Shattering the McGeechan myth
28 Jun 2009
Hopefully now the perception that Ian McGeechan is a rugby genius has been well and truly shattered.
McGeechan is revered in the northern hemisphere, enjoying god-like status in Scotland and with London Wasps, where he has served as director of rugby since 2005.
The travelling media have written him up to the point that one could be mistaken for thinking that all a team needs to do to ensure success is to employ him. A closer inspection of his record, particularly with the Lions, suggests this is not the case.
In five years as Scotland coach, McGeechan won one Five Nations title (a Grand Slam). He failed to secure any silverware in his seven-year tenure at Northampton, and in five seasons at Wasps, has won the Anglo Welsh Cup, European Cup and Premiership title.
It is, however, with the British & Irish Lions that the myth that is McGeechan is exposed. After Saturday’s defeat to the Springboks, McGeechan’s record with the Lions reads – played 14 won seven.
A 50% return for a coach who has had the elite players from the northern hemisphere at his disposal is hardly impressive. In fact, it’s decidedly mediocre.
Last week McGeechan made the fundamental and ultimately costly error of not replacing tighthead prop Phil Vickery, who was clearly been mauled by a relative rookie in Beast Mtawarira. McGeechan was spared criticism for the error, with the vast majority of his disciples in the travelling press overlooking it, preferring to lament what they believed was inconsistent law application by referee Bryce Lawrence.
Let us not forget the fact that the Springbok coaching staff did everything in their power to aid McGeechan’s cause by making a spate of perplexing substitutions, in which he hooked the experienced quartet of John Smit, Bakkies Botha, Fourie du Preez and Jean de Villiers.
On Saturday his Lions were tamed once again, despite being the superior side for the majority of the contest.
They failed to close the game out when they should have, and tactically they were flawed. Injuries to key players had an adverse effect, but that cannot be viewed as the sole reason for the defeat.
A coach who only managed a 50% record with the southern hemisphere’s elite players wouldn’t have made it past one tour. McGeechan’s been rewarded with four.
McGeechan is a good coach – his record at club level reflects this. But he is not the guru the northern hemisphere would have us believe he is. His ceiling is club rugby. The sooner the Lions realise this the better for them.
There is no room for sentiment in professional rugby. If the Lions hope to win their first series in three tours, in fact, if the Lions hope to win their first Test since 2001, McGeechan must be shown the door.
By Ryan Vrede
177 Comments
28 Jun 2009, 12:57 pm
Bokke!
28 Jun 2009, 12:57 pm
At last someone has said it!
Who masterminded the series victory in ’97? It was largely down to Jim Telfer and the work he did with the forwards, not McGeechan!
28 Jun 2009, 12:58 pm
Mythical Dragon
28 Jun 2009, 13:00 pm
Seems like Ryan is upset with Mcgeechan… He was supposed to get rid of PDV so that all white SAFFAs could claim rugby back as their own…LMAO
28 Jun 2009, 13:02 pm
#2 jonnymain: No the mstermid of the ’97 Lions series victory not McGeechan it was Carel Du Plessis.
oh it is very true.
28 Jun 2009, 13:02 pm
No no no! This tabloid article is unnecessary and only serves to perpetuate the myth of South African rugby fans and hacks being ignorant and arrogant. Articles like this and the sheeple that believe it undo all the good work that the Boks have been doing to improve the image of South African rugby since the dark days of Strauligate. Shame on you Ryan and shame on you keo.co.za for allowing this tripe to go online. Can’t we be humble in victory and just celebrate what is good about our team and coach?!
28 Jun 2009, 13:08 pm
yes this myth has well and truly been laid too rest, and in fact, all i’ve seen is another miserable whinger from the NH who thinks the solar systems revolves around themselves.
would the real wee wizard please stand up.
pdivvy where are u?
28 Jun 2009, 13:12 pm
I’d still rather have him as coach than the great Peter de Villiers
28 Jun 2009, 13:14 pm
#6 Durban Poison:
i hear you, but are’nt you getting sick and tired of these NH whinging strokers who seem to regard themselves as the standard-bearers of morality and decency, which must surely be the biggest load of shite the british isles have ever sold to themselves?
you know what i’ve listened to and watch their captains and coaches interviewed after every close-run match and loss, and its all just bitching.
I’ve never seen such a bunch of sore losers to every tour these shores.
They a bunch of overgrown babies. Where’s the honour?
28 Jun 2009, 13:14 pm
Geech’s first bad move was making Paul O’Connell captain. Great guy but does not lead like BOD. He’s not a natural captain. O’Connell would have beena good vice captain.
28 Jun 2009, 13:15 pm
#6 Durban Poison:
Well put. This is just gloating, which is no better than the whingeing of elements in the British press (i.e.Stephen Jones)
28 Jun 2009, 13:16 pm
no one masterminded the Lions 97 series win … six missed kicks masterminded that one
28 Jun 2009, 13:17 pm
#9 cab: Guess it went out the window in the 1st minute yesterday! It takes 2 to tango, but I hate the whinging in the press. Rugby is supposed to be about playing hard until the whistle ends the game, then sharing a beer and a laugh about it afterwards. Somehow I don’t think the spirit of rugby has been upheld by these Lions.
28 Jun 2009, 13:18 pm
#12 keo: Yeah you are right. Why did the Lions even bother turning up!?
28 Jun 2009, 13:18 pm
I see that fool Stephen Jones is calling for an end to Lions tours and banging on about how the saffas should lean over backwards for them with all the millions they bring in.
the arrogance is absolutely astounding.
28 Jun 2009, 13:20 pm
#12 keo: How are you Keo…at last ..care for a bit of a chat about journalism
28 Jun 2009, 13:22 pm
Lets not get ahead of ourselves, he is a great coach who “man for nan” has not had the players to beat the Boks. They came really close, and played better tactics.
Man for man
1) Beast is better than Jenkins
Spies is better
2) Bismark is better Rees
3) Smit is better than Jones
4) Bakkies is better that Shaw (but yesterday was 50/50)
5) Matfield is better than O’Connel
6) Burger is better than Croft (not yesterday though)
7) Smith & Wallace pretty even
9) FDP is better
10) Jones is better
11) Habana is better
12) Roberts is better
13) BOD is better
14) Pieterson is better
15) Both Lions 15′s were better.
