731 Comments

• 1.grant10:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:34 am

  dragon

• 2.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:34 am

  eish!

• 3.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:36 am

  Sweef soos ‘n arend…

• 4.iori Yagami:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:37 am

  #2 rangerman: Met eish ja!

• 5.iori Yagami:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:37 am

  Overcooked Dragons.

• 6.iori Yagami:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:39 am

  The Boks and the All Blacks are two totally different teams. We cant compare what they are going to do on Saturday with us. If they break our record score then so be it….doesnt mean they are better.

• 7.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:39 am

  Yep, that 19-0 at Newlands was the killer.
  But I agree, the Boks are on the move.
  PdeV has done well, he will be a WC winning coach, watch.
  There is a new spirit in the team now.

• 8.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:40 am

  # grant10: Should be ” Should have whipped the All Blacks” Dragons……….
  Just watch the Boks in 2009. Look at the Keo poll. Most think our Lions will struggle on the tour against your Boks.

• 9.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:43 am

  i dont want to get into a pissing contest with anyone today so i will simply say that the boks progress is what concerns me at this stage.

  we have put on two massive puntings in the last three months and taken a disasterous 19-0 also.

  so yes keo, you are correct, we have stumbled. i believe we have the ability to fly though.

• 10.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:44 am

  #8 carol: We always pump up our Boks Carol. It never matters who we play against we always say Boks to win.

• 11.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:46 am

  #9 rangerman: Agree scots ranger. I just say lets be positive from now on. Have a good feeling for our team next year. As long as there are no injuries and please no injuries after the Lions tour as we need revenge against the All Blacks next year. We have the players and all have learned this year what works what does not so it will be a much better year next year. And we have a great 10 in the making that makes a huge difference aswell.

• 12.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:50 am

  #11 Puma: JUST ONE CHANCE!!!!!!!

  there are a whole bunch of scots in edinburgh who are still shaking their heads about the crazy saffa who partied with them into the wee hours, let me tell you.

• 13.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:51 am

  The All Blacks are going to dismantle England and throw them on the scrap heap……… I see a 60 pointer coming up Saturday !

• 14.Hier kom groot k..:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:51 am

  With Piet Helium settling down, Puke out of the way, a future flyhalf in Ruan, Habana showing glimpses of the past…

  The future looks good!

• 15.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:53 am

  I dare those with astute rugby knowledge to challenge me on the articles I am about to post, however, only after actually reading them in full.

  I understand the next 3 posts are long, and perhaps a bit convoluted at times, but I feel it is necessary to back up one’s opinions with statistics, reasoning and analysis, rather than merely stating outlandish comments.

  People say we should have won the Tri Nations at a canter, and use our lack of success in this tournament to pose questions of Peter de Villiers’s credentials, often in rather crude terms.

  I asked myself: “Why do these people think we should have won the Tri-Nations this year?” I pondered this for a second, and realised there were four reasons for this.

  - We won the World Cup.
  - Our current team is the most experienced (in terms of caps) ever.
  - Australia has a new coach and were poor in the WC.
  - New Zealand lost many players to overseas clubs.

  I’ve addressed all 4 aforementioned reasons, and came to the conclusion that perhaps our rugby journalists were much too optimistic, or perhaps just needing a reason to undermine Peter de Villiers.

  In my articles, I’ve addressed the issue of the game plan, and can state with absolute certainty that the majority of our rugby journalists have got it completely wrong.

  And finally, I can state with infallible certainty, that South Africa can be the dominant team in world rugby, if we can embrace change instead of continously criticizing it.

• 16.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:53 am

  We won the World Cup, so what?

  From January 2004 till August 2007, Jake White coached the Springboks to 26 victories from 44 games at a winning percentage of 59.09%, in the process propelling South Africa to 3rd in the IRB World Rankings. Thereafter, South Africa would go on to win there final 10 games under White, including the RWC final, to take the winning percentage to 66.67% and South Africa to number 1 in the IRB World Rankings.

  Let me just add that this is not a comparison between Jake White and Peter de Villiers – it is a summary of the Springbok’s record over a 4 year period (i.e. the gap between the 2003 and 2007 World Cups). It is just so happens that Jake White coached the Springboks for this entire period. Had there been 3 coaches in this time, I would have shown their combined records. Continuing…

  Of the last 10 games under Jake White, only 5 were against top eight opposition and none against the other top-seeded teams (New Zealand, Australia and hosts, France). Looking at each victory in isolation, there is little to suggest that South Africa were deserving of being ranked the best team in the world following their World Cup victory.

  The first victory was against Scotland in a WC warm game, which SA won 27 – 3. NZ would go on to beat this same Scottish side 41 – 3 with their ‘B’ side. The next victory was against an English side playing without a recognised flyhalf. As it were, they played a rugby league flanker (Andy Farrell) with a terrible left boot at 10. South Africa would then make heavy weather of beating Tonga and Fiji. The 37 – 20 victory against the latter was extremely flattering. Up until the 70th minute the score was 23 – 20, JP Pietersen had rescued what seemed a certain try and Fiji played with 14 men for 20 minutes.

  Meanwhile, New Zealand has pulverised all comers, racking up a perfect 20 points and achieving a points difference of 274 from 4 games. Australia too scored a perfect 20 points, but were a lot less emphatic, with a point different of 174. New Zealand would go on to lose to France in incredibly unlucky circumstances. Besides the clear forward pass in the Yannick Jauzion try, NZ also saw injuries to their star flyhalf (Dan Carter) and to their reserve flyhalf (Nick Evans). Also, suspect refereeing saw France concede just one, yes, one penalty, in the entire game. Australia, on the other hand, were absolutely hammered at scrum time and conspired to lose to an extremely average English side.

  The following weekend, South Africa played an Argentine side who had beaten France, Ireland and Scotland en route to the semi-final. South Africa won 37 – 13 in what was easily their best performance. In the other semi-final, England were extremely fortunate to score a try in the first minute, where the a cross kick bounced wickedly for Damien Traille and straight into the hands of Josh Lewsey who merely fell over the try line. France, despite dominating territory and possession, and playing in front of a partizan crowd, conspired to lose 9 – 14, with Wilkinson snapping over a drop in the dying minutes to put the game out of reach of a penalty.

  Then in the final, South Africa won by 5 penalties to 2. Also, England came within, literally, 1 inch of scoring a try which would have seen the score move to 9 – 8 and potentially 9 – 10. It is impossible to simply say that South Africa would have won anyway if England had scored this try, since by the Butterfly Effect, the entire game would have changed its course. However, South Africa held out to win the match and the trophy. This performance was enough to see South Africa move to No. 1 in the IRB rankings. On a brief overseas tour, South Africa whacked Wales 34 – 12 (officially ending Jake White’s tenure as coach with a record of 54-36-1-17) before losing to the Barbarians.

  During Jake White’s tenure, South Africa had a record of 9 from 22 (40.91%) against the other top-seeded nations in a 12/10 split home and away. Only once did South Africa score 4 tries or more. The best victories were 40 – 26 against New Zealand and 27 – 13 against France, and the worst losses were 0 – 49 against Australia and 33 – 6 against New Zealand, as well as 26 – 45 against New Zealand and 26 – 36 against France in South Africa. South Africa’s points difference over these 22 games was negative 94 (average of 4.3 points behind opponents).

  Would this type of record warrant number one status in any other sport? No. The fact is South Africa were at best the second strongest team in the world even after their World Cup victory. I am very proud of South Africa’s achievement, and do not dispute that they were the best team for the 6-week tournament, but like many things in life, they needed a bit of luck, nay, a lot of luck, to do it. However, I am making the point that without playing the top-seeded teams, the World Cup proved little in terms of us being the dominant team in world rugby.

• 17.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:53 am

  Should’ve could’ve didnt as the saying goes. fact is the ELV’s took us a while to get used to. The proof was in the pudding with our poor showing in super 14 rugby long before PDV/springbok season got into gear. Players like FDP were made to look ordinary while big vic has a 2 month french hangover from his vineyards finest.

• 18.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:54 am

  The other 3 reasons.

  There is a saying that there is no substitute for experience. However, it is also true that players who have achieved the greatest honour in the game have very little added incentive to continue at the same level.

  The two best players for South Africa this year have been Ad Jacobs and Jean De Villiers, both missing from the Rugby World Cup campaign. Coincidence? I think not. Having won the World Cup, many of the top players have experienced a slump in form, not because PdV has coached it out of them, as many writers would like to imply, but rather because these players do not have the same level of motivation and pressure for their place. I also believe most of these players were never that good anyway.

  Fourie Du Preez, in particular, is rather overrated. A great player, no doubt, but not nearly as positively influential as Augustin Pichot or George Gregan from 1994 to 2006. Far from being the number one scrumhalf in the world, he is not even the number one scrumhalf in South Africa on this year’s performances. Yes, he may have assisted three tries against England in the World Cup and scored an intercept against Argentina last year, but his overall game is extremely overrated. For instance, against New Zealand at Cape Town this year, I watched FdP kick out on the full outside the 22 three times. Also, when Francois Hougaard replaced FdP in the Super 14, suddenly the Bulls ran riot. Why? Because FdP puts up a box kick every second ruck, and under the ELV’s you need a level of flair. No wonder he stated after the first week that he disliked the new rules.

  Others I would add to the list are CJ van de Linde, Victor Matfield (against Tri Nations opposition), Schalk Burger, Juan Smith (this year only), Butch James and Bryan Habana. Schalk Burger has made about four steals this year, whilst a guy like George Smith made 5 pilfers for the Brumbies in the Stormers game alone. He has limited ball skills and seldom breaks tackles too. I would much rather have Richie McCaw (besides his fetching, tackling and leadership, think back to his left-footed grubber in the Cape Town game this year) and George Smith. In fact, personally I would play Heinrich Brussouw ahead of Burger, or else have Burger play somewhere else. Yes, he is a fantastic player, but his two Tri-Nations counterparts consistently out-perform him in the role of a fetcher and linking man.

  Bryan Habana is another. He is simply lightning fast, strong and has a good rugby brain. He has no step or hand off whatsoever, unlike a Christian Cullen for instance. He has always relied on intercepts, chip kicks and break aways for tries. I have seldom seen Habana beat a player one-on-one like a Jo Rockokoko, Shane Williams or even Lote Tuqiri of the current crop. He does not even come close to Cullen, Wilson or Campese. Again, great player, but not as good as we make him out to be.

  For these reasons, I believe it is absolutely wrong to insinuate that PdV is responsible for the poor form of so many ‘star’ players this year. It is also wrong to claim that there is a direct relationship between the number of caps in a squad and their performances on the field.

  With regards to Australia having a new coach – actually, this has been to theit benefit. Robbie Deans is one of the most tactically astute coaches of our time. You can’t put a price on 8 times Super 12/14 champion with the Crusaders. Remember, Dan Carter and Richie McCaw have only been around for the last 3 triumphs.

  And yes, New Zealand losing so many players did impact their performance. But not much. Their player depth is STILL greater than ours. The Super 14 results bear testimony to this. New Zealand had teams ranked 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th and 11th. We had teams ranked 4th, 5th, 10th, 13th and 14th. Enough said? I think so.

• 19.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:54 am

  Why PdV is right.

  Say for instance Raphael Nadal had won Wimbledon in 2007 (to those who don’t follow tennis, he lost 3 sets to 1 to Roger Federer in 2007). Say for instance, en route to the final, he did not play any one of Roger Federer (who let’s say bowed out to an injury), Novak Djokovic (who was perhaps beaten by an old veteran in the quarters) or Andy Roddick. So in the final, Nadal beats Lleyten Hewitt by 3 sets to 2 in a hard fought but not particularly skilled final.

  In the process, Nadal wins Wimbledon without having a good serve and with a very limited ability at the net, even though these are considered two of the most crucial aspects of grass court play. Naturally, Nadal should want to improve his game, even though he has already won Wimbledon, to ensure he can continue to dominate the men’s game. But instead, Nadal’s trainer says: “Screw this, you won Wimbledon, let’s not work on your game. Let’s stick to what works. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Sound familiar?

  In the same way, South Africa was a very limited side in 2007. They relied on stout defense (like Nadal, who used to just around like a hare returning most attacks) and intercepts or breakaways (again, like Nadal, who waited for his opponents to make mistakes) but had very little flair or attacking prowess of their own (Nadal, last year, could not win points at the net or ace an opponent). Roger

  So PdV was left with a choice like Nadal’s trainer would have been in the alternate reality I’ve presented. He could continue with Jake White’s method and be satisfied with a 41% record against our closest opponents, or try to teach our players to compete toe-to-toe with New Zealand. After all, South Africa has a much bigger player base – surely we can find 15 players with at least the equivalent talent but also the traditional physical prowess? All we needed to do, believed PdV, was to coach these players to think for themselves. To work outside a designated game plan, to see spaces and to capitalize on over laps.

  Now here’s where are our rugby journalists would like us to believe that all our losses transpired as a result of run-at-all costs rugby, whilst all our massive victories came due to ‘structured’ rugby, which has essentially become a less blatant word for ‘Jake White’ rugby. Let me remind you that the 16 – 9 loss against Australia is Brisbane was against a fresh Aussie team, not bruised after two tough encounters with NZ, and was not because the Springboks ran the ball from everywhere. Deans is a good coach, and he had the benefit of video’s of the Springboks play, whilst PdV had not seen the Aussies play under Deans at all. Let me also add that under White, the Springboks one just one game against Australia in Australia, and that came against an injury-ravaged Australia side who STILL completely dominated the match.

  Then came the 19 – 0 loss against NZ. I had the benefit of watching NZ practice live, and I will tell you this much, I have never seen a team more focussed. They knew they simply had to win this encounter to stand a chance at the Tri Nations trophy. Meanwhile, the Springboks seemed more interested in Percy Montgomery become the first Springbok to reach 100 games. In any case, far from running at all costs, the mistakes the Boks made in that first half were kicking mistakes! Please, watch the game again! Between Butch James and Fourie Du Preez we kick the ball out on the full 5 times in the first half alone! 5 times! Richie McCaw slid through a left footed grubber and the ball bounced kindly enough for Conrad Smith to stick his right finger on the ball. 0 – 5 half time. Then came a well-structured try by Dan Carter in the 67th minute, though not before Montgomery had missed two kicks which would have put us in the lead. At 0 – 12 in the 73rd, we HAD TO RUN the ball from our own try line, and in the process JdV threw an intercept from which Mealamu scored. 0 – 19, but not at all representative of the game, and not at all borne of out ‘risky’ rugby, up until we really had to. You can’t play ‘safe’ rugby when you’re 12 – 0 behind.

  The 27 – 15 loss the next week had much to do with refereeing and some poor finishing in the Aussie 22. It was similar to the England SA game, except with roles reversed. The only difference is that the Springboks didn’t lose the ball going wide, they lost it in close quarters! CJ van de Linde lost the ball trying to burrow his way to the line, and twice other players (whom I cannot recall) were turned over not more than 5 metres out. Australia, on the other hand, managed to score with their first attack. It was a simple case of capitalizing on opportunities (exactly what PdV is trying to teach the players!) with flair and not unstructured rugby! Overall, it appeared as if the Boks dropped their heads and ended up losing worse than what they should have since they knew their chance of winning the Tri Nations depended on scoring 4 tries and securing a good victory margin.

  Then 53 – 8. How this can be said to be Jake White rugby is unbelievable. Tell me, what was our biggest victory margin against top tier opposition in 22 games under Jake White? Oh yes, 14 points. 45 points is what we won this game by. And to say Australia were uninterested is also false. Had they won this game, they would have won the Tri Nations. Either they’re stupid, or someone is trying to detract from the brilliance of this victory. It was a simple case of the players finally getting it right, like they did against England this past weekend.

  And here’s where I don’t get it. People have this ridiculous belief that South Africa must stick to their ‘traditional’ strenghs. (i.e. boring, defensive, kicking rugby). Huh?! Just because some guy 25 years ago couldn’t pass accurately on both hands doesn’t mean, out of a crop of about 50 000 aspiring rugby players, we can’t find 22 who have flair, intelligence and precision combined with brute strength, power and aggression. We have the talent. Guys with speed and good ball handling skills combined with size. Look no further than Pierre Spies, Ryan Kankowski, Beast Mtawarira, Andries Bekker and coming through the ranks, Heinrich Brussouw and Nick Koster. I didn’t even mention backline players. Imagine a South Africa with the ability to run the ball from deep, patiently gaining ground through multiple phases and then scoring in the corner with the wing ala the team motto. Some guy in the week (I think it may have been Jeremy Guscott) said that the day South Africa find their 3 quarter line (i.e. spread the ball to their wings) the world of rugby will tremble before our might. Remember, it’s only risky if the players do not have the skills. And the skills can only really be taught on the pitch, if the team is willing to give it a go.

  Instead of blasting PdV for trying new things, for trying to take South Africa to the next level, look at what South Africa can do when they get it right. 53-8 against Australia and 42-6 at Twickenham. We are making the ‘sacrifices’ now, whilst players adapt to the increased flair and skill involved with PdV’s game plan, so that by WC 2011, the next Wimbledon, we can play New Zealand and know we won’t need an intercept and load of luck to win. This should make us excited about the future of South Africa, not scared. But then again, I’m afraid to say I don’t think it is the quality of rugby that scares some people in this country, it’s the race of the people providing this quality.

• 20.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:54 am

  pardon me…had*

• 21.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:58 am

  As much as I pride myself on our worldcup, reality is that NZ were consistently the best team 4 years prior to that…the new 4 year cycle has only just begun and right now NZ hasnt done anything to convince me they are going to be the same dominant force til 2011. Boks are on the rise can can only get better, that said, there is 1 reason why australiasia will always topple us regardless of our abundance of raw talent, and that is coaching structures/player management and development. With the right coaching structures and platform I can very well argue that a team like The Cheetahs or even The Lions have far superior RAW talent compared to the hurricanes or brumbies yet these teams will always pip us due to the discipline and solid coaching culture in the tasman

• 22.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:01 pm

  the boks would have been massacred if we didn’t bring an extra attacking element to our game after the worldcup. I definitely feel PDV tried to do too much too soon but fact is we were always going to hit speed bumps this year. ELV’s changed the game dramatically from what we experienced in the worldcup and b4…the super 14 was proof of this, where The Chapmion Bulls were made to look worse than the Queensland Reds academy. We seem to have finally found the right balance and as I said before, we’re on the rise

• 23.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:02 pm

  lol keo, big hits coming on this one, kiwis are going to be jumping.

  the french are just as weary of white saffas as anyone else, hell wait until you cornered by a french lefty journo, just say ‘Vichy’, big tears. besides its individuals that either confirm or tear down the stereotype.

• 24.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:03 pm

  #15 ziyaad:
  #19 ziyaad:
  #18 ziyaad:

  Do you honestly expect us to read the whole book you wrote ??

• 25.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:06 pm

  #16 ziyaad:
  I have already told you why this post is dishonest.
  In your opening paragraph you make the specific decision to only select a portion of White’s career and insist on making this comparison against PdV to prove White inferior.
  At least play with a straight bat and compare apples to apples.
  If you want to selectively choose your stats, then look at PdV 3n, with 2 from 6, 33%.

  White’s first season is exactly the same as PdV’s, 9 wins from 13 games, no better and no worse.

• 26.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:07 pm

  #16 ziyaad: #19 ziyaad: #19 ziyaad:
  Third day in a row you have posted that…..and I still can get myself to work through all that!

• 27.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:08 pm

  #16 ziyaad: #18 ziyaad: #19 ziyaad:

  Some excellent stuff there. You clearly worked on these for a long time, I thoroughly enjoyed reading those.

• 28.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:09 pm

  #25 cab:

  I say his entire record actually afterwards, I leave out the World Cup because I wanted to show our record during the 4 regular seasons.

  White’s first season was 8 from 12 btw, so yes, it was worse!

• 29.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:09 pm

  #26 Pietman:

  2nd time in 3 days. Last time it was on dead threads.

• 30.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:11 pm

  #25 cab:

  And please mate, it’s not a comparison (see paragraph two in post 16). The point is in that last post. I just needed to back it up.

• 31.chris_h:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:13 pm

  wow keo some massive calls there…
  ps I’m white and I dont plan on living with the baggage of apartheid for the rest of my life

• 32.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:15 pm

  #12 rangerman: lol. sounds like you had a great time there in Scotland. They love to party I told you so.

• 33.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:16 pm

  #28 ziyaad:
  the world cup was part of his season, indeed its why sub-strength teams were sent downunder for better or worse.

  thought it was 9 from 13, but will check, that is the stat that counts, not any other manipulated stat where you decide what counts as a season.

  bear in mind the slight issue of inheriting a team ranked 6th in the world that have just been beaten by scotland and knocked out of a RWC in the 1/4′s, as compared to inheriting a balanced team ranked no 1 in the world too.

  As for this article, i do not agree with it and PdV needs to be given some space, there have been some outstanding results this season.

• 34.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:16 pm

  #25 cab:
  Don’t know if you get SuperSport over there, but on Monday night’s program the overwhelming majority of callers reckoned that PdeV may become the best SA coach ever, and Joost and Breyten concurred.
  Many interesting reasons were put forward during the show to support those views.

• 35.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:18 pm

  #19 ziyaad: ziyaad, i am not sure if you are a journo or just another blogger, but if you are not a journo you should be one mate.

  brilliantly written and i couldnt agree more with the sentiment. in fact, sadly your level of analytical, incisive summation of the facts is sadly lacking in most of our sports writing. it baffles me to think that in a nation as sports mad as south africa, we are fed soundbites and snippets passing as sports reporting. and this on a daily basis!

  one thing though, the last line ruins the entire piece mate. many rugby minds disagree with PdV’s approach, rightly or wrongly and to equate dissent with race is to stifle debate and destroy the chance of honest discussion on rugby matters.

  leave race out of it. again, well written.

• 36.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:21 pm

  #33 cab:

  Fair enough.

  And sorry about the other day. I feel a fair degree of frustration when I see the things people say on this site, and perhaps I took it on you.

  Cheers.

• 37.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:22 pm

  #34 Pietman:
  interesting, i see no reason why that cannot be the case, but am also not going to tear down the results and achievements of a previous system to make the current one look better. huge insecurity. if ppl dont want to acknowledge a RWC that is your problem, but it happened, as they say, ‘look to the scoreboard’.

• 38.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:23 pm

  #35 rangerman:

  Thanks.

  And yeah, I know the race thing is tired, and trust me, I don’t want to cause conflict, but I wonder sometimes. If you read what people post on this site, it’s difficult to believe it’s anything else.

  But yes, I agree mostly.

• 39.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:24 pm

  #36 ziyaad:
  no problem, meant nothing to me. you can put forward your opinion and i will put forward mine, at the end of the day JW brought the RWC home and PdV has achieved two record victories against some of our greatest rivals and a much soughtafter win away in NZ.

• 40.Brendope:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:25 pm

  Ziyaad,

  There are some things you have failed to mention. The team jake white took over, was is disarray. He had to go through some of the pain of losses while rebuilding and giving the team a foundation. By 2008 the team is very different to the one in 05/06 etc. Similar to your ‘butterfly effect’ argument, it should also be pointed out that Jake white may have achieved similar or better results had he been in charge this year.

  I understand your argument and I understand that the greater good of adapting our style of play may cost us painful losses and inconsistent performances but please don’t be selective in your logic.

  Also, I think you should concede, expansive play and keeping ball in hand and attacking is also linked to structure. good attack starts with good defense, earning the right to swing it wide means winning the battle up front and competing well in the set piece. So the fact that this team does have the forward oriented strengths that jake white was so fond of, probably contributes to them being able to play expansively now.
  It is not as simple as saying , just keep ball in hand and keep attacking.

  Interesting point of view, but either a limited one or one where you have deliberately failed to acknowledge the necessity of structure.

• 41.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:25 pm

  Surely we are not so simplistic that we are waiting to see if NZ can beat the Poms by 36 points or more, and if not we are going to declare ouselves better than them?

• 42.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:26 pm

  #36 ziyaad: Perhaps the best written piece i’ve ever seen on this site (including keos)….and good statistical research as well. When you present facts, few people can argue. I especially concur on your point regarding WC07 players not as driven as their counterparts (such as JDV AND adi). I winced when FDP and habana came out with their whinging about the ELV’s after the first week…it reeked of a defeatist attitude before the season has even begun. Also agree with you regarding FDP…a good scrummie but definitely overrated, and your facts support this claim

• 43.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm

  #41 tight head: Yep

• 44.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm

  #38 ziyaad: sadly there will always be the ******** on either side who inflame the opinions of all of us “middle ground” rugby lovers, but i refuse to be drawn into a mud slinging match like that.

  again, well written, i may copy and paste it into an email for my mates and family (even though some of them may lambaste me for it ).

  i will give you credit. cool?

• 45.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm

  #41 tight head: hahahahaha, that gave me a bit of a laugh as well

• 46.hater:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:29 pm

  #24 grootblousmile: Read it!!!! It’s great.

  #19 ziyaad: Thank you for saying it!!!! Great posts, all three. I knew I was not the only person seeing the perpetual Pdv lynching for everything. And I was getting sick of the racist word “quota” being used for players that actually were performing well. And its great that you tell the truth about where this ” FEAR” of the SA rugby journo’s and public come from:

  “But then again, I’m afraid to say I don’t think it is the quality of rugby that scares some people in this country, it’s the race of the people providing this quality.”

  It is sooooooo true. And they know it. DAAAAANNNNKIE!!!!!!!

• 47.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:29 pm

  #19 ziyaad:
  very long post
  but
  i agree!

• 48.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm

  #40 Brendope: I dont think anyone is trying to take any credit away from jake white for how he contributed towards our development of a disciplinr with regards to structure HOWEVER his main point is that we now have to evolve and add other weapons to our armoury. Just because we’ve decided to invent guns doesnt mean any disrespect to the man who made bows and arrows….but if we keep using bows and arrows we will die!

• 49.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm

  #46 hater: eish.

• 50.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm

  #40 Brendope:

  Yes, structure is crucial.

  But you also need to be able to think on your feet. When there’s a 3 man overlap, even if it’s inside your own 22, spread the ball! By the way, I did not say South Africa should abandon structure, and neither is PdV. What he is saying, is that players need better skill levels so that they can be better with ball in hand and consequently better at constructing tries.

