Player 23: Proving a point
24 Jun 2009
Did any of the Emerging Boks advance their Test claims at Newlands on Tuesday night?
When the senior Bok squad for the Lions series was named, Zane Kirchner’s name was missing despite the fact that he’d been outstanding for the Bulls in the Super 14. Bok coach Peter de Villiers admitted Kirchner had been unlucky not to be selected, but said he had three players who could play fullback in Frans Steyn, JP Pietersen and Jaque Fourie (although none of them are regarded as specialist No 15s).
So Kirchner had something to prove against the Lions’ dirt-trackers last night, although he didn’t get off to the best of starts when he had a kick charged down that led to Keith Earls’s try.
Earl Rose was another Emerging Bok keen to show that he can excel at this level, but he had two kicks charged down and failed to pass on two occasions when the home side had turned over possession.
Jano Vermaak – who many think should be in the Bok squad ahead of Ricky Januarie – had a decent game at scrumhalf, but didn’t kick all that well from the base.
Do you think Kirchner, Rose or Vermaak deserve to be in the Bok squad, based on last night’s performance? Or is it unfair to judge them because of the poor weather conditions at Newlands?
Have your say, as Vodacom’s Player 23, below.
89 Comments
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24 Jun 2009, 11:19 am
#43 BLUERUGGA1:
yes, you right and Adams
24 Jun 2009, 11:20 am
Impressed with Adams…..maybe he should move to Province so he can get more game time. He’s being wasted at the Bulls.
The 3 losies were brilliant!! Potgieter was MOM IMO.
24 Jun 2009, 11:20 am
#46 Harlequin:
The pressure is arguably more on the shoulders of Ruan Pienaar than Earl Rose. The pressure on Pienaar is real as it is weight of expectation and he was under a lot of pressure from people saying MS should start in place of him. Remember FH is not his favoured position either. The media and especially the Lions media were saying he’d be a weak point and that he might cost the Boks the game. His goal kicking was analysed to death and very few people thought he’d play well. THAT is real pressure. Earl Rose is under pressure because PdV has annoited him as the Tiger Woods of rugby. Thats not pressure its just people watching his game closely to see how good he really is. I think a lot of people suspect he isnt as good as Div makes out. Again the only guy to play is our national coach. He’s the one solely responsible for Rose’s current position.
24 Jun 2009, 11:22 am
Vermaak was good but his kicking game sucked. Thats where Rory K edges him.
24 Jun 2009, 11:22 am
#52 CenturionShark (aka LondonShark):
Howzit boet asked on one of the other threads: how was watching the game on Saturday? Did you okes have your braai?
Agree on Adams but you know playing at the Bulls might be helping him hugely with FdP there to learn from?
24 Jun 2009, 11:26 am
#55 Thameside Bok fan:
Huh, please refresh my memory? I did indeed braai though….
24 Jun 2009, 11:28 am
I wonder what the SH dirt trackers would look like and if they would beat the Lions dirt trackers. I would say yes!!
24 Jun 2009, 11:29 am
#56 CenturionShark (aka LondonShark):
Im sure at one stage I was mentioning the weather in London was good braaing weather and you said something about it? *could* possibly be mistaken though last week’s blogging got very frantic at times!
24 Jun 2009, 11:32 am
#58 Thameside Bok fan:
Ha ha, yep that was not me.
I’m back in SA.
24 Jun 2009, 11:36 am
#59 CenturionShark (aka LondonShark):
Haha ahh well at least you watched the game properly then!
Im out of here for now got some work to do will catch up with you guys later! Cheers
24 Jun 2009, 11:38 am
Kirschner did alright aginst last night considering he is still young and has been limited to CC and Super rugby exposure. He must be given the same oportunities to develope into a Bok as players like Steyn, Pienar etc.
Should he be in the current Bok squad to face the Lions? I wouldn’t say no but rather not yet. To throw him in the deep end like that would only destroy a very bright rugby future. He made a crucial mistake last night but if allowed to develope over the next 18 months we will be seeing an excelent and permanent addition to the Bok starting line up. Sory Jantjies you are up against it here mate!)
