Boks need a coach
5 Jul 2009
Gavin Rich, writing in the Weekend Argus, wonders how much longer John Smit will be able to keep his team together.
So a British & Irish Lions tour has come and gone and at least this time there won’t be any British journalists butting me on the head while muttering over and over again ‘We did you, we did you’, as happened on this night 12 years ago.
Instead I had to listen to former Lions scrumhalf Matt Dawson, who was on a BBC radio programme I took part in, telling the people of the United Kingdom that the Springbok coach was ‘absolutely bonkers’, ‘unbelievable’ and a ‘discredit to the game’.
And then afterwards, in the final Test, the Lions scored the most emphatic victory of the series.
So yep, you have probably figured it out – I am not sure how I feel.
It was ‘us’ who did them this time, but pretty much the same way as they did us 12 years ago – by exploiting some quite weak selection and strategy decisions from the opposing coach.
Had Ian McGeechan got his selections right for Durban, the Lions would probably have won this series 3-0, and the Boks would have been made to pay a much bigger price than just embarrassment for the fault-lines that are appearing under Peter De Villiers.
The Bok coach has been a severe embarrassment to the country, and those who argue in his favour on the basis of his results are either just not close enough to the team to know what is really going on, or they are wilfully ignoring the facts.
The fact is that De Villiers inherited a World Cup winning team held together by a core of individuals who rank among the most experienced rugby players in the world.
They played against a Lions team that, apart from being poorly selected first up, struggled to come to terms with the challenges posed to the Lions concept in the professional era, when provincial games are no longer proper examinations and there are not really enough of them to get the combinations to groove.
The Lions were hammered 3-0 in New Zealand in 2005, with not one of those games being close, and considering the scarcity of world-class players in the Lions unit, the Boks should have expected something similar.
There are probably a few reasons why this was not the case, and credit must be given to the Lions for the way they fought, but I am inclined to agree with Eddie Jones, who in a London newspaper column described the Boks as a team that looks under-coached.
Yes, the Boks were winning until yesterday, but how much has De Villiers had to do with those victories?
For those who know what is going on within the camp, it will not be news that the players are running the team. It is one of the reasons why they seem on their way to regaining their reputation for indiscipline.
You really can’t allow the inmates to run the prison indefinitely without there being some kind of drawback.
John Smit is taking a great deal on his plate at the moment, and his captaincy last week, the way he kept his players calm when the mortars were falling all around them in that first hour, played a big part in the way the Boks were able to win it in the final minutes.
But how much longer can Smit and his lieutenants Victor Matfield and Fourie du Preez keep the Boks together?
Yesterday the cracks were clearly becoming evident, and the Boks have got progressively worse during the series.
It is when the experienced players go that the Boks are going to need a coach. Is De Villiers the right man to take the Boks to 2011?
I don’t believe he is. His record might look impressive, but there is a big difference between a successful coach and a good coach.
Former Australian cricket coach John Buchanan was an example of a successful coach. The Australian team he was in charge of for several years was brimful of experienced, talented players – all of them world class.
Buchanan’s team picked up trophies and dominated the Test game. But Shane Warne had doubts over Buchanan’s credentials as a coach, and he was vindicated once Buchanan was no longer coaching a team of super-stars. His performance in the recent IPL was so poor that he has now been sacked.
They used to say about Kitch Christie – ‘the right man at the right time’.
It may be that De Villiers will be remembered as ‘the wrong coach at the right time’, meaning that if ever there was a time when a flaky coach could be carried, it is now, when the team has been playing together for so long and has such a long established winning habit.
Unfortunately that means they probably won’t kick onto the level where they should kick onto, and while the coach may, at the moment, be able to get away with having minor input to strategy, that won’t be the case forever.
When the experienced players move on or retire, and inexperienced players become more prevalent in the team, the Boks are going to need a coach.
In fact, they need one now.
By Gavin Rich, Weekend Argus
456 Comments
5 Jul 2009, 18:02 pm
A Dragon of a coach
5 Jul 2009, 18:07 pm
We need Eddie/Jake/Mallet/Smal/Plumtree/Pieter Rossouw
Maybe have coach indaba like they forced upon Jake and Rudi
By the Matt Dawson must a racist for criticizing PDV
5 Jul 2009, 18:09 pm
All the journos around the world seem to think that PDV is waste of space as a so called coach
Are they racist?
5 Jul 2009, 18:09 pm
This anti-PDV stuff is ludicrous.
He’s just completed an unbeaten EOYT and a British Lions series victory and some people want to get rid of him?
5 Jul 2009, 18:10 pm
The only way to get rid of PdV is due to non performance. His team has just won the series against the Lions
PdV will be coach till the end 2011. Accept it!
5 Jul 2009, 18:13 pm
Doesn’t take a genius to work this out long ago.
5 Jul 2009, 18:16 pm
The anti PDEV stance by most local journos is very disturbing….if in fact the rumors of the senior players running the side are proved true….that is even more disturbing….
This issue needs to be brought out into the open…the SA rugby puplic have a right to know what the true situation is !!!!
5 Jul 2009, 18:17 pm
Let PdV be and get him better assistant coaches. If he is a political appointment, then he will never be fired.
Get the right people to back him up. Muir and Gold are not the right people.
5 Jul 2009, 18:19 pm
#8 Moerig: the forwards went pretty well and basically won the series, I’m not sure Gold can be criticised. The set-plays in the backs were also awesome and had a big part to play so Muir deserves credit too.
5 Jul 2009, 18:19 pm
#3 JL1: Didn’t you know that to be a journo you have to attend 3 meetings a month in a white pointy hat.
To confuse everyone you must then pick random black players and laud them for their ability. The current crop have chosen very randomly Beast and Habana as good players… only to enable them cunningly to then crit the coach and not be seen as racist.
Brilliant plan don’t you think. Unfortunately some SWAPO code breakers have figured this out and are causing problems
5 Jul 2009, 18:20 pm
#7 justrugby: Wait for Jon Smit’s book, it’ll open some eyes.
5 Jul 2009, 18:20 pm
after watching gold, bh,jpp and jdv on tv at bokworld on friday night, i got the distinct impression that there was too much buddy-buddy and familiarity between the players and gold.
a bit like our cricket team.
can’t say if muir and pdv have the same overly pally relationship with the players but it is not a good sign.
in these types of relationships between senior managers and middle-management in any corporation, the first thing to disappear is discipline.
then performance
then accountability.
5 Jul 2009, 18:21 pm
#5 dWeePer: 2 wooden spoons in the Tri-Nations enough? And a loss or 2 at the year end tour? Watch this space.
5 Jul 2009, 18:22 pm
#11 goyougoodthing2: Gonna be a good read for sure !!!
5 Jul 2009, 18:22 pm
Met some lions supporters this week , they cannot believe what a moron Piet Snor is , and what an embarrassment to the country he is.However, politics dictates we are stuck with him till the termination of his contract.We’ve had worse , though – Carel, Harry , Rudolph just as incompetent.
Two weeks for Shaw – disgrace , compared to Bakkies’ legal actions.
5 Jul 2009, 18:23 pm
#9 Big Hit: The forwards went pretty well for the first half in the Durban test. The last 20 minutes of the 2nd test, the back were good. Both were abysmal for 80 minutes in the 3rd test.
That is a whole lot of minutes where they were pretty bad in my opinion.
5 Jul 2009, 18:24 pm
#4 Big Hit: I can coach the All Blacks today and we will still beat Scotland by 20 or more. Should I get the credit?
5 Jul 2009, 18:26 pm
#10 goyougoodthing2: I think PDV has some selctions problems
Those he thought that are good enough seem now weak, players just get a chance and then do nothing with it
Zane Kirchner has had 2 now and messed up both, Nokwe seem really average
Ndungane seem always up for it
Beast is also not that good as a prop
Johann Muller is also not good enough imo
Chili was good but poor on scrumming
5 Jul 2009, 18:31 pm
#12 charo: You could be right, something seems missing although the squad look very happy-just look how all and sundry celebrated the series win in Pretoria
I think PDV is learning that some players are just not making the step up to international rugby, he is a bit living in cloud cuckoo land for actually trying them in the first place, but then again how would we know or get the players experienced
Maybe he is a poor planner
5 Jul 2009, 18:32 pm
#4 Big Hit: yes Biggy preach it as it is.
btw why is there such dead silence about PdV’s so called assistant coaches? Gold & ****.
What has Gold achieved? Look at the powder puff WP/Stormers team that he was involved in just a few months ago. Look at the rubble that **** dished up. You are only as good as your assistants.
5 Jul 2009, 18:36 pm
I am afraid things are looking grim – F Steyn, JdV and Jaque all leaving for Europe…
For the F Steyn critics – I hope Saturday’s game put in clear perspective to you the gulf in class between him and Kirchner.
5 Jul 2009, 18:38 pm
Ok, hold on quick…if PDivvie is such a bad coach and considering his record why do Rassie, Loffie, Pote, Naka and Frans Ludeke get years and years to ‘prove’ themselves?? If the senior players are running the team and they are winning, maybe a stronger coach would ruin that. Let’s get the tri-nations done and then assess…I know quite a couple of CEO’s in this country who are horrible human beings, cheat on their wives and do some very creative accounting yet their companies are successful..
5 Jul 2009, 18:41 pm
Can I recommend Graham Henry?
5 Jul 2009, 18:42 pm
“You really can’t allow the inmates to run the prison indefinitely without there being some kind of drawback.”
That is rather Rich of this writer to say something like this. Our players are not inmates are they? Only Burger qualifies as a criminal the eye gauging, face defacing thug that he is.
5 Jul 2009, 18:43 pm
It is absurd that the coach’s all-round ability are being based on his media skills. The coach’s record on the field is being wilfully ignored as hacks distort everything he says to fit their own agendas (we witnessed this play out this past week as the British hacks did everything in their power to deflect attention from the deficiencies of their team and management). When the team wins, it’s cos the players are playing for John Smit, and when they lose, it’s because of the coaching staff. Ludicrous! Are they all not doing it for South Africa and the pride of the jersey?!
From the start of PdV’s tenure, he has been undermined with most Afrikaans rugby hacks feeling that Heyneke Meyer ‘was robbed’ and their English-speaking counterparts (Gavin Rich leading the way and backed up by Mark Keohane and Clinton van den Berg) longing for Jake White (socio-political nature of SA Rugby I guess – trust the devil you know than the devil you don’t). Then the bizarre fascination with his moustache, dress sense and flowery use of the English language (not his native tongue) through anecdotes and metaphors.
This week has seen the campaign to malign the coach intensifying as he avoided attributing the action of eye-gouging, which implies intent, to the contact that Schalk Burger made with Luke Fitzgerald’s eye – anyone who reads the full transcript of Monday’s press conference would understand clearly the reasoning behind the coach’s view. Nevertheless, it is disheartening that most SA rugby fans/sheeple base their opinion of the coach on selected sound-bytes used by hacks to sensationalise articles. Perception rather than facts rules – seems to be a bitter pill to swallow that the most successful Springbok coach in the professional era is… ‘a black mechanic’!
5 Jul 2009, 18:45 pm
#25 Durban Poison: happens the world over… controversy and bending the truth sell more papers and get more hits on blogs like this…
5 Jul 2009, 18:49 pm
#23 chch: No thanks, I know PdV might not get us to the WC QF, but another SA coach will take us beyond GH’s limit.
5 Jul 2009, 18:51 pm
#25 Durban Poison: This particular article does not refer to his media skills. It is a direct reference to his ability to steer the team in the right direction.
#26 poppa69: Yes it does, but those are normally found with Ryan’s name attached to it.
5 Jul 2009, 18:53 pm
#20 RedLion: Oh my word, is that really Gold’s background? Stormers/WP forward coach? I can maybe give Muir the benefit of the doubt, because any backline will suffer with a pack of forwards that performed like ours did on Saturday.
Sorry, but the main problem with the Boks are the coaching team in general and not PdV specific.
5 Jul 2009, 18:56 pm
How many games are allowed in the final set?
Should I set my alarm?
5 Jul 2009, 18:58 pm
#30 chch: there is no tie break apparantly – it will be a long final set.
5 Jul 2009, 18:59 pm
#30 chch: has to be a 2 game winning margin, so could go all night… longest third set I think ever was like 26-28 or something…
5 Jul 2009, 19:04 pm
game on now
5 Jul 2009, 19:06 pm
#28 King Shark: Read between the lines fella. I’ll be the first to say that Jake White was a good coach with fantastic media skills, but none of us would know how he would have reacted to the British media circus of fire-breathers and clowns. By the end of a long week, it was clear that PdV was gatvol and even admitted that he let ‘them’ get to him. I think we underestimate the pressure the coach is under, especially in light of closeness of second test, citings, yellow-cards, allegations of eye-gouging and general ‘over-physicality’ from the Boks. All I’m saying is, back-off with all the negative stuff, and back the team (including coaching staff) cos they are bloody winning!
5 Jul 2009, 19:06 pm
Again, did we not win the series? Did we not have an undefeated eoyt? Did we not win in new zealand, name another coach who has done that. It is quite weird that suddenly everybody cares how we win…Heyneke Meyer has for years implemented a gameplan that had them lose quite a lot in the beginning..then it turned. Suddenly nobody cared how we win but we won.
5 Jul 2009, 19:08 pm
#18 JL1: IMO we lack in the tight 5.
Not Beast or Bismark, been watching them at the Sharks for ages and studying them. Smit on TH is weaker than Jannie, it shows. Because the Sharks don’t have great 4 and 5′s it shows up even more. At the Bok level Smit looked okay in front of Bakkies and not okay when Bakkies is absent. So we have a decent LH and a few in the wings. We have Bismark, Kuun, blah blah blah and Chilli 2, we have TH Smit and Jannie and and and. We lack depth at 4 and 5 and this was shown up in this series. IMO Smith isn’t adding anything at the moment.
8 is much of a much with Spies and Kanko, think they BOTH struggle behind a weak pack. Find of the tournament has been Brussow bless his cotton socks.
9 FDP had a bad game on Sat, it happens. 10 Pienaar or Steyn, flair vs conservative. I’d play Pienaar with Steyn on bench. If I were to be mercenary then the other way around as Ruan can play several positions.
WO didn’t do much for his chances yesterday. JF was solid as usual. That said I don’t think JDV is up to it either this year. Jacobs in the mix but we have issues I think at inside centre, unless they play FSteyn there.
The wings, well people forget how big JPP is and what a presence he can be. I doubt anyone forgets what an impact Banana can have on a game, I am the first to admit his form was shocking earlier in the year and I thought he was game over.
Fulback, well Frans Steyn really is the choice isn’t he? Zane did nothing yesterday, bad kicking, too much kicking just poor decisions and those charge downs – how slow was he? So Steyn at 12 means… hold your breath, the old man Terblanche.
We do have
5 Jul 2009, 19:12 pm
#29 Moerig: Muir is just as useless. Was at the Sharks and continues at the Boks.
**** is the same as Hugh Reece-Edwards was at the Sharks. A great mate but terrible coach. Drinking with the lads and the like does not make for a good player/coach relationship.
When DM left the Sharks no one cried. Plumtree had been doing the hard yards for years already.
5 Jul 2009, 19:13 pm
Alex Ferguson can attend Wimbledon now that Owen is looking after the horses
5 Jul 2009, 19:15 pm
All this talk bout ppl who criticise pdiv, tht are racist is ****.I’m coloured and i must admit,pdiv must go.He’s disgraced our country,discraced Springbok rugby and has disgraced da coloured community.I say fire his *** along wit Hoskins
5 Jul 2009, 19:20 pm
#37 goyougoodthing2: I always had the idea that Muir is not as good a coach as some would make him out to be.