  You write well. I’m surprised you didn’t realise this already?

• 51.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:33 pm

  This is funny..this ziyaad fellows article has taken over from keo’s….appreciation of better (and well researched) journalism perhaps

• 52.hater:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:33 pm

  #25 cab: It’s okay that you love Jake. Whatever. I hate Jake.

• 53.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:34 pm

  #44 rangerman:

  Thanks pal! Sure.

• 54.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:36 pm

  #52 hater:
  i dont love jake in the slightest, came pretty close to your nick when heard the British Lions story.
  But you go ahead and believe what u must. alot of hurting and lashing out yet to come.

• 55.snake wanna bite me...no no:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:40 pm

  #24 grootblousmile: i read it. twas the best peace of insight by far.

• 56.PissAnt:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:40 pm

  Been an up and down year, missed opportunities but lots of positives too.

  There is more than just hope for 2009.

  We are on the right track.

• 57.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:41 pm

  #51 flanka:

  in my opinion, its not a competition or a comparison between jake and P.Divvy that should be concerning us, its a focus on what P.Divvy is trying to achieve and i back him fully on his stated intention of empowering our players to become better decision makers.

  it doesnt mean sacrificing our traditional strengths, conversely it means building upon them for maximum benefit.

  hard to achieve?

  yes.

  worthwhile?

  53-8 and 42-6 plus a win in NZ for the first time in 10 years say yes to me.
  i only hope it becomes more consistent as having been at murrayfield, my heart cant take too much more

• 58.Smellthis:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm

  Ziyaad
  Just read your earlier thesis…
  If you happen to start up a political party you can count on my vote…

• 59.It is just a game:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm

  Those two losses at home in the 3N caused this year to be a bit of a failure. Only a 53-3 victory, or better, could have cancelled those out.

• 60.caged:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm

  i live in the UK and travel a lot in Europe, and apart from some people in the media, we are actually very much liked over here both on and off the field by fans of the game.

  Also have a look at New Zealand history before saying they have done nothing to offend – better yet, go live there for a bit and see if the Maori people agree with you.

• 61.It is just a game:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm

  #59 It is just a game: 53-3 against England

• 62.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm

  #43 stodders:
  Well Stodders my friend, I am getting very tired of the absolute krap on this site.
  People congratulating each other about “facts” which are in fact “opinions” and the endless mental midgets arguing about Jake White versus PDV.
  Most of this is simply irrelevant to the future of international rugby, and has become a series of racial and political side shows to what should be some rugby fans talking about the game of rugby on a rugby site.
  So, no, I don’t feel better now.
  However I would like to discuss rugby with someone and not Jake White’s laundry bill!!

• 63.snake wanna bite me...no no:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:43 pm

  #19 ziyaad: you the best mate. i can always rely on you for accurate analysis.

  Keo, your article sucks…big time.

  this gravy train you on, is mearly propaganda to oust PDV…

• 64.snake wanna bite me...no no:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm

  #41 tight head: who does he think we are!

  keo, im sorry dude. today you lost it.

• 65.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:47 pm

  #57 rangerman: That game against the Scots at Murryfield me too. My heart almost stopped dead. lol. We played too much in their half in the first half of the game. Also we had such a rubbish ref that day. We had no clue what he wanted and he blew us almost out of Murryfield. We changed our gameplan in the 2nd half. Juan told that interviewer the team just went back to what they knew best. Then that ref just kept on blowing the Scots and their captained kept on asking that ref what he wanted and he could not even answer. He also waved John Smit away when he went to speak to the ref. Now on Boots Dan Retief says thats illegal for the ref to do that to a Captain as its a Captains right to speak to the ref but none of the NH refs would let John speak to them. Jeez I hope we don’t get any of them in the Lions tour. I have a good feeling for next year. We had a good learning curve this year and we will play better next year knowing what works for us and what does not. Bokke all the way next year. Also Sharks!!!!!!! lol

• 66.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:49 pm

  #37 cab:
  Sorry, I am in and out.
  There was also an interview with PdeV, and he hinted that we almost have a stand-in player for each position in the Bok team who is as good as the ‘chosen’ one (Jacques for Adi, Nokwe for Habs and so on).
  He is clearly working towards that.

• 67.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm

  #41 tight head: I agree tight head its just silly to compare who beats England by how much. Everygame is different.

• 68.XhosaKid:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm

  #16 ziyaad: I once used the soccer world cup to illustrate the point of how poor the rugby world cup, many failed to grasped the the point.

• 69.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm

  #65 Puma: look, i share Th’s worry that we have neglected a little too much the importance of forward play and securing our ball.

  PissAnts reckons PdV tried to jump from step one to step five without first completing the other steps so maybe a little naievete on show.

  nothing that cant be fixed. put it this way, at present i would far rather be a bok supporter than a pom

• 70.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm

  Keo

  words that jump out of your article ?

  “should”

  “theory”

  But the absolute clanger is the irony-fuelled:-

  “One thing New Zealanders love to do is talk up their All Blacks…”

  This in an article about how great the Boks are !

  There is only ONE way in comparing the relative merits of 2 teams and that is to review the results between those same countries. Whatever period of previous 1, 2, 3 or 10 years, the results are clear.

  Sure, the Boks won the RWC. But theyre not going to get a draw which cancels out their 3 main rivals every tournament. Tell me, if your QuarterFinal opponents were either France or Fiji, who would you choose ?

  “should”

  “theory”

• 71.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:54 pm

  #66 Pietman:
  Pietman, oh right, cant get all those programs, the backup thing is a good idea.
  think he’s greatest strength is that the team seem to like him and he gives them freedom and encourages them to express themselves.

• 72.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:55 pm

  #70 BlackPanther: didn’t Fiji nearly beat France in the 2003 World Cup if it wasn’t for Paddy O’Brien the kiwi referee? I think you should show more respect to the opposition sides in the RWC. I think thats part of the NZ problem, they underestimate the opposition because they face them when they’re weakened between rwcs. Take the game against Samoa C for example or France B before the World Cup

• 73.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:55 pm

  Great Article.

• 74.PissAnt:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:57 pm

  #69 rangerman:

  Yes achieving what he is looking to achieve, takes time and patience and you have to use the right formula.

  In my mind it can be done, hopefully Peter is the one to do it.

  I remain unconvinced about his methods (I see) but unfortunately not in a position to ask him outright and get in his mind.

  So impossible to judge, and rather unfair as most journo’s do (judge him).

  I think Springbok rugby is in a good place at the moment.

• 75.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:59 pm

  #66 Pietman: I think so Piet. I think we have that already. Only in the tight head position we don’t unless he looks at BJ and CJ aswell then we do.

  Beast – Heinke
  John, Bismarck,
  BJ, CJ, Mujati, JdP
  Bakkies, Danie
  Victor, Bekker,
  Burger, Brussow, Baywatch, Steggman, Botes (many in this position)
  Juan, Deysel,
  Kanko, Spies, Danie,
  Ruan, M.Steyn. Grant,
  JdV, F. Steyn / Steyn could also be fullback. Or bring back Barritt.
  Adi, JF,
  Habs, Nokwe,
  JPP, Odwa
  Jantjes, F. Steyn.

  There we have two full teams already. Just like the All Blacks do.

• 76.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:00 pm

  #71 cab:
  True, players seem to get on very well with him.
  Kace had an interesting post here somewhere of playful incident he witnessed in Scotland between PdeV and the players in the hotel lobby, seems like there is a strong camaraderie between them.
  Nice.

• 77.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:01 pm

  #75 Puma:
  That’s what Breyten said also, like the All blacks, we have two teams of almost equal strength now.

• 78.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:02 pm

  Ek is ‘n *************.

• 79.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:04 pm

  #74 PissAnt: ja, i am not convinced about our forward play at all.

  we were dominated by the scots and outscrummed by the poms yet managed to win those games. the first try against wales was some of the most breathtaking rugby i have witnessed from the boks in a long time. ditto for adi’s try against the poms which has been credited to JdV’s dummy running but imo was more about JPP’s line he ran.

  anyway, i am optimistic and am glad PdV has bought himself the time to implement his plan. time will tell.

• 80.Smellthis:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:04 pm

  Puma…you forgot W Pietersen man…I’m so dissappointed

• 81.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:05 pm

  #16 ziyaad:
  #18 ziyaad:
  #19 ziyaad:

  It seems to me that you would have preferred it had the Boks not won the World Cup. Sad man, really sad.

• 82.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:05 pm

  #78 WP Till I Die: aha, i knew there was a werfbobbiejean somewhere

• 83.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:07 pm

  #72 Big Hit:

  No France won that game 60 – 10 or something. Rupeni scored one of the all-time geat tries though.

• 84.XhosaKid:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:07 pm

  #24 grootblousmile: thats why you are so ignorant

• 85.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:08 pm

  “Take it from me, New Zealand, if they play to their potential, won’t beat England by 36 points this weekend because they are not as good a side as a Bok side in full throttle,…”

  I think you are being way to hasteful with this article my man. All Black could easily do 36. Lets see after the game then we can comment.

  Agreed we had a bad year, very bad if you think of it. We are 3rd on the Tri-Nations log and by the way we played deserves to be there.

  I was dissapointed by the Tri-Nation. Boks should have … but never did.

  Should haves don’t count in the REAL WOLD!!

• 86.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:09 pm

  #81 Loosehead:

  Not at all. Sad that you don’t understand English.

  “Would this type of record warrant number one status in any other sport? No. The fact is South Africa were at best the second strongest team in the world even after their World Cup victory. I am very proud of South Africa’s achievement, and do not dispute that they were the best team for the 6-week tournament, but like many things in life, they needed a bit of luck, nay, a lot of luck, to do it. However, I am making the point that without playing the top-seeded teams, the World Cup proved little in terms of us being the dominant team in world rugby.”

• 87.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:09 pm

  #70 BlackPanther: Tell me BlackPanther why you lost to France at the 1/4 final? I tell you why you had a very dumb captain on the field. Yes DUMB. There was only about 20min left your team were camped on the French try line for about 15min trying to get a try!!! arrogant I say in a knock out stage. All you had to do was pass the ball back and go for a drop that was all that was needed. We here in my house were all screaming like mad for your guys to win everyone was saying pass the ball back and just drop it over for goodness sake. But your team never. Your captain could have told them to do that. Then you lose the ball there and it was amost over for your guys again and when a drop is not on you try if from your halfway line from someone that does not kick that well. So yes your team choked big time as they always do. Just remember the world cup is the BIG ONE TO WIN we all know that and NZ for the great team they are just cant win it now can they. You won it in 1987 with out SA even being there so you cant even call yourself champs by not playing us then now can you. Go take a hike. You will come and cry here again after the next world cup. Also don’t run our captain down on the other kiwi thread yesterday. I respect most of the kiwis that come here and always support your team when they don’t play the Boks I have always done that all my life but guys like you put me off doing that.

• 88.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:09 pm

  #85 canafunk: But they might just in the REAL WORLD.

• 89.snake wanna bite me...no no:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:11 pm

  #19 ziyaad: who do you think is responsible for perpetuating this so called SA style of RuGGa ala 10men rugga?

• 90.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:13 pm

  #19 ziyaad: ” But then again, I’m afraid to say I don’t think it is the quality of rugby that scares some people in this country, it’s the race of the people providing this quality.”

  After reading your whole article you conclusion is this…. ????

  If you love rugby … you don’t care what race or what color… Your whole article sucks because of just that point. GET OVER THE RACE THING!!!

  FOR FARK SAKES!!! DOES MY HEAD IN!!!

• 91.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:14 pm

  #19 ziyaad:

  Great post mate. Interesting reading with so much sense. Peviously I wrote that the ELV’s forced us to move on and embrace the vision of PdV. However 90% of the people on this blog are still stuck in the past. Only time will tell like your factual topic are proving that soon common sense will prevail over sensational writing by our jurno’s. Then again sensational Journalism sells as 90% of our people not only enjoy reading it but BELIEVE it.

• 92.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:15 pm

  #86 ziyaad: Then why have a go at the Boks under Jake? They won the World Cup. Why compare the two coaches? They coach different styles and have different idea’s. Can people just not be happy that White’s Boks won the World Cup and that De Villiers’s Boks are playing really well.

  It is not the fault of the 2007 Boks that the NZers were not good enough to make it to the final.

  Wear your All Black jersey with pride.

• 93.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:16 pm

  #77 Pietman: We really do and it feels great. We actually have even more depth than them really. Behind those I mentioned there are guys just waiting to get a chance there too. It feels really great. I have a good feeling for our Boks next year.

• 94.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:19 pm

  #72 Big Hit: It was 1999. Bet the Kiwis thanked Paddy for that result

• 95.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:20 pm

  #92 Loosehead:

  You’re terrible.

  “Let me just add that this is not a comparison between Jake White and Peter de Villiers – it is a summary of the Springbok’s record over a 4 year period (i.e. the gap between the 2003 and 2007 World Cups). It is just so happens that Jake White coached the Springboks for this entire period. Had there been 3 coaches in this time, I would have shown their combined records. Continuing…”

  I don’t have an All Black jersey.

• 96.kace:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:20 pm

  i am a Bokke supporter but i swear Keo hates the All Blacka lol evrytime he has to write an article about the All Blacks (if anyone has noticed). i admire the All Blacks and i agree most of our players are better right now but to say the ABs arent capable of blowing the poms away by 36 is ridiculous.Keo u are guilty of the same thing u accuse the uk scribes of,your articles are focused on the ABs negatively and in that case you building them up without even knowing it.the ABs are a great team along with our Springboks theres not much between them in my eyes

• 97.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:22 pm

  #72 Big Hit:

  Keo

  Or Sth Africa vs Tonga AT the RWC

  I seem to recall the Boks mighty QuarterFinal opponents, Fiji, struggled passed their group rivals, Japan, by a few points.

  But answer the question 1st, Keo. Who would you choose between Fiji – a team Sth Africa had NEVER lost to. Or, France, who Whites Boks hadnt beaten away throughout his tenure.

  Its a simple question really, Keo.

• 98.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:22 pm

  #92 Loosehead: I think you miss ziyaad’s point. I don’t think he is belittling SA’s achievement in winning the world cup. They were the best team in the tournament.

  What I think he is trying to say is that one world cup win does not make the Boks the no.1 team in the world. The only way to gauge it is to compare SA’s head to head record with other rugby nations over a period of time. And the only team that SA fall short against is NZ. I think that is all he was trying to say.

• 99.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:22 pm

  #95 ziyaad: What, you think that I can’t read? Of course you are comparing them.

  Richie McCaw pajama’s then?

• 100.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:23 pm

  #92 Loosehead: agree with you there. In last years wc cup. NZ were not good enough. They could not even beat a poor French side that a poor English side beat a England side we beat twice. Some people here should really give credit where it is due. How many of these guys that are saying we were not that good but lucky just celebrated into the night on Oct 20th last year? I bet they all did now want to rubbish the team and coach last year. Its a different year new coach new styles and a few new players aswell. Some should just forget about last year and lets move on. We won the world cup I was very proud we had done that. It was a great achievment. This year I thought we would beat the AB’s well and we never and lost to 0 for the first time at home. We beat the Ab’s the first time in Dunedin and I was so pleased for the coach and players. Then we went downhill and finally made a big win at Ellis Park then went downhill again playing Wales and Scotland but we won and for me that what counts and then we finally made a really fantastic win against England on Sat. So I say to everyone lets leave it on a high for this year where our Boks have left it. On a high. Lets stop comparing coaches and styles of play and lets move on and look forward to next year. Let be proud that we are still world champions for the next 3 years aswell.

• 101.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:23 pm

  #97 BlackPanther: At least the Boks made it to the final.

• 102.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:23 pm

  #90 canafunk:

  The race “race thing” will always be part our rugby until such time you must proof beyond reasonable doubt that you deserve to be there. However, certain people is just forced to proof more and it takes a bit longer.

  Ziyaad’s topic just proof that…face the facts mate.

• 103.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:24 pm

  #97 BlackPanther: what point are you making BP??

  rhetorical questions dont make you smart, they mean you are unsure of making a statement.

• 104.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:24 pm

  #96 kace: When someone writes about the same thing so often, you wonder if they are not just writing it to force themselves to believe in it rather than the audience they are writing it for.

  When journalists stop writing about the ABs, you will know that they are no longer the benchmark that teams compare themselves to.

• 105.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:26 pm

  #98 stodders:

  Thank you. This is why we do comprehensions in school. To be able to read text and understand it.

• 106.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:28 pm

  #100 Puma: Puma,

  The Boks had a good year I think. They are on an upward curve, and I think they will get better in 2009. But so will Oz, NZ and I would hope the NH nations will improve from the rubbish they dished up in 2008.

  The Boks are not far off being the top team in the world, but they aren’t there yet. To do that, they need to win the Lions series and then win the best of 3 series with NZ and Oz next year. That would suggest to me that the Boks are leading the way at the front of the international game.

• 107.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:29 pm

  #98 stodders: The way I read it he rubbishes the 2007 Boks for winning the World Cup. Yet he admires the 2007 All Black for losing in the semi.

• 108.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm

  #99 Loosehead:

  Comparison:
  n.

  The act of comparing or the process of being compared.
  A statement or estimate of similarities and differences.
  The quality of being similar or equivalent; likeness: no comparison between the two books.
  Grammar. The modification or inflection of an adjective or adverb to denote the positive, comparative, and superlative degrees, as in English, along with the equative degree in certain other languages, such as Irish Gaelic.

  I’m not comparing anything. I’m saying South Africa rugby results prior to the World Cup. Sorry pal.

• 109.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm

  #97 BlackPanther: BlackPanther get to grips here. Your team lost to a very poor French side in the 1/4 final. Arg beat them in the opener. England beat them in the semi. We beat Arg in the semi and beat England twice. that beat the poor French side that beat your side. Why not look at it the way it really was. Your team choked as they were better than that but they played dumb rugby in that 1/4 final. Otherwise they could have won but they lost. Now you can say what you like we only play who is infront of us but you team was not they were already home lost to a poor French side in the 1/4 Lets hope your team can do better on home soil. If they feel the pressure away then how will they feel the pressure at home. Maybe you will get a easy road to the final there and just maybe you will win and then we can talk again. Also don’t call John Smit a pig like you did yesterday to Big Hit in the kiwi wrap yesterday. John is the best captain in the world right now. Have respect.

• 110.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm

  #94 stodders: yeah that was the one, it goes to show you shouldn’t underestimate the opposition, always respect them. Woodward used to make the same mistakes in the 6N in 2000-2002

  #97 BlackPanther: I’m glad you liken me to the great Keo but I think you have to beat who’s put in front of you at World Cups. As much as you whinge about France they were beaten by Argentina twice and South Africa stuffed Argentina. These sour grapes need to end, you don’t have a divine right to win the tournament and if you’re not good enough, you won’t. (and NZ haven’t for 21 years).

• 111.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm

  #95 ziyaad:

  Exactly what I mean…When you disagree and back it up with facts…You become the enemy.

• 112.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm

  #98 stodders:
  i dont believe that is the case, the world cup forms part of the season’s tests the same as the trinations does, if anything the world cup results in supertests in that players are rested in preparation for this event.

  That RWC 2007 with JW at the helm, as it was fit and primed would have taken some beating. I believe they were better than the ABs, but that is speculation since they never got to play, what is not speculation is that they won the RWC.

• 113.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:32 pm

  #100 Puma: You are of course aware that if people rubbished De Villiers’s coaching achievements like they rubbish Whites achievements they would be accused of racism.

• 114.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm

  #103 rangerman: Ranger,

  Comparing one team and their performances against another is a pointless exercise. If NZ don’t beat England by 36 points on Saturday, it may be because England didn’t put in two gutless displays in a row. It may be because the ABs didn’t play well.

  The only way you can gauge the standard of your team, is through TEST matches. South Africa will test themselves next year against NZ in a 3 match series. If you win that series, you will have tested and proved yourselves to be better than NZ.

• 115.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm

  #113 Loosehead: 100% correct. I agree.

• 116.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm

  #98 stodders: how long does the period of time have to be? NZ posters here like to go back 100 years

• 117.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:33 pm

  #104 stodders:

  Well said

• 118.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:35 pm

  #114 stodders: but what about the teams rebuilding and aiming towards the World Cup in 3 years time? the World Cup is judgment day for every team, they all build towards it. SA had a change of coach this year, are they expected to be a force straight away?

• 119.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:35 pm

  #87 Puma:

  Pat yourself on the back. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

  Actually I spent 2-3 years BEFORE RWC’07 telling my Safa colleagues that 1. White was a good coach and 2. Smit was an excellent Captain. This was in the face of their fair-weather opinions that losses (because there were many, remember) equated to incompetency. “Smit is not even our best hooker…..he’s about 3rd or 4th best…..Botha….Bismarck….”. And White was always criticised for his record. Fair enough too, it was ****. But the objetive person could see what he was doing was quality.

  I can truly say I had more faith in the Boks doing well at RWC 07 than 90% of the Safas I know (many). Its a knockout tournament, it doesnt take a genius to figure out the roll of the dice can work for you or against you on any given day. The Boks avoided their 3 main rivals, all of whom White had a terrible record against – NZ, Aus and France. And good luck to them, but it doesnt change the facts. But Springbok fans and their opinions sway like the wind in the face of results only. Thats why Keo feels that after 36-pt win at Twickenham suddenly equates to the Boks being ‘the best’. This a week after nearly losing to Scotland. SCOTLAND ! Just jog back on this blog to see what they thought then.

  How IS the weather in the Republic today – Fair ????

• 120.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:35 pm

  #109 Puma: Perhaps the All Blacks should just not play in the World Cup seeing that it is meaningless to them.

• 121.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:36 pm

  #107 Loosehead: That is your subjective opinion. Mine doesn’t see that written in his posts.

  For me, he doesn’t take away South Africa’s achievement in winning the world cup. I think he is trying to keep his feet on the ground and is saying, we won the world cup, but to be the best over a consistent period of time will take much, much more. Not much to argue with there.

• 122.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:38 pm

  #120 Loosehead: its not meaningless to them believe me.

• 123.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:38 pm

  #110 Big Hit: Also Big Hit BlackPanther does not mention the world cup they won South Africa were not even there. We beat their rebel side in 1986 when they came here which was most of their world cup side in 1987. So their only win as far as we are concerned meant nothing to us without playing us then if he has to argue we never played his team that actually had a chance to get to the final last year but never.

• 124.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:38 pm

  Here’s a quote for Puma and Loosehead. I hope you are able to understand my point.

  “The man who said “I’d rather be lucky than good” saw deeply into life. People are afraid to face how great a part of life is dependent on luck. It’s scary to think so much is out of one’s control. There are moments in a match when the ball hits the top of the net and for a split second it can either go forward or fall back. With a little luck it goes forward and you win. Or maybe it doesn’t and you lose.”

  New Zealand were unlucky that two rugby officials didn’t call a blatant forward pass. South Africa were lucky they didn’t face NZ. Great world cup triumph nonetheless. But it doesn’t mean we’re the world’s greatest team. *phew*

  Not the point of my articles though. Do not get sidetracked.

• 125.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:39 pm

  #103 rangerman:

  by rhetorical, you mean the answer is obvious ?

  strange. There seems an absolute reluctance to answer this question.

  Rangerman – if you could choose a QterFinal opponent, who would it be – Fiji or France ?

• 126.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:40 pm

  #118 Big Hit:

  True.

• 127.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:41 pm

  #112 cab: I think you could be right. We don’t know.

  But this year, the ABs proved they were better than the Boks in the 3 match series. 2007 was last year. Winning the world cup didn’t give SA a right to dominance, as you will be the first to admit.

  There are 3 more years until the next world cup. Until then, teams can either choose to rebuild and take their beatings, or can try to win every test match they play in without excuses, and try to be the best right now. I think that is what SA, NZ and Oz are trying to do.

• 128.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:42 pm

  #114 stodders:

  Correct!

  It was mentioned befor on this blog…if the All Blacks beat England by one point it does not mean that the boks are the better team in comparison. There is to many factors to take into consideration. Rather compare two teams head to head over a period of time. That is why I am a lover of tours like the upcomming lions test series in 2009. True measure!

• 129.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:42 pm

  Here we go again, keo.

  Just compare these 2 in the same topic: 1) “The Springboks are a better team than the current All Blacks – and Saturday’s Test against the Poms at Twickenham will prove it.” and 2) “New Zealand once again have the mantle of best team in the world in a non-World Cup year. This New Zealand team will be even better in 2009 and in 2010 they will be unbeatable.”

  Obviously, logic is not among your strong points, dear Keo. You say A is better than B and just after a couple of sentences you state that B is the strongest team in the world bar during WC. Have you bothered to read what you have written?

  “The rugby world, post 1994, has come to accept and tolerate us, but – with the possible exception of the French – they don’t like us.”

  That’s harshly said. Boks have many followers worldwide, not just in France. And they are respected everywhere. Of course, not by all but you will not find any team in the whole world who is loved or respected by every single fan. The ABs are not an exception – Bit Hit or Stephen Jones are clear examples.

  “It is why the Springboks will simply have to settle for winning World Cups while the All Blacks continue to win over fans and the northern hemisphere rugby media every November.”

  You are not alone. England did exactly the same.

  “In 2011 they will implode and the cycle will continue and we’ll be told by New Zealanders that the World Cup has killed international rugby and that the yellow cup really means nothing because a team has to be judged over a four-year period and not a three week play-off period.”

  I’m not a Kiwi however the ABs supporter. WC really means a lot, a very big lot. But it is not alpha and omega. Basically you are saying, Keo, that you do not give 2 fingers about how your team performs during 46 out of 48 months in 4 year cycle, it’s all “building for …… (insert any year 1-4 years away) WC”. Brilliant excuses for being caught pants down.

  In that case your team will hardly respected even in your own backyard.

  “A settled Bok team, with so much natural talent, should have whipped the All Blacks and Wallabies, home and away, and then there would have been a supporting argument to my theory that South Africa’s players are better than New Zealand’s. Instead I’ll continue to get the 19-0 defeat at Newlands thrown at me and the names of Carter and McCaw. On the latter I concede, but overall the only thing the All Blacks should be beating the Boks at is the ridiculously overhyped pre-match haka.”

