From the penthouse to the shithouse
17 Nov 2008
The drop in form for the world champion Boks – and in particular 2007 IRB player of the year Bryan Habana – has been dramatic.
In Edinburgh this morning the talk is rightfully of heroism, bravehearts and lost opportunity. The Scots, ranked ninth in the world, were a try away from upstaging the world champion Springboks. In South African cities the rugby talk rightfully is of disgust at the performance of the Springboks.
One country’s support base had no reason to believe a victory was possible, while the one in which we live had no reason to believe defeat to the sad Scots was a possibility.
Scotland are an ordinary side, so any attempt to justify or applaud this Springbok performance must be rubbished. This was no come from behind win; it was an insult to what was achieved by many of the same players a year ago.
Something has to be seriously wrong when Bryan Habana, the player of the year in 2007, is substituted 30 minutes before the end on successive weekends, and the only surprise is that he wasn’t yanked 30 minutes into the respective matches.
It is becoming tiresome, not to mention repetitive, to hear the players, in their post-match summary, talk of how they went back to a structured game plan at halftime and how they focused on doing the basics and playing to a style that complimented their strengths.
The players may mean well, but in attempting to articulate the performance they condemn the coaching staff because the words are those of players at odds with the coaching philosophy.
This is not a healthy Springbok side. They don’t have the aura of a year ago and it is because they don’t have the fitness, confidence, discipline and self-belief of the side that effortlessly arm-wrestled all opposition at the World Cup. They also don’t have the intellectual capital in what is a very inexperienced coaching trio.
There has been no rebuilding of the side, so that can’t be an excuse, and there has been no growth.
The Boks, for all their failings, may squeeze past England on Saturday, but again it will be more reflective of the limitations of the opposition than any South African revival.
The continued doublespeak in game plan; the contradictions in romance and realism; have left loose-forwards on the wing, locks in the midfield and props at first receiver, with the occasional clean out at the ruck coming from a wing, centre and flyhalf.
South Africa’s strength is physicality at the breakdown and dominance in contact. Against Scotland players attacked as individuals, got isolated and were often turned over, and when the Boks did get numbers to the breakdown there was no discipline. Put bluntly, there was no plan as a team or for individuals, especially Habana, who internationally has gone from the penthouse to the shithouse.
Habana’s decline is alarming and if he is not injured then it must rank as among the more dramatic reversals of form. Currently he can’t catch a ball, run a support line or even make an intercept count, and to see a novice Scottish winger beat him on the outside, much as Welsh wizard Shane Williams did earlier this season, is more mystifying than it is embarrassing for Habana.
Habana should not be playing against England because his form does not warrant inclusion ahead of Jonge Nokwe. A few others should also not be playing against England, but the insular selection policy that picks Brian Mujati ahead of the northern hemisphere-based CJ van der Linde and BJ Botha and Earl Rose ahead of Bath’s Butch James means some of South Africa’s best players will watch Saturday’s Test from the stands at Twickenham.
Fourie du Preez’s injury means there is a scrumhalf crisis, but a bit more innovative thinking could have turned a mishap into an opportunity with the selection of Saracens and former Stormers scrumhalf Neil de Kock, who has consistently been the best scrumhalf in England for the last three seasons.
That, however, would require having a plan – and like with Habana, if there is such a thing I know I am not alone in failing to see it.
These are disturbing times for the Boks because damage is being done now that will only come to the fore when the British and Irish Lions tour South Africa next June.
692 Comments
17 Nov 2008, 10:30 am
Dragon ****!!
17 Nov 2008, 10:30 am
First ?
17 Nov 2008, 10:32 am
Ah Keo, trust you to lead your young impressionable cohorts with a call to journalistic arms with the title of this thread!
17 Nov 2008, 10:34 am
Spot on 100 %. The coaches are out of their depth.
17 Nov 2008, 10:34 am
Good article Keo. Even if the Boks win all of their matches on tour, their performances are giving the Lions management more than enough ammunition to believe they can guide the Lions to another series victory next year.
17 Nov 2008, 10:34 am
Habana is no more Dragon
17 Nov 2008, 10:35 am
#4 Zulushark: Maybe the players overachieved last year? Maybe their current standards are their true standards?
17 Nov 2008, 10:36 am
Correct.
Some tough calls need to be made, in fact, they should have been made a while back.
Habana has been **** for just about every team he played this, so rather than just looking at it in isolation for the Boks is stupid, he has been far from the player was for the Bulls as-well.
Then rather look at the player, and figure out what has gone wrong with him, than trying to find fault with the Bok coaching staff.
And so to we can look at many current Boks.
Why is Jean and Adi playing the rugby of their careers? Even under a ‘doomed Bok game plan’ (according to some) and players like Habana, Spies, James, Juan and Schalk is playing like ****?
PDV needs to make these calls now if he wants to succeed – get rid of the deadwood and players not committing to the team or team cause – or he must just call it a day.
To see these guys on the field is becoming an embarrassment.
17 Nov 2008, 10:37 am
#3 stodders:
Which part of the article are you disputing?
17 Nov 2008, 10:37 am
Great article – some may say it has a certain bias but for me you have not gone far enough Keo. Schalk is way off the boil and has been for a long time. Juan barring the last two tests has looked tired. As for Spies this man is way off his former glories.
I agree with Zulu too not sure the caoches – note plural – have a clue.
17 Nov 2008, 10:37 am
The job is just to big for PDV.
17 Nov 2008, 10:38 am
Keo, the coaching is the problem – the players don’t beleive in Piet Pienkdas – he does not install confidence in the players like a Jake White, Nick Mallet or Markgraaff would have. We are paying the price for a transformation decision to pick a coach who is a complete idiot. I’m not surprised at all with the situation that we find ourselves in. The Proteas suck big time.
17 Nov 2008, 10:40 am
#7 stodders:
Man, I love those Scots.
And by the way … greetings HM Keo from you gathered loyal subjects.
You know mos we hang on your every word. Literally.
17 Nov 2008, 10:40 am
#7 stodders:
You know as well as I do that to achieve constant successs at this level, the game plan needs to be one which is endoresed by ALL concerned. Right now the coaches has something in mind, and the senior players something else.
I say run by all means, but do the hard yards first. This means taking 8 of the opposition out of the game – their forwards. They must be on the backfoot, then the spaces sill open up for them – look at the sharks this CC.
Hows the latest addition enjoying the windy city ?
17 Nov 2008, 10:40 am
#8 PissAnt:
Yeah sure. Get rid of all the top players. That’s a real good strategy, Einstein.
Sorry for the bite in that first sentence, but I really disagree with your argument.
If we do as you suggest, we will be left with only the players that agree with Snor’s strange vision.
And why? After having a team that was on top of the world before Snor came into the picture?
17 Nov 2008, 10:41 am
The coach is really out of his depth and it is being exposed terribly at the moment
17 Nov 2008, 10:43 am
I did see one smart move of Snor on Saturday. Just a pity he replaced Habana 50 minutes too late.
17 Nov 2008, 10:43 am
one sh*t lost annd it all doom gloom??
17 Nov 2008, 10:44 am
#8 PissAnt: Belaglike stellings wat jy maak – jy wil die top spelers uitgooi – wie wil jy vir Puke in jou span he, dalk Piet Pienkdas op skrumskakel?
17 Nov 2008, 10:44 am
#12 World Cup:
Agree, the batting line up of the Proteas suck.
17 Nov 2008, 10:44 am
#8 PissAnt:
well said!
17 Nov 2008, 10:45 am
Habana is shocking it’s true, but why? Was he brilliant in the CC and then **** in the EOYT? Look towards Ludekak for the answers.
17 Nov 2008, 10:46 am
#19 World Cup: Ten minste as Snor skrummie speel gee hy nie twee/drie tree voor hy die bal uitgee nie.
17 Nov 2008, 10:46 am
Sad ver sad indeed , not much to say but yes Habanna should go on a long holliday . January must learn not to speak to much to the ref. But eish , the handling errors was bad.
17 Nov 2008, 10:46 am
I don’t know what SA rugby was thinking when they employed PDV. I played for the falcons under 21′s when he was coaching the Falcons team. Even then the falcons struggled, he gave us the worst advise ever possible, which made our scrum vulnerable. In my opinion he is not good enough, thats just that
17 Nov 2008, 10:46 am
#20 Kalahari Kid: Batting is fine – the bowling sucks.
17 Nov 2008, 10:48 am
#7 stodders:
The most successfull teams of the past have all had one thing in common, other than they are not all the best players in their positions, and that is they believe 100% in their coach (who is generally a disiplinarian) and his game plan. This leads to heightened self confidence and great self belief. Once you have this going for you, the tough times can be handled quite comfortably. I don’t think the boks are enjoying this aspect at the moment.
17 Nov 2008, 10:48 am
BJ Botha has laast laugh
17 Nov 2008, 10:53 am
#25 Against Luke the Puke:
yeah
and i played for the u21 whilest he was there
and i know from experience that the guy’s a visionary!
17 Nov 2008, 10:53 am
#28 greatest13gerber:
why?
17 Nov 2008, 10:55 am
#28 greatest13gerber:
It amazing how the wheel turns. The one are where they could not afford a injury was in the front row and now we have two and a replacement t/h in mujati who my son could push off the ball.
17 Nov 2008, 10:55 am
#15 Tacitus:
Don’t tell me you buy into this aura kak too?
It is an old argument but I will rehash it quickly.
What aura was there in a team and players that last beat the All Blacks in 2006 by 1 point in Rustenburg, a team that struggled against Tonga and Fiji in the WC, a team that collectively under the previous ‘successful’ regime had but a mid-60% win ratio and even worse against the top teams?
A world cup win in my mind has seriously disillusioned some fans and media people.
This team was mediocre for 4 years under White, and the only real thing they held onto was a winning streak at home but had a losing record on the road (against mediocre teams like Ireland, France and a piss-poor England) only better than Australia!
Peter either had to play White-type rugby when he took over, or bring his own vision to the party. What he did was attempting to build his brand, with White’s players.
The coach is naive, said it before and will say it again.
Here is a kak funny thing though.
Our so called ‘best players’ with this massive ‘aura’ might be the best in our own eyes, but I find it funny how we contribute 3 or 4 players only to ‘World Teams’ when selected or the Super 14 dream team for the last 5 or 6 years.
If they are so great, why do we not see them in the company of the best when independent or international pundits pick the ‘best team’?
Answer this very simple question; how can some guys perform and play the rugby of their life (under De Villiers) and others not?
Do we then question the individual, or the coach or ‘structures’?
Best players – point is subjective at best.
17 Nov 2008, 10:56 am
As long as as Piet hellium, pienk das, snot snor, stem innie bos, is the head coach the boks will never play to their potensial. He is not the weakest link, he is the missing link.
17 Nov 2008, 10:56 am
#29 asha1: #25 Against Luke the Puke:
So you okes must be mates hey ? One of you did’nt listen very well in class
17 Nov 2008, 10:56 am
#29 asha1:
haha well thats what you get if you put somebody on a pedastal if he belongs to be under it
17 Nov 2008, 10:58 am
As much as this hurts me saying this, especially leaving for London on wed to watch the bokke on sat, a thumping may be more beneficial than another of these “****” (Keo, “From the penthouse to the shithouse”, November 2008) wins. Serious change needs to be made. Be it with player selection, training drills or simply learning the rules. The lions will hammer us next year and the sad part is we have the best team in the world and should be dominating world rugby
17 Nov 2008, 10:59 am
#35 Against Luke the Puke:
maybe thats why you struggled bru!
17 Nov 2008, 11:00 am
#30 asha1:
Smit sh*t , bok scrum fcked good
17 Nov 2008, 11:01 am
wp keo! Habana WORST wing on the field in Currie Cup Final.
17 Nov 2008, 11:02 am
#38 greatest13gerber:
you were drunk. werent you!
smit spent 76 minutes of the game (or more) at hooker
17 Nov 2008, 11:03 am
#38 greatest13gerber: The same Smit and co that demolished the Bulls scrum?
17 Nov 2008, 11:03 am
#34 Zulushark:
nope, he’s no mate of mine
and
no, i
never played under 21 under pdv
but
see how easy it is for someone to come on here and make extraordinary claims?
17 Nov 2008, 11:04 am
#34 Zulushark: Very funny.
17 Nov 2008, 11:04 am
Smit not problem, its Mujati.
17 Nov 2008, 11:04 am
#37 asha1:
Its one thing to talk rugby, and another thing to actually be able to coach it and play it. I could talk the best rugby ever, like 95 % of the people on this site and so could PDV, but if you cannot execute your game plan or coach it correctly its worth squat. You could see the world and get the garbage can
17 Nov 2008, 11:04 am
#9 Tacitus: Tac,
I wasn’t disputing the article at all. Was just loving the thread title!
17 Nov 2008, 11:05 am
I cry @ night missing CJ and BJ.
17 Nov 2008, 11:05 am
i say if we go home with 3 out of 3 wins the tour was a success. you don’t just fly to europe and beat all comers.
17 Nov 2008, 11:05 am
The job of an international rugby coach is to BUILD a winning team.
The important word is BUILD.
When you build a rugby team correctly, you start at the foundation.
That is the tight forwards.
First you select your best scrummaging tight head to anchor your scrum.
Then the rest of the tight forwards.
If you do not build the foundation correctly it is only a matter of time before the cracks start to appear.
Building a rugby team is common sense.
You build the base first.
It is pointless looking at all the faults in the team, if you have not built the best base available to you.
We have not done this.
There can only be 3 reasons that we have not done this:
1 The coach is so far out of his depth that he does not understand this.
2 The coach is selecting players based on reasons other than that they are the best.
3 A combination of the 2 reasons above.
17 Nov 2008, 11:05 am
#32 PissAnt: I’m reading between the lines here….. So you are actually saying he should drop the guys who don’t buy into his vision – I’m thinking some fairly senior and influential players here – and start afresh with those that do….? That would be crazy. Surely as a coach your job is to pick the best players available in their positions and formulate your gameplan based on their strengths not the other way round…. Why pick a guy (like Earl Rose for example) who isn’t the best available in his position? Peter Grant should have been there, in fact should have been first choice 10 on tour since they discarded Butch.
17 Nov 2008, 11:05 am
#44 SexyTime:
Mujaati boy is overrated..
BJ Botha is laughing
17 Nov 2008, 11:06 am
It must be frustrating to play the Springboks…because the weakest team always wins…
…and the biggest problem is our idiot brain-dead coach will not get fired if he keeps on winning like this.
17 Nov 2008, 11:06 am
Hellooooooooooo
There has definately been a massive regression in Bokke play in the last year….
It all starts right up front in the forwards, particularly the front row…. where Tight head prop is a massive head ache for the Bokke !
Then it oozes to the loosies where the right balance of Fetcher / grafter / solid no 8 is wayyyyyyyyy off the mark.
Who is the Bokke forwards coach ?? None other than Gary Glitter (Gold)…. could he EVER manage to get WP to have a dominant pack of forwards…. the answer is a simple NO !!
Without rock solid foundations the backs will never flourish….. couple that to the fact that there is a shortage of TRUE fly halves in SA at the moment and one hellova out of form Habana….. and Bob’s your auntie !
17 Nov 2008, 11:07 am
#42 asha1:
And if you read my comment you would notice that I said that he coached the falcons, which was their CC side at that stage.
17 Nov 2008, 11:07 am
Habana is not in form, that much is clear.
But we can’t heap too much of the blame on his shoulders.
There’s obviously problems and fingers have to be pointed at the coaching.
But, also, I think the ELVs or – at least the ref’s interpretations of them – are playing a big part in the confusing and confused Bok play.
How many times have refs made seriously strange calls in tests this year?
It must really get to the players.
To paraphrase the Scottish captain, players simply don’t know what the ref wants from them.
It all adds up to puzzled performances and kuk rugby.
Something needs to be done.
PDV and his coaching aside, the IRB needs to have a sit-down and thrash out these ELVs properly in order to get some CONSISTENCY.
17 Nov 2008, 11:07 am
#49 tight head:
now where have i seen this comment before?
morning th, nice day, isnt it?
17 Nov 2008, 11:08 am
#32 PissAnt:
I would argue that you have to look at the picture over the longer term (meaning over the past 100 years.)
And considering that we had the best test record of ALL teams prior to isolation, I would say that the only times that we actually performed according to our true potential was under Christie and Mallet, and in 2004/5 under White.
So sure, you can hold De Villiers up as doing “OK” when compared to Strauli, Viljoen, Du Plessis etc., but our record under those guys was WAY below par for the Bok team over its entire history.
I believe that the wealth of natural talent we have at our disposal is second only to that of New Zealand, and that if you immediately removed all political interference in SA rugby, and based everything on merit, including the coaching team, the SA rugby management team and the funds wasted on transformation, then the Boks would consistently be competing with New Zealand for the title of the best team in the world.
Under De Villiers, that opporunity was lost, and we are back to the Strauli era. Only Strauli started with a **** team, while Snor started with the world champs.
Incidentally, how many other countries in the world have produced two of the last 4 world players of the year?
To summarize: We are NOT a mediocre rugby nation. Historically, we were the best of them all, and today, we can still consistently be in the top two. We have more talent than any country barring New Zealand. And we should NOT be satisfied with a sub-standard coaching team like we have at the moment.
17 Nov 2008, 11:08 am
#15 Tacitus: Tac, unfortunately **** happens. The coach calls the tune, so Snor must get rid of those that don’t want to play his game plan, simple as that. Unfortunately it seems that he does not have the balls to do so.
And get off your pedestal about the Boks “aura”. Everybody and sundry wanted to fire JW before the WC, now he is the hero. The Boks were lucky to win the WC in my opinion and although I enjoyed there win, and had the hangover to prove it, I don’t think they are the best team in the world.
17 Nov 2008, 11:08 am
#27 Zulushark: Maybe PdV ought to drop those who don’t buy into his vision then. Their replacements may not be as good as them individually (or maybe they are), but they may well form a collectively better team than the steaming pile of sh*t they currently resemble.
17 Nov 2008, 11:09 am
#49 tight head: So true, back when I still played tight one thing was for sure, if I struggle the team struggle.
17 Nov 2008, 11:10 am
It’s a fact. There is something not right about the way the boks play. No constancy. No parity. No STRUCTURE.
PDiv and **** is like fuel on fire……they are making things worse.
I couldn’t put my finger on it, but when i watched the replay yesterday it struck me. Those poor chaps didn’t know what hit them. Every forward ran at full speed with the ball in hand at least once…..in the backline. Matfield and Spies were considered centers.
No guys, i think there is something very wrong here. Why would Habana struggle with form the way he is. Or any of the other players who did so well earlier this year in the S14.
It’s about man management and getting the best out of your players. But in the same breath i will tell you that’s it’s about the players passion and wanting to win attitude that makes the difference.
We’re back to 2006 again. Something’s gone wrong and action needs to be taken.
17 Nov 2008, 11:10 am
#49 tight head: As always decent comment tighthead. May I add to your comment that even if you have chosen the best players – lets say BJ et and al was there.
They need to have a clear understanding of what exactly their jobs are. Schalk has become the invisible man and a few players have no clue what they are mean to do. Good guideline for me has always been if you weigh more than 100kgs you should be clearing out the rucks, knocking the short ball up, protecting around the rucks and mauls and not playing centre or wing.
17 Nov 2008, 11:12 am
#38 greatest13gerber:
Is jy alweer dronk.
17 Nov 2008, 11:13 am
What is it going to take before SARU appoints a deserved coach? I reckon, if that situation isn’t ammended quickly our best players will go the way of Habana, Spies, Schalk et al and never regain their full form to the boks serious detriment.
17 Nov 2008, 11:13 am
#49 tight head: it#62 pedspin: PPS oh and before I I forget it also stying on your #@***# feet!!!
17 Nov 2008, 11:14 am
#57 Tacitus: Quoting: “To summarize: We are NOT a mediocre rugby nation. Historically, we were the best of them all, and today, we can still consistently be in the top two. We have more talent than any country barring New Zealand. And we should NOT be satisfied with a sub-standard coaching team like we have at the moment.”
Agreed, but we must also get rid of the dead wood that Pissant refered to. It is certainly not Piet Snor that caused Spies to play like **** and Scalla to be ineffective and Habana to drop balls, etc. And unfortunately Piet Snor is in charge.
17 Nov 2008, 11:14 am
#61 Windhond_Sharks:
it only struck you now?
jeez, then you’re really slow
matfield has been a centre/ wing for years!
17 Nov 2008, 11:15 am
#56 asha1:
Morning Ash.
It is as simple as that mate.
You shoot yourself in the foot if you don’t build the basics correctly in the first place.
17 Nov 2008, 11:15 am
#50 jonnymain:
No need to go between lines mate.
It is quite simple actually.
As a coach you coach towards your own strengths too, just as players play to theirs.
Peter is using, and have been using the wrong tools and resources to build his team, to coach towards his strenghts.
For any team to be successful, superstars or not, you need buy in from all sides, and then the right tools to implement your structures and vision.
The fault is not how he wants to play, but how he went about implementing it.
If there are divisions in the team as just about every article suggests (senior players going back to ‘White’ rugby) then Peter has failed in the most fundamental aspect of coaching.
I have no problem with how he wants to play, I reckon he is naive in how he went about trying to achieve it.
When you have divisions in any team environment, you get rid of them, as with the whole Luke Watson saga.
You might limit your potential in achieving success, but there is some hope – with divisive measures in the setup you have no chance in hell.
Peter is not the worst coach we ever had, but he seems to be the most naive.
As coach you are in charge of your player’s and teams destiny. You need to make the tough calls, and the players need to follow.
Once the tail starts wagging the dog you are in big ****. And this seems to be the case now.
The ‘best’ players who should be playing for the Boks will be different in my eyes as it would be in yours and every single person on this blog. The trick is to pick the best players to suit your type of playing style.
The only difference between my team and your team we pick for the Boks and that of Peter and every Bok coach before him, is that his actually has to go out on weekends and do the job…
17 Nov 2008, 11:15 am
#64 saynotohelium:
sqeeze me?
habana’s form is who’s fault?
17 Nov 2008, 11:16 am
#46 stodders:
yip, keo sure has a turn of phrase.
Still hellbent on trying to bring the arrogant bokke to heel and that not good as they think?.
no longer a fan of white, but put him in charge and scotland would have received 20. SA were the best team in the world in Sep 2007, it was not luck or fluke, they would have beaten everyone put in front of them and did.
17 Nov 2008, 11:16 am
#59 stodders:
I don’t think he needs to drop them quite yet. As much as everyone bemoans his approach to the game plan, the idea of playing successfull running rugby is still a good one. It’s the current execution that stinks. But we cannot playing this running rugby without the ball and we cannot get the ball without a dominant pack. The guys are not playing for the team they are playing as a bunch of individuals, this is obvious. How can we not dominate the forwadr exchanges with the likes of bakkies, schalk etc.
That said, snor has made some fundemental **** ups – tight head is a prime example.
17 Nov 2008, 11:17 am
#68 tight head: I see we are of the same opinion, once again…..
Great minds think alike…
17 Nov 2008, 11:17 am
#69 PissAnt:
again, well said
17 Nov 2008, 11:17 am
#61 Windhond_Sharks: Agree there. For me its the coaching staff. All 3 are out of their depth. Its just not good enough. The way they are playing I cant see any gameplan at all. We could get really thrashed next year when the Lions come here. Maybe its time that PdV speaks up that he needs a little help here just like Jake asked Eddie to come in. I think PdV needs someone too.
17 Nov 2008, 11:17 am
#57 Tacitus: Your post raises an interesting question. Are Bok supporters living in the past and failing to recognise the present?
IMO, Professionalism closed the gap between SA, NZ and the rest. Only thing is NZ kept on moving ahead and SA stopped.
You were not a mediocre rugby nation historically, you were a great one. But you are not a great rugby nation now. Results bear this out.
Your players are flawed because they lack the skills of SA players from 20 years ago (poor development and coaching).
Your coaches can only work with the raw materials they have. Jake White did well to base his gameplan on the strengths of the players at his disposal. That meant putting together a gameplan of structure that required them not to have to think. He had a team of robots.
PdV is asking them to think. He is challenging them to play to structure but with their heads up, and so far the individual players are showing they can’t be trusted to think.
To me, it seems like the players fear change. A bit like SA sometimes.
17 Nov 2008, 11:18 am
#62 pedspin:
Hi Ped.
You have to get the pack right first before you do anything.
1 Select the correct front row.
2 Select the correct back row.
It is obvious that your number 6 needs to be a fetcher as in Brossouw.
