELVs, this isn’t what was intended.
29 Aug 2008, 16:43 pm
#182 Big Hit: No Biggles the Aussies do not hate mauls at all, you are quite wrong there. I just don’t know why they were not a part of the S14 or the TriNations to date.
29 Aug 2008, 16:43 pm
#184 RugbyRulz: Yeah, but it;s nice to pin another cheat to the Wallabies
29 Aug 2008, 16:44 pm
#187 Big Hit: I agree with you there, I am finding a lot more kicking for sure.
29 Aug 2008, 16:45 pm
#183 stodders: If thats really the case, then who wanted this collapsing maul law? I’m not sure I buy that stodders.
29 Aug 2008, 16:45 pm
#189 stodders: I do believe this site calls it ‘Street Smarts’ <<< I find that a hoot.
29 Aug 2008, 16:46 pm
#185 David: The kicking in the RWC was for the same reason, teams were scared of losing the ball. It didn’t generally happen outside of World Cups. Its even worse now though.
29 Aug 2008, 16:47 pm
#185 David: It’s called risk free, simpleton rugby. Argentina employed a simple yet effective gameplan in the world cup. It worked a few times, but when they came up against a team that could take the high ball and play – Boks – they had nothing more to give.
I mean, the Pumas nearly lost to Scotland, and really should have if Scotland had played rugby from minute 1 rather than minute 71.
29 Aug 2008, 16:49 pm
#191 Big Hit: I don’t know who wanted the legal collapsing of the maul But I do know it is one ELV the Wallabies don’t like.
29 Aug 2008, 16:49 pm
#193 Big Hit: If the 22 rule stays that will ensure the SH teams kick the dimples off the ball just as the NH always has. Hmmm that should just about hone the SH skillset.
29 Aug 2008, 16:49 pm
#194 stodders:
Waar kry julle die krag om so in diepte rugby te bespreek op ‘n Vrydag middag.
29 Aug 2008, 16:49 pm
#196 RugbyRulz: Joking mates.
29 Aug 2008, 16:50 pm
#194 stodders: Argentina lost that on intercepts, not on having the ball played back to back to them. I agree though, Hadden’s men should’ve beaten them but argies were tired they had a harder schedule than everybody else.
29 Aug 2008, 16:53 pm
#195 stodders: Well that should be another one buried then because no one else likes it either.
29 Aug 2008, 16:56 pm
#193 Big Hit: Why the surprise. In most other ball sports, possession is paramount. Rugby league, Australian Rules, Grid Iron. What is consistent with these sports? The lack of opportunity for the ball to be contested.
Rugby and soccer share a similarity. The team that controls the majority of possession does not automatically have the best chance of winning. Both sports require strong defences and an ability to counter attack. Many a time have we seen teams win on barely 30 or 40% possession because of strong defence.
Rugby is becoming a more risk averse sport. The ABs have played less risky rugby this year and have concentrated on their defence. I suggested after Cardiff 07 that the ABs may look to go back to the style of play that they became famous for. They appear to have done just that. It isn’t pretty at times, but it is effective and more often than not it wins you high pressure rugby matches.
There is still a place for attack minded rugby, but it gets smaller each year. Strong defence, territory and several individuals to create opportunities are what modern rugby is now all about. Sadly.
29 Aug 2008, 16:57 pm
#200 Big Hit: Its a lucky dip Biggles. When the trials are over and the feedback comes in we will have the same old game or the same old game with a few tweaks. Either way we still have the best game on earth as it is played in heaven.
29 Aug 2008, 16:59 pm
#201 stodders: Thats called structure, I thought SA liked that.
29 Aug 2008, 16:59 pm
#199 Big Hit: Intercepts forced by the Bok offensive defence.
England succumbed to the same offensive defence in the final. The Boks forced England to have the ball and challenged them to create. England would have much preferred the Boks to attack them I think. The Boks won the battle of wills, and it was the team with the most possession once again that lost.