  Keo, you are making ridiculous fool of yourself. First of all, “should have”. On what basis may I ask? Your most gifted talents have usually received wooden-spoon in the 3 Nations and only 2 times have won it. 2 times from 13 – comparing to New Zealand’s 9. And I have rarely seen SA teams lately in the Super 12/14 play-offs. Bar 2007 season, when – you know what Henry did to NZ teams – in the last couple of years you see either one or zero SA teams in the semis. They naturally finish in the middle or rock bottom of the table.

  “Take it from me, New Zealand, if they play to their potential, won’t beat England by 36 points this weekend because they are not as good a side as a Bok side in full throttle, and that is why 2008 was the year in which the Boks stumbled when they should have soared.”

  This is so ridiculous statement that I even will not bother to comment. Just sums up it all perfectly.

• 130.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:43 pm

  #124 ziyaad: were they unlucky their captain and flyhalf ignored the coach’s instruction to hit a drop-goal? were they unlucky that they enjoyed over 60% of possession and territory and couldn’t convert it into points?

• 131.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:43 pm

  #125 BlackPanther:
  the way the fijians played that day with the crowd support, France.
  I dont think France performed anything like Fiji.
  they did well against the ABs, but the ABs seemed to resort to pick and drives and clam up the longer the game wore on and the possiblity of defeat loomed nearer. The boks were under a similar position against Fiji, but John Smit called them aside and there was a conscious change in tactics, they did not get overwhelmed by the choke.

• 132.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:45 pm

  #119 BlackPanther: White’s team beat Australia last year and its not just SA fans who are fickle its all sports fans.

• 133.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:45 pm

  #119 BlackPanther: BP. I have just given myself a pat on the back it feels good. I always backed the Boks to win last year. We had great players in that team. Your side never won because they could not beat a very poor French side that Arg beat twice that we thrashed and a Eng side that beat the very poor French side your side could not beat. I don’t really have to repeat that again. Every South African was supporting your side when they played France we all felt sad that we would not face the AB’s in the final as thats the final I had predicted but we can only face who ever makes it to the final your team never.

  You should also appologise about calling John Smit a pig yesterday on the kiwi thread to Big Hit. In fact I think John is our best hooker. We never missed Bismarck at all on Sat. John played awesome there and what a captain he is. Pure class.

  Yes our weather is always fantastic here as it normally is how is yours there? Rain?

  For me I would love for our teams to meet in the final of world cup 2011 thats the dream final. It only happened once. It may again. WC are played under pressure more so than the 3N that comes around every year. I think your team suffers nerves then why I have no idea as they never suffer nerves any other time they just go out and play great rugby. Not in world cups though.

• 134.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm

  #127 stodders:
  Early this year the ABs proved they were better than the Boks under a brand new coach, by 2-1, but i would be quite interested in a series right now the way the Boks are playing and the new coach having had a year to cut his teeth and impose his style. the boks played much better rugby as the 3N wore on and the EOY tour wore on.

• 135.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:46 pm

  #131 cab: yeah Smit kept his head and closed the game down with the pack, McCaw lost his and ignored the coach’s call for a drop-goal

• 136.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:47 pm

  #123 Puma: Puma,

  Liverpool won the Champions League in 2005. As much as I love Liverpool football club, I know that it took some luck on the way to win a knockout tournament.

  Liverpool won the European Champions League Trophy, but there was no way that I would class them as being the best in Europe, let alone the best in England.

  Now, football is even more competitive than rugby, in that there are more teams capable of upsetting others if they get their tactics right on the day and others don’t play to their potential. That’s sport.

  NZ got it wrong in 2007. They deserved to go out on that basis. they now have to lick their wounds for another 3 years. In fact, every team bar SA has to lick their wounds for the next 3 years, because everyone else failed.

  You can lose 10 times in a row to an opponent, but if your one win coincides with a world cup knockout match, the glory is all the greater. That’s the beauty of one-off matches. There is no comeback like there is in a series. However, in a series of matches between two teams, the victor generally proves themselves to be better, don’t you think?

• 137.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:48 pm

  #102 Momentum: Yes that is a fact that no one complains about. We all love the Beast and JP and Habanna and Ricky and who ever…

  We should have won the Tri-nations… THATS A FACT and we didn’t THAT’S ANOTHER FACT.

  Giving excuses why we didn’t is bullshit. And it doesn’t matter because the FACTS are in black in white. WE CAME LAST IN THE TRI-NATION!!

  FACT!

• 138.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:49 pm

  #133 Puma: The All Blacks must avoid the customary choke to make it to the final.

• 139.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm

  #110 Big Hit:

  It is also noticeable that you never answer any question which doesnt fit with your poisoned opinions. For that reason, you are the biggest FRAUD on this blog.

  Springboks had NEVER lost to Fiji OR Argentina. Incredible luck to draw both of them only to meet a team in the Final who they had already beaten 36-0.

  Despite the results, I still travelled to Paris and supported the Boks in the Final. Thats the difference between being a true rugby fan and a poisoned one.

• 140.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm

  #130 Big Hit:

  No. But 7 points in a two-point game is significant mate.

  Remember, they also had Dan Carter and soon after Nick Evans injured by the 60th minute.

  Most injuries are accidents. I think back to Freddie Michalek, Jaque Fourie etc.

  And Luke McAlister had not played flyhalf since the 2006 Air New Zealand Cup. He was not the ideal person to take the drop, and McCaw must have believed he if kept applying pressure France would eventually give away a penalty. I’ll tell you this much, a less lenient referee would have penalised France for hands in. They kept slowing the ball until Barnes shouted hands off.

  So in quite a few ways, NZ were unlucky.

• 141.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm

  #131 cab: #133 Puma:
  Jake’s biggest achievement in winning the WC was that he pulled it of despite the best attempts of the Komphela Co to derail him (passport threads and such).
  Fortunately this time PdeV made it clear from the beginning that he won’t stand for that nonsense..
  We must never forget under what de-motivating circumstances Jake had to work.
  Hence comparisons are meaningless.

• 142.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm

  #128 Momentum: Thats a fact you can only really measure your team in tours of old when you play each other a few times in a space of a few weeks. Thats the best. I too am looking forward to the Lions tour and just hope no injuries in the S14 or the Lions tour so we can have a good game with a full strength team agains the Kiwis. We should have played them at Ellis Park and Loftus but we are playing them in Durban and Bloem.

• 143.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm

  #114 stodders: agreed stodders, where did i say different………..today

• 144.Wallabie. - Does England have a front row?:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:51 pm

  Question that Keo needs to ask himself is…who is preparing for the next world cup.

  RSA have largely kept the same players and so in the next 2- 3 years will see some changes maybe many.
  NZ have newbies coming through so will be strong in 1-2 years if not stronger.
  Aus is at a very young rebuilding stage with a lot of very young players being blooded.

  There will be question marks on RSA ability to play against NZ in NZ.

  If the same format is to be applied after the group stages as the 2007 RWC RSA could be facing either France or England in the quater final. A likelihood could be that RSA faces NZ in the quater final if they finish second in their group after facing France.
  This depends on final placing at end of november.

• 145.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:51 pm

  #137 canafunk: The Boks played poor rugby in most of the matches in the 2008 3N, just like they were poor against the Welsh and the Scots.

• 146.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:52 pm

  #106 stodders: That would indeed be leading the way. If they can pull that off I will be a very happy man! And the fact is we can, we have the talent and the team.

• 147.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:52 pm

  #129 Nils:

  I hope KEO does not believe what he writes…PHEW

• 148.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:52 pm

  #137 canafunk:

  Why should we have won the Tri-Nations?

• 149.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:53 pm

  #145 Loosehead: Agreed!! Not good enough by far!

• 150.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:54 pm

  #141 Pietman:
  agreed, i perhaps incorrectly believed White to be made of better stuff, but no-one is perfect, he is afterall a rugby coach who stood his ground and was vindicated.
  PdV is a new coach that seems to have started very well. Did not understand some of the selections in the lead-up to the 3N, but the results for the year in general speak for themselves, very good.

• 151.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:55 pm

  #141 Pietman: Hi Piet. Yes you are so right. Jake had to put up with so much interference in his 4 years and especially before the world cup. Imagine if someone told the All Blacks coach they were going to take away their teams passports just a few weeks before? I don’t think the kiwis here understand how much stress and pressure that really is. I salute Jake for putting up with all that and eventually getting his team he wanted and he won us the cup. I celebrated that night and was so proud. I am still proud that the world cup is ours for the next 3 years. Pleased that PdV wont put up with nonsense. But think he had to include Luke. I feel he had pressure there aswell but I think that worry is off his back now and he can just look forward to coaching the Boks next year. I feel we are going to do well next year. I really think we are. We have now worked out what works and what does not. With these players and if the don’t get injured I see us doing very, very well next year.

• 152.Momentum:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:55 pm

  #137 canafunk:
  I rest my case

• 153.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:56 pm

  #149 canafunk:

  We haven’t been good enough most years then.

• 154.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:57 pm

  #145 Loosehead: Actually Loosehead, the Boks right now are in the best form to win a world cup. They produce inconsistent performances, yet have the ability to raise their game every once in a while to deliver a telling performance.

  What they are not is a consistently good rugby team, well not yet anyway. Over the next 3 years, that might change, but in terms of winning a world cup, do you really want them to do so?

• 155.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:58 pm

  #148 ziyaad: Because we had momentum
  we have a established team, we have depth and talent.

• 156.Wallabie. - Does England have a front row?:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:58 pm

  Current rankings

  NZ
  RSA
  Australia
  Arg
  England
  wales
  France
  Ireland

  possibilities
  Group 1 NZ ENg
  Group 2 RSA Wales
  Group 3 AUS France
  Group 4 Arg IRE

  or
  Group 1 NZ IRELAND
  Group 2 RSA FRANCE
  Group 3 AUS WALES
  Group 4 ARG ENG

  in the second scenario AUS will have the same easy path to the Final as RSA had in 2007.

• 157.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:59 pm

  #155 canafunk:

  So who’s to blame that we DIDN’T win the Tri-Nations?

• 158.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 13:59 pm

  #125 BlackPanther: it would be france, and yourselves?

  i dont see what you are getting at though? are you saying that because we played fiji, we were lucky?

  we beat whoever was put in front of us, that your mob couldnt is no reflection on us, no matter how far you try and stretch it mate.

  

• 159.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:00 pm

  #144 Wallabie. – Does England have a front row?: Most of the Boks wont even be 30 by the next world cup. Its still mostly a very young team. John, Victor, Bakkies, Juan will be over 30. None of the others will. We have replacements already. Bekker/Victor Deysel/Juan if they look after John he will still be captain then. Heard PdV still wants him until then. Hooker or tight head can play until they are 33 thats the age John will be then. Not sure who will take over from Bakkies. Maybe Bakkies will be there too he will only be 32.

• 160.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:01 pm

  #153 ziyaad:

  At least we’re tried something new this year.

  Now time for a comparison, Loosehead.

  White was all about the results, and still our results were average.

  The only time he did something purely for the WC was when he sent a ‘B’ team to Australiasia in 2007 Tri Nations. It actually made no difference in terms of results. New Zealand beat us in our backyard and Australia came within 3, do you really think we were going to go to the Antipodes and win?

  PdV wants to try something new, so that by WC 2011, we will be a more complete team. And yes, our results have suffered, to an extent. (Although 9 from 13 is NOT a bad return).

  But be patient. He is right.

• 161.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:01 pm

  #139 BlackPanther: ‘Springboks had NEVER lost to Fiji OR Argentina.’

  you make it sound like its the same 15 players who take the field every time for both sides, every game is different BP, its time the ABs learned that at RWC time, reputation counts for nothing.

  #136 stodders: if you’re going to compare competitions surely its better to compare the football world cup and the rugby world cup, not club sides.

  #140 ziyaad: we lost players in the final itself and monty was on one leg for SA but thats no excuse its a mini-war out there, NZ had no mercy when two Welsh players were down injured at the weekend and rightly so, NZ didn’t have the nous to win that QF.

• 162.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:03 pm

  #154 stodders: stodders I like the sound of 2 our of 4 world cups. Makes us the best at world cups. If we win the next one. 3 out of 5. Who knows. These players could still be around then. Most will still be under 30 then.

• 163.Shakes:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:03 pm

  ziyaad thanks for the “article” makes very interesting reading and makes a lot of sense unlike Keo and his gang. If I was the owner of this site you would have been hired!
  Unfortunately it would appear that as far as many of the bloggers here it will always be a whiteys job. PDV is starting to rock all he needs to do now is get rid of the WC heroes that have not adapted to the ELVs. As for gameplans I don’t think Jake’s gameplan of last year would have worked with the ELVs (especially 3N where we had short arm penalties). If Jake is so good as what is made out how come he was not snapped up.

• 164.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:03 pm

  #154 stodders: True!

• 165.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:03 pm

  #139 BlackPanther: thats bullshit, you went because like all kiwis you went for the package which included finals tickets

• 166.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:04 pm

  #162 Puma: our = out

• 167.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:04 pm

  #133 Puma:

  The reference to Smit was that he whinged after Thorn dumped him. Smit elbowed Thorn in the back of the neck – try it sometime and see whether you can stop yourself reacting to it.

  Its no different to Johan ‘Chew’ le Roux biting Fitzys ear (’94 ?). So le Roux becomes the Villain, but does anyone seriously believe Fitzy hadnt wound him up and provoked it ? I certainly dont.

  Ive met Smit and shared a meal with him a year prior to the RWC. In fact, I told my son right there that “he would lift the RWC one day”. Which is considerably more faith than the fair-weather Safa fans I know.

  But, as with any rugby player worth his salt, Smit knows how these games work. He needled Thorn and got a reaction. But he had it coming, just like Fitzy did. Thats never the whole story now is it.

• 168.Wallabie. - Does England have a front row?:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:04 pm

  - Ireland is on a downward path
  - France is not that fantastic outside of France…unless playing RSA.
  - Wales pretty strong now but not a force outside Millenium stadium
  - ENG have a lot of catching up…they might just end up inventing another sport to be competitive in.
  - RSA i have my doubts of them being competitive in NZ against the top 4 nations
  - AUS maybe competitive but players may still be fresh

  – All points to a NZ triumph

  Regardless of what KEO drivells about NZ are fantastic at home. The only team to upset them at home will be AUS…but i doubt at RWC.

• 169.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:04 pm

  #140 ziyaad: ziyaad, forget about it. That game took place last year. It cannot change, no matter how many times it is revisited. The ABs lost. The scoreboard at 80 mins when the ref blows his whistle is all that matters.

  The Boks deservedly won the world cup because they finished each of their matches in front on the scoreboard. They deserved all the plaudits at the time for doing that.

  That was then though, this is now. I look forward to 2009, as i think NZ, Oz and SA will all be stronger. I look forward to seeing if Oz and SA S14 teams can put together good performances and push for the S14 title, especially as the Crusaders are now without Robbie Deans and will also be without Dan Carter.

  I especially look forward to the Lions tour of course, where I don’t think SA will have it as easily as the EOYT results suggest. McGeechan, Gatland et al will pick wisely, and the Lions will push the Boks. The Boks should triumph, but should never won a team a series.

  Then I look forward to the 3N series. It promises to be a humdinger!

• 170.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:05 pm

  #155 canafunk:

  Momentum? 8 months later? Matfield was hopelessly out of form early in the campaign, Smit was injured, Jaque Fourie was injured, Fourie Du Preez was injured.

  I’ve dealt with the established team theory already.

  Not as much depth as New Zealand.

  And talent, yes, in abundance, which is why we should groom our players to justfiy that talent on a consistent basis.

  What is there left to dispute pal?

• 171.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:05 pm

  #169 stodders:

  Ya just challenging Big Hit.

• 172.PissAnt:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:06 pm

  #137 canafunk:

  You are passing a lot of things of as fact it seems.

  So what are our reasons/excuses for not winning any of the other Tri-Nations tournaments?

  What ‘facts’ influenced that?

  For instance.

  IN 1998 we won 4 out of 4 Tri-Nations games.

  IN 1999 we only managed a 25% return, 1 win out of 4.

  The same coach, the same team more or less (who conquered the world in 1998) but a very different result?

• 173.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:07 pm

  #144 Wallabie. – Does England have a front row?: howdy walla, remember that the vast majority of our side is young mate, very young. they will mostly be there for the next wc, battle hardened and immeasurably experienced. kinda like the great wallabie sides of the last ten years.

• 174.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:07 pm

  #18 ziyaad: “Fourie Du Preez, in particular, is rather overrated.” So the fact that most international rugby writers and ex players thinks he’s the best in the world means nothing to you and you know better than them?

• 175.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:07 pm

  #165 rangerman: I was at the Kruger Park in 1995 during the beginning of the World Cup. Just after we beat Aus in the opener. When we got there and went to dinner at the restaurant at night there were a bus load of kiwis here for the wc. I asked them who was going to win they all said. “With out a doubt our team the All Blacks thats why we have already got tickets to the final” We all know how that one ended. At least that time their supporters could use their tickets to watch their team.

• 176.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:07 pm

  #160 ziyaad: The 07 worldcup win was not as good as the 95 one when we beat Oz, France (just) and Nz. This could maybe describe your point further to the haters.

• 177.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:08 pm

  #169 stodders: I have to say the Aussies and Kiwis have pulled a masterstroke with the ELVs, not only has it limited South Africa’s challenge but its affecting the crowds at GP games, the impact of the home nations and the two best coaches in the UK mcGeechan and Edwards who now can’t buy a win. I only pray they’re rejected en masse.

• 178.Wallabie. - Does England have a front row?:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:08 pm

  #159 Puma:

  I did not mention that age will be a factor. In RSA anything can happen to a player.

  Players are complaining of exhaustion and going by history BOK players dont tend to last too long as they are poorly managed.

• 179.fish out of water:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:08 pm

  Underachievement is an understatement.

  Under coached, lack of game plans, quota’s, political interference, Frolik and Khompela – there is more against the Boks than actually going for the Boks. It is a sheer miracle that we are not 88th in the world like Bafana Bafana.

• 180.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:10 pm

  #176 Dumb Supporter: a win is a win however, you think NZ would be complaining about opposition if they won the Cup? their Under-21 side faced Fiji, Argentina and England in the final this year but they don’t have to listen to the kind of jealous sour grapes spouted by opposition fans

• 181.Loosehead:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:10 pm

  #160 ziyaad: Ziyaad. I am not rubishing PDV, nor am I comparing him to JW. Each coach has his own idea’s and must be judged on his own results. JW’s team took a few beatings but he won the World Cup.
  I hope that PDV’s team doesn’t take any beatings and also wins the World Cup.

• 182.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:12 pm

  #174 canafunk:

  Good. We’re moving on.

  It does mean something to me. The fact that they think that (although I dispute the belief that most rugby writers believe that) means I think he is overrated. His performances this year, in particular, were very average both for the Bulls and Springboks.

• 183.wpw:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:13 pm

  What utter garbage!!!

  Keo

  Your site has become a joke. The articles are of such poor quality…

• 184.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:13 pm

  #181 Loosehead:

  I’m glad.

• 185.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:13 pm

  #165 rangerman:

  I suppose I could have sold them, like everyone else. But I didnt. I also cheered myself hoarse for Sth Africa. It was a great atmosphere, why would any true rugby fan want to miss out on a Rugby World Cup Final ?

• 186.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:14 pm

  #169 stodders: stodders I think the Lions tour will be much harder than we think. Two great coaches and McGeechan is very smart. Gatland is a very good coach too. I think we should win the series but maybe not all the games. I think the altitude games we should win but it will be harder in Durban. Looking forward to the games already. If there are no injuries and the guys are not that tired we should have a great 3N. Remember we play S14 from beginning of Feb. Its a brutal competition very hard, and fast. Lots of injuries normally come from there. So hoping none do.

• 187.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:16 pm

  #166 Puma:
  See you mentioned that old time long tours.
  What I would give to see those again!
  Touring sides playing in places like Kimberley, East London, Upington, Boksburg……and mix with the locals.

• 188.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:16 pm

  #178 Wallabie. – Does England have a front row?: Yes you are right there.

• 189.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:16 pm

  #177 Big Hit: Been reading Stephen Jones again have you for your opinions

  Have you ever thought that the reason for lower numbers at GP grounds has anything to do with a recession that the UK is currently under?

  Or maybe it is because the standard of play in the GP this year has been poor, mostly because teams have been penalised off the park because refs are adhering to the IRB instruction for players to stay on their feet at the breakdown. Nothing to do with the ELVs.

  I know it is easy to blame the ELVs, but they are merely a convenient excuse. Oh, and they are an IRB directive, not a NZ or Australian conspiracy. then again, you’ve never let the facts get in the way of a good whinge, have you.

• 190.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:17 pm

  #161 Big Hit:

  The only teams the ABs have lost to at a RWC are SA, France and Australia. They are also the only teams NZers truly respect. Thats because its harder to respect teams youve NEVER lost to (eg Fiji and Argentina) or at a RWC (England).

  Oh go on, pick holes in that theory.

  Does the England cricket team respect Australia in the same way they respect Kenya or Bangladesh ?

• 191.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:17 pm

  #174 canafunk:

  Come to think about it, the current crop of scrumhalves worldwide are not particularly good.

  So Fourie Du Preez is still probably amongst the best in the world.

  Having said that, he is extremely overrated. His impact is far inferior to Dan Carter’s in the role of flyhalf. The impression I get is that we think of FdP as our ultimate gamebreaker – a crucial component of our team, almost indispensable.

  Januarie, however, is a more than adequate replacement.

• 192.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:18 pm

  #175 Puma: bwaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaa!

  #167 BlackPanther: you are so one eyed its amusing pal. thorne dropped his elbow TWICE into conrad jatjies head before smit pushed him in the ruck. but you didnt see that did you?

  no, because your kiwi media dont show you that do they?

  its funny and sad, bittter and sweet, maybe thats why you make a meal of it?

  just lay off the “pig” comments ok? its all pleasant until that line is crossed.

• 193.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:18 pm

  #184 ziyaad: I feel saver with him there than any other scrummie, besides Ruan. But I believe he’s found his spot and we should keep him there. S14 and Lions and T-Nations

• 194.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:18 pm

  #185 BlackPanther: overconfidence again, you should ask me next time if I think you’ll make it to the final, I’ll give you an honest answer and you can decide whether to book your tickets accordingly

• 195.jakesfourie:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:19 pm

  Ziyaad.
  I understand where ur coming from with the race card&all.I seldom read ppls comment on this site,because 2 many r plain racist.A guy like adi jacobs can b rugby playa of the year,he’ll still b **** in the eyes of many of the ppl on this site.
  I do however feel that we missed an oppurtunity by not keeping jake on as coach&I do also believe that pdv has 1 thing on his mind which is to play running rugby,but he is not focussed enough on creating a platform 2 do this.
  To focus on the end result but 2 not give a damn about the detail of how 2 achieve it could b 2 ur detrament.
  We all want 2 c the boks play attractive rugby,but by the end of the day every coach will b judged on results.Winning a wc is results.In no other country would the wc winning country b replaced.
  I really hope pdv learns from his mistakes of this year,cause season 2 is always tougher than season 1.

• 196.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:20 pm

  #191 ziyaad: I have no big problems with Januarie. I just think Fourie is better all round. But Ricky plays well agains the All Blacks. And that’s something big!

• 197.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:20 pm

  #186 Puma: Yeah, with the option of picking some of the best in Europe, the should be very competitive.

  They need a coach though that can yield them into a team.

  How would a Lions team look on current form?
  15.
  14.
  13.
  12.
  11.
  10.
  9.
  8. Powell – really impressed against SA
  7.
  6.
  5.
  4.
  3.
  2.
  1.

• 198.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm

  #187 Pietman: Piet you have no idea how great those days were. We need to bring back the tours. We really do. Have a squad of 30 players and lets have those mid week games back. (dirt trackers) I loved them. Tours you can judge just how good you are. If we got to play the AB’s here 3 times and have mid week games it would be a lot better to see just how good we are. No travel inbetween. Like you mention to play in places like Kimberley, Boksburg, East London also Upington. It would be really good for rugby. Thats why I am so looking forward to the Lions tour. As that is the only team that tours now. I think the Lions are here for about 6 weeks. Its going to be a cracker. Cant wait.

• 199.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm

  #180 Big Hit: Actually, NZ played Wales in the semi and England in the final. England accounted for Oz and SA, which was good for NZ. It made it easier for them, yes. Playing SA and Oz would have been a tougher assignment for them I do believe, because those teams respect but don’t fear NZ, whereas England patently did in the final.

• 200.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:21 pm

  #175 Puma:
  Hehehehe!
  Yes, i saw the agony of some AB supporters in 2007, those who had pre-booked and paid for the final….having to fly all the way to Europe to watch SA and England play in order to get something for their money’s worth.
  No lekker…

• 201.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:22 pm

  #185 BlackPanther: i am just pulling your chain mate, thanks for the support!

• 202.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:22 pm

  #177 Big Hit:

  The other side to that theory is that DESPITE the Sth Hem teams – collectively – playing under the ELVs this season, they have come to the UK/France, who have HOME advantage and RULES advantage and still cant buy a win.

  The Springboks win at HQ last Saturday is a direct benefit of playing under the high-tempo rules if the S14 ELVs. I havent seen the Boks playing so freely in years, it was great to watch too.

• 203.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:22 pm

  #198 Puma:
  I met BG Williams in Upington!

• 204.saffa_guy:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:22 pm

  Ziyaad,

  Only one way to compliment those three posts: Mashallah

  Fantastic post.

  You’re the Slamse Pissant

• 205.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:22 pm

  #193 canafunk:

  Yes, he is safe. Too safe for my liking.

  His box kicks are so frequent they ruin any momentum his team may gain. And often he has kicked out on the full. Good player, no doubt. But not outstanding.

• 206.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:23 pm

  #190 BlackPanther: you should respect all opposition put in front of you, that way you’re not caught being complacent. What a team has done 5 years ago or 100 years does not dictate how a team will do today or tomorrow.

  #189 stodders: the IRB directive on refereeing is part of the ELV package designed to create a fast game (like the one NZ and Aus play). It absolutely killed the Boks on tour, and England against Australia and its killing the GP as a rugby spectacle. We all know who pushed for the ELVs because they caught the plane home together from France last year. If you can’t beat em, change the rules seems to be the mantra.

• 207.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:23 pm

  #204 saffa_guy:

  Shukran.