You then need to play Schalk at 7 with the instruction to run it up over the advantage line and keep up a good tackle count in defence.
Then you play Juan at number 8.
17 Nov 2008, 11:18 am
#63 Dawn:
greetings old friendd
all doomsayers on loose see
17 Nov 2008, 11:19 am
#76 stodders:
agree
17 Nov 2008, 11:20 am
#66 Boerboel: I hear what you and PiepieMier says…. to my mind you don’t need to drop players all at once… but make a good example or 2 of “Superstars” who are’nt on form…. drop their sorry arses….. it’ll wake up the rest to start performing again !
Start with Habana…… drop his sorry out of form arse…. it’ll do the Bokke and him some good !
17 Nov 2008, 11:22 am
#77 tight head: Amen !
17 Nov 2008, 11:22 am
#76 stodders:
I would argue that Bok rugby is performing FANTASTICALLY in the modern era, given the socio-political environment it is based in. For comparison, you only have to look at the performance levels of the South African national soccer team, athletics team, or every other team you can think of.
In the past, our rugby was based in a largely first world society. Today, it is the product of a fast deteriorating Third World environment. To still win world cups in these cicrumstances is remarkable.
17 Nov 2008, 11:22 am
#75 Puma: I shudder to think of the Lions.
Why but why can we not put these mediocre teams away with ease? Damnit man, this is becoming embarrassing.
17 Nov 2008, 11:23 am
#57 Tacitus:
Tac, changing this to a political type of thing will change the dynamics of the debate completely.
No-one wants political interference other than politicians themselves.
We have won things ‘despite’ help from SARU or government in the recent past, and not because of their efforts, and yes we do have massive talent in SA and yes we can be the best in the world.
Isolating the reason we are not to one coach or coaching team is as naive as the coach himself is however.
I am talking from a rugby perspective alone.
As coach, if players are unable, or unwilling to play the way you want to coach, you remove them from team dynamics.
De Villiers will be judged on results, and if he has any hope in hell in being judged as a favourable coach or one to be remembered, it will serve him well to take responsibility.
He wants to ride the White wave (keeping the core players) but play a different style to what these players are used to, or can play.
I said, De Villiers need to make tough calls or just call it a day – because things are not going to get better if he carries on like this.
17 Nov 2008, 11:23 am
#80 grootblousmile:
on habana … agree
17 Nov 2008, 11:25 am
Get real Keo. The Scots were playing for thrir lives, lose & they go to 9th & no seeding for RWC 2011, win & they get a decent draw. Yes the Boks coulds/shoulda/woulda played better. And but for a crappy penalty when on attack 2 metres out for “going over the top, the match would have been way oout of the jock’s reach ( & Schalk is lucky not to have been carded for ref abuse). Bottom line they played like champs & closed the game out. As for Habana, weren’t you singing the same tune about JP a few months ago when he was picked for the boks? And now?! Bryan is a champ, he is the world’s best (& a KES boy), he’ll cut them to shreds at Twickers.
17 Nov 2008, 11:25 am
#76 stodders:
oh what ****.
u sound as bad as the backward sky commentators that year after year bang on abou the Boks syle going backward and year after year they getbeaten … as kak as we played so far as i know neither wales and scotland have beaten us in the last 5 years..
the only teams to beat the boks in the last 2 years in a test match are NZ and Oz.
Thats it.
17 Nov 2008, 11:26 am
#76 stodders: Hi stodders. Look last year Jake White’s Boks thrashed Scotland. This year we can hardly mangage a win. How come? Please its the coaches here. Just look what happened at the Sharks after Muir left. Their whole game lifted and thats because they played with more structure and had a good coach. These Boks are brilliant players each and everyone in their postion but if there is no coaching nothing will work. I believe if Jake stayed you would have seen this team winning well. Also if Meyer or Mallett was coaching them. They are just too talented these guys its the coaching. I must say though that was the worst performance I have seen us play in a long time and we still won. What would it be if we finally clicked? If we win playing so damn rubbish it does not say much for your team then. I thought the Scots played well but still got beat. Also that ref was dreadful. He almost blew us out the ground in the first half and the 2nd he just blew Scotland all the time. Honest refs like that should never be allowed to ref again. I just hope for the Lions tour we have SH refs. Just don’t count a Bok side out when they are down. We are fighters here. Look what happened to Oz when we were down. It could happen to England this Sat. Hoping. But it could
Has your baby been born yet? If so congratulations.
17 Nov 2008, 11:26 am
#81 grootblousmile:
It’s not rocket science.
It’s just good rugby common sense.
However you cannot beat the best teams in the world if you don’t start by picking your best players in position.
It starts with selecting your 4th best tight head instead of your best one.
The rest of the kak just escalates from there.
17 Nov 2008, 11:27 am
#78 greatest13gerber:
My vriend jy moet nou so bietjie nugter raak jong.
17 Nov 2008, 11:27 am
#82 Tacitus: It’s a good point you make, but on the other hand Bafana Bafana have never ever been as good as Brasil have they!?
17 Nov 2008, 11:27 am
#71 cab:
The thing is, the longer these players underperform/play to form, the longer it looks like last year was the exception and not the rule.
SA were above average during White’s tenure. They became difficult to beat once again during that time, but they were never really dominant at any stage. Why some people on here thought it would be different post world cup is beyond me. If anything, the Boks have gone back to their true form that they displayed pre world cup.
SA won the world cup by beating Samoa, USA, Tonga, England, Fiji, Argentina and England. I am not taking away their achievement in winning the world cup or calling it into question. SA deserved to win.
Ask yourself this though, if SA were to play against those teams above now, how many would SA lose? I’ll wager none. SA are better than all of them. The world cup is a knockout tournament where shocks can happen. It doesn’t prove anything about how good your team really is.
SA fans thought an era of domination would materialise after the world cup win. I don’t think they were good enough and still don’t.
17 Nov 2008, 11:27 am
Hey, if KEO’s allowed to swear on this site, why can’t we?
17 Nov 2008, 11:28 am
anyone knows who’ll be in charge of the boks/england game?
17 Nov 2008, 11:28 am
What if what if what if …………
Patterson hadn’t gone off injured and scored all his penalties.
We would’ve lost.
17 Nov 2008, 11:29 am
Man, I enjoy TIGHT HEAD’s clarity in thinking…. straight down the line on the point….
It’s lekker to talk rugby to those who fully understand the game !
17 Nov 2008, 11:29 am
#87 cab: cab, if your team was that good, they shouldn’t be squeaking wins against lowly Scotland or Wales. We aren’t that good, and so it seems, neither are the Boks.
17 Nov 2008, 11:29 am
#71 cab:
Glad you said Sept 07′.
17 Nov 2008, 11:30 am
#84 PissAnt:
Well, I will state here categorically that if Snor only picks players that fit in with his “gameplan”, he will fail dismally. We produce Kobus Wiese’s, Bakkies Botha’s and Schalk Burger’s in this country.
That’s our strength. De Villiers can try and move away from it, but then he will fail. We don’t play like the Mils Muliana’s and Dan Carter’s of this world. Neither does England for that matter.
In fact, our style is very similar to that of England, only we are slightly better at it, historically speaking.
17 Nov 2008, 11:30 am
#93 puff:
next time you feel like swearing
just say
“in the words of keo …” and then you go for it!
17 Nov 2008, 11:30 am
#12 World Cup: The Players are the problem. They are ****. Just because they have a medal does not give them immunity to losing form. In fact. They were never the best in the world in any of their positions. Get Real. Saffas just got romantic after WC 07, and forgot that these same players under Jake, were beaten in 2007 in the tri nations, and got regular hidings in 2006. If I was Pdv, I’d drop all the glory boy medal winners of WC 07, and start from scratch without the Prima Donnas, like Martin Johnston did. He fired the lot from June, holding on to 4 only, and started with fresh hungry bunch of players.
17 Nov 2008, 11:30 am
#95 Dawn: Don’t deal in what ifs. Scotland lost because they didn’t take their chances. I’m not about to go all Big Hit now and make excuses. We came close but still lost. I don’t take pride in coming close and losing.
17 Nov 2008, 11:30 am
When any of France, Scotland, Wales or Ireland win 2 world cups or the boks win rations then talk about greatness, until then blowhard for all its worth. Jake White’s team was consistently in the top 3 and its continued under PdV.
NZ is a step up, but the Boks can and do beat them regularly.
17 Nov 2008, 11:30 am
#87 cab: What about the rubbish NH ref too? I rewatched that game yesterday and damn that ref had no clue at all. He blew Burger right on their line when he cleaned out the ball. That was all above board nothing wrong with that. We could have gone over there for a try. Instead the ball we win he blows and gives it to the Scots!!!!!!!!!! It was like that the whole of the first half. The 2nd half he was blowing Scotland all over the place. Even they were asking him what he wanted.
I see the Ab’s have it good as they had a SA ref against the Irish and this Sat they have Kaplan. Their game will just flow like it should with a good ref.
17 Nov 2008, 11:31 am
#94 asha1:
Martin Johnson.
17 Nov 2008, 11:31 am
#84 PissAnt: What would be the personel changes you suggest. Will be interesting to hear.
17 Nov 2008, 11:32 am
#84 PissAnt: I hear what you say but what is a coach’s job? To coach teh way he wants or to build a winning side? How sucessful has PdV been so far against half decent sides? Gold is most certainly not the best forwards coach and during his tenure at WP/Stormers that was most certainly evident. Muir is also unimpressive but both him adn Gold have to follow what PdV says. As a company’s CEO do you manage the company to where you want to see it or do you manage it to make profits? I woudl submit that PdV’s game style is a day dream and whenever we have played teh way he would like the boks to play (under previous coaches as well) we lost. Look at england they haev no ambition fo playing SH AB style rugby but yet they have as many WC as the ABs. They haev always said geive me teh results first then the rest will follow. We are saying let’s chaneg first teh results will follow. well so far they haven’t.
17 Nov 2008, 11:32 am
#97 stodders:
Give Scotland Piet Snor as head coach and see how they perform. Give England Piet Snor as head coach, for that matter, and see whether they can beat Scotland.
Give South Africa Ian Mcgeechan, or Warrent Gatland (or whoever is coaching you now), and we’d be FAR more competitive than we are under Snor.
17 Nov 2008, 11:32 am
#93 puff:
Watchit.
HM is allowed to do what he likes.
We may not.
17 Nov 2008, 11:32 am
#99 Tacitus:
you’re telling me you’ve seen no difference on how schalk is performing with ball in hand?
17 Nov 2008, 11:33 am
#95 Dawn:
whaat if BJ Botha was selected?
17 Nov 2008, 11:33 am
#15 Tacitus: Thats what has to happen, only players that believe in PDV’s vision must play, if that means dropping Matfield, Schalk, Juan, Spies, FDP, Habana then so be it, there is Bekker, Braussouw,Kanko, Rickster and Nokwe.
17 Nov 2008, 11:34 am
The whole team is accountable for the loss, some non-white players will always be sacrificial lambs when the team performs badly. This cry-out about chaps being quota players and non-performers is absolute balderdash..why do you expect a non-white player to be twice as good as a white player? Shortcomings on the field are never a result of one’s colour. SA rise from your racial slumber!
17 Nov 2008, 11:34 am
Pieter is pieter,
Interesting that only when Sharkies got rid of Muir , and started to play structured under Plum’s they actually started to win…..
Has Gold ever won anything with the Povince softies T5 ?
17 Nov 2008, 11:34 am
#102 stodders:
That’s as may be. You are being too hard on them.
If I were a Scottish supporter I would not be ashamed of how they played.
17 Nov 2008, 11:35 am
The mark of a great team is the ability to win even if you play @#%. The Bokke are doing that. My problem is that the team’s performance is getting worse, not better, so it’s obvious they are not working on their mistakes during the weak. Most obvious is the missed 1st time tackles. Cover defence great, but that first time tackle and winning the collision is lacking. The other big thing for me is the lack of commitment at the breakdown. Do this right and all the other things will click.
17 Nov 2008, 11:35 am
#88 Puma: I think you have some amazingly talented, yet flawed players. You need development programmes and better coaching to turn these rough diamonds into flawless ones. The coaching and development shouldn’t be done at international level. The national coach should be working with fully developed players.
Until then, you’ll have performances like the one in Joburg vs Oz and the one in Edingburgh vs Scotland in one season.
17 Nov 2008, 11:35 am
#108 Tacitus: We would beat everyone and I mean everyone if we had GH, RD, Gatland or even Plumtree. We have no coach. All 3 should be fired.
17 Nov 2008, 11:35 am
#99 Tacitus: 100% correct. You wouldn’t choose a Ferrari to go off-roading or a Land Rover for a lap of Kyalami!!! PDV is trying to put square pegs into round holes and it won’t work.
17 Nov 2008, 11:36 am
Fair comment on the game, however not fact-based and opinionated. My comment is that the Springboks lack structure. When you look at their performance, they kick the ball without thought (yes, you JP!!) and hope for the best when the ball comes down. Do you ever see the All Blacks kick up and unders like we do (senseless and unnessisary)? Legends like Rokocoko and Mills Muliaina seldom kick the ball, and when they do, they dont kick it halfway to the moon and wait for it to come down to earth when the momentum stopped or clear 3 meters to try and jump in front of the person to whom he spoon-fed the possession.
It’s clear to see that there is no lack in talent in the Springbok-squad; look at the performances of Jean de Villiers and Jaques Fourie against Scotland for instance- that is purely talent based and individual magic, the coaching-staff had no influence on their performances. In fact, for me the coaching staff is a brick in the shoe of SA rugby: I base this conclusion on the fact that Schalk Burger and Pierre Spies got more ball in the backline than Ruan Pienaar. Poor coaching or lack of dissipline from the player’s part? I think that the coaches should try to incorporate more structure into the game, especially at the breakdowns (and not donner over the ruck) and kick half less. The forwards should stay behind the backline when not in the ruck and Habana should wake up and realise that he is on the field.
But its only my opinion.
Mr. Mullet
17 Nov 2008, 11:36 am
…en ek sê Sproetjies, Liefling…
daar’s ‘n reenboog in jou oë
Daarsy, nou’s dit uit, daai fokkin song draai vir een of ander rede heeloggend in my kop….. nou’t ek dit uitgespoeg, nou’s dit klaar !
17 Nov 2008, 11:36 am
Pieter is brilliant, he’s currently the only coach in world rugby that plays without a game plan.
No one can analise his team before matches …brilliant man …brilliant
17 Nov 2008, 11:36 am
#76 stodders: Very well written stodders and some decent points. I for one think that sometimes we don’t breed player who can think for themselves.
However what you are talking about is trying to play a game unsuited to our strengths and to copy or try and play what the kiwis have always naturally played. So too the ozzies for that matter. As you put it we are well behind the curve on playing that style and therefore will always sukc the hind *** when it comes to trying to play a style that in truth doesn’t play to our natural advantages.
SA has always bread big boys – thus our game love it or hate it has to be forward and physically orientated. The kiwis and ozzies traditionally do not breed this kind of player. They have however got around it by training great techniques and amending their games to move away from the contact point.
I for one think ELVs also plays into their hands and is a disaster for world rugby. To say SA does not have quality players is naive. The raw talent IMO is unmatched anywhere in the world.
To play a game that doesn’t suit us is playing into the opposition hands. Yes breed players that can think but like Plumtree do it with structure and on a solid base.
SA is often way too caught up in the past as you correctly say but in the present and in the future everyone and every person should and has to be chosen on merit. PDV would not get a decent coaching job anywhere else in the world on merit alone so even though your thread makes excellent commetns on SA needing to live it the future it has to begin at the top with th coach.
IE Chose all people on merit, not politics etc etc etc Now that would be living in the future!
17 Nov 2008, 11:37 am
#104 Puma: He was consistent. He penalised both sides for going off their feet at the breakdown and sealing the ball off. If the players had been more disciplined there wouldn’t have been as many penalties. Blame the ref all you want, but all you’ll do is mask your deficiencies.
17 Nov 2008, 11:37 am
Back to November 2006 it seems:
1. Keo clammering for the coaches head
2. All the muppits jumping up and down baying for blood as Keo works the fragile masses into a rabid frenzy
Fast forward to 2008, given the opportunity many a self same muppit would offer self same coach f*llatio knelt on bended knees
History repeats itself … again.
Ek lag maar net.
(And now, i’m probably gonna get banned for this cras post)
17 Nov 2008, 11:38 am
#117 stodders: We have at the Sharks a great academy also the Bulls. This coach has very talented players that probably know more than he does actually. They know under what gameplan he wants them to play it will never ever work. I believe the players played their own gameplan at Ellis Park and not PdV. Stodders with this coaches these guys wont do well its a waste of such great players. We should have had Meyer. He was right on top of his game then and would have taken these players forward.
17 Nov 2008, 11:38 am
#113 mtawaz:
You’re the first to mention race on this site buddy…wake up and dicuss the rugby not the colour of the peeps
17 Nov 2008, 11:38 am
#104 Puma:
lol, no we can’t use that one, it was usd against wales. scotland played v well, but some perspectie is also needed, the Boks are still a great rugby nation, even at their worst, they still pulled out 2 wins.
17 Nov 2008, 11:38 am
#99 Tacitus:
Not pick players that ‘fit’ in with his game plan Tac – players that buy in.
Massive difference.
There is no reason a Schalk, Bakkies or whoever cannot or should not buy into this.
Whether they do however, is up to them.
Tell me, would the Boks have bought into White’s vision in 2004 to win the WC?
They did not, Smit admitted it – they thought he was cuckoo for implementing a rush defense no-one used in test rugby because it was too risky.
But they did decide to ‘buy’ into it eventually, they became champs.
17 Nov 2008, 11:38 am
#110 asha1:
I’ve seen a severe drop in form in the following:
Victor Matfield
Schalk Burger
Pierre Spies
Fourie Du Preez (compared to his destruction of England in the World Cup)
Bryan Habana
Juan Smith (he may have been man of the match, but he isn’t near the player he was in the World Cup)
Os and Percy are gone, Jacque Fourie hasn’t had the opportunity to be harmed by Snor’s coaching yet, and Bakkies pretty much just gets his head down and does what he always does.
Now, you can blame the players, or you can blame the common denominator here.
And for Pissant, I give the warning. Drop these stars in favour of Snor’s favourites such as the “drifter” Andries Bekker, and Luke Watson, and you’ll see a slaughter of the Boks such as hasn’t happend since Janus Labuschagne was red carded for his light brush against Jonny Wilkinson at Twickenham.
17 Nov 2008, 11:38 am
During his Tenure as Springbok Coach Jake had a success rate of 66%.
It’s early days for Peter de Fornicator, but he is hanging in there on 66.7%.
17 Nov 2008, 11:39 am
#104 Puma: No, sorry I thought he went off his feet which is penalisable. Only difference is SH refs don’t tend to apply the rules correctly. Now the IRB have asked all referees to do so and it is hurting certain players because they are not smart enough to adapt.
17 Nov 2008, 11:39 am
#114 capebull:
I think that snor and **** togther are a problem and I’m a muir fan.
17 Nov 2008, 11:40 am
In 2009:
* The coaching team will be a year wiser
* The coaching team will address their (and our nation’s) technical shortcomings (breakdowns) with external expertise
* The utterly fatigue players will be fresh
And performances will be much improved.
Support the entire Bok setup 110%
17 Nov 2008, 11:40 am
#125 saffa_guy: Hi saffa_guy. Tell me where you think we went wrong then on Sat?
17 Nov 2008, 11:40 am
#123 pedspin: You guys aren’t stupid. There are South Africans the world over who sit in top jobs, make decisions.
But you must be being coached to follow orders. I see few SA players who think for themselves and take responsibilty when on the pitch. It’s like playing rugby by numbers. Saturday was like watching a bunch of dumb players making the same mistakes time and time again for things they had been penalised for earlier. Why did they look so shocked?
17 Nov 2008, 11:40 am
It is not only PdV, there are two other coaches too, both of which came with big credentials.
Keo is right tho, u dont get paid the big bucks for nothing, with poor performances, must come accountability.
17 Nov 2008, 11:41 am
#118 Puma:
C’mon Puma we hear that everyday on here if we had a different coach we would beat everybody blah blah , under Jake White the WC winning coach you didn’t beat everyone and won 1 out of 4 Tri Nations.
17 Nov 2008, 11:41 am
why
bring a
shithouse
into the
debacle
is your shithouse
your castle?
17 Nov 2008, 11:41 am
#80 grootblousmile: Sure, like Piet should have implemented his gameplan in phases then he might have been at 40% by now.
17 Nov 2008, 11:41 am
#128 cab: Cab, You’ll always be a great rugby nation. I think my earlier post questioned this. Apologies. You just don’t have a great rugby team at the moment.
17 Nov 2008, 11:43 am
Hi All – sorry about the insanely long post, but to my mind we’re staring down the barrel of a gun here. Again apologies fo rthe long – if super-interesting – post.
—-
Professor Tim Noakes has responded to Brendan Venter’s Weekend Argus column from last Saturday, entitled ‘Prof Noakes is wrong — the more rugby you play, the better you play’.
Noakes — who is greatly respected in South Africa, and across the sporting world, for his views and vast research on the mental aspects and science of competitive sport — has responded to all Venter’s claims, one-by-one.
This is Noakes’s full, unedited response, whilst a shortened version will appear in Saturday’s (11 October) Weekend Argus.
——————————————————————————–
To the Editor: Dr Brendan Venter’s column in the Weekend Argus of September 27th, 2008 entitled, ‘Prof Noakes is wrong — the more rugby you play, the better you play’, contains substantial errors of fact and interpretation and is dangerous to the future health of South African rugby.
Claim: “Peter de Villiers has been told by Professor Tim Noakes to rest his players.”
Fact: Coach de Villiers has not spoken to me since May 8th 2008 when he visited me at the Sports Science Institute. If Jean de Villiers and other Western Province Springboks has been advised to rest, that advice has not come from me. Whether or not I would agree with that advice is irrelevant.
Claim: “Given how a supposedly tired Jean (de Villiers) is playing at this moment, I would hate to have to play against him when he is fresh.”
Fact: If Jean de Villiers is indeed playing well at this time, then by definition he is not presently “fatigued” or “burned out” or “overreached”, according to the standard medical definition of those terms. For the key feature of all those conditions is sustained under-performance; at first barely noticeable; later obvious to even the most biased provincial supporter.
But the issue of player fatigue and burnout is not what happens in the season that the player is performing well and so is continually overplayed by well- meaning coaches. It is what happens the following year.
Classic examples of players who continued to play without control in their year of brilliance (and of which Dr Venter must be aware since his rugby career overlapped with theirs) were Marius Joubert who was on the top of his game in 2004 playing (according to our records) at least 38 matches at high level. Joubert played little rugby at top level thereafter and never again with the same level of excellence. And Henry Honiball who was perhaps the key player in the world-record beating Springbok team of 1998 but who played only one and a quarter tests in 1999, the year that his brilliance was most needed. The history of Springbok rugby is littered with similar examples.
Whether or not those senior players of the Springbok 2007 RWC-winning team who are currently being overplayed by well-meaning coaches will suffer the same fate as Joubert and Honiball is a question that only time will answer.
Claim: “My problem with Noakes’s reasoning is that he appears to look at the results and then work backwards” so that “Noakes’s argument that players should be rested as (sic) strike (sic) me as the most unscientific views I have heard from a scientist.”
Dr Venter makes this claim on the basis of a presentation that he claims he heard me give some time after the 2007 Rugby World Cup. From that presentation he concluded that my “argument revolves around a theory that the Springboks lost the World Cup in 1999 because Nick Mallett didn’t take his advice to rest players. Jake White did take his advice, and won the World Cup. For Noakes everything rests on these key facts”.
Fact: The talk to which Dr Venter refers happened on November 8th, 2005 and was entitled Rugby Burnout: What evidence? Since that presentation occurred two years before the 2007 Rugby World Cup, I could not then have known the outcome of the 2007 RWC. During and after that talk, Dr Venter raised essentially the same arguments that he presented in his September 2008 column. He was as adamant then, as he is now, that there is never any need to rest rugby players. Apparently events in the subsequent two years has done nothing to alter his conviction.