I think we are stuck with the terrible trio. Together they will drive any team into the ground.
Terrible Trio. You heard it here first
5 Jul 2009, 19:21 pm
In Jake’s first year he had a win percentage against NZ and Aus of 50% and won the Tri-nations. Coach of the year and team of the year.
Second year he had a win percentage of 66% against NZ and Aus and lost the Tri-nations by one bonuspoint to NZ.
In his worst year where most wanted him fired he had the same success as PDV last year. 2 out of 6. Unfortunetly Bakkies and Schalk was out injured most of 2006 – and we saw on saturday what Bakkies means to the Boks.
2007 he rested a couple of players as well as a couple of injuries before the 2007 WC. Again got coach of the year and team of the year. The rest is history. PDV might be a good coach, but forcing him into a position that he was not ready for was the biggest mistake.
He should have assisted or coached in the CC premier league or Super 14 as Jake did. Jumping from junior level rugby to Head coach of the Springboks is a huge jump.
PDV should not be getting the blame. SARU should. Hoskins should. He didn’t appoint himself. If they want to keep him there, rather get a quality consultant…a director of rugby of some sorts.
Were slowly heading back to pre-White era.
5 Jul 2009, 19:23 pm
#40 Moerig: Sorry I said it first ages ago LOL. But I won’t tell anyone.
****’s name is quite apt considering his notorious behaviour on tour. If he concentrated on rugby it would be slightly helpful.
Don’t know Gary Gould personally but of the stories I hear Noddy or Big Ears would coach forwards just as well.
5 Jul 2009, 19:25 pm
#41 WilladieLeeu: True. Hoskins and the small Unions have continued to be a thorn in the side o rugby rather than promoters of it.
5 Jul 2009, 19:27 pm
Terrible Trio??? Did we lose against the Lions??
5 Jul 2009, 19:29 pm
Excellent article one again.
Probably give a couple of blogger a racism hernia, but fact is fact.
5 Jul 2009, 19:30 pm
#44 RugbyStudent:
Who are the Lions? Under par NH teams combined. Were measured solely against our SH opponents. His first year in Tri-nations 2 out of 6 with a full squad of non-injured players.
I bet you we’ll only win one this year. Aus in SA.
5 Jul 2009, 19:30 pm
bring in Meyer before its too late.
5 Jul 2009, 19:31 pm
Great stuff
Federererer wins
5 Jul 2009, 19:32 pm
Yarra Yarra Yarra Yarra Rich.
It must really grate you to know that the coach you described as an embarrassment to Bok rugby has kept on winning.
It must really grate you that the guy ‘who supposedly’ is holding this team together was taken out of the French rugby wilderness by this coach to come and captain the Boks again saying that he was honored and privileged to work under PDV.
It must really piss you off that this team, that only achieved a 66% overall record uner White, and lost more than they would have liked to against the top teams in the world, is now suddenly winning more than what they did under the previous coach!
But I reckon, none of this comes close to the fact that someone, who has given you the middle finger as a coach, who cannot speak (read bullshit) his way around the media and kiss your ***, is proving you (who know f-all about the game – I mean let’s be honest, you are only a journalist) wrong as he goes along.
Fok…
I cannot wait to read the bile if this oke manages to coach a team to a 3N victory this year!
I live in hope.
(Then again, you live in fear – I like where I am sitting)
5 Jul 2009, 19:33 pm
#45 Bul-a-Bhloo: anyone who says anything bad against PdV is a racist…according to some. but i don’t give a damn.. bring in Meyer.
5 Jul 2009, 19:33 pm
#46 WilladieLeeu:
Sorry I’m wrong. We’ll win the one against the AB’s in SA. Not against Aus.
1 out of 6.
5 Jul 2009, 19:33 pm
#44 RugbyStudent: No, but it was a close call. Much closer than it should have been.
We will see what happens in the 3N. I will be the first to redub them the Holy Trinity if the Boks manage to not end up with the wooden spoon.
But somehow I doubt it.
5 Jul 2009, 19:34 pm
Me out – series won 2-1.
Next up, Tri-Nations.
See you then.
5 Jul 2009, 19:35 pm
#49 PissAnt: Would it not be true to say that John Smit was in dire need to come back to SA as his wife HATED France. In fact she was already back in Durban long before the news broke.
Probably saved more than his rugby career.
Good job Snor did that in many respects, probably the only way the team has hung together for so long.
No coincidence that the new look team yesterday had no direction as they didn’t know Jakes drills
5 Jul 2009, 19:37 pm
#49 PissAnt:
Compare results year to year. Not one year compared to four years.
Jake’s first year – Tri-nations champs. Coach of the year, team of the year.
PDV first year – wooden spoon. 19-0 at home. First consecutive losses in SA since inception of Tri-nations. First time since 2000 to lose against Aus.
5 Jul 2009, 19:39 pm
Please keep the “brilliant” Pieter De Villiers as coach.The rest of the world will finally begin to realise what we are up against. Sanity will hardly prevail, but at least the world will have an idea of the difficulties we endure to compete equally.
5 Jul 2009, 19:40 pm
#54 goyougoodthing2:
Did not know Jake’s drills?
Team:
Beast (new)
Chili/Bismarck (played under White)
John (played under White)
Vic (played under White)
Muller (played under White)
Brussow (new)
Juan (played under White)
Kanko (played under White)
Fourie/Pienaar (played under White)
Steyn (new)
Olivier (played under White)
Mossie (played under White)
Odwa (played under White)
Nokwe (played under White)
Kirchern (new)
F. Steyn (played under White)
Guthro (played under White)
Carstens (played under White)
Sykes (new – never took the field)
Spies (played under White)
Who did I miss?
I count what?
4 New okes?
5 Jul 2009, 19:40 pm
#54 goyougoodthing2: you speak like an Aussie.
5 Jul 2009, 19:41 pm
#54 goyougoodthing2:
Good one.
5 Jul 2009, 19:41 pm
#46 WilladieLeeu: no c’mon we will come tops
5 Jul 2009, 19:42 pm
Just wait till the pro-Div campaign settles onto this thread and the cheap shots start flying! Ive said for ages that Pdv is harmful to our rugby, he is a weight that the Boks do not need to be carrying. His supporters that cite his record miss the point that he has had almost nothing to do with that record. He is creating a great deal of frustration within in the Bok camp and that shows in out lack of dicipline. It is such a pity that SARU doesn’t have the balls to fire him, in fact his recent outbursts are more than enough reason to tell him where he can go stick it. It was the perfect excuse to rid themselves of this failed experiment so many previous Bok coaches have been fired for less!
5 Jul 2009, 19:42 pm
#57 PissAnt: It’s clear then. Jake phoned up his old pals and asked them to play badly, look like they had no gameplan, to discredit Snor.
PA, those guys yesterday played together once in 2 years, can hardly expect them to do okay with no coaching.
5 Jul 2009, 19:43 pm
#55 WilladieLeeu:
Year to year…
Jake lost in NZ and Aus in year 1.
Jake won the 3N on bonus points.
Jake lost up North EOYT.
PDV won in NZ.
Lost in SA.
NH clean sweep.
You want to go into year two???
I will start that PDV won a test series…
5 Jul 2009, 19:44 pm
#60 byoboy:
5 Jul 2009, 19:45 pm
Facts remain facts.
Players are running the team.
Guy goes from CC training, not even in original 30, straight into team.
Substitutions are crazy.
Brussouw, arguably the Saffa player of the series wasn’t even considered for selection and only got on after Danie was injured.
The players are ill-disciplined and are not motivated.
He does talk **** to the media and has resorted to racial slurs.
Anyone who thinks the team had a plan yesterday is a better man than me.
LASTLY!!! Others are getting feedback from within the team room. Things are not as they appear.
Snor mustn’t go. He must get backup in the form of JW with a few competent asst coaches. Muir wasn’t missed, neither was Gold. There are better.
5 Jul 2009, 19:45 pm
#63 PissAnt: Winning on Bonus Points doesn’t count then PA?
You can do better than that surely.
5 Jul 2009, 19:47 pm
#62 goyougoodthing2:
Make no mistake.
I am pissed off beyond believe about yesterday.
Yo do not;
1) Select a team ‘with the view on a coming series’
2) Put okes in a mix for the first time in months to see how they compare to the incumbents.
It is unfair to the players and proves nothing.
PDV f’ed up, I wanted a 3-0 result.
So I am honestly, and deeply displeased as I sit here now.
PDV has disappointed me big time, but the bile Rich churns up is even worse.
5 Jul 2009, 19:47 pm
#63 PissAnt:
C’mon. The team that Jake started with is a shadow of the experience it has now.
Guys like FDP and Habana made their debut in Jake’s first year. Matfield and Bakkies had combined test caps of 12. John Smit was in his 1st test as official captain.
Look at what team PDV headed up North with.
Year two Jake beat Aus 3 out of 4, 1 out of 2 against NZ. NZ beat us by a bonuspoint (same argumant you have for 2004.
5 Jul 2009, 19:48 pm
#65 Bul-a-Bhloo:
Would JW agree to work with Pdv after all that abuse he took from the arrogant little twerp? Besides Pdv would merely be window dressing then as it is obvious the players are loyal to White and Snor would get marginalised! The only way forward for Bok rugby is to sack the coach and begin afresh while we still have enough time before the next RWC!
5 Jul 2009, 19:49 pm
#66 goyougoodthing2:
I was asked to compare year to year…
We won without breaking the 50% barrier…
In fact, we won without winning away from home…
We walked away with the gold, and at the time I was as happy as I am now winning the Lions series.
Which should give you an idea about my perception about ‘winning’.
5 Jul 2009, 19:50 pm
#68 WilladieLeeu:
Thanks for inflating the argument with a bit of perspective, it is something that the pro-Div lobby doesn’t enjoy(!)
5 Jul 2009, 19:51 pm
#68 WilladieLeeu:
yes they are a shadow…
Back then they could not buy a win in NZ.
Back then they could hardly break the 70% margin.
Today, they are much better than back then.
I am out.
Cheers all.
5 Jul 2009, 19:53 pm
#69 Thameside Bok fan: For R2mil he will. They are both professional coaches. I think they could agree on a way forward.
Strange enough I believe Snor has a lot to offer. He cut his teeth in the lower leagues. He just needs to be guided for a few years on how to operate at this level with players well drilled at franchise level. He needs to lead, not be led.
5 Jul 2009, 19:53 pm
Before I go…
I cannot believe people accused me of being a one-eyed Jake fan for 4 years…
5 Jul 2009, 19:56 pm
I will hold fire until after the Tri-Nations.
I am worried at how hard we make winning look and there have been a few losses which have been indicative of a poorly coached team, but I will sit on the fence until the final results come in for 2009 Tri-Nations.
Another 3rd place from Snorrie and I may just jump on the Snorrie really is kak bandwagon.
5 Jul 2009, 19:57 pm
heaven forbid we get meyer in place of pdv.
divvie might not be worldclass (neither is meyer) but at least the dept of sport has kept quiet.
5 Jul 2009, 19:58 pm
#72 PissAnt:
Your argument is one of a desperate man. Lost to NZ in NZ by 2 points in 2004. Lost to NZ in NZ by 3 points in 2005. Both of them in last minute.
And this might I remind you, was a fantastic All Black team. Not the watered down AB side of 2008.
5 Jul 2009, 19:59 pm
#76 charo: I agree. Foreign is the only way (just like the British press, a foreign coach can’t be accused of racism).
Plus, SA coaching talent is kak.
5 Jul 2009, 20:00 pm
#75 wooden spoon:
I gave him 2 years.
And I agree.
He gave us a 66% result in the Lions series (I expected 100%)
And I expect a 3N win – nothing less.
In my books he is one down even when he won (the series). Let’s see what happens in the next 3 months.
5 Jul 2009, 20:00 pm
#76 charo: A lot of Snor’s success is due to the players HM gave him from the Bulls.
5 Jul 2009, 20:01 pm
#77 WilladieLeeu: hear, hear. Those games were desperately close. And in 2006 we took a second string team.
Comparisons between coaches are just bollocks anyway. Let’s just focus on the present coach. 1 win out of 3 against NZ and 1 win out of 3 against Aus in 2008. Is this what we should be aspiring to if we had any ambition?
5 Jul 2009, 20:02 pm
#77 WilladieLeeu:
I read ‘lost and lost’…
So I presume we … “lost”?
BTW, watered down NZ team in 2008???
Who won the Super 14 (closest we have to test matches in the SH) in 2008?
In fact…
How many teams did we have in the semi’s?
5 Jul 2009, 20:03 pm
Piet is sy eie grootste vyhand. hy moet net bietjie chill.as hy die 3nasies wen moet dit op die eerste leeu toets se patroon wees
5 Jul 2009, 20:03 pm
#67 PissAnt: Nicely said, I agree. Very very poor decision making. I’d never send my A-team to Coverntry 3 weeks before a major event. All it would do would be to unsettle the A-team, leave room for mistrust and self-doubt and hand the B-team an impossible task.
I couldn’t plan a hiding better if I wanted to.
5 Jul 2009, 20:04 pm
I am desperate to go to bed now…
So yes I am desperate…
Night all, and in case you missed it, we just won a Lions series…
Can any of you remember where you were in 1997?
5 Jul 2009, 20:04 pm
Good question. Has SA ever had more than 1 team in the S12/14 semis, other than in 2001 (Sharks and Cats) and 2007 (Sharks and Bulls)?
5 Jul 2009, 20:05 pm
Ciao gents!
5 Jul 2009, 20:06 pm
#82 PissAnt: Sharks who came left to very poor team selection by the Bok coach Muir…
And they came very very left against the ‘Tahs. Muir made a **** of himself
5 Jul 2009, 20:07 pm
#87 PissAnt: cheers!
5 Jul 2009, 20:07 pm
#85 PissAnt: Ja but I am copping it from my British mates. More tries, more points, therefore they are the better team, blah blah blah. I just point to the results and tell them the only thing that counts is that the Boks won the series…
…but they continue to froth at the mouth and proclaim the Boks were lucky, the Boks have no coach, the Boks were worse than the Lions. Damn, it would have been good to smoke them like we should have, just to shout them up properly for another 12 years.
5 Jul 2009, 20:08 pm
#73 Bul-a-Bhloo:
Boet I hate to break it to you but if you still need to learn about coaching at a top level you REALLY shouldn’t be in charge of the World champs……:(
5 Jul 2009, 20:09 pm
#67 PissAnt: if it’s any consolation if SA had whitewashed the Lions that may have been the end of all Lions series, for good.
#75 wooden spoon: I agree, he should be judged on the Tri Nations. With the series already in the bag yesterday didn’t mean a huge deal in the wider scheme of things.
5 Jul 2009, 20:10 pm
#82 PissAnt:
You said we couldn’t buy a victory, was just pointing out how damn close those games were. And then we whipped the AB’s at Ellsipark in 2004. Joubert’s hattrick. What a game that was.
Watered down compared to the 2004 and 2005 AB teams. How many players did the AB’s lose due to their mass exodus.
Last year we had a full strength Springbok World cup winning side. And we beat them in NZ without McCaw and Thorne. But yes, let’s hold our verdict for the Tri-nations.
Gonna be interesting. NZ without Carter. Aus looking better every week-end.
5 Jul 2009, 20:11 pm
#85 PissAnt:
Don’t know where I was, but can remember I was crying.
5 Jul 2009, 20:12 pm
#91 Thameside Bok fan: I prefer coaches (and employees) who never stop learning.