• 208.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:24 pm

  #190 BlackPanther: Lets hope its the dream final in 2011 Boks against the All Blacks nothing in world rugby can get better than that for a South African. By the way I always support your team if the Boks are not playing them. I have all my years and still do.

• 209.XhosaKid:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:24 pm

  #44 rangerman: I have just done that, its a brilliant article

• 210.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:24 pm

  #202 BlackPanther: how do we have a rules advantage? we like the old rules, its you guys who want the new ones and this new ridiculous refereeing.

• 211.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:26 pm

  England are going to be in the doldrums for the next 10 years.

  They blame ELVs when the reality is they have plodders and their lack of skills have shown them up.

  England are still riding on their gravy train since after 2003…its dipping very fast.

• 212.PissAnt:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm

  #204 saffa_guy:

  

  Yes it was a very well put argument.

  To the point, no frills, great use of external examples and quite simplistic in nature.

  One of the better points I have read in a while

• 213.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm

  #206 Big Hit:

  Your team is ****…live up to it mate. You are making poor excuses.

• 214.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:27 pm

  #197 Dumb Supporter:

  15. Lee Byrne – Wales / Rory Lamont – Scotland
  14. Sean Lamont – Scotland / Paul Sackey – England
  13. Brian O’Driscoll – Ireland / Tom Shanklin – Wales / Dan Hipkiss – England
  12. Luke Fitzgerald – Ireland / Gavin Henson – Wales
  11. Shane Williams – Wales / Rob Kearny – Ireland
  10. Stephen Jones – Wales / ?
  9. Mike Phillips – Wales / Mike Blair – Scotland
  8. Andy Powell – Wales / Luke Narraway – England
  7. David Wallace – Ireland / John Barclay – Scotland
  6. James Haskell – England / Ryan Jones
  5. Paul O’ Connell – Ireland / ?
  4. Donncha O’Callaghan – Ireland / Alun Wyn-Jones – wales
  3. Euan Murray – Scotland / ?
  2. Huw Bennett – Wales / Ross Ford – Scotland
  1. Andrew Sheridan – England / Gethin Jenkins – Wales

• 215.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:28 pm

  #210 Big Hit:

  November has arrived…where is England??

• 216.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:28 pm

  #206 Big Hit: No its not. I suggest you do your homework. D- for effort.

• 217.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:29 pm

  #197 Dumb Supporter: lol. I know for sure the 8 will be Powell and if Sheridan is not injured 3. I would have to think about the rest. Maybe Big Hit and Stodders have ideas. I think a lot of the players will come from the Welsh side a few from Scotland and Ireland. Not so sure about England but you never know they may have a great game this Sat and in the 6 Nations and that will change. But its a Scottish and Kiwi coach thats coaching Wales.

• 218.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:29 pm

  #217 Puma: Sheridan 1 not 3

• 219.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:29 pm

  #209 XhosaKid: ja, old ziyaad is being coy though.

  methinks he is a journo. in fact i seem to remember him saying as much once here on keo. could be wrong.

  anyhoo, i will look out for his work in future.

  maybe a ziyaad.com could do well? keo and ziyaad could have debates like the one between zuma and shilowa in the sunday papers. not debates but “opinion pieces”

  

• 220.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:29 pm

  #205 ziyaad: Let me also add my respect for your posts. Easy to read and well argued.

• 221.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:29 pm

  #210 Big Hit:

  England got SCREWED!!

• 222.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:30 pm

  #192 rangerman:

  He squealed, whinged, complained. Whatever word best suits your delicate self best, Im happy with too. But he provoked for the exact reaction that he received. Why on Earth do you think Smit targetted Thorn – for exactly that reason !

• 223.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:30 pm

  #214 stodders: Sackey was very poor on Sat cant see him making the squad.

• 224.canafunk:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:30 pm

  Out of the last 4 Games I am happy with 2 so it’s not all that bad

• 225.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:31 pm

  #214 stodders: Not many Englishmen, but is that a surprise?

• 226.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:31 pm

  #206 Big Hit:

  England way of showing respect is to roll over and pull their shorts down.

• 227.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm

  sa 156/5
  ..
  hey,
  i thought we’re only playing the aussies next month!

• 228.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm

  #214 stodders: we love paul sackey, LOVE HIM!!!! please please please bring him over.

  i think the beast has something to show him on hard fields

• 229.klippies101:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm

  i dont agree i think the abs will whip england by at least 40 points

• 230.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm

  #223 Puma: What do you think of the team? I have put first choice and back up in there. I think it is a fair reflection of the form of players right now. However, it will all change by next year i imagine, with loss of form and injuries taking their toll.

• 231.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:32 pm

  #203 Pietman: That must have been great Piet.

• 232.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:33 pm

  #213 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: your team isn’t much better, you got out of jail the other night bigtime

  #216 stodders: yes it is, Kaplan even said himself.

  #222 BlackPanther: Smit didn’t target Thorn, Thorn took Conrad Jantjes around the head so Smit gave him a nudge for it and Thorn went overboard and spear tackled him. But as Smit pointed out, its not the first time the IRB have been lenient on NZ, remember 2005.

• 233.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:34 pm

  #226 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: the big game was in Marseille last year, you guys went home in tears just like 2003 and 1995

• 234.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:34 pm

  #194 Big Hit:

  Why on Earth I would ask a twat who marks his every comment with a childish smiley-face, is quite beyond me. Youre a fraud and by no means a true rugby fan. Objectivity is what marks out the fan who loves rugby against one who uses it as an opportunity to spout bile. You are clearly in the latter category.

• 235.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:34 pm

  “It is why 2008 will always be the season of missed opportunity. The brilliant win against England only emphasized how much was missed in the Tri Nations.”

  Keo, you definitely missed England in 3 Nations. New Zealand would never let you run riot, guys. Australia, usually, too. Yes, SA won brilliantly in Joburg, hats off, but still they lost series 1-2, including game at home.

  You (and many like you) seem to think when South Africa are progressing (and they are indeed) others don’t. If you have not noticed Australia have improved massively under Deans and SA will have to try very very hard to beat them next time. The same Deans, by the way, whose Crusaders have won twice as much S12/S14 titles than all Aussie/SA teams combined. It’s not a shambolic England down there. The same applies to New Zealand – they have lost many fist choice players but still many young guys coming in and,considering, what they have done to the Boks already, except no respite.

  Let’s see how SA teams will do in coming S14. At least there won’t be Crusaders steamrolling all before them so easily without Deans and Carter.

  Your theory about SA talent superiority over Aus/Nz will have any kind of credibility only if SA team wins this tournament. Or, at the very least, they manage to get more than just meagre one team in the semis. Not to mention winning 3 Nations over “overrated” ABs.

  Before that it’s just chestbeating after kicking the *** of currently absolutely woeful team up north.

• 236.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:34 pm

  #222 BlackPanther: ag, maybe thorne targetted the best captain on the planet?

  but you see it your way, i will see it mine.

  i am not delicate. we can play name-calling if you want.

  shall we start with drunk or wife beater?

• 237.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:34 pm

  #214 stodders: #217 Puma: On paper, it looks like a very, very competitive team – except maybe for flyhalf.

  Like I said, the biggest issue is whether the coaching team can get the guys to play for each other – like the Boks surely will.

• 238.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:35 pm

  #232 Big Hit:

  We were poor but who won?

  We have a very young side…who won?

  we have a new coach….who won?

  We have no front row…who won?

  ‘See you in november thats where the true test is’…where is your englsh team?

• 239.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:35 pm

  #234 BlackPanther: and you are objective? if objective means one-eyed, pro-NZ and anti-everyone else, then I’m happy not to be objective by your standards.

• 240.saffa_guy:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:36 pm

  #228 rangerman:

  As long as little Shano lines up against big JPP, I’m happy.

  As you said a few weeks ago: Step, step, step, BANG!

• 241.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:36 pm

  #233 Big Hit:

  Sorry…did england win anything last year. Tell me what trophies do you have in your cabinet?

• 242.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:37 pm

  #238 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: We won and went on to the World Cup final. Your boys met the ABs in the airport and watched the final on an aeroplane whilst crying into your fosters

• 243.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:37 pm

  #219 rangerman:

  I’m not a journalist. Just really love the game.

  #220 stodders:

  Thanks.

• 244.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:37 pm

  #237 Dumb Supporter: I am not too familiar with many of the backs, but the forwars look impressive – capable of matching the boks man for man.

• 245.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:37 pm

  #232 Big Hit: It wouldn’t be the first time Kaplan was wrong.

  I’ll write this so you can be clear:

  At the start of the northern hemisphere season the IRB came out and told referees to be stricter with attacking players going off their feet at the breakdown.

  It was not part of the new ELVs. There are no breakdown laws introduced as part of the ELVs being trialled in the NH.

  I suggest you go and read up about it, as it is clear that you have little idea of what you are talking about.

• 246.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:38 pm

  #241 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: What did Australia win last year? (besides the ELV campaign)

• 247.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:38 pm

  #210 Big Hit:

  The Sth Hem have been playing under Nthern Hem rules the whole tour. Oh go on, tell me black is white and never the twain shall meet.

  Its called credibility. Your credibility rating is ZERO

• 248.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:38 pm

  #232 Big Hit:

  By the way…we let the french into the game.

  Burgess pass caused flutters in many wallaby supporters hearts….not the french.

• 249.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:39 pm

  #234 BlackPanther: If you use the word twat, you let him know he has got to you.

• 250.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:39 pm

  #192 rangerman: Yes they got to the final to see their team get beat by the Boks.

  Tell that BP kiwi for calling John a pig yesterday to Big Hit. How would he have felt if he was spear tackled and had to have op after it. Never knew kiwis to be so nasty. Maybe I wont support their team anymore if thats how they are.

• 251.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm

  #246 Big Hit:

  You answer a question with a question…first sign of resignation!!!

• 252.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm

  #245 stodders: tell that to Kaplan, he gave interviews on it prior to the summer tests. He says the IRB want a fast game and will ref strictly with regards to the breakdown to supplement the new laws. Thats why England got pinged out of it in NZ and the Boks against Wales and Scotland.

• 253.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm

  #240 saffa_guy:

  eish, almost as good as the sight of bakkies reeling in an olympic sprinter with JPP (again, man this guy is incredible) delivering the sledgehammer.

• 254.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm

  #251 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: you’re Australian, first sign of deportation

• 255.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:40 pm

  #242 Big Hit:

  DID YOU WIN ANYTHING????

• 256.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:41 pm

  #242 Big Hit: Yep, you still lost though. Still a loser like the rest of us, so i wouldn’t go beating that chest of yours too much.

• 257.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:41 pm

  #254 Big Hit:

  We were the bright ones…we left england!!

• 258.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:42 pm

  #248 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: nonsense, Skrela coughed up 15 points and your pack got monstered again once a decent ref took control

• 259.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:42 pm

  #252 Big Hit: Big Hit,

  The key word here is “supplement”. I suggest you look up its meaning. Once again I will say that the IRB directive to police the breakdown is not an ELV. It is an existing law that the IRB have asked refs to police properly.

  Comprende?

• 260.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:43 pm

  What started off as a gentlemanly debate … IS NOW A BRAWL!

  Yippee!

• 261.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:43 pm

  #257 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: lol an aussie claiming to be bright, whatever next

• 262.4man:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:43 pm

  Keo…you structure your post to cause contoversy.
  Most Kiwi’s are less verbose about how good their team is than the average Saffa.
  I agree the Boks have played stop start since the world cup, I believe this is because we have too much rugby now, the guys DO NOT play to their best at every game, very often its “just another day at the office”…but that is professionalism.

  Wales to beat the Aussies on the weekend.
  England to get another hammering (for some time yet I’m afraid)

• 263.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm

  #167 BlackPanther:
  lol, think there are alot of truth to that, the parallels in captaincy at least, between Smit and Fitzpatrick are very strong. the latter was a master tho, my god i have never seen such an innocent face.

• 264.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm

  #250 Puma: hopefully we have moved past that now. time will tell.

  #248 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: how did lote play? i missed the game unfortunately.

• 265.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm

  #250 Puma: Puma,

  Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! If I were to form an opinion of South African’s based purely on the comments by people on this blog, it wouldn’t be a particularly good one. I suggest you don’t base your opinions on a country or its people by the few who blog on here.

• 266.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm

  #243 ziyaad: Ziyaad, I finally read your “Heavy” dissertation early in the thread.

  You clearly put a massive lot of thought into your analysis and it is a very good piece of writing.

  Some of the things you say are absolutely spot-on, some of the things you say I differ with. Frankly, I’m not going to do a Thesis on those, like you

  Firstly let me say that I had always been a critic of Jake but was eventually quite thankful that he delivered the World Cup. If our current colourful coach, Snorman, can deliver a similar feat I’ll be equally thankful….. yet I also reserve the right to be critical of him and his methods.

  The problems I have with some of the assumptions you make is as follows:

  1) You blame some of the established or senior players for some results this year, YET Peter de Villiers was and continues to be the one picking them in HIS line-up, time after time.

  2) Show me the alternatives for these players that need to be replaced…. Bekker for Matfield, being a good example…. man, Beller is not even in the same school let alone the same class as Matfield.

  3) A couple of strange selections was made by Snorman…. which cost us dearly at stages this year.

  4) The Bokke have been suffering under both Jake and Snor with the following and it still is not addressed:

  4.1 Ground Ball possession – wrong combination and balance in the loosies – no fetcher

  4.2 We’ve been back peddling in the scrums as a result of a sub-standard front row, especially Tight Head…. and a weak Forwards coach (Gert Smal under Jake and now Gary Gold under Snorman).

  4.3 Our backline has been getting slow ball from the scrummie…. and loopy passes to boot with Januarie there.

  4.4 Incessant kicking… up-and-unders galore and no real appreciation for proper counter attack.

  4.5 We have too little actual possession of the ball per match, we always have less than 45% possession.

  4.6 We suck the hindmost *** in the territory stakes in every game as well.

  5) A Settled Fly Half is needed, hopefully Ruan will fulfil this role now – Snorman himself did not know what the hell he wanted for this crucial position.

  6) Game plan or battle plan…. there seems to be none.. or none distinguisable….. and we fail to have a plan B and C….. well that was one of Jake’s problems as well.

  7) Politics in SA and SA Rugby…….. it needs to stop……… the Watsons….. the quota issues…………. the Khompela’s…… the Emblem issues…. and the supporters who are devided into different camps.

  Media stupidity……… get Mr Snor a proper Media man, for goodness sakes !

  So, in summation…. yes we could be rulers of World Rugby, yes we should rightfully be…. but we need to sort out the following:

  1) Get our scrums right…. starting with a better tight head and better forwards coaching.

  2) Pick a more balanced loosie combo – Brussouw at 6 as uot and out ground ball specialist, Schalla at 7 for his strong carrying of the ball and tireless tackling, a solid no 8 with hands of gold a la Juan Smith.

  3) Select a scrummie that can clear quickly with a decent pass, both directions, not run 3 steps sideways and then pass a loopy pass.

  4) Let Ruan settle in the No 10 spot…. let’s get some continuity going there.

  5) Please let there be less aimless kicking and less use of the up-and-under with better focus on counter attack by the back 3.

  6) Work on the mental preparedness and man management aspects of the team….. the Brain is the strongest muscle in our bodies !

  7) Let us, as supporters get united in stead of being devided over silly issues…… away with POLITICS !!

  Go Bokke, go Coachie………… do it for us !

• 267.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:44 pm

  #259 stodders: yeah but its part of the same drive to introduce a new style of game, the style of game pushed for by Wallabie and his mates. It doesn’t suit us in the nh and it doesn’t suit the Boks either. It ruins a player like Schalk Burger. But as long as they get their way I guess you’re happy.

• 268.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm

  #247 BlackPanther: You have lost credibility here by calling John Smit a pig yesterday on the kiwi thread to Big Hit. Go take a hike. Big Hit never speaks like that he has respect. You sound like you have a problem mate. Remember after the world cup. One of your team got drunk and smashed up cars in a London hotel and what about the wife beating that went after the world cup in your country? Don’t ever call John Smit the best captain in the world that has huge respect for everyone a pig. John has manners and respect all the time he deserves that back. That Thorn guy spear tackled him and he had to have a op after was out of the rest of the 3N and Thorn only gets one week? Thats the kiwis for you as they had to give him the ban. It was their own so he only gets a week John has to get a op. Not fair. Go to your own blog if you want to come here and name call our captain.

• 269.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm

  #258 Big Hit:

  Thats his own fault!!

  One cant get browny points for missed opportunities!!

• 270.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:45 pm

  #261 Big Hit: He’s certainly got an edge on IQ over you it would seem. At least he knows his existing laws from his ELVs!

• 271.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:47 pm

  #262 4man: howdy 4man, i answered you on the other thread mate.

  trip was great but like a typical durban softy, i picked up the flu.

  durbs is cooking today, huge thunderstorm on the way!

• 272.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:47 pm

  #268 Puma: Puma,

  Big Hit, respect? Oh come on now. He shows South Africa respect, yes, but he knows he is in the minority. If you want to take the moral high ground, you would ask him to be respectful to ALL teams and nationalities, not just the ones he chooses!

• 273.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:47 pm

  #255 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  the anthems?

• 274.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:47 pm

  #264 rangerman:

  That France/Aus game was the scrappiest, most disjointed, most unstructured, horrible game I’ve ever had the misfortune to watch.

  Was a disgrace to rugby.

  Craig Joubert was floundering.

• 275.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:48 pm

  #267 Big Hit:

  You right it does not suit plodders and un skilled players.

  If you really want to know rugby has always been evolving and will continue to do so.
  If rugby really wants to improve they should go back to the laws in place in the 80′s. they were a lot simpler.

• 276.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:49 pm

  #268 Puma: I remember Smit crushing French captain’s Thion larinx with an elbow not so long ago. Now he says it was not as bad as landing on own backside. Go figure.

• 277.4man:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:50 pm

  #271 rangerman: Whats the flu…a hussy from Edinburgh?

  Is there an offshore blowing in Gods country?

  Glad to see you’re home safe, missed you in London.

• 278.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:50 pm

  #274 Dawn:

  Craig Joubert got man of the match. he killed anything that game could have been.

  Players were to scared to do anything with the ball in case joubert blew his whistle.

• 279.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:50 pm

  #267 Big Hit: You are being silly.

  The IRB directive is an EXISTING law, that refs are being told to apply to the letter to make the breakdown better. It was decided on before the ELVs were brought in.

  The ELVs are not the same as this directive. The ELVs are NEW!!!

  I wonder if you are acting dumb on purpose to get a rise? Surely you can’t be that ignorant?

• 280.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:51 pm

  #275 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  i wasnt born yet
  ..
  will have to take your word for it

• 281.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:51 pm

  #279 stodders: he is not silly, he is “objective neutral” observer, as he claims to be.

• 282.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:52 pm

  #261 Big Hit:

  We won two RWC and pomped the english in everything else.

  How many english won gold medals this olympics?
  You might be competitive against Aus in thiss one!!

• 283.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:52 pm

  #249 stodders:

  The guy is a FRAUD. Twit, Twat, ***. He’s been called many things. He’s a Keo plant created to produce more ‘Hits’ on the site. To be so vehemently anti-AB and then claim objectivity is to prove he is a FRAUD.

  There are other like Rangerman who get all sensitive about certain criticisms (eg ‘Smit squealed like a pig’) but settle down when they realise that there is also respect. We all like being told we have the prettiest girlfriend, no ? Cmon, we ALL love our own team, thats obvious. But its truly pathetic when someone takes on this vitriol with such passion, a 1-way street. Me – I like to see England lose every match (it might be my Scots heritage tho….). But it doesnt stop me loving Johnno, Jonny, Lozza, Guscott etc. Having said that, it wont stop me saying that Johnno and Lozza were filth either, because they were. I love Fitzy but the guy was an absolute mongrel. But why acknowledge solely the negatives ?

  Twit is a complete FRAUD.

• 284.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:52 pm

  #270 stodders: he’d know all about ELVs, his union thought them up

  #269 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: you still got out of jail, France were better than that. but credit for win anyway

  #272 stodders: I’m respectful to all teams as long as they show respect to others.

  #275 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: forwards are not automatically plodders, you don’t understand rugby if you think that.

• 285.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:53 pm

  #265 stodders: How can that BlackPanther call John a pig now tell me that stodders what do you think? Actually I never call people names here I thought that was a disgrace for this kiwi to say that. I speak to a lot of kiwis here and they are not like that at all. John was spear tackled that day had to have a op and this guy says because Thorn throws John down to the ground he makes a noise like a pig? Give me a break stodders really people like that can just go blog on their own blog then. Don’t call our Captain a pig. He is the most respected captain ever. John has impeccable manners and total respect for everyone. He deserves better than that. You know that too and if you side with this BlackPanther that John is a pig then maybe you should go blog on your Scottish thread too.

• 286.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:54 pm

  #267 Big Hit: For the record, the reason teams are being penalised off the park in the GP is because they have been playing illegally for some time, by continually flopping at the breakdown. Wasps are masters at it.

  Now that the laws are being applied correctly by the refs to allow for competition of the ball at the breakdown, the players and coaches, who have become used to the incorrect application of the law, are suffering.

  It’s as simple as that. As soon as players stay on their feet at the breakdown, the refs whistle will be heard less. If anything, I would have thought that this would suit England’s style, as was shown in the QF last year against Oz.

  But once again, you see fit to use what you want to suit your agenda and argument, which is flawed in the extreme.

• 287.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:55 pm

  #283 BlackPanther: I have never reported anyone but I think its time to call Roy to ban you mate. Off you go to your Kiwis thread don’t call John a pig. Have some manners.

• 288.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:56 pm

  #279 stodders: the breakdown used to be down to ref’s interpretation now its overly strict and its ruining rugby.

  #282 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: if England were an Olympic team (and not Britain) we’d have come 4th or 5th in the world. I admire the Aussie olympic team though.

  #283 BlackPanther: I don’t think Fitz was a mongrel. You can’t be turning on your own team now?

• 289.gunther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:56 pm

  #276 Nils: completely different type of incident..

• 290.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:56 pm

  #285 Puma: Puma,

  I don’t think Black Panther should have called John Smit a pig. I have seen far worse names called out on this blog about other players, and about foreign nationals.

  If you want to take issue with John Smit being called a pig, I hope you will take the moral high ground when you see similar names bandied around about anyone.

• 291.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:57 pm

  #250 Puma:

  So the Boks are angels now huh ?

  Cmon.

  Besides, it wasnt a spear tackle. He dropped him after lifting. Spear tackles are when the tackler drives down on the head/neck. Smit landed on his arse. It was dumb play, no doubt. Thorn apologised IMMEDIATELY. But it was no spear tackle.

  Ive yet to see Bakkies Botha apologise once for his repeated head-butts, aka ‘entering the ruck’. The guy is an absolutely tremendous player but also absolute filth. Just like Robin Brooke was. Just like Fitzy. Just like Andy Earl. But dont think your guys are angels and its everyone else are the villains.

• 292.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm

  Bih Hit invariably makes some very good points. I would say he is pretty objective and his bias towards the Boks offsets Stodders bias towards the ABs.

  i have one eye on you meneer stodders…

• 293.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm

  #284 Big Hit:

  English forwards are automatic plodders…the old rules allowed them to rest after a thirty metre back pass into the 22 and a kick up forward of 40 metres…they would walk that in 5 minutes.

• 294.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm

  #272 stodders: Who do you respect stodders? You seem to be siding with this BlackPanther that has no manners what so ever.

• 295.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:58 pm

  #286 stodders: The Currie Cup was reffed differently much more lenient and a much better spectacle for it. Why should we suffer because of the IRB’s commercial interests and the wants of Aus/Nz?

  they’re going to shoot themselves in the foot anyway, making the game better for 2 countries at the expense of the rest will backfire

• 296.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:59 pm

  #288 Big Hit: Now you’ve gone full circle.

  You’ve complained in the past that refs don’t apply the letter of the law at the breakdown. You have cited this on numerous occassions as being the reason NZ get off scott free.

  Now that the refs are applying the letter of the law, and the contest for possession is fair, you cry foul. Who do you want to blame now? How about the players and coaches. For it is they that are not playing to the laws, not the ref.

  You really are a work of art sometimes.

• 297.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:59 pm

  #292 cab: He’s on the run now though cab. Watch him run!

• 298.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 14:59 pm

  #289 gunther: Really so different? I mean Smit took out opposite player by hitting him in the throat while he tried to tackle him – Thion could not eat for almost a week and speak for 2 weeks after that.

• 299.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:00 pm

  #288 Big Hit:

  I think you might have guessed that one…I have heard it that aus beat england by one gold medal.

• 300.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:00 pm

  #290 stodders:

  oh delicate souls.

  The emphasis was on the SQUEALING.

  As Tana Umaga once said of rugby – ‘its not a game of tiddlywinks’.

  Harden up ! Rugby has cleaned up its act SO much, but do we really want it to be 100% sanitised ?

• 301.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:00 pm

  #294 Puma: Puma,

  Like I said, I don’t think BP should have called Smit a pig. I think he should apologise, but who am i to force him. All i was saying is that there have been worse things said on here by people that you enjoy talking to. Just bare it in mind.

• 302.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:00 pm

  #291 BlackPanther:

  yeah but i dont think Bakkies was as bad as the great AB ever, Colin Meads was horrific?!

• 303.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm

  #290 stodders:
  agree

• 304.Blah:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm

  #15 ziyaad: #16 ziyaad: #18 ziyaad:
  Disagree with a few things in your ‘articles’. Realise it’s all opinion but thought I’d respond anyway.
  First. Using individual instances in certain WC games (the ball bounced like this, or the player did that) is unfair and dishonest. You use these to try prove that the Boks were simply lucky to win the WC and the hard work put in over the previous 4 years had nothing to do with it. Frankly that disgusts me. “We won the world cup, so what?” Ha. Tell that to a Kiwi supporter mate. He’ll tell you you’re an ungrateful sod. [Actually, he'd probably back you up!!!]
  All that aside, if you were trying to be truly objective and thorough you would have acknowledged that a lucky bounce of the ball helped Januarie to his try and us to an historic win. Not taking aside his opportunism or skill, but it was still a lucky bounce of the ball. That’s rugby! How much worse our 2008 3N season would have been if we’d lost that!!! There are instances in nearly every game which swing it one way or the other.
  In quoting stats, you also fail to acknowledge that during 2004 and 2005, the 3 games we lost in the 3N were by 2, 4, and 4 points respectively. What a difference a “bounce of the ball” or “or players foot in touch” would have done to those results and our overall winning percentage. If you’re gonna use instances in play to prove how lucky we were in the WC, why not use the same method for the last 4 or 5 or 10 years??
  My point is, if you’re analysing something to try back your argument, at least be honest and analyse everything equally. Not select games.
  Second. You talk about WC players not being motivated. Citing JdV and Adi as examples. Motivating players is the job of the coaching staff. If the player doesn’t respond, you drop them. JW did that to Matfield early on – seemed to me it worked?
  Third. FdP is over-rated? Really? Well it’s your opinion I guess but myself and many top journo’s and players the world over rate him very highly.

