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• 1.grant10:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:34 am

  dragon

• 2.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:34 am

  eish!

• 3.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:36 am

  Sweef soos ‘n arend…

• 4.iori Yagami:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:37 am

  #2 rangerman: Met eish ja!

• 5.iori Yagami:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:37 am

  Overcooked Dragons.

• 6.iori Yagami:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:39 am

  The Boks and the All Blacks are two totally different teams. We cant compare what they are going to do on Saturday with us. If they break our record score then so be it….doesnt mean they are better.

• 7.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:39 am

  Yep, that 19-0 at Newlands was the killer.
  But I agree, the Boks are on the move.
  PdeV has done well, he will be a WC winning coach, watch.
  There is a new spirit in the team now.

• 8.carol:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:40 am

  # grant10: Should be ” Should have whipped the All Blacks” Dragons……….
  Just watch the Boks in 2009. Look at the Keo poll. Most think our Lions will struggle on the tour against your Boks.

• 9.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:43 am

  i dont want to get into a pissing contest with anyone today so i will simply say that the boks progress is what concerns me at this stage.

  we have put on two massive puntings in the last three months and taken a disasterous 19-0 also.

  so yes keo, you are correct, we have stumbled. i believe we have the ability to fly though.

• 10.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:44 am

  #8 carol: We always pump up our Boks Carol. It never matters who we play against we always say Boks to win.

• 11.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:46 am

  #9 rangerman: Agree scots ranger. I just say lets be positive from now on. Have a good feeling for our team next year. As long as there are no injuries and please no injuries after the Lions tour as we need revenge against the All Blacks next year. We have the players and all have learned this year what works what does not so it will be a much better year next year. And we have a great 10 in the making that makes a huge difference aswell.

• 12.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:50 am

  #11 Puma: JUST ONE CHANCE!!!!!!!

  there are a whole bunch of scots in edinburgh who are still shaking their heads about the crazy saffa who partied with them into the wee hours, let me tell you.

• 13.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:51 am

  The All Blacks are going to dismantle England and throw them on the scrap heap……… I see a 60 pointer coming up Saturday !

• 14.Hier kom groot k..:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:51 am

  With Piet Helium settling down, Puke out of the way, a future flyhalf in Ruan, Habana showing glimpses of the past…

  The future looks good!

• 15.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:53 am

  I dare those with astute rugby knowledge to challenge me on the articles I am about to post, however, only after actually reading them in full.

  I understand the next 3 posts are long, and perhaps a bit convoluted at times, but I feel it is necessary to back up one’s opinions with statistics, reasoning and analysis, rather than merely stating outlandish comments.

  People say we should have won the Tri Nations at a canter, and use our lack of success in this tournament to pose questions of Peter de Villiers’s credentials, often in rather crude terms.

  I asked myself: “Why do these people think we should have won the Tri-Nations this year?” I pondered this for a second, and realised there were four reasons for this.

  - We won the World Cup.
  - Our current team is the most experienced (in terms of caps) ever.
  - Australia has a new coach and were poor in the WC.
  - New Zealand lost many players to overseas clubs.

  I’ve addressed all 4 aforementioned reasons, and came to the conclusion that perhaps our rugby journalists were much too optimistic, or perhaps just needing a reason to undermine Peter de Villiers.

  In my articles, I’ve addressed the issue of the game plan, and can state with absolute certainty that the majority of our rugby journalists have got it completely wrong.

  And finally, I can state with infallible certainty, that South Africa can be the dominant team in world rugby, if we can embrace change instead of continously criticizing it.

• 16.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:53 am

  We won the World Cup, so what?

  From January 2004 till August 2007, Jake White coached the Springboks to 26 victories from 44 games at a winning percentage of 59.09%, in the process propelling South Africa to 3rd in the IRB World Rankings. Thereafter, South Africa would go on to win there final 10 games under White, including the RWC final, to take the winning percentage to 66.67% and South Africa to number 1 in the IRB World Rankings.