He was selected under unique circumstances. Everyone knows it. He needs assistance. What can I say……
5 Jul 2009, 20:13 pm
#8 Moerig: I think you could just be right there. Really don’t see PdV going until after the world cup but Muir and Gold can be replaced. Get Smal back and a decent backline coach. Maybe Eddie.
5 Jul 2009, 20:13 pm
#91 Thameside Bok fan: Agree, someone earlier asked why Ludeke, Erasmus, Drotske, etc get a couple of years to prove themselves but Snorrie doesn’t. Well the simple answer is that Snorrie is the BOK coach, the coach of the most important team in the country. Thos eother coaches are provincial coaches.
You shouldn’t need to learn your job as a Springbok coach, as you go along.
You could have said the same thing about Jake White, but the difference in 2004 was that there were no better qualified SA coaches interested in the job at the time. The same thing can’t be said when Snorrie was appointed.
5 Jul 2009, 20:14 pm
#96 Puma:
How about Campese? The guys is still in SA?
5 Jul 2009, 20:20 pm
#98 WilladieLeeu: Think he is back in OZ. He was living near where I do in Umhlanga but think he had to move back to OZ. Not sure if its temporary or what.
Yes he could be a good backline coach. Good one never thought of him.
Not sure how good he is to work with the players. Seemed very arrogant to me.
5 Jul 2009, 20:21 pm
#96 Puma: hey Puma… hope you are well mate…
congrats on the series win mate, you guys should all still be enjoying that… can understand to some degree the disappointment at the poor showing in the 3rd… but every team has to evolve (wrongly or rightly), and some of your senior players are going to be very lucky to make it to 2011… look at Schalks fall from grace, his season has been poor, same as Jerry Collins when he fell…
better to suffer a few minor setbacks (as the 3rd test was) now, in dead games, then like the ABs at a WC…
and my money is on the first test side to start against the ABs in the 3Ns… PDV was loyal to Schalk in the second because Schalk deserved to start given his service to SA rugby… (Lions series usually only come once in a players lifetime)
but more questions I feel were answered by the 3rd test, rather then creating more unanswered questions…
5 Jul 2009, 20:23 pm
#99 Puma:
Wasn’t he the Shark’s backline coach in ’07 when they mad ethe final? Sure he way.
JPP was the leading try-scorer and their backline was very potent.
5 Jul 2009, 20:25 pm
#100 poppa69: good post Poppa. There is always a silver lining, I guess.
5 Jul 2009, 20:25 pm
#93 WilladieLeeu: Agree think OZ is the team to beat this year. They are looking really good.
I still never count out the ABs they always come back. They will be ready for us in a few weeks time. Just hope we will be.
We select right and get no injuries and no daft game plan this time. We could do it. Must win the first one in Bloemfontein. Durban seems to be good for the ABs.
Just think its good that they Oz and Abs are playing first. Lets us have a good look at what to expect from them.
5 Jul 2009, 20:27 pm
As an aside, I see Stuart Dickenson’s record in matches involving SA stands as follows:
8 matches
7 losses to SA
The last 4 games have been consecutive losses
Lol, where are the conspiracy theorists when you need them.
5 Jul 2009, 20:27 pm
Usual teeth knashing going on here I see
GUMS GUARDS R10 EACH
AVAILABLE IN GREEN & GOLD
EMBOSSED WITH BOK & PROTEA EMBLEMS
LIMITED STOCK AVAILABLE
SO SHOW YOU’RE A “SUPPORTER” AND GET YOURS QUICK
5 Jul 2009, 20:27 pm
#101 WilladieLeeu: Yes he was but not last year. Think he was coaching some school in Durban North. Then heard he left early this year and went back to OZ. Not sure if its for good or just temporary.
5 Jul 2009, 20:29 pm
#104 wooden spoon: Then again he is a good tmo for us
5 Jul 2009, 20:29 pm
#97 wooden spoon:
All coaches learn all the time
Ask Nick Mallet
He selects flanks as scrummies
5 Jul 2009, 20:29 pm
cyber stalker has arrived.
5 Jul 2009, 20:29 pm
#90 wooden spoon: Hi Spooner, I watched the match only this afternoon and I have to agree with your British mates!! Heheheheeh…..
I can’t believe I come home and they go and win without me!!
5 Jul 2009, 20:30 pm
#108 saffa_guy: a lesson in stupidity more like it.
5 Jul 2009, 20:30 pm
All this bile directed at PdV and did anyone actually watch this series? The BIL were miles ahead in retaining possession, in offloading and varying their play. Our guys just charged around like Buffalos intent on goring the BIL..and then falling over with the ball still to hand. Maybe this was PdV’s fault but I wonder, it does not sound like his style.
Let’s face it we played 80 minutes of rugby (40 Durb,40 Pretoria) and the BIL played 160…. we were lucky, very lucky.
PdV is unlikely to go away and the chances are he would be replaced with someone even worse, based on SA politics. Like the Border Union assistant schools coach or something. Maybe the best thing is better sub-coaches than Muir or Gold.
In fact after the debacle at Ellis Park I really am lost for words. Once the BIL outmuscled us in the collisions, we had less clue than my aunt Sally. We panicked, became undisciplined, had zero attack variation and so on. If SA can only blame PdV when the Lions 2nd string whipped us and we have a long 3N before us, we are in trouble indeed.
5 Jul 2009, 20:30 pm
#109 wooden spoon: Who’s that??
5 Jul 2009, 20:33 pm
#72 PissAnt: The reason we won in new Zealand is that the super 14 sides have slowly been learning how to win there and they are bringing that experience to the national side.
5 Jul 2009, 20:34 pm
#113 carol: never mind. Did you have a good trip to SA? Which part did you like the most?
5 Jul 2009, 20:36 pm
Rugby365 –
Judicial officer Alan Hudson of Canada suspended Shaw for two weeks, which was deferred to conclude at midnight on August 22.
He is the second Lion to be cited and suspended on the tour. The first was Nathan Hines for a dangerous tackle in the match against the Emerging Springboks.
However, what makes Shaw’s “ban” so ridiculous is that he will not miss a single game, even with the deferment till August 22, as the Northern Hemisphere is now in hiatus and there won’t be any rugby for him to play till the pre-season in September.
This should also been seen in the light of the same judicial officer, Hudson, handing down a two-week ban to Bok lock Bakkies Botha – which ruled the South African out of the third Test.
Hudson found Botha guilty of transgressing Law 10.4 (j) by “dangerously” charging into a ruck without binding on a player – in the second Test.
Hudson’s ruling against Botha sparked wide condemnation of the entire judicial process and resulted in the Boks staging an on-field protest at the weekend by wearing white armbands with the word ‘justice’ in print on it.
Bok captain John Smit, who received support from the Lions management and team members over the Botha ban, said at a media briefing that the ban may well be victimisation of the Bok lock.
The meaningless ban handed down to Shaw, along with the fact that at least two other Lions players should have been cited for foul play in the third Test, will add further weight to the argument that South African players are being unfairly treated at judicial hearings.
It is pretty obvious that Hudson, in his own rulings in two cases on tour, have not been consistent – which has already resulted in calls for the IRB to step in and stop the farcical situation to escalate.
New Zealand citing officer Steve Hinds – who also cited Botha for what both the Bok and Lions camps described as a perfectly legal ‘clean-out’ – cited Shaw, but overlooked at least two other incidents far worse than that of which Botha was pointed out for.
There were calls for both Lions scrumhalf Mile Phillips and No.8 Jamie Heaslip to be cited for foul play.
Phillips’ high tackle on Jaque Fourie resulted in the Bok centre having to leave the field in order to receive medical treatment.
But an even worse oversight by Hinds was his failure to cite Heaslip, after the Irishman charged into a ruck – from the side and without any attempt to use his arms. It not only left Bok hooker Chiliboy Ralepelle dazed, but also contributed to the South African No.2′s failure to take the field after half-time
5 Jul 2009, 20:36 pm
#108 saffa_guy: I wondered why he did that at the time but then I seen the other Italian scrum-half Canvoisio play in the first test v Australia. He made Bergamsco look like a God at 9, he was terrible.
Italy then picked this 19 year old kid to face NZ and I think they’ve found themselves a star. Tebaldi, remember the name.
5 Jul 2009, 20:36 pm
#100 poppa69: Very good mate, Hope you well too poppa.
I agree yes, only really felt so frustrated that he neve selected a full strength team for the 3rd game at Ellis Park.
It sort of takes away respect for the jersey that and alway insults the Lions. As we were still in a series playing with them. Should always select the best when play for the Boks. Always. I never ever would agree to a understrength side in a test. Even when Jake took a understrength side to Oz and Nz in the world cup I never agreed with that.
Well at least we do know now who needs more time and wont start against Oz or the Abs. The both the wings and Zane need more time and Muller really cant play 4. WO also really not sure now if he is just a Super 14 player or needs more time to play tests. Chili was fine but really we needed Bissie for the scrum. Our scrum struggled without him there. I too would just keep playing Ruan at FH. M. Steyn that I had said 2 weeks back should start. Not so sure now.
So yes in that way it gives us a good idea who our best 15 is but it should never ever be tired out during a test. Especially in a series. Not fair on the touring team either or the Supporters that paid a lot of money to see the best.
5 Jul 2009, 20:41 pm
I’m outta here. Till next time.
5 Jul 2009, 20:41 pm
#110 carol: Congrats on the Lions win yesterday Carol. They played really well.
5 Jul 2009, 20:42 pm
#119 wooden spoon: Cheers spooner.
Why the Wooden in your nic again? hehe
5 Jul 2009, 20:42 pm
#115 wooden spoon: Excellent trip thanks however difficult to say which bit was best because the parts were so different. Spent most time in Cape Town, did the tourist bits and was entertained by Grant and the blonde and had a ball.
Got a bit choked up when I saw Loftus on the pre Lions match replays because we had such a good time there with GBs and the ‘boys’only last weekend.
Hey Ho !! Back to reality!
5 Jul 2009, 20:43 pm
#114 Oxy moron: We won because of plain blind luck!
#106 Puma: I hear Campo thought he should be either the Head Coach or the Director of Rugby type job at the Sharks… got too big for his boots.
5 Jul 2009, 20:44 pm
#120 Puma: Hi Puma, I only saw the match this afternoon so am still on a bit of a high….Thanks for the congrats, those boys did us proud in the end!
Hey with your knees how do you climb the dizzy heights of The Asba Stadium?
5 Jul 2009, 20:44 pm
#82 PissAnt: I think it’s more of an indication on how new Zealand are held in such high regard even when they are “watered down”
5 Jul 2009, 20:45 pm
#118 Puma: can understand the frustration…
but with 2 years to the WC, now is the time to see who “has it” and who doesnt… in a dead test match seems the sensible time…
you could throw these guys in against lesser opposition, such as a fiji or to some extent scotland… but thats still not going to give you a true indication of how a player handles the intensity of top level test match rugby…
5 Jul 2009, 20:47 pm
#124 carol: It was not that bad Carol. I was sitting in the West Stand only had to climb about 3 steps. So it was fine.
Had such a great time with the Lions supporters. Was one of the best days at rugby I have ever had with supporters from the otherside. A really jolly bunch and what a laugh we all had.
Yesterday I was in the box so not that much of a vibe there. Got the lift up to the box so no steps to climb..hehe. Still froze my butt off. Joburg is really cold at the moment.
5 Jul 2009, 20:48 pm
#109 wooden spoon:
No stalking needed
Your posting are just transparent
Lose the need for alter egos as a means to air your political views
Let Wooden Spoon be who he is
Centre right political views included
5 Jul 2009, 20:50 pm
#121 Puma: hiyas bro
5 Jul 2009, 20:50 pm
Hello Carol and Puma
5 Jul 2009, 20:51 pm
#128 saffa_guy: lol, trace routes not included though.
5 Jul 2009, 20:51 pm
#124 carol: Where did you sit Carol in the East Stand? It sure does go very high up there.
#126 poppa69: Agree with you poppa but we missed a really great opportunity to whitewash them for the very first time in history. Most coaches would have gone with a full strength team. PdV had 10 changes. Thats way, way too much. They seemed to be all over the show. Tempers too were rising yesterday. Not a good match to watch if you were a Bok supporter. Knew the Lions would get us with that team.
One thing though. Frans Steyn must be our FB. He was impressive when he came on. I know he had some off the ball stuff which was daft but his play was superb. Must always start.
5 Jul 2009, 20:51 pm
Must go now though.
Cheers Carol, glad to hear you had a really good time in our beautiful country.
5 Jul 2009, 20:52 pm
Carol did you enjoy South Africa
Hope you went to Clifton beach, not the right time of year but still nice
5 Jul 2009, 20:53 pm
#129 sharks_lover: Howzit mate.
#130 CoachPete: Jeez howzit Coach have not seen you around here for a very long time. Maybe just on at a different time to me. How you been? Did you have a good 4th of July yesterday?
5 Jul 2009, 20:54 pm
#132 Puma:
Yep F steyn is a 15 been saying that for moons like you Puma
J fourie needs to find a place in team.
#8 still a problem.
Front row still worries me
5 Jul 2009, 20:55 pm
#135 Puma:
yes thanks i took a bit of a break from Keo.
I have been watching all games so still very informed about our boks
5 Jul 2009, 20:56 pm
Superbru game.
The pool code for Keo,s Night Owl 3 Nation is clamjoke
5 Jul 2009, 20:57 pm
#123 goyougoodthing2: Not sure what happened. Just know they never renewed his contract.
Then was coaching I think Northlands Boys High. Now back in OZ I heard. Went back early this year in Jan I think. Not sure if its for good or temporary.
Our backline was good though when he was coaching. He is very arrogant though.
5 Jul 2009, 20:57 pm
#127 Puma: Joburg did look cold, the guys wearing the lions suits with the big heads were in our hotel and said in Durban and Pretoria they sweated in Cape Town they were cosy so I assume they were glad of them yesterday!! The Boks on the bench looked frozen!!
Bet they would liked to have been sitting in your box!
Did you hear us singing in the corridors and stairways as we were going into the match at the Asba the atmosphere was awesome I am so glad you enjoyed having us along!!
The Bok fans were a pretty good natured bunch we found by and large…I think they were a bit bemused by some of the antics!!
5 Jul 2009, 20:58 pm
#135 Puma: i went to the sharks puma game on friday
had a few drinks with the players , was lotta fun
5 Jul 2009, 20:58 pm
#140 carol:
Carol has forgotten me
5 Jul 2009, 20:59 pm
keep pdv as head coach – we really don’t have anyone better locally.
but gg and dm are not up to scratch it seems.
would love to see plum and slapchips in the mix.
5 Jul 2009, 21:00 pm
#132 Puma: yeah, question is Puma, does Frans see himself as a FB now? hasnt he wanted to play no. 10 ?
and agree, ten changes was way to many… 3 or 4 wouldnt have been a problem…
5 Jul 2009, 21:00 pm
#134 CoachPete: Hi Coach, delighted to Grant10 took me to all four beaches!! Quite a work out going up and down all those steps!
He has said we have to come back in summer….Mmmmm sounds like a brilliant plan!
How are you doing these days?
5 Jul 2009, 21:01 pm
#142 CoachPete: Nooooo, never just multitasking hence the slowness. My American based old buddy!! How could I forget you?
5 Jul 2009, 21:01 pm
#136 CoachPete: Yes Frans must now just be left to play FB all the time. Even if he goes overseas. PdV must select him. Was very impressed when he came on yesterday. Really a world class player and now has found his right position.