What I actually said in November 2005 was that if we wished to win the 2007 RWC we had to learn (i) from the errors made by the 1999 Springbok RWC team in the 1998 season whilst they were establishing a new world record for consecutive number of Test victories, as well as (ii) from the reasons for the success of the Wallabies team in that same competition. I then presented the evidence I considered to be crucial as well as extensive information proving that rugby players “burnout” if their match playing time is not controlled and if they do not have adequate rest (of at least two months each year). I also explained how data we were collecting prospectively from the Springbok rugby team in 2004 and 2005 was being used to prepare the team for the 2007 RWC campaign.
So my argument in November 2005 was not that we had lost the 1999 RWC because Nick Mallett had not taken my advice. In fact, he had never sought it. Rather, my contention was that injudious medical management caused the loss of world-class players at the critical time they were most needed.
Years later, Nick Mallett acknowledged to me that he first appreciated the role of the medical support team in world rugby only after his Parisian team Stade Francais had won the French domestic league in 2003 and 2004. The key, he said, was that on the day of the 2004 final he was able to select his team from 30 uninjured players. This he said was entirely due to the work of the Stade Francais sports medical team.
Perhaps if Mallett had coached Stade Francais before the Springboks, ‘that Larkham drop-goal’ might never have happened. And South Africa might have retained the RWC in 1999.
Claim: “Noakes appears to rely on what we in the medical profession refer to as anecdotal evidence.”
Fact: Dr Venter conveniently ignores two critical facts. Firstly, that any valid scientific experiment requires at least three essential ingredients: First, absolute control of every variable in the subject’s (in this case rugby player’s) life during the period of the experiment; second, an intervention to test the scientist’s hypothesis; and third, an identical control group that does not receive the intervention. It is impossible to fulfil even one of these criteria when working with elite athletes performing the work for which they are paid.
In fact, there is so much evidence in the scientific literature proving that the uncontrolled (over)playing of rugby players (the intervention that Dr Venter wishes us to study) is detrimental to their health, that a proposed scientific study of this question would not pass any university ethical review board. There are some experiments that are not needed. It is known for example that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute is deleterious to one’s health and is usually fatal. Metaphorically, South African rugby has been throwing its players from airplanes without parachutes for the past 16 years. By now the cumulative evidence is incontestable.
Secondly, Dr Venter fails to acknowledge that within these constraints, Jake White’s Springbok medical support team of Drs Yusuf Hassan and Derik Coetzee and Mr Clinton Readhead conducted themselves as if they were undertaking a scientific experiment. They began with a hypothesis conveyed to coach White in April 2004 that the key to winning the 2007 Rugby World Cup was to have the best 22 players in the fittest condition of their lives available for selection on the day that they were most needed — the RWC Final. Through a rigorous evaluation of the medical state of the players on an almost daily basis and of their physical state regularly, the medical team regulated, as best they could within the constraints imposed by South African rugby and with coach White’s full support, the amount of game time that each player accumulated over the four years, how much they trained and when they rested. Dr Coetzee carefully regulated each player’s training on an individual basis to bring each to a peak during RWC 2007.
In the end, the medical team produced a flawless experimental outcome. On the day of the final, coach White could select his team of 22 from 30 uninjured players. Not one of his players, he later told me, had so much as a sniffle. What is more, the 15 who began the final played the full 80 minutes, a first in the history of the RWC.
It would have been more helpful if Dr Venter had described the successful outcome of this practical “scientific” experiment that no other country could match. If his interest was indeed the welfare of Springbok rugby, he should have encouraged South African rugby to learn from that experience. Sadly, in the more usual South African way, he must summarily dismiss this extraordinary achievement because it conflicts with a personal agenda.
At the same time he, a non-scientist, demeans my standing as a professional scientist. Had I been as dismissive of his professional work as a medical doctor, I would have been called before the Medical and Dental Council for unethical behaviour.
In this manner, Dr Venter has acted unethically.
Claim: Dr Venter believes that the more a team plays together the better they become because “fatigue in rugby is not a physical thing, but mental or psychological” so that “fatigue is not a factor”. In fact, he believes that I am the most important cause of fatigue in South African rugby players since my “constant criticism of the amount of rugby played works on the players’ psychology and makes him (sic) start believing he has played too much.”
Fact: As fully described in my book ‘Lore of Running’, the human body cannot sustain high levels of physical stress of the kind produced by training and playing professional sport at high level for prolonged periods without significant consequences. And the key consequence is the development of a progressive physical (not, as Dr Venter believes, mental) fatigue that predisposes to illness and an increased risk of significant injury. The only way to limit this progressive fatigue is (i) to allow professional rugby players at least 8-10 weeks’ complete rest each year and (ii) to regulate the amount of time professional players spend training and playing matches during the playing season.
If in October 2008 Dr Venter really believes that this condition known in the sports medicine literature as over-reaching or over-training, is purely “mental or psychological” then it is time he became educated. Ignorance of this degree is no excuse and certainly not when it has far-reaching consequences for a nation’s rugby players and their chances of success in major international rugby competitions.
If the amount of rugby played by the senior members of any Springbok team is uncontrolled, it is not difficult to predict that sooner or later key players will “over-reach”, become injured and the performance of the team will implode. That is exactly what happened to the 1998 world-record breaking Springboks.
Less than six months after establishing their world record they were reduced to being rather ordinary (compared to their previous standards). Jake White’s Springboks also imploded in 2006 when they lost seven of 12 Test matches. Fortunately, coach White had been warned by me that the team would likely implode in 2006 and he knew what preventive measures to take to reverse that implosion. Only by risking his position as coach was he able to implement those changes that were crucial to Springbok success in the 2007 RWC.
In order to ensure his continued employment, a weaker coach — a yes-man, would simply have succumbed to the powers that run South African rugby. And we would not have won the 2007 RWC.
Conclusion: My major criticism of Dr Venter’s column is that he uses an apparently scientifically-based argument (which at the same time is skillfully dismissive of a particular scientist) cleverly to craft an emotive and populist argument that is easily understood and embraced by all rugby supporters — namely the freedom of the coach to select any player that the coach believes will increase a particular team’s probability of success.
This is a disingenuous distortion and a tribute to Dr Venter’s skills of manipulation and persuasion. I have argued that the basis for his argument is wrong and that it has been rejected by all the major rugby-playing nations, all of which now accept that the overplaying of rugby players is a global problem with serious consequences.
But the real issue of debate, as Dr Venter well knows is: Who controls the fate of South African rugby players? The answer is the CEOs of the 14 provincial Unions. Since the CEOs answer to their provinces they have a conflict of interest and must place the needs of their employer, the provinces, above those of the national team.
Dr Venter’s article will not go unnoticed by those CEOs who will welcome the statement of a medical doctor, former Springbok rugby player and successful rugby coach that the more rugby South African players play, the better they will perform. Here they will know is a man whose philosophy they can embrace. What is more, Dr Venter has carefully put that irritating know-it-all Professor Noakes nicely in his place.
But discounting my opinion does not resolve the perennial challenge faced by South African rugby. It is exactly that which Jake White faced in 2004. We can either prepare our Springboks according to Dr Venter’s populist model, which I believe to be wholly incorrect, and which holds that the more our Springboks play the better they will perform. Or we can follow the Jake White model which proposes that if we wish to be the best rugby-playing nation in the world that wins the RWC on a regular rather than a sporadic basis, we must insure that our rugby player play exactly “enough but not too much” rugby. And they can only do that if their match playing time and their rest periods are properly managed.
George Santayana wrote that those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it. To which Karl Marx added that history repeats itself — the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.
The question for South African rugby is simple. Will we repeat the approach that proved to be successful at the 2007 RWC? Or will we fall for Dr Venter’s sublime seduction and so adopt his approach that history proves it will produce only tragedy and repeated farce?
Professor Tim Noakes
Discovery Health Professor of Exercise and Sports Science
University of Cape Town and Sports Science Institute of South Africa
17 Nov 2008, 11:43 am
There is no point being critical of back line players when they are more often than not on the back foot.
There is no point being critical of backs who do not get enough good ball.
When a half back has to make decisions on the back foot, he is already in defensive mode.
If the coach really understood rugby he would start with the cause and not the symptoms.
17 Nov 2008, 11:44 am
#130 Tacitus:
brian, juan, schalk
had excellent s14 and cc tournaments?
matfield were not playing here .. so cant say anything about his form
spies returned halfway at the end of the s14 (if i remember correctly) .. but imho were not anywhere near his form of a year or two ago?
phew
van nou af drink ek fokkol meer nie
..
f*kken drank!!
17 Nov 2008, 11:44 am
#126 Puma: Meyer could have failed too. Who is to say that he would have done any better. He could have alienated all the non-Bulls speaking players for all you know. It’s all conjecture. We’ll never know.
Btw, he’s not carrying all before him in England with Leicester who are the biggest club side in England.
17 Nov 2008, 11:44 am
#132 jonnymain: I watched All Out Rugby and they replayed that and they all said the ref made a wrong call there. He never went off his feet they showed it again and could see well that it was a perfect clean out. That was a big mistake. Maybe if you can rewatch the game again you will see Burger never went off his feet there. They also showed some mistakes by JdV by not passing if he had we could have had at least two tries there aswell. And for certain after Burger cleaned out that ball on their try line. We are going to seed refs in the S14 next year and hope that will solve the problem with this bad refs. It spoils the game really. That ref blew us almost all the time in the first half then he started to blow Scotland all the time in the 2nd. Even they were asking him what he wanted. Not good enough.
17 Nov 2008, 11:45 am
#130 Tacitus: How can you call Andries Bekker a “drifter”. He is at least a better centre than Matfield.
17 Nov 2008, 11:45 am
#125 saffa_guy:
You will be appluaded for a post containing more than an element of truth and at the same time entertaining.
17 Nov 2008, 11:45 am
Habana does not get oppertunities or quality ball. I blame pdv for Habana’s form. AD does not create space for Habana. My backline… 9 FDP…10…Ruan…11…Habana….12….Jean….13….Jacques……14…..JP……15…Frans Steyn. Just imagine how scared the other teams will be in kicking for teritory. Frans will punt them over for 3 every now and then.
17 Nov 2008, 11:46 am
#142 mako: This is about three months old.
17 Nov 2008, 11:46 am
#136 stodders:
that is viewed thru your parochial perception with a very limited saffa paradigm, and yet each year these dumb players beat their celtic brainier counterparts. this is done every year almot without fail, despite being at the end of our season in shite conditions.. .
17 Nov 2008, 11:48 am
#145 stodders: No I think all these players respect Meyer. Don’t think he would have alienated the non-Bull players. Meyer is one smart guy. He would have been a better choice. They should have had PdV as his assistant for the next 4 year to take over then. It would have been better. Also Muir not very good at this level at all. You just have to watch how well the Sharks started to play after he left.
17 Nov 2008, 11:48 am
#106 Dumb Supporter:
Impossible to say, I am not part of the day-to-day team dynamics.
#107 Objective 101:
His job, management.
And this is where Jake was successful and Peter is failing.
Jake surrounded himself with the right people to take his vision forward. Peter has not.
Jake managed his coaching staff and players, according to reports, players are against Peter.
That is why Peter failed in the most fundamental thing in coaching.
You need the right tools and resources to succeed, in anything in life. This is why I said Peter is naive, he thought he could ride the World Cup wave and implement his own vision while winning with rugby the guys are not used to playing.
The best coaches in the world is usually the best people or managers of people too.
So again, Peter need to make the tough calls, which like all coaches before him including White, will not be popular decisions either.
Thing is, he needed to do it a while back already.
#130 Tacitus:
Again Tac, buy-in, not fit-in.
It is not about favourites, that is again as naive as the coach is. It is about winning.
You pick guys who you believe can win you test matches, and 70% of those choices will be unpopular, you will be hated, like people hated White for the best part of 4 years.
But that is the type of tough choices you have to make as a coach.
The most successful coaches in our history was also some of the most hated while they were in charge with the exception of Kitch – well some WP guys hated him for dropping Strauss so even him.
17 Nov 2008, 11:49 am
Yeah, I know, but I thought it was good reading then. It makes even better reading now that half our players are shite. Ah well, maybe it isn’t fatigue….
17 Nov 2008, 11:49 am
I think that the team is not balanced right accross the park. More than enough has already been said regarding the tight head situation as well as Habana and it is clear that our loose trio just can’t play together. At the back we just don’t have a general at the moment that can control the game and dictate the pace like Carter can. Its only really when Jean gets his hands on the ball that you see something happening. I know everyone believes Ruan will be a good flyhalf, but he isn’t one now and playing him in a team that’s struggling can impact his confidence and can do a lot of damage long term. At the back Jantjes tries hard but he just isn’t consistent enough. Play Steyn at 15 and at least there will be more of an exciting attacking force at the back.
17 Nov 2008, 11:50 am
#129 PissAnt: Spot on, as always. Drop only two and see how the other buy in.
17 Nov 2008, 11:52 am
#151 cab: Also cab our players are tired. We have played non stop since end of Jan. These Boks went straight from the 3N right into the cc. Our domestic rugby here too is no holiday. Its a tough competition. They only had two weeks together to train after the cc final. Also they hate the cold weather. I know you must play in all conditions but they should play better here when the Lions come. The good news is that we play the Lions at Loftus and Ellis Park!!!!!!!!!!!!! how good is that. Two games at altitude and only one at sea level in Durban. We will be ready on our hard fields with the sun on our backs. Just hope this coach has got better by then.
17 Nov 2008, 11:52 am
#136 stodders: I agree sometimes we don’t think but to lay the blame soley at the door of the players is maybe a bit harsh. Check my previous blogs pre-tour. It was eveident that the way the game is reffed (and rightly so IMO also see #132) in the north is very different and far stricter than in the south. Now was this drilled or coached into the players – ie a lot in life is about creating good habits and repeating them, / also good management makes it clear to their subordinates what to expect and how to react. If they don’t they are negligent. Did PDV and Gold (forwards coach) do this? I doubt it looking at their reactions as they too seemed rather unimpressed with the ref and so too we can glean this from their comments.
No suprise that the other two games reffed by Saffas went quite convincingly the way of the southern hemisphere sides.
Who’s fault is it? Players yes since they should have been quicker on the uptake however we live in 2008 where the coach has to empower his players with the best knowledge and expertise to make thode decisions. I am an amateur and have been boring all here with the difference in reffing interpretations for months.
Did the coaches do that?? I guarantee you not. Sack the chairman not the workers mate.
17 Nov 2008, 11:52 am
Keo is 100% right. No plan. No structure. No cohesion and absolutely no continuity from week to week.
I blame the players and the coach…..mostly the coach.
Peter De Villiers: Right me a short decriptive manual on your game plan that makes sense and i’ll eat my hat…..and yours for that matter.
**** is as much to blame for this. John Smit said it before the game. **** will want to run the ball in ICELAND FFS!
Fire the coach!
17 Nov 2008, 11:52 am
we are
gathered here
today
in keo’s shithouse
talking rugby
17 Nov 2008, 11:54 am
#159 Windhond_Sharks: My apologies. Write, not ‘right’
17 Nov 2008, 11:54 am
#130 Tacitus: I think Bekker would’ve been a better option than Habana on the wing last Saturday.
17 Nov 2008, 11:54 am
#158 pedspin: Exactly!
17 Nov 2008, 11:54 am
#151 cab: I’m certainly not saying our players are brainier. I think our coaches have to be more imaginitive because they don’t have the playing talent at their disposal that the Boks have.
The Scots on Saturday had to find ways to blunt the Boks and exploit their weaknesses. The fact that the Boks played some of the most bone headed rugby I have seen from them for a while made their job a little easier and never allowed the Boks to build pressure or momentum. At times, with a bit of patience and discipline, the tries were there for the Boks. But they had neither and so the chances went begging apart from Fourie’s try of course.
I thought the Boks looked like they thought it would be easy on Saturday. They turned up expecting to win. When things didn’t go to plan, they got frustrated and indiscipline set in. I hope they learned a valuable lesson. Never underestimate your opponent, no matter how weak you think them to be.
17 Nov 2008, 11:55 am
Now whats going to happen? Smit at prop and Chilly at hooker, Chilly struggles because no prop support and what a surprise, all the blogger experts will knock Chilly! Pietsnor should put his money where his mouth is and select “his favourites” that buy into whatever plan he has. My advice though, pick a bench with the stalwarts such as Schalk, Habs etc. and should the fan be struck by “That Famous Storm”, go back to the basics. Engage 4X4 en donner die Poms op – as easy as that!
17 Nov 2008, 11:55 am
fdp for january
nokwe for brian
jfourie for adi … in this instance not because i think adi did anything wrong on saturday, but because i think he may have a bigger impact on the game in the latter stages when the game is more open and defences are tiring a bit!
17 Nov 2008, 11:57 am
#158 pedspin: Agree with alot of that. I guess i give your players such a hard time because they underperform and bloggers just blame the coach.
It’s not always the coach who is at fault. He doesn’t drop the ball, go off his feet at the breakdown after being penalised for it earlier, miss tackles etc. The players have to cop some flak over this i’m afraid. They get paid enough to take the hit when they are not playing well.
17 Nov 2008, 12:00 pm
#159 Windhond_Sharks:
Go read Pierre Villepreux’s material on this type of rugby.
17 Nov 2008, 12:00 pm
#164 stodders:
sometimes u do not play well and the oppo do, i do not believe any of those coaches or players underestimated their opponent or considered them to be weak…any proper rugby person knows a test match is preicesly that where pride and passion for one’s country make up for alot, in short, anything can happen.
17 Nov 2008, 12:01 pm
#153 PissAnt: I agree there what you say that Jake surrounded himself with the right people. He had it down to the last detail. By even getting that eye coach. Jake too was a great motivator. Made all the players believe in themsleves. He got what most coaches want from a team. Respect. They believed in him. That brings success. I just have a feeling the players just don’t trust PdV gameplan at all. He also has not got many working with him right now. I think Jake had a a huge staff working for him. Not sure so sure how many PdV has.
17 Nov 2008, 12:01 pm
PDV will face an interesting test of politics this week.
Smit is a tight head on this tour.
Chilliboy is back up hooker.
Beast is the loose head.
However both Mujati and Smit can play both loose head and tight head.
So, if he brings in Jannie and does not play Chilliboy what will certain people say?
And if that is the case why was Jannie not selected in the first place with Chilliboy on the reserve list back home?
Why would you fly in a reserve from SA when you have Chilliboy there to play hooker and 2 tight heads in Smit and Mujati on tour?
17 Nov 2008, 12:02 pm
What about heyneke Meyer of John Plumtree for PDV
17 Nov 2008, 12:04 pm
#170 Puma:
Mentally Jake had it easier, he took a team over that were down in the dumps – not too difficult to motivate them.
Peter took guys over that thought they are the best in the world and no-one can tell them anything about the game.
Comes back to the unpopular decisions I am talking about, the tough calls.
Peter should have done it from the start but obviously did not want to upset the apple cart too much.
He had better do it soon however.
But I am afraid it might be too late.
17 Nov 2008, 12:04 pm
#164 stodders:
You must take a lot of positives from that defeat?
17 Nov 2008, 12:04 pm
#169 cab: I think some of them did, especially after what a supposedly second string AB side did to them the week before. I don’t think John Smit would have encouraged that thinking.
I think the look on Juan Smith’s face at the end was one of relief and surprise. I don’t think some of them expected the battle they got on Saturday. Just my opinion.
17 Nov 2008, 12:05 pm
#167 stodders:
agree
i was amazed to see how many times our players actually fell off tackles on saturday!
17 Nov 2008, 12:05 pm
hello all
first up, congrats to the scots on a wonderful performance on sat and thanks to all the people of edinburgh for a wonderfull weekends fun.
beautiful city.
murrayfield was dissapointingly only half full and i think the many scots who stayed away missed a truly great performnce from their side.
the boks were pretty solid for the first 30 mins and only the fantastic scottish defence kept them out. a bit of selfishness was evident again in their play, with both jantjies and jean guilty of holding on to passes that could well have resulted in tries.
it was a test match and as much as i am a little perturbed by our lacklustre display (it all started up front TH, i agree) i would rather congratulate scotland than whine all day on keo.
man up people, i think i will stay for twickers, three from three would be good!
17 Nov 2008, 12:08 pm
#175 stodders:
if anything it was the ABs who underestimated the scots by picking a 2nd string, the boks picked their best – there’s some arrogance to have a go at.
17 Nov 2008, 12:08 pm
#171 tight head: Good point, however, White did it all the time with Splinters, fly in a substitute and leave Splinters on the bench.
17 Nov 2008, 12:08 pm
#171 tight head:
I think snor will choose
3 smit
2 chill
1 beast
this weekend
17 Nov 2008, 12:09 pm
#166 asha1: I agree there but I would put Steyn in for JdV. If FdP is injured then Pienaar as to go to 9 and maybe Steyn to 10. Or we can call up some players as I think Bismarck is injured and Steenkamp. Call up BJ and Butch. Thats what I would do for Sat. Wont happen though.
17 Nov 2008, 12:12 pm
#177 rangerman: Hello rangerman. Sound like you having a great time even in the cold. Yes I think Jean keeps the ball for too long and never passes sometimes. Otherwise we could have had two tries if he had passed. I think Jf and Steyn for this Sat Adi to the bench. Not that Adi is playing bad just would like to see the wc pair playing on Sat. Think we need big strong guys there for Sat.
17 Nov 2008, 12:13 pm
#167 stodders: Couldn’t agree more the players should cop a fair amount of stick they only are the ones out on the field who can change anything but again who selects those players. No disrespect but some of our players are known as being the sharpest knives in the draw….. not sure why bakkies comes to mind
Schalk is way off his best, Juan looks tired (best games for a while been his last two) Spies is harking on former glories. Januarie is no 4 in the country and Habanan no where the force he once was. In the absence of a quality tighthead on the shores I applaud PDV for his change of Smittie (one of our very few thinkers) however its a bit unfair to drop Brian Mujati in the deep end – he has looked out of his depth in all his starts thus far – though will hopefully come good in the future.
What I’d love to see is Henry or say Deans get hols of the SA talent un-encumbered with all the politics and requirements placed on any SA coach. I think we all know what the result would be.
17 Nov 2008, 12:13 pm
#178 cab: Interesting point. I think the ABs did display some arrogance in their selection, but they were mentally prepared to play the Scots, whereas I don’t think SA’s best were mentally prepared to play us.
17 Nov 2008, 12:13 pm
#177 rangerman:
So says Angus MacRangerman.
Glad you to hear you are enjoying your Tour.
17 Nov 2008, 12:14 pm
#179 Boerboel:
You are right.
However there is a political dimension to this, and it will be interesting to see who he selects.
The best front row would be Beast, Smit and Jannie.
As Zulu says, I can’t see that hapenning.
17 Nov 2008, 12:14 pm
#174 Sheriff: The big negative outweighs all the small positives. We should have won. Simple as that. We won’t get another chance like that for some time.
17 Nov 2008, 12:14 pm
#168 PissAnt: nope, i want peter to tell me what it’s about seeing as he is the guy that needs to explain it to our players mate.
I can also tell you to read the work of Einstein….doesn’t mean you’ll understand it.
17 Nov 2008, 12:15 pm
#177 rangerman: Hey Ranger.
Glad you enjoyed yourself. I hope you enjoyed thempost match drinking and banter too. I had a word with Frank to get the Scots to put on a show because you were in town. Glad they didn’t disappoint you
17 Nov 2008, 12:16 pm
#186 tight head: Neither can I, difference between Snor and White is that Snor is more political correct. So it is going to Beast, Chilli, Smit
17 Nov 2008, 12:17 pm
#178 cab:
NZ had 5 Tests Matches, in 5 weeks lined up (with one mid-week game for good measure). Spreading the load is/was essential.
17 Nov 2008, 12:17 pm
#184 stodders:
maybe, the scots payed v well, some v good players esp considering size of country..
17 Nov 2008, 12:18 pm
#183 pedspin: If GH or RD could coach our Boks we all know they would be probably the best ever. Thats what we lack here is a world class coach. Sad to see these wonderful talented players wasted with a coach that is out of his depth right now. Probably this Sat now that we think they will get beat they will pull off a great win. Hoping.
17 Nov 2008, 12:18 pm
Our players are buggered too… non-stop since the world cup in the toughest competitions on the planet.
17 Nov 2008, 12:19 pm
#190 Boerboel:
you guys wanna bet?
…
you obviously have never met “the man”!
17 Nov 2008, 12:19 pm
#188 Windhond_Sharks:
Oh I understand it, I think most others dont though.
#189 stodders:
Well done on an impressive performance for your team.