  Let me just add that this is not a comparison between Jake White and Peter de Villiers – it is a summary of the Springbok’s record over a 4 year period (i.e. the gap between the 2003 and 2007 World Cups). It is just so happens that Jake White coached the Springboks for this entire period. Had there been 3 coaches in this time, I would have shown their combined records. Continuing…

  Of the last 10 games under Jake White, only 5 were against top eight opposition and none against the other top-seeded teams (New Zealand, Australia and hosts, France). Looking at each victory in isolation, there is little to suggest that South Africa were deserving of being ranked the best team in the world following their World Cup victory.

  The first victory was against Scotland in a WC warm game, which SA won 27 – 3. NZ would go on to beat this same Scottish side 41 – 3 with their ‘B’ side. The next victory was against an English side playing without a recognised flyhalf. As it were, they played a rugby league flanker (Andy Farrell) with a terrible left boot at 10. South Africa would then make heavy weather of beating Tonga and Fiji. The 37 – 20 victory against the latter was extremely flattering. Up until the 70th minute the score was 23 – 20, JP Pietersen had rescued what seemed a certain try and Fiji played with 14 men for 20 minutes.

  Meanwhile, New Zealand has pulverised all comers, racking up a perfect 20 points and achieving a points difference of 274 from 4 games. Australia too scored a perfect 20 points, but were a lot less emphatic, with a point different of 174. New Zealand would go on to lose to France in incredibly unlucky circumstances. Besides the clear forward pass in the Yannick Jauzion try, NZ also saw injuries to their star flyhalf (Dan Carter) and to their reserve flyhalf (Nick Evans). Also, suspect refereeing saw France concede just one, yes, one penalty, in the entire game. Australia, on the other hand, were absolutely hammered at scrum time and conspired to lose to an extremely average English side.

  The following weekend, South Africa played an Argentine side who had beaten France, Ireland and Scotland en route to the semi-final. South Africa won 37 – 13 in what was easily their best performance. In the other semi-final, England were extremely fortunate to score a try in the first minute, where the a cross kick bounced wickedly for Damien Traille and straight into the hands of Josh Lewsey who merely fell over the try line. France, despite dominating territory and possession, and playing in front of a partizan crowd, conspired to lose 9 – 14, with Wilkinson snapping over a drop in the dying minutes to put the game out of reach of a penalty.

  Then in the final, South Africa won by 5 penalties to 2. Also, England came within, literally, 1 inch of scoring a try which would have seen the score move to 9 – 8 and potentially 9 – 10. It is impossible to simply say that South Africa would have won anyway if England had scored this try, since by the Butterfly Effect, the entire game would have changed its course. However, South Africa held out to win the match and the trophy. This performance was enough to see South Africa move to No. 1 in the IRB rankings. On a brief overseas tour, South Africa whacked Wales 34 – 12 (officially ending Jake White’s tenure as coach with a record of 54-36-1-17) before losing to the Barbarians.

  During Jake White’s tenure, South Africa had a record of 9 from 22 (40.91%) against the other top-seeded nations in a 12/10 split home and away. Only once did South Africa score 4 tries or more. The best victories were 40 – 26 against New Zealand and 27 – 13 against France, and the worst losses were 0 – 49 against Australia and 33 – 6 against New Zealand, as well as 26 – 45 against New Zealand and 26 – 36 against France in South Africa. South Africa’s points difference over these 22 games was negative 94 (average of 4.3 points behind opponents).

  Would this type of record warrant number one status in any other sport? No. The fact is South Africa were at best the second strongest team in the world even after their World Cup victory. I am very proud of South Africa’s achievement, and do not dispute that they were the best team for the 6-week tournament, but like many things in life, they needed a bit of luck, nay, a lot of luck, to do it. However, I am making the point that without playing the top-seeded teams, the World Cup proved little in terms of us being the dominant team in world rugby.