I too am a bit worried about the front line. Maybe John should move back to hooker, beast stay at loosehead and bring back CJ or BJ for TH. Wonder if Heinke can change to TH? I know he is injured but damn such a strong oke that.
Felt really let down yesterday that we had to watch a understrength Bok team. Not fair on the supporters really who paid a lot for their tickets. I got box tickets so wont complain there..hehe. Still wanted to see a good contest.
5 Jul 2009, 21:01 pm
#143 charo:
jake White maybe????
5 Jul 2009, 21:02 pm
#133 wooden spoon: Cheers Spooner!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:02 pm
#148 CoachPete:
Are you out of your cotton picking mind?
5 Jul 2009, 21:05 pm
#148 CoachPete: Agree as DOR. Plus new assistant coaches.
5 Jul 2009, 21:05 pm
#132 Puma: East upper Block GG Row AA (So high I nearly had a nose bleed) !!;-)
5 Jul 2009, 21:05 pm
#143 charo: Now you talking charo. Would love to see Plum there too. Great forward coach. Rossouw for backline coach he has done wonders with the Bulls.
#144 poppa69: Well that is the only position open in the Bok squad for him and he must now just grab it with both hands.
I think after the S14 he must know now he is not a FH. I think he can play inside centre well too but must just keep playing at FB now.
5 Jul 2009, 21:05 pm
#146 carol:
I was kidding carol me old? I feel like I am 25
Carol I grew up on those beaches My real home.
#147 Puma:
yes you are right I still like Bismark nice and agressive.
I think we have a great selections of Hookers, better than Chilli IMO
Yes Beast mayb e to loose head and a specialist tight head.
What do you think of Fourie getting a place somewhere?
5 Jul 2009, 21:06 pm
Gavin Rich just like Mark Keohane and his goody gumdrop two shoes disciples are on their anti PdV crusade since PdV got the ticket, and now since they all joined forces in this ‘winning ways’ program of self improvement ideology, they are sharpening their blood soaked daggers in eager anticipation for the coup de grace same as that they afforded Loffie at GRU.
5 Jul 2009, 21:07 pm
#150 skopskiet:
I thought that would bring you in to the debate
No just mentioned it so i could talk to you
5 Jul 2009, 21:07 pm
#150 skopskiet: Hi Skop, now be honest…….were the Lions GOOD or what???
5 Jul 2009, 21:08 pm
#148 CoachPete:
are you mental mate?
5 Jul 2009, 21:08 pm
#153 Puma: I tend to think he plays a little selfishly at centre IMO… but he showed in the 3rd test how hard he can be to stop with ball in hand… strong boy…
5 Jul 2009, 21:08 pm
#152 carol: hehe. You could have taken off from there
It is very high up. At least you got to sit in the sun then..hehe. It was freezing in Joburg yesterday. Most of the Lions supporters just had shorts and t-shirts on. How they do it I have no idea. I had a huge jacket on with scarf the whole lot and still froze my butt off….hehe.
The stands at Ellis Park are very high up too.
5 Jul 2009, 21:10 pm
#158 charo:
I was kidding maybe time to get a Kiwi or Aussie coach for a change, and teach him Afrikaans
5 Jul 2009, 21:10 pm
#154 CoachPete: Glad to hear you are so ‘perky’.
Clifton would be a wonderful place to grow up in, especially if you didn’t mind cold seawater!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:12 pm
#153 Puma:
plum is a hard-arsed coach.
watched the sharks warming up before a game. the players were smiling and laughing with the assistant coaches.
plum arrived and everything changed. all became deadly serious.
he takes no **** this guy.
5 Jul 2009, 21:12 pm
My prediction is that if he PDV ends up last in trinations he is gone. Boks have a chance to win tri nations this year.
5 Jul 2009, 21:12 pm
#159 poppa69: Yes you right poppa he can be a bit selfish playing inside centre. Needs to pass more there.
Yesterday he was very impressive. Such a strong youngster. Took a few to get him down. Also can tackle the life out of the opposition. Would never like to be brought down by him
Really wish they spoke him in to staying here until the world cup. I think PdV may not choose him now that he will be leaving. Its a pity. Us at the Sharks are sure going to miss him. I know I will. Those that booed him well they will know what they will miss in him now that he wont be there next year. Always got booed at the Tank by his own supporters when he missed his drop kicks. Daft supporters really doing that.
5 Jul 2009, 21:13 pm
#162 carol:
With all the hot ladies walking around the cold water was often needed.
5 Jul 2009, 21:15 pm
#161 CoachPete:
wouldn’t we all.
not possible with stofile and co around – tools of note.
5 Jul 2009, 21:15 pm
#161 CoachPete: heres my application for the job coachpete…
vat so katvis
do I get the job ??
5 Jul 2009, 21:15 pm
#160 Puma: I still have my Durban ‘T shirt tan’….
Before I went you said it would be cold enough for a padded jacket……I laughed and thought these South Africans are such softees…..well I froze at Newlands and the Pretoria nights ‘Eish’ as you would say!! Pretty darn chilly…. Mind you GBS crammed about 6 of us in his car and turned the heating up full blast so we thawed out then!!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:16 pm
#67 PissAnt:
One will never get anything into some thick indoctrinated heads, ever, like busting your head against brick walls, and believe me there are plenty more brick walls in here and in journalist circles that anyone needs to look out for, in fact you don’t need to go looking for these brick walls, they come looking for you.
5 Jul 2009, 21:16 pm
#165 Puma: yep big loss him going overseas… shame when they leave that young, I felt similar when we lost Evans to the NH…
5 Jul 2009, 21:16 pm
#154 CoachPete: Yes I think that JF should start too. Think we have all said that this season. I would bring Adi off the bench to run the opposition off their feet.
#163 charo: Thats what we need for our Boks. Think PdV will be there no matter what until 2011 but the backline and forward coach can be changed. I just don’t rate Muir or Gold.
5 Jul 2009, 21:16 pm
#168 poppa69:
you could get my vote
Not bad keep working on it
5 Jul 2009, 21:17 pm
#173 CoachPete:
5 Jul 2009, 21:18 pm
#170 skopskiet:
Must be working on a couple of good brick jobs there Skoppie
5 Jul 2009, 21:18 pm
#157 carol:
Lions were very good Carol, unlike our bunch of chop heads chopping themselves in the head.
5 Jul 2009, 21:18 pm
#161 CoachPete: Here is my application to be coach -
“Lekker ding, jy is baaie oulik en dis ‘n voorreg om jou te ken!!!
Howzat…. ??
5 Jul 2009, 21:19 pm
#171 poppa69: He is only 22! Why the heck leave now? He should have stayed on until the wc 2011 and only left then. Would only be 24 then. So very young.
Once they go to the NH they never seem to come back the same player. Takes time to get back into it here. Just had to see it took Victor and John awhile to settle back into SH rugby after their six months in France.
5 Jul 2009, 21:20 pm
#168 poppa69: If we are doing it on words, I did more than you!! Heheheeh
5 Jul 2009, 21:20 pm
#176 skopskiet: Well said skop we were just useless yesterday.
5 Jul 2009, 21:21 pm
#177 carol:
Its very good carol but unfortunately it makes sense.
Now just say a few things like that dont make sense
I would vote for you on yoru good looks alone
5 Jul 2009, 21:21 pm
#175 CoachPete:
wishful thinking Coach
#167 charo: howsit charo boet, your Sharkie greats kapitan Muller and Kanko had great games yesterday wouldn’t you say, front row not too shabby neither, now all we need is for Carstens to start then we should really get some good front foot ball going, or what say?
5 Jul 2009, 21:24 pm
#182 skopskiet:
yep same here things are slow
Skoppie what is your assessment on PDV after this lions tour?
5 Jul 2009, 21:26 pm
#176 skopskiet: I always have a soft spot for the Boks…..yesterday just didn’t go their way!
5 Jul 2009, 21:26 pm
#169 carol: I told you it gets really freezing at night in the highveld. Like a desert climate in the winter. Great warm days but freezing once the sun goes down.
Durban is very different. Nice a warm in the day and not too cold at night. I only wore a Bok t-shirt and shorts to the test in Durban but here in Joburg yesterday it was really freezing. Days will warm up though we have had a cold snap think it snowed in the Berg mountains again.
Durban is still lovely and warm around 25 still in the day. Love it there. Cant wait to go back. Only came up for the test but will stay a week or so.
5 Jul 2009, 21:26 pm
#179 carol: yeah, but I was being a gentleman and letting the lady have the final say, they usually have more to say anyways
lmao
#178 Puma: totally agree mate… seen the same when they rushed McAllister back (injured I know, but still)…
who knows, perhaps he may play up there for a couple of years, really learn and hone his skills in the FB position, then come back in time for 2015… though he has already won a WC,so perhaps he feels he needs new challenges…
#181 CoachPete: awww, no one told me it was on looks coach… never stood a chance…
5 Jul 2009, 21:28 pm
#186 poppa69:
Yeah and after carol its Skoppie
5 Jul 2009, 21:29 pm
#181 CoachPete: Lets try this one, I hope its not rude…
Hey het nie al sy varkies op hok nie !!!
Btw are you refering to my Superbru image!! I may need to change it!
5 Jul 2009, 21:29 pm
#184 carol: Our coach had 10 changes to the test in Pretoria. Why I have no idea. For me it was a insult to the Lions really. He just wanted to give the fringe players a game that we had won the series already. Not good enough from him. Should always treat the opposition with respect and play your best. Well good it backfired on him and really not nice for the Bok supporters that paid a lot of money for the tickets to watch the best.
Ag, thats our coach for you.
5 Jul 2009, 21:29 pm
#187 CoachPete: enjoy the series pete?
5 Jul 2009, 21:30 pm
#189 Puma: meant from the test in Pretoria.
5 Jul 2009, 21:30 pm
#44 RugbyStudent: 28-9. Biggest thrashing in over 100 years. The answer’s yes.
5 Jul 2009, 21:31 pm
#188 carol:
Yes and Yes. You have the bok jersey on right?
5 Jul 2009, 21:31 pm
#187 CoachPete: its all good coach… know when Im beaten… who wants a 2 metre, olive skinned, 100 kg maori boy as their coach…
better a blonde and the magic of skop anyday
5 Jul 2009, 21:31 pm
#183 CoachPete:
Difficult to sum up, not knowing the inner workings of the dynamics there, he picked Muir and Gold as backs and forwards coaches, I think he prefers to coach from out a consential setup giving JS, DM. GG and VM a lot of say and input on how they do things on a conglomerate level, I see DM doing much of the chit chat with regard strategies etc, so so far difficult to say how good or how bad he actually is.
I thought as a group they were getting along great before, but it could be a setup on tenterhooks, not too sure from where I sit here.
I go with Pissant, let down badly yesterday should never have gone with a makeshift setup into a 3rd test where we should have tried a 3-0 whitewash, but even at full strength we are lacking seriously at some facets, like front row, need some props asap. and backup locks for VM and BB, Muller a dead loss, not sold on DR either,.
So total overview is that although everybody writing up how great this team was under White they were never tested at this level, and when we traveled to NH before we lost more than won, even with OS and CJ up front.
The great myth that this team was indestructible is just that a big myth, time to start building again, almost from scratch and bring in young eager and hard working players, Brussow is just the beginning, need the rest of them too, like Vermeulen, Potgieter and some others.
5 Jul 2009, 21:33 pm
#186 poppa69: Think maybe he feels he has done it all now. A World Cup medal and a Lions series win.
He should have stayed to play in the wc cup in New Zealand. I think he may regret that when he sees all the players in the wc playing then.
Probably wants to explore living in Europe now. Bigg loss for Bok and Shark rugby though.
5 Jul 2009, 21:33 pm
#185 Puma: In Durban it was lovely spending the evening at Joe Cools just in summer clothes, mind you dancing with the ‘Lions Legends’ players did raise the temperature!! Gareth Llewellyn was very ‘hot’ heheheh, but a perfect gentleman I hasten to add!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:33 pm
#190 Big Hit:
Hey BH yes i did 1st 2 tests
yesterday was pretty much predictable except the score.
I see my boy Croft did very well on toru as i predicted
5 Jul 2009, 21:34 pm
#195 skopskiet: I wouldn’t read too much into the 3rd test. The Lions lost the 3rd test in 1997 too, it didn’t really matter to be honest the series was won.
5 Jul 2009, 21:34 pm
Okay I am out of here.
Cheers Carol, Coach, Poppa and all.
5 Jul 2009, 21:35 pm
#198 CoachPete: Croft was good, but Ferris would’ve started had he not been injured, both great players but Ferris world class I think.
5 Jul 2009, 21:35 pm
#182 skopskiet:
skoppie, i am fine thanks. you sound in a good mood tonight.
gone back on the expat circuit and blogging from accra ghana.
re the sharks players – funny haha.
sarcasm ain’t your long suit.
still reckon kanko would be a star behind the full pack.
saw him rip wales apart in cardiff, scoring with a solo run from halfway.
5 Jul 2009, 21:35 pm
#4 Big Hit:
Come on mate, PdV is a muppet.. how much credibility does a moron like him have after the comments he makes. He inherited a strong bok team, seriously!
5 Jul 2009, 21:37 pm
#189 Puma: We were able to watch the Bakkies incident thing on the replay today and did agree the judgement was harsh, I always look forward to Bakkies playing. But it is a shame when the ones you want to watch are sidelined, however the youngsters do need to get gametime, you have to look to the future!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:37 pm
#197 carol: Pleased you enjoyed Joe Cools. Its been there for years right on the Beach Front. Nice weather in Durban during the winter. Only just too hot and humid in the summer. Still love it there though.
Pleased you enjoyed your trip over to SA. You have to come for longer and go to some of the game parks the next time.
Also don’t go via Kenya!!! hehe. Go via the Dutch Air Lines they have lots of specials over to here.
Cheers Carol. Out of here now.
5 Jul 2009, 21:37 pm
#200 Puma: cheers Puma, enjoy your day mate…
5 Jul 2009, 21:38 pm
#200 Puma: See you Puma, nice to catch up!
5 Jul 2009, 21:38 pm
#205 Puma: Noted…..thanks!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:38 pm
#195 skopskiet:
Yes i agree with what you say. Especially locks and DR, and props
Yes I tink bothof us with some others have always liked Brussow and I have said vermeulen at 8 for some time
I think we need to take the positive out tof the win and build towards 2011.
I am worried about how much longer smit can continue as a prop or even hooker
5 Jul 2009, 21:39 pm
Fire the Clown
5 Jul 2009, 21:39 pm
#203 StormForce: he inherited a strong team and messed up the 3N (although he did have key injuries), but since then he has changed tactics and completed an unbeaten EOYT and Lions series. His media comments are neither here nor there, he was mis-interpreted. Judge him on the 3N.
5 Jul 2009, 21:39 pm
#204 carol: I know your all your coaches said it was unfair on Bakkies.
I know we need to play the youngsters but not in such a important test. Rather against Fiji or one of the Islands. Or bring them off the bench. Not change 10 all at once. Will never work.
Now really out of here Carol. Cheers.
5 Jul 2009, 21:39 pm
#201 Big Hit:
Sighhhh, at last……A WIN…
5 Jul 2009, 21:41 pm
#205 Puma:
Cheers Puma
5 Jul 2009, 21:42 pm
Oh and skoppie I give PDV one more chance this Tri nations and if boks end up last he is gone IMO
and I find him a spokesperson for his media duties
5 Jul 2009, 21:43 pm
#213 carol: we did ok overall, played 11, lost 2, drew 1. Pushed the series close and secured the future of the Lions. It’s not a win but we won here last time, can’t win em all.