Hence, Boks had the better team by 11 – 4.
No matter how good your coach is, you can only coach what you have.
Vrede – time for you to have some humility!
28 Jun 2009, 13:22 pm
#13 jonnymain:
I dont know what to say about the Schalk incident, since i was flabbergasted he would do such a stupid thing and also because i am fond of him as a player and did not believe he would do something like that. There is no excuse and he unfortunately is going to take a long rest for a moment of utter madness.
But i’m sorry the constant whinging and bitching from both the Lions players and coaches is shameful. I blame it on roundball.
28 Jun 2009, 13:23 pm
McGeechan is brilliant. He is of the old school who thinks rugby is a contact sport. Someone has still to teach him that ballroom dancing is a contact sport, rugby is a collision. He only need to look at his casualties of yesterday.
28 Jun 2009, 13:26 pm
#18 cab: Me too – and to think he had the honour of leading the team out for his 50th test. I take no pleasure in seeing him cited, he’s one of my favourite all-time players.
Lets blame poofball. I like that!
28 Jun 2009, 13:29 pm
Good grief man, have you no shame?
The wheel will turn and you are going to be reminded of this piece of embarrasing garbage for years to come.
28 Jun 2009, 13:29 pm
Keo will not speak.. Here is a small leture.. I accept that you need to be controversial to get the debate going and therewith get the hits up but why is that you tend to demonstrate quite clearly that you actually believe the rubbish that you write..
So is it about the money or is it about belief…??
28 Jun 2009, 13:29 pm
#22 Langenhoven: Lecture = leture
28 Jun 2009, 13:31 pm
Kinda random article. Snor better thank Geech for the hype though, has made him look good despite himself.
28 Jun 2009, 13:33 pm
Yes, Ryan, he has a 50%record with the Lions. It seems to escape you that the Lions do not play any home games. I would have thought that a coach with a 50% away win record is not doing too badly at international level.
28 Jun 2009, 13:35 pm
#23 Langenhoven:
Difference being keo is the largest blog in SA, and you are a nincompoop with a micky mouse racist one blogger site in Stavenage.
Why would he respond to you about journalism, you don’t even have a proper command of English usage?
28 Jun 2009, 13:44 pm
#26 Pietman: LOL
28 Jun 2009, 13:52 pm
The bitterness is strong in this one
Well done to the Boks on winning the series.
Commiserations to the Lions.
Well done to the Lions for shoving the arrogance of Keo’s writers (40 point margin!!) and exposing the supposed huge superiority of the Boks.
Given that this Lions team has been written off by all and sundry in SA since they landed as being no hopers and cannon fodder for the best Bok team in modern history, doesn’t it speak more of the Bok’s limitations than of those of the Lions that they only squeaked through in both tests rather than smashing the no-hopers by comfortable margins?
Just a thought.
28 Jun 2009, 13:54 pm
#26 Pietman: Do you see any adverts on my site… I don’t write for money.. It is a worthwhile pastime… it is beautiful… It is like the great artist of our time.. their ingenuity is not driven by money.. I am driven by legacy… Many years from now someone great might find value in my writing.. and many do find value now.. I share thoughts rather than sell propaganda…
This all make me wonderful… what have you done to lift humanity out of the scourge racism and other types of immoral behaviour like Paedophilia
28 Jun 2009, 13:57 pm
#6 Durban Poison: Humble in victory?? What? If the Lions cant be humble losers whats the point in us being humble winners? Get the f**k outta here.
28 Jun 2009, 14:03 pm
geech is a graet coach, how else would you explain the lions comming so close.defenitly not on talent and ability.unlike other coaches he also has manners.a real gentleman
28 Jun 2009, 14:04 pm
maybe he can come and coach the boks one day
28 Jun 2009, 14:12 pm
#31 smallies72: No he’s not.
28 Jun 2009, 14:12 pm
#30 Ezee-23: Talking to me or the Lions? If the former, I’m not one of your farm labourers and don’t have to call you baas! If the latter, some respect for your visitors – that’s not how a host should behave!
Truth is the Lions gave us a game yesterday and last weekend, and the bitter disappointment of losing narrowly and with the last kick of the match is not easy to swallow – it could have easily been us and articles of the ‘Rise and Fall of Schalk Burger within 50 test caps’ would be filling newspapers and blogs . Lets follow the Bok players by not perpetuating the view of Springbok fans being arrogant wankers (in victory or in defeat).
28 Jun 2009, 14:15 pm
#29 Langenhoven:
What have I done?
I have gone out and worked my *** off through university (*** laude) and then onwards to make a shyteload of money through backbreaking work on my own.
That is what I have done.
Stuff humanity, street children on tik, victims of apartheid, corruption, rape and crime on the rise, changing street names and all that *****, that’s your people’s making and problem, not mine.
So stuff all that morality bs.
28 Jun 2009, 14:16 pm
#30 Ezee-23:
You tell him bro, black on white.
28 Jun 2009, 14:18 pm
#35 Pietman: Proves a point about money .. It can’t buy you good sense
28 Jun 2009, 14:20 pm
#35 Pietman: *** Laude you say… how much did that cost
28 Jun 2009, 14:28 pm
#34 Durban Poison: Farm labourer? What?? Let me explain something to you:
The last thing I would call any of the Lions players is “humble in defeat”. I promise you if we were on the other side of theses defeats you would have heard nothing but praise from Smit and PdV. Get the f**k outta here!
28 Jun 2009, 14:29 pm
#33 Ezee-23: no he ‘s not clarrify please
28 Jun 2009, 14:32 pm
#38 Langenhoven:
Hard work, that’s how, selling newspapers in the rain at 5 am, stuff like that, things you know nothing about.
Because you never had to pay your way through school, you thought because you are ‘cullert’ everything would be handed to you post-1994….and now you are stuffed on an exile visa out there in Muddy Island with no papers to show, except some pamphlets you used to hand out on campus during the ‘struggle’.
That’s your story, in a nutshell.