• 17.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:53 am

  Should’ve could’ve didnt as the saying goes. fact is the ELV’s took us a while to get used to. The proof was in the pudding with our poor showing in super 14 rugby long before PDV/springbok season got into gear. Players like FDP were made to look ordinary while big vic has a 2 month french hangover from his vineyards finest.

• 18.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:54 am

  The other 3 reasons.

  There is a saying that there is no substitute for experience. However, it is also true that players who have achieved the greatest honour in the game have very little added incentive to continue at the same level.

  The two best players for South Africa this year have been Ad Jacobs and Jean De Villiers, both missing from the Rugby World Cup campaign. Coincidence? I think not. Having won the World Cup, many of the top players have experienced a slump in form, not because PdV has coached it out of them, as many writers would like to imply, but rather because these players do not have the same level of motivation and pressure for their place. I also believe most of these players were never that good anyway.

  Fourie Du Preez, in particular, is rather overrated. A great player, no doubt, but not nearly as positively influential as Augustin Pichot or George Gregan from 1994 to 2006. Far from being the number one scrumhalf in the world, he is not even the number one scrumhalf in South Africa on this year’s performances. Yes, he may have assisted three tries against England in the World Cup and scored an intercept against Argentina last year, but his overall game is extremely overrated. For instance, against New Zealand at Cape Town this year, I watched FdP kick out on the full outside the 22 three times. Also, when Francois Hougaard replaced FdP in the Super 14, suddenly the Bulls ran riot. Why? Because FdP puts up a box kick every second ruck, and under the ELV’s you need a level of flair. No wonder he stated after the first week that he disliked the new rules.

  Others I would add to the list are CJ van de Linde, Victor Matfield (against Tri Nations opposition), Schalk Burger, Juan Smith (this year only), Butch James and Bryan Habana. Schalk Burger has made about four steals this year, whilst a guy like George Smith made 5 pilfers for the Brumbies in the Stormers game alone. He has limited ball skills and seldom breaks tackles too. I would much rather have Richie McCaw (besides his fetching, tackling and leadership, think back to his left-footed grubber in the Cape Town game this year) and George Smith. In fact, personally I would play Heinrich Brussouw ahead of Burger, or else have Burger play somewhere else. Yes, he is a fantastic player, but his two Tri-Nations counterparts consistently out-perform him in the role of a fetcher and linking man.

  Bryan Habana is another. He is simply lightning fast, strong and has a good rugby brain. He has no step or hand off whatsoever, unlike a Christian Cullen for instance. He has always relied on intercepts, chip kicks and break aways for tries. I have seldom seen Habana beat a player one-on-one like a Jo Rockokoko, Shane Williams or even Lote Tuqiri of the current crop. He does not even come close to Cullen, Wilson or Campese. Again, great player, but not as good as we make him out to be.

  For these reasons, I believe it is absolutely wrong to insinuate that PdV is responsible for the poor form of so many ‘star’ players this year. It is also wrong to claim that there is a direct relationship between the number of caps in a squad and their performances on the field.

  With regards to Australia having a new coach – actually, this has been to theit benefit. Robbie Deans is one of the most tactically astute coaches of our time. You can’t put a price on 8 times Super 12/14 champion with the Crusaders. Remember, Dan Carter and Richie McCaw have only been around for the last 3 triumphs.

  And yes, New Zealand losing so many players did impact their performance. But not much. Their player depth is STILL greater than ours. The Super 14 results bear testimony to this. New Zealand had teams ranked 1st, 4th, 6th, 7th and 11th. We had teams ranked 4th, 5th, 10th, 13th and 14th. Enough said? I think so.

• 19.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:54 am

  Why PdV is right.

  Say for instance Raphael Nadal had won Wimbledon in 2007 (to those who don’t follow tennis, he lost 3 sets to 1 to Roger Federer in 2007). Say for instance, en route to the final, he did not play any one of Roger Federer (who let’s say bowed out to an injury), Novak Djokovic (who was perhaps beaten by an old veteran in the quarters) or Andy Roddick. So in the final, Nadal beats Lleyten Hewitt by 3 sets to 2 in a hard fought but not particularly skilled final.