5 Jul 2009, 21:44 pm
what would pdv say to gavin rich on this article?”i don’t give a damn what you think of me”.mark keohane must be the biggest arsehole for a journalist.first he tried to get rid of jake as a coach but was unsuccessful in that attempt and as we all know by now he had to turn around and unashamedly suck jake’s balls since world cup 2007 until kingdom come.keohane is now on the same mission to get rid of pdv but again he refuses to grasp the fact that he is just a small-time averaged journalist that has no clout in the sa rugby decision making process.keohane is probably the only one together with a few blind followers on keo who believes in his own self-importance.wake up and smell the coffe mr.keohane,you are just a squeaky little mouse in the bigger scheme of things called sa rugby.they (saru)might hear you but they won’t take notice of you because you are just a harmless litte mouse.
5 Jul 2009, 21:45 pm
Ok guys Nice to see you all again.
Cheers Carol, Skoppie BH, Poppa and others
oh BH we were better than Lions sorry mate
5 Jul 2009, 21:46 pm
#218 CoachPete: catch ya coach… look forward to chatting come 3Ns…
5 Jul 2009, 21:46 pm
#186 poppa69: Sorry I missed that one!! lol…
5 Jul 2009, 21:47 pm
#218 CoachPete: didn’t say otherwise
5 Jul 2009, 21:47 pm
I never heard of a coach in SA who the media likes all the time, but maybe judge him after the Tri Nations. Not sure if his technical skills are bad and his tactics are sometimes inexperienced/naive, he could have given other players game time without risking the 3rd test, maybe 5 changes instead of 10 … at least start the test with experience to stabilise things
He’s lack of media experience is also making him an easy target and more of a worry is the increasing lack of discipline from the players, with him not exactly a great example of control.
Did think the referees in this series where a load of **** as well
5 Jul 2009, 21:47 pm
#218 CoachPete: See you Coach, it’s been fun are you doing superbru currie cup btw?
5 Jul 2009, 21:48 pm
#220 carol: thought you had seen it and were ignoring me lol
5 Jul 2009, 21:48 pm
#199 Big Hit:
we were really poor yesterday, a ship with no rudder, but it started from the front, and Smit without Bakkies behind him is an anchor in quick sands.
We made some poor strategic decisions in all 3 tests were lucky to come away with a series win at the end of it, Your team overall I think a shade better than the final result. We were lucky, same as you were in ’97.
#202 charo:
Nice one charo, Ghana I hear quite a vibrant country since Idi got booted back in the 70′s now one of the jewels of Africa. Wouldn’t mind visiting there myself.
Re Kanko he’s just too lightweight for this intensity type game, fine in open easy encounters where open running is on the cards and defenses aren’t in our faces, but even Spies and/or Kanko not really the 1st rate No.8′s we require, Vermeulen the best of the bunch for the real classic 8 job, bring Spies or Kanko on after all the hard yards have been done and dusted.
5 Jul 2009, 21:48 pm
#217 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo: If that was true what does it make you?
Diddley squat or lower than snake sh*t. You choose…
5 Jul 2009, 21:49 pm
#216 Big Hit: I thought we would be walked all over and actually on reflection ‘our boys dun good’…. sadly not good enough, but it could have been horrible!! Lol
5 Jul 2009, 21:49 pm
#218 CoachPete: so long C.pete
5 Jul 2009, 21:50 pm
#219 poppa69:
Yep I look forward to it.
#221 Big Hit:
Ok we agree
#223 carol:
Maybe, but Tri nations for sure.
Cheers
5 Jul 2009, 21:50 pm
#225 skopskiet: Actually Ida was Uganda…….
5 Jul 2009, 21:51 pm
Trinations, the “REAL” tournament
5 Jul 2009, 21:52 pm
#225 skopskiet: I think the Lions just wanted it more, just like the Boks in the 3rd test in 1997. I don’t buy into the luck thing, the Lions choked when it was on and they had the opportunities, the Boks didn’t and they had the composure, that’s how it goes. Credit to PDV and the management team, they did the business.
5 Jul 2009, 21:53 pm
#224 poppa69: Noo, so which of us did coach give the job too?
You the bloke that actually knows about rugby or me the blonde that has about 20 Afrikaans words up her sleeve.
I pronounce Wynard Olivier VERY differently to them!!
I was doing my best Afrikaans for GBS and he thought it was hysterical…..I don’t know why!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:54 pm
Man I wish the kiwis had kicked out Graham Henry and taken on Deans – then we could have had Henry… Jeez we would be unstoppable.
Why is it that we are always shooting ourselves in the foot with coaches?
First off, we have a great coach (Mallett), getting records in the professional era fro consecutive wins. But he loses a once off RWC on bad selections. And he says the ticket prices are too high, stating the opbvious, and he is gone for a dumb reason.
We then hire two absolutely rubbish coaches (Harry & Rudolph)with **** experience, no record of winning anything big and no clue about man management. They tarnish our record and reptation with stupid coaching – no surprises there.
We then hire a person (Jake) with no experience at the top levels, who we luck out on as he happens to have some sense about him, and at least knows enough about man management to build some experience within the team, laying the foundations for a RWC win (regardless of whether or not he was technically astute). At the very least, Jake had vision, despite the criticisms of him, which some might say are unfair given the working conditions provided by his bosses. The managemen of him was shocking, and tried to prevent him being too successful or too popular (maybe to prevent him becoming bigger than the presdidents council?). It was almost like they had hired him because they expected him not to be too successful, but when they found out he was at least competent, he had to go. For no other reason that he was tooo successful. Despite winning the sport’s ultimate accolade.
Because we had lucked out completely and coincidentally in hiring Jake, we figure that perhaps we should the hire yet another coach with no experience at the highest level, who is acknowledged by those hiring him not to be the best available. And wait for him to fail.
Looking at the above selectons, two things stand out. The successful ones were cut down and undermined before they got too big. there is no way teh unsuccessful ones could have been chosen with the expectation that they would succeed. There was simply no reason to expect it!
They were chosen:
a) because they were not going to be too big
b) against all available evidence that they would be successful
c) without regards for performance indicators
d) without regard for experience at the highest levels
e) against all advice to the contrary, and
f) throughout the tenure of each of these coaches, at no stage was past experience passed on from previous coaches (until Jake for a fleeting second)
Some may blame it on the lack of coaching resources, and some may blame it on the lack of resources to coach coaches here.
When looked at like this, you can only assume one of two things:
1) the coach selection was intended to fail by design, or
2) the handling and selection of coaches is GROSSLY incompetent
In fact so grossly incompetent that my thinking is that it could only be the first option. Perhaps there really is a “third force” trying to keep SA rugby down?
5 Jul 2009, 21:54 pm
#227 carol: they did enough to save the concept and they played to the maximum of their ability. They weren’t good enough but they did their best and you can’t ask much more.
5 Jul 2009, 21:54 pm
#217 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo: He does have a VERY nice office !!!
5 Jul 2009, 21:56 pm
#230 Bul-a-Bhloo: Right of course I was thinking Uganda, not Ghana, heard Uganda is now on the up, don’t know much about Ghana or Uganda, just what one hears from others.
5 Jul 2009, 21:58 pm
#232 Big Hit:
lions were the technically superior team, just lacked quality finishers like habana and jpp.#225 skopskiet:
skoppie, ghana is west africa (previously gold coast).
big producer of gold and cocoa and now oil found off the coast.
their bad man was jj rawlings (half ghanaian, half scot crickey what a mixture)
5 Jul 2009, 21:59 pm
#226 Bul-a-Bhloo: that’s just my opinion moron or do you actually believe saru consults mark keohane in firing and appointing national coaches?
5 Jul 2009, 21:59 pm
#233 carol: I believe your superior looks (of which I have only heard
) and afrikaans, well I only know 3 words, so you just squeaked into the job..
but always willing to help a damsel in distress, so let me know when you need to call Percy back into the fold
5 Jul 2009, 22:00 pm
#237 skopskiet: Me neither.
5 Jul 2009, 22:01 pm
#238 charo: they were soft up front for two tests, it’s too hard to win if you don’t meet the physical challenge in the forwards. In the end the Bok pack won the series for them.
5 Jul 2009, 22:02 pm
#238 charo:
Yeah I caught the mistake from bul-a-bhloo, got Ghana mixed up with Uganda for a moment. Ghana in West Africa next door to N!geria, so you off shore there, shipping business, or you trading from an office in Accra?
5 Jul 2009, 22:05 pm
#236 carol: good for him.it’s probably squeaky clean.
5 Jul 2009, 22:07 pm
#239 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo: I believe public opinion is very very powerful indeed.
I believe the media play a significant role in forming this.
They certainly got rid of Roelof S and saved JW when he was called back from the EOYT.
Supersport presenters often refer to “the blogs”.
I also believe a couple of Keo articles have got it spot on today. Snor is in trouble. He needs help, but in the interests of the country not to be fired. 3N will reveal all.
5 Jul 2009, 22:08 pm
#242 Big Hit:
We started like a bat out of hell first 20 min of first test, don’t know how we got our foot off the pedal there, but that should have been the pattern right through, something went amiss with the subs in second half, and the coaches (plural) got it wrong re Brussow from the beginning thinking Schalk was the answer.
If we kept the setup we started with in Durban throughout, we should have finished it off in style, too many hiccups along the way, but a squeaky win in the end, thanks to some hair raising play by individuals in the 2nd test, Brussow, Fourie and M.Steyn.
3rd test your team were head and shoulders superior, we lucky we came in on a narrow 2-0 lead.
5 Jul 2009, 22:09 pm
#245 Bul-a-Bhloo: how is he in trouble?
5 Jul 2009, 22:09 pm
good night all… time for me to finish work, enjoy….
5 Jul 2009, 22:10 pm
#240 poppa69: Talking of Percy, at Loftus he came and stood near(ish) to where I was sitting and I lost all concentration!!
Can’t believe I travelled 6,000 miles and still did not ruddy well meet him!!
5 Jul 2009, 22:12 pm
#248 poppa69: See you…
I’m out too, Night All !!
5 Jul 2009, 22:12 pm
#245 Bul-a-Bhloo: now we are getting somewhere instead of firing away with insults.what help does he needs?
5 Jul 2009, 22:14 pm
#247 Big Hit: Big Hit I’ve been blogging all day as have you. If you haven’t already done so go read my posts, I’m not going to repeat them so close to bed time..
5 Jul 2009, 22:15 pm
#242 Big Hit:
not so sure about that.
bryce lawrence pinged vicary a lot in the first test which put lions on the back foot with all the penalties conceded.
but overall, thought the lions loosies won more turnover than the boks and shaw brought in some hardness for the 2nd and 3rd tests.
the lions line out also improved after the 1st test.
this is why i thought that the lions were technically more astute than the boks – we tend to rely more on physical size and speed – lions more on guile and harassment.
5 Jul 2009, 22:17 pm
#246 skopskiet: the Lions gameplan was centred around Roberts, once he was closed down the Lions had very few other ideas. That’s why PDV said 60% of his gameplan was centred on Burger, he was the man to take Roberts out and he did it well in the end despite his indiscipline.
For me the Bok forwards were superior throughout, the big carriers were bowling the lightweight Lions forwards aside and the Lions were shunted back in the scrum. That’s where I feel the Lions management went wrong, you don’t go into a test v the Boks with a mobile pack and they did and paid the price.
5 Jul 2009, 22:18 pm
#251 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo: He needs a DOR, new assistant coaches and a solid PR-team with a PC-mandate to guide him. In other words he needs to listen to them.
I believe he has the vision and technical skills (proved that at lower levels), he just doesn’t know how to implement them at this level.
5 Jul 2009, 22:19 pm
Most of your guys comments are so infuriating to read. Its always the same hey? You don’t read the article properly and just go straight ahead to criticizing the journalist no matter who he his. RUGBYSTUDENT every time there is a negative article about PdV you say the exact same comment about the win in NZ and the EOYT victory. Can’t you see that the quality and precision of our Rugby is disappearing?
Yes Gavin Rich seems to be one of the journalists that likes PdV the least, or should i say PdV’s ability to coach a world class team…but that doesn’t mean he has something “personal” against him. He is just pointing out the obvious that only the naive rugby supporter cant see…and he is by the way closer to whats going on in the Springbok camp than any one of us on this site.
Its like listening to some thick headed boys arguing on the playground.
Why don’t we just come out with some facts: 1) PdV inherited a settled world cup winning team with a massive amount of experience and momentum and ranked no1 in the world 2)As soon as he took over the role of coaching the Boks our performance went downhill while playing to “his” gameplan and we went to being ranked no2 3) We won in Dunedin because Januarie had a moment of brilliance not because of PdV’s of gameplan, and we played off a platform of JW’s game plan to be able to get to the point of Januaire doing that BUT we then went on to finish LAST in the tri-nations so who the hell cares about that victory (i for one would have rather lost in Dunedin and won the tri-nations) 4) on the EOYT we managed to just narrowly beat Wales because of an intercept try by De Villiers, beat Scotland because of a last ditch effort by Jaque Fourie (being subbed onto wing!!!) and then beat England who were probably playing the WORST rubgy that they’ve played for many many years.
You cant argue with these facts…by saying that a win is a win Springbok rugby will just continue to go on a downward spiral. And who cares if we just beat the Lions 2-1, we were supposed to beat them anyway!! We are the Springboks and the world-champions with probably the most settled team in the history of the Boks. WE should have thrashed the Lions in every game and won 3-0.
Look if we do manage to win the tri-nations that ill eat my words. But what if we don’t? What are you guys gonna say then? Will you admit for once…or just talk about our win in NZ last year and the EOYT? And yeah its not just PdV fault, but if he gets sacked so does Gold and Muir…after all PdV chose them so he has to take responsibility.
5 Jul 2009, 22:20 pm
Bye.
5 Jul 2009, 22:20 pm
skoppie,
i wrote a long post to you explaining reason for going expat again and life in ghana but made the mortal mistake of spelling n*ger*a in full so it’s under moderation.
can’t be bothered to type it out all again – sorry.
ps – hope you had a jol with carol, wrs, grant etc in clifton.
5 Jul 2009, 22:20 pm
No more in trouble than a palooka who gets drilled by 49 to nil, if anything its a huge improvement to win a Lions tour, and have an undefeated EOYT and an away win in NZ
still no great shakes as standards go, but this infatuated belief that this team is so impeccably indestructible is actually the biggest cross to bear, they are very far from being the best team in the world in spite of what they think,
we have dire serious considerations to address at prop, lock, fly half 8th man and throughout, no way nearly is this a settled team at their prime, even if these scribes and 1 eyed supporters cannot get that stupid cake walk WC out their thick headed minds.
5 Jul 2009, 22:22 pm
#256 Gilbert: Good points.
One correction though, plenty of guys on here closer to the change room and in some cases in the change room……….
5 Jul 2009, 22:23 pm
#252 Bul-a-Bhloo: I left for couple of hours, I’ll have a look.
#253 charo: yep Shaw should’ve started, along with Sheridan. Heaslip was poor until the 3rd test and a more powerful 8 should’ve been deployed. Mears at hooker was a joke too, Bismarck ate him alive. In my opinion the Lions had to rely on guile because they deliberately opted out of selecting the bigger more physical players. If a 60m rolling maul goes against your team and you concede 9 points from scrums, then you know something isn’t right.
5 Jul 2009, 22:27 pm
#256 Gilbert: Don’t get all worked up, bud. This year’s Tri-Nations will confirm the downward spiral. Be patient.