You will alweays ‘struggle’, because you are unqualified to do an honest day’s work.
28 Jun 2009, 14:40 pm
#40 smallies72: Apologies! That comment was rather ignorant and stupid of me since I cant argue it. I just cant take anymore praise for this guy even though his team lost and not a single bit of criticism is going his way like:
Why not Hook instead of O’Gara?
Why Vickery stayed on so long?
Why Willians instead of Monye?
But my comment was stupid since I cant properly argue against him being a ‘good’ coach.
28 Jun 2009, 14:40 pm
#41 Pietman: Hard work PIET. I had it easy, varsity paid for first job lined up. Took me 12 years to pull my head out my a$$ and work for a living. Hard work really is the only way to succeed. Some of us take a while to learn that.
28 Jun 2009, 14:49 pm
#43 goyougoodthing2:
I only paid of my study loans after 12 years as well.
But it stood me in good stead, not having to rely on favours from the government.
So, now I can pay my taxes, vote, and criticise them any which way I want.
And the guys who live of my taxes (like Langkop here) must just shoose…
28 Jun 2009, 14:53 pm
#44 Pietman: Nice one. Mine was paid for by the family, not government. Simple product of coming from privilege LOL.
Didn’t do me any favours though, took a long time to learn about ‘LIFE’.
Cheers
28 Jun 2009, 15:03 pm
#44 Pietman: Do you know what his situation is or are you just guessing? Just asking.
28 Jun 2009, 15:31 pm
#28 stodders: 40 or 4 points, it does not matter, the Lions will be known as losers
NH rugby has again been exposed as hype with a bad smell attached to it. Just go to show you can never polish a **** (BIL)
28 Jun 2009, 15:36 pm
#46 Ezee-23:
I know, tyrust me.
He explained it here also, several times.
Also on his so-called website.
Check it out.
But he speaks in many voices, under different nicks here on keo, you have to read selectively.
28 Jun 2009, 15:37 pm
#48 Pietman:
trust me…
28 Jun 2009, 15:39 pm
#47 JL1: A bad smell? Like having someone cited for gouging you mean? That is the lowest of the low.
What Stodders was trying to say which obviously escaped you is the Lions made it a helluva lot harder than it was supposed to be and deserve at least some credit for doing so. Or maybe you subscribe to the keo theory that it was the Boks that made life harder for themselves and not the opposition, which is just more arrogance really.
28 Jun 2009, 15:44 pm
#50 jonnymain: or Sheridan punching Bekker in the goolies, or a high dangerous tackle by BOD (off side as well)
Whinging pomms with one eye always trying to convince others how royal, strong and noble race(s) they are, born to be better than others, now that is the smell that I constantly smell from the press and the fans alike.
Never admittance of better players or teams beating them, but always excuses and blame
PATHETIC!
28 Jun 2009, 15:45 pm
“Hopefully now the perception that Ian McGeechan is a rugby genius has been well and truly shattered”.
Ryan Verde.
And you Mothers think we are arrogant!
And this by JC…….”If the Springboks stay hungry they will humiliate the Lions”.
Once again…..you won, but hey………..
28 Jun 2009, 15:47 pm
#51 JL1: The Boks are probably the best team in the world and deserved to beat the Lions over 2 tests. Sheridan should have been cited for a cheap-shot, but BOD was just a mis-timed tackle to me. Is being offsides now a cite-able offence in SA?
So what’s your point?
28 Jun 2009, 15:50 pm
#52 cane: I think McGeechan is over-rated personally. And you can’t take JC seriously. What he knows about rugby you could write down on the back of a postage stamp!
28 Jun 2009, 15:51 pm
#53 jonnymain: Simon Shaw 2 warnings for high tackles-law states that should have been a yellow
28 Jun 2009, 15:52 pm
#55 JL1: Perhaps, hardly eye-gouging though.
28 Jun 2009, 15:55 pm
#55 JL1: And if you want to talk laws, the law states eye-gouging is a red card, not yellow. 15 versus 14 for 79 mins and we have a different game altogether. Ifs and maybes make no difference though!
28 Jun 2009, 15:56 pm
#56 jonnymain: punching, eye gouging, spear tackles are they not all the same-no not for for a one eyed BIL fan…
28 Jun 2009, 15:58 pm
#57 jonnymain: yes 15 versus 14, maybe take 5 Boks of to level the playing fields
28 Jun 2009, 15:59 pm
#51 JL1:
Pathetic.
You mean like having an eye gouger in your Team, that could not wait more than 60 seconds before raking the eyes of a competitor. (alleged…….yeah right).
Pathetic…….it’s a two way Street.
60 phuchen seconds……….let me say it again…
60 PHUCKEN SECONDS. One (1) minute.
Pathetic…….your word not mine.
Premeditated, planned and most likely sanctioned by the SA Rugby Coaching hierarchy.
28 Jun 2009, 16:00 pm
#60 cane: Oh cry me a river you spear tackler
28 Jun 2009, 16:01 pm
Ryan great article, McGeechan cost the Brits both tests,
what a wanker. The Brits have been destroyed by the BOKS
aggression. Look forward to the 3rd test
3-0 will hurt real bad
28 Jun 2009, 16:02 pm
The Brits are crying, i love it. They certainly are not LIONS.
The British Goats.
28 Jun 2009, 16:03 pm
#54 jonnymain:
Can’t take PDV seriously either
28 Jun 2009, 16:04 pm
#53 jonnymain:
Forget reason here Jonny. Forget that Neutrals Officiate. Forget that it’s just a silly game.
The only form of defense is ATTACK.
28 Jun 2009, 16:06 pm
#59 JL1: You wanted to start talking laws not me. Accept you dodged a bullet by getting the benefit of a weak referee/TJ combo. I can live with it, that’s sport as PDV might say!
28 Jun 2009, 16:09 pm
#64 Boksarenumber1: If he were white he’d be sacked for his comments regarding Januarie. Pure and simple. Can I say that? Oh I just did. I like his off-the-cuff style but yesterday was the final straw. If he really thinks eye-gouging is “sport” then he shouldn’t be coaching rugby at ANY level.