17 Nov 2008, 12:20 pm
#186 tight head:
There are some things I just don’t understand about the current bok coaching staff. For 100 years our strenght has been our size, physicality and our brute strength. We have also have some pretty gifted backline players to go along with the forwards that get churned out. Why does he want to change something so radicaly ? I mean, we all would like to see our boks running into space from time to time, but the fact that the AB, Poms, Aus and French don’t really fancy us when our forwards are playing well tells the story. Do the AB **** themselves for the French or Aus forwards like they do ours ? No they don’t. Take on the collision points then the space will open up in the field.
17 Nov 2008, 12:21 pm
#191 cane: Hi cane. Ab’s also lucky to have a Saffa ref last week and another this week. They know how we ref down here and the game will flow. We are stuck with the NH refs that have no clue at all. Ab’s playing really well. Looking forward to their game this weekend.
17 Nov 2008, 12:22 pm
#196 PissAnt: i understand.
17 Nov 2008, 12:22 pm
#182 Puma: #185 cane: yup, all good here.
#189 stodders: thanks stodders. in fact, i disaemed the scots quite easily with effusive praise for their pack’s performance and frank dissapointment with the boks.
worked a treat.
17 Nov 2008, 12:22 pm
I think Stodders got it right.
The problem with the Boks’ game was that they were not mentally prepared for this one.
As a consequence things got a bit out of control especially in the 1st half with the ref living up to expectations. The NH refs are just k*k, every single one of them. SA ref would have handled that better. Bissie’s departure also did not help the cause.
So players became frustrated. Good thing John was there. Heard the ref saying to him at one point ” Leave it now thanks”
Another problem of course is that Bok players lack vision. A player running directly at the opposition has 180 degr avail but several, especially senior Bok players use about a third of that. The problem is that players do not see the support player. They clearly do not understand that thet game is about continuity.
We cannot shrivel up every time when under pressure, you have to back yourself to go and earn the victory.
Also it 100% k*k that they had an aura a year ago. They nearly lost to Tonga and Fiji with a white coach there in Jake White, for crying out loud. That is just pure SA white male k*k arrogance and racism.
I think the real test will come this Saturday. Let’s see…
17 Nov 2008, 12:23 pm
#195 asha1: Have you?
17 Nov 2008, 12:24 pm
#192 cab: True, but if the Boks were as good as some on here suggested they were man for man, we should by rights have been hammered.
I’m not having a go at you. I guess i’m still riled by the predictions that were being bandied around on here last week…30 point winning margins were a trifle arrogant going on the Boks’ last performance against Wales and Scotland’s decent showing against NZ.
It’s probably a case of us not being as bad as some have suggested, and the Boks not being as good.
17 Nov 2008, 12:24 pm
#193 Puma: I would never underate the English. They were in it for most of the game with the aussies and both were playing a decent game to watch unlike the stop start affair up in Edinburgh where I think the Scots were highly motivated and the boks allowed them to believe they could win. (All other comments I have said above aside). Johnson is building a good side and on form I would wager money on the English taking it.
I hope I am wrong – and we get one of those miracle victories by a huge margin that us bok supporters no longer get to see. No wonder SA has one of the highest heart attach rates.
17 Nov 2008, 12:25 pm
# Sheriff: Agree Sheriff. The Boks look at Scotland in the same way they look at Tonga, Italy, Fiji etc. Cannon fodder.
17 Nov 2008, 12:26 pm
I taped the game on Sky-plus and then watched most of it in fast forward – it was more exciting that way and the game ended in 20 minutes instead of 80. My God what a pile of shite (in the words of Keo). I agree with some of the posts – if Snor wants to play an expansive game then its time to clean house and start fresh. Those senior players were moulded under White to play in a specific fashion and that will never change – especially with a coach as inexperienced as snor at the helm. How on earth can you have the coach teaching certain patterns on the training paddock only for a complete reversal of strategy on match day? No the whole set up is rogered. Snor fire Smit, Matfield, Habana and co – and then you can truly get to live or die by the sword.
17 Nov 2008, 12:27 pm
#192 cab: Thanks btw cab. I’ve always found you to be fair on the most part with your analysis and opinions.
17 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm
#198 Puma:
Actually Puma, I thought Mark Lawence was a little harsh on the Bog Leapers.
But I must say, he is very clear on what he expects, and communicates this very well to all.
He must surely be among the top 3 in the World at present.
17 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm
#200 rangerman: Its a great city Edinburgh. Also the Scottish people are wonderful. Pleased you had a great time. Agree that JdV held on to two passes when we could have gone over their line for two tries if he had passed and once with Jantjes we would have scored aswell if he had passed. The score would have looked very different then. But a win is a win espeically when we play bad. So will just take it.
Now you need to get to the game in England. Hope we play better there. Just have a lot of injuries now. Enjoy your holiday rangerman. The sun is waiting for you when you get back. Humid weather is back.
17 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm
#196 PissAnt: Cheers PA.
But it doesn’t take away from the fact that we passed up the best opportunity we will have for some time to post a win against the Boks. When I think about it, it still makes me sick to my stomach that we didn’t put you away.
17 Nov 2008, 12:29 pm
#193 Puma:
dunno if thats altogether true, i think our coaches are on par with our players, up their with the best. it makes no sense that there’d be a gap in talent here.
NZ are vest, cos they have the best payers, structures and coaches.
17 Nov 2008, 12:30 pm
#59 stodders: What would Scotland then be if this “steaming pile of sht” can still beat them?
17 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm
#208 cane: I think he is a great ref. Ab’s were lucky to have him and damn they are lucky again this weekend. They have Kaplan. The game will just flow like they want it too. The refs we have had have been really below par. When the Lions tour here next year we should insist on a SH ref. We know how the blow. If we moaned about them this year I wont again. They are much better then the ones up north.
17 Nov 2008, 12:32 pm
#210 stodders:
Your reaction is about the same of the Scottish coaching staff.
I need to point out that the Boks were incorrectly penalised twice when metres away from the try line. Valuable momentum was lost in the process.
Another way of looking at this match was that they wanted a win and got one.
Hats off to the Scottish who kept on trying but in the end I dont think they believed that they could.
To quote Robbie Deans ” you tend to gravitate towards your thoughts”
17 Nov 2008, 12:32 pm
#212 JL1: An even bigger steaming pile of sh*t. We’re not great, but then again, we don’t pretend to be.
17 Nov 2008, 12:32 pm
#210 stodders:
Yes, you should have – and now you have to qualify for the WC too?
Seems a bit harsh for a team who almost beat the current WC champs.
17 Nov 2008, 12:33 pm
#12 World Cup: Markgraff??! Install confidence?!
17 Nov 2008, 12:33 pm
Fact: PDV is a political appointment (Hoskins et al)
Fact: You play with the cards dealt.
Many bloggers are inferring that PDV can’t choose the players he wants and that we need to get rid of the old guard. I suggest that PDV be given the carte blanche to rope in whoever he wants into the Bok side and let the chips fall where they may. The question is: how many games grace do we give PDV? Should we use the AB example and give him one game? Or, like White, give him three years (even if we suffer record defeats like we did under White…most bloggers seem to forget this fact).
Cheers
17 Nov 2008, 12:33 pm
#205 stodders: Cannot agree more. the old mantra of you need to earn respect seems to sometimes be forgotten, also the fatc rugby is a team game and no matter how big you are you cannot walk over 15 committed professionals.
Scotland showed what they have for many years ie how to play with limited resources. In fairness they were the better side on the park. Call it frustration or anger but I was actually cheering them towards the end. The boks sometimes get caught in big boy syndrome, suprised and astounded that someone smaller may actually challenge nay even beat them…..
17 Nov 2008, 12:34 pm
#214 Sheriff: I can agree with that. I think they players fought hard but lacked the belief like you said. Watch the tape of the game this week will be difficult for them when they realise the opportunity they just passed up.
17 Nov 2008, 12:34 pm
#208 cane:
Correct with Kaplan at 1.
SA refs by far the best at the moment.
17 Nov 2008, 12:34 pm
Peter Bills , writing in this mornings Cape Times is a breath of fresh air – and calls a spade a spade – none of this political correctness bullshit . He says it’s unconscionable that World Champion Springboks can deteriorate so badly in a year .
He makes his point by emphasizing that the AB turn up for every match prepared for war and give it their all . None of this limp **** stuff of a long season .
Snor – you need to fix what you’ve broken – you inherited a top of the range vehicle from White Jake , but it has neither been serviced , oil changed , tyres rotated and is about to seize .
17 Nov 2008, 12:34 pm
#201 Sheriff: it was ou second stringers…..and besides, with our first choice team we whipped England twice and easily beat Argentina. No, we didn’t have an aura, but we sure as hell weren’t struggling the way we are now.
17 Nov 2008, 12:35 pm
#220 stodders:
It’s a mental thing really.
Bok players have the same problem when playing the ABs.
It’s a terrible curse-like thing.
17 Nov 2008, 12:35 pm
#207 stodders:
Cab is a great poster here on Keo. He is one of the very few who is prepared to take in, and consider the opinions of others.
If I see a post by cab………………..I read it.
17 Nov 2008, 12:36 pm
#211 cab: Where are our great coaches down here then? Meyer has left, Mallett has left, Jake mostly works in big business now. We could have Plumtree. He is a NZ but married to a local. Really we don’t have anyone here like GH or RD. Meyer, Mallett, White they are on a par but none here to coach us. Pity.
17 Nov 2008, 12:37 pm
Boks were awful on Saturday, There is no plan, no confidence and no ideas.
Initially, I thought Peter was being smart and not giving much away as he prepared for the Lions tour but now I’m not that sure anymore…..
The ref was awful on Saturday but no-one should use that as an excuse for the way we played.
The guys look unfit, p*ssed off and as if they would rather be at a boot camp….. anything but playing rugby…
17 Nov 2008, 12:37 pm
#213 Puma: Puma not often we differ – I don’t think the ref was below par just his interpretation was different to what we expect. No different to the way it is reffed every week in the Zurich premiership, but different to S14. The commentators in the Blacks v Ireland game were equally perplexed by the Southern hemisphere interpretation.
17 Nov 2008, 12:37 pm
I’m sitting here in the sh’t house and reading all the **** that gets spewed out from the penthouse and can’t help noticing its a couple of people that still are able to recognize some reality around the hoo ha.
Simply speaking this team should be in transition. They should have moved on from the ideology and staid responses that was driven deep into their limited psyches by now, however due to blatant fear at dropping that security blanket they hold so dear, they have unfortunately reverted to that style and mode that they automatically find comfortable, hence all this halabaloo around this fictitious term called ‘structure’.
Its simply a symptom of lack of faith in their own abilities and in the new found opportunity to break out from under that cloud of robotic conservatism.
They are faced with two choices, either persevere forward and make the prize of achievement of the extra 40% theirs, or chicken out and revert to type, but then they will never become the true champions they thought they were all along.
17 Nov 2008, 12:37 pm
#223 Windhond_Sharks:
Selective memory.
17 Nov 2008, 12:37 pm
#212 JL1: Steaming pile of sh*t was a trifle harsh. Apologies. A better set of words to use instead of that phrase would be “disjointed bunch”
17 Nov 2008, 12:38 pm
Hi All
Can not wait to see what fool Snorre is gonna come up with next. Besides his unrecognizable game plan, I have no idea what he tried to do with the replacements. His inability to choose his squad wisely is backfiring on him big time. Illogical, unexplainable stupid stuff imo.
Time for him to admit he made a mistake and get the likes of Heinke vd M, Butch and kie in London.
17 Nov 2008, 12:38 pm
#225 cane: Very true cane. I imagine you were quite happy with the work of your lads on Saturday? Ireland played v badly, but then again, they were rarely allowed to play.
17 Nov 2008, 12:39 pm
cheers all.
17 Nov 2008, 12:39 pm
#215 stodders: at number 9in the world you have nothing to even pretend about and to win the RWC trophy twice is hardly pretending
17 Nov 2008, 12:39 pm
#3 stodders: What a headline.
Is there not a language ruling with online journalism??
Great Article!!
17 Nov 2008, 12:40 pm
#211 cab: What a load of rubbish – most of the kiwi coaches learn some of their trade overseas eg Henry , future coach Deans, current wales coach etc etc. How many SA coaches – Mallett aside have ever coached another country?
17 Nov 2008, 12:40 pm
#229 karamba: I agree. We were never really Champions and I honestly don’t think we ever will be without this change from structure.
Wrong players being used and the no unity is problem. So, yes, it is the coaches fault that they havn’t fixed this problem and there are ways of doing it.
17 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm
#210 stodders:
Close but no cigar, now you know how we feel 9 times out of every 10 when we play the AB’s.
17 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm
#197 Zulushark: Yep and the ABs will always say that they know they have played rugby after a test against the boks. Go figure but our coaches know better. But hey PdV and his merry men have all the answers and winning is not one of them. Inclusivity, taking the game to the masses, transformation and all the other political bullshit is how we measure our success nowdays. Whereas we could be the best and achieve all the rest now we must focus on achieving all the rest at the expense of being the best to appease those how pull the puppet’s strings. If you look at our school rugby that is where the promise is, the minute you go a step up to provincial sides that is where the politics and teh quotas start and that is whre rugby is being systematically destroyed. That I must say is the only thing that so far our administartors have done a good job of.
17 Nov 2008, 12:43 pm
#228 pedspin: Then something has to be done about that. The game has to be reffed the same here and in the NH. Cant have it reffed different in South and North. Has to be the same rules.
17 Nov 2008, 12:44 pm
#234 rangerman: Enjoy rangerman.
17 Nov 2008, 12:45 pm
Pressure is good for Habana. He is messing up, now lets see him step up to the mantle. All players experience form dips he needs to believ in himself …
No Bok should ever think their place is secure.
17 Nov 2008, 12:45 pm
In a sense one cannot expect everyone to buy in to a playing philosophy that challenges the conventional.
They like to call it helter skelter but it is actually merely the nurturing of the ability to take opportunities that exist. An insecure player will not take the opportunity cause he perceives the risk too much of a risk.
A confident player will try and try again until his belief is vindicated. That will reinforce that behaviour. The challenge will be to be patient and not to force things that’s not on.
I am not blind, I can see where PdV lacks but I still prefer the adventurous approach. But it requires maturity: you have to know what is on in a particular situation and context of the game.
17 Nov 2008, 12:46 pm
#222 shaka mehlomakulu: well said.
17 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm
#221 Sheriff: They are going to seed the refs for the S14. If it means all Saffa refs get seeded we can ref our own games agains the other S14 teams aswell. Maybe we will have some good games then.
17 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm
#220 stodders: No Stodders, the Scottish team was dead tired and injured, Frank Hadden is claimimg 10 injured players
17 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm
We need to go back to our forwards structured approach we had under Jake..
17 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm
#230 Sheriff: indeed
17 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm
#235 JL1: The world cup was won a year ago already. You didn’t even have to play above your best to win it. In the present, you are pretending.
17 Nov 2008, 12:49 pm
#225 cane:
very nice of u my friend, the feling is mutual…but can als be one-eyed at times, as can that sneaky AB fan sir stodders.
17 Nov 2008, 12:49 pm
#244 Sheriff: like the french? this ‘helter skelter’, loose, running rugby (call it what you like) seems to wark only once in a while.
17 Nov 2008, 12:49 pm
#246 Puma:
Somebody applied some logic somewhere.
They should revisit the ideal profile of a ref; almost all the non SA refs are pedantic, insecure and unfit.
17 Nov 2008, 12:50 pm
#247 JL1: JL1,
We gave our all for sure, and the Boks giving what was their worst performance of the year only helped galvanise us. But, sadly, I don’t think we believed we could beat you. until it was too late. Until our mindset changes, and i think it has a little, we will struggle to live with the big boys.
17 Nov 2008, 12:50 pm
#241 Puma: Valid point, maybe the IRB should do that instead of changing a game we love into rugby league.
Anyone else noted how rugby is taking on dimensions more and more like rugby league?
I for one think ELVs is a load of tripe.
17 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm
#244 Sheriff: Well said Sheriff.
Although I am one who would like to go back to the days of forward domination, this expansive approach has shaken up SA rugby. I remember the days when we were not competitive with the All Blacks. We would just try and go over the oppostition No thrills rugby. We were like the English of the Southern Hem. Now we have a bit more about us. We have flair which we have not seen to it’s best yet but it is deffinately there.
17 Nov 2008, 12:52 pm
Thing is though: there was not one bad bok player on the filed saturday other than habs. they all played a good game. individually that is. am i right?
17 Nov 2008, 12:52 pm
Hel, ek sien Puma hier… en Sherriff…. en JL1…. my tjomme…
Waaaaaas al die ander ouens ?? OK Pieta is seker nog aflyn, na sy dag se verbanning…. waas K9, Koning Paulus Minimus, EEE….
17 Nov 2008, 12:53 pm
#254 stodders: Well doen Stodders.. Your boys were unlucky..
17 Nov 2008, 12:53 pm
#229 karamba:
Love or loath you Skoppie……………….no one can dismiss your ability to string together a wonderful collection of words.
17 Nov 2008, 12:53 pm
#238 Bagel:
The coach has had his hands pretty much tied by the WC umbilical cord wrapped them.
It has been a painstaking attempt to break from the limitations placed over the players thinking, but the inherent fear of letting the traditional attachments go by not only some senior players but even from his own support coaching team, that in the end some big steps and decisions were not taken. Now we find ourselves in no mans land, not there and also not here, halfway to nowhere.
Some big brave steps have to be taken to break the constricting mold, then the true freedom of expression that is being sought after will take sufficient shape to become the finished article.
17 Nov 2008, 12:54 pm
#257 Windhond_Sharks: I felt jantjies was weak on attack but awesome in defence. JP is the class winger for SA right now.. He is so good in defence..
17 Nov 2008, 12:55 pm
#252 Windhond_Sharks:
You clearly do not want to understand and do not have the ability to understand what I’m saying. Which one is it? My guess is that you are trying to justify some kind of outdated belief. You can do that, but remember that in a public domain you will be confronted with the facts.
Forward- domination-only rugby is so 20th century. In the 21st century you need that and backs with skill, confidence and imagination. That is, if you want a realistic chance og being No 1.
17 Nov 2008, 12:56 pm
#220 stodders: stodders I think your team played well but we also missed a opportunity about 3 times to score. If we had taken them I honestly don”t think your team would have felt they should have won. Jean never passed twice right near your line and again Jantjes never passed near your line. Both of those should have ended up in tries. Also the ref blew Burger right on your line. There was nothing wrong with that clean out at all. He was on his feet. I watched the replay. We for sure would have scored there. So we could have had at least 3 tries. We never played well but won. It takes great teams to win when the play bad. The half time score was 10 – 0 I had my Scottish friends phoning at the break with all their wit and all fired up. I just said to them you cant count the Boks out until the very last minute. I will phone you back after the game and then we can talk. Well I did. We had a good laugh. Never mind your team are looking better than they did last year and thats a good sign. More better teams the better for rugby.
17 Nov 2008, 12:57 pm
#262 Tbozknows: i thought JP had a great game, except for that fumble in his 22.
The Rapport gave him a 5 out of 10.
17 Nov 2008, 12:57 pm
#234 rangerman:
If you run into Big Hit…………………….give him a swift kick in the balls, and tell him you are sorry…………but that was from cane.
17 Nov 2008, 12:57 pm
Jean Devilliers is the best center in the world. He has to be..
17 Nov 2008, 12:58 pm
#261 karamba: Exactly those decisions needed to be made. He has now dug himself a hole. Players like Burger, Matfield, Botha and Smith who aren’t buying into it are now seen as the victims and he going to struggle to drop now before a test at Twickenham which we may just lose and it may just end his career.
17 Nov 2008, 12:59 pm
#256 Tbozknows:
The guys are not playing as a unit.
When last did you see a ball going from 6 to 7 or from 7 to 8. We have 3 loosies playing as individuals.
That’s one of the key difference between us and the Kiwis. When they break the line they begin to scan for the man in a better position.
17 Nov 2008, 12:59 pm
After the WC everybody agreed that the core of the team will carry SA through to next WC with great success.
Our troubles started by trying o fix what was not broken. We fired SA’s most successful coach. We overlook the overseas based players. We include players that are out of form, that is half injured, pick players out of position. For what? To experiment a new type of game style? What’s wrong with winning rugby? I hope something dramatic changes from now to Saturday.
17 Nov 2008, 12:59 pm
#256 Tbozknows: The way to play rugby is to put 15 on the board then to start paying expansively. That is what Mallett did with great success. Now we just play with no direction.When we realise that what we have ben told to do gets us nowhere the others haev put 15 on the board. PdV is too whatever to see that. WE think that a 66% winning record is good. The ABs go into mourning when they loose 1 out of 30. That is how we should think and until then our focus will remain wrong.
17 Nov 2008, 12:59 pm
#258 grootblousmile:
Oubaas…
17 Nov 2008, 13:00 pm
While phonong Niel De Kock someone slip the Bok Management BJ Bothas number…please!!
17 Nov 2008, 13:00 pm
#265 Windhond_Sharks: I though 5 is harsh on JP..JDV deserved a 7 out of 10 he is awesome… the Boks as a team were 5 out of 10 and we still won.
17 Nov 2008, 13:00 pm
I live in Paarl and recon that PDV would be lucky to get a job as my gardener as he would not be able to communicate with my plants. Being a head coach is about being able to communicate with your players ! that is why teachers often make good coaches.
I’m sorry but PDV just can’t communicate and thus can’t convey his game plan to his players.
17 Nov 2008, 13:00 pm
#254 stodders: I think your team will play well in the coming 6 nations. When I watch 6 nations I always support the Scottish but they have not been good in the last few years. I think they are looking much better right now. You have a good scrum and your players are not afraid to run. I just think the other 6 nations wont just walk over your team.
17 Nov 2008, 13:00 pm
261 karamba: if only the cord could be taken away from his hands and used around his mouth. What brave steps are you talking about?
17 Nov 2008, 13:01 pm
#273 grant10: He should be calling BJ but heard he is calling for JdP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He really should have called his best TH for the England game. BJ is just a phone call away and would have been with the team already in training.
17 Nov 2008, 13:01 pm
#257 Windhond_Sharks: I thought JPP had a very good game, but JJ Harmse disagread.
17 Nov 2008, 13:02 pm
#267 Tbozknows:
Sterling…………………………………..full stop……………period…………end of story.
17 Nov 2008, 13:02 pm
#276 ruggalover: LOL
17 Nov 2008, 13:02 pm
#263 Sheriff: You seem to know a little more than me, so tell me this:
Do the All Blacks (no.1 as you put it) play with skilled backs?
If so: Why do i not see Ali WIlliams run at center? Or richie macaw and rodney take the ball on the wing….constantly in one game.
I do see them at the breakdown however…..constantly, in one game.
But what do i know, this new 21st century game you’re talking is too complicated for my small mind.
17 Nov 2008, 13:02 pm
#272 Sheriff: Hello seun, hoe gaan dit vandag met die jonger geslag ?
17 Nov 2008, 13:03 pm
#271 Objective 101: Especially in the Northern Hem. You need to be more pragmatic with your rubgy i.e points on board then tries.. That is what the Ozzies did to great effect on Saturday. We need to keep it simple first..
17 Nov 2008, 13:03 pm
Go back to the **** under Jake and go absolutely nowhere. Do it I dare you to, but then it shows exactly what a powder puff bunch of sissy boys we have become, if they are not prepared to stretch the envelope beyond their limitations then I will have to concede there is no f.ng hope for this rugby nation to ever be as great as they once were.
17 Nov 2008, 13:04 pm
#269 Sheriff:
You’re right. it seems as if everybody is desperate to show there worth. Explains why Jean dV held on to long on 2 occasions, Brian M tries to dive through 4 players on his own half meter form goal line rather than recycling the ball etc.
We are not playing towards each other, typical a product of the expansive type game of Snorre. Players tend to want to do too much on their own.
17 Nov 2008, 13:04 pm
#279 cane: I would have agreed with you a few years ago but this is JDV’s year. He is so consistent.
17 Nov 2008, 13:04 pm
#278 It is just a game: see my post at 265
17 Nov 2008, 13:04 pm
Go Boks!! World Champs
17 Nov 2008, 13:05 pm
#244 Sheriff: So you have just won the world cup, you are (speaking after world cup) the number one rated team in the world. New caoch – new philosophy, ok I buy that for a bit…. well actually not sure why one should change somehting that is working. But hey lets give the new guy a go.
You talk in the media and contradict yourself with virtually every interview. Your team gets soundly beaten in all games bar one. (Not counting a lucky win) You then play teams getting destroyed by the average All Back second team – Lets face it the current all black team is by no means vintage – and scrape a victory against the run of play.