5 Jul 2009, 22:29 pm
#256 Gilbert: also still infatuated by this WC bonanza where we faced not 1 team of ANY consequence, you too are emphatically in denial about the very fact that this so called indestructible winning team is hardly what its cut out to be, and any coach, Jake White ,would have shat off big time trying to win either the 3N or the Lions tour with this set of players, Schalk Burger a shadow of the player he was 3 years ago, JdV Jacobs carrying injuries, J.Smit to prop, Bakkies off on citings more often than not, its actually a wonder we win anything at all.
After all JW LOST 7 out of 10 3N encounters through 2006 and 2007 with some record breaking losses with the same players and with some proper props like Os and CJ, thats a 30% success rate against opposition that actually COUNTS, you are more 1 eyed than Gavin Rich and Mark Keohane put together, some your agendas suck bigger than the 49-0 loss the big **** coach coughed up on a platter.
5 Jul 2009, 22:30 pm
#258 charo: see you round charo, hope all is going good for you up there and at home. so long.
5 Jul 2009, 22:31 pm
#263 skopskiet: lol skoppie what about poor Jake? according to keo he reads your posts
5 Jul 2009, 22:32 pm
#262 kwas:
Just like the downward spiral we witnessed through 2006 and 2007 no different whatsoever, care to go through all those great WINS again?
5 Jul 2009, 22:33 pm
when it comes to saru i don’t believe public opinion got previous coaches fired.in my opinion,cold and hard facts got coaches fired.in jake’s case i believe saru felt that he was getting too big for his shoes and believed that he was bigger than the game itself and the others was fired because of performances(jake’s contract was not renewed).if the media can sway saru decision-making as you believe in bul-a bhloo why don’t they start a rolling mass action getting gert smal back into south african rugby and in this instance i have to say i blame saru for allowing one of our better coaches leaving our shores for ireland.
5 Jul 2009, 22:34 pm
#260 skopskiet:
skoppie,
couldn’t agree more.
this bok squad is not a worldbeater by a long stretch.
they scraped home against the lions (mainly because we have phenomenal wingers) and will struggle in the 3n.
our players are taught brawn and macho from schooldays and subtle skills are few and far between (adi jacobs, butch, ebherson (sic) twins, pienaar, kanko are some exceptions).
5 Jul 2009, 22:34 pm
#260 Bul-a-Bhloo:
I wouldn’t have guessed that. But in that case ill start respecting “some” of the opinions on this site a lot more…
5 Jul 2009, 22:35 pm
#265 Big Hit: You serious, I’m that notorious? Good for him read away, at least somebody can set the record a little straighter here than the going consensus.
5 Jul 2009, 22:37 pm
Give the man a chance for goodness sake.
I mean he has just won a Lions series, would you prefer if we lost like in 97, but still score more points? You will remember in 95 we also had just won the RWC.
If this is what this coach gets for winning a test series, i shudder to see whats in store for him if god forbid he has a year like JW in 2006.
5 Jul 2009, 22:40 pm
#269 Gilbert: judge him on the 3N, he’s going in with a strong squad and should be able to get some results against these NZ and Aus sides.
#270 skopskiet: lol yeah well that’s what keo said in that thread when he was out lunching with Jake that day.
5 Jul 2009, 22:43 pm
#268 charo:
Quite correct, still a long way to go before we can pat ourselves on the back thinking we anywhere remotely near to being classed best team in the world, if we look at position for position we are extremely thin at most, as Saturdays test painfully proved, from front row, through 2nd row, through wings and FB, almost the entire team, we are hardly ordained with riches in every position,
only place we have a little depth ( and only a little) is at loose forward, and even there we don’t always pick the best option, because we are riddled with the notion that a good big un far outstrips a good little un, ‘no fetcher required’ is our motto since 1995 or thereabouts.
5 Jul 2009, 22:46 pm
#272 Big Hit: didn’t see it ‘that day’ whenever that was, good, winning ways need a wake up as to know that not everybody has knives out for the little brown skinned coach with the funny accent, in spite of what they trying to achieve and undermine.
hooray the cavalry has arrived, just on cue.
5 Jul 2009, 22:47 pm
#211 Big Hit:
bang on target
5 Jul 2009, 22:49 pm
#263 skopskiet:
Oh and so you must one of those still infatuated with the Dunedin bonanza? What are you trying to say…PdV is a great coach or was JW a **** coach??
Im well aware of the losses that the Boks suffered under JW but he also managed to win the tri-nations first year in charge and then came VERY close in 2005 (a try by Houwlett lost it for us)…and then he won the World Cup…FROM STARTING WITH NOTHING!
Oh and don’t you think this sudden drop in form and discipline throughout our team has something to do with PdV?? JW turned those players that you mentioned into the heros that they are today…PdV just has no idea of how to manage these players.
And YES it is a wonder that we still win anything with PdV as our coach!
5 Jul 2009, 22:49 pm
#271 cab: a similarity to 2006 would result in a bloodbath for sure, this place would erupt in absolute toxic eruption, blood would actually come streaming through the very screen onto your keyboard if this coach were to have results like we did in 2006.
5 Jul 2009, 22:50 pm
#273 skopskiet: I wouldn’t be too harsh on your front row, that was a brutal front five they were up against especially with Bismarck and Botha absent. They don’t come much bigger than Sheridan, Rees/Ford, Vickery, O’Connell, Shaw.
The other thing is that depth is a real issue for every nation, I can’t think of one with true depth in every position, even NZ are struggling.
5 Jul 2009, 22:53 pm
#277 skopskiet:
lol, a bloodbath, and hanging in the streets, some of your imagery is very amusing.
5 Jul 2009, 22:54 pm
#271 cab: could not agree more.the world is becoming one mad place.on the one hand the brits rejoice in a losing team and on the other hand south africans wants to crucify or lynch a coach that just landed us the bil-sa series trophy one that we all cried about when we lost it in 1997.it’s a mad,mad world.
5 Jul 2009, 22:56 pm
#170 skopskiet: Got a feeling though that the Boks are going backwards
Coach?
Assistants?
Players?
Game plans?
Lack of depth?
5 Jul 2009, 22:57 pm
He lost the 3rd BIL test by the biggest margin in over a century of history.
5 Jul 2009, 22:59 pm
#276 Gilbert: aagh man I say its a pity Jake didn’t have the balls to stand for the post again, pity he wasn’t given the job, even his big mate from the Sport Science Institute said he would have gone down in a heap of ash, maybe might have suffered even physically or mentally or emotionally as a result of trying his luck one more year.
Can tell you categorically I doubt he would have won the 3N last year playing the same players we did through the WC, Butch and FdP way off the boil, so too our great loose trio when Elv’s were introduced we had a tough time adapting. And I doubt he would have achieved some the results PdV has, I seriously doubt it.
So I say it is a grave pity these glory boy coaches didn’t have the stomach for the real deal coaching job, the way he lost through ’06 and ’07 proved what his real caliber is about. Same as he managed to LOSE with a star studded team against the lowly Australians while coaching the best Barbarian team he could muster with every one of his 2007 hero’s on board.
Pity he didn’t put his head on the line and coach this great team through ’08 and ’09 because then all you deluded infatuations would be turned upside down.
5 Jul 2009, 22:59 pm
The Lions only got their pack selection sort of right in the 3rd test but should have played powell at 8 (even tho heaslip had his best game by far), the boks never really did, Brussouw should have played at 6, but Burger should have played at 8 (with spies coming on in last 20 when things had opened up), when Burger was on the park the big boy in midfield’s impact was cut down drastically. Bok pack selection was way too light for the 3rd one and backrow had no impetus or gravitas, but PdV was looking at 3N already, his always had half an eye on the 3N rightly or wrongly. Smit was very committed in this series and scrummed superbly throughout, even against sheridan, he carried well too from the front including the opening try of the series, and hit the rucks well too. Captaincy outstanding. Bok player of the Series John Smit closely followed by Brussow who was outstanding too.
5 Jul 2009, 23:01 pm
#282 TheTackler:
get serious tackler, you know the situation as well as anyone.
5 Jul 2009, 23:01 pm
#282 TheTackler: the Lions lost the 3rd test in 1997 by 20 points, it doesn’t really matter as the series was over.
5 Jul 2009, 23:03 pm
#282 TheTackler: look who joins us!it’s mr.nobody!
5 Jul 2009, 23:05 pm
#282 TheTackler: And a 19-0 snotting by the ABs at Newlands-first time in 100 years.
A loss against the Aussies in 7 years
5 Jul 2009, 23:06 pm
More jammer-gat SA journalism doing the hysterical British press’ dirty work for them. Using the last game when Peter rested some first choice players in what was a dead rubber for the tri-nations and then saying we were “getting progressively worse” just shows you how little credibility these idiots have got.
5 Jul 2009, 23:06 pm
1. Sheridan 2. Rees 3. Murray 4. Shaw 5. O’Connel 6. Ferris 7. Wallace 8. Powell
v
1. Beast 2. Bismarck 3. Smit 4. Bakkies 5. Matfield 6. Brussow 7. Juan 8. Burger
Now that would have been very interesting.
5 Jul 2009, 23:09 pm
#287 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo: seriously dont know why anyone responds to morons like tackler and skopgat , or infact wankanathan
i mean he laughs at eye gouging being compared to knees in the back??
with the weight of the moron that did the deed and the force , one could easily have sat with a broken back or spine ? paralysis thus not out of the question , so a moron like that thinks it not an issue??
thus my comment on why even speak back to morons like this
Oh i know ill now get sworn at and blah blah blah , water down a ducks back , and morons they will stay
5 Jul 2009, 23:10 pm
#290 cab: not a bad call at all cab
5 Jul 2009, 23:10 pm
#283 skopskiet:
Ok i don’t feel like writing a long post again…so ill keep it short.
Firstly, Im talking about what PdV is currently doing to our Rugby…i feel there are more negatives than positives.
Nobody knows who Jake White would have chosen for last years tri-nations….he probably doesn’t even know.
Butch was playing some seriously good rugby in the English premiership until he got injured.
And you can’t judge a coach by his performance with a Barbarians team…they are always star studded teams and usually get thrashed…that doesn’t mean the coach sucks.
I kinda get what you saying though…but ill wait till the tri-nations and then we can have this conversation again.
5 Jul 2009, 23:11 pm
A top coach takes the game of rugby to spaces it has never been to before. They go outside the square and devise new moves. Coach Markotter told Craven to dive-pass; some inventive coach — Carwyn James, possibly — used his hooker rather than the usual two wingers to throw the ball into the lineout. Jake White devised the “rush defence” to block the spread of the ball to the deadly AB back three. Buurman van Zyl perfected ten-man rugby with Naas as the last man to handle the set-piece ball.
PDV? No plan. Lots of stupid rubbish, babbling about Moses and tutus and black mechanics and whatnot. That’s all, folks! Dress him in a blue satin suit with a white boater, put a banjo in his hands and send him out down Wale Street on Tweede Nuwejaar. That’s his proper habitat.
5 Jul 2009, 23:13 pm
#281 JL1:
Every team goes through swells and troughs JL, the real trick is to recognize the wane or ebb in time and adapt quickly.
Look at England after ’03, took them less than 12 months withy the core of their winning team on the wane they were nowhere by 2004-05
Look at our 95 team through 96 and 97 before the turn around at the end of the 3N when we took Aussie apart and then went onto our 17 match streak.
So what these coaches have to realize right now is that the team of 2007 is no more, new fresh blood musty get introduced, I put up a core squad on the other thread somewhere of who I would play and how I would go forward, and I would not persist with JS at TH for much longer, prper TH and LH props must get groomed as well as some serious stand ins for 2nd row not Muller or Roussouw, more in the line of Sykes, Bekker, Steenkamp, Fondse.
So what they must realize is that rugby like everything needs some revolutionary thinking from time to time to keep the team right on the threshold of the wave otherwise the trough is going to egulf it, you cannot surf on the crest all the time, you have to adapt between the swell, the trough, and the next wave of players and strategies coming through.
5 Jul 2009, 23:13 pm
#290 cab: i still would have like a front 5 of bj smitty beast bakkies matfield
bench cj and bismark
5 Jul 2009, 23:14 pm
#293 Gilbert: If i may ask ?? you Morris Gilbert maybe?? lol
5 Jul 2009, 23:14 pm
#294 TheTackler:
the first part of that is spot on, the second half is obviously very racist but we’ll put it down to you aiming for controversy.
5 Jul 2009, 23:14 pm
#292 sharks_lover:
you were in n1ger1a at one stage weren’t you?
spent 2.5 yrs in apapa a few years ago – what a place!!!!
now back in wa – ghana – much quieter and peaceful
5 Jul 2009, 23:16 pm
#288 JL1:
Yes. That was when Peter – under immense pressure and popular demand of the very same twat journos who criticizes his team selection dropped Ricky Januarie and Big Joe for out of from FdP and Spies. There is just no way Peter can ever win in this situation is there. When he sticks to known combos like Pienaar, JdV and wins then he gets blasted. When he chooses the favor of the month like Steyn, Olivier and loses badly he gets blasted. When he stand up for his players he gets blasted. When he criticizes his players he gets blasted. The poor oke can just do nothing right in the eyes of some. But who do they want to replace Peter with : will they be happy when Peter gets fired and Butana Komphela is appointed coach to the Boks ?
5 Jul 2009, 23:18 pm
#296 sharks_lover:
yes, but he could not pick bakkies since he was banned. Bakkies is the kingpin, if he dont play, the boks are much weaker. He’s like a mccaw or carter to the ABs.
On bismarck, he’s brilliant, but also very foolhardy and a firebrand, nearly got into **** on sat and i think the coach was wise to try and keep him for the 3N, but u may have a point.
All i know is they need to concentrate on developing a backup for Bakkies quick, the best imo is Sykes, but still a year or two of being a meneer as it were.
5 Jul 2009, 23:18 pm
#299 charo: hiyas charo yes i was
now how you know me so well??/ lol and now im off to uganda
5 Jul 2009, 23:20 pm
#299 charo: if you use a messenger service lemme know mate , wanna add you so we can chat when im back up north
Uganda is awesome as i have heard Ghana is
5 Jul 2009, 23:22 pm
#301 cab: This is true
I must say Sykes has improved immensly
I went to the sharks game on Friday evening and **** cockott and deysel were huge
Quite a few times deysel had 4 – 5 guys on his back dragging them along
5 Jul 2009, 23:23 pm
Lets not forget we lost that game when Wynand Olivier threw that intercept pass. But just about everybody including these twat journos wanted Steyn and Olivier to start in the first test. Where are they now – finding new excuses because the very same players they have been backing so vehemently has now flopped because of PdV’s “poor selections” ?
5 Jul 2009, 23:25 pm
#304 sharks_lover:
reckon Deysel was outstanding in both matches he played against the BIL. kockett is good too, but he kicks too much, the one i like is the oke who played for the kings, hougaardt?, **** that oke can only send a ball out.
5 Jul 2009, 23:25 pm
#305 klingon_x: eish eish eish boet how the sharks are going to miss F Steyn
5 Jul 2009, 23:25 pm
#300 klingon_x: These twats have agendas, huge ones, and they are on the snake fest looking for snake eggs to hatch
best thing that PdV can do is shut his eyes and his ears to every single twit twat fundi journo and clever **** analyst and do what he knows from within his gut, he may stand a chance then, that 19-0 fiasco was not entirely of his making, he will have to learn to take charge of the situation and sometimes go against popular consensus, even amongst his chosen core of assistants and senior player, and do what he thinks is right.
5 Jul 2009, 23:27 pm
#306 cab: i tell you another good scrummy is also at the sharks , MCleod
then there was a scrummy that played in the first game against the lions
**** he was brilliant
5 Jul 2009, 23:27 pm
#305 klingon_x:
Olivier actually played well, problem is boks were beaten upfront, everything they recieved was going backward, and the intercepts came with the boks having to try to stretch the BIL defence and force a try to catch-up.