28 Jun 2009, 16:09 pm
#66 jonnymain: BIL management decided on the referee panel, they were the ones that did not want neutral refs or the top10 refs
28 Jun 2009, 16:12 pm
Keo writers don’t do shades of grey, do they?
28 Jun 2009, 16:12 pm
This possibly the most ridiculous article i have ever read. I am a staunch Bok supporter and have the utmost respect for Ian McGeechan. He does things for the right reasons. An old school rugby man who will die very proud. Ryan sorry boet but you have no idea here china, pathetic really, sad.
28 Jun 2009, 16:14 pm
Nice to see everyone getting along so well.
PDV is a tosser. I’m embarrassed having him speak as our coach. He substituted the wrong players again yesterday. Thank goodness Rossouw got injured so Brussow got onto the field.
Schalk – I have no words. Wanker !!
The LIONS and their supporters should get out of their asses and focus on the final test and winning the game. Its the last chance saloon, and all the ‘excuses’ used to justify the loss of the last 2 tests can be justified … or not.
3rd attempt for them to put up or shut up.
Can’t believe some toss pots think that Fourie was out ?? You can see the bottom of the corner flag the whole way through the try. Next thing they’ll be thinking it wasn’t a try in the WC 2007 final.
28 Jun 2009, 16:17 pm
Ryan, Geech is a lot better than you give him credit for.
Geech 1 – Ryan 1
He put as much thought into Vickery and O’Gara as you put into this article.
28 Jun 2009, 16:39 pm
I dont like th tone of this article.
Geech is a Ledge !
These Lions were low on talent, were mutilated and butchered by injuries and selected with already slim pickings of World class talent……
AND
he could, for 1 or 2 incidents being called another way, have been sitting here at atleast 1-1, or maybe even 2-0 ???
Geech did amazing things with a dodgy team in the hardest environment of World Champions ion their turf and was still only a hairs breadth away from what might have been..
Nah, the guy is a Ledge. Some things are judged more than on victory and success alone.
28 Jun 2009, 16:52 pm
when you think about it the boks have only played 2 tests as a team whereas the BIL had the six nations plus 7 warmup games and still the rusty bokke still prevailed
28 Jun 2009, 16:53 pm
I disagree that this was an untalented Lions team, they had talent, depth and guts all over the park and in every single position.
The Lions team that was fielded on sat would beat just about every other team in world rugby with no coaching.
28 Jun 2009, 16:59 pm
and when beaten, you admit as much, rather than looking for excuses.
we’ve heard nothing but excuses from day one, i mean its a miracle the boks have won two and the e-boks drew. excuses have ranged from unsettled combinations, props scrumming illegaly, the ref, the weather, off-the-ball tactics, altitude, poor quality warm-up opposition.
just excuse after excuse from coaches and players alike.
pisspoor.
28 Jun 2009, 17:39 pm
So if McGeechan is only suitable for club rugby, what level does that qualify PdV for. Schoolboy 4th team level?
28 Jun 2009, 17:44 pm
#29 Langenhoven: WTF? Is that you PDV?
28 Jun 2009, 17:47 pm
#78 U.R. Soles: No not PdV, but similar. Both big mouths, racists, say stupid things in the public domain and both think you don’t need qualifications for a job that requires them……….
28 Jun 2009, 17:53 pm
Cane #60,
Glad you know about premeditation. If Burger’s assault was premeditated it would have bveen on a Lions dangerman like BoD (you agree surely), Roberts, Kearney maybe and it would have been to get him out of the game. A spear tackle (but you know this, hey), late hit after a kick or similar, not a brainfart “eye gouging”.
The Boks need an NZ coach who advised Thorne (taking Smit out with a spear tackle after the whistle, in front of the ref and within the first 20 of the first game) or Umaga & Mealamu was it on BoD, spear tackle, first game, first 20. See the pattern.
28 Jun 2009, 17:55 pm
Pathetic piece of writing … you should go and work for the “Sun” Ryan you twat!
28 Jun 2009, 17:57 pm
#81 Nightwalker: You lost the series, get over it….
28 Jun 2009, 18:05 pm
#82 Bul-a-Bhloo: these poms are very sore losers ffs
28 Jun 2009, 18:06 pm
#83 byoboy: I cannot wait for the Ashes, more Pomm whinging on its way
28 Jun 2009, 18:10 pm
Well said Nightwalker… this kind of drivel filled article is more appropriate for the tabloids… decidedly mediocre journalism
28 Jun 2009, 18:10 pm
#82 Bul-a-Bhloo:
no worse
than the
kiwis
they haven’t even
lost
but they’re
whinging
28 Jun 2009, 18:12 pm
and by the way Im a Bok fanatic just dont enjoy crass journalism
28 Jun 2009, 18:15 pm
this **** arcticle belongs in some trasgy tabloid…..the standard of sportsmanship is poor Ryan….
28 Jun 2009, 18:55 pm
I have read some **** in my life, but this takes the cake Ryan.
Do you guys actually do any research before penning an article?
Apart from James Baxter from England who lost two series in Australia and New Zealand in 1927 and 1930 (only managing a series win over Argentina) no other coach was in charge of the Lions more than Geech, who won series against two of the three top SH sides in Aus (won 2-1 in 1989) and the Boks (2-1 in 1997) and only lost 1-2 to the AB’s in 1993.
That means up (before) to this tour his sides had a 2 out of 3 series win record against the best the SH has to offer.
Telfer as I read previously as being the real hero in 1997, could only managed a 0-4 snotting in NZ in 1983 so no, I don’t reckon it was his influence that swung the 1997 series.
Geech was also the only coach to steer the Lions to a series win in the professional era of rugby.
Huisgenoot articles carry more weight than this **** dished up here.
28 Jun 2009, 18:56 pm
You should write for the sun newspaper in england and publish articles on Jordan and peter andre rather than try and write about rugby, what an arrogant piece of ….
28 Jun 2009, 18:59 pm
Since I am on the subject…
You want to ‘shatter’ the Jake White and Kitch myth while your at it Ryan?
But if you do that, please only consider their ‘away’ records because this is all the Lions have apart from some odd exhibition match every now and then which they play at home.