I am all about getting players to think, play what is in front of you etc. I even applaud some of PDV selections and ideas but he is not a international coach of calibre and I for one would choosee boring if it meant victory any day.
Where does it say anywhere one needs to play exciting rugby with flair. I admit it looks nice but these changes take place over long periods of time. Speak to kiwis and they’ll tell you a lot of their game is engrained from school. So too the Aussies.
Sorry Sherriff but as much as I love the ideology I for one see is as a move away from what is our natural strength and a move into the A/B and Aussies hands as we will always be playing catch up.
17 Nov 2008, 13:06 pm
#286 Tbozknows:
Right, and O Driscoll is nowhere?
17 Nov 2008, 13:07 pm
#276 ruggalover: Karamaba? Sounds like Skoppie to me. In the old days the generals were the ones who went to battle first in front of their troops. Maybe a bit of that would help PdV.
17 Nov 2008, 13:07 pm
#28 greatest13gerber:
You are an idiot mate, always have been and always will be. Either find a stuttering therapist or fix your key board… Pipe! Back off on Smit, he proved you wrong at Cardiff and began well at Prop again before shifting to Hooker again. Now go back to learning for your GRADE 8 EXAMS.
17 Nov 2008, 13:07 pm
any news on the injury front…Bissy…FDP GUTHRO…????
17 Nov 2008, 13:09 pm
So SA Rugby is officially in the toilet ?
17 Nov 2008, 13:09 pm
#290 Richie_7: O Driscoll is finished. What did he do on Saturday or the world cup for that matter. This is JDV’s year.. Atleast mention Nonu or Smith, or Sterling..
17 Nov 2008, 13:10 pm
#281 Windhond_Sharks:
Mate I know probably half of what you know.
But it’s the logic that I’m interested in. I am tired of reading “go back to structure” I say K*K MAN to all those who say that. At least 60- 70% of SA rugby community say that.
I dont have to tell you about the AB game. You know how they play.
You will NEVER beat AB or even Aus with Robbie Deans there with that structure k*k. The fundamental problem with it is that it is simply outdated, the game keeps on evolving.
LISTEN TO ME: YOU NEED YOUR STRUCTURE K*K AND THE ABILITY TO STRIKE WHEN IT’S ON.
17 Nov 2008, 13:10 pm
#287 Windhond_Sharks: Rapport gave him a four actually. There were two players that got a four but I cant remember the other one.
17 Nov 2008, 13:11 pm
#293 grant10: The last I heard here they were coming home? Not so sure about it though.
17 Nov 2008, 13:11 pm
#282 grootblousmile:
Ag ouwhaas, nie te sleg nie en uself?
17 Nov 2008, 13:11 pm
#293 grant10: Not Fdp. Not sure if he is coming home.
17 Nov 2008, 13:12 pm
#297 It is just a game: That is Harsh, coz JP was immense..
17 Nov 2008, 13:12 pm
Cheers all out of here now.
17 Nov 2008, 13:13 pm
#285 Isigidi:
That is where the coach is failing; he must get his team to focus on one goal but to get there as a unit.
Plum emphasised that at the Sharks and look what they achieved…
17 Nov 2008, 13:13 pm
#299 Sheriff: Lekwarrrrrrr diekant man… geen klagtes nie !
17 Nov 2008, 13:14 pm
If SA rugby wasnt in the toilet after Newlands, it was certainly picking up the newspaper and heading that way
17 Nov 2008, 13:14 pm
I have spoken to a mate that reckons that JDV also crocked!! That will mean Bissy, Guthro FDP and JDV possibly out.
17 Nov 2008, 13:17 pm
#306 grant10: That is terrible news..
17 Nov 2008, 13:17 pm
chokers to lose to wales this weekend. World Champs to demolish average england
17 Nov 2008, 13:18 pm
#306 grant10: Then Steyn must play. JdV cost us two tries on Sat by not passing. Still a great player but sometimes a little selfesh. Steyn can fit in well. Then there is also JF. No problems there. Its at TH we need BJ. I think PdV will put Chilliboy on the bench to cover for 2. He has hardly had any game time. Just aswell we only have one more game left to play. Boys tired and a lot of injuries now.
Cheers grant10. I am out of here now.
17 Nov 2008, 13:18 pm
#268 Bagel:
You can see it clear as day as can I, but these dyed in the wool traditionalists will never see it. Rugby is a game for the brave not the chicken hearted. They are all a bunch of scaredy cat bale out chicken runners that are unable to punch through with the mission to become the greatest. They are satisfied with 2nd best as they most times have been.
That old hat way of producing 49-0 defeats should be dead and buried by now, yet they hanker after it like it was their very own mothers milk.
Butch should have gone before the tri nations, Smit should have been allowed to bow out gracefully like Monty, Burger should be benched until he learns the values of continuity and discipline, Habana should be sidelined until he gets his confidence or hunger back.
All the opportunities have been abundant to progress from where we left off in 2007 instead we decided to chicken out and put the momentum into reverse. That is why they’re pulling their hair out.
If they are not prepared to take the challenges head on then its going to be one hell of a long road to recovery, believe me.
17 Nov 2008, 13:19 pm
# Tbozknows: I almost choked on my Sunday braai tjoppie when I read the sh*t Harmse wrote. JPP was good on defence and there was a lot more purpose to his up & unders than that of Jantjes.
17 Nov 2008, 13:19 pm
#305 vindicated:
I think he means SA Rugby magazine is in the toilet as toilet reading no?
17 Nov 2008, 13:20 pm
#310 karamba:
Why dont you just change your name to your original nick, or was the ban permanent?
17 Nov 2008, 13:21 pm
En vir die Kiwi supporters wil ek net se dat as O’Gara nie so kuk geskop het nie kon die Iere n goeie kans gehaat het om te wen.
17 Nov 2008, 13:21 pm
#289 pedspin:
No need to say sorry. That’s your problem.
I put it to you that if we faced NZ in the RWC final they would have beaten us by say 5 – 7 points. But that’s a debate for another day.
They had problems of their own then. Even at this time they rely heavily on Richie and Dan. So let’s not give them too much credit. Credit to the Boks who had a goal and achieved it, it was a sweet victory.
I’m looking at a Bok team who has the talent to beat NZ 6 to 7 times out of 10; question is: do they have the necessary belief and confidence? You simply have to beat NZ at their own game (they have embraced the complete game some time ago btw)
17 Nov 2008, 13:22 pm
#311 It is just a game:
What do you expect, he learned from the best. A certain Mr Q van Rooyen?
17 Nov 2008, 13:22 pm
#304 grootblousmile:
Jy sien dit is wat ek nou die dag sê wat ek so van jou hou, nie so donners fyngevoelig soos baie bloggers nie.
Weet wanneer iemand net ‘n grappie maak.
17 Nov 2008, 13:22 pm
#311 It is just a game: exactly.
Every time Jantjie joined the line he dropped the ball or gave a dodgey pass.
17 Nov 2008, 13:23 pm
Die Shizerhuisen
Hows my dutch, Dutchmen ?
17 Nov 2008, 13:23 pm
#305 vindicated:
53-8.
17 Nov 2008, 13:25 pm
chokers chokers chokers! ab’s to take a hammering from wales
17 Nov 2008, 13:25 pm
I think it is ludicrous to not play Habana against England. He is playing badly but his defensive qualitites are needed against potentially England’s best ever back three..
17 Nov 2008, 13:26 pm
#296 Sheriff: Yeah but what is the point is spreading the ball wide when there is no space like on Saturday?
First in any rugby match is to put points on the board, no matter how they come or how you have to play to get them there. Once you are ahead by more than 7 then it is easy to spread teh ball wide as you are under no pressure. To spred the ball wide and tak 50/50 chances when you ar trailing is simply stupid.
The Aussies haeva very definte way in which they paly and the current team is executing Dean’s plans very well. We have no plan, might as well play touch or 7 a side. Mallett managed to achieve both so far PdV has achieved nothing either than changing a system that saw us taking the WC.
17 Nov 2008, 13:27 pm
The only player who deserved a eight or higher was Juan. If he didn’t take out Patterson the Boks would’ve seen their asses.
17 Nov 2008, 13:27 pm
#320 Sheriff: 2-1 against home ground advantage plus Mandela Cup
We won when it mattered
17 Nov 2008, 13:27 pm
#317 Sheriff: Hehehehe
Eergisternag en gister was ek taamlik fyngevoellig toe paar wetters oppie blog my vrou beledig…. hehehe
Toe vloek ek en Pietman maar hulle moerre suur !
Hahaha
17 Nov 2008, 13:30 pm
#323 Objective 101:
You will not change your views or reconsider.
You will never become objective 102, 103 and so on …
17 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm
323 objective: yip,without the basics and good strategies the boks might as well play like the pacific islanders..which are great matches to watch if you don’t have to support the islanders
17 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm
#326 grootblousmile:
Mirrag Bloutumus
17 Nov 2008, 13:32 pm
#325 vindicated:
Actually delighted to see you here on keo.
Was concerned that you would use that rope (for the purpose that Tamana wanted to)
17 Nov 2008, 13:32 pm
#329 Isigidi: Bloutumus ??
BlouOPTIMUS !!
17 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm
#310 karamba:
Howzit skoppie?
I was looking out for you yesterday there in Banland, I only made a brief guest appearance, saw you in distance, you and folanke seemed to be occupied at the time.
So, I ‘ schadaddled’ out of there, cold place that, ‘daar is n ysige windjie wat daar deur die krake waai’.
Cheers bru, I am on parole, don’t want to push my luck with the ‘mod’ here,
I promised to behave from now on.
17 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm
#315 Sheriff: Damn justed typed a decent response only to lose it.
I suspect we want the same result. My point is (and maybe I am one of the doubters and old regime type problem guys who cannot change) that I don’t think we will ever beat the blacks playing their game. That is why its their game and not ours. We need to be leaders and agreed maybe adapt our game a bit – but this needs to be around our natural strengths.
Now my contention is that PDV is not the guy to do this. Simple. Players are not without fault but I have not seen anything eyt to warrant my trust to PDV.
17 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm
LOVING that title Keo!
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
I would say Habana’s lack of form is largely due to no plan whatsoever to get him into the game by the coaching staff. That meant his try count slowed down and people started asking questions. It was only then, that his form started to drop which I would put largely, down to confidence. After that is just becomes a snow balling effect.
Unfortunately, rugby like life, is a series of peaks and troughs. We’ve had our peak with a RWC win……it seems we have now fallen into, and are still falling into the depths of the trough.
17 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm
#326 grootblousmile:
Ons het maar almal ons af dae, maar om jou vrou te beledig is 400% onaanvaarbaar.
Naweke is lekker rof hier op keo blyk dit te skyn
17 Nov 2008, 13:35 pm
Bonteheuwel netbal span sal die poefterbokkies op hulle moer gee ek se. My liewe auntie se kos, maar ek was skoon embaress met die spel van die bokke. Ek was dik de moer in mense.
17 Nov 2008, 13:35 pm
Mirrag djulle edeleegbaars
17 Nov 2008, 13:36 pm
Coaching tip number one:
Pick the best specialist players available to you in each position.
Coaching tip number two:
Go back to coaching tip number one and get it right.
Coaching tip number three:
Do not go any further until you have completed coaching tips one and two successfully.
Coaching tip number four:
If you have not completed tips one, two and three successfully then resign.
17 Nov 2008, 13:37 pm
#338 tight head:
Ek se al lankal djy moet die bokke afrig TH. Djy ken die basics my bra.
17 Nov 2008, 13:37 pm
#313 PissAnt:
Far as I know it was a red. As to how permanent it is I guess is up to you and the establishment
Could be the cue for another change that question..
17 Nov 2008, 13:39 pm
Keo mag djy die ‘****’ naam gebruik in djou headlines. Ek gaat vir Roy se djy vloek my bra.
17 Nov 2008, 13:41 pm
#333 pedspin:
The problem is that the ABs play the game or attempt to play the game the way it should be played.
Of course you need to use your natural strengths but the fundamental flaw of what you’re saying is that we have certain strengths and that’s how it will be forever and ever, amen.
What happened to getting better over time?
Ex players (especially those who played in the 80′s) keep on saying that our traditional strength is this and that. But since re-admission 1992 we have seldom dominated in the areas that they hold on so dearly. Currie Cup rugby is after all not international rugby.
We have not had 1 dominating tight head since Cobus Visagie yet SA rugby public maintain that we need to return to scrum domination. It’s a myth.
17 Nov 2008, 13:41 pm
#341 Ethel: Solank Keo net jou bra vloek en nie jou panty nie is alles nog OK !
17 Nov 2008, 13:42 pm
Mirrag almal,
genade mense het ek gestres na die eerste helfde!!!! Wat gaan aan met ons bokke, hoe kan spelers so verander? praat nou van Spies en Habana, ek weet dat mens afgames kan he en so aan maar van briljant na dit? dis presies wat die bulle gedoen het toe FL oorgevat het, dis belaglik en onvergeeflik, miskien moet hulle maar proteas word want hulle speel soos pap blommetjies!!!!
17 Nov 2008, 13:42 pm
#338 tight head:
Couch coach coaching rule nr 1…. Pass die nokkin ball!!!!!!!!
17 Nov 2008, 13:42 pm
#343 grootblousmile:
weer opjou stukke vandag maiki?
17 Nov 2008, 13:43 pm
Let’s just put it straight…
Jantjies vs. Stefan Terblanche…
Stefan was the best Fullback in SA during the s14 and the CC; I need not remind anybody of his heroic display of superior skills, especially when competing for the ball in the air on that telling and pressure pot day. But sadly and shockingly… Jantjies is in the team and 3/4s of the team knows that he is not nearly at Sefans’s level!!! Even Frans Steyn would be light-years better at Fullback. But he is on the bench???
Mujati…
He can not scrum and he disappear in the contact… he is probably the 5th best prop in his position yet he make the team. He received a scrumming lesson but I hope he (and Snor) realize that the English have even better props. Again 3/4s of the team knows he doesn’t belong there and see on a daily basis his mediocre performance in the gym and on the training field!!!
Jacobs…
For all his skills and excitement, he fades in the wet. He is good and he belongs in the squad but he doesn’t have the strength and the pedigree of Jacque Fourie. The day JF started playing for Tvl at fullback, everybody could see this mans got something. When he plays, he scores tries, tackle the big forwards in his channel, win turnover ball and have one of the highest strike rates amongst the SA centers. He and JD is a seasoned combination; keeping them together is a sound future investment!
JPP…
He is fast, he is very Stupid and that is it; when he gets the ball and has support with him he kicks it in the air. When he has no support he runs into 3 of the opposition players and hand them a useful penalty. Again Stefan Terblanche has forgotten what JPP still needs to learn. Louis Ludick deserved a chance a season ago.
PdV…
He is out of his depth, I know it, the majority of supporters know it, the better (deserving) coaches know it, the opposition and their coaches knows it and the worst part… the Springbok TEAM knows it!
Pieter… Where is Heincke vd Merwe, Johan Muller and Butch James, Stefan terblanche, Louis Ludick, Jean Deyzel(if you want to develop raw talent?), CJ and/or BJ?
The problems in this team, is moral and BELIEVE…
How can you trust and believe in the player next to you, if you know he is somewhere between second and 5th best? How can you trust a coach if he can not even speak sense when he talks to the media, let alone communicate his “game plan” to you or give “advice” to a 70 test cap player if it makes no sense? How can you BELIEVE in him and how long will you be able to keep up your “ACT” before the lies will ripple into the team moral?
Believe is almost everything in sport and a team that have a “no to racism” star on the shirt… will never believe if they must suffer because of REVERSE RACISM!!!
17 Nov 2008, 13:43 pm
#343 grootblousmile: Djy mekes me laaf my vrind. Ek sien daai mense was lekka lelik met djou. Moer hulle se ekke wat Ethel is. Hulle kom polute ons space my bra oops my panti
17 Nov 2008, 13:44 pm
#345 Isigidi:
Couch coach coaching rule nr 2…..vang die nokkin ball!!!!!!
Couch coach coaching rule nr 3…..hou vas aan die nokkin ball en moenie hom laat val nie!!!!!!
17 Nov 2008, 13:44 pm
why is everyone negative about this. we demolished the scots, roll on WC Champs!
17 Nov 2008, 13:44 pm
#344 EEE: Djy was lanklaas hier na! Hoesit my cherry van Chenturion?
17 Nov 2008, 13:44 pm
#340 karamba:
I will support your comeback.
17 Nov 2008, 13:45 pm
#348 Ethel: nou wie was lelik met GBS? en wanneer? en waar is ou Pieta dan nou?
17 Nov 2008, 13:45 pm
#344 EEE:
Pap blommetjies met pap stingeltjies!
17 Nov 2008, 13:45 pm
#332 Pietman:
Howzit Piet, saw you get the over night sentence. If ever you need me to slip a hack saw into the melktert for good measure, just let me know, I’m an old hand at getting out of jail, almost as good as John Smit and his bokkies have become.
17 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm
#351 Ethel: dit gaan lekker dankie en jy Etheltjie?
17 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm
Mirrag almal. Almal suur hierso, seker met rede…wat ‘n bols-up die naweek. Dis duidelik Snor en die Bokke nie op dieselfde plan nie, baie spelers het maar baie K@K gemaak en die ref….oh moet nie dat ek eers oor die ref praat nie. Dank Vader ons het gewen.
17 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm
What gives here.
17 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm
#348 Ethel: Ek het aangebied om hulle verniet te moerrrrr, hulle hoefie eers te gepetaal hettie…. mar toe weier hulle volstrek om vir my genoeg gegewens te gee om te kom kuier…. en trek net panty oorrie kop soos hulle hoenernekkie trek !
17 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm
#354 Isigidi: sal nie eers kan pampoer pampoen speel nie
17 Nov 2008, 13:47 pm
#360 EEE: pampoer = pampoen
17 Nov 2008, 13:47 pm
#353 EEE: Nei die grapevine het vir my gesege. Ek wietie so lekka nie, maar wiet Piet en GBS het lekka kak van ‘n paar intruders gekry.
17 Nov 2008, 13:48 pm
#339 Ethel:
If you haven’t got the basics 100% right and can do them better than the opposition, then all this other talk here means nothing.
17 Nov 2008, 13:48 pm
#355 karamba:
Hehehehe!
Will do bro, thx.
Time you get out of there.
Site not the same without you.
17 Nov 2008, 13:49 pm
#356 EEE: Ooo de Kaapse weer darem. Moes die shak ontwater van al die reenweer. Vra vir Dawn dit het hardgeval hierso djong.
17 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm
awwww there is love here…. smoochies boys
17 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm
#363 tight head: Back to Basics den. I always agrees with you. You are very kleva wif de rugby my bra.
17 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm
On the phone and driving so can’t respond to any more posts but thanks TH I always knew you are the type of guy one can build a fortress on
17 Nov 2008, 13:51 pm
#342 Sheriff: I don’t think you are reading the posts at least not mine. All I am saying is put 10 or so up first then play whatever way you want. It has nothing to do with forwards or backs or expansive or tight game it has all to do with control of the game which with respect under PdV we have seen precious little of. It was not much different under JW exept for the WC but even then we had a few close shaves. I am only referring at how we played under Mallett then we controlled the game and that is why we beat the entire world at least twice over and the ABs then had a much stronger side. It all came to an end like all good things when we tried to fight one battle too many not because of the teams volition but because SARugby had to make money otherwise that final tour would have never happened. Now PdV either learns from teh sucesses of other before him like Mallett or otherwise he will soon end on the scrap heap. Personally I am not prepared to pay R 300 to go and see a team that is going to be obliterated by teh Lions, and that wil happen if we carry on like this with no plan (and note having a plan and having structure are not the same).
17 Nov 2008, 13:51 pm
#347 4teen:
Got it.
Let’s replace the black players with white players. Will do.
17 Nov 2008, 13:51 pm
#364 Pietman: Is dat Skoppadroletjie daai Karamba mannetjie.
17 Nov 2008, 13:51 pm
#365 Ethel: hier by ons ook ****, die afgelope twee weke, en lyk my dit gaan nog aangaan……….
17 Nov 2008, 13:52 pm
I haven’t celebrated a try by Habana since he dashed Shark Dreams in 2007. In saying that however, I am a SA fan and was pleased that he contributed to a springbok wc triumph.
However, his strike rate is dropping, his aura is also dropping and I agree with Campese about him resting on his laurels.
If he wants to continue being a world superstar celebrity (ala Tiger, Federer and Henry) he needs to go another level higher and i dont think blaming coaching techniques etc is the correct.,
His handling lets him down on numerous occassions. Take a look back, even when he was in breathtaking form – he had a penchant for spilling the ball at inopportune occasions.
Anyway another blot on his record was Ngwenya at the World Cup – that must have seriously dented his confidence and proved his fallibility. (not forgetting Oupa Stefan Terblanche) as well.
anyway, i hope he gets his form back and doesn’t disappoint his die hard fans.
17 Nov 2008, 13:52 pm
#367 Ethel:
No I am a dumb prop, who knows that you cannot talk about grade 10 when you have not even passed grade 7!!
17 Nov 2008, 13:54 pm
#372 EEE: Ek kan nie my stock op kry vir djulle Vaalies nie want dit reen te veel en die see is so ontstuimig
My pryse gaan stuig djong 
17 Nov 2008, 13:54 pm
#342 Sheriff: I suspect we will disagree on this one Sherriff.
The reason we don’t move for is unfortunately outside rugby. To be the best you need to have the best coaches (now that may not always be south african – Mallett is the only real quality in new era – not counting Kitch) and you need the best possible players (chosen on merit and merit only). And finally one needs to get rid of an arrogance that has always resided in SA Rugby eg Saturdays game and the fact that if you pick a bloke that is massive and strong he will always be the best prop in the world.
Those aside our natural talent is big, physical, fast guys. Over and above that and maybe this is your point we need to learn to tap into our other strenths coming through. Now coached correctly un-imcumbered with politics we cannot be matched IMO.
17 Nov 2008, 13:54 pm
#371 Ethel: dink so….
Hallo daar Pietman, wie het so met jou en GBS gesukkel? was dit weer daai Hater dude en sy gespuis?
17 Nov 2008, 13:55 pm
#373 jdjames: Don’t think Habana is 100% fit physically and mentally. He is carrying a doubtful shoulder and that imparts on his game. Drop him and give Fourie a run. I would normally say let a player of his class run himself into form but you can’t apply that plan when the guy is carrying baggage.
17 Nov 2008, 13:55 pm
#375 Ethel: Damn….hehehehe, hierdie Vaalie gaan nie hierdie jaar see toe nie!!!! so my tjeld bly my eie!!!!! hehehehehe
17 Nov 2008, 13:56 pm
La’t ek gaan werk….. julle rob my geldjies hier as ek kukpraat !
Dammit !
17 Nov 2008, 13:56 pm
#374 tight head: Naai ek wiet my bra ekkanie oor enige grade praatie want ek hettie die grade ding nie. Maar een ding is 4sure en dit is dat ek ‘n grote bok siporter is en wil sien dat daai klomp drolle bieta moet spieel ekse.
17 Nov 2008, 13:56 pm
#370 Sheriff: No mister… just replace mediocre with merit and the competent!
17 Nov 2008, 13:56 pm
#377 EEE: 3 droeë drolle….
17 Nov 2008, 13:57 pm
Habana’s biggest problem is that he has a white girlfriend.
After the racism I read on that character card thread, I have absolutely no problem saying this.
17 Nov 2008, 13:58 pm
#380 grootblousmile: Djy moet spaar en by Ethels Snoekery kom spend djong. Dit is lekka in Kalk Bay my bra.
17 Nov 2008, 13:58 pm
Everyone seems to be reading to much into our world cup win. We should be used to this sub std performance from travelling Boks who have battled in the autumn tests for some time now. Re: the world cup lets look at it with a dose of realism. We beat Samoa, England x2, Tonga, USA, Fiji and Argentina (best victory). C’mon people – we weren’t tested champions. Anyone of NZ, Oz or France could have taken us. Sure we hold the cup but lets not use PdV ‘look at the scoreboard’ logic, ey?
17 Nov 2008, 13:59 pm
#377 EEE:
Nee, n oud-Fapla, van moz, met n AK 47 nogal…
Ek hou net daarvan hulle moet die manne se moeders en vrou vloek nie, toe raak ek bitjie woes.
Roy had no choice, he had to give me a bincard.