  My two cents. Oh, and a couple of graphs or some 3D pie charts would have gone down well!!

• 305.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:01 pm

  #297 stodders:
  lol, have not laughed so hard in a longtime. Puma is the hell-in with BP.
  better do some work.

• 306.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:02 pm

  #296 stodders: I don’t remember ever complaining about going off the feet at the breakdown, being offside is a different matter.

• 307.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:03 pm

  #268 Puma:

  Piet

  Van

  Zyl

• 308.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:03 pm

  #300 BlackPanther: Umaga plays with handbags, he’s hardly a tough nut

• 309.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:04 pm

  #291 BlackPanther: Get glasses. He lifted him and dropped him head down first. Lucky John never cracked his head open. You should say sorry to all Bok supporters here for calling our captain a pig. You are a disgraceful little boy with no manners what so ever. Is going out of th 1/4 final of the world cup still having its toll on you? Jeez come on now. Their are some really great kiwis that come here and I have lots of respect for them we banter but have great chats. Never have I seen such with bad manners like you ever. Grow up.

• 310.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:04 pm

  #295 Big Hit:

  You are wrong there…it will make Fiji, samoa and japan.

  The elv is not introduced to change the essence of rugby it allows a broadening of strategy/game plans for teams who have other strengths than plodding forwards.
  The old laws favour heavy forwards only. The new laws can favour heavy forwards (if fit and skillfull) and backline play. It will be up to a team to stamp their tactic onto that game.

• 311.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:04 pm

  #274 Dawn: well then i am glad i missed it dawnie.

  craig joubert has floundered a few times in my experience.

  #277 4man: no hussy for me

  sorry i missed you man. if it wasnt me ma or my boetie it was my varsity mates i havent seen in years. and cash, she was short!

  there is no wind whatsoever, the mushroom clouds are building and darkness is falling at 3 pm. the black clouds lit by lighting will be following and i will drink beer in my local as the land is lashed by sweet summer rain!

• 312.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:05 pm

  #301 stodders: John Smit is a gentleman, it wasn’t right to call him names as many did in the summer. McCaw and Carter are gentlemen too. Thorn not so much it seems.

• 313.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:05 pm

  #309 Puma:
  nah mate, i think it was just a turn of phrase, he has alot of respect for smit, read above.

• 314.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:05 pm

  #306 Big Hit: Now you change the point of the argument. Unbelievable

• 315.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:05 pm

  #307 BlackPanther: Maybe he should tackle you out of here. I think a ban is coming up for you in a very short time.

• 316.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:06 pm

  #309 Puma:

  Rubbish…sorry mate. his head was nowhere near a blade of grass,

  I do remember seeing a flubber ripple when smit hit the deck.

  If you want to see a spear tackle check gregans or is it Lote’s spear tackle on Mcaw.

• 317.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:07 pm

  #310 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: I don’t think the old laws favour forwards, NZ did quite well and they were not a forwards team. It just didn’t allow teams with poor packs to be the best and rightly so. For all it helps Japan/Fiji it will hurt Georgia, Russia, Italy, Argentina, Ireland, England.. and those countries with world class packs.

• 318.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:07 pm

  #317 Big Hit: it hurts SA too.

• 319.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:07 pm

  #315 Puma: Shall we get pitch forks, torches and start a lynch mob?

  Puma, i think BP has alot of respect for Smit. His posts seem to show this. I have to agree with cab on this one. I feel dirty now.

• 320.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:07 pm

  #313 cab: It was on the kiwi thread yesterday he was speaking to big hit and called John a pig. go and read it. This guy is a child needs to grow up a little and maybe learn some manners. What time is it there by him now anyway 1am or 2am in the morning thats if he is in NZ and still at his computer typing tripe. No respect to him at all. Cant just come here and rubbish our captain.

• 321.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:08 pm

  #284 Big Hit:

  The ELVs were the brainchild of the Nth Hem-heavy IRB.

  The rules themselves are the result of Pierre Villepreux invention. He’s French, as far as I recall.

  The ELVs were trialled in Sth Africa and were known as the ‘Stellenbosch Rules’ before their ELV moniker.

  But, go on, say theyre invented by Aus/NZ. Your complete lack of knowledge of this game of rugby knows no boundaries.

• 322.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:08 pm

  #306 Big Hit: #309 Puma: #310 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: # stodders:

  Is this animal farm you talking about. Which pig is it? Napoleon, Major, Snowball or the mouthpiece of the pigs old squealer. Sounds like there are a few mouthpieces here today.

  Goodday all my friends and foes

• 323.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:08 pm

  #314 stodders: you’ll notice the breakdown reffing is not so strict on offside, or coming in from the side aka McCaw, no its aimed at physical players like Moody and Burger who come in at the right side

• 324.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm

  #300 BlackPanther: ag, kiwis have the least humour about rugby of anyone BP.

  you know it, we know it.

  but its cool, i heard a fair amount of squealing in the after match interview after the 1/4 final semi in 2007.

  guess who was the piggy that time

• 325.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm

  #309 Puma:

  I just checked it was lote who spear tackled Mcaw. Go and check that and compare it to Smit flubber bumper.

• 326.gunther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm

  #291 BlackPanther: apologised immediately – bullsh1t – he did no such thing he raised his hands to the ref. secondly he picked him up without the ball and then dropped him head first just because he didn’t drive hime into the ground doesn’t mean it wasn’t extremely dangerous.

• 327.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm

  #317 Big Hit: When did you start watching rugby? NZ aren’t a forwards team

  All good teams are forwards teams, only some have a backline worth using to keep the opposition guessing.

• 328.XhosaKid:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:09 pm

  #141 Pietman: Ex President Thabo Mbeki, told White to coach and leave politics to him,The President kept his word

• 329.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:10 pm

  #326 gunther: At the next scrum, when the red mist had lifted, he apologised. Rarely, if ever, do you see this on the pitch. Wouldn’t you agree?

• 330.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:10 pm

  #321 BlackPanther: Rod MacQueen was behind many of them, the trialling in SA was a red herring to disguise the fact they were a Aus/NZ ideal. These rules do not suit SA, PDV, Bryan Habana, FDP, Smit and others have already attested to that.

• 331.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm

  #325 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: It was Thorn. dont you start walla. You have been behaving of late!! lol.

• 332.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm

  I would like to invite you all to Croke Park, so that we can all learn the true meaning of sportmanship. This finger pointing is doing noone any good.

• 333.hater:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm

  #179 fish out of water: This is the example of the kind of posts Ziyaad was talking about. Negative. negative. negative.

• 334.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm

  #323 Big Hit: It is about players not staying on their feet at the breakdown and sealing the ball off, making it slower or unplayable. Nothing to do with being offside either. You are muddling yourself I think.

• 335.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:11 pm

  # stodders:

  “Bare” it in mind??????? And here I thought you were perfect.

• 336.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:12 pm

  #327 stodders: they played expansive rugby under the old rules using their backs to great effect, so Wallabie’s assertion that the old rules favoured forwards is nonsense, they just meant you couldn’t get away with a poor pack. If all Aussies want to see is backs continously running around they should watch 7s.

• 337.gunther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:12 pm

  #316 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: he inverted the player – whatever piece of anatomy hits the ground first is irrelevant..

• 338.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:13 pm

  #329 stodders: unlike Umugger and Me’llspearu who didn’t even apologise after the game and blamed Woodward instead

• 339.hater:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:13 pm

  #304 Blah: Ziyaad wins. Your argument sucks.

• 340.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:13 pm

  #331 Puma:

  

  I am up late tonight for once. Just making my scarce presence felt tonight.

• 341.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:14 pm

  #328 XhosaKid: I guess and suggest you read my post in #266…… after critisizing me early in the thread…

• 342.XhosaKid:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:14 pm

  #155 canafunk: we always had all of those, but we have won the Tri-Nations twice in 13 years

• 343.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:14 pm

  #326 gunther: watch this and put on your reading glasses.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZchPz1xQII

  I wonder if Smit really have his head where we usually have lower part of the back or just arse. If it’s a head, then it’s not our fault.

• 344.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:15 pm

  #332 Irish Devil: Hi Irish Devil agree. Yes there is true sportsmanship there. We could all learn.

• 345.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:15 pm

  #320 Puma:
  read 167, for the kiwis to even compare another player to Fitzy, better known as God downunder, is a big compliment. but i did not see the ‘pig’ chirp, lol, was it as in ‘squealing like a pig’…i am surprised smit complained, but its exactly what fitzpatrick would have done and he managed the ref like a pro.

• 346.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:15 pm

  #336 Big Hit:

  I am implying that plodding forwards can get away with looking good in the old laws.

  Rugby is all about forwards and backs and the best team ie AB have got the combination and balance right.

• 347.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:15 pm

  #340 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: Ja “Vaalseun”….. how the hell are you ??

• 348.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:17 pm

  #320 Puma:

  Am I showing you disrespect ? Or your Captain ?

  Perhaps if you chose to read THIS thread, you might be aware of how much respect I HAVE for John Smit. I backed him when a multitude of Safas wouldnt “Botha is better….Brits is better….Bismarck is better”.

  Dont talk about respect. The last 2 Managers and Captains to land on NZ shores – White and J.Muller; PdV and Smit – ALL called the AB Captain “a cheat”. This IN New Zealand ! I found that absolutely shocking and a complete lack of respect. Cheating is something Hansie Cronje did. McCaw pushes the boundaries of the laws, but for an opposing Captain – sorry, TWO of them – to call the opposite “a cheat”, that is completely distasteful.

  Get off your pedestal, Puma. Im just a derranged rugby fan calling your Captain a whinger (ie ‘squealed like a pig’). That is not the same as your National Captains and Managers, resperesentatives of your country, landing in another country and immediately calling the home Captain “a cheat”.

• 349.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:17 pm

  cheers all

  beer time for an entrepreneur (networking i call it).

• 350.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:17 pm

  #340 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: lol. How long with the new name change?

• 351.gunther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:18 pm

  #329 stodders: #329 stodders: you saw that? heard him say sorry?

• 352.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:18 pm

  #345 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: you don’t understand that not everyone has to be quick and that big forwards have skill. Aus had great forwards in 99, some big and slow but skilled too

• 353.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:19 pm

  #346 grootblousmile:

  I am well and you?

  How is family?

• 354.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:20 pm

  #349 Puma:

  

  I saw BIG HIT on the blog today so I thought I would do some rubbing in.
  Sorry BIG HIT.

  I have to make the most of my opportunities! I could teach skrela a thing or two.

• 355.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:21 pm

  #352 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: Brother…. family’s all well…. and your Wife and little one ??

• 356.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:21 pm

  #328 XhosaKid:
  Yip, good move by Pres. Mbeki that.#338 Big Hit: I must admit, you are one of the gentlemen on this site, always backing your side without being disrespectful to the opposition.
  Wish I could do that….good on you.
  #343 Puma:
  I am with you, that ‘pig post’ was really not on, disgraceful actually..
  Imagine you going onto SilverFern (not that you would want to for any reason) and call the AB captain that.

• 357.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:22 pm

  #347 BlackPanther: Yes when you call our Captain a pig. Just to think I was the one here all week saying that it should have been McCaw that should have been IRB player of the year and not that Welsh guy. Me supporting your captain and you call ours that is so respected a pig. Jeez. I take my words back then. Let that Welsh guy be IRB player of the year. Not going to support the Ab’s if their supporters come here and call our captain names. I have supported your team almost my whole life when they are not playing the Boks to hear a kiwi talk like that does not sound right. I have kiwi friends and they are so humble and really great guys. Anyway I will leave it no use getting angry any more. I never call people names here so maybe I just cant understand it.

• 358.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:24 pm

  #330 Big Hit:

  Everything is a ‘red herring’ to you, as long as it fits the bile.

  Every result has a pre-made excuse, as long as it fits the bile.

  Villepreux was personally the strongest advocate for thre ‘short-arm’ pens. He’s French. My cousin is a coach of a Div II French club. He has personally talked to Villepreux about it.

  The rules were trialled for TWO YEARS in Stellenbosch.

  Oh, I forget. 2 years ? red herring, it NEVER HAPPENED. A bit like the Yanks beating the Russians to the moon. “the flag was waving….theres no gravity in space !”

• 359.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:24 pm

  #355 Pietman: Yes can you imagine. I wont let it go really I had a good go at this BlackPanther so did ranger the two of us told him what we thought. He can just go and blog on the SilverFern blog. He wont find it as good as this one. None are. Thats why they all come here.

• 360.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:25 pm

  #354 grootblousmile:

  They are good. Little one turned two a couple of weeks ago.

  Time does not wait for anyone!!

• 361.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:26 pm

  #348 rangerman: Cheers ranger enjoy.

• 362.Blah:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:27 pm

  #339 hater: Thanks hater. A mature post if I ever saw one.

• 363.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:27 pm

  #353 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: poor skrela tho, he must have been gutted

  #357 BlackPanther: come on, the most watched Rugby World Cup of all time with upsets galore and the rules get changed? who was complaining during the tournament about the rugby? Aus and NZ fans. You do the math.

  The ELVs were supposed to come in after 2003 but since Aus made the final they were shelved.

• 364.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:28 pm

  #356 Puma: You never call people names here on the blog, I however call too many people too many names here on the blog.

  But I see you got out of your passive-resistive stance into a bloody good aggressive-assertive stance just now !

  Go my Ingelse maat, bliksem hom !!

• 365.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:28 pm

  #356 Puma:

  Delicate wee soul. Perhaps if you read all my comments you might see how much respect I have for Smit. He’s an outstanding Captain. An excellent scrummager. A leader of men. A World Champion. Ive dined with him, he’s a true gentleman too.

  He also squealed like a pig. Eek, sorry. He whinged. Did I say ‘he IS a pig’ ? I dont recall saying that anywhere. But he whinged, thats for sure. Did Fitzy ‘squeal like a pig’ after Johan chewed his ear ? damn right he did, he wanted the guy sent off because that would have helped win the game.

  Oh no, I just called the AB Captain ‘a pig’.

  er……no I didnt.

• 366.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:30 pm

  #362 Big Hit:

  Too true!

  But if he is mentally strong he can write that performance off and learn from it and move on.

• 367.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:30 pm

  I think the Southern Hemisphere have much better teams and players than the Northern Hemisphere. We often think, or should I say wish for a miracle every now and then. Miracles do happen, but not as quick as we want them to. I have to be honest and admit that SH is way ahead. Maybe next year!!!!

• 368.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:31 pm

  #347 BlackPanther: Well the whole world say Richie is a cheat if you want to know. Everyone thinks he cheats and gets away with it. Then I supported him this week saying he should have been IRB player of the year and not that Welsh guy!!!! Never will I support Richie again ever if this kiwi supporters call our captain a pig. Go blog on your silverfern blog. It must be so much better there for you as you wont have to put us with us saffas. Off you go. It must be way, way past your bed time anyway.

• 369.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:31 pm

  #359 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: Jeeeez, kids get very busy at round about age 2…… the “terrible two’s” they call it !

  Whassahappening with your plans for up Zim way you shared with us when we had the drinks together ??

• 370.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:32 pm

  booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring!!

  can we change the subject now?

• 371.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:33 pm

  #335 Dawn: bugger

• 372.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:34 pm

  #369 asha1: I second that. Howdy Asha. Cold and miserable here. How’s the weather down south? This climate change thing is really having an effect on this world and hmmmm some people.

• 373.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:34 pm

  #368 Puma: You are becoming like big hit. Completely deaf.

• 374.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:35 pm

  #369 asha1:
  no, i’m not booing!
  the word that didnt come out is boring!!

  jeez, wish i could go home right now
  and
  drink myself into a coma!

  much better than having to read all this k@k!

• 375.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:35 pm

  #368 grootblousmile:

  I am waiting as the politics have gone worse and dont look like getting any better in the next 3-6 months. then if the politicians resolve their differences then there will be another 3-6 months for anything of substance will happen.

  I am keeping my options open…miracles do happen!!

• 376.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:35 pm

  #350 gunther: I saw him motion towards Smit. Smit afterwards said he did. I believe Smit.

• 377.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:35 pm

  #372 Nils: Nils is your weather in Latvia just as bad as ours here in Cork?

• 378.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:35 pm

  Time for a shower and the bed sheets.

• 379.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:36 pm

  #362 Big Hit:

  Utter ****. They were trialled in Stellenbosch from 2004-2006. Its an IRB directive. The IRB is controlled by Syd Millar (Irish) and Poms. Fact, not opinion.

  The 3 coaches behind the rules were Villepreux (France), Richie Dixon (Scot) and Ian McIntosh (Sth African). Rod McQueen was a consultant.

  1 Aussie, no Kiwis. But Nth Hem influences with their fingerprints everywhere.

  Actually, I think the Boks will potentially be immense under the ELVs. Funny how the Poms are now saying its ‘Aus/NZ self-interests’. So no slef-interest on their behalf keeping the old rules then ?

• 380.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:36 pm

  #371 Irish Devil:
  nice weather today
  couldve been a bit hotter though
  the girls walking passed my window had shorter skirts on yesterday!

• 381.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:36 pm

  Bliksemmmmmm mekaar…. ek haaaat vrede !!

• 382.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:37 pm

  #367 Puma: Jeez Puma, give it a rest.

  BP has clearly stated what he actually said and that he does respect Smith.

  Its becoming embarrissing

• 383.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:37 pm

  #364 BlackPanther: Don’t tell me about Fitzy. He also said his team had something put in their food and all got sick because your team lost to us in the 1995 world cup. No respect to him for talking nonsense like that.

  Now wont speak back to a child anymore because thats what you are you sersious need a lot of growing up to do. Learn manners and respect and maybe you will get it back. I was brought up like that. It must be way past your bed time too.

• 384.gunther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:37 pm

  #375 stodders: fair enough….

• 385.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:37 pm

  #355 Pietman: Come on Piet. Squealed like a pig, is not the same as calling Smit a pig. It was describing his reaction, not him as a person. This is getting out of hand. There was no slight on the character of Smit.

• 386.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm

  #377 Irish Devil: cheers, mate. I do not know about Cork but here is a snow. Wet, although, that means terrible streets. How you are doing? Hopefully no gales? We had one recently.

• 387.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm

  night night all..speak to you later.

  GBS if I am not on later we can chat by email.
  Where is Kwagga these days?

• 388.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm

  #377 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: Yeah….. hope they sort their “****” out up there….. old Bob still feverishly clings to every grain of power he has !

• 389.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm

  #381 Dumb Supporter: He feels like a idiot now because everyone could go and read what he had said now says something else to sound credible. He is a waste of space and time wont every bother speaking to him again. He should be asleep now anyway. That is if he lives in NZ.

• 390.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:38 pm

  #379 asha1: Wow you are one lucky chap. Looking out of my window and can’t see through the rain. It is pelting, so I am gonna pack and go home – to bed.

• 391.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm

  #380 grootblousmile:
  en met daai einste woorde het die anglo boere oorlog begin!

  yes, jou blou moffie
  hoe hang hulle?

• 392.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm

  #374 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:

  Don’t tell me you are coming to live in Zim.

• 393.Rum And Maple:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm

  #366 Irish Devil: Player development in the NH is your problem. Too many SH players in your club teams in crucial positions = result in depth problems.

• 394.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:39 pm

  #386 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: Cheers walla. Good to see you hear again. Enjoy your little one they grow so quick.

• 395.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm

  #385 Nils: It’s good mate. Storming, no snow yet. Any minute now though.

• 396.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm

  #382 Puma: Actually, I don’t think Fitzy ever said that. You made that up didn’t you?

• 397.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm

  #393 Puma: hear = here

• 398.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:40 pm

  #378 BlackPanther: you’ve backed up what I’ve said, why were they trialled in stellenbosch in 2004 rather than what we see today in a global trial. They were due to have a worldwide trial but the Aussies didn’t want them because their rugby was on a high again. This was written by Eddie Butler (welshman) in the Guardian.

  Its in the interest of rugby to keep the old rules. They WERE rugby as we know it, why change them? especially by replacing them with something which provides a worse spectacle.

• 399.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm

  #366 Irish Devil:
  dunno some close games, wales and scotland v close to boks, wales also took AB pretty close, excpet for last 20min, italy took wallabies close, ireland been a bit of a let-down at RWC and this tour, since thought they probably had the strongest side of the lot what with the European cup and munster doing so well.

• 400.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm

  #388 Puma: He doesn’t. He lives in the UK. I think you’re being silly i’m afraid. You’ve blown this up out of all proportion.

• 401.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm

  #386 Wallabie. – The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!: Cheers Walla….

  Old Kwagga is still in Pretoria, he got a moosa promotion and a change of venue at his employers….. so he’s quite busy but everything is fine there !

• 402.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:41 pm

  #394 Irish Devil:

  Come on. Stop it now. You are not in Ireland.

• 403.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm

  #387 grootblousmile:

  Its his henchmen that are seeking safety and so are forcing Mugabe to take a hardline stand.

• 404.KingPaul:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm

  One question-Who are behind the great wins against the Ozzies and the Poms? Peter de Villiers or John Smit???

• 405.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm

  #392 Rum And Maple: Tell the franchises mate – this we all know. Here it is about money and bragging rights. We won the Heinekan Cup – that gives credibility to the club and who actually cares about the status quo of the national team. Sad but true.

• 406.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:42 pm

  #395 stodders: That was true their coach and the captain said that. I never made it up. Stodders if you side with this BlackPanther you can go and blog on the silverfern too. You know they all complained about that the day before the wc was played it was on our radio here and after the wc cup it was complained about again by them. Were you here stodders in 1995? If not then you never heard what we did here.

• 407.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:43 pm

  #397 Big Hit: Once again you cite a NH journalist to back your argument up. Do you have any opinions of your own?

• 408.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:43 pm

  #395 Irish Devil: which province do you support in Ireland?

• 409.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:43 pm

  # Dawn: And you are not in Cape Town.

• 410.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm

  #399 stodders: there was a lot of unwarranted criticism and insults of john smit in the summer, cane was one of the worst. O’Driscoll also received a lot of abuse for being nothing other than a victim of off the ball assault, it was out of order.

• 411.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm

  #390 asha1: Ek beginne sommer by jou te moerrrrr as jy my ‘n moffie noem !

  Die ghoenne hang mooi, afwaarts, lekwar !

• 412.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm

  #397 Big Hit: Do you also fear change? If it were up to people like you, we’d still be dying at 30 and wearing sack cloth.

  Everything evolves. If it doesn’t, it dies.

• 413.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm

  #367 Puma:

  If you make your mind up on what makes a great player based on fans opinions of your beloved Captain, then thank God youre not voting.

  Or perhaps you did – how on EARTH did they otherwise choose Shane Williams for the award ?!

  Cmon, Ryan Jones in contention ?

  Mike Blair better than du Preez, or Kelleher ?

  Parisse is absolutely superb at no8.

  But Williams no1 ? for one try against the Boks ???!!! Please dont say it was for the Grand Slam efforts of Wales. I think the last 4 weeks has put a little context in that.

  Personally Id have Habana as the Worlds Best winger, with Delasau.

  oooh, does that make you feel better, Puma ? As long as we’re patting you on the back its all OK huh.

  (*oink oink*)

• 414.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm

  #408 Irish Devil:

  Oh yes I am.

• 415.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:44 pm

  #407 Nils: The one and only – MUNSTERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

• 416.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:45 pm

  #413 Dawn: No you not

• 417.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:46 pm

  #399 stodders: He is a waste of space and time really. I think I have wasted my time on him today and you too are just siding with him all the time.

• 418.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:46 pm

  #406 stodders: except its not an opinion, he was stating the progression of events since he is in the know as a prominent journalist. I believe it, because he doesn’t seem anti-ELV at all.

• 419.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:46 pm

  #405 Puma: That isn’t v mature now, is it? If i disagree with you, that’s ok.

  Or is it a “with me or against me” moment?

  I remember Colin Meads and Laurie Mains saying things, but i never remember Fitzpatrick saying anything. I could be wrong of course. If you can find me some quotes attributed to Fitzpatrick, i’ll be happy to admit i’m wrong.

• 420.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:47 pm

  #413 Dawn: Why you against me

• 421.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:48 pm

  #415 Irish Devil:

  Wanna fight?

• 422.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:48 pm

  #413 Dawn: I don’t want you money honey, I just want your … never mind.

• 423.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:49 pm

  #405 Puma:
  yeah so what let them complain, who walked off with the spoils in 95 and 07?

  our lot have been crying and whinging about fitzy, kronfeld, meads, cowboy, mccaw since time immemorial. if u lose, thats it i’m afraid.

  am just happy Norling is no longer around (that truly was daylight robbery) and the big question on everyone lips is will Suzy be able to get entry into NZ come 2011?

• 424.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:49 pm

  #417 Big Hit: it was subjective, because it was the progression of events according to him. He deduced his conclusion. Someone else with the same information but with a different agenda could have deduced something completely different.

• 425.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:49 pm

  #420 Dawn: I’m a lover Dawn not a fighter

• 426.Big Hit:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:50 pm

  #411 stodders: I don’t agree with change for the sake of change. I also subscribe to utilitarianism on this, and believe in the greater good for the greater number. The ELVs are putting the desires of the few (or rather two) over the rest of the rugby world.

  catch u later

• 427.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:50 pm

  #410 grootblousmile:
  ok
  ok
  ko o’s sê dan maar “sensitief”!!
  jeez!

• 428.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:50 pm

  #416 Puma: Let go my tjommie…. los die twee broekjag bosbeertjies om in mekaar se holle in te kruip….. dis vir hulle lekwar…. nie ons kerk se mense, die 2 nie !