Geech’s ‘ceiling’ only club rugby?
FFS journalism like this suggests to me your ceiling is at best a community newspaper in Somalia.
28 Jun 2009, 18:59 pm
Cane you sanctimonious Kiwi prick – get off your high horse with regards to eye gouging. Does the name Richard Loe mean anything to you.
28 Jun 2009, 19:01 pm
#89 PissAnt: exactly and they also beat NZ in NZ in a test match something we have managed to do twice in about 20 attempts. the guy is a good coach and did a hell of a lot better job than woodward in 05. lets put it this way better than anything we have at present.
28 Jun 2009, 19:03 pm
#92 Heavens Game: careful he got an 18 mth ban i am sure burger doesnt want that mentioned.
28 Jun 2009, 19:08 pm
To show such arrogant disrespect is embarrassing to me as a South African.
Why can’t we accept take victory and accept defeat with grace and humility.
This is not how “normal” people behave.
Ryan & Keo. This article should be removed.
28 Jun 2009, 19:09 pm
I actually enjoyed the win and Ryan’s article.
Serves McGeechan right. Sore loser who went running to the citing officer.
Comes along with his stiff upper lip and what, what old chap, until his lads are beaten.
Then we see his true colors.
28 Jun 2009, 19:09 pm
Strange article. Why should we care what the NH or any one else for that matter, thinks about McGeechan? We won the series, amen. RV I think you lost it a bit. Try writing for Teazers inhouse employers newsletter or get some coaching in writing constructive articles.
28 Jun 2009, 19:10 pm
#96 Bul-a-Bhloo:
The citing commissioner, who is present at every test, cites these people on his own.
28 Jun 2009, 19:12 pm
#96 Bul-a-Bhloo:
And make no mistake, I loved the win.
We got the series!
28 Jun 2009, 19:13 pm
Andre, just sick of Kiwis thinking they can have a go from their soapboxes. The test yesterday was rugby from “olden day”. It was great to see – trench warfare (Bakkies, Sheridan and Shaw) and Cavalry charges (Kearney, Pietersen and Habana). A good hard game that we don’t see anymore with the ELV focussed Anzacs.
28 Jun 2009, 19:14 pm
#96 Bul-a-Bhloo: No bud, you have more class than your post.
This article is a piece of dirty toilet paper. And you know it.
And yes I enjoyed the win. Both wins. And I am happy to say we were fortunate in both.
28 Jun 2009, 19:14 pm
#98 PissAnt: The rules dictate that the citing officer must cite the players BUT the team managements CAN bring incidents to the citing officer’s attention. They cannot however insist that he cites.
28 Jun 2009, 19:16 pm
#100 Heavens Game:
It was bloody lovely.
Test match rugby the likes we dont see anymore.
28 Jun 2009, 19:17 pm
#101 SodaJoe: :blush:
28 Jun 2009, 19:17 pm
#102 Bul-a-Bhloo:
Yes I know this, and nowhere did I read they initiated any action from their part.
Unless I missed something.
28 Jun 2009, 19:18 pm
#100 Heavens Game: Oh please ! Rugby must evolve . The era of uncordinated fatties went out in the 70s ! Get with the times mate !
28 Jun 2009, 19:18 pm
#101 SodaJoe:
Correct, it is toilet trash.
28 Jun 2009, 19:21 pm
#103 PissAnt: Taking away Schalk’s indiscretion and that we were lucky to play with 15 men, and the uncontested scrums (may this never be allowed to happen again). It was a wonderful game, with everything you could hope for from both teams.
Going back to one of the previous threads PA – the 2 defining moments are Jacques try – such determination and awareness, and Brussow tackling and coming up almost in a pick drive with the ball.
I thought JPP & Habs tries were executed beautifully.
28 Jun 2009, 19:22 pm
#106 rugbygenius: yawn. You are such a bore.
28 Jun 2009, 19:23 pm
#104 Bul-a-Bhloo: You old girl you.
28 Jun 2009, 19:25 pm
#105 PissAnt: I think you might have. You know how and where to fish.
I got it at a chance meeting during an early lunch (brunch) today.
28 Jun 2009, 19:26 pm
#108 SodaJoe:
Oh mate I have seldom been so involved in a rugby match from a spectator point of view.
You could not have scripted this any better.
A team (Lions) written off by all in sundry. All they had was their pride, and pride in the jersey and tradition of the Lions.
They came up against a team, the World Champions, in their backyard, with a team that has hundreds of test caps and guys that has just about won everything the world of rugby has on offer.
Those Lions were ready to die for one another on that pitch yesterday, and the Boks I suspect (maybe even know) got a taste of what real test match rugby is really all about.
If anything, this series has shown me the expanded and even more expanded 3N series which sees us up against Aus and NZ 3 or 4 times a year, has devalued what test match rugby is all about.
A Lions series is the last thing we have left that holds the amateur values of rugby close at heart.
May it never end…
28 Jun 2009, 19:27 pm
#111 Bul-a-Bhloo:
Oh okay, my apologies then!
28 Jun 2009, 19:28 pm
So on the theme of this article.
I wish to thank the Lions, their management and players and supporters for an absolute wonderful test series.
Please continue with this great tradition you have.
28 Jun 2009, 19:31 pm
this article is an embarrassment.
almost as bad as all the whining by the lions players on this tour.
they have left a bad taste and could have taken a bit of a lesson from their magnificent supporters.
28 Jun 2009, 19:32 pm
#112 PissAnt: If the tradition of the Lions (as suggested by Stephen Jones) had to end it would break my heart.
I am indebted to the 1974 Lions for instilling my love of the game – despite the pain – JPR, Mervyn Davies, Gareth Edwards. The pain of 1997. The joy of 1986 and 2009.
Bud this article shames South Africans in every way.
Having said that I still think Jeremy Guscott is an unmitigated prick.
28 Jun 2009, 19:34 pm
#114 PissAnt: Aye. I second the motion.
28 Jun 2009, 19:35 pm
#115 rangerman: Hell that is so true.
You can’t fault their support base. Imagine 40000 supporters traveling 11000km to watch a game.