I used some bad language, words I didn’t even know I knew!
17 Nov 2008, 13:59 pm
#369 Objective 101:
The problem objection 101 is that you dont like to use separate paragraphs
I like short and to the point posts.
PdV was part of the arrogant Mallett’s coaching staff. You keep on blaming PdV but I say it’s the execution of the plan. I agree with you tho, they need to build a solid platform before unleashing.
Your mistake is that you thought when we won the RWC2007 that we are the best side on the planet. Reflect on this.
17 Nov 2008, 13:59 pm
#384 Dawn: Awah
17 Nov 2008, 13:59 pm
#378 RugbyRulz: I agree totally, he has been nursing that injury for the whole year already and it definitely aaffects his game as he is scared to run into spaces etc, one can see it when he catches and passes etc, and also mentally, I say send him home and he can have a good few weeks off before training for s14 starts again
17 Nov 2008, 14:00 pm
#376 pedspin: Ped you play the cards you’re dealt. If Saru deal restrictions ( cards dealt ) then Saru plays them. You can piss and moan all you like about **** coach, quota, WCup champions under performing., etc, etc, etc. Man you just got to roll with it.
How will you feel if or when the plan works?
17 Nov 2008, 14:00 pm
#380 grootblousmile:
Ja, ek hol ook, my perlemoen stoom woes hier, laat ek my witkepsieopsit gaan neut inrasper.
Cheers.
17 Nov 2008, 14:00 pm
#387 Pietman: So djew bek. Ten minute sinbin
17 Nov 2008, 14:01 pm
As much as i like adi,i would love the jdv and fourie combo again that was one of the best centre combo’s i’ve seen.they created so much and the wings had space to run in and did not get the ball with 4 defenders in front of them
17 Nov 2008, 14:02 pm
#390 EEE: I reckon it will take more than a few weeks. Habs is a small package with the obligatory big ego ( small man syndrome ) so the STAR (that I believe he is) needs extra care both physically and mentally. Get the kid right please. Im an Aussie and I love to watch him play.
17 Nov 2008, 14:03 pm
#387 Pietman: good grief, gelukkig was ek nie hier nie want dan sou almal gedink het ek is ‘n matroos en glo my, ek weet presies watter vloekwoorde ek ken
17 Nov 2008, 14:04 pm
#394 ruggalover: Agree they gel nicely. As much as I like Adi I prefer him as a fresh legs player. He can cut teams up off the bench so I feel as a starter he is wasted.
17 Nov 2008, 14:04 pm
#396 EEE: Neiman djy is nie van die flats nie – djy ken geen grote worde nie.
17 Nov 2008, 14:05 pm
#376 pedspin:
No problem. Just remember one thing: I am prepared to change my point of view if you can show me clearly that my current position is flawed.
Only time will tell whether PdV is indeed the man or not.
What will leave a bad taste in the mouth will be when the white journalists (and 98% are white) will say if PdV retains the WC in 2011 – he did it is with Jake’s players and game plan. Hope you will not be among them.
17 Nov 2008, 14:05 pm
I jest *** to say hello to all. Must go werk now
17 Nov 2008, 14:06 pm
#395 RugbyRulz: this is true but dont think we have the knowhow in SA to be able to help him sort this out………and he is really a true star……and of course he must sort out this problem of him haveing a white girlfriend, he Dawn
17 Nov 2008, 14:08 pm
#398 Ethel: dis wat julle dink…..hehehehe, ek probeer om my te gedra maar dan moet julle my **** as ek op die N1 in die blerrie verkeer sit…..
17 Nov 2008, 14:09 pm
Haban = no opportunity. Why everyone on the poor guy’s back. Shame on you Keo. So short sighted and sensationalist.
17 Nov 2008, 14:09 pm
397 rugbyrulz: never knew that are an aussie.talking about centre’s,don’t you think mortlock looks a bit lost at 12,he’s such a gr8 player but seems to have excelled lately at 13 only
17 Nov 2008, 14:10 pm
#403 Desertfaffa: the thing is, if the ball never came to him he would go looking for it all over the field, this is not happening anymore,
17 Nov 2008, 14:10 pm
#403 Desertfaffa: what is a faffa?
17 Nov 2008, 14:11 pm
jeez
but
this site is busy today, huh?
..
just wondering where everyone was when the experiment with jsmit (at tighthead) and ruan (at flyhalf) worked?
..
but ag well, maybe i’m just imagining things!
17 Nov 2008, 14:12 pm
#391 RugbyRulz: You mean we win a game like the one against Australia… Unfortunately I don’t believe test rugby is about that or pretty rugby as a norm….. I may be wrong. (Maybe spent too much time in the forwards) I agreed it would be lovely to see beautiful rugby and your team doing it week in week out. In short that is not going to happen.
On the second point. I like most South Africans am sick of rolling with it. Best pool of talent in the world yet battle to bring back many medals from the olympics, football side battles to feature in African never mind World Football and a mediocre rugby side blighted with mis-management and a farce for a coach. The list is endless – it will not stop my support, but it won’t stop me from saying that it is wrong.
17 Nov 2008, 14:12 pm
#403 Desertfaffa:
no oppertunity …
to knock on?
disagree, he had a few and
he did just that!!
17 Nov 2008, 14:13 pm
#406 EEE:
Seker ‘n ander naam vir Francois
17 Nov 2008, 14:14 pm
# EEE: Maybe its me that needs sorting. Would it be better if his girlfriend was green with purple stripes?
Geez seems strange that the USofA has voted a guy of mixed bloods as their new President so why on earth is Habs girl and issue?
17 Nov 2008, 14:14 pm
#406 EEE: Dis Faffa Knoetse.
17 Nov 2008, 14:16 pm
Who thinks that Kankowski should get a start against England?
change it up a bit..
17 Nov 2008, 14:16 pm
WP legend
17 Nov 2008, 14:16 pm
#399 Sheriff: That they could never say. Lets hope he gets it right for all. I am pessimistic, though I will be cheering if he does.
17 Nov 2008, 14:17 pm
#411 RugbyRulz: not me RR, but Dawn…..I was teasing Dawn……….I have no problem with that
#412 Rum And Maple: Of course silly me hehehehehe
17 Nov 2008, 14:17 pm
#404 ruggalover: Yes Mortlock is a **** inside centre. Choices were limited when Barnes was injured so Mort stepped into the breach. Im sure the decision wasn’t a hard one as the opposition was England….. they’re not flash in that department so it wasn’t an issue. Don’t feel we will get off so lightly there against the French, they step a little more lively
Could be a problem… we shall see.
17 Nov 2008, 14:18 pm
Keep the faith with Habana. Class/permanent/cream/top all the cliches. Predict on Saturday SA will be habana good time. Apologise in advance for that
17 Nov 2008, 14:18 pm
#408 pedspin: And you will be heard I am certain… It only take one voice >>>>>>>> ROAR.
17 Nov 2008, 14:19 pm
#408 pedspin:
or
maybe
you just “took the ball up” one time too many?
17 Nov 2008, 14:20 pm
EEE, you can’t look for the ball when everyone is just kicking it.
how on earth do we do this whole response to someones comment business? Newbie
17 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm
#414 Desertfaffa:
Divan, Michael, Carel, Faffa, Willie, Schalk Burger, Schalla Scholtz….
one of the best WP backlines ever.
17 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm
#340 karamba:
I dont make the laws here, and I definately do not enforce them either.
17 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm
I have never been a PDV fan, but I think in this situation that we should give him the benefit of the doubt there are a few factors to take into consideration.
First of all we haven’t lost yet & I know it hasn’t been pretty, but if there’s one thing that the Rudolph Strauli era taught me about the springboks its the value of an ugly win. Its sure as hell better then a loss.
Secondly, even if PDV were to lose to England next weekend this tour could be considered more successful then most of the Northern Hemisphere tours under Jake White. Not since the Nick Mallet era have we actually been dominant in the North.
Thridly, I think I will reserve judgement until the english test.
I’d like to think about the positives of what we’ve learned on this tour. The scrum needs to be rejigged. Ruan Pienaar has not looked out of his depth at flyhalf
17 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm
#422 Pietman:
Te veel Schallas daar, Calla Scholtz bedoel ek!
17 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm
#418 Desertfaffa: Agree, he is a class player. Form at the moment shocking though, and Habs seems just as pissed off about it as us all, just look at his expressions when he knocked the ball. I believe the more chances gets created for him, the quicker he will be back to his best.
17 Nov 2008, 14:22 pm
417 rugbyrulz: agree but the french haven’t played that “champagne” rugby in a while. and people say giteau is not at his best,but even his average is pretty good!
17 Nov 2008, 14:23 pm
#421 Desertfaffa:
Click arrow next to name, the one pointing left.
17 Nov 2008, 14:23 pm
#421 Desertfaffa:
1 look at the post # you are responding to
2 besit the posters name there are arrows
click on the < back arrow and the script will be auto posted
17 Nov 2008, 14:23 pm
besit = beside
dyslexic fingers and some
17 Nov 2008, 14:24 pm
#421 Desertfaffa: just click on the left arrow next to the persons nic
17 Nov 2008, 14:24 pm
Yeah R&M i’ll agrre with that. Maybe to add to his class he should work on being able to rough out these patches without gettiong that miserable-why- can’t-i-open-my-presents-before-we-go-to-church-look.
17 Nov 2008, 14:25 pm
424 Harlequin Even if we win next weekend, you cant say this tour would be more successful than Jake who beat Scotland 45-10 in 2004, Wales 33-16 in 2005 etc. We didnt scrape past a weak scottish side
17 Nov 2008, 14:25 pm
#422 Pietman:
middag oom noag
..
hoe hang hulle?
17 Nov 2008, 14:25 pm
Its suprising how Keo has never embraced PdV.I know the boks ddnt play well.I was also disappointed,but to always put the blame on the coach,its suprising.I also think the senior guys who dnt want play the game that the coach wants them to play should just retire.We all saw what can happen(Australia game) if we played what the coach wanted.I still remember what keo and his crew said after that,STRUCTURE AND A TIRED Australia won us a game.nothing was said about PDV.He also keeps mentioning BJ botha and others like he doesnt know that they decided to sign overseas contracts behind our coaches back.Mujati is not a bad player at all,maybe not the best but among our players in SA right now,he certainly the best.You have not seen Early Rose playing,but you peeps keep saying stuff about him,like you did with Adi who later made you eat humble pie.I never hear you saying anything about steyn who I think doesnt have a position right now in the team,but becasue of his talent,nobody says anything about him,even he is selfish as usual,you fail to comment.
Maybe you need to identify what our players are doing than criticise the coach evertime you get a chance.For me is some players hold on to the ball for way too long.Running the ball in your half works for the All Blacks,why do all journalists believe SA cant do it??Habana’s form has dropped only because the ball never gets to the wings.If only we could swing the ball more than hold on to it,will see the wingers getting more involved in the game.There is no need to drop him now.Im a fan of Nokwe but when a team is playing like this,you only want your expirienced guys on the field.
Lets stop being biased when we comment.SA won the ultimate,world cup.The only way from there is down,the only question is will we drop badly or have a justifiable drop…
17 Nov 2008, 14:25 pm
#430 RugbyRulz:
common problem for most here on KEO
17 Nov 2008, 14:26 pm
#431 EEE: It wasn’t rocket science, eh? I’ll do 2 laps for that one
17 Nov 2008, 14:26 pm
#415 pedspin:
Peter has an opportunity to become one of SA’s most successful coaches, he certainly has the personnel and players to do it.
What I’m advocating is that he needs to be afforded a fair chance to do that. If he fails well then he should leave. But is he succeeds then he should be acknowledged as such.
What I’m against is the constant burning desire for him to fail and when there is success to look for reasons other than PdV. In other words, it’s hypocritical to call the players his players when they lose but Jake’s when there’s success.
If we regard ourselves as people with values then we cannot allow that to go unchallenged.
17 Nov 2008, 14:26 pm
#258 grootblousmile: Jou opsomming van die Bok probleme is spot-on
17 Nov 2008, 14:26 pm
And we need to get hold of a coach that can bring organisation, unity and structure to our pack and our approach at the breakdown. No offence to Gary Gold, he is one of the masters when it comes to plays from the set phases, but when it comes to coaching the looser aspects of the game he has come up short and I think his stint at the stormers has proved that.
17 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm
Taken from elsewhere:
After the games on the weekend, the ladder looks like this:
1 New Zealand 92.41
2 South Africa 88.44
3 Australia 86.7
4 Argentina 82.82
5 England 82.11
6 France 80.13
7 Wales 79.58
8 Ireland 77.18
9 Scotland 76.76
10 Fiji 75.24
11 Italy 74.64
So, from what I understand from the IRB website (and I can’t be sure I’ve got it 100% correct), the pools, if they were decided today, would be:
Pool A
New Zealand
England
Scotland
Oceania 1 (Tonga?)
Africa 1 (Namibia?)
Pool B
South Africa
France
Fiji
Europe 1 (Georgia?)
Asia 1 (Japan?)
Pool C
Australia
Wales
Italy
Europe 2 (Romania?)
Americas 2 (USA?)
Pool D
Argentina
Ireland
Samoa
Americas 1 (Canada?)
Play-off place (??)
Of course, there are still a number of games to go before the seedings are decided. Namely:
This week:
England v South Africa
Scotland v Canada (Scotland can’t move up now because Canada is too far behind them)
Ireland v Argentina (Argentina can secure 4th spot should they win)
Italy v Pacific Islanders (Italy can’t get any ranking points from this because the PIs don’t have any ranking points)
Wales v New Zealand
France v Australia
Next week:
England v New Zealand
Wales v Australia
Basically, the top 8 teams are sorted out now, it only depends which order they go in because Scotland, italy, Fiji and Samoa can’t move up between now and December 1
17 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm
He is a poor coach who is out of his depth, Birus, thats why Keo hasnt supported him. He should have neve been coach
17 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm
#427 ruggalover: Gits hasn’t been at his best, last Saturday was his best performance in quite a while and hopefully the corner has been turned. Possibly has a lot on his mind >> talk of him returning to his former team ( Brumbies ). Haven’t heard anything lately so I am assuming it is sorted or is on the back-burner until after the tour.
17 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm
#432 Desertfaffa: Next to a person’s nic there’s two arrows. Click the one pointin left.
17 Nov 2008, 14:28 pm
#433 WP_: I wouldn’t call that a weak Scottish side, haven’t seen the Scots play like that for quite some time, that being said, did think we would have slaughtered them….
17 Nov 2008, 14:29 pm
#438 Sheriff:
17 Nov 2008, 14:30 pm
Hi Guys
I normally go to Walter’s Transvaal webpage for movie clip downloads but he hasn’t added any recently.
Do you know where I can find any movie clips on the CC semi’s and final, as well as the bok tests?
17 Nov 2008, 14:30 pm
#433 WP_: You fail to see that we lost to ireland most of the time, we lost to england most of the time, except the year before the WC, we lost to france all the time. The only saving grace of his NH tours was the fact that he gave the scots a hiding routinely. But with PDV it 2 out of 2 so far.
17 Nov 2008, 14:30 pm
#442 WP_:
you keo’s lover?
17 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm
#435 Virus:
It would seem that the keo writers have certain guidelines.
Initially shortly after PdV was appointed they (and I mean all of them) were very positive.
Something must have happened as that just changed all of a sudden. Will they introduce a black face on Simon’s empty slot or will they keep things white, English speaking “liberal” Cape based?
17 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm
#442 WP_:
What makes him a poor coach????
Who would you prefered over him???
17 Nov 2008, 14:35 pm
De Villiers and Co. are indeed a long way from the World Champion form of 2007. One can expect a certain regression in form when disbanding a World Champion coaching team that had 4 years to mould their winning side. The failures of the current team in the Tri-Nations and less than impressive Tour form is definitely where we want the Boks to be. This said the more important question is wether this management team and their selected players could become a World Champion side in 2011.
The poor showing as World Champs in the Tri-Nations was beyond excuse, even including a big win over Australia at Ellis Park. This win can be easily written off, as Australia had one eye on the decider against the All Blacks and even chose to shuffle their side for that game. The win away in New Zealand was the highlight of the season no doubt, it was a passionate display, but sadly for the management team seemed to be led by 2007′s senior players with a gameplan that was reminiscent of the previous era.
The narrow win against European Champions Wales should be seen as another big result, granted that it was less than spectacular. However, the drivel delivered against a weak Scotland on the weekend is unforgivable. This newly implemented management and Bok team have not impressed in relation to the highs of 2007, but there is enough there for the management team to believe they are on the right track. It just seems their aim is set rather low.
2008 will pass with the jury divided on the De Villiers era, but 2009 and the Lions at home must be made a breaking point. Nothing less than a series victory can be seen as success and failure to achieve this should result in a rethink for RWC 2011. The Boks simply put must be good enough to win a home series against all opposition. This is where the focus must lie and should have been throughout 2008, which it has not. Regardless of Saturdays result against England it has not been a glorious follow-up year for the World Champions and 2009 must be seen as a “do or die” season for management and players alike.
17 Nov 2008, 14:36 pm
#388 Sheriff: No I did not, at the time we were the form team and udne rJW we did beat the ABs and the Aussies when we wanted to. JW had lots of downs with a few ups. Problem is that our U21 and U19 which where our rugby stock comes from are not as good as they were when they produced the likes of Smith, Habana, Steekamp etc. Last year U19 we were outscrummed by the poms. To win you need to be able to hold your own in the scrum otherwise you just get no ball. But we did not and we lost despite having a very good (albeit very light) backline.
My concern is with ball possession (not necessarily only retention but also with retention); we seem to have got used to playing a test with less than 50% possession against any side. To me thsi only means one thing: we cannot play going forwards. Now if you look at Malletts days we use to get more than 50% possession. That is something we need to work on or else we can expect to be worked over all the time even by sodes liek Wales and Scotland that we use to beat with comfort.
17 Nov 2008, 14:36 pm
#450 Sheriff:
Ons moet net Saterdag goed wen dan is almal se bekke weer stil.
Kyk maar.
17 Nov 2008, 14:37 pm
#452 rastafox:
2008 will pass with the jury divided on the De Villiers era, but 2009 and the Lions at home must be made a breaking point. Nothing less than a series victory can be seen as success and failure to achieve this should result in a rethink for RWC 2011.
..
agree.
17 Nov 2008, 14:38 pm
#454 Pietman: keo sin ook!
17 Nov 2008, 14:38 pm
ooops …definitely not where we want the Boks to be!!!!!
17 Nov 2008, 14:38 pm
#456 Mannetjie:
naah
dan kom hulle weer met hulle structure k@k!!
17 Nov 2008, 14:39 pm
#453 Objective 101: #454 Pietman:
Back a little later and will reply then.
17 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm
#455 asha1: Yes, but I think its safe to say that if we loose this coming Saturday – all signs are that the De Villiers era will be a failure – might even regarded as a failure already.
17 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm
#454 Pietman: there were too many guys playing on their own, some guys had good games, the team effort wasnt there, Mujati came up short. I think there’s something else wrong, maybe pay or something like that. Must say, the refs aren’t helping, the guys are at 6′s and 7′s, there isnt consistency. The All Blacks also battled on Saturday and that was MARK LAWRENCE, so maybe the revised more intensive looking at the breakdown area is effecting everyones game.
17 Nov 2008, 14:41 pm
#452 rastafox: JA, I agree, This Bok team should not loose ANY home games, and we loose against NZ without a single piont and let Oz win for the first time in 10 years.
The Lions tour is going to be a sad joke for us, if things continue on this way.
What is also interesteing is the “lyftaal” (body language) of the players now vs the CC final. I sometimes wonder if they want to be in the Bok squad.
17 Nov 2008, 14:43 pm
What did I miss?
17 Nov 2008, 14:43 pm
Did we lose this weekend? I don’t remember seeing us lose.
We’re still on track for a Grand Slam, aren’t we? And for goyougoodthing2 to change his nick and eat humble pie?
17 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm
#461 4man:
Yes, this continual shouting by the refs of ‘stay on your feet stay, on your feet’ is driving me up the wall.
Nonsense rule that.
How can you stay on your feet and reach for a ball 2 meters away when everyone are pushing up your backside and eventually topple you?
17 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm
#453 Objective 101: Therefore your belief is that for a strong bok team going forward you need more than 50% possession. Hmmm… If the Wallabies or the All Blacks thought that way they wouldn’t win games at all. Perhaps that is why PDV is trying to change the mindset.
17 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm
#464 WP Till I Die:
We are dead on target still, don’t know what all the fuzz is about.
17 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm
#465 Pietman: Watch McGaw and Smith and Burger (sometimes). They manage to do it before the cavalry get there.
17 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm
#462 LondonBul: I have a heard from one of the senior players in the team that they it much more to play for their repsective unions…
17 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm
I don’t understand some of the selections. Kanko is up for half the awards yet he’s benched and Jongi is dropped after he score 4 tries against the Aussies.
Boks need to pick themselves up. They showed us that they can make it work. Or do we need to boo them before the match?
17 Nov 2008, 14:47 pm
435 virus: people blame senior players,new players,assistant coaches.but who picks the players,who chooses the assistant coaches.who ultimately is responsible for the direction,strategies and combinations..its the coach.to be consistent with thread,pdv needs to **** or get off the pot.i think he will be a good coach one day at international level,but right now he is out of his depth
17 Nov 2008, 14:48 pm
#467 Pietman: I agree – but I think there are some cracks opening up…
17 Nov 2008, 14:48 pm
So I see the old formula holds:
1) If playing an expansive game, and the Boks lose – it is Peter de Villiers’s fault because his game plan is flawed
2) If playing an expansive game, and the Boks win – it is because of the Senior Players’ Council (TM) who used a structured approach initially to set up the platform for a loose game later on, not at all due to the coach
3) If playing a direct/structured game, and the Boks lose – it is Peter de Villiers’s fault because of “poor execution of the game plan”
4) If playing a direct/structured game, and the Boks win – it is due to the Senior Players’ Council (TM) running the show, due to Jake White’s game plan being used, and due to PdV using Jake White’s players
Is that more or less accurate? Seems to be the case – the poor oke is on a hiding to nothing no matter what he does.
17 Nov 2008, 14:48 pm
#470 SpringbokSarah: Please sarah… no disrespect for Jongi… but if the ball got to a winger the Scots would have snapped him like a toothpick.
17 Nov 2008, 14:48 pm
#465 Pietman: I agree…its stupid, guys will fall over, theres no question.
17 Nov 2008, 14:48 pm
#452 rastafox:
“Die” seems to be the key word.
17 Nov 2008, 14:49 pm
#469 Mannetjie:
blah blah blah
and i’ve talked to
blah blah blah
17 Nov 2008, 14:50 pm
#473 WP Till I Die: Put money on that
17 Nov 2008, 14:51 pm
#477 asha1: Who’s blah blah ?
Hahaha
17 Nov 2008, 14:53 pm
#475 4man: Rugby Laws are wasted on you and Pietman. If Habana can run down a player, get to his feet and effect a turnover why the heck can a loose forward. Wake up you two.
17 Nov 2008, 14:53 pm
#477 asha1: Dont be so naive.
17 Nov 2008, 14:54 pm
#435 Virus:
How the peeps of the FS today ?
Oh, it was’nt the coachs game plan that got played against Aus at Eliis Park. That much was admitted by snor himself
17 Nov 2008, 14:55 pm
#480 RugbyRulz:
We talking rucks, not break downs.
And I am not going to wake-up, I am about to go to bed as a matter of fact!
Cheers.
17 Nov 2008, 14:55 pm
#474 RugbyRulz: But Bryan has been playing shite. Whenever he got the ball he knocked it on. I’d rather play somebody like Jongi at least he can catch1
17 Nov 2008, 14:55 pm
#473 WP Till I Die: For me there is 1 main variable since the RWC 2007, and that is the coaching team. Most of the new players that came in (Beast, Bekker and even Jacobs) are an asset to the team.
Secondly, if the fault is with the senior players, then why does PdV just don’t get rid of them and get new players in?
17 Nov 2008, 14:57 pm
#483 Pietman: Sleep well now that you’re out of the bin
By the way what is a bobbejane?
17 Nov 2008, 14:57 pm
#473 WP Till I Die:
You are accurate.It happens everytime after the boks have played.Credit is never given to PdV.He once said once players understand his game plan,most teams are going to get a hiding.And we saw what happened to Aus when his game plan came right.Keo’s writers are too biased.They still want their former Afrikanner Blue Bulls coach – Meyer to coach SA,until then,they won stop talking kak about PdV…
17 Nov 2008, 14:57 pm
#474 RugbyRulz:
They would have to catch Nokwe first, not easy ask the Aussies, hehehehe!