The Boks need to get their phase possesion sorted so that their centres can crash onto with go-forward, they were getting caught static.
5 Jul 2009, 23:27 pm
#307 sharks_lover:
Steyn should have started at 12 yesterday. WO is a fine solid player but he is simply not good enough for the Bok jersey. 21 caps and zero tries sort of tells it all.
5 Jul 2009, 23:29 pm
#298 cab: Those minstrels “racist”?
Never!
(I wouldn’t suggest handing PDV an oboe, dressing him in a tux and putting him in a symphony orchestra, mind you. Wrong setting. Almost as wrong as wearing a tracksuit and coaching the Springboks.)
5 Jul 2009, 23:30 pm
#311 klingon_x: this is the backline i would have started with
dup
ruan
habs
F steyn
Jf
jpp
kirchner
reserves , m steyn , adi/jdv
if jdv isnt injured i move f steyn back to full back and make centers jdv and Jf
5 Jul 2009, 23:30 pm
#305 klingon_x: yip absolutely, before the test this was the best back line we could put together, FdP, Steyn, WO, Fourie and Kirchner were all the real deals that he left out the first 2 tests, so he obliged their thinking and played them, and WO was hugely instrumental in losing it with that stupid pass straight to Monye.
So you are correct the guy is stuffed if he does and stuffed if he doesn’t, once they got an agenda aimed at your head, best you can do is shut them right out and do only what you know from deep in your gut.
I hope he has the instinct to do just that and prove them all emphatically wrong.. again.
5 Jul 2009, 23:32 pm
#312 TheTackler:
shocker
#311 klingon_x:
thats a harsh call imo, guy had no ball to work with, was by far the outstanding and form 12 of the S14, he’s not there to score tries but to get over adv line and setup his outside backs. Some huge committed tackles yesterday. Steyn is an outstanding 12 too. I’d pick them both over JdV, who is also very good, but need impact like Roberts with good defense, so prefer WO or Steyn at 12.
night all
5 Jul 2009, 23:32 pm
ok im off take care all…
5 Jul 2009, 23:32 pm
#310 cab:
Not according to the footage I saw. That specific move they were going forward off second phase ball. The way that M. Steyn and WO tried to send the ball wide into the rush defence was the problem. Wynand was crabbing side ways and threw a speculative pass – should have chipped or straightened the line. He made one or two good breaks, defended well but more often than not got isolated and died with the ball.
5 Jul 2009, 23:33 pm
#305 klingon_x: i see that somebody on this site today mentioned that wynand and fourie played badly because the played behind a losing pack.poor pack getting blamed for the intercept!
5 Jul 2009, 23:36 pm
#317 klingon_x:
that was when they got decent ball and were attacking trying to get back in, the pass had to go to try get it wide where there was an overlap, it was the right option imo, but perhaps forced a bit due to the nature of teh contest and being 15 point behind.
I dont think PdV can be blamed for the selections, since he was looking to the 3N and wanted to give them a run, doubt they’ll be there for the 3N, will be JdV and JAcobs.
5 Jul 2009, 23:37 pm
#315 cab: agree cab, F.Steyn should be first choice 12. I think he’s lost to the Springbok team now for 3 years however, I’m not sure he’ll be picked while playing in France.
5 Jul 2009, 23:45 pm
#305 klingon_x: WO had a good game considering the pressure that the back line were under due to the fowards loosing the battle up front.
5 Jul 2009, 23:46 pm
#318 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo:
I thought M. Steyn send too much ball wide. The way we played the second test we used our wings around FdP’s channel to neutralise the rush defense. It worked brilliantly too – but I guess PdV would never get the credit for that bit of tactical acumen either. Must have come from his RWC winning players, or **** Muir or the Keo-ed website. In reality I think the last game was a dead rubber and PvD selected his fringe players and said go and play an open game. So we lost a dead rubber – but why these journo’s want to make so much of that instead of celebrating the series win totally boggles the mind.
5 Jul 2009, 23:48 pm
#315 cab: FS better at 15, Zane was poor to say the least
5 Jul 2009, 23:50 pm
#322 klingon_x: I thought that appraoch in the second test was picked up from that approached adopted successfully in the e.boks game
5 Jul 2009, 23:53 pm
#321 byoboy:
In fact when you look at the stats we shared possession equally in the last test. We kicked more and played a much tighter controlled game in the first two test however. We won the series and opened it up in the last game. I have absolutely no problem with that.
5 Jul 2009, 23:55 pm
#318 pdvwysmiddelvingervirkeo: well if the pack is doing poorly especially in phase play, then your centres receive the ball under pressure and get caught static, which was the case on sat.
5 Jul 2009, 23:55 pm
#322 klingon_x: Lost a dead rubber test by the whopping biggest margin in 118 years of history, though.
5 Jul 2009, 23:56 pm
#324 byoboy:
So you are saying that PdV shouldn’t get the credit for working that move into his game plan for the second test ?
5 Jul 2009, 23:58 pm
#325 klingon_x: I have no prob with the management bringing in players to test the depth since the series was in the bag. At times I thought we were losing too much possession by kicking way to far and not being able to follow up in time allwing for a strong counter attack. I just though we couldn’t really open up on the play due to the pressure up front.
5 Jul 2009, 23:59 pm
#327 TheTackler:
We smashed them 35-16 in 1997. It meant bugger all to me. Saved a bit of face whatever, but it is difficult to get a winning team up and motivated to play with the same intensity for such game.
6 Jul 2009, 00:00 am
#328 klingon_x: did i say that?
6 Jul 2009, 00:07 am
Ag come now Cab and skoppie, you two are seriously pursuing your own agenda if you are suggesting 2006 was not a ‘bloodbath’ on here. Go back and trawl through the archives and see the vitriol that was thrown Jake “the Snake’s” way.
To suggest that there is some other dynamic at play in the average Bok fans’ mind due to Snorrie’s skin colour is ludicrous given how we all witnessed the lengths that writers and bloggers on this site went to drag Jake White’s name through the dirt.
Fans and journalists are not stupid. They can tell when things are not going well. Jake White was big enough to get in outside help in the form of Eddie Jones in 2007, after a disastrous 2006, and this saved his neck and will result in him going down in the history books as a World Cup winning coach. I just hope Snorrie does something similar – it’s never too late to turn the ship around.
6 Jul 2009, 00:07 am
#331 byoboy:
I don’t know. I said the things he did well he never gets credit for. He is constantly criticized and slagged of by just about everybody. And that after we had just won the first Lions series in 30 years. I can understand if we lost this series like in 1997 people would be angry. But winning and not having a single good word for the coach – I just don’t get it.
6 Jul 2009, 00:10 am
Cant quite understand this defence of PdV.He is so clearly out of his depth it is there for all to see.He may have a good record this far but we are on a very slippery slope.He is antagonising the senior players and setting up the youngsters to fail.
Kirshner a prime example.Had a cr@p game but was never given a fair opportunity.How do you have a back three like that when you are trying to blood a young fullback in a test match.Ok Odwa is solid but would BH and JPP not had a much more calming influence?Instead we have a form player (S14) with bugger all confidence after that.
To be honest he was shown up at this level(for now),but many people could see that happening.Lets destroy all synergy before the 3N when we were not exactly ‘flying’ as it was.This is the logic of the man who has an ego far too big for professional rugby.
Then you have a guy like Brussouw who you could see was itching to get into the team and was ready.Fancy that, he played really well but were it not for injury he would not have got his chance.How is this last result a reflection of our back up when it was wholesale changes that ruined the synergy in a new look team?
Fringe players should be rated when they are exposed to test matches with competant and experienced players around them giving them a fair chance.If they come through they will begin to express themselves as they grow in confidence and the coach’s job is to try and identify and rectify weak areas and keeping them on track.It’s beyond me that almost anyone who has played any team sport knows that balance in a side is paramount and here we have a coach who has no idea how to use his bench and makes changes en masse.
Not only does he render his ‘impact players’ obsolete but puts pressure on his team which is fast destroying his credibility both with the public and within the team.
6 Jul 2009, 00:11 am
At least this series has shown us that F Steyn is our best bet at fullback, and that Ruan Pienaar is still our best bet at 10. Yes, M Steyn can kick well for posts under pressure but no other flyhalf play in the entire series came close to how Pienaar controlled the game in the first half of the first test. Pienaar just needs to find some consistency.
6 Jul 2009, 00:11 am
#332 wooden spoon:
Yep. That is after we got man-shamed 49-0 by Aus. This time we did them good but no – the coach is k@k and deserves to get all this shite heaped on him.
6 Jul 2009, 00:12 am
Just now glanced through the comments. So many reasons for the very poor performance, but what I missed is a mention of the worst centre play ever from Matfield. Hy moenie daar staan nie. Hy mors die paar goeie balle wat ons gekry het helemaal op.
6 Jul 2009, 00:16 am
#336 klingon_x: 19-0 at HOME (the first Bok NIL at home EVER) is just as bad buddy.
Both results are inexcusable. At least Jake got his sh*t together and brought home the prize steak (he had previously brought home the bacon – the 2004 Tri-Nations – so we knew he had the goods).
Let’s wait and see how the Boks go in this year’s Tri-Nations before we break into a sweat on here, and then we can all properly assess Snorrie’s performance.
6 Jul 2009, 00:16 am
#335 wooden spoon:
Pienaar was ****. he kicked well and that was it. I wanted to see JdV and Adi get the ball sometimes but they never did. Instead they got blamed for all and everything yet our 10 hardly ever created opportunities for them. M. Steyn was the exact opposite – send the ball wide to often and kicked too little. He didn’t handle the rush defense well either.
6 Jul 2009, 00:18 am
#335 wooden spoon:
Agree with you about FS.He really looked powerful when he got a bit of gees going.I still think MS is an excellent backup.He has BMT and did really well considering how new he is to test rugby.
6 Jul 2009, 00:20 am
Cheers all.
6 Jul 2009, 00:24 am
#338 wooden spoon:
This is not another Jake versus PdV **** fight is it ? PdV selected almost all the players Jake did. He entered into the arena when the laws were being chopped and changed and he had to modify the game plan because under the sanction ELVs mauls could be collapsed and there were less line-outs and more scrums. Nonetheless, irrespective of that, everybody including the keo twat pack went bannas about his “expansive game plan” etc. said it showed how arrogant he was to change a winning formula etc. Yet when the sanction laws got dropped he reverted back to a more structured game as we saw in the first two Lions tests.
6 Jul 2009, 00:34 am
#342 klingon_x: I think if you read back over my posts you will see where I say it is silly to compare coaches.
We should be looking for our coaches to better their predecessors in any event. Trying to justify a current coach as being at least equal to a previous coach smacks of mediocrity anyway. No, the focus should be entirely upon the current incumbent.
We all know you are a big Snorrie fan.
But let’s wait and see what happens once the dust has settled after the final match day of this year’s Tri-Nations. Snorries deserves his chance at it.
6 Jul 2009, 00:35 am
Now I am really out of here. Cheers.
6 Jul 2009, 01:28 am
If the Boks win the Tri-Nations will PdV finally be accepted as the coach for the World Cup?
I doubt it.
6 Jul 2009, 01:32 am
How about this:
Beast – loosehead, John Smit – Hooker, Heinke Van der Merwe – Tighthead.
Now we have a heavy and rock solid front row. I don’t like seeing the Bok front row so heavily dependant on it’s second row. The BIL put us under pressure in the scrums on Sat. and this ruined any chances of us seeing the best of Jaque Fourie,Wynand Olivier and Kanko.
Although the BIL were deseved winners I thought they played dirty. Paul O’Connell was always comming around the side of the rucks, lying on the ground and playing the ball. Not withstanding it just was not our day. Every time we started getting on top we would make an unforced error or be penalised. I still thought that the newbies played pretty well in a team that lacked cohesion and that was constantly under a barage of foul play.
6 Jul 2009, 01:44 am
#338 wooden spoon: Not true. The 1896 British Lions beat SA by 8-0 in Port Elizabeth.
6 Jul 2009, 01:49 am
#346 OB1: Heinke van der merwe is a Loosehead prop…..to play him at tighthead would be a bad idea
6 Jul 2009, 01:52 am
#21 King Shark: I never want to see Kirchner in a Bok jersey ever again! Some people go on about how poor Rose is…eish was Kirchner trying to do his best Rose impression?! He absolutely butchered a try which might have changed the tide of the game! He was useless for the E Boks and useless for the Boks. He does not have BMT! Frans Steyn on the other hand showed was huge but it with 20 mins to go and 3 tries down it was all too little too late!
Players who should never play for the Boks again – Kirchner and Nokwe.
6 Jul 2009, 01:59 am
#349 Crouching Tiger Hidden Bokke:
Fascinating. Which try did he “butcher” ? You probably don’t have a problem with WO – a Bok with 21 caps throwing that intercept pass ?
6 Jul 2009, 01:59 am
#304 sharks_lover: Sykes and Deysel should’ve played yesterday in my opinion. Would’ve added more oomph to the pack with Sykes there. Still I rate Smith hugely maybe he should have been played off the bench. Would’ve also had Vermuelen there as well.
6 Jul 2009, 02:29 am
I have to agree here with Gavin. Having sat back and given PDV the benefit of the doubt for this series I am deeply concerned going into the Tri Nations. We have PDv up against Deans and Henry. Need we say more. I do support PDV for all his good intentions and the fact that he has been given one of the most difficult jobs in rugby with very little experience. The fact is he is just not up to it. It has been a long time since I saw a Bok team like that fold especially at Ellis Park. The reality here is that the Boks have been flirting with danger the whole series. In both test the Boks won by the skin of their teeth and you have to be bloody blind to think any other way. A win is a win but given what the Lions had to offer and their firepower we should have won very comfortably and most certiantly should
have whitewashed the Lions on thhe back of the quality of palyer and depth we have.PDv has been lucky this time – unfortunately his luck is about to run out in the Tri nations.
6 Jul 2009, 02:45 am
#310 cab: Olivier didnt play well he ran side ways all day leaving no space for fourie. his defence wasnt amazing either, and he threw an intercept
6 Jul 2009, 03:51 am
#352 kesbok:
Still trying to work out all this great depth he has inherited from Jake, please go ahead and name them, one position at a time from the front, what is this great internationally primed depth has PdV inherited from Jake, which players, please name them, all 22 or all 30 of them.
6 Jul 2009, 03:53 am
#322 klingon_x: i compare this game with the 2 tests Jake played before the RWC07, Jake went to NZ/AUS with his second stringers, broke up combinations to rest certain key players and in the process left the other players as sitting ducks.
Kirshner was sold out by playing him without proper wings, playing him with Habana and JPP would have been a total difference.
Same with JF and WO, no decent wings on their outside.
The Brits had a field day at the back, throwing the ball around with *** abandon, with Habana there we would have scored 2 intercepts at least and they would have stopped throwing it around.
Jake was forgiven after his poor showing in the year before the RWC, by winning the RWC.
JW played 19 lost 10 and had a winning % of 47.
SAF -vs- ALL (10/06/2006 to 14/07/2007)
I SAID IT BEFORE let the team be picked by a selection panel, yes 5 or 7 wise men, not one person. Give the SA coach a contract with stipulated outcomes, if he does not achieve it it is automatic dismissal. Like players are dropped if they dont please the coach, one of game can cost a player his place.
So be it with the coach review his coaching achievements after every stipulated period.