29 Aug 2008, 17:00 pm
The All Blacks went back to the less risky rugby because they found they didn’t have the backs anymore to compete with Aus at the running game. They had no intention of going back to that style until that happened. i think they might play expansive in the NH, because they won’t be able to compete with the England pack playing a tight game.
29 Aug 2008, 17:00 pm
#203 RugbyRulz: When the ball is kicked under the ELVs, there is no structure. That’s why SA struggle IMO.
29 Aug 2008, 17:01 pm
#203 RugbyRulz: One of the reasons SA struggle I should have said.
29 Aug 2008, 17:01 pm
#205 Big Hit: how will they not be able to compete with the Eng pack ?? seriously … Somerville showed up Sheridan when he was here this year…
29 Aug 2008, 17:03 pm
#202 RugbyRulz: No doubt.
#204 stodders: I think England went into the game with the wrong mindset. They wrongly assumed the Bok forwards were better and that they themselves had to be the creative side. It wasn’t true however and trying to create cost them a penalty when Wilkinson tried to go wide to Matt Tait in his own half with Tait slipping. the lineout killed us though as did Vickery’s injury which meant no dominance in the scrums.
29 Aug 2008, 17:04 pm
#208 poppa69: he didn’t actually, the other guy (Afoa?) showed up Stevens. The Beast beat Somerville last time out. Btw, isn’t Somerville gone after this 3N?
29 Aug 2008, 17:06 pm
#210 Big Hit: not from my recollections, Sheridan was very ordinary when he was down here… I think Somerville may be gone (he is advancing in years) but to say the NZ forwards wont compete against the Emglish is just silly…. Our forwards have outplayed their Bok counterparts, even with the new blood…
29 Aug 2008, 17:07 pm
#211 poppa69: but then, we may send a development side …
29 Aug 2008, 17:08 pm
as a kid , the achievement of a grand slam over the 4 home unions was a big big thing, nowadays its common practice.. Thanks WC for that ….
29 Aug 2008, 17:09 pm
#211 poppa69: Sheridan only played one game, he was hyped up by your media and Graham Henry but he’s a prop at the end of the day, he’s not going to win you a game on his own. His side held up, he didn’t dominate his opposite number but he didn’t go backwards either. Stevens got owned tho.
29 Aug 2008, 17:10 pm
#212 poppa69: I don’t think so, not when nz are complaining at France for doing the same thing.
#213 poppa69: You should play France too then instead of organising a game with Munster
29 Aug 2008, 17:10 pm
#205 Big Hit: The Wallabies backline has more often than not always been better as a unit than the ABs.
The ABs have had better individuals during that time however.
Yes, the ABs reverted back to less risky rugby partly because they lost several highly skilled ball players from their backline (Mauger, McAllister), but I also think Henry got burned by trying to show that a world cup could be won by a team who saw attack as more important than defence.
The ABs have a highly combative forward pack, they have a mobile, powerful back row, in Cowan and Carter they have a halves partnership that kicks well and can control the game, the midfield is direct and solid on defence, and they have a functional back 3 that chase hard when the kick chase is employed.
It’s a throw back to the 60s, 70s and 80s. The flashy play has been replaced by pragmatism. How many 50/50 passes have you seen this year from the ABs since they have employed these tactics? I’ve not seen many. The last ones were in the defeat to Oz in Sydney. Since then, they have been brutal and efficient.
They won’t win any try of the year contests playing this way, but I don’t think Henry wants to take the risk at the moment. He wants to play winning rugby. They will probably get better and will probably begin playing a bit more expansively next year. At the moment, they are winning games by playing as a team, executing the basics better than the opposition and relying on the odd moment of brilliance from their stars to put the icing on top.
29 Aug 2008, 17:11 pm
#210 Big Hit: Tialata beat up Stevens. Sommerville propped against Sheridan and out scrummed him on points. I think the damage was being done on Stevens side though in fairness.