• 429.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:51 pm

  #424 Irish Devil:

  Why are you always quoting bad songs.

  Don’t you know any good music?

• 430.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:51 pm

  #418 stodders: I cant find you quotes I was on our radio station at the time. How old were you at the 1995 world cup stodders? Just so I know how much you listened about it at the time.

• 431.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:52 pm

  #429 Puma: I = it.#429 Puma:

• 432.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:52 pm

  #423 stodders: It’s always been the case. Changes are introduced to try to improve the game. Go back through the years and check out the reaction to previous changes, and the uproar from the NH over them. We are always the whingers and followers, never the pioneers!

  The ELVs are championed by Bernard Lapasset, the new IRB chairman. If one man is behind their introduction, it is him.

• 433.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:52 pm

  #423 stodders:

  Now. You aren’t gonna let #427 go unpunished, are you?

• 434.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:53 pm

  #428 Dawn:

  Do you like Boys of the county Cork Dawn?

• 435.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:53 pm

  #425 Big Hit:
  and here i thought your “save the islanders” campaign is keeping you very busy!
  what happened?
  had a change of heart?

• 436.Nils:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:54 pm

  #326 gunther: watch this and put on your reading glasses.

  youtube.com/watch?v=GZchPz1xQII

  I wonder if Smit really have his head where we usually have lower part of the back or just arse. If it’s a head, then it’s not our fault.

  Definitely it was utterly stupid what Thorn did and unacceptable, he should have been banned for a longer time. But cmon, Mealamu&Umaga did spear tackle against O’Driscoll, Tuquiri did spear tackle against McCaw – this one clearly was not. More like dumb judo. Anyway, it was stupid act. But then – did not Smit push Torn’s head right before that? What did he expected in return – in the heat of the moment – gentle kiss?

  #417 Puma: About Smit’s complaining.
  Here is a quote: “I was suspended for six weeks after a Test match in France for running into someone with my elbow held in front of me. It was not nearly as nasty as what happened to me last Saturday.”

  “Nearly as nasty” was when Smit hit with his elbow into the Jerome Thion’s throat when he was about to tackle him. Thion could not eat for 5 days and speak for 2 weeks after otherwise honourable Bok captain “nearly as nasty” hit.

  Funny, you require respect from others, in the meantime insulting others (BP or Stodders did insult personally YOU?) and keeping blind eye and deaf ears just like Big Hit. Childlish behaviour.

• 437.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:54 pm

  #428 Dawn: Let me see if I can get the words for you.

• 438.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:54 pm

  #429 Puma: I listened plenty Puma. The Boks won, the Kiwis did whinge about it for a while. That is clear.

• 439.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:54 pm

  #432 Dawn:
  You’ve read in history pages the heroes of great fame
  the deeds they done and battles won And how they made their name.
  But the boys who made the history for the Orange, White and Green,
  were the boys who died in Dublin town in 1916.

  Chorus:
  Meet the boys from Kerry, take the boys from Clare
  From Dublin Wicklow Donegal and the boys from old Kildare
  Some came from a and across the sea, from Boston and New York
  But the boys who beat the Black and Tans Were the boys from County Cork

  In Ireland’s rebel county our heros fought and died
  Tom Barry and his gallant crew filled Irish hearts with pride
  From Skibereen to Bandon, to Bantry by the sea
  Our brave young Michale Collins fought for Ireland’s libery

  Well Cork came us McSweeney, A martyr for to die
  And Wicklow gave us Dwyer in those days now long gone by
  And Dublin gave us Padraic Pearse, McBride and Cathal Brugha.
  And America gaveus De Valera to lead auld Ireland through.

  We seem to be divided but I really don’t know why.
  We had brave men and heroes, and for Ireland they did die.
  Now why not get together and join in unity,
  The North, the South, the East and West Will set old Ireland free.

• 440.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:55 pm

  #382 Puma:

  Fitzy is ON RECORD as saying that the ABs were NOT ‘poisoned’.

  (squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal)

• 441.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:55 pm

  #433 Irish Devil:

  I like Rob Kearney.

  Is he from County Cork?

• 442.Irish Devil:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:55 pm

  My lift is here. Outa here. Bye Dawn

• 443.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:56 pm

  #432 Dawn: Mail for you. Please read

• 444.jacobupstairs:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:56 pm

  Ziyaad….nice analysis….godd to see someone putting aside national passion and talking about the facts….jake white was a very good coach for SA he put structures in place and selected good combinations and allowed them to get experience and improve as a TEAM…however Jake is a man who believes in the winning of rugby matches by inches..and he is right hard won inches do win matches…but I think maby he is too focused on percentages and not so much on flair….PDV seems to me to be the opposite…I think now though that the ballance between structure and flair is about right…especially in the case of the last two big wins Aus/England….I think this group of players can really develop their flair and confidence in decision making…ie knowing when to open up and when to revert to a structure….the ABs do this better than anyone…that is why i believe they consistanly beat us….our players will learn this under PDV and Co…jake laid a solid foundation of conservative play and the squad can do the basics as well if not better than anyone….now the new era will seeing the boks scoring tries…just my humble thoughts

• 445.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:56 pm

  #427 grootblousmile</ die twee van hulle maak my so angry weet nie die word in afrikaans boet. What a day gbs. I have spent it on daar twee.

• 446.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:57 pm

  #422 cab:
  Don’t talk about Norling!
  How he jumped with delight as he blew the final whistle after Heson’s kick 8 minutes into injury time!

  Fitzpatrick taking a dive, clutching his ear, as if Joost hit him with an elbow in the WC final ’95, the ref just ran past him shaking his head.
  Talking about cheats….

  Hayden was it, against Wales, who hit the deck against Wales as if pushed out of the line-out, giving the AB’s the winning penalty.

  No, they know every trick in the book, those AB’s.

  But the Suzy story took the cake, and as Puma says, Fitz sang in the front choir on that one, his moaning was all over the newspapers….

• 447.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:58 pm

  #444 Puma: Best you go grab yourself a beer and chill out.

  As for you GBS, cowardice of the highest order.

• 448.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 15:59 pm

  #418 stodders:

  Absolutely 100% spot on accurate.

  (*oink*)

• 449.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:00 pm

  #445 Pietman:
  LOL. yip never seen anything like it and they complain about bezuidenhout.
  f’ck me, how they convinced the rest of the world Norling was Welsh is beyond me.
  fitzy made me lag, he’d surface from the bottom of a ruck and u knew every player in the bok pack wanted to klap him cos his hands were all over it or something dodgy as hell, yet he’d come up with that innocent look. if not such a great hooker, he could have won numerous academy awards that one.

• 450.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:01 pm

  #427 grootblousmile: #444 Puma:
  Ok, on that positive note I am going out into the rain and head for home and a hot kitchen for some grub and dop, freezing over here, tjaila time….
  long day.
  Will maybe read Zhihaad’s posts later and see what the buzz was all about.
  Cheers

• 451.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:02 pm

  #445 Pietman:

  And the Boks are Saints, compared.

  Oh, its true alright. Saints.

  Hey, as Corne Krige who the filthiest team he ever played. I wonder if he keeps a straight face.

• 452.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:02 pm

  #437 stodders: Thanks stodders for being honest there. We never heard the end of it here as it was directed to saffas all the time. We won that was the main thing. You saw how they went on last year when they had lost to France. Mains still got a job here after I have no idea but he did. He coached the tvl who are the lions now. He was the biggest moaner about that. Anyway I have had enough about this. I hardly ever go on about anyone I have good manners and expect others to have it too but I suppose we all don’t have to be like that. I know the world is made up of different kinds. I think its almost time to head out and go for beer too!! lol. Damn its hot here right now.

• 453.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:02 pm

  #445 Pietman:
  Hewson.

• 454.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:03 pm

  #449 Pietman: Cheers Piet….. ja ek moet ook winkels toe…. kort weer Kamele en paar vreetgoedjies….

• 455.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:03 pm

  What did I miss?

• 456.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:04 pm

  #442 stodders:

  Done

• 457.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:04 pm

  #449 Pietman: Cheers Piet. Its very hot here you will enjoy it when you come for your holiday.

• 458.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:06 pm

  johan le roux who chomped his ear used to go to the same gym as me, seemed a pretty quiet reserved guy, Fitzpatrick must have been doing something. He remains one of the best sky commentators tho when they get him on and often pays alot of respect to the Bokke.

• 459.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:08 pm

  #266 grootblousmile:

  Thanks. Here’s my reply to each point.

  1) I do not blame the WC stars for our lack of success. I merely conclude that these players, by in large, have not performed as well as they did in WC year not due to bad coaching by PdV, but rather due to a combination of not being as good as they were made out to be in the first place, not as motivated and not as pressured for their place (which I did mention, by the way). Whilst PdV, perhaps, should have been more stern, can you imagine the uproar had he dropped Matfield (who was poor after coming back from Toulon)?

  2) PdV has made most of the right calls with regards to selection expect perhaps for Mujati and Ralapelle, so no need for me to tell you. Brussouw I believe should have been given more time, and Smith should have got a kick up the *** in the Tri-Nations (we have many able loose-forwards such as Kankowski, van Nierkerk, Rossouw etc.)

  3) Such as?

  From here the disagreements stop because almost all of your next points I agree with.

  4.1) True and agreed.
  4.2) Not always true, but something to work on.
  4.3) Yes, but not because of our scrummie! Rucking has been poor at times. Januarie’s passing on EOYT was good.
  4.4) – 4.6) Well observed.

  5), 7) & Yes I agree.

  6) I have seen a game plan. For instance, on Saturday PdV was very aware of Sackey’s poor hands. The defensive patterns haven’t changed much but I was impressed with the shift we used off the lineout, where an elaborate English backline move made them not a single metre. Shows we have an adaptable defense. Good understanding between the centres and wings too. The core of what PdV is trying does not differ from the standard, which is to have an impregnable defense and a good attack. I think we are probably the only nation that can afford to have so little of the ball and still run out comfortable winners. Nothing wrong here in my opinion.

  Sorry for the late reply by the way. Cheers.

• 460.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:08 pm

  #454 WP Till I Die:
  aaaah
  big hit have put his “save the islanders campaign” on the backburner and is instead now concentrating on his “f*ck the elv’s” campaign

• 461.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:09 pm

  #448 cab: Yeah cab you are so right. LOL.

• 462.Rum And Maple:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:10 pm

  #457 cab: Fitzpatrick was a master. Bakkies is somewhat of a master in the Bok team…a big rumble and pushing and shoving…and Bakkies standing there with a grin…lovely.

• 463.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:14 pm

  #394 Irish Devil: I have never been wetter than a weekend at a Jazz Festival in Cork. Soaked every time we went outside!

• 464.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:16 pm

  #460 Puma: Puma, I think the hot weather is getting you down.
  That beer sounds like a great plan, only 2.15pm here too early for me to join in!!

• 465.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:17 pm

  #458 ziyaad: 6) I hate the fact that we give the ball to the opposition and defend for long periods of time.

  England totally dominated the middel part of the game and could have scored at least 3 tries during that time. A knock-on here and forward pass there prevented this.

  Most other teams would have taken more of their chances.

  A better reflection of the game would have been a 23 – 14 win for the boks.

• 466.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:17 pm

  Rugby philosophy for dummies:
  1 Winning is everything
  2 You are only as good as your last game.

  Forget the rest of the nonsense spoken here.

• 467.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:19 pm

  #465 tight head: Enjoy the read and abue

• 468.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:19 pm

  abue = abuse

• 469.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:19 pm

  #451 Puma:

  Gee, didnt hear you boys complain much when the Boks won that Semi vs France in ’95.

  You know the one. When Louis Luyt awarded the ref a Gold Watch at the aftermatch.

• 470.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:21 pm

  #454 WP Till I Die:

  Wat is jou storie.

  Every day you go off for six hours, then at 16h30 you come bounding back in here like a Labbie, and demand to know what you miss!

  You think anyone in their right mind is gonna recap the analysis paralysis?

• 471.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:23 pm

  #469 Dawn: Hi Dawn, glad you enjoyed the firemen earlier!! I don’t think the others “got it” , It is a girl thing!!

• 472.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:23 pm

  #466 stodders:
  See you have been in the trenches here today!!

• 473.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:24 pm

  #465 tight head:
  fair enough, short and to the point.
  how do you reconcile with comments after wales and scotland?

• 474.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:25 pm

  #470 carol:

  You are right. They just don’t get it!

• 475.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:26 pm

  #472 cab:

  If you are as good as your last game, and your last game was *****, and you are world champions at said game, ergo you just have to get better.

• 476.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:27 pm

  #214 stodders:
  Sounds good, still think we’ll POMP them HARD.
  12. Gordon Darcy? He still play?
  5. Ben Kay? Impressed in WC Final.

• 477.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:27 pm

  #474 Dawn:
  oh right

• 478.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:27 pm

  #465 tight head:
  

• 479.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:28 pm

  #471 tight head: Just a little. Everyone is allowed their opinion. I just find it a bit rich that you can suddenly be vilified just because yours does not meet that of someone elses.

  Oh, and i find it depsicable that some would insult you (or try to) in a language that is not your own. If you’re going to insult, at least do it in a common tongue so that the offender has the chance to defend himself against the offended. That is the deinition of cowardice, if you ask me.

• 480.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:28 pm

  #304 Blah:

  Unfair and dishonest. No, it’s not. It’s about putting the tournament victory into perspective. This (the WC triumph) was not the culmination of a master plan. I was making the point that we needed a lot of luck to win it. Make no mistake, we played really well, but I feel it proved little in terms of South Africa becoming the number one force in world rugby. And it’s not a case of not appreciating the World Cup either. It’s “We won the World Cup, so does that mean we’re the best team in the world?” Unfortunately not. Are Italy the number 1 football team in the world. I seriously doubt it.

  And yes, again, luck does play a role. But we lost on a consistent basis (12 times in 22 matches against the top-seeds). There’s no luck in the long run, because I believe things tend to even out. In one isolated occasion, however, luck can be overwhelmingly tilted to one side. As was the case in the WC. You see what I’m saying?

  It’s true what you say about the Januarie bounce, but that was our only piece of luck in that game. How about McDonald close lining Habana with a man outside, which should not have only been a penalty but possibly a penalty try (or yellow card), and then sending Matfield off for the ‘next’ high tackle, even though they had committed the previous one. 30 – 28 was a fair reflection of the game, and you have to admit that.

  Second point. I did not only cite motivation. In fact, only the true was about motivation. And it’s very difficult to drop the WC stars after two or three bad performances even. But those bad performances (Matfield in New Zealand, Smith and James throughout the Tri-Nations, FdP on his return) did occur, and the team did suffer.

  Third, I’ve already dealt with this. See between posts 180-200.

  Sorry for the late reply. Cheers.

• 481.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:28 pm

  #475 SexyTime: Although I think he still injured after Bakkies cleaned him out at a ruck in World Cup Final. Who remembers that?

• 482.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:28 pm

  #469 Dawn:

  It’s called work.

• 483.louisbam:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:28 pm

  f%cking missed big hit by 50 posts again

• 484.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:28 pm

  #475 SexyTime:

  Ja where is that Catholic priest Darcy.

• 485.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:29 pm

  #474 Dawn: I haven’t got an email off you. Is your mail server slow?

• 486.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:30 pm

  #472 cab:
  We won.
  So tick that most important box.
  Only as good as your last game?
  You have to analyse that in the cold light of day, considering the opposition, and decide where to improve.

• 487.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:31 pm

  #475 SexyTime: Ben Kay. Not good enough. There are better locks playing better rugby right now. the Irish duo are much better than him, and work well together.

  D’Arcy is due back from injury soon, but knowing him, he’ll break again just before the Lions tour.

• 488.louisbam:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:31 pm

  just read on news24 jean de villiers is boycotting and giving up his player of the year award

• 489.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm

  #485 tight head: tight head, check out post 214, and give me your honest opinion. Would SA worry at all if they faced that team next year?

• 490.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm

  #487 louisbam: for what reason?

• 491.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm

  #485 tight head:
  i see

• 492.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm

  #481 WP Till I Die:

  Work is the curse of the blogging classes.

• 493.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:32 pm

  #473 Dawn: Best not to try to explain either!! Some things better left unsaid!

• 494.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:33 pm

  #464 Dumb Supporter:

  Not that close. We shut them out well, although I agree, better opposition would have scored more points. Remember we did play for 20 minutes with 14 men. And both yellow cards were dodgy.

  But yes, I would like to see us keep more possession. Which is all the more reason why we should encourage skills development, especially handling and passing under pressure, as well as passing in the tackle.

• 495.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:33 pm

  #484 stodders:

  Did you get the translation? I sent it?

• 496.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:34 pm

  #494 Dawn: I haven’t got it. You can just let me know here.

• 497.louisbam:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:35 pm

  #489 stodders: Apparently he thinks Danny Cipriani deserves it more.

• 498.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:35 pm

  #490 cab: Do you? Or do you see only what you want to see? Some raw emotion on here today. don’t you think?

• 499.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:36 pm

  #495 stodders:

  OK.

  I’ve just sent it again. If not there within 10 mins I will post here.

• 500.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:37 pm

  #496 louisbam:

  Cipriani will be a good player in time. It just isn’t now. He needs to be given space to develop. However, people like Big Hit crave a superstar so badly, that they are willing to build up a flawed player in the vain hope that he will be good enough. Typical British way of building someone up only to enjoy the process of knocking him down.

• 501.Robzim:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:37 pm

  #15 ziyaad:

  Ziaad,

  I must compliment you on the well researched and well written posts. It is amongst the best I ever read on Keo and hopefully his journo’s also learn from it.

  The article by Keo is nothing new to what he has been trying to sell to the public for the last year. Only the most gullible will believe it.

• 502.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:38 pm

  #497 stodders:
  i’m not the sharpest stodders, we all have limitations.

• 503.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:39 pm

  #483 Dawn:
  #486 stodders:
  Probably right about Ben. But still good size and enthusiastic player.
  Big D’Arcy fan. THAT Ireland duo is good.

• 504.louisbam:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:40 pm

  #499 stodders: hehehe i’m still looking to get hold of Big Hit after saturday… After believing Cipriani was better than Carter before the game, it must have come as a huge shock for him to see that even a 3 Test Bok flyhalf is better than him

• 505.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:40 pm

  #502 SexyTime:

  He’s so cute all he need is a monk’s habit.

• 506.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:41 pm

  #504 Dawn: Dawn, please post the insult on here.

• 507.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:42 pm

  # cab: You do yourself a disservice. I’d say are one of the sharpest in the Keo box.

• 508.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:43 pm

  #502 SexyTime: Since when did good size and enthusiastic qualify you to be a Lion?

• 509.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:43 pm

  #505 stodders:

  OK.

  #427
  “Let it go my buddy … leave these two ***-chasing wood bears to creep up each other’s asses … they enjoy it … not our chuch’s people, these two.”

  The other one was harmless, he was saying he was gonna go to the shop to buy Camels and something to eat.

• 510.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:44 pm

  That is the gist.

• 511.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:44 pm

  #504 Dawn: lol, never thought about it that way. But cute it is. Cya. Gotta work.

• 512.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:45 pm

  #508 Dawn: LOL. Hahahahaha. Is that the best he could do? Oh well, I thought it was going to be worthy of a retort. I’m disappointed now.

• 513.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:45 pm

  #493 ziyaad: Yeah, our defense was good.

  But the point is that I find it silly to defend for large patches of the game because you are contiuously giving the ball to the opposition.

  The boks should focus on retaining possession. Improvement in this single area will ensure we win more games against the top teams.

  I find it embarressing that we play the game as if we are to scared to attack, so we give the ball the opposition and defend like cavemen.

• 514.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:45 pm

  I am here for the long haul. Stuck in town for dinner at 19h00.

  !!!!!!

• 515.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:45 pm

  #508 Dawn: “our church”…love that bit. I thought Christians were inclusive, not exclusive? I guess the Dutch Reformist one is a bit different then.

• 516.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:46 pm

  #507 stodders: Thought the boy had potensial. But probably got scared after Bakkies rucked his ***.

• 517.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:46 pm

  #511 stodders:

  You a better person than me.

• 518.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:47 pm

  #514 stodders:

  You have no idea.

• 519.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:47 pm

  #516 Dawn: No, it just isn’t worthy of a response. I think he feels superior. Let him.

• 520.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:47 pm

  #506 stodders:
  am afraid that veiled insult still falls short of being accurate.

  PS: have u seen those two Bokke fans who tour around all the stadiums in pink and green sequined bikini’s…this is what our supporter base is reduced to these days…hell man, even when we win its an embaressment.

• 521.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:47 pm

  #513 Dawn: I should get you to translate what Sheriff said about me yesterday!! Then again !!
  (Grant10 is being very slow unless he was trying to spare me)!

• 522.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:48 pm

  #513 Dawn: You must be a woman, right? (And that is asked in a 100% non-sexist “I’m just curious” kind of way)

• 523.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:48 pm

  #512 Dumb Supporter:
  but
  wasnt that the one thing every “expert” wanted?
  ..
  wanting us to kick the ball so we can “play in the opposition’s half”?

• 524.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:49 pm

  #515 SexyTime: Kay is some way behind in the lock race. Off the top of my head, in front of him are the Irish duo, Alun Wyn Jones, Nathan Hines, Nick Kennedy. At least.

• 525.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:50 pm

  #519 cab: Care to enlighten me with a more accurate translation?

  LOL. Is one of them GBS?

• 526.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:50 pm

  #517 Dawn:
  
  indeed dawn, indeed!

• 527.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:52 pm

  If one matches the Springboks versus the All Blacks player for player, position for position then we are remarkably even. If you look at the Springbok bench it is slightly better then the all blacks, who have lost an overwhelming amount of talent to Europe.

  But if we look at the actual play on the field New Zealand shades us for one predominant reason: they are completely ruthless in terms of possession, they play a possession game. But they aren’t the All Blacks of old, the All-Blacks that Graham Henry inherited from Mitchell.

  They have lost that game-breaking ability to produce something from nothing. They rely on slowly wearing out the opposition by building up the phases. I hate to say it but New Zealand rugby has become almost as boring as South African rugby used to be. We on the other hand, produce game turning moments, Jean de Villiers intercept vs Wales, Jacques Fourie vs Scotland, Ricky Januarie in Dunedin.

  But having said that, if we can’t learn to play the possession game in addition to our current defend-at-all-costs-and-wait-for-the-opposition-to-make-a-mistake mentality then we wont win the next world cup. The only way to do that is to concentrate on player fitness, body position in the tackle and methodology of stripping the ball in the tackle, we have to build a more cohesive unit.

  I have a theory that the reason for the all-blacks dominance besides superior endurance and good habits in forward play is due to superior positional play in the distribution of their players accross the field. To understand something like this ProZone would be incredibly effective and if I were PDV I would take a lot of time analyzing the tri-nations tracking player positioning accross the park.

  But another factor is the new ELV’s. They reduced our effectiveness in the Tri-Nations because the rules run counter to our traditional strengths, whilst at the same time favouring the australasian teams and their play. I would really like to see us play against post world cup NZ without the ELV’s.

• 528.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:52 pm

  #523 stodders: Yep. Point taken. Me thinks we going to eat these guys for dinner, like Dawn is going to eat her dinner at 7.

• 529.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:52 pm

  #519 cab: You’re one of the good guys. Happy to dish it out, but happy to take it too. I got worried for you last year when you were having a love-in with Mr White

• 530.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:52 pm

  #520 carol:

  Just a warning. Be careful of GBS. Those Afrikaans stuff he posts is sometimes plain rude.

  #521 SexyTime:

  Last time I looked!

• 531.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:53 pm

  #488 stodders:
  In my view those tight forwards would match us on their good day.
  But that is where it ends.

• 532.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:54 pm

  #524 stodders:
  LOL, i dunno wtf they are, but i keep seeing these two old queens touring, am definitely out of touch with the new SA.

• 533.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:55 pm

  #526 Harlequin: Mauls, I miss mauls. They worked. But good post. If we play possession game we’ll NEVER lose.

• 534.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:55 pm

  #528 stodders:
  Yes, he was potentially a great coach and still would have been one, but no-one is bigger than SA rugby, no more respect.

• 535.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:56 pm

  #529 Dawn: I have been caught out quite a few times by GBS. He is very funny though. I can’t be offended I have no idea what is said, when told I, fall about laughing.

• 536.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:56 pm

  #529 Dawn: Hahaha. Okay. Respect to you. 4 hanging with some of these RUGBY MANNE.

• 537.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:57 pm

  #526 Harlequin: Good post. Plenty in there to agree with. I think the Boks would have been more likely of victory playing the ABs pre-ELVs, but then again, it’s not a given considering the Bok record against the ABs over the years.

  I would disagree with you that the ABs have lost their game breaking ability. Carter vs Boks in Cape Town, Nonu vs Ireland with the kick through. Muliana has also been very effective in breaking the line and getting the team on the front foot in the EOYT tests.

  I think, like you, that the ABs and Boks are not too dissimilar in terms of talent right now. The ABs gameplan is more geared to controlling the tempo of the game though, and this is the main difference I believe.

• 538.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:57 pm

  #534 carol:

  He’s the kind that will twist the translation to make it fit.

• 539.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:58 pm

  #535 SexyTime:

  I don’t hang with them … they hang with me!

  

• 540.Dumb Supporter:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:58 pm

  #522 asha1: Maybe, but surely at some point in the game you must realise that by just kicking it away, you are putting yourself under pressure.

  I remember a try scored by the ABs during the WC07 against France. They did the pick-and-drive thing for about 5 minutes, starting in their own half, until they evetually scored.

  To me this is low risk rugby without giving possession away. Obviously, your rucking skills must be top standard, which we all know ours is not.

• 541.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:58 pm

  #530 tight head: Who in the NH do you rate then? If they were to line up for the Lions, who would you worry about? Please pick on recent form, not on reputation.

• 542.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 16:59 pm

  #532 SexyTime:

  I agree with the mauls analysis. Just think if we could defend like we do now in our half of the field and hold onto the pill like the all-blacks do in the oppositions half what a team we’d be.

• 543.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:02 pm

  #532 SexyTime: Well, you wouldn’t lose as often. Never say never.

• 544.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:03 pm

  #539 Dumb Supporter:

  Pick ”n drive at length (5 mins or more) would drive me batty!