  In the process, Nadal wins Wimbledon without having a good serve and with a very limited ability at the net, even though these are considered two of the most crucial aspects of grass court play. Naturally, Nadal should want to improve his game, even though he has already won Wimbledon, to ensure he can continue to dominate the men’s game. But instead, Nadal’s trainer says: “Screw this, you won Wimbledon, let’s not work on your game. Let’s stick to what works. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Sound familiar?

  In the same way, South Africa was a very limited side in 2007. They relied on stout defense (like Nadal, who used to just around like a hare returning most attacks) and intercepts or breakaways (again, like Nadal, who waited for his opponents to make mistakes) but had very little flair or attacking prowess of their own (Nadal, last year, could not win points at the net or ace an opponent). Roger

  So PdV was left with a choice like Nadal’s trainer would have been in the alternate reality I’ve presented. He could continue with Jake White’s method and be satisfied with a 41% record against our closest opponents, or try to teach our players to compete toe-to-toe with New Zealand. After all, South Africa has a much bigger player base – surely we can find 15 players with at least the equivalent talent but also the traditional physical prowess? All we needed to do, believed PdV, was to coach these players to think for themselves. To work outside a designated game plan, to see spaces and to capitalize on over laps.

  Now here’s where are our rugby journalists would like us to believe that all our losses transpired as a result of run-at-all costs rugby, whilst all our massive victories came due to ‘structured’ rugby, which has essentially become a less blatant word for ‘Jake White’ rugby. Let me remind you that the 16 – 9 loss against Australia is Brisbane was against a fresh Aussie team, not bruised after two tough encounters with NZ, and was not because the Springboks ran the ball from everywhere. Deans is a good coach, and he had the benefit of video’s of the Springboks play, whilst PdV had not seen the Aussies play under Deans at all. Let me also add that under White, the Springboks one just one game against Australia in Australia, and that came against an injury-ravaged Australia side who STILL completely dominated the match.

  Then came the 19 – 0 loss against NZ. I had the benefit of watching NZ practice live, and I will tell you this much, I have never seen a team more focussed. They knew they simply had to win this encounter to stand a chance at the Tri Nations trophy. Meanwhile, the Springboks seemed more interested in Percy Montgomery become the first Springbok to reach 100 games. In any case, far from running at all costs, the mistakes the Boks made in that first half were kicking mistakes! Please, watch the game again! Between Butch James and Fourie Du Preez we kick the ball out on the full 5 times in the first half alone! 5 times! Richie McCaw slid through a left footed grubber and the ball bounced kindly enough for Conrad Smith to stick his right finger on the ball. 0 – 5 half time. Then came a well-structured try by Dan Carter in the 67th minute, though not before Montgomery had missed two kicks which would have put us in the lead. At 0 – 12 in the 73rd, we HAD TO RUN the ball from our own try line, and in the process JdV threw an intercept from which Mealamu scored. 0 – 19, but not at all representative of the game, and not at all borne of out ‘risky’ rugby, up until we really had to. You can’t play ‘safe’ rugby when you’re 12 – 0 behind.

  The 27 – 15 loss the next week had much to do with refereeing and some poor finishing in the Aussie 22. It was similar to the England SA game, except with roles reversed. The only difference is that the Springboks didn’t lose the ball going wide, they lost it in close quarters! CJ van de Linde lost the ball trying to burrow his way to the line, and twice other players (whom I cannot recall) were turned over not more than 5 metres out. Australia, on the other hand, managed to score with their first attack. It was a simple case of capitalizing on opportunities (exactly what PdV is trying to teach the players!) with flair and not unstructured rugby! Overall, it appeared as if the Boks dropped their heads and ended up losing worse than what they should have since they knew their chance of winning the Tri Nations depended on scoring 4 tries and securing a good victory margin.