Earl Rose, well the term “EISH” is the first thing that comes to mind when hearing him being mentioned in the same sentance as Rugby or the Springboks. It is blatantly obvious this is a subject that is going to come up again and again because somehow somebody out there thinks he has something called tallent or the slightest pice of rugby playing ability so here is my 2c worth:
All 45,999,999 South Africans know he is DEFENSIVE LIABILITY which has been proved time and time again in all of the S14 games he has ever played in. deVilliers please CATCH A WAKE UP and see the talent that is right in front of you!!!BURTON FRANCIS, BURTON FRANCIS,BURTON FRANCIS,BURTON FRANCIS!
I do not agree with anybody who says Jano Vermaak is Bok material, because he kicks just too much for my liking and this showes a lack of game reading ability. My first choice as a player of the future is without a doubt Heini Adams. He is a no nonsence kind of player who does the basic scrummy duties exceptionaly well. He also surprised me with his kicking game last night because he got right in twenty minutes what Vermaak could not do in 60. Once again it is a natural ability issue here and when it comes to the crunch you need players whith Rugby ability and BMT, something Adams proved last night. What proof do I have, well just go back to the last minute try from last nights game to see how quickly he cleared the ball from the ruck…
(P.S I’m a Sharks supporter, but these guys are pure class and must be developed!)
24 Jun 2009, 11:44 am
#46 Harlequin: The booing at Rose was disgusting to say the least!!!!! Those “fans” should not be allowed near a rugby stadium!
24 Jun 2009, 11:45 am
No, no, no. Not one of them performed worthy of bok inclusion.
The three loosies, Sykes and Adams are all pushing hard though.
I was actually impressed by Newman – he performed reasonably well actually, despite receiving several hospital passes from Pantzerkid.
24 Jun 2009, 11:50 am
Vermaaks kicking was not spot on last night but compared to Januaries base kicking it was magnificent! I was/am a Januarie fan when he gets it right, but right now he is kak!
He falls into the same category as Rose in my opinion, talented, skillful but not a professional! Both need to work on their conditioning and mastering their skill set.
24 Jun 2009, 11:52 am
#61 Sharptooth: I agree on Adams! The game definitely seemed to pick up a few gears as soon as he came onto the field! Would rather have him covering for FDP in the Boks than Januarie (based on current form)!
24 Jun 2009, 11:56 am
Brilliant: Kruger, Vermeulen
Played well: Basson, Deysel, Steenkamp
Played Ok: Vilindlu, Vermaak, Potgieter, Sykes, Maku, Du Preez
Played kak: Kirchner, Rose
Should never touch a rugby ball again: Newman
Did he even play: Van Rensburg
24 Jun 2009, 12:09 pm
I have a question for Keo :
Is there some sort of mandate from SA Rugby that commentators are not allowed to say bad things about players when they are playing ?
They only had good things to say about Rose and Kirshners performances!!!
24 Jun 2009, 12:09 pm
Apart from the players, the commentators should also be reviewed. I understand that these guys are basically cheerleaders for supersport, not analysts, but Naas’ half-time analysis during the test was UNBELIEVABLY bad. The other guys aren’t much better. Do the British take our feed or do they have an entriely separate infrastructure out here? I’d rather listen to anyone else…..
24 Jun 2009, 12:13 pm
#68 Walt1:
Koubus and Breyton are useless!!!! Its embarrasing! We need to get past this ‘past player quota presenter’ thing!
Bob has potential but tries way to hard.
I love my dutchie brothers but please let English folks do English stuff and Afrikaans guys Afrikaans stuff.
24 Jun 2009, 12:14 pm
That Mathew Pearce (I think thats his name) is good though. Very sharp and much better than Blades.