29 Aug 2008, 17:13 pm
#215 Big Hit: Playing Munster is a brilliant idea. It brings back some of the traditions of the old tours.
29 Aug 2008, 17:13 pm
#215 Big Hit: well, bout time we hurt the NH unions by sending substandard teams (sound familiar?? )… why play France, they were never included in a “grand slam” … see, the power that the clubs in the NH wield is quite alarming… France didnt send a strong side because of their club finals WTF .. isnt international rugby more important ? or is it only 6 weeks every 4 years that it matters ?? not going to attract new fans by having constant mismatches….
29 Aug 2008, 17:15 pm
#219 poppa69: Maybe NZ should play the top NH club teams and provinces?
29 Aug 2008, 17:19 pm
#218 stodders: Attempting the Six nations Grand Slam is an even better idea especially as Munster will be weak with players out.
#219 poppa69: the French season is ridiculous, they only finished their season a few weeks ago and now its starting again. They need to get i started.
29 Aug 2008, 17:19 pm
#221 Big Hit: *they need to get it sorted
29 Aug 2008, 17:25 pm
#220 stodders: harking back to the good old days I think stodders…
#221 Big Hit: but can you guarantee that the NH teams will have their top sides out ? thats the thing now, look at Scot in the WC, the games showpiece and they play a second string side… its this dilution that really irks me…
and agreed, the French really need to sort it , but will the club owners let them ?
29 Aug 2008, 17:32 pm
Our biggest concern is one Peter with the word ‘strategy’ on his back. Tough to figure out, even our own players and asst coaches struggle with it.
29 Aug 2008, 17:32 pm
#223 poppa69: NH teams almost always play their best available in the November tests.
It is their only chance to blood the players into the game plan in a match environment prior to the 6Nations next year, which for most is where their focus is on. The only time this wasn’t true was for England under Woodward, who saw the matches against the SH nations as the priority to instill a belief that England were as good, if not better, than the SH nations. It worked.
As for the Scots not playing their top stars, NZ didn’t either during the world cup. The thing that set Scotland and NZ apart is that NZ’s squad was strong throughout, whereas it was quite clear who Scotlan’s 1st XV were. When NZ rotated, little was lost in terms of playing ability. When Scotland rotated, alot was lost!
29 Aug 2008, 17:34 pm
Looks like the Proteas are determinedly following in the Boks footsteps with the ODIs.
29 Aug 2008, 17:34 pm
#223 poppa69: Yeah, they’d have a good team out at home in the Autumn international window, its just the end of year tours that get treated with disrespect for some reason.
I’m not sure if the club owners will let it happen. i think a lot of the clubs are part owned and financed by the local councils in France tho
29 Aug 2008, 17:39 pm
#227 Big Hit: Big hit – how are the folks taking EJ’s speech re ELV’s? Could this be the push the NH needed to really give IRB the finger, and refuse that route? If I was IRB, I would consider scrapping the term ELV, take 2-3 rules that all will likely agree to and implement, then walk away from anything remotely sounding like experimental. Unite rugby again, then make sure to implement SOMETHING to ensure refs are on the same page. Of course the intepretation of the 2-3 rules have to be clearly spelt out..
29 Aug 2008, 17:40 pm
#227 Big Hit: ok thought the French clubs were privately owned, my mistake…
#225 stodders: wasnt having a dig at Scot there Stodders, but understand the point you make..
Therefore i think the IRB need to make points available for every “test” match, and have this as a way of qualifying to make the WC… surely if each sanctioned test or series had another aspect to it (i.e 2 points given to the winning side, top 20 sides qualify) , think this would stop the practice of sending weakened teams, and that can only be a good thing …
29 Aug 2008, 17:40 pm
#225 stodders: yeah, they blooded Barclay v New Zealand, a great prospect but goes to show the strenght of the outfit they sent out.