  Then 53 – 8. How this can be said to be Jake White rugby is unbelievable. Tell me, what was our biggest victory margin against top tier opposition in 22 games under Jake White? Oh yes, 14 points. 45 points is what we won this game by. And to say Australia were uninterested is also false. Had they won this game, they would have won the Tri Nations. Either they’re stupid, or someone is trying to detract from the brilliance of this victory. It was a simple case of the players finally getting it right, like they did against England this past weekend.

  And here’s where I don’t get it. People have this ridiculous belief that South Africa must stick to their ‘traditional’ strenghs. (i.e. boring, defensive, kicking rugby). Huh?! Just because some guy 25 years ago couldn’t pass accurately on both hands doesn’t mean, out of a crop of about 50 000 aspiring rugby players, we can’t find 22 who have flair, intelligence and precision combined with brute strength, power and aggression. We have the talent. Guys with speed and good ball handling skills combined with size. Look no further than Pierre Spies, Ryan Kankowski, Beast Mtawarira, Andries Bekker and coming through the ranks, Heinrich Brussouw and Nick Koster. I didn’t even mention backline players. Imagine a South Africa with the ability to run the ball from deep, patiently gaining ground through multiple phases and then scoring in the corner with the wing ala the team motto. Some guy in the week (I think it may have been Jeremy Guscott) said that the day South Africa find their 3 quarter line (i.e. spread the ball to their wings) the world of rugby will tremble before our might. Remember, it’s only risky if the players do not have the skills. And the skills can only really be taught on the pitch, if the team is willing to give it a go.

  Instead of blasting PdV for trying new things, for trying to take South Africa to the next level, look at what South Africa can do when they get it right. 53-8 against Australia and 42-6 at Twickenham. We are making the ‘sacrifices’ now, whilst players adapt to the increased flair and skill involved with PdV’s game plan, so that by WC 2011, the next Wimbledon, we can play New Zealand and know we won’t need an intercept and load of luck to win. This should make us excited about the future of South Africa, not scared. But then again, I’m afraid to say I don’t think it is the quality of rugby that scares some people in this country, it’s the race of the people providing this quality.

• 20.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:54 am

  pardon me…had*

• 21.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 11:58 am

  As much as I pride myself on our worldcup, reality is that NZ were consistently the best team 4 years prior to that…the new 4 year cycle has only just begun and right now NZ hasnt done anything to convince me they are going to be the same dominant force til 2011. Boks are on the rise can can only get better, that said, there is 1 reason why australiasia will always topple us regardless of our abundance of raw talent, and that is coaching structures/player management and development. With the right coaching structures and platform I can very well argue that a team like The Cheetahs or even The Lions have far superior RAW talent compared to the hurricanes or brumbies yet these teams will always pip us due to the discipline and solid coaching culture in the tasman

• 22.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:01 pm

  the boks would have been massacred if we didn’t bring an extra attacking element to our game after the worldcup. I definitely feel PDV tried to do too much too soon but fact is we were always going to hit speed bumps this year. ELV’s changed the game dramatically from what we experienced in the worldcup and b4…the super 14 was proof of this, where The Chapmion Bulls were made to look worse than the Queensland Reds academy. We seem to have finally found the right balance and as I said before, we’re on the rise

• 23.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:02 pm

  lol keo, big hits coming on this one, kiwis are going to be jumping.

  the french are just as weary of white saffas as anyone else, hell wait until you cornered by a french lefty journo, just say ‘Vichy’, big tears. besides its individuals that either confirm or tear down the stereotype.

• 24.grootblousmile:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:03 pm

  #15 ziyaad:
  #19 ziyaad:
  #18 ziyaad:

  Do you honestly expect us to read the whole book you wrote ??