24 Jun 2009, 12:38 pm
Yes, Kirchner had a kick charged down. His first ever in a test. Maybe it took him one kick to get used to less space and more pressure. But he handled it from there on. He will be easily capable of making the step up to the Boks. His positioning is great, he has good skills, a big boot, fast feet. He rarely misses tackles or even gets wrong footed – that is special. He is also an attacking fullback – he knows when and how to join the line – that is also special.
He made another mistake in that he should have drawn his man and then passed – for a try. So a try went begging. Again that was the beginning of the game, and he can be forgiven for thinking the ball should go to the wings in a breakout. With a couple more games, he will settle and he will be able to play what is in front of him better.
24 Jun 2009, 12:41 pm
Its a pity that Zane is now in direct competition with Steyn. Because Steyn can also be specia, but has had a lot less experience in that position. It will take a while before Steyn can join the line or tackle like Zane without being wrong footed. The trick is to show a gap to ensure that teh attacker takes it, so that you have certainty about which direction he is moving in, but then being able to make the tackle anyway.
24 Jun 2009, 12:43 pm
#72 SjamBok: If you rely on reflexes to be able to follow a guy steping at speed, then you will always be too slow. You have to use wile and prejudgement of where the attacker will be.
24 Jun 2009, 12:54 pm
#62 Sharksgirl:
They were not booing Rose, they were booing the touch judge who didn’t award enough meters to a ball Rose kicked out.
Pearce was mistaken and misled the whole country. Watch is again.
Loved the fact that when Vickery came on the whole crowd shouted BEEEAAAST everytime he touched the ball. hehehe
24 Jun 2009, 12:59 pm
And I was impressed with all the players considering how terrible the conditions were. The Lions had more handling errors and Rose and Kirschner were fairly safe under the high ball considering the wind and rain.
Really not bad rugby considering.
24 Jun 2009, 13:00 pm
#74 middles: Okai, I misunderstood, thought they were booing Rose and really felt very sorry for him!
I loved the Beeast part too, but felt very sorry for Vickery as well, it must have taken real guts to go out again after the mauling he got on Saturday!
24 Jun 2009, 13:07 pm
#76 Sharksgirl:
For sure, but it was the nicest way of reminding old phil about the can of whip-ss opened upon him.
You can be a rugby legend for 10 years but just one bad game:
What does the whole world remember Mike Catt for?
24 Jun 2009, 13:13 pm
Adams over januarie. Duane was good but dont see how he will overtake the current crop. Potgieter also superb but Brussouw edges him
24 Jun 2009, 13:35 pm
#71 SjamBok:
Fair enough… but he made the same mistakes in the S14 final.
first kick straight to donald who countered and put Kahui away.
a few minutes later, came into the line and changed angle staight into the defnse.
not long after had Akona outside but failed to put him away and went alone.
He seems to struggle with the ball playing aspect, ie timing of the pass. either too early or holds on too long.
just my opinion.
24 Jun 2009, 14:00 pm
All 4 of the Losies – not today, but soon. Deysel for Juan Smith when he next gets knocked out and ends his rugby career
Vermaak ahead of the Ricksta
As for the rest, too soon to tell re the props. The Locks were ok, but not Bok material, the hooker was garbage.
Re the backline,
Rose – hell no
Newman – no until he can catch and pass
Wings – no, should have started with Demas
Kirsch – bad night, but still class. Yes
24 Jun 2009, 14:19 pm
#5 Supa 14 Kampioene!:
I agree fully with your view.
Kirchner did not have a good game.
I thought Vermaak had a good game, not brilliant but i guess the weather didnt help at all..
As for Rose … I have never been a Rose fan, but i thought to myself , if PDv and Jake White both say there is something in this guy, who am i to say he is ****. I am still waiting for him to prove to us that he is that good.
I feel sorry for Rose, due to PDv’s comments Rose is now under a magnifying glass by the public , so any small mistake will be blown out of the water.
My biggest concern now is what happens when we win the test this weekend and with that the series. Will PDv and co start “experimenting” in the last test, by this i mean maybe play Rose off the bench.