29 Aug 2008, 17:46 pm
#229 poppa69: for example, the 3Ns this year , the 3rd test each country plays against each other could be worth the 2 points… would add a little more spice to tomorrows game as well, knowing qualification points were on the line…
29 Aug 2008, 17:47 pm
#228 Expatinus: Its all over the papers, but I think people will judge on the rugby. I agree with your idea, everyone should just agree on the good ones, they’re pretty obvious at this point anyway.
29 Aug 2008, 17:54 pm
One law I would like to see is that kicking for goal is only allowed for penalties inside the 25, and then in front of the post as in soccer. This will, at least, allow the refs more leeway to penalise without giving away 3 points and also hit the defending team for cynical transgressions Which, I may add, the ABs have been masters at for years.
29 Aug 2008, 17:56 pm
#233 David: but then you negate Engs style of play as well
as for the AB’s , they are masters at playing to the limit of the law.. 
29 Aug 2008, 17:57 pm
I see McCain has chosen a rather gorgeous looking lady as running mate. I’d vote for her.
29 Aug 2008, 17:58 pm
#234 poppa69:
That should read “exploiting” the limits of the law.
29 Aug 2008, 17:59 pm
#235 David: whats her name , will have to google it … ?
29 Aug 2008, 17:59 pm
#236 David: you call it exploiting , I call it “understanding” lmao
29 Aug 2008, 18:01 pm
#237 poppa69:
Sarah Palin, the governor of Alaska
29 Aug 2008, 18:02 pm
#233 David: As have England tbh, but I like long range penalties. They’re exciting imo
29 Aug 2008, 18:02 pm
#237 poppa69:
Check the bbc news site. There’s a pic of her there.
29 Aug 2008, 18:03 pm
#241 David: will do..
29 Aug 2008, 18:04 pm
Boucher clean bowled, 114/5
29 Aug 2008, 18:05 pm
#238 poppa69:
I’m referring to deliberately conceding a penalty, especially out wide, rather than a try. Very few refs are prepared to blow a professional foul for at least 4 or 5 occurences.
29 Aug 2008, 18:07 pm
#244 David: seems it has to be within a possible try scoring move (ala barnes) before they will take any action….
and she isnt too bad for a 45 year old woman…
29 Aug 2008, 18:34 pm
The Aussies had the Boks for main course last weekend
This weekend its time for dessert – And guess whats on the menu ??
Custard
29 Aug 2008, 18:40 pm
#246 vindicated: Vinnnie I think it could go the other way tomorrow.
29 Aug 2008, 18:49 pm
#247 AB: well maybe if they forgot to have starters it might
But dessert normally follows the main meal
29 Aug 2008, 18:51 pm
Fascinating discussion with some good educated comments, vindi excluded but that’s not new. I wonder if the evermore complex and open to interpretation laws being introduced into rugby won’t do it damage at the lower levels. This is at school or club where a ref that knows all the variations simply cannot be found, so we’ll play soccer instead. Already rugby, even more than cricket, is a big fish in small pond thing (hence NZ’s dominance he he). I don’t see complicated rule changes widening its appeal. Certainly for me the gaining grounds kicking and abominable refs makes me want to go and ride my mountain bike or dirt bike.
29 Aug 2008, 18:51 pm
#248 vindicated: I think I am more of a heart man on this issue and hope for just one little surprise’ not too much to ask wouldnt you say?
29 Aug 2008, 19:54 pm
#232 Big Hit: I’m not 100% up to speed on technically exactly what the ELV’s are, and what the good ones are…only saw approx 5 S14 games this year, and not much of the recent rubble, care to share?
If you had to pick the 3 ELV’s going permanent, what are they?
29 Aug 2008, 20:03 pm
#251 Expatinus: there’s some good discussion on the ELVs on this thread, the main ones are the new lineout laws (numbers don’t matter anymore), the no passing back into 22 rule, the collapsing maul rule (you’re now allowed to), the 5m rule and the free kick sanction.