• 25.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:06 pm

  #16 ziyaad:
  I have already told you why this post is dishonest.
  In your opening paragraph you make the specific decision to only select a portion of White’s career and insist on making this comparison against PdV to prove White inferior.
  At least play with a straight bat and compare apples to apples.
  If you want to selectively choose your stats, then look at PdV 3n, with 2 from 6, 33%.

  White’s first season is exactly the same as PdV’s, 9 wins from 13 games, no better and no worse.

• 26.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:07 pm

  #16 ziyaad: #19 ziyaad: #19 ziyaad:
  Third day in a row you have posted that…..and I still can get myself to work through all that!

• 27.WP Till I Die:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:08 pm

  #16 ziyaad: #18 ziyaad: #19 ziyaad:

  Some excellent stuff there. You clearly worked on these for a long time, I thoroughly enjoyed reading those.

• 28.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:09 pm

  #25 cab:

  I say his entire record actually afterwards, I leave out the World Cup because I wanted to show our record during the 4 regular seasons.

  White’s first season was 8 from 12 btw, so yes, it was worse!

• 29.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:09 pm

  #26 Pietman:

  2nd time in 3 days. Last time it was on dead threads.

• 30.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:11 pm

  #25 cab:

  And please mate, it’s not a comparison (see paragraph two in post 16). The point is in that last post. I just needed to back it up.

• 31.chris_h:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:13 pm

  wow keo some massive calls there…
  ps I’m white and I dont plan on living with the baggage of apartheid for the rest of my life

• 32.Puma:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:15 pm

  #12 rangerman: lol. sounds like you had a great time there in Scotland. They love to party I told you so.

• 33.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:16 pm

  #28 ziyaad:
  the world cup was part of his season, indeed its why sub-strength teams were sent downunder for better or worse.

  thought it was 9 from 13, but will check, that is the stat that counts, not any other manipulated stat where you decide what counts as a season.

  bear in mind the slight issue of inheriting a team ranked 6th in the world that have just been beaten by scotland and knocked out of a RWC in the 1/4′s, as compared to inheriting a balanced team ranked no 1 in the world too.

  As for this article, i do not agree with it and PdV needs to be given some space, there have been some outstanding results this season.

• 34.Pietman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:16 pm

  #25 cab:
  Don’t know if you get SuperSport over there, but on Monday night’s program the overwhelming majority of callers reckoned that PdeV may become the best SA coach ever, and Joost and Breyten concurred.
  Many interesting reasons were put forward during the show to support those views.

• 35.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:18 pm

  #19 ziyaad: ziyaad, i am not sure if you are a journo or just another blogger, but if you are not a journo you should be one mate.

  brilliantly written and i couldnt agree more with the sentiment. in fact, sadly your level of analytical, incisive summation of the facts is sadly lacking in most of our sports writing. it baffles me to think that in a nation as sports mad as south africa, we are fed soundbites and snippets passing as sports reporting. and this on a daily basis!

  one thing though, the last line ruins the entire piece mate. many rugby minds disagree with PdV’s approach, rightly or wrongly and to equate dissent with race is to stifle debate and destroy the chance of honest discussion on rugby matters.

  leave race out of it. again, well written.

• 36.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:21 pm

  #33 cab:

  Fair enough.

  And sorry about the other day. I feel a fair degree of frustration when I see the things people say on this site, and perhaps I took it on you.

  Cheers.

• 37.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:22 pm

  #34 Pietman:
  interesting, i see no reason why that cannot be the case, but am also not going to tear down the results and achievements of a previous system to make the current one look better. huge insecurity. if ppl dont want to acknowledge a RWC that is your problem, but it happened, as they say, ‘look to the scoreboard’.

• 38.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:23 pm

  #35 rangerman:

  Thanks.

  And yeah, I know the race thing is tired, and trust me, I don’t want to cause conflict, but I wonder sometimes. If you read what people post on this site, it’s difficult to believe it’s anything else.

  But yes, I agree mostly.