To wear the bok jersey you have to earn it, and i feel that by giving Rose a cap it will cheapen the jersey .
PDv has made some shocking decisions in the past so dont be surprised if next week you see Rose on the bench.
Lets all hope and pray my worries are not realised next week.
24 Jun 2009, 14:20 pm
Not sure if i was watching the same game????? the rain did not only fall on Rose, but on all the players. How can Naas say at half time that Rose was having a decent game?? From memory a player that makes 1 tackle and misses 2 is not having a good game (am i being a bit unfair or is a 33% tackle success rate ok in the modern game?) Maybe a couple of knock-ons, 2 hospital passes, kicks charged down does still constitute a decent game for some.
Nothing personal I just feel he has been too hyped up and is not for the modern game.
Others that i felt were pretty good, Vermeulen, Deysel and great pressure kick from De Waal (he should have taken the previous one too)
ps. booing any player really sucks
24 Jun 2009, 16:47 pm
The players i thought did well were Deysel, Potgieter, Vermuelen. On that showing Heinie Adams very promising, I thought better than Vermaak. Would definitely be a better option than Januarie. I actually felt Rose showed potential,he’s certainly better at flyhalf than at fullback, but still not test quality yet.
24 Jun 2009, 17:24 pm
rose still has never shown any form of dominance in any position?
he didn’t play that badly but we all know he is not a bad player.
he is average
and average players should not be a Bok.
even if you dissect every aspect of flyhalf anf fullback you are left asking the question?
What is his weapon? What is he good at?
Is he a greater kicker?….no
Is he a great defender?….no
Is he great with ball in hand?….no
Does he have great vision and game reading?….no
does he have blistering pace?….no
what exactly he so good at that we are all missing?
24 Jun 2009, 17:29 pm
I thought the entire pack was brilliant for what it is worth.
22/23 year tight forwards and looseforwards should not be beating up on battle hardened internationals.
The Lions management will be very worried this morning?
what are they going to do?
no one that they select is going to spark such a significant turnaround.
If the bok players as well as the management play smart.
the Boks will crack 50 at loftus.
24 Jun 2009, 19:15 pm
#67 GP: That commentary from Skinstad was pityful. Going on about how Rose ‘saved them through defense”? WTF is he feeling sorry for Snor or is this also a mandate from SARU.
Let’s face it, Rose, as we have all said, is not worthy of being Orange Boy. Absolutely pathetic on defense, took the wrong option with ball in hand and looked well out of his depth.
24 Jun 2009, 19:17 pm
I was happy Willem gets to take the hard kick, Rose runs away and Willem turns to hero. When the chips are down, the real men stand up and the boys run. And I don’t think Willem is all that special either but it shows you where Rose is at.
24 Jun 2009, 20:57 pm
HAVE YOUR SAY WITH GARY GOLD ON HIS BLOG GUYS.
http://coaching.blog.rugbyiq.com/
cheers
25 Jun 2009, 10:40 am
Look, fact is, Rose gets booed because he is so talked up and to be honest,I have played against better fly-halves at amateur club level…this is South africa, most of the guys sitting in the stands have played with better fly-halves at high school level.
We’re not stupid, we’re a nation that knows our rugby.
We also hold those that are good enough to step up to the professional level on a podium and present them with godly status and happily welcome the fact that they make insane amounts of money because we love them, they represent us and we feel they deserve every penny.
So when a KAK player like rose comes along and the public disagree with his erratic style which IMO is not subject to the conditions on the night, but as we all know is his make-up, then they feel the only way opportunity they have to be heard is to boo.
BUT!!!I HAVE THE SOLUTION…….
They only boo because they dont know that they can voice their opinions any other way…Keo stick up a billboard at every stadium with the slogan, “DON’T BOO, LOG ONTO KEO.CO.ZA AND MOAN ONLINE WITH EVERYONE ELSE.DON’T DELAY,***** TODAY AND BE HEARD!”
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