The 5m rule at scrums, lineout laws and no passing back into 22 are likely to discussed with a good chance of being made permanent.
29 Aug 2008, 20:17 pm
#252 Big Hit: tend to agree BH… think they are the 3 that actually do help the game… could probably get rid of the no numbers in the lineout, thus ensuring more space if teams elect to use a full lineout….
29 Aug 2008, 20:29 pm
#253 poppa69: yep
29 Aug 2008, 21:06 pm
#248 vindicated: Victoria you really do go on and on.
29 Aug 2008, 21:11 pm
#253 poppa69: I agree. But the rolling maul is terribly boring. The original idea was that it had to be stopped , and then collapsed – this is a good idea.
Other than that, I agree with the Big Hitter – helter skelter free kicks is too fractured and fragmented to add value.
29 Aug 2008, 21:29 pm
An interesting perspective from Planet Rugby. If you’re good enough you’re old enough.
Australian rugby is in rude health. Despite the eventual failure of the U20 team at the recent Junior World Championship, there were a host of names involved who are already either commanding or demanding regular starting spots in their Super 14 franchises.
A look at Saturday’s starting line-up also shows an exuberant vein of relative youth running through the side. The large proportion of Saturday’s starting line-up is in its early to mid-twenties, meaning that come New Zealand time (and assuming it sticks together) it will be a collection of experienced heads full of leadership, and bolstered by the likes of, say, Luke Burgess, Kurtley Beale, Quade Cooper, Sam Wykes, David Pocock, Richard Brown, etc. etc.”
29 Aug 2008, 22:24 pm
The difference between a coach and a GOOD coach is that the good coach adapts to the law changes faster than anyone else and coaches his men to exploit every advantage the law change offers.
The SA coaches are unable to think this out all on their own.
They sit back and wait to see what the antipodean coaches dream up, and then they try to copy what they’ve seen.
It’s like having to have a good joke explained to you. It simply can’t be as funny as it would be if you didn’t need that explanation.
29 Aug 2008, 22:33 pm
#257 TheTackler:
Explain?
29 Aug 2008, 22:51 pm
#257 TheTackler:
Another diffrence is, is that the **** coach insists on a four year contract & a world cup winning salary before accepting it because its only a matter of time before he’s found out to be an idiot & so needs to make sure that the early pay out is as much as possible.
29 Aug 2008, 23:10 pm
Even die hard supporters get to a stage where there are discussions on whether they sort of hope their team gets a hiding so the coach’s position becomes completely untenable.
For Ireland after the WC people really wanted change and ir took far too long
How many die hard SA fans are openly/secretly hoping Oz do a number in the next game?
30 Aug 2008, 08:18 am
#5 Tacitus: Yup the Oz first team are probably already doing drills for AB … this usless dic* is just underlining his level.
30 Aug 2008, 08:44 am
#171 Big Hit:
I will presume that that is a defacto admission that Kiwis are intellectually superior to Opium Pushing Slave Traders. Lol!!!!
30 Aug 2008, 08:56 am
I think that most are overlooking the politics of the IRB and the ELV’s. From time immemorial, the IRB has been dominated by the **** nations, because of the racist Gerrymander. This is possibly the first time that they have been over-ruled on anything. Most of the NH whinging is coming from the Opium Pushing Slave Traders, who are pissed that they are not running the game, from the bottom of their gin bottles.
This is a precedent and hopefully the OPST’s will get so upset that they will leave the IRB, allowing it to re-invent itself as a democratic organization, with the best interest of rugby as its focus.
Whinge all you like. The rest of the world does not care for your tyrannical and racist arrogance.
30 Aug 2008, 10:32 am
#257 TheTackler: Tackler our coach then was much better than you coach last year then? We never copied your coach thank goodness see what it brought us a World cup.
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.