• 39.cab:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:24 pm

  #36 ziyaad:
  no problem, meant nothing to me. you can put forward your opinion and i will put forward mine, at the end of the day JW brought the RWC home and PdV has achieved two record victories against some of our greatest rivals and a much soughtafter win away in NZ.

• 40.Brendope:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:25 pm

  Ziyaad,

  There are some things you have failed to mention. The team jake white took over, was is disarray. He had to go through some of the pain of losses while rebuilding and giving the team a foundation. By 2008 the team is very different to the one in 05/06 etc. Similar to your ‘butterfly effect’ argument, it should also be pointed out that Jake white may have achieved similar or better results had he been in charge this year.

  I understand your argument and I understand that the greater good of adapting our style of play may cost us painful losses and inconsistent performances but please don’t be selective in your logic.

  Also, I think you should concede, expansive play and keeping ball in hand and attacking is also linked to structure. good attack starts with good defense, earning the right to swing it wide means winning the battle up front and competing well in the set piece. So the fact that this team does have the forward oriented strengths that jake white was so fond of, probably contributes to them being able to play expansively now.
  It is not as simple as saying , just keep ball in hand and keep attacking.

  Interesting point of view, but either a limited one or one where you have deliberately failed to acknowledge the necessity of structure.

• 41.tight head:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:25 pm

  Surely we are not so simplistic that we are waiting to see if NZ can beat the Poms by 36 points or more, and if not we are going to declare ouselves better than them?

• 42.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:26 pm

  #36 ziyaad: Perhaps the best written piece i’ve ever seen on this site (including keos)….and good statistical research as well. When you present facts, few people can argue. I especially concur on your point regarding WC07 players not as driven as their counterparts (such as JDV AND adi). I winced when FDP and habana came out with their whinging about the ELV’s after the first week…it reeked of a defeatist attitude before the season has even begun. Also agree with you regarding FDP…a good scrummie but definitely overrated, and your facts support this claim

• 43.stodders:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm

  #41 tight head: Yep

• 44.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm

  #38 ziyaad: sadly there will always be the ******** on either side who inflame the opinions of all of us “middle ground” rugby lovers, but i refuse to be drawn into a mud slinging match like that.

  again, well written, i may copy and paste it into an email for my mates and family (even though some of them may lambaste me for it ).

  i will give you credit. cool?

• 45.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:28 pm

  #41 tight head: hahahahaha, that gave me a bit of a laugh as well

• 46.hater:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:29 pm

  #24 grootblousmile: Read it!!!! It’s great.

  #19 ziyaad: Thank you for saying it!!!! Great posts, all three. I knew I was not the only person seeing the perpetual Pdv lynching for everything. And I was getting sick of the racist word “quota” being used for players that actually were performing well. And its great that you tell the truth about where this ” FEAR” of the SA rugby journo’s and public come from:

  “But then again, I’m afraid to say I don’t think it is the quality of rugby that scares some people in this country, it’s the race of the people providing this quality.”

  It is sooooooo true. And they know it. DAAAAANNNNKIE!!!!!!!

• 47.asha1:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:29 pm

  #19 ziyaad:
  very long post
  but
  i agree!

• 48.flanka:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm

  #40 Brendope: I dont think anyone is trying to take any credit away from jake white for how he contributed towards our development of a disciplinr with regards to structure HOWEVER his main point is that we now have to evolve and add other weapons to our armoury. Just because we’ve decided to invent guns doesnt mean any disrespect to the man who made bows and arrows….but if we keep using bows and arrows we will die!

• 49.rangerman:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm

  #46 hater: eish.

• 50.ziyaad:
  27 Nov 2008, 12:31 pm

  #40 Brendope:

  Yes, structure is crucial.

  But you also need to be able to think on your feet. When there’s a 3 man overlap, even if it’s inside your own 22, spread the ball! By the way, I did not say South Africa should abandon structure, and neither is PdV. What he is saying, is that players need better skill levels so that they can be better with ball in hand and consequently better at constructing tries.

  You write well. I’m surprised you didn’t realise this already?

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