• 545.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:05 pm

  #536 stodders: I agree with what you say to some degree, but just think about the all-blacks Ireland were pretty even with the All-Blacks at half time, so were Wales, so were Scotland, Australia were leading at half time in Dubai. What that tells you is that although teams are able to match New Zealand, they lack the ability to maintain that intensity for a whole game. Which is what I mean when I say that they wear sides down.

• 546.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:08 pm

  #541 Harlequin: lol point taken, Bokke tend to think if there is 60-70m behind their backs they don’t have to give everything in the tackle. Easy things like these, that the coach need to focus attention upon, in the change room just before the game. Small things win BIG games.

• 547.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:09 pm

  #542 stodders:
  Very objective. I like.
  “Keo, give this guy a job”

• 548.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:09 pm

  #540 stodders:
  Stodders I am not as up to speed as you are with the players.
  However I believe between Ireland and a one or two from Scotland and Wales you can pick a tight five that can get you parity.
  There are no loose forwards that stand out for me.
  I like the Scottish scrummie, and think he would do well on hard fields.
  The fly half must be O Gara, but I do not see any youngsters putting up their hand there.
  Has O Driscoll still got it?
  I think the half a yard of pace will sink him here.
  Can they get the big English wingers right?
  Ireland have a steady full back but nothing great.
  The cupboard is bare in the backs.

• 549.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:11 pm

  #544 Harlequin: But don’t all the best teams do that?

  I think it has been a tactic of the ABs, to play tight in the first half and wear their opponents down, only to raise the tempo in the second half. The fact that they haven’t conceded a try or even a point in each of their 3 tests and 1 midweek game suggests that their control is good and that they don’t have to rely on individual brilliance to win games. As a collective, they are working v well as team, wouldn’t you agree?

• 550.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:12 pm

  If you think about it New Zealand and South Africa’s game are two contrasts. In the case of New Zealand they wear sides out with relentless attack, whereas we wear sides out with relentless defence. But we are the only side in the world capable of playing without the ball and winning consistently. Only we are able to do this, no one else. And this is because we have players capable of producing something extraordinary in a game. We have proven this time and again. Which is precisely why without that extraordinary event in a game we can quite easily lose to the All-Blacks, as we did at Newlands this year.

• 551.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:13 pm

  19-0

• 552.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:14 pm

  #547 tight head: I think we can put together a pack that can more than compete with you. I agree with you that our backline talent doesn’t really compare to SA’s, but in 1997 that was the case too if i’m honest.

  The series will be won up front with the odd moment of brilliance and success at kicking for goal of paramount importance. don’t expect anything too flash. McGeechan will want to win, and he won’t care how that is managed.

• 553.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:14 pm

  #547 tight head: David Wallace. Machine. Andy Powell. From players? Must put Shane Williams on the wing. And O’Gara not on form.

  These guys are SCREWED even if Bokke play kak.

• 554.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:20 pm

  I am so bored…

• 555.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:21 pm

  #548 stodders: I agree wholeheartedly with you analysis. My point is that given that situation where you are behind with 20 minutes to go (France in the world cup) where you have to produce that special moment, we are more capable of doing that then New Zealand.

• 556.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:21 pm

  #552 stodders:
  I agree about the forwards.
  And I agree about the Mc Geechan factor.
  And of course he will play to his strengths.
  If that was SA there would be a whole lot of people here condemning the coach for playing old fashioned rugby!!
  So I go back to my first post.
  1 Winnning is everything.
  2 You are only as good as your last game.

  Let me add, nobody cares HOW you win the series!!

• 557.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:21 pm

  #554 WP Till I Die:

  Haai babes. Hoekom dan.

• 558.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:22 pm

  #554 WP Till I Die:

  Meet me in the bar I will buy you a drink.

• 559.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:23 pm

  #552 stodders:
  Cheers Stodders.
  Beer time!!

• 560.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:23 pm

  #548 tight head: I also think Mike Phillips of Wales is a better bet at scrum half. He’s built like Joost and has a similar type of game. Against SA, his power and pace will be invaluable. Blair offers a more subtle option.

  We are short of talent at flyhalf. Stephen Jones will do a job at 10. Unless Wilkinson returns from injury and hits form, we don’t have any top world class flyhalves. The Lions is the only team that Wilkinson has not tasted victory in, so his desire will definitely be there.

  I have high hopes for Luke Fitzgerald at 12. He is a great little stepper and is elusive, and hits above his weight. In tandem with a direct running 13, like Tom Shanklin of Wales, we could pose problems for JdV and Jacobs/Fourie.

  We don’t have brilliant wingers, even including Shane Williams. He can be mercurial, but i think he can be targeted by the big boys. I think the Lamont brothers of Scotland have power and pace, and can do for the 2009 Lions what Alan Tait did for the 1997 ones.

  Lee Byrne and Rob Kearney at fullback are as good as anything you have currently, if not better.

  the Boks should still win though. In these days of professionalism, a scratch touring side should not beat a top national team like the Boks. The time needed to get players from 4 different nations with 4 different game plans, defensive systems etc. playing one style with confidence is longer than the length of the tour. If the tour were longer, like the 1974 tour, I would have more hope that by the end of it, when tests are played, that the team would be more cohesive and pose more of a threat.

• 561.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:24 pm

  #547 SexyTime:

  Listen. Why you call yourself SexyTime.

  Are you sexy all the time.

  Is blogging time sexy time.

  What time is sexy time.

• 562.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:25 pm

  #560 stodders:

  At last.

  Someone else other than me mentions Rob Kearney.

• 563.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:26 pm

  #560 stodders:

  And what about that Scottish srumhalf kicker captain.

  Please send him here.

• 564.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:27 pm

  #558 Dawn:

  Which bar?

• 565.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:27 pm

  #523 stodders:
  1. Sheridan 2. Ford 3. Murray
  4. Hines 5. O’Connel
  6. White 7. Moody 8. Powell

  9. Cooper 10. JW
  12. D’arcy 13. Roberts
  11. Williams 14. Vanikola 15. R Lamont (blonde one)

  16, Jenkins 17. Best 18. Vickery 19. Shaw 20. Rees/Hogg 21. Hook 22. Strettle

• 566.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:28 pm

  #555 Harlequin: Yes and no. It has to be remembered that NZs top 10 (Carter) got injured, then his replacement (Evans) got injured too, leaving McAllister at 10 and a patched up backline, with Toeava at 12 and Muliana at 13.

  Imagine in the world cup if SA lost Butch, then lost Pretorius, then had Steyn at 10 with a novice utility player at 12. I’m sure your backline would malfunction just the same as theirs did. With the added pressure of being behind on the score board, the forwards took it upon themselves to win the game, and ultimately failed.

• 567.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:31 pm

  #561 Dawn: Haha… Big Borat fan. Movie is a bit RUDE but very funny. Every other place on the web my name is SexyTime.

  AND YES:
  All above also.

  Keo time is sexy time.:)

• 568.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:31 pm

  #564 WP Till I Die:

  Wherever is close for you. News Bar, any bar.

• 569.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:32 pm

  Something Like this I reckon

  1) Allen Jacobsen/Andrew Sheridan
  2) Rory Best/Lee Mears
  3) Phil Vickery/Euan Murray
  4) Paul ‘o Connel/ Nathan Hines
  5) Alan Wyn Jones/ Doncha O Calaghan
  6) Stephen Ferris/Jason White
  7) David Wallace/ John Barclay
  Andy Powell/Ryan Jones
  9) Mike Blair/Danny Care
  10) Jonny Wilkinson/Ronan O Gara
  11) Shane Williams/Rob Kearney
  12) Gavin Henson/Luke Fitzgerald
  13) Brian ‘o Driscoll/Tom Shanklin
  14) Paul Sackey/Rory Lamont
  15) Lee Byrne/Geordan Murphy

• 570.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:32 pm

  #565 cab:

  Any Lamont is good for me.

• 571.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:33 pm

  #569 Harlequin:

  Oy.

  Where’s Kearney.

• 572.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:34 pm

  #565 cab: Agree with most of that.

  Substitute White for Haskell.

  Moody would be on the bench to cover 6 and 7. His place would be filled by David Wallace or John Barclay. Both natural 7s with power, rather than an average hybrid.

  Substitute Cooper with either Mike Phillips or Mike Blair. Both are better players.

  I like D’Arcy. good player, hope he is fit. Roberts at 13 could be a goer, but I think Shanklin is a better 13.

  Vainikolo will never get picked. Sean or Rory Lamont offer size and speed. I think Lee Byrne or Rob Kearney will play fullback, probably with Rory Lamont on the wing as an extra wing/fullback option.

  Vickery won’t tour, he’s past it. I think they’ll go for one of the Welsh boys. I think Hartley may force himself into the selectors thoughts for the reserve hooker spot.

  Rees/Hogg will probably be Moody, although thinking about it, both are better players than Moody and one of them will be there.

• 573.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:34 pm

  #565 cab: Wallace in 4 White and O’Driscoll (Class) in 4 Robert. Then we have a deal.

• 574.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:34 pm

  Andy Powell all the way.

• 575.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:34 pm

  #570 Dawn:
  are u talking playing abilities or the shape of their arse?

• 576.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:34 pm

  The name on the left is the shoe-in the one on the right is the backup. Obv Jonny Wilkinson is dependant on injury.

• 577.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:35 pm

  #569 Harlequin:

  #565 cab:

  Why do you guys still rate Phil Vickery? Is it based on his form of the last 3 years, or based on his form when England were any good in 2002/3? Because he has been poor for Wasps and England this year and others, like Euan Murray are now much better.

• 578.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:35 pm

  #570 Dawn: like any Ndungane?

• 579.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:35 pm

  #571 Dawn: there and thereabouts

• 580.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:36 pm

  #575 cab:

  Playing abilities, of course.

• 581.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:36 pm

  #578 SexyTime:

  Of course.

• 582.SexyTime:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:37 pm

  #572 stodders: Why you so on about Tom Shanklin. We is a wing. **** centre. IMO

• 583.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:37 pm

  I rate him because I thought he did a good job against the Aussies and the boks, granted, not exactly the best scrummagers, but like Os its always good to have some old, calm heads around in the front row.

• 584.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:37 pm

  #575 cab:

  I mean really.

  They can’t help it if they are drop-dead gorge AND can play rugby too.

• 585.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:38 pm

  #569 Harlequin: Aside from Vickery and Geordan Murphy and Lee Mears, I pretty much agree with your selection. the selections will be down to form at the time.

  Interstingly, on current form, they would be no more than 3 or 4 Englishmen in the match day 22.

• 586.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:39 pm

  #585 stodders:

  Poor ol’ Geordan.

  He must be so tired of cleaning up bad balls already.

• 587.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:41 pm

  Amazing how quiet this office gets after 17h00!!!

  Peaceful!

  The chattering classes have left!

• 588.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:41 pm

  #582 SexyTime: In tandem with Gavin Henson, he formed the best overall centre partnership in the NH of last year, that is they could both attack and defend.

  O’Driscoll is not the player he was, and I wonder if next year is not one too far for him. If he is on form, I hope D’Arcy returns to form and the Fitzgerald is playing well. the Irish centres have been pretty good over the last few years. If they are, we have a chance to ask your centres some questions, especially with some good outside backs to help them.

  We are struggling for decent outside centres in the NH, and Shanklin is a good one.

• 589.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:41 pm

  (And this blog too)

• 590.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:42 pm

  #583 Harlequin: Fair enough. He did a good olding job, but he offered little else. Vickery was once a brilliant player. The raging bull. Sadly, he isn’t anymore.

• 591.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:43 pm

  #584 Dawn:
  would not know about that. thought all the tannies liked the roundballers, whatsisname, squeaky voice, beckenham?

• 592.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:43 pm

  #590 stodders:

  Who’s that big bald Irish forward with the bandage on one ear who always cries during anthems.

• 593.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:43 pm

  ok later, better finish up.

• 594.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:44 pm

  #591 cab:

  AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH!

  No way man.

• 595.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:44 pm

  #591 cab: As if you don’t know his name? You live in France where they love him. Il est les ballons d’or!

• 596.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:45 pm

  #592 Dawn: John Hayes. He’s not good enough to be a Lion.

• 597.Harlequin:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:45 pm

  #592 Dawn: you just described the entire irish pack

• 598.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:46 pm

  #595 stodders:
  i thought all the frogs liked zidanski or something. strange game that. goldenballs and all.

• 599.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:46 pm

  #596 stodders:

  He looks the part. But OK then .. don’t send him.

  Send Kearney … I live in a block of flats in Wynberg and if you send him I will supply full details.

• 600.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:47 pm

  #597 Harlequin:

  

• 601.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:48 pm

  #598 cab:

  You can’t compare Zidane to Beckham.

  No way.

• 602.JL1:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:50 pm

  4 Nations and they battle to get 15 decent rugby players out on the park

  Clubs are killing the game, the Boks will get better and will be rested, plus a lot of added motivation for the players who will retire by 2011, so B Lions watch out

• 603.JL1:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:51 pm

  #596 stodders: 4 Nations and they battle to get 15 decent players out on the park. Really poor

• 604.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 17:52 pm

  Somebody please post the results during the Lions Aus tour.

• 605.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:16 pm

  #538 Dawn: Thank you for your advice

• 606.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:21 pm

  #604 Dawn: Oh and Dawn from last week….one Welsh Border Collie and three assorted terriers!
  Enjoy your meal out. Go and find some gorgeous rugby playing firemen!!

• 607.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:24 pm

  #605 carol:

  No prob! Creepy here with no-one about!

• 608.Dawn:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:25 pm

  #606 carol:

  My ultimate dream. But alas it is a family do!!!!

• 609.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:27 pm

  #606 carol:

  Hey! CM, you are really, really looking for loads of trouble by dissing the great Leeds United the way you did earlier today. They were the heart and soul of England once upon a time even to the extent of giving the national team the Great Don Revie (plus the likes of Jackie Charlton,Terry Cooper, Norm Hunter, Paul Madeley etc. etc. all in one team) which was the beginning of the end of The Whites.

• 610.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:28 pm

  #19 ziyaad:
  Phew….such a long and carefully considered string of posts, backed up with stats, warrants comment!

  You spoilt a persuasive argument with your last line – leaving an impression that you have an axe to grind and racial baggage. I for one, have no problem with the colour of PDV’s skin and wish him and the boks all the success in the world. The reason people are pouncing on him when the boks fail, is because he was selected because of the coulour of his skin. His appointment was not a merit selection. HM had way better credentials – infact PDV did not even have like credentials to compare! Anyway, lets leave that tired (though prertinant) debate for another day.

  On to the body of argument……
  I agree largely. The ELV’s do necesitate a change in strategy, as does our game in general, as you correctly (i.m.o.) reflected upon, backed up by stats against top opponents under White. SA’s record in the last 4 years, prior to the WC was “poor.” But “poor” is subjective judgement fuelled by expectation. Why should we expect to be at the top? Do we have enough raw talent and enough resources and intellectual capital in SA to expect this?

  Our success at the world cup was hollow, but for two important factors – BMT and self belief. Part of me agrees with the Kiwi argument that Keo scorns. I would rather have four years with a 90% record and #1 ranking than a somewhat hollow WC high. As you rightly say, false expectation has ensued from the trophy. Keo has vested interest in punting it so his vision is clouded.

  I think we do need a fresh approach. We have the talent and brawn to dominate but do we have the brain? Does PDV and co have the brain to engineer a fresh winning strategy? It has been a mixed bag thus far, but in retrospect we have looked sublime at times whilst at others looked rudderless (and coachless!) How much time do you give them?

  “Defense wins games.” This is a ludicrous statement.Having more points on the board wins games. You still have to score the points in the first place, only then limiting through defence, the oposition to less points than what you have! This negative mindset is one we need to shed (without reducing our defernsive efforts) To score more points we need to be more creative, whilst at the same stage dominating up front and keeping possesion through more phases, with patience, then having a crack when oportunities present thenselves when defenses are more stretched. This is the structure we need, not sending it wide off first or second phase, risking getting the ball turned over for holding etc. This is the “structure” PDV needs more of. Combine this with attacking, creative flair at the right time and we’re in for high times…..

• 611.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:38 pm

  #610 julz:

  Anyone who makes the comment “His appointment was not a merit selection. ” is ipso facto saying that any S.A national selection prior to democracy was not a merit selection because they were not the only people in SA playing the game and thus their collective abilities were not measured against all playing the game, for anyone to make the claim of merit selection or whichever way anyone wants to say it.

• 612.JL1:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:43 pm

  #610 julz: well said, and also true

• 613.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:51 pm

  #612 JL1:

  Absolute rubbish judging from my previous comment. Give the counter argument.

• 614.JL1:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:54 pm

  #613 ET: Rugby remains rugby,which means do the basics right, get the ball (possession), defend and then earn the right to run at the opposition (territory, turnover ball, advantage etc etc )

  Really simple, one cannot run all the time, but one needs to be able to identify and act on the moments where you can run the ball

• 615.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:55 pm

  #609 ET: Well thats the trouble, they were once mighty but are somewhat struggling nowadays!! Surely there must be a Saffa rugby side that is somewhat the same? I was trying to get a paralllel, so who is the rugby Chelsea anyway?

• 616.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 18:58 pm

  #615 carol:

  You are now getting confused by all the teams you mentioned earlier.

• 617.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:00 pm

  #610 julz:

  I do not regret that last comment.

  Maybe that’s the impression I leave, but I simply cannot explain the things people have said in the media and elsewhere as being purely rugby-related.

  I wish I had copied them. Because if I could show you, you would be disgusted.

  Oh and the rest of your reply is good. I agree mostly. On paragraph 5, though, when did you think we looked ‘coachless’? And why?

  I tend to believe, regardless of how well a coach communicates a game plan to his players, if the player’s excecution is poor, it will always appear as if there was limited planning involved. For me, the 0-19 loss is a case in point.

• 618.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:04 pm

  #615 carol:

  On another topic are you aware that UK race horses did extremely well here on Breeders Cup day when in excess of $23 mill. was for the taking? As a result of those horses doing so well on the turf and the new ‘rubberised’ tracks I was smiling all the way to the bank that day because of the arrogance of the US bettors leading to foreign horses winning at very good odds.

• 619.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:07 pm

  #603 JL1: I agree with you. Have I ever said differently?

  The club game is thriving, but at the expense of our national teams who are growing weaker and our talent pools growing ever smaller as more foreign players flock up here in numbers.

  However, England are recruiting mercenaries to play for them. They don’t care if they aren’t born in England. France have been doing it for years too, as have Scotland and Wales. I don’t see this trend changing. In fact, I see it only getting worse. In time, unless the growth of the club game is curtailed, I can see the home nations being full of Kiwis, Ozzies and South Africans who either qualify through residency or ancestry. Sad, isn’t it?

  Re Lions – I don’t think we will win, but i hope the coaching team will make us more than competitive, and with a bit of luck, for we will need some, we might sneak the series.

• 620.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:08 pm

  #617 ziyaad:

  Ziyaad, do names like Cassiem Jabaar, Salie Fredericks, Hardy Dollie, Piet Jooste, Temba Ludwaba etc., etc. have any significance for you? I ask because I want to get some sense of your historical perspective wrt your sensible comments of the last few days.

• 621.CHAZ:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:08 pm

  Keo, not alot happening re news at the moment, stats speak for themselves, don’t they, didn’t see any saffa’s at the awards the other nite, ah yes sorry Jake White giving Lord Ted coach of the year award, show me a Boke team that has lost 15 top players and still wins consistantly and we will certainly say, yes the bokes are a better team, you sad sad man!!

• 622.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:10 pm

  #619 stodders:

  Where are you based?

• 623.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:12 pm

  #616 ET: I may be blonde, but I’m not confused. If Chelsea was a rugby side (loads of money and glamour) who is closest to that? The Sharks are Man Utd, because overseas persons support them in huge numbers. Who is the once mighty side that now languish (like Leeds)?#618 ET: I hope you spent your winnings on something completley friolous!

• 624.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:16 pm

  #620 ET:

  Yes. Can’t I saw them play though!

• 625.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:17 pm

  #624 ziyaad:

  Sorry, meant “Can’t *say* I saw them play though!”

• 626.NZINCHINA:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:18 pm

  Great article KEO fantastic logic and obviously the Bokke aren’t playing this weekend.

• 627.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:23 pm

  #624 ziyaad:
  Okay that is fine just means i am older than you but it does explain why you have such clarity of thought
  Good. If you played the game at higher than school level which club did you play for? I am assuming you will name a Cape Town club but it does not matter as I will probably know your club as i know SA rugby well.

• 628.BlackPanther:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:23 pm

  #577 stodders:

  and Euan Murray is apparently beoming a Lions prop based solely on his performance against a debutant 2nd-team 21yr old AB prop.

  Truly madness. Always go for the grizzled old heads 1st, especially in the Republic where they spit out front-rowers for fun.

  But, I agree, Vicker looked washed up 2-3 seasons ago. Hasnt been right since that neck injury.

• 629.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:23 pm

  #622 ziyaad: Based in UK at the mo. But plans are afoot to relocate to Cape Town, hopefully not in distant future. What about you?

• 630.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:25 pm

  #628 BlackPanther: Care to name me a better tight head in the NH than Murray? I think you’ll struggle, and that’s not becaue Murray is great. It’s because the standard is poor. How I wish it was the British, Irish and French Lions. Then we could have a French tight head or two.

• 631.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:27 pm

  #627 ET:

  I’ve only played school level rugby so far. I’ll be at UCT next year so I’ll play there.

• 632.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:29 pm

  #629 stodders:

  Cape Town. Are you South African?

• 633.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:41 pm

  #623 carol:

  You are incorrect on a number of points though. Firstly rugby union, especially in the SH cannot have realistic comparisons to assoc. football as the money in rugby is not personal( as in football-Abromovitz etc., etc.) but usually company money in the form of sponsorship.
  Also the Sharks irrespective of what their supporters, like rangerman, say, are not world renowned or liked and in fact mostly promise only to deceive and win once in every 10 years or so(Currie cup is worthless these days).
  WP has the most money which is mostly wasted by rank bad admin. for years now but are nowhere near Leeds Un. in the respect of the criminal finacial disaster there. LEEDS IS A SPECIAL CASE AND NO TEAM CAN, IN RUGBY, BE COMPARED TO THEM.

• 634.wing_14:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:47 pm

  Okay, so the 3-nations didn’t go so well But let me tell you, I was at Twickers on Saturday and these poms are crying!!! We ended the tour on a high and I think SA teams will perform in the Super 14

• 635.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:48 pm

  #631 ziyaad:
  So you are very young then and a long road lies ahead still.
  Really good, on a number of levels, what lies ahead for you. UCT is my alma mater, so hopefully you will still get a good education and a good rugby experience. Has the original, non-racial SARU and SACOS been a discussion point in the older generation of your family and what area did they reside in prior to 1992?

• 636.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:54 pm

  #633 ET: Well I am SO glad you cleared that one up!
  What did you spend your winnings on, don’t tell me you invested it!

• 637.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:55 pm

  Keo – one of our worst national traits is blowing our own trumpets before the final whistle blows.

  You wrote off New Zealand before the 3N too.

  When we actually beat NZ and Australia more than they beat us – they facts will be the facts.

  I could give a flying fk about the RWC – I still felt the pain of losing against the All Blacks & Wallabies in real time, the present – the RWC did nothing to salve the losses.

  If we get a scary Tight Head prop (sorry that is not Smitty) we will beat the Lions (who will be much better than expected) and have the potential to win the 3N. But that’s in the future. All that will count will be the actual results.

• 638.CHAZ:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:55 pm

  Keo, I think the words bitter and twisted come to mind, thats why they make songs about you!!!

• 639.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:55 pm

  #636 carol: If you dissed The Mighty Whites you are in big trouble.

• 640.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:56 pm

  #633 ET: What about the Lions?

• 641.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:56 pm

  #637 SodaJoe: Soda is this damp weather getting you down or is it the beer?

• 642.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:58 pm

  #641 carol: I am enjoying myself. Just hate it when we beat our chests about imaginary wins.

• 643.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:58 pm

  #639 SodaJoe: No I did not diss them, ET just wants a scrap I think!! I did say which team in the South African rugby world is like Leeds, once mighty now struggling?

• 644.KingPaul:
  27 Nov 2008, 19:58 pm

  #631 ziyaad: Eish broer, as jy van rugby ‘n toekoms wil maak moes jy eerder Maties toe gekom het.

• 645.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:00 pm

  #631 ziyaad: Good luck bud. You will do well across all levels.

  Is Skopskiet your uncle?

• 646.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:00 pm

  #643 carol: The Lions (who I also support).

• 647.Skim:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:01 pm

  My feelings exactly mr Keo

• 648.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:01 pm

  #636 carol:

  I have a habit of going to the supermarket after a good win and also of filling the tank with gasoline and I still have quite a bit left for the next big races which will be next year. I only bet on graded races and not the penny-hapenny type.

  You come across as being a bit peeved in your comment but I hope I am wrong.

• 649.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:01 pm

  #644 KingPaul: Nah boet. UCT take all the clever okes that can play rugby.

• 650.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:02 pm

  #648 ET: Philly Steak – having a good Thanksgiving?

• 651.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:03 pm

  #642 SodaJoe: Glad you are having fun. Bit of a statement by Keo again I agree!
  Going to see my sister in a play tonight, should be amusing. So off now, you can chat about Leeds to ET !!

• 652.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:03 pm

  #611 ET:
  Two wrongs don’t make a right. You can’t solve a problem using the same energy that created the problem in the first place.

• 653.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:04 pm

  #651 carol: I think that there are 3 true football supporters on Keo. Me, ET & JustRugby. The rest are Johnny Come Lately opportunists.

• 654.KingPaul:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:05 pm

  #649 SodaJoe: hahaha, nee my tjom, ek is ‘n volbloed Matie. Wanneer laas het ‘n Ikey vir die Bokke gespeel? Om te dink, wanneer laas het ‘n Ikey vir WP gespeel?
  My best memories of my student days are the Intervarcity games between Maties and Ikeys. Maties always won, but those Ikey girls were smoking hot!!!!

• 655.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:05 pm

  #648 ET: You did say I was confused and incorrect……………I probably was
  Very sensible spending habits there.

• 656.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:06 pm

  #653 SodaJoe: Justrugby another Man U man along with Grant10!
  Got to beautify now!! Outta here………..