17 Nov 2008, 14:57 pm
The Boks are one of the top 2 teams in the world and the current world champions.
Currently we are achieving the following:
Losing the scrum battle.
Losing the break down battle.
Losing the posession count.
Losing the territory count.
Rugby logic says that we cannot continue to win and improve unless we turn these 4 areas around.
So, is there something wrong, or is everything okay?
17 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm
#486 RugbyRulz:
Bobbejane?
Aussies, i think, not sure….
17 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm
#484 SpringbokSarah: He is a lovely finisher I agree but I think Nokwe is a better choice or put Fourie on. Fourie is a good defender and you can’t say that for Jongi. Finisher yes defender no.
17 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm
#485 LondonBul: Get rid of the senior players. Snor might as well resign immediately if he drops the senior players…they are his saving grace at this moment!
17 Nov 2008, 14:59 pm
#490 Pietman: Whole beat-up over it yesterday just wondered what is was.
17 Nov 2008, 14:59 pm
#487 Virus:
Nah, keo.co.za initially supported Peter de Villiers. They just love to criticise Peter de Villiers because it gets hits on their site. It’s very simple, keo.co.za have always been supportive of a new coach during the honeymoon period, then they pull their knives out – you should have seen how this site called for White’s head back in 2006 and 2007…
17 Nov 2008, 14:59 pm
#486 RugbyRulz:
Apes, *******, gorillas.
17 Nov 2008, 15:00 pm
#489 tight head: Oorverdowende applause !!
….en die mense gaan mallllllllllll !!
17 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm
#495 Dawn: Thanks dawnie… Now I understand the brou ha ha. Buggas deserved being binned.
17 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm
#489 tight head:
That Aus / England scrum. That one scrum. I can watch over and over …. and over again.
17 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm
#473 WP Till I Die:
exactly
17 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm
#496 grootblousmile: spelling?
17 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm
#480 RugbyRulz: Why would teh ABs need to chaneg their mind set look at stats. Usually when we play them we have less than 40% posession and they nail us most times. WE had a very lucky break in Dunedin. I thought that you would owrk it out but let me put it in simpler terms without the ball you cannot play attacking rugby. If you have played as I assuem you have how many times did you win a game where youy tackled for 60 minutes going backwards and only had the ball for the other 20.
We need to changs this mind set if you donlt control the game you donlt control the ball, if you dontlcontrol the ball you cannot play rugby. You can tackle and that is about it. The Aussies are masters at that even more than the ABs. We lag way behind as when we have the ball we throw it away one way or the other.
What did Mallett our most sucessful coach teach? Keep the ball and go forward that way the opposition is more likely to make mistakes or give away penalties. Poms did it the aussies in WC final, now Aussies have done it to the poms. Rugby is a pretty simpel game: so long as you go forward you are getting closer to where you want to be – the try line! No rocket science here.
17 Nov 2008, 15:02 pm
#497 RugbyRulz:
It’s a favourites derogatory term for blacks / coloureds here amongst the white supremacists. As evidenced in the character thread.
17 Nov 2008, 15:02 pm
#489 tight head:
You forgot winning two NH matches….
17 Nov 2008, 15:05 pm
WOW! I’ve only just managed to read throught the whole thread. All I can say is, it seems as though domestic abuse statistics in South Africa must have skyrocketed over the weekend, judging by the negativity and doom and gloom being exhibited here. Shame, just think how many dogs got bliksemmed too!
17 Nov 2008, 15:06 pm
# Objective 101: I was being cynical
The AB;s and Wallas don’t necessarily have the take that we need ascendancy in possession to win. Against some it is better to give them the ball and let them bring themselves undone. England did it beautifully. 
All Blacks do it to teams as well. You play what is infront of you and if the team aint playing smart… give em the ball.
17 Nov 2008, 15:06 pm
#500 Mannetjie: Kyk Mannetjie, moenie met my spelling kom sukkel nie !!
Hehehe
17 Nov 2008, 15:07 pm
#502 Dawn: AAH please – your guilty of stereotyping – no place for these type of political type comments. Leave race out of it PLSE!
17 Nov 2008, 15:07 pm
#502 Dawn: Time will wise them up dawnie or one would hope
17 Nov 2008, 15:08 pm
#507 Mannetjie: It ain’t rocket science to work our 1 + 1 = 2. Dawnie was bringing me up to speed with the varied Culturalists.
17 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm
Skipper recons the problem starts with Hoskins – he was instrumental in appointing poor old PdV. I suspect his career will be ruined because he was pushed too fast – he does have potential but may lose confidence because of the current sub-standard of play by the Boks. I believe he is not coping with many aspects of the system ie the boring old regulars: game plan and team selection.
Bryan Habana must be carrying an injury! He is not as sleg as he played on Saturday!! He needs a long rest off from the game to recover his confidence. Why is he being pressed into games which are compounding his problems? The front row selection for the tour was at best mysterious. I believe it shows no respect for the NH teams that we are playing.
In closing if you feel nervous about the result on Saturday, (remember how we hammered the English in the first game of the RWC last year) then surely you must feel that the administration of the Boks, especially the coaches, are in trouble.
17 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm
#507 Mannetjie:
Listen.
You didn’t read that thread. I did. Every word.
So shut it.
17 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm
#508 RugbyRulz: Who are “them”?
17 Nov 2008, 15:10 pm
#504 WP Till I Die: Yes horrible thought. I don’t know how many times I have said, ” You and your dog ”
17 Nov 2008, 15:10 pm
#502 Dawn:
Character thread?
17 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm
#509 RugbyRulz: NO, she gave you the neaning of an afrikaans word and added her subjective political meaning too.
17 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm
#512 Mannetjie: Not going there mate. I asked the meaning of an Afrikaans word so that I could completely understand the context of an issue. Dawnie clarified it and it has now been put to bed.
Let sleeping dogs lie. Please decorum.
17 Nov 2008, 15:12 pm
#466 RugbyRulz: They do and they have more than 50% of possession check the stats even when they lose against us.
Rugby is a simple game to win you need to have the ball, when you have the ball you need to go forward so you can get closer to where you want to be: the try line. No ball = no going forward = try line is far away! That is very very very simple.
We won by fluke in Dunedin. If PdV wants to rebuild his team he should do what JW did, tell his superiors he will loose but the aim is to win the WC. At this stage we go from hand to mouth. Forget about structure let’s talk about a long term plan which so far I cannot see, cause we have none.
If senior players don’t want to toe the line chuck them out or else keep quiet. More of the same will mean less spectators. At this stage I haev very little faith in our lot not because teh coach is kak or teh players ar not doing what they are being told but simply because we have no plan and no strategy. Who is the technical analyst? He needs his butt kicked cause he is feeding our lot a pile of garbage.
17 Nov 2008, 15:12 pm
So much pessimism and cynicism on here – it seems like this thread is a reunion of Alcoholics Anonymous – those that dropped out of the program, that is.
Come on, people, cheer up! At least the sky hasn’t fallen on our heads yet…
17 Nov 2008, 15:12 pm
This is a protea team…. the springbokis on ice until pietertjie has gone to hell.
17 Nov 2008, 15:12 pm
#514 WP Till I Die:
“Peter plays the Character Card” – over 1500 posts, over the weekend.
17 Nov 2008, 15:14 pm
#519 docpjv: get lost
17 Nov 2008, 15:15 pm
Same old story here today. We start out discussing a valid rugby issue and before long the usual suspects arrive and highjack the site to drive home the racial issues !!
Eish !!!
17 Nov 2008, 15:15 pm
And there I was so happy last night watching my man Chris Gayle batting.
Cool calm laid back iree as they come.
17 Nov 2008, 15:16 pm
#517 Objective 101: I concur, lay out his plan and give him the latitude to implement. Support him for the duration and extend his contract should he show promise. But! boot his ar$e and his back-up team from here to Timbuktu if they deserve it.
17 Nov 2008, 15:16 pm
#518 WP Till I Die: #518 WP Till I Die:
Hope that you can still say this on Saturday evening!
17 Nov 2008, 15:19 pm
#525 Skipper:
We’ll beat England by 20 points.
17 Nov 2008, 15:19 pm
Correction 1: Only 3 bloggers used the word “bobbejane”…. “werfbobbejane” to be exact….. and none of the 3 are white bloggers.
Correction 2: Those same 3 bloggers continued to abuse my wife in the foulest way possible.
Correction 3: The posts which referred to THAT abuse was removed by Roy.
Correction 4: Pietman was entised into swearing back, which led to a ban for him, Tulsa… and saru1983 as I recall.
17 Nov 2008, 15:19 pm
#522 Zulushark:
That’s how it will always be!
The stuff on that thread beggars belief! I don’t know if the guilty bloggers were pissed or what but Roy was dishing out 24 hour bans!
The level of hatred was unbelievable.
17 Nov 2008, 15:21 pm
#508 RugbyRulz: just a reminder that Dawn was the one with a problem with Habana having a white girlfriend………everyone has a problem with something that is why we should just all leave race and politics out of it….
17 Nov 2008, 15:22 pm
hey drukes. Here is DEVILS ADVOCATE: A CASE FOR THE COACHES.
I did not have the chance to watch the whole game on Saturday, and is only watching it now. In the wake of the loss, errr win, and after all the dust is
settled it is nice to check out just what the hell happened.
For me the pre-match situation kind of summarized it all. On the TV you had the team sheets, and whether some Bok players are on form or not doesn’t matter, on paper we should still have walked them. Yet when the teams where on the field, it was the Scots, with Flower of Scotland blaring around Murryfield that made me feel a little uneasy already.
The first ten minutes saw the Boks score 3 tries that never happened.
-Habana gives a massive knock-on after a successful turn over by the Boks.
-The Boks give away a penalty in a good position after regaining the ball from kick-off.
-SA kisses away another good chance after another turnover with a forward pass from J.Div to AD.
-SA ***** it up when J Smit just kind of drops the ball forward when the Boks are on a good roll.
-Spies has to scrap and ultimately looses the ball, again when SA is in a very good go forward situation.
-And on the stroke of ten minutes SA gives away another penalty for going off their feet. Again when in a great go forward position and with numbers to spare.
So, that is SA on attack, and good attack mind you, in ten minutes, and it is SA that pisses it away 6 times, 6 BLOODY TIMES, in exactly 10 minutes of play.
SA kept on attacking and again successfully broke the Scottish line down, getting behind the opp. with not so many mishaps as in the first ten. Then, when we found ourselves in the best position either team had been, after another excellent barrage of attacks, the Boks give away a free kick on the Scottish line, tossing away an attacking scrum, by…stepping across. Before the Scots even crouched.
In the first 20 minutes, the most dangerous Sct. attack came from a ball they stole, it it was done so by the tackler, who must roll away, and he did it lying in the ground, right in front of the ref.
In minutes 30-32, SA is once again on attack and burns a path of devastation to the try-line. SA wins another scrum. Feed ball, comes out, out to JP cutting in, bumps of the tackler 2m from the line, Burger off his feet, penalty Scots.
The Scottish try in the 38th minute was not worrying at all, to be honest, except for the fact that it was by the Scots.
And maybe that is just it. We played Scotland. In general play, we did dominate them. In terms of clean breaks, steels, backline runs, lineouts and so on, SA WAS better in the first half. And it is the half that matters, cause this is where we lost it to the Scots.
Here and many other places the coaches will be criticized, and maybe rightly so. In a test you need to buckle done in the first ten to 15 minutes to settle the nerves and get the feel of the ball. Hell, in all rugby it works that way, and so maybe the coaches instructions could have been different from kick-off.
But then again, it was not PdV that back chatted to the ref, costing SA 10 after he went of his feet for the unteenth time. It was not Gary Gold that stepped across in a perfect position and it was not **** Muir who through a forward pass and knocked the ball on.
These things, basics, should be focused on by the coaches for sure, but how basic do you want to go when you are coaching a Bok team? DO NOT GO OFF YOUR FEET! YES COACH.
I think, it is a big combination of factors. The fact that we played Scotland made the coaches and the players a bit more lack in their mind set. Almost ten months of grueling play for many of the Boks on Saturday. No focus along with not giving the opp the proper respect, I believe, is what almost cost the Boks this one. And it was a half time break where players and coaches probably took a deep breath and realised just what was unveiling.
I do not blame PdV, the game plan (and Keo, in the first 40 I could see a gameplan), his support, or the players. This came down to a complete team effort, and a complete team fook-up. Almost. I just hope that in the wake of this shocker SA pulls it together one last time to bleed the Poms.
And I believe they will.
(FtR, I am not a Helium Snor fan, but you cannot pack this one on him alone.)
17 Nov 2008, 15:23 pm
#529 EEE: Now THATs interesting. Double standards.
17 Nov 2008, 15:24 pm
#527 grootblousmile: and by the way I have never heard coulored people being referred to as bobbejane, even waaaaaaaay back in the 80′s……from where I come from the afrikaners and the coloureds are a lot alike and rather kindred spirits……
it is unforgivable for anyone to start calling anyones wives names, it makes one want to stop blogging
17 Nov 2008, 15:24 pm
#529 EEE:
Doesn’t sound like Dawn – for one thing, she’s madly in love with Ig!
17 Nov 2008, 15:25 pm
#529 EEE:
I don’t have a problem! I was taking the piss.
Cos he is out of form.
17 Nov 2008, 15:26 pm
#526 WP Till I Die:
I also think that we will take it. Our guys are stung by the results of the tour so far and definitely have the potential to annihilate England, but ….
17 Nov 2008, 15:26 pm
#528 Dawn: The mind boggles, just makes one realise all this rainbow nation bull is just bull!!!! We will never learn to work towards peace for all if people keep the hatred going……..
#531 Mannetjie: was not said to antagonize anyone, was just said to keep things fair……….
17 Nov 2008, 15:28 pm
#528 Dawn: Too true and I couldn’t even read the Afrikaan bits. They must have been red hot.
So much for sleeping dogs…. How you doing Grootie old boy?
You were in the thick of it.
17 Nov 2008, 15:29 pm
#534 Dawn: Bit like Tiger Woods eh dawnie… He was playing like $hit for a while… amazing how getting married settles them down.
17 Nov 2008, 15:29 pm
#534 Dawn: I know Dawnie…….was also just trying to keep thins fair and on aa lighter side…….”peopols” are very highly strung here in these last few days!!!!!
17 Nov 2008, 15:31 pm
#533 WP Till I Die:
#538 RugbyRulz: But then it first messes with their “brains” hehehehe
17 Nov 2008, 15:31 pm
#528 Dawn:
It never ceases to amaze me that there are such wide ranging political views here, I mean real extreme at times..
I think there are probabaly a lot of frustrated cowards out there that will hide on the blog and spew forth what they would’nt dare utter in public.
This is a rugby blog site…lets keep it that way, no politics and race issue
17 Nov 2008, 15:32 pm
#537 RugbyRulz: Yeah…. I was…. it was alleged that Pietman is the Grand Wizard of the ku klux clan, that both me and OCO and poor Puma were clan members….. for that alone I would not expect anybody to stand by idly..
Then my wife was brought into the picture….. I’m not even going to repeat what was said, save to say that I offered to personally take them out of this life…
Then Pietman was called Vuilpiet (Dirty Piet)….. do you think anybody will stand for that ??
17 Nov 2008, 15:34 pm
#541 Zulushark:
Zulushark, it’s all about the absolute anonymity that a blog brings. You’ll find there’s a lot of cowards that will hide behind the fact that they are anonymous on here to really, really utter some filth.
It comes with the territory, I guess. In one way I’m no longer anonymous on here, since I know quite a few of the bloggers on here in real life.
17 Nov 2008, 15:35 pm
#542 grootblousmile: Yes I did see that, I also remember someone saying they were superior blah blah blah… Could be that is what really fired things off.
17 Nov 2008, 15:36 pm
#542 grootblousmile: Being aussie does not make me one of the 3 bobbejanes …. wise *******… see no evil, hear no evil nor speak no evil… Im as human as the next guy and by all accounts you all gave as much as you got. IMHO you ALL should have been given a 24 hour punt to cool your heels. Where there is smoke there is fire.
17 Nov 2008, 15:37 pm
#541 Zulushark:
#542 grootblousmile:
THis absolute ****!!!!!!! definitely not to be here, this is a rugby site and not a day goes by without friggen racist remarks et al…..enough, lets talk Rugby…
I think we might see the bok team slaughter the Poms, just like we did to the Aussies at Ellis Park after playing pathetic rugby in the tri-nations
17 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm
#544 RugbyRulz:
thank god i didnt go onto that thread
..
been eyeing it the whole morning, decided to stay on the threads that just came in.
17 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm
I dig that bruised and bloodied Scots captain. To the max!
17 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm
#546 EEE:
Soos ek sê, 20 punte…
17 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm
#546 EEE:
agree on all counts!
17 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm
#420 asha1: Ouch!!!
17 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm
#544 RugbyRulz: It was alleged that Pietman and myself thought we (our group) were in some form superior.
Let me state categorically that we’re not !
But against those 3 personaly, nothing to do with a particular grouping, I do consider myself far above their standards in life.
17 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm
Okay all lets play nicely and move on… don’t need anymore said.
17 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm
546 eee: hope so,would be great to win big at twickenham for the boks..we haven’t managed a good win there in a while..won’t be easy
17 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm
#543 WP Till I Die:
I have always, and will always enjoy the wide range of rugby views here and the heated debates around teams, coaches, players and dare I say, game plans. We can’t live in isolation here but what is right is right and what is wrong is..well wrong.
It’s not often we can sit and debate rugby matter to the core like often happens. It brings persepective to the game we all love….but some okes are here purely for the racial issues, to smuts another’s colour and so on. Cowardly is the preferred word.
So, enough philosophy, any news on who is coming home and who is being sent
17 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm
#441 stodders: That is still a dangerous group..
17 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm
Good afternoon people. And how are we feeling after the weekend of rugby?
17 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm
#547 asha1:
When you see 1700 posts, you know there’s something going down.
And bet your bottom dollar, you’ll find it.
17 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm
#548 Dawn: What about the Italian # 8…. man to die for. Whoa is he hot.
17 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm
England fancy themselves to take us out on Saturday.
17 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm
#555 Zulushark: Check the new thread.
17 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm
#552 grootblousmile:
There you go again.
Everyone else has stopped already.
17 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm
#546 EEE:
I tend to agree. I think our boys will be strung by the critism of the last few weeks and will have a bit of mongrel about them.
I’m still keen to see JS at tighhead to start with,
17 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm
#549 WP Till I Die: stem broer, ek stem….
Ja die Bokke het swak gespeel maar lets face it, a win is a win…..ten minste het hulle terugbaklei na halftyd…..imagine hulle het net aanhou verlep? Sacrilege!!!
17 Nov 2008, 15:43 pm
#558 Dawn:
Or Trompie is being discussed.
17 Nov 2008, 15:43 pm
#32 PissAnt: #84 PissAnt: #86 bokdownunder: #58 Boerboel:
Now we are singing from the correct hymn sheet, if this had happened awhile ago instead of molly coddling these little next to God’s angels for fear of disrupting morale or some such bullsh’t this team would have gelled a whole long time ago already.
17 Nov 2008, 15:43 pm
#559 RugbyRulz:
Yes. There was lots to salivate over during the Arg/Italy game.
17 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm
Who remembers andre snyman’s try in 1997..would be awesome to have some memorable tries like that on sat
17 Nov 2008, 15:45 pm
#567 Dawn: Uhm please control yourselves woman.
17 Nov 2008, 15:47 pm
#489 tight head: I’d put you at number 3 at the mo. The Wallabies are on the upward curve. Their scrum took England’s apart at the weekend, and they beat you once in SA and once at home to take this years series.
In saying that though, you are still no. 2 on the rankings, so in fairness, you are still one of the top 2 teams in the world.
17 Nov 2008, 15:47 pm
#562 Dawn: I answered a question Dawn… I’ve stopped… happy ??
17 Nov 2008, 15:47 pm
#567 Dawn:
mooi was nog nooit lelik nie!!!!!
17 Nov 2008, 15:47 pm
#518 WP Till I Die:
shorter memories you will not find amongst rugby supporters anywhere on the planet, win against England next week and the very same party poopers will swing around 180 degrees, they have forgotten how we got hammered by Ireland France and England in the last 4 years of travelling to NH
17 Nov 2008, 15:47 pm
#567 Dawn:
Food ? are we talking food now. My third most favourite subject !!!
17 Nov 2008, 15:49 pm
#503 Virus:
So is everything okay then?
No problems with the Boks and nothing to be concerned about?
Are you happy that we are doing well given the points I have raised?
Are scrums, breakdown, posession and territory not that important to your rugby brain?
17 Nov 2008, 15:50 pm
#574 Zulushark: 8-|
17 Nov 2008, 15:50 pm
#560 Tbozknows: Of course they do. They are at home and they will have seen the Boks scrape a win against Scotland in their last match.
England themselves know how difficult it is sometimes to win at Murrayfield, especially if you get your mental approach wrong. However, there is plenty of video evidence for them to analyse to formulate the tactics to blunt the Boks. My guess is that they will look to take you on up front in the same way that the Scots did.
I’ll pick the Boks to win a tight one though, but only if they can maintain their discipline for 80 mins.
17 Nov 2008, 15:51 pm
#570 stodders:
THAT scrum. What a scrum that was.
17 Nov 2008, 15:52 pm
#574 Zulushark:
Food? Anytime!
17 Nov 2008, 15:53 pm
#573 umkonto: The balance in the Bokke team is still wrong….. Tight Head is a massive problem, the balance of our loosies is somehow wrong….. need a fetcher at 6, a grafter at blindside (maybe move Scalla to 7) and a solid No 8 (maybe move Juan there).
In addition we missed Fourie du Preez’s at No 9, Ruan was relatively quiet…. and Habana was waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy off the mark as he has been for a while now.
I’m disgusted and not convinced by Gary Gold (Glitter) as forwards coach….
17 Nov 2008, 15:53 pm
#570 stodders:
Hi Stodders.
I do not disagree with your assesment.
As you know the ranking was not the main point of my post, it was just some context to the point I was trying to put across.
17 Nov 2008, 15:53 pm
#577 stodders:
Is Martin Johnson the coach of England now. Is there a difference in that union between a manager and a coach or are they one and the same?
17 Nov 2008, 15:54 pm
#579 Dawn:
I have a awesome rack of lamb recipe . I will post it shortly as long as I don’t crapped on for talking food and not rugby….well, anything is better than politics
17 Nov 2008, 15:55 pm
#577 stodders: Bok locks will take England apart.
17 Nov 2008, 15:55 pm
#580 grootblousmile:
En wat weet jy?
Ha Ha !!
17 Nov 2008, 15:56 pm
#583 Zulushark:
Jy maak my lus.
Any lamb is good lamb.
17 Nov 2008, 15:56 pm
#583 Zulushark: I’m still galla-ing for Crayfish….. since Friday late afternoon….
So fire away with your lamb recipy !
17 Nov 2008, 15:57 pm
#583 Zulushark:
What gets my goat when we go to Firemans is that no-one ever wants to eat.
17 Nov 2008, 16:00 pm
#585 tight head: Nee jong…. ek weet wat ek weet…. maar indien ek uit eie oortuiging sou sê dat ek nie veel dink van ons hoofafrigter nie word ek sommer gebrandmerk….. dit terwyl ek net daai 4 goed wil sien waarvan jy praat waaraan die voorries MOET voldoen !
17 Nov 2008, 16:00 pm
#524 RugbyRulz: Then why don’t they do it? Lack of balls as usual and vecause there all sorts of other agendas behind the scenes. I am starting to feel like Puke Watson.
17 Nov 2008, 16:02 pm
#580 grootblousmile:
agree about tight head, I would drop Burger, play Broussouw, Smith and Spies, maybe switch Smith to 8 Spies to 7, Burger bench, and either have extra loose forward in Kankowski on bench with Roussouw or drop Kankowski.
17 Nov 2008, 16:04 pm
#589 grootblousmile:
Yes my friend.
It is all simple.
The truth is very painfull for some people!!
17 Nov 2008, 16:05 pm
#587 grootblousmile:
Ingredients :
Rack of lamb to feed 4, keep the fat on
3 x peel potatoes quatered
1 x diced onion
5 x diced carrots
2 x crushed galric cloves (or more)
1 x sprig fresh rosemary
1 x tin canolleni beans (drained)
2 x cups peas
Fry onions and garlic in olive oil. Add salt and pepper and finely chopped rosemary.