28 Jun 2009, 19:36 pm
#115 rangerman: Bushwhacker. These guys hate to lose. The losing hurt. And they lashed out.
A forgivable sin.
And one that would have probably been perpetuated by us if the shoe was on the other foot – see Smit Thorne for comparison.
We should not throw stones in glass houses.
My guess is that the players probably get on pretty well.
28 Jun 2009, 19:38 pm
#118 Bul-a-Bhloo: One of my closest friends is English in SA – he has loved every moment of it. His first trip (albeit in luxury most of us would kill for).
28 Jun 2009, 19:39 pm
#116 SodaJoe:
Wasn’t it great to see Will’s John in the stands yesterday???
Hell this is the highest honour any player in the NH can aspire to, to wear that red jersey.
Shaw, who went on three Lions tours, got his debut yesterday, and won a deserved man of the match – you tell me this does not mean anything to them or to rugby.
****…
I reckon the IRB and the rest of the rugby world can learn something from this…
28 Jun 2009, 19:39 pm
#103 Pissant – it was a privilege to watch one of the best Lions games ever. One team might have underperformed for part of the match and another overperformed, but wow it will live on in memory. The Battle of Loftus. No prisoners were taken from both sides
#106 “Rugby Genius” you don’t get it do you. Rugby is not just about fancy moves and looking good. Its called “fronting up” in your parlance. After being forcefed Tri-Nations **** for years at last we had a test series worthy of the name. We used to have that with the ABs but they seem to be more worried about posing in scants
28 Jun 2009, 19:42 pm
#6 Durban Poison: This article is very sad & reflects poorly upon South Africans. I know there are many Saffas on here who do not share this article’s views. Nevertheless it does not show Saffa supporters in good light.
Congrats to the Boks for winning the series. The two matches were great to watch. Let’s give credit to both teams. Remember the adage to be gracious in defeat & magnanimous in victory. Few former players here would have minded playing under a coach like the “Geech”.
28 Jun 2009, 19:43 pm
#121 PissAnt: My biggest disappointment has been that the provincial teams were denuded of their Boks.
Man – in the days that the Lions would poep themselves to play Province or Noord Transvaal.
Or we would poep ourselves to play the NZ Maoris when we toured.
This is why the June SH tours are so pathetic.
Tell you what – Morne Steyn 24 or so years old – nerves of steel. He will live with that moment and that joy for the rest of his life, and he will tell his grandchildren of the magnificence of the moment.
Because it was the Springboks vs the Lions.
28 Jun 2009, 19:44 pm
And that brings me back to this toilet trash article.
It has done a great disservice to one of the greatest Lions coach’s of all time, and in effect, insulted the tradition of Lions rugby and what it has brought to the rugby world especially in the professional era where money robs us of the values of this great game.
I actually hope, no I wish the Lions players gets hold of this article and meets Ryan in a pub before they leave to go back home.
28 Jun 2009, 19:44 pm
#123 JimT: Jim. My deepest and sincere apologies.
I can say no more.
28 Jun 2009, 19:46 pm
#125 PissAnt: Honestly. You would not speak to a man with such disrespect face to face.
I believe an apology is due.
But that would take a real man.
28 Jun 2009, 19:49 pm
Gentlemen, adieu.
See you through the window.
28 Jun 2009, 19:50 pm
#122 Heavens Game:
The battle of Loftus.
Man that about sums it up! Let’s remind our children of this, so 12 or 24 years from now they may be reminded what this game is all about!
#124 SodaJoe:
We lost a lot in rugby thanks to professionalism, and one cannot really blame what happened prior to the tests and with the midweek and provincial games – it is almost part and parcel of pro rugby thanks to the fact that where Lions tours in the past were 4 months, this one is 6 weeks…
Thank goodness the tests have not lost its values.
On Morne Steyn…
Hell man he had a Joel Stransky (1995) moment there.
lets just hope and pray he does not fade after this or it is the only thing we will remember him by.
Let’s hope he has tons of Stransky moments for the Boks in future!
28 Jun 2009, 19:51 pm
I agree that this article is trashing one of the best coaches around and is in poor taste. What I would like to know however is what has happened to Geech’s relationship with the Scottish union after he delivered them a 6Nations triumph. There is apparently something not right there evidenced I believe by him not picking any Scots until forced to.
28 Jun 2009, 19:52 pm
#123 JimT:
I think by reading most of the comments, you can be assured we do not share this toilet trash point of view.
28 Jun 2009, 19:52 pm
#51 JL1: BOD’s tackle was not high. He may have been offside in making a tackle but the after effects came from an accidental clash of heads. Evidently both players have suffered concussion.
28 Jun 2009, 19:57 pm
Gatland has changed into a whinging Pomm and the players have also become egotistical not shaking hands against the Emerging Boks
28 Jun 2009, 19:57 pm
#60 cane: Yes that the difficult thing to comprehend, an offense like this after only 1 minute!! In the middle of a heated match when the blood is boiling, not acceptable still but understandable. What goes on in this man’s mind? Sad very sad
28 Jun 2009, 19:57 pm
#132 JimT: not using his arms and he hit him high, have a look at the replay-I did
28 Jun 2009, 19:58 pm
#133 JL1:
They formed a little tunnel for them as far as I can remember…
28 Jun 2009, 19:59 pm
#62 Boksarenumber1: C’mon 5 pt & 3 pts wins, hardly destroyed, get a grip on reality.
28 Jun 2009, 19:59 pm
#131 PissAnt: At varsity in res the journalist students were mostly used as furniture. Ryan seems like good footstool material.
28 Jun 2009, 19:59 pm
#60 cane: Like Richard Loe played for yours,move to England you sound like a whinging pomm
28 Jun 2009, 20:00 pm
#136 PissAnt: O’Gara was one of the main ones not shaking any hands, quite apt for him to throw the 3 points to the Boks
28 Jun 2009, 20:03 pm
#129 PissAnt: PA One thing that hasn’t been mentioned and I think should is the impact that Gatlands comments pre-match had on the tone of the match, in particular the start. I believe he was goading the Boks into overly aggressive play and Schalk played right into his hands.