• 657.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:07 pm

  #640 SodaJoe:
  Hey Soda they (Lions) are not my team though. And you know that this Leeds is as asual, even these days, a frustratung team to follow. I cannot tolerate their inconsistency. They should, on the bases of what I have seen, be running away with this league. They dominate games by up to 80% and dominate Derby but either just win or lose as they did against Derby and Northampton(Tues).

• 658.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:07 pm

  #654 KingPaul: I think we should hire some of those Ikey/Matie cheerleaders to help teach us to sing at the Bok games. We are so kak compared to everyone else.

  I can just hear it “Mevrou Van Wyke. Kom Slaap By My …..”

  Much better than Ole Ole Ole.

• 659.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:08 pm

  #656 carol: *******.

• 660.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:09 pm

  #657 ET: Killing me. Northampton best example of that.

  I think it’s God’s way of keeping me humble. (Along with the Boks).

• 661.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:10 pm

  #652 julz:

  I am not solving any problem I am just revealing the inconsistency of your argument. I bet you did not make a noise when that argument, of merit selection, went in your favour prior to 1992.

• 662.KingPaul:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:11 pm

  #658 SodaJoe: When I was a the test against the AllBlacks I heard a good deal of “stamp jou boude lam…”

• 663.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:13 pm

  #662 KingPaul: And then the ref blew ….

• 664.SodaJoe:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:14 pm

  I am out of here.

  See you through the window.

• 665.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:15 pm

  #660 SodaJoe:

  Then to hell with god then. Joking if you are offended or anyone else for that matter.
  Hey though you scare me because almost eveyday you reveal that you like things that I too adore. The latest being “God save the Queen” I watch F1q racing always hoping that the anthem will be played. I think in both our cases it is because it was our original anthem and I was rooted in the Anglican church.

• 666.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:17 pm

  #617 ziyaad:
  What would be the point in copying them anyway? Unfortunately racial prejudice exists…and you would be right in many instances….but why stoke the fire…even if you feel hurt.

  There were “coachless” times when kikked the ball too many times from promising field positions and launched too many aimles up-and-unders. We also tried to do too much too soon with too much individuality and couldn’t seen to hang onto the ball for any length of time without it being turned over – players wre often isolated. Some of this you can blame on the game plan and coaching – all three and not just PDV!

• 667.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:19 pm

  #660 SodaJoe:

  Mate you are missing Thanksgiving and I am now off to enjoy it with some of my many SA friends here in Philly. Enjoy your stay there in England.

• 668.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:21 pm

  #655 carol:

  CM, Leeds is a touchy point with those of us who have been with them since the days of Billy Bremner and his band of merry brothers of the late 60s-early 70s and then beyond.

• 669.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:25 pm

  #661 ET:
  Why do you want to paint me on one side? Peace, Brother. I was a lightie then and certainly did not support any actions taken by the government of the time!
  It is time to move forward, and the way forward is not the way back (racial descrimination insitutionalised by law.) I have yet to “win” an election with my vote, though you may have….

• 670.CoachPete:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:27 pm

  Did I read that correct. The boks are a better team than the All blacks?
  I dont think so.
  Who won the tri Nations?
  Does not matter what the score is against England 10 points better or 50 points better.
  IMO, All blacks are a better side than Boks right now.
  It may change next year.

• 671.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:33 pm

  #670 CoachPete:
  Keo being over zealous once more and putting forth his opinion as fact!
  I have to agree, sadly…..though I have high hope after the last game…especially if we put Steyn at fullback and find a place for Jaque!

• 672.ET:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:41 pm

  #669 julz:

  I am not pointing a finger specifically in your direction but very bmany ,like you benefited from what was wrongly done. And the wrongs of the past must not only be done but must be seen to be done for the word merit to ever have a meaning.
  Policies like AAction, though not supported by me is just a small attempt at correcting those wrongs and no one who previously gained by horrid policies of the past should ever complain about this small gain now by ,for example PdV.

  You are lucky you at least voted. I have never yet ever voted. And I am told that I am very educated.

• 673.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:55 pm

  #672 ET:
  So what is your plan for moving forward as a nation and healing the ills of the past? AA and BEE is driving a lot of skilled people from our shores, amd I may be one of them (though the primary reason is violent crime). I’m a civil engineer with 10yrs experience with the very skills the government says are desperately needed (water, sanitaion, housing…..) Why do you believe I’m so much better off as a result of the racial laws of the past? If I’d been born to the same parents in Australia for instance, would I not have enjoyed a similar quailty of life?

• 674.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 20:57 pm

  Sorry CoachPete, are we chasing you away with this non-rugby political discussion?

• 675.inchanga:
  27 Nov 2008, 21:23 pm

  #612 JL1:

  where is the truth, that he was not a merit selection, you of that opinion too, while others are saying he could become the best Springbok coach ever, even better than Mallet, now how many of you and the bees knees of rugby kenners over here are going to be acknowledging that much?

  Would be a nice little scenario to have every negative negating tear down thread and post on here over the past twelve months displayed in say a years time from now, when perhaps by then the Springbok team is playing better rugby than it has since readmission, and these excruciating debilitating negating drum boxes will still most likely be churning out the same old nonchalant beat.

• 676.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 21:35 pm

  #675 inchanga:
  It was stated by Hoskins at the anouncement of his appointment. Not to say his selection had no merit, and that he might not become a great coach. His selection was a political one nonetheless. HM had better credentials, experience…etc

• 677.saffa_guy:
  27 Nov 2008, 21:51 pm

  #625 ziyaad:

  You out there?
  Drop us a mail when you have a chance: adielh AT hotmail DOT com

• 678.saffa_guy:
  27 Nov 2008, 21:57 pm

  The presidents (political) council elected a technical committe, of their choice, to evaluate the Bok coaching candidates
  The criteria were agreed by all
  PdV was the technical committees choice
  Certain members of the presidents (political) council would not accept the technical committees recommendation and forced the matter to be put to vote
  PdV won presidents councils vote

  By my summation: As PdV was the choice of the technical committe he was the merit selection

• 679.cucabara:
  27 Nov 2008, 21:58 pm

  #676 julz:
  HM would have been a backward step, or at best sideways, PdV is most definitely a forward one, contrary to what most deadbeat bloggers on here believe

  The council voted 10-9 (something in that vain) in favor of PdV, twice, so where is the political appointment, Hoskins wanted HM and lost, so out came the other underhanded quote.

• 680.dquinn25:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:03 pm

  My opinion is that the Boks when they play to their potential are the best, however they dont do it often enough.

  The All Blacks are by far the most consistent side in the world, how often do you watch the All Blacks and think “i wonder what team will turn up today” you dont because they are so consistent.

  Its tough because what do you want? to literally be the best and perform only sporadically or be a close second but produce consistency that allows you to win more games?

  Its tough the arguement could go on forever, but as a scotsman i am under no illusion that the Boks and the All Blacks are the two best sides by a mile in the world at the moment.

• 681.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:05 pm

  #679 cucabara:
  I’m not punting for either candidate! All I wish for is merit selection. I’m not a fan of HM’s brand of rugby, neither Jake White’s, inspite of him winning the WC.

• 682.saffa_guy:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:06 pm

  I question the motives of those members of the presidents council who would not accept their elected technical committee’s recommendation (based on criteria agreed by all)

• 683.saffa_guy:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:08 pm

  Had Heyneke won the presidents council vote (after not being the technical committees choice) he could then be classed as a political choice.

• 684.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:10 pm

  #680 dquinn25:
  those highs awesome……then we hit the ground with a thump and the daggers come out….only to be spellbound one more….Tough choice I agree!

• 685.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:13 pm

  #682 saffa_guy:
  do you know what the vote split of the technical committee was?

• 686.CoachPete:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:18 pm

  #674 julz:
  No its ok I had to leave for a bit.
  I also think Steyn is a 15 and should be played there for the sharks, but i think Stephan is still with the sharks.

• 687.CoachPete:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:21 pm

  #680 dquinn25:
  They are very consistant however they do have some problems at the world cups, and for that reason, even though they are a great side, there have beeen some questions about them winning when it counts

• 688.julz:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:22 pm

  #686 CoachPete:
  Who would you pick, Adi or Jaque or neither?

• 689.CoachPete:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:28 pm

  That is a tough one
  I have to say Adi has really played well for the boks this year.
  The combination of Jdv and Adi has also been good.
  However in saying that, the 2 current centers appear to hold on to the ball a lot and it doesnt get to the wings too much especially our world class wing Habana
  If i I had to take a center who is going to make space for his wings and then distribute it to them, Fourie gets the edge at 13 .
  The question is do you move adi to 12 (he is a better 13) and drop Jdv or do you drop adi and play jdv at 12 still?

• 690.CoachPete:
  27 Nov 2008, 22:32 pm

  In saying that, I believe Adi will stay in starting 15 not only due to his good play a center, but sadly for other reasons

• 691.Hurricane:
  27 Nov 2008, 23:28 pm

  The Springboks are a better team than the current All Blacks – and Saturday’s Test against the Poms at Twickenham will prove it.

  Rubbish Keo.

  “One thing New Zealanders love to do is talk up their All Blacks. It is something those in the northern hemisphere also take great delight in – that is talking up the men in black.”

  Keo and what is your post just done,talked up the Boks.Why shoulnt a Kiwi talk up there own team,its called faith.

• 692.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:02 am

  #87 Puma:
  “You won it in 1987 with out SA even being there so you cant even call yourself champs by not playing us then now can you.”

  Well Puma,how is it?We didnt play you guys in 2007 so whats the difference?

• 693.Big Hit:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:16 am

  #678 saffa_guy: I seen an interview with Heyneke and he was very gracious saying that the candidates applied and the best man for the job was hired. There were no sour grapes, no political inferences he just accepted the decision for what he felt it was.

  #692 Hurricane: the difference is you were there in 2007 and got beat in the QFs, SA didn’t get a chance in 87.

• 694.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:17 am

  #116 Big Hit:
  Why not all you do is go back 21 years

• 695.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:21 am

  #693 Big Hit:
  Big Hit,how cares if they didnt get a chance or not,NZ would have beaten SA if they were there.Why should world rugby stop for a nation that didnt care about human rights? Why should anyone belittle NZs RWC win? You are the same,belittle anything we have achieved. RWC win is cos SA wasnt there,any of our wins against test teams is cos the opposition didnt have a full strength team

• 696.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:24 am

  #680 dquinn25:
  NZ and SA the 2 best sides in the world at the moment? How come?
  NZ is the #1 team,but SA have come last 3 years in a row against OZ and NZ in the tri nations. Their is no country mile between any of these 3 teams but going on 3 years worth i rate OZ better than SA,just my opinion

• 697.Big Hit:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:29 am

  #695 Hurricane: hold up, as I see it you guys are the ones doing the belittling of SA’s win. And I do give credit to NZ for wins, they beat France in Paris a couple of years back when France were good and beat Wales by a point in ’04 when Wales were good and they beat the best Ireland had to offer when they were on a high. So its not true to say I don’t give them credit for good wins.

• 698.Big Hit:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:30 am

  #696 Hurricane: most up here rate Aus as the weakest of the 3N in spite of the tri nations table, the Boks or the ABs is the scalp they want the most.

• 699.Yetirat:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:38 am

  #34 Pietman:

  That’s really interesting. I’m based overseas so didn’t get that. Would loved to have watched it. I’m of a similar opinion but didn’t know other greats like Joost were too. Feels good to know that.

• 700.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:39 am

  #123 Puma:
  Puma,you beat the Cavaliers in SA.
  Of the Cavaliers only about 5-6 of those players were in the ABs of 1987.Most of the Cavaliers recieved a Ban for going against the wishes of NZRU to tour SA.So NZ picked new ABs this is why they were called the Baby Blacks,these were the ones that won the RWC not the cavaliers.And another thing,the games were played in NZ and OZ,not SA so you know how many times you guys complained about travel being the reasons to losing,this year would not have beeb different

• 701.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:46 am

  #697 Big Hit:
  Sorry,2 years ago you gave NZ credit………lol.
  Ok look at it this way then.I am going to say the RWC format is wrong.RWC 2007 is a perfect example at what could happen.A team goes through without playing any of the big guns.I understand it wasnt there fault due to NZ being unable to beat France and OZ unable to beat a weak English team.I dont agree with the format thats all.
  And another thisg is people saying about the weak French team.Now SA lost to France 4 out of the last 6 games i think now.SA cant say France was weak,didnt France beat SA at home twice the year before RWC?

• 702.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 00:50 am

  #698 Big Hit:
  Understand Boks holding the RWC and NZ being the team to beat always.

• 703.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 01:00 am

  #635 ET:

  I certainly hope so! Have been very fortunate thus far with regards to education and exposure to rugby.

  Yes, it has. My father lived in Landsdowne and my mother in Surrey Estate.

  Where abouts in Cape Town are you from?

• 704.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 01:04 am

  #644 KingPaul:

  I’m not going to make a career playing rugby! It’s a hobby for me. Got some good mates going there though.

  #645 SodaJoe:

  Thank you. Skopskiet? No, no relation. From what I gather he was banned from this site. Does that mean I’m headed down a similar path?

• 705.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 01:20 am

  #666 julz:

  I’m afraid it’s how I feel when I open the newspaper or read up on the internet. Why should I be afraid to express how I feel when everyone else seems very happy to do so in much less polite terms? In an ideal world I would not even know the word racist – but it’s not and racism is still prevalent in certain quarters.

  This is interesting. You cite our excessive kicking as an example of a poor game plan (or lack of one), yet rugby journalists throughout this country would have you believe we tried to run the ball from every corner of the field.

  Yes, we do kick excessively, and quite often, pointlessly. It’s all to do with a desire to gain territory, and it’s related to this ‘structured’ game plan everyone speaks of. I do believe it is necessary, but not to the extent that it’s all we do.

  Not hanging on to the ball? As in catching or offloading? Either way, it’s part of the greater plan to teach the players to improve their skills and execution in a match situation.

  The question of isolation, however, must be a coaching issue. At times we’ve been clinical at ruck time. Quick, clean ball. Other times it’s like every ruck we’re fighting for our lives. Something Gold needs to address properly before B & I arrive.

• 706.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 01:20 am

  #705 ziyaad:

  B & I Lions that is…

• 707.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 01:21 am

  #677 saffa_guy:

  Yep will do.

• 708.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  28 Nov 2008, 01:55 am

  #698 Big Hit:

  Most rate the english as the best in spite of the most horrific post RWC win and loss to all and sundry.
  What people rate and what results show can differ.

• 709.Wallabie. - The English always have an excuse after a pomp!!:
  28 Nov 2008, 02:01 am

  #680 dquinn25:

  Any team that plays to their potential are the best.

  Just maybe that the results that RSA get is their potential.

• 710.kesbok:
  28 Nov 2008, 02:03 am

  ziyaad – interesting thoughts but i cannot agree entirely. You cannot single out players like Burger, FDP and Matfield and say there are overated. The reality is that in any national side these guys would feature.

  Stats only tell half the story. The other half is reflected in the results. I preferred JW as a coach mainly becuase I understoond what he was saying and that gave me confidence in how he communicated with the team. PdV is doing a good job probably no better or worse than JW did in his initial part of his tenure. There is not much to compare only that I think (in myopinion) JW would have had a a better and more consistent set of results with a team that he had such a close connection with. This takes time so in time perhaps Pdv will do the same – thats if he isn’t removed prematurely. Nothing is inmpossible in SA Rugby

• 711.poppa69:
  28 Nov 2008, 05:27 am

  hahaha what a joke keo… very well, they may be better players, but they arent the better team, coming last in the 3N’s proves it… its because of poor journalists like yourself that expectation leads to the shattering such as the 19-0 loss… world champions coming last in a 3 horse race says so much for that mantle doesnt it…

  again Keo… I laugh at each and every one of your assessments, Ive seen your tipping skills throughout this years 3N’s and remind me how many of those did you tip correctly ??? not one was it… therefore, how can we logical take anything you say seriously, we can’t !!

• 712.poppa69:
  28 Nov 2008, 07:01 am

  #100 Puma: yeah but Puma, when England beat france in that semi final, they actually had a SA reffing the game who policed the french infringements… surely while you and your family were screaming for the AB’s to take a drop in that last 20 minutes you were also shouting at the referee (Wayne Barnes) for not giving at least one of the obvious infringements ??? surely a penalty should have been forthcoming… or the fact that before McAllister tryed his droppie attempt from near halfway, that the ref had called advantage, indicating NZ would get a penalty ?? which was never forthcoming….tell me, a drop goal attempt from 50 metres , do you
  consider that a fair advantage ???

  Its all good to blame the Ab’s for dumb play, I agree with you, but also the refs blind incompetance should not be forgotten.. how would the majority of SA supporters feel if it was them on the end of that reffing performance… I knwo you have to play to the ref, but then again, thats why it was so hard to win in SA before the apartheid ban, because they were shocking home town refs too…

  NZ were simply reffed out of that 1/4 final, nothing more nothing less… and then everyone labels them chokers… if you can honestly look at the 1/4 final and say the game was a fair, even game of rugby, then I will start to watch soccer…

• 713.mindispower:
  28 Nov 2008, 07:51 am

  I agree with the positivity and the rating of the players but you have been smoking some really bad majat my friend. We have always suffered a national identity crises which has carried over to our rugby. No my friend, we are not AB quality…but I do want to beat them everytime!

• 714.coma:
  28 Nov 2008, 07:57 am

  Morning all, Hey Jake, let me take the opertunity to congratulate you on this historic day. For those of you that don’t know, today, exactly 1 year and 39 days ago, Jake won us the World Cup. Thanks Jake!!!!

• 715.husky:
  28 Nov 2008, 09:25 am

  Jeez guys I can’t believe the hits this thread has generated but that’s what happens when history is re-written and re-written and re-written, sawing sawdust.

  Ziyaad, I’ve said first time you posted your screed (did you answer?), I suggest you read up what statistics are used for and how much credibility reliance on them generates. My view: not much unless you are looking at rainfall or traffic or something. Even there, be careful.

  Rugby is only a passing interest for me; my main focus is two wheeled sport (bicycle and motorcycle). Here, luck is ever present but seldom used as a point of argument. The rider/s focus on the track, their tactics and strengths, totally. Team management supports, keeps tabs on the opposition and adjusts the tactics accordingly. No one cares about statistics except to respect the opposition. Race is seldom (if ever) a factor as its first past the post. Lance Isaacs, Arushen Moodley, Nolan Hoffman, Seamus McCarthy et al have proved themselves.

  So, rather than bleat on about race, history and statistics, look at what existing and previous coaches have done right and wrong; improve the right and eliminate the wrong. Easy ha, ha. Then strategise around your team strengths and the opposition weaknesses.

  Finally the AB’s are the team to beat, no argument. They combine every facet, including importing players, a bit of strategic foul play (BoD & JS), working the refs, citings, the rules (ELV’s) and the IRB, with great rugby. Their Achilles heel is that they are so seldom put under pressure, particularly and suddenly by fired up teams they should beat easily and dodgy refs, that they do not know how to deal with it.

• 716.CraigE:
  28 Nov 2008, 10:05 am

  Ziyaad, is actually in love with PdV. He makes an argument for him, the same way my mom does for my dad when he has done something wrong. Maybe he is PdV’s forgotten love child.
  Anyway…. Players are coached to do things by the, and wait for it Ziyaad, ‘cos this will astound you, coach. Therefore, the coach must be held accountable for things he does wrong, as well as praised for things he gets right.
  Why PdV wanted to mess with a formula that worked in the world cup is, I think, the thing confused the public and the players. This was proven in the Tri-Nations by the 4 losses we suffered. That was wrong.
  However, it has been proven, as against the Wallabies at Ellis and the Poms at Twickenham, that reverting to a more structured formula made the public and the players feel more at ease. That was right.
  If PdV has worked that out in 1 short year, then he deserves more praise than is being bestowed upon him now, and we can all rest easy in the knowledge that he has figured out the best way for the Boks to play.
  If, however, he chooses to revert to the style of play employed in the 4 losses during the Tri-Nations, he would have learnt nothing, which would be a great pity and sure fire way of losing his job as coach.
  Let’s all hope that it is the former rather than the latter, as, I think, we ALL wish him only the best and truly want him to make a success of this opportunity. I know I do.

• 717.cab:
  28 Nov 2008, 11:45 am

  on the PdV/Meyer selection, PdV was correctly selected and won the vote.
  so far as merit or deservedness, one has to look at their coaching records.
  PdV’s highlight was guiding the U21 Boks to RWC success.
  HM’s highlight was having coached at S14 level for many seasons with a successful franchise that was the first SA side to lift the S14 trophy.
  To my mind, if HM was black and PdV was white, there’s be no dount who would be selected.

  However, it might be argued that due to inherent racism PdV has not been given an opportunity at S14 level to show what he is capable of. Hence the appointment.

• 718.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:25 pm

  #716 CraigE:

  A rather stupid and immature opening to your post.

  Yes, the coach is accountable for the game plan, strategy, etc., but how can the coach be accountable for a player kicking the ball out on the full, or spilling the ball 2metres from the line?

  And the rest of your post… well, had you read my posts properly, you’d have realised I’ve dealt with that already.

• 719.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:38 pm

  #715 husky:

  No, I didn’t see it. But I can’t agree that statistics are unreliable. Of course, statistics are not the only means to demonstrate a point, since there are always variables to consider. An obssession with figures and statistics is why Western Province consistently choose a Craven Week team with the 22 guys who fastest, strongest and biggest, with little consideration for skill and finesse. However, in the long run, statistics do reveal much about particular issues. Who can deny that South Africa’s record (AND FORM) prior to the WC was worse than New Zealand? And I used statistics to back that up. See what I’m saying?

  On the rest of your post, you take my use of historical evidence, the issue of race and statistics out of context. I’m not complaining about past seasons, I tried to put it into perspective to make particular points.

  - We were not the best team after the WC
  - Our most experienced squad ever too did not mean we were much better than before.
  - Australia have improved under Deans
  - New Zealand have not lost out much in terms of the match 22 they can field.

  Moreover, I made the point that we should embrace PdV’s new style (for a number of reasons), and then, in my only reference to race, I questioned the overwhelmingly negative responses about the coach.

• 720.bok2007:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:42 pm

  Ziyaad. All you post about are race related posts defending PDV then have the temerity to call other bloggers racist and race obsessed!?

• 721.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:43 pm

  #710 kesbok:

  Matfield, on his performances this year, would not be a tie-in for our Tri-Nations counterparts. Burger would never play openside flank for New Zealand or Australia (although they may make room for him at blindside, but then again, I do not question his talent, I question his ability “in the role of fetcher and a linking man”), and Fourie Du Preez has been poor throughout this year.

  However, the public see these players as indispensable, and despite their poor performances, they simply cannot be dropped. Remember the outrage when Burger was substituted against Australia? My point is that you cannot blame a coaching staff for that.

• 722.ziyaad:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:45 pm

  #720 bok2007:

  Show me where I do that. And show me how all my posts are race-related. Actually don’t. I don’t have time for you.

• 723.ARK:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm

  #95 ziyaad: Sorry Ziyaad but you quite simply are comparing Jake Whites success with PDV. You stating you are not is irrelevant your whole article is doing just that. Shame on you for belittling our World Cup victory and the magnificent performance of the whole squad, management and players.
  Gary Player famously responded when someone told him he was lucky; Its funny, the harder I practice, the luckier I get. South Africa won the world cup because they were the best prepared side going into the tournament, The All Blacks were not. That is why we had the luck go our way.
  It is very easy to manipulate the facts to suite your point of view as you have done. I found your article very subjective and your opinions righteous and arrogant and the give away at the end racist.

• 724.cab:
  28 Nov 2008, 12:53 pm

  #721 ziyaad:
  of course you can, Schalk burger should never be dropped.
  he gives his very best in every single game, until that sort of committment dies down, why would you even contemplate in doing such a thing? His tackle count and workrate is phenomenal for 80 mins. that substituion of Burger was correctly criticised, it was very poor one.
  Matfield is a different story, since it is arguable whether sometimes he rests on his laurels, but Burger never ever gives less than his level best with that Jersey on.

• 725.Nils:
  28 Nov 2008, 13:31 pm

  “The Springboks are a better team than the current All Blacks – and Saturday’s Test against the Poms at Twickenham will prove it.”

  Keo, I know you are a bit out of touch with reality after Boks brilliant performance in London. There is a very simple and cheap cure – just whisper quietly before/after breakfast ZERO TO NINETEEN, and common sense will slowly return to you.

• 726.hater:
  28 Nov 2008, 13:38 pm

  #610 julz: Ziyaad was absolutely right with that last comment. It was the best comment of all three the posts. Because its the truth! You know too. You don’t seem to think that he is wrong with the comment, just that he should not say it. Well he should. It’s about time people admit that that is the real problem people have with Pdv and his ideas.

• 727.hater:
  28 Nov 2008, 13:42 pm

  #723 ARK: You’re stupid. Go read it again. You’ve been fed the drivel the newspapers and the keo boys feed you, and you can’t see straight. Your comment confirms that you are the racist not Ziyaad. He is just trying to make you take off your rose tinted glasses.

• 728.hater:
  28 Nov 2008, 13:43 pm

  #720 bok2007: You’re stupid too. Go read it again.

• 729.hater:
  28 Nov 2008, 13:44 pm

  #716 CraigE: and you are actually in love with jake white.

• 730.hater:
  28 Nov 2008, 13:50 pm

  #707 ziyaad: Thanks for the posts. Now its easier for me to see who the racists are. They are the ones whose nerves were bothered by your last line. I am gunning them. They must come out and say its not true, but none have. Because it is. Their minds cannot give Pdv a chance or credit, cos their eyes cannot see past his skin.

• 731.Hurricane:
  28 Nov 2008, 14:01 pm

  #716 CraigE:
  “Why PdV wanted to mess with a formula that worked in the world cup is, I think, the thing confused the public and the players. This was proven in the Tri-Nations by the 4 losses we suffered. That was wrong.”

  CraigE i dont know what you are saying here but look at 2006-2007 Tri nations and tell me,where did Jake Whites coaching get him.His coaching worked in RWC cos look at the opposition.Easy,works against 8th and 7th placed IRB ranked teams but against NZ and OZ and France it hardly ever worked