Add 2 cups boiling water before onions are cooked.
Place rack of lamb in roasting tray in oveer at 180
Par boil potatoes for 10 mins in salted water
Poach onions for 5 mins then add beans, boil for a further 10 min
Add carrots and a further 2 cups water. Simmer for 30 min.
Add potatoes to roasting tray.
Turn down the carrot nix to a low heat and add peas
45 mins later remove the rack and potatoes, drain the carrot mix into the roasting tray together with the fat drippings.
place over heat and thicken up. Pour back into the carrot and pea mix and add a dolip of butter.
Tuck in
17 Nov 2008, 16:06 pm
#588 Dawn:
I suppose they just want to dop
17 Nov 2008, 16:07 pm
The Scottish coaching staff were gutted.
I think I might have something to do with Juan Smith’s M-o-M interview afterwards.
No big sign of relief, just saying constantly “credit to the Scottish”; almost to say “we always knew we would get there, just took us a bit harder than expected”
I think that is the essence of the hurt in the Scottish camp
17 Nov 2008, 16:08 pm
Deysel at 7 is a better long term investment than Smith or Burger, though it would take a brave coach to make that switch, also a true No.8 like Alberts or Vermuelen to take up the back row position.
17 Nov 2008, 16:08 pm
#551 pedspin:
17 Nov 2008, 16:09 pm
#591 umkonto: Spies is not firing on all cylinders, has crappy hands and poor ball retention.
I’ve always maintained that Schalla is a blindsider rather than a openside flank / fetcher.
So I’ll drop Spies at this stage, till he’s fully on form….
We need to have more quality possession… and for that to happen we need to control more ground ball, we need to scrum better, we need to play outside our half…and the forwards in general needs to do their primary jobs better….
Then also our backs are kicking away too much ball which could have been used for attack / counter attack.
17 Nov 2008, 16:09 pm
#552 grootblousmile:
… opblaasswembad en al
17 Nov 2008, 16:10 pm
#548 Dawn:
.. sigh …
and so you keep on breaking my heart!
17 Nov 2008, 16:11 pm
To perform at the highest level certain combinations must come off.
6,7 and 8 altho big stars in their own right should play as a unit. Let the backs run off them and things will change dramatically.
I thought Juan’s work rate was superb!
17 Nov 2008, 16:12 pm
#593 Zulushark: Mmmmmmmmmmmm njammie….. I have a problem though…… that sounds about the size I would eat right now….. not a serving for 4 !
17 Nov 2008, 16:13 pm
#580 GBS TONIC
Jy ken jou rugby. Brussouw op 6, Schalk 7 en Jaun 8. Spies of Kanko op bank.
Sonder Brussow sal die treurmale met die loosies net voortgaan. Hierdie “seniors” is lankal sy “juniors”. Ervaring is ‘n relatiewe begrip – kry dan vir Frik, mof, Teuns, Gerber ens as ervaring tel.
17 Nov 2008, 16:14 pm
#599 asha1: Netso ja…. as hulle verder gesukkel het hulle dalk ‘n opblaasswembad-verwyderings-operasie nodig gehad !
17 Nov 2008, 16:14 pm
I think if one thing was shown it was that we need a dedicated fetcher. I said a week or two ago I’d play the following combination:
6. Heinrich Brussow
7. Juan Smith
8. Schalk Burger
17 Nov 2008, 16:16 pm
#598 grootblousmile:
Howdt pardner,
Wouldn’t drop Spies for the England match. We need his bulk. Kanko could come on when the game gets lose.
Would put JdV at #14 (he spent most of the afternoon there anyway) and put FS and JF at centre to improve the mid field strength.
Mujait to carry the bags to improve his strength for the next year or so.
17 Nov 2008, 16:17 pm
Once again i shout from the tree tops..how can thousands of supporters see that we need a fetcher but the bok management can’t!game after game we get nailed at breakdown and there is no change..why why why
17 Nov 2008, 16:17 pm
#605 WP Till I Die:
No 8 needs to be able to use his feet. Schalk has as much foot control as a 1 year old with his shoe laces tied together. He’s been tried there and was an absolute failure.
17 Nov 2008, 16:18 pm
#594 Zulushark:
Yep … that they do.
That food looks lekker.
17 Nov 2008, 16:19 pm
#603 AP: Hel….. ek het mos lekwarrrrrr flank gespeel in my dag des lewens tot ouderdom 26….. so ek ken bietjie van daai dinge jong !
Netso sal ‘n ou soos Tight head of Boerboel ons mooooooooi kan vertel van stutte se spel en wat nodig is…..
Loosies is ‘n kombinasie jong, nie enkelinge nie, hulle moet as kombinasie party toe kom, elk met sy spesialiteite !
Ek was woes beindruk met Juan… en dit wat hy uitstekend gedoen het pas so reg in ‘n goeie No 8 se kraal !
17 Nov 2008, 16:20 pm
#608 OCO: Yip, yip, yip !
17 Nov 2008, 16:22 pm
# Sheriff:
Yup Juan was great and so too was Schalk who (apart from diving over the rucks) got around the field well. Problem is that there was no co-ordination (linking) between the two.
17 Nov 2008, 16:23 pm
#606 OCO: Are you still alive…. Osama Bin OCO ??
17 Nov 2008, 16:23 pm
#611 grootblousmile:
Not gonna happen though but let’s face it, the combo did better in the RWC and scored more tries.
We can only dream!
17 Nov 2008, 16:25 pm
#612 OCO:
Yeah but Schalla must be smarter, he is impressive with ball in hand but fail to get players to link up with him.
It’s either he passes straight away or runs and dont pass. He needs to do both.
Still concerned about Pierre’s ball handling skills after all these chances. Seems to be a personal favourite of PdV’s
17 Nov 2008, 16:26 pm
#613 grootblousmile:
Only just, chasing sales right now. Not a good time in the current economy. Q8 stock exchange was closed late last week and only reopened today after government intervention.
Although you might be refering to last nights ‘head banging’ with the ‘comrades’ ?
17 Nov 2008, 16:29 pm
#615 Sheriff:
As I was saying to GBS, would be nice to put JdV on the wing (he plays well when wide) and FS/JF at centre (hell, Pdv has tried everything else).
However, yup, SB is a great player but he’s more of a ‘tank’ and hits anything in his way. I’m not sure that he has the skills necessary under the ELVs. Pity if he can’t come right as we need him. Would be a winner if he could offload better. Maybe with a ‘smarter player’ as a link it would go better?
17 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm
617 oco: having a good fetcher might help schalk also,as the fetcher will be there 2 support when burger makes his runs etc.now there are not any support runners often enough
17 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm
#616 OCO: Head banging ??
That was more like “yapp-trapping”….. hulle het ge-yapp en ons het getrap !
17 Nov 2008, 16:33 pm
#617 OCO:
PdV will not play Jean on the wing, never.
Jean is the type of player that he likes. My guess is that he will play Fourie at 11 on Sat and give Habs a rest/ play him from the bench.
17 Nov 2008, 16:35 pm
Life is about balance….. loosies are about balance….. we need loosies with balance to make our lives more balanced…
You get my drift ??
Hahahaha
17 Nov 2008, 16:36 pm
#619 grootblousmile:
hehe, yup. Only contribution from the 3 stooges was asking questions but refusing to answer those posed. Could have done with a judge to demand answers to the questions we posed.
Typical childish behaviour from them, like two year olds.
17 Nov 2008, 16:36 pm
#604 grootblousmile:
sou jy dit af- of opgedruk het?
17 Nov 2008, 16:37 pm
#621 grootblousmile:
i thought life was about structure?
17 Nov 2008, 16:37 pm
Who mentioned Ig!?
17 Nov 2008, 16:37 pm
#623 asha1: Ja !
Haha
17 Nov 2008, 16:38 pm
#626 grootblousmile:
ja wat?
17 Nov 2008, 16:38 pm
ANyone for tickets tickets to Twickenham on Saturday?
I have and can get some if you are keen? price £60-£71 pounds, lower east, around the 22m
17 Nov 2008, 16:39 pm
#624 asha1: Nooooo, life about belense…. I have to belence on my round feet after a bottle of Jerrekie-pik-my !
17 Nov 2008, 16:39 pm
#621 grootblousmile: Yes we need balance, also in the front row and the second row, etc… The team must be balanced, even the bank must be balanced (I mean the reserves, these days nobody can balance the banks!).
17 Nov 2008, 16:39 pm
Sit nou vir Spies terug op vleuel. ‘n Loosie wat sy kop intrek en oë toemaak onder in losskrum is bang man. Hy sal die ouens op vleuel nou stukkend hardloop – Lomu?
17 Nov 2008, 16:39 pm
#618 ruggalover:
More or less what I’m saying. SB needs someone to ‘tidy up’ behind him and keep the momentum going. Not sure if SPies can do this as he is slow off the mark. Maybe Kanko who is probably one of the fastest in the team but he doesn’t tackle as well as Spies – at least ‘stop them in their tracks.
Difficult decision.
17 Nov 2008, 16:40 pm
Actually the same applies to 11, 14 and 15.
Percy, Breyton and Slapgatjips still one of the most dangerous combinations in the recent past.
Habs, Connie and JP do not play as a unit.
17 Nov 2008, 16:40 pm
#628 JL1: Don’t tempt me
17 Nov 2008, 16:41 pm
#628 JL1:
Does that include air fare?
17 Nov 2008, 16:41 pm
#630 Boerboel: Sien ek het jou aangehaal as ‘n voorrykenner hierbo êrens !!
17 Nov 2008, 16:42 pm
#620 Sheriff:
JdV has been more effective on the wing than he’s ever been at centre. History shows us that. The combo of FS/JF at centre is the best SA has ever had – results show this.
But yeh, you’re right, PdV isn’t giving any opportunities to FS/JF to stake their place at centre. He won’t do it, come hell or high water.
17 Nov 2008, 16:43 pm
#636 grootblousmile:
en dit …
dit is die vaste vyf
..
iets soos daai?
17 Nov 2008, 16:43 pm
#627 asha1: Op en af !
17 Nov 2008, 16:44 pm
#633 Sheriff:
Jantjies is the problem. Run into the opposition or kick a Garry Owen. No variation, no joining the line like Percy or ST (or many other for that matter).
17 Nov 2008, 16:44 pm
#636 grootblousmile: Sien so.
17 Nov 2008, 16:44 pm
#639 grootblousmile:
geen sekspraatjies nie
..
hiers kinners oppie site!
17 Nov 2008, 16:45 pm
#635 Dawn: No air fare, and only for serious takers
Tickets to Twickenham
£60-£71 face value
lower east around the 22m
17 Nov 2008, 16:47 pm
Hey ek waai nou……… mense het gearriveer !
17 Nov 2008, 16:49 pm
#644 grootblousmile:
You just reckon ther’s a dop with your name on it in close vicinity. Come on admit it
17 Nov 2008, 16:51 pm
#637 OCO:
But you and I have had this discussion before.
And I think we disagreed then as well. For me Jean is also a 12 or 13 esp because of his vision. He could stretch himself by working on his kicking ability ie to be able to relieve pressure off 10.
Fourie was impressive when he came on and deserves to make the run on team.
17 Nov 2008, 16:52 pm
What that team needs is Doppies le Grange.
17 Nov 2008, 16:53 pm
Hello everyone!
My 2 cents for what they’re worth. We were kak. No doubt about that. We showed tactical naivety and played poorly. It’s not the first time in the last 5 years that we’ve done so against so called “minnows”. Scotland gave us very close frights twice under Jake Whites tenure and both of those were in SA.
Now I’m not defending De Villiers. I think he is out of his depth, but I agree with Pissant that you cannot simply coach the BASICS out of a player. Habana, Spies, Burger Botha and Smith have all been average this year. Dropping balls, getting isolated, missing tackles etc etc. A gameplan is all well and good and offers structure, but if you have players who are simply out of form or struggling with the basics eg. staying on your feet at ruck time, not isolating yourself, catching a ball and not being beaten on your outside when you are the “quickest” wing in world rugby, then you are not making life easy for yourself.
Gameplans are great in the changeroom, but at the end of the day you should be good enough and organised to play what you see on the field. Did anybody else notice how well Jaque Fourie marshalled the defence from the wing when he came on?
17 Nov 2008, 16:53 pm
#640 OCO:
He had one of his poorer games on Sat and certainly has not been a stand out player over the last while. But had a few solid games.
I agree. He needs to work on his ability to join the line and by doing so create the overlap.
17 Nov 2008, 16:54 pm
#647 Dawn:
Doppies kan gaan doppies blaas …
17 Nov 2008, 16:55 pm
#648 Vetkoek:
Great observation.
Fourie was awesome ; stayed on the outside and of course scored that superb try. And he had to work for it.
17 Nov 2008, 17:00 pm
#649 Sheriff:
Don’t know what’s up with Jantjies. A couple of times he’s intercpted kicks that JPP had covered. If he had stayed wide of JPP and waited for JPP to run and pass inside to hime then it would have had greater impact.
Think it was also Jantjies who had JPP on his outside in a race to the line on Saturday. If he had offloaded to JPP it was pretty much a given try (there was no-one in front of JPP). He chose to run straight into a brick wall.
Not sure he likes JPP in the squad with him, just get that feeling.
17 Nov 2008, 17:03 pm
#652 OCO:
Also think that he offers very little other than his kicks. There are many better than he and Kirschner would be a better choice (mind you Kirschner also has the ability to give away too many penalties).
Not in the same class as ST (who has been brilliant all year and should have been there on merit well before any other SA FB) and Percy, who is still classy but slower.
17 Nov 2008, 17:06 pm
hierdie span was gelukig om the wereld beker te wen en speel nog steeds swak rugby!
tenmunste droom hulle van a beter ‘brand’ van rugby spel….
17 Nov 2008, 17:07 pm
#648 Vetkoek:
FS was marshalling the back line when he came on. Combo with JF is awesome. JF scored the almost exact try that JdV couldn’t.
However, if the game plan is catch the ball and run then you get what we got in the first half. It was PdV’s plan which he has tried from the outset – and has failed misserably each time.
It’s a team game but PdV is saying play as an individual. There is no synergy and thus we play badly. PdV is just too naive, not the players.
17 Nov 2008, 17:09 pm
#654 oogman:
This is not the team that won the RWC. It has been changed, along with the coach (in reality it’s the opposite, the new coach has changed a winning team). It’s really quite simple to see where the problem lies and doesn’t require CSI.
17 Nov 2008, 17:11 pm
#652 OCO:
Again, many people criticise PdV for a lot of things.
My criticism is the fact that he has not yet succeeded to unite the team. It’s better but every man wants to shine as an individual.
17 Nov 2008, 17:24 pm
#657 Sheriff:
I’m not sure what you mean by ‘it’s better’ as we have lost too many matches and scrapped through those which should have been a ‘no-contest’.
I don’t think PdV has a game plan that can win matches and I think his choice of players sucks in many areas.
But yes, I don’t think has united players and the inclussion of the other dude (:-) – not gonna bring that name up) has not helped. I think their are too many divisions in the camp. Not the first time in a Bok squad either.
17 Nov 2008, 17:29 pm
Is anyone else having trouble posting comments etc
17 Nov 2008, 17:31 pm
#658 OCO:
With “better” I meant, I think they a little tighter now than say a few months back during 3N.
17 Nov 2008, 17:34 pm
#659 ruggalover: Nope !
17 Nov 2008, 17:35 pm
647 dawn: i think doppies is already lucky that he has been preferred over walter venter at provincial level
17 Nov 2008, 17:37 pm
661 grootblousmile: shot
17 Nov 2008, 17:39 pm
Give Kanko a run..
17 Nov 2008, 17:41 pm
Can’t remember when last our centre’s have broken through defenses and scored from set play since fourie and jdv were playing together..they used to create tries all the time and space for the wings
17 Nov 2008, 17:45 pm
#665 ruggalover:
It will be interesting to get the following stats:
a. How many intercept tries scored under the prev coaching staff
b. What % of total tries scored it is ie
15 of 20 tries scored were intercept tries thus 75%
Maybe someone can look into this ; will be appreciated
17 Nov 2008, 17:50 pm
666 sheriff: man i don’t know where to get those kinda stats..would be interesting
17 Nov 2008, 17:51 pm
#666 Sheriff: evil post!
17 Nov 2008, 17:55 pm
Under jake we would pressure the opposition into making mistakes, but to be fair under PDV we have actually made plays with ball in hand..
17 Nov 2008, 17:55 pm
#668 pedspin:
The motive behind the request is however pure and holy
17 Nov 2008, 17:57 pm
666: maybe we can just get total intercept tries scored by jdv and habana and then get total tries scored under jake white
17 Nov 2008, 17:58 pm
#671 ruggalover:
Mate, there are some astute researchers here on keo.
A know WPTID is one such blogger. That request will appeal to certain type of mind, but it is merely interesting. Would not want it to become a burden to anyone.
17 Nov 2008, 18:01 pm
#665 ruggalover:
You fortget the RWC. FS and JF undisputed world champions.
JdV inercepts on the wing. Max one centre break per game and little to show for it.
Last years S14 shows that FS out performed in all aspects of the game other than JdV scored more intercepts – but FS can kick too.
JdV was outplayed at centre by both Wales and Scotland.
FS made a game saving try that JdV would never have made (as he never has before – in the 3N he missed exactly the tackle FS made).
No comparison.
17 Nov 2008, 18:19 pm
673 oco: just giving my opinion.i’m not forgetting the rwc,steyn played really well..but he only played there because of injuries otherwise the centre’s would have been jdv and fourie.think yr being harsh on jdv..he’s had probably the best s14 and rugby reason of his career.the jury still out on what steyn’s best position is..i personally feel he has had his best games at fullback and wing for boks where he has some space and time and has not had to distribute the ball to often
17 Nov 2008, 18:31 pm
#666 Sheriff: Are you thinking what I think.
17 Nov 2008, 18:33 pm
#673 OCO: I agree 100%. Can’t understand why the glory boy gets all the praise when he leaves his line a lot and puts the team under pressure.
17 Nov 2008, 21:26 pm
Wow!
What a headline!? I am flabbagasted by the tone of the article. Are we that bad as the Springbok team in 2008 or bet yet under Pieter de Villiers?
I would associate a shithouse with Kamp Staalrad! Not a team that won in New Zealand CONVINCINGLY for the first time recent memory.
The Springboks are playing the usual way they play when they are abroad or when playing away from home. The mindset is default defensive.
We didnt lose against Wales and Scotland! I can recall Nick Mallett losing and Rudolph Straule losing to these sides respectively.
Basically you are blaming the following people for the Boks ‘shittiness’.
- Pieter de Villiers
- Enrico January
- Brian Mujati
- Brian Habana
- Earl Rose
I dont know people whether the pattern is evident for everyone to see. I will let you decide. There is a concieted and concerted effort in this website to blame all of rugby’s ills to “‘You People’” and “‘Your Politicians’”.
The problem with Boks at the moment is with the senior players. They still want to play according to White’s (excuse the pun) wishes. The coach is for the expansive gameplan and the Seniors are conservative by nature. They then have a nerve to say that they went for the structured approach in order to secure the win.
They are undermining the Coach. Drop the lot.
Seriously a shithouse team does not beat Australia by a record margin.
17 Nov 2008, 22:02 pm
#266 cane: maybe we’ll meet in 2011 and you can try yourself
17 Nov 2008, 22:17 pm
#284 karamba: Jake’s not coming back
#441 stodders: I’ve told you already thats not how the World Cup groups are worked out.
17 Nov 2008, 22:44 pm
God even keo believes all the hype about the Boks having an “Aura” last year. The truth is last years team still came last in the tri nations and the last 4 years only had a winning ration of 30% against the blacks and consistently lost to a number of teams such as France and even Ireland away from home.
All credit to the Boks they peaked at the cup and beat a number of teams but I think it has seriously disillusioned a lot of Bok fans, they now think they should be spanking everyone because they one the world cup. When they lose or perform badly they all blame the coach but truthfully are some of the players that great, they come from a pool of teams that consistently make up the bottom half of the super 14 and haven’t exactly dominated the world of rugby over the past 5 years.
I think since SA came back in 92 they have churned through over 10 coaches my question is it always there fault
17 Nov 2008, 22:52 pm
#680 hawkes: put Gatland, Deans or Mallet in charge and do you think it would be the same?
17 Nov 2008, 23:34 pm
Yeah I admit those coaches could make a difference but I remember the bok fans giving grief to mallet not long after his golden run in 97/98 when he lost a few games. Surely you don’t buy into this Bok “aura” from last year. To me the England 02/03 WC wining team had an Aura as they were the dominant team in world rugby before winning the cup they won 12 consecutive games against the tri nations teams (this Bok team had nothing like that record before winning the 07 cup). I just think some of the bok fans think because they won the cup they should be pummeling everyone and look to blame the coach before looking at some of there players who are rather average
18 Nov 2008, 00:56 am
#682 hawkes: I don’t buy into an aura of any team what I do buy into is a team which is clicking and doing things better than other teams. SA beat every team in the world last season except France (who were beaten twice by Argentina) and NZ (when they had 5 players out and lost a 6th during the game).
The Bok team is full of top players who were used to playing a particular way and their strength has been ameliorated by new laws and a new gameplan.
This being the case the coach should either go back to a more suitable gameplan or be strong enough to drop all of them and pick different players.
Currently he is stuck in a halfway house and results are getting worse.
18 Nov 2008, 01:07 am
beat every team in the world last year except? except?, that was my point they havn’t been beating the Abs, they still lost to them twice in 07 and Aussies. Injuries or not you have to remember the blacks had Ross Filipo & Boric ( LOL) playing locks for that Durban game? There coach isnt great but if they sack him at the end of the year would things change?
18 Nov 2008, 01:27 am
#684 hawkes: they were beating the ABs pretty comfortably at home in ’07 with an understrength side missing Smit, Habana, Smith, Spies, Du Preez and lost James in-game. Thats a serious amount of quality to lose and the result was still tight.
They beat Australia too and sent their B side out to Aus. After that they went on a 13 game winning run including the World Cup.
Things would change if they had a world class quality coaching group. atm the current crew aren’t cutting it but who knows they may be 3 from 3 this weekend. You can’t argue with results.
18 Nov 2008, 01:33 am
Go the Boks, World Champs!! gona demolish england. Chokers going to choke against wales. CHOKERS CHOKERS CHOKERS!! HAHA
18 Nov 2008, 06:14 am
#685 Big Hit:
Full of balony bro. They were never comfortably beating the ABs in ’07. Please don’t stretch the truth like that. Furthermore, are you sure they’re B-side beat Aus in Aus?
18 Nov 2008, 06:25 am
#687 sinba556: they were leading 21-12 with 14 minutes to go with a team missing 6 starters. What do you call it?
I never said the B side beat Aus, I said they sent a B side but they did beat Aus in 07.
18 Nov 2008, 06:55 am
What a stupid article, the fact is that we are world champs and from now on it doesnt matter if we play the AB’s or Romania our opposition is going to play out of there skins to beat us. It happened to England and Australia before us, hell it even happened to us.
I thought the scott’s had a great game and if they played like that week in and week out, they would beat any side in the northern hemisphere easily.
As a nation we should be lifting our side up not knocking them down. Playing none stop ruggers since Feb has to take it’s toll, if you ask me we should do what the european teams do and thats sent a “B” team and call it developement a tour. Give the big boys a rest.
Now I know what Keo’s going to say “but its the same for Aus and NZ” actually its not. Aus dont have a currie cup so they do bugger all after the Tri-Nations and the AB’s Air New Zealand cup is no where near as physical as the currie not to mention nearly all the AB’s involved in the Tri-Nations are rested intelligently.
18 Nov 2008, 09:07 am
I feel that BH has lost his positional expertise, probably as someone has explained the rules to him, and he now stands in the Bokke back-line. I swear I have spotted him on-side several times this year.
18 Nov 2008, 09:10 am
A seven year old boy was at the centre of a courtroom drama today. The boy has a history of being beaten by his parents and the judge awarded custody to his aunt.
The boy however confirmed that his aunt beat him more than his parents and refused to live there. When the judge suggested that he live with his grandparents the boy cried out that they beat him more than anyone.
Then in an unprecedented move, the judge dramatically allowed the boy to choose who should have custody of him.
In a final ruling yesterday, custody was granted to England Rugby Club as the boy firmly believes that they are not capable of beating anyone.
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