I was also astounded by the amount of negative play off the ball by the BI Lions. You go and watch that game again and dont follow the ball but watch the blocking,obstruction and deliberate incitement off the ball.
28 Jun 2009, 20:06 pm
#132 JimT:
I’d like to personally shake BOD’s hand for that – it got Brussow on the field. Old PdV brought the wrong loosie on. Tosser !!
28 Jun 2009, 20:07 pm
#138 Beertjie:
Sounds about right in my view
#140 JL1:
He cost them 10 points, he missed Mossie when he scored too – but I still think it is terribly unfair to pin this on one player.
#141 bananaboy:
I make a point of not reading or listening to any pre-match stuff. So can’t really comment.
Look there were stuff that was not needed, and stuff that is part of the game.
All in all, it was a great test and I would like to remember it as such.
28 Jun 2009, 20:08 pm
#138 Beertjie: Ryan is not any worse than the British press-look at what the drivel that they write:
News of the World:
Lions fury at Springbok cheats
Luke Fitzgerald speaks out after being gouged by Schalk Burger
The Mail on Sunday:
Lions uproar over gouging: Springboks accused of vicious attack after Test triumph with the last kick
They are really the pits
28 Jun 2009, 20:08 pm
#124 SodaJoe: Soda, agree with you over the provincial matches. That was very disappointing. I was expecting so much more from the rest of the tour
28 Jun 2009, 20:09 pm
#143 PissAnt: Not so sure he is known for having a gambling problem
No the whole team finished very poorly
28 Jun 2009, 20:13 pm
Good comments from Phil Bennet:
“For all their bravery, for all the guts and pride, and savage self-sacrifice, the bottom line is that the Lions have lost the series.
In fact, there’s another bottom line beneath that. The Lions have now lost seven Test matches in succession.
In Australia in 2001, they lost the final two Tests after winning the first.
Four years ago in New Zealand they lost all three and here they’ve been beaten even if they were certainly not bowed.
To beat these southern hemisphere teams on their own patch you have to get everything right. Everything.”
28 Jun 2009, 20:15 pm
#147 JL1: One of the few objective comments
28 Jun 2009, 20:15 pm
#126 SodaJoe: Thank you Soda, accepted in the spirit it was given. Let’s forget this trash talk from an embittered few & revel in the two magnificent matches we were fortunate to watch. As for for some of the Lions comments directly after the match regrettable I must say. I’ve never believed in interviewing players/coaches so soon after a match when emotions are still running high. I’m sure comments today would be more tempered.
28 Jun 2009, 20:17 pm
#143 PissAnt: PA there was too much negative stuff from these Lions even to the extent that after both tests none of the management have come out and said “the better side won”. I’m sorry but when you want to cry about refs and unsportsmanlike behaviour then start by being gracious to your conquerors first.
28 Jun 2009, 20:18 pm
#131 PissAnt: Thanks, congrats again on the win. Let’s hope we see another great match next Saturday.
28 Jun 2009, 20:18 pm
#149 JimT: Wise man! I think it was a great and tough game and will remember it for a long time.
28 Jun 2009, 20:21 pm
#135 JL1: I will look again. I had to watch on my PC, the game is not broadcast on TV here until Monday evening. If I’m wrong will stand corrected.
28 Jun 2009, 20:23 pm
Hey Ryan, here’s a quote from Jake White …
“Talking of inspiration brings me on to Ian McGeechan, the Lions head coach. The man’s a genius, as he showed in 1997 with some selections nobody else would have gone for but which worked brilliantly. I am sure it will be the same with his choices this time.”
Name sound familiar ? Remember us winning the WC in 2007 ? He probably knows a bit about rugby, and I’m guessing just a little bit more than you.
28 Jun 2009, 20:24 pm
#140 JL1: Yes I though O’Gara looked churlish that night. Maybe it reflected his mood in knowing he was not going to get the test slot? Bad form on his part.
28 Jun 2009, 20:27 pm
#142 levit8: Yes the irony of that, right?
Schalk has helped the Bok cause for the next test I imagine. Surely PDV will pick Brussow if Burger is not available? The fates conspire against us
28 Jun 2009, 20:31 pm
#144 JL1: Sorry, but there’s no credibility to be found in citing the News of The World. Next thing that paper will publish is that Schalk is really the child of alien parents
28 Jun 2009, 20:32 pm
#156 JimT: Yes its amazing how that would work out – Schalk’s banning means we could start with a specialist fetcher again. Then again, who knows what PdV’s brain cell will conjur up this week when he selects the team.
28 Jun 2009, 20:34 pm
#147 JL1: Yes another journalist & former player, Paul Ackford, cited the 7 losses in a row & suggested the Lions should be disbanded in this professional era. Hope that this does not come to pass. The low attendance on this tour, except for test matches, does not help though.
28 Jun 2009, 20:40 pm
#152 Boerboel: I’m sure it will, at least in SA
No, seriously it was a great game & matched the highest traditions of this great rivalry. I hope some of our injured will recover to put on another exciting test next week.
28 Jun 2009, 21:49 pm
Pointless and pathetic article.
28 Jun 2009, 21:52 pm
I’d take one McGeechan ahead of twelve Snorre and six Jakes any day of the week if my life depended on my team winning. Geech is way better than any yarpie coach since Craven.
28 Jun 2009, 21:56 pm
…and yet its 2-0 to The Maestro.
28 Jun 2009, 21:57 pm
#158 levit8:
Bekker at 6!
or Rose!
28 Jun 2009, 22:39 pm
I never believed he was the guru anyway. Other than a tour that runs every 4 years, what international experience did he ever have? None.
28 Jun 2009, 23:11 pm
“In five years as Scotland coach McGeechan won one Five Nations title” – NO WAY! He must be a rugby genius! Im actually being serious…
His genius is in the man management of his players and choice of players of a particular nature – those with mongrel, good attitudes, who dont like being intimidated. That explains the dirty stuff that the Lions are renowned for. He has people to do the technical stuf- defence, video analysis, etc. He makes sure the boys are “up for it”. That is half the game won right there. He is definitely not only a club coach.
Look at how useless Straueli was at getting his players up for it, undermining their confidence and creating uncertainty at every turn. And look at his record.
He manages to get them to play for each other in a very short space of time. Ultimately their talent is only good enough 50% of the time, but then he is playing against what is theoretically supposed to be settled national teams. In the past, a few of these teams have been less than settled, and he has taken victories from this. thank god Jake White settled teh Boks down after Straueli, and showed us what consistency of selection does, and the importance of experience. I wonder how many generations will go past before we forget those lessons again.
28 Jun 2009, 23:22 pm
#163 cab: sometimes I think its despite Snor, not thanks to him. There have been a few stupid things done on this tour. The main factor influencing this tour was the person working out the Lions itinerary. Absolutely brilliant!
28 Jun 2009, 23:48 pm
#92 Heavens Game:
yes. that was nearly 20 years ago. We’re now talking yesterday.
The facts show the incident happened in the very 1st minute. Clear eye-gouging.
Afterwards, PdV unashamedly said he saw nothing wrong with it.
Sounds to me like it was a plan pre-formulated and agreed by SA Rugby Management.
Tell me why that was going through Burgers mind in the first minute if it was not ?
29 Jun 2009, 01:01 am
Congrats Boks – you showed great character to triumph like that but I was holding my breath for the first half at least. Burger should not play in the Springbok jersey until he gets the message/relearns the rules of rugby, what on earth was he thinking? Speaking of learning could somebody send PDV on a course to relearn the art of making the right selections so as not to actually hand the game to the opposition. And PLEASE please let Gold or Smit speak at press conferences until such time as our esteemed coach manages to string a comprehensible sentence together/answer a question intelligently/not make offensive remarks of any kind. The Easter Bunny could probably do better. (PS) Watching the replays again the Lions should stop throwing accusations around and take a long hard look at some of their own dubious tactics – I thought we Saffers could moan but these guys are certainly not gracious in defeat).Take a leaf out of John Smit’s book.
29 Jun 2009, 01:57 am
McGeechan was also a coach in 1999 when Scotland won the 5N title.
The guy is a great coach, this set of Lions shouldn’t have got anywhere near the Boks when you look at the quality in their respective line-ups but have ended up one score away in both tests so far.
29 Jun 2009, 08:11 am
#157 JimT:
Oh SH*T.
you mean he isnt ???!!!!
#170 Big Hit:
Holy sh*t.
I hope noone is watching.
Is the coast clear ?
~gulp~
Big Hit, I agree with you 100%.
29 Jun 2009, 10:06 am
This is my problem with keo journos. Ryan claiming, “There is no room for sentiment in professional rugby”
There should also be no room for sentiment in jornalism (or what do you okes call yourselves because journalist is surely pushing it).
McGeechan had nothing to work with on this tour (because I still believe that a weak England=a weak B&I Lions) and the Boks were the better team. If you dont have the players then there is very little you can do as a coach.
McGeechan has been in the game for a long time which should already tell you the man has some pedigree. Your failure to see that (intentional or no) is a bad reflection on you
29 Jun 2009, 10:36 am
Compared to pdv he is a Godlike coach he outsmarted pdv every time , we won tenspyte of pdv not because of the idiot
29 Jun 2009, 10:53 am
I think this Vrede sometimes writes with one eye open. A bit like Mick Cleary, he seems to want to provoke more than inform. Sometimes that is fine but other times it is a little tiresome.
The reason McGeechan is rated highly is less for amazing success rates but more for what he gets players to achieve. He got the Lions to a series victory against a soon to be world champion Australia side in 89 when the Lions patently were less individually brilliant than their hosts. He did the same in 97 against the then world champion Springbok team. Compare that with 2001 when Graham Henry took the Lions to Australia with possibly our best side ever and lost 2-1 or Clive Woodward took a world champion stocked Lions to NZ and lost 3-0.
That Scotland team that won a grand slam under him were a cobbled together mish mash that fell apart after he left. They have come last or second last pretty much ever since he gave up his involvement.
As a club coach he got Northampton to punch above their weight for years. They got relegated after he left. Wasps were already a good side when he joined but the Heineken Cup victory against Leicester was completely against the odds and it was seen by all commentators as a game won at the coaching level. Wasps’ coaches found that Leicester had a tendency to not guard the front of the lineout properly and we scored a try in each half there.
29 Jun 2009, 11:25 am
#174 Honkie: wish he was the bok coach …hell wish my sister was the coach any one but pdv !! respect to McGeechan he ran a great bok side close and dominated in the coaching battle
29 Jun 2009, 11:58 am
Since England won the 2003 World Cup,Northern Hemisphere
rugby has been in a steady decline.Instead of cultivating
their own young players,the Heineken cup (their equivalent
of the Super 14) is littered with Southern Hemisphere
players.Many of these players struggled to make it at home
and some returning stars struggled to regain the form that made such big attractions for the Northern Hemisphere club.
Just look at two of the BIL’s wingers.Shane Williams was
solely picked on reputation and past form.He is not a shadow of the player he used to be.
The other whose name escapes me now,cost his team the
first test by carrying the ball under the wrong arm.
Yet the inclusion of these two,just underlines two
things,either poor selection or a lack of talent.
Yet in the England 7′s I saw far better winger material.
The fact McGeechan still managed to put a competitive
team on the field says a lot of his coaching ability,but
in contrast Piet Helium’s inability to take what is
after all the World champions to greater heights and
his inability to read the situation until it was almost
to late makes him in my opinion just an average coach
of which there are many in South Africa.
.
29 Jun 2009, 12:09 pm
The Springboks victory came at a high cost to both teams.
Bakkies and Burger suspended.The fact that Bakkies has
been suspended for 8 weeks,clearly shows that his reputation
is counting against him and that he instead of Burger
could have been easily red carded on Saturday.
The fact that two of the BIL’s props were taken for corrective
surgery shows that the ferocity of the game was taken to
a level fuelled by far to many of the ball incidents.
A couple of yellows card to both sides was needed to bring
flaring temperatures under control.
Not a good advertisement of rugby and I think many watching
this game must have their doubts if it will increase
rugby’s following or if the round ball ‘the so called
beautiful game’ will keep on dominating the ‘foot ball’
game.
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