Now i know the popular opinion is , you cant fire a coach if he cant pick his own players. Bullsh@t , if HE CANT COACH THE 26 BEST PLAYERS in SA , he wont be able to coach or pick his own best team.
6 Jul 2009, 04:14 am
Well it is very simple, an opportunity lost in creating history…well, there was history created but of the negative kind as Tackles keep on telling us. For the record Tackles, equal worst to the exact same score in 1974, thought you would know that!
And talking about records, as the P Divvie apologists like to throw out numbers at will, he is one loss away from losing his ‘better win ration’ compared to JW.
Now I know and agree that you can’t compare coaches but seeing that pro Divvie people like to compare I thought I will do the same…
Year 1 for JW 13 games, 9 wins and 4 losses. These included 2 wins and 2 losses against the ABs and Ozmob.
P Divvie, year 1, 13 games, 9 wins and 4 losses. These included 2 wins and 4 losses against Oz and NZ.
JW ended up with a winning ratio of 66.7%, if P Divvie loses the first test against NZ he will drop to 64.7%, if he only win one of the two against NZ he will be on…66.7%
Anyway, just a few numbers to chew on. This does not come close to explaining the poor selection policy, the lack of any insight into the supersub fiasco in the first test, poor selection in the second and losing the 3rd test. Oh but he admitted to his mistakes and learned from it…no he did not, he admitted that sending on so many subs in such a short time disrupted the team dynamics in the first test. Not the issue, he made the WRONG subs fullstop. Same in the seecond test and if not for a ‘lucky’ injury to Danie after only a few minutes, we may well have looked at a 2-1 series loss.
Can anyone explain all this to me?
6 Jul 2009, 04:27 am
#354 Spokskiet
Tewll me first where I mentioned Jake White? Can’t quite understand the request!!
This isn’t about JW – its all about PDV
Read my post. By the way we have great depth – the emerging Boksd showed that -
6 Jul 2009, 04:43 am
#357 kesbok: In skopskiets mind, anybody that says anythng negative about P Divvie must be pro JW and that is like a red flag for the poor guy, let him be!
He can’t understand that you can query P Divvie for what he has done without, by implication, being a JW fan and wanting HM there instead. Apparantly saying or asking anything negative about him also makes you narrow minded, inherently a racist and pig headed…I know I missed a few but there you go.
6 Jul 2009, 05:28 am
Keep PdeV as coach.
There are few better ‘black’ coaches than him (except Paul Treu, maybe).
A white coach (no matter how good) will just wake up the Dept of Sport (as charo said), and then we have Stofile, Frolick and Komphela in the mix again.
At least with PdeV, those ******** in parliament are not messing around with our rugby.
Keep PdeV, I say.
6 Jul 2009, 05:32 am
#356 Koos:
Can’t compare PdeV with JW.
The political situation is completely different with PdeV at the helm.
JW didn’t have the luxury of ‘silent politicians’.
Faaaark, Stofile even tried to select Bobo ‘Skinstead’ at some stage, and YeYe called Meisiekind ‘Wynand Claasen’!
6 Jul 2009, 05:44 am
#359 Pietman: But at what cost? Don’t give in to quickly!
#360 Pietman: Ag Pete, we all know that but you can’t quantify it,
6 Jul 2009, 05:54 am
PIETMAN – that’s the problem here. Too many people with blind faith. If we are going to get the best out of the Bok players (white and non-white) they need a new coach. Why waste all that talent (white and non-white) because of one coach. If things don’t improve senior palyers will walk. Most of them have won the S14, tri nations, world cup and have a series win agaisnt the Lions. What more do they have to prove?
6 Jul 2009, 06:01 am
#352 kesbok:
here in NZ the kiwi’s I work with are making Aus favorites for 3 nations. Seeing as the ABs are woeful without richie and danny boy, and the boks appear to lack a coach
6 Jul 2009, 06:04 am
#357 kesbok: #358 Koos:
He is unstable.
Does not even pay his workers a wage,gives them food.
Sits in his bakkie and blogs from his cellphone whilst his labourers does the work.
It is tough times in construction,I reckon he will go under and be helpless beause he abused people all these years and cant do the work himself.
6 Jul 2009, 06:09 am
#363 munkiboi: Next week will answer that question! Expect the ABs to pick up their socks and be competitive…not sure where that leaves us!
#364 Fern: Howzit Fern, for one that puport not to drink he does sound a bit off sometimes…
6 Jul 2009, 06:11 am
#357 kesbok: That is exactly the chink in Skoppie’s armor – his obsession at dissing Jake – he just can’t get over Jake winning the RWC and Tri-Nations. Whenever you dare to critize his beloved Snor, Skoppie will throw Jake’s record in your face (the 49-0 being his favorite). As if it somehow justifies/covers up Snor’s shocking incompetence.
6 Jul 2009, 06:12 am
#365 Koos:
Koos I reckon he is a alkie,if he isnt then the kak he posts whilst being sober is scary.
6 Jul 2009, 06:14 am
#366 kwas:
JW won us a RWC so all is forgiven.
6 Jul 2009, 06:15 am
#364 Fern: How do you know this non-descript so well?
6 Jul 2009, 06:17 am
#369 kwas:
He told us once he gives his workers food,when asked what their daily wage was he did not answer and got defensive.
He is a bakkiebouer.
6 Jul 2009, 06:18 am
Dissipline, gebrekkige samespel Springbokke se doodsteek
Jul 05 2009 09:41:40:027PM – (SA)
Druk artikel
E-pos storie aan ‘n vriend
1. In al die toetse was daar baie ooreenkomste en in elkeen was die Bokke by tye onder kwaai druk. In die eerste en tweede toetse het die ouens die druk verwerk, maar hulle kon dit dié keer nie regkry nie. Die ouens se dissipline het hulle in die steek begin laat en hulle het by voorvalle weg van die bal af betrokke begin raak. Dit het hulle fokus laat verloor.
2. Moet nie vergeet dat die Leeus ook baie veranderings gemaak het nie. Die verskil was dat hulle as ’n span saamgespeel het en ons nie. Die Leeus het as ’n span baie meer gehad om te bewys, ons het individue gehad wat baie goed gedoen het, maar as span het die Springbokke minder gehad om te wys.
3. Ons rolmaal-bewegings is gestuit. In die eerste toets het ons ’n lynstaan afgedwing en gaan druk ná die rolmaal, en in die tweede toets het Jaque Fourie gaan druk nadat ons ook daardie keuse uitgeoefen het. Ons het Saterdag vroeg kans gekry om van ’n dryfbeweging te gaan druk, maar Shaw-hulle het ons goed gekeer. Toe Shaw net voor rustyd af was, het ons weer probeer dryf en al het ons ’n man meer gehad, kon ons nie gaan druk nie. Later in die wedstryd het ons toe pale toe geskop, want ons het vertroue in die dryfbeweging verloor. Dit was ’n sielkundige slag teen die Bokke.
4. Die Leeus het net voor rustyd punte afgestaan op Loftus en dit was ’n keerpunt. Saterdag, toe Shaw afgaan en ons kry daardie strafdoel, het ek gedink dit was weer die draaipunt. Maar ons het net drie punte aangeteken met ’n man meer en nie daardie kans gebruik nie. Dit was die verskil vergeleke met die vorige toetse.
5. Fourie du Preez se besering het ons gekos. Ruan Pienaar het goed gedoen, maar het lank laas skrumskakel gespeel. Fourie se waarde lê in sy taktiese oordeel en die bewegings wat hy roep. Hy was die katalisator in elkeen van die vorige toetse.
5. Met Shaw en Rees af, het die Leeus begin sukkel in die lynstane. Toe Bismarck opkom, het dit beter met ons in die skrums gegaan, maar ons kon dit nie benut nie.
6. Die Leeus het hul huiswerk in die skrums baie goed gedoen. Vickery het ons gedwing om twee strafskoppe daar af te staan.
7. Hulle het in die lynstane gesukkel, maar ons kon ook nie ons dryfbewegings aan die gang kry nie. Ons moes dalk meer kort lynstane geroep het, want dan dwing jy die teenstander 10 meter weg. Dryfbewegings is ons sterk punt en ons kon nie daarvan speel nie.
8. In die moderne spel is die senters soos losvoorspelers en Wynand en Jaque het Brüssow goed bygestaan, maar ons het in die laaste 20 minute te los geraak. Met die agterstand wat al groter geword het, het ons meer en meer los begin speel.
9. Kearney was baie goed agter en Shane Williams het gewys hoe goed hy is. Ek was bly hy het op die regte tyd sy spelpeil herwin. O’Connell verdien punte omdat hy sy span aangespoor het om sulke rugby te speel.
10. Ons verdediging was baie goed en al hul drieë het uit gebroke spel gekom. Baie geluk aan die Bokke met die reeksoorwinning.
Daar is geen rede waarom ons nie die Drienasies-reeks ook kan wen nie. Baie sterkte aan die span daarmee.
6 Jul 2009, 06:18 am
#367 Fern: You can very easily notice the difference between his sober and not-so-sober posts. Once he had a few drinks, he starts spitting obscenities on this site at a blistering pace. No one on here is safe when Skopstess hits the bottle.
6 Jul 2009, 06:20 am
#367 Fern: Hehehehe stem saam!!!
6 Jul 2009, 06:22 am
#366 kwas: #370 Fern: #365 Koos: #362 kesbok:
Skoppie, Namakwaland en Langkop is almal gef@k in die kop.
Julle moet nie eens daai ouens se nonsens lees nie.
Hulle blameer steeds apartheid vir hulle swak lewensomstandighede.
Skoppie het n goeie kennis van sport, maar politiek het sy koppie in n pottie verander.
Ignoreer net, hulle sal nie verander nie, al praat julle ook watse sin.
Rassiste in die eerste graad, daai lot.
Werfbabjane……
6 Jul 2009, 06:24 am
#372 kwas:
Skoppie is a teetotaller and a vegetarian, and an ‘unsociable person’, as he told Carol.
In short, he is faktup.
6 Jul 2009, 06:28 am
#375 Pietman: Pete, jy weet ek los die klomp al lank, maar ek haal graag vir Fern aan…
if he isnt then the kak he posts whilst being sober is scary.,/i>
6 Jul 2009, 06:29 am
#374 Pietman: Dis moeilik om daardie tipe ape te ignoreer, Piet. Dis lagwekkend om hul reaksies hier te lees. Duidelik gesukkel om kop bo water te hou voor ’94, en nou dat hul meesters die land regeer, gaan dit selfs nog slegter met hulle. Baie bitterheid daar.
6 Jul 2009, 06:40 am
#376 Koos:
Miskien suip hy skelm…..
6 Jul 2009, 06:48 am
#294 TheTackler: #295 skopskiet:
You guys are basically saying the same thing – think outside the box, innovate. The coach would get the support of the players & public alike to take a potentially high risk approach and perhaps lose a view games in the experiment, if he was trusted implicitly.
It should be clear by now, even to the most one eyed fundamentalist, that PdV has neither the skills nor the trust & leadership required to take the Boks forward.
6 Jul 2009, 06:56 am
#298 cab: Het Cab, you got owned by Tackler again. Check out 312. You need to be more “clinical” in your approach.
6 Jul 2009, 07:04 am
#378 Pietman: of snuif hy iets, maar hy is soos n handomkeer. Een oomblik normaal volgende beserk.
6 Jul 2009, 07:08 am
#381 superBul: Jy bedoel hy het een van daai stickers wat se “Nil per mond”…beteken nie hy mag dit nie opsnuif of inspuit nie…
6 Jul 2009, 07:14 am
Die reeksoorwinning oor die Britse en Ierse Leeus was vir die Springbok-span van 2009 net so ’n groot hoogtepunt as om die Wêreldbeker te wen.
Dit was ’n droom van dié geslag Springbokke om teen die Leeus te kon speel en dié rugbyreeks te wen. Ongelukkig kon hulle nie met 3-0 wen nie, maar dit neem niks weg van die prestasie wat hulle behaal het nie.
Só glo John Smit, die Bok-kaptein, wat meen dit was die ideale voorbereiding vir die Drienasies-reeks wat wag.
Volgens hom is hulle nou oorgehaal om die reeks teen Nieu-Seeland en Australië ook te wen.
Voordat die span egter oor 10 dae weer saamtrek, sal die Bok-afrigter, Peter de Villiers, en sy bestuurspan mooi moet besin oor die groep vir daardie reeks.
Dit sal hom loon om van volgende week af sekere spelers vir die Curriebeker-reeks beskikbaar te stel en terselfdertyd die peil van ander spelers dáár dop te hou.
Die insluiting van Jannie du Plessis is ’n móét. Die Bokke kort ’n tweede vaskop in die groep en Deon Carstens se veelsydigheid baat die span niks.
De Villiers-hulle sal waarskynlik ook ’n plaasvervanger vir Andries Bekker moet vind nadat dié slot ’n kniebesering opgedoen het. Gelukkig is Danie Rossouw weer reg.
Spelers soos Ricky Januarie, Earl Rose en Jongi Nokwe behoort vrygestel te word om Curriebeker-rugby te speel.
Vier vleuels in die groep is onnodig, veral omdat daar soveel veelsydige spelers in die Bok-agterlyn is. Jaque Fourie, Jean de Villiers én Frans Steyn kan vleuel speel as dit moet.
De Villiers sal ook moet be?sin oor Morné Steyn en moet hom sy eerste keuse as losskakel maak. Ruan Pienaar bied uitstekende waarde as impakspeler en moet in dié verband ingespan word.
Juan Smith se spelpeil wek ook kommer. Hy kan net baat vind by ’n ruskans en sal hopelik op sy beste wees as die groep weer bymekaarkom.
De Villiers kan gerus ook vir Dewald Potgieter in Schalk Buger se plek kies. Dié Bulls-speler was skitterend vir die Opkomende Bokke en het goed ingeskakel toe hy vandeesweek saam met die span geoefen het.
Hy behoort, soos Zane Kirchner, te wys hy kan op die hoogste vlak speel.
6 Jul 2009, 07:21 am
#383 superBul: Die skrywer het ‘n paar Bulle uitgelaat…
6 Jul 2009, 07:26 am
Snor must go! Surely **** Muir $ the rest knows better? Whats going on??!
6 Jul 2009, 07:33 am
#375 Pietman:
Hy spyker seker ook nie.Nee die man is mal.
Bitter vark wat homself of iemand anders geen plesier gun nie.
6 Jul 2009, 07:34 am
“You really can’t allow the inmates to run the prison indefinitely without there being some kind of drawback.”
Gavin Rich telling it like it is…the boks have criminals in their team…lead by criminals.
Bakkies and burger come to mind!!
then the Boks go and protest…they think they the only ones hard done by!!!
Geez Bokke get a life and take the ‘persecuted me’ persona concrete block of ya.
6 Jul 2009, 07:42 am
#387 wallabie.: Fairly lame attempt at a wind-up Walla, lets hope it does not come back to bite you in the following weeks.
6 Jul 2009, 07:59 am
1. Beast
2. Smit
3. J Du Plessis
4. Bakkies
5. Victor
6. Brussow
7. Smith
8. Spies
9. Du Preez
10. Pienaar
11. Habana
12. J Fourie
13. De Villiers
14. JP Pietersen
15. F Steyn
16. Bismarck
17. Steenkamp
18. Roussow
19. Burger
20. M Steyn
21. W Olivier
22. Kirchner
Expanded Squad Members:
W Kruger
VD Merwe
Chilliboy
Bekker
AN Lock
J Deysel
Potgieter
Stegman
Vermaak
Jacobs
A Ndungane
O Ndungane
6 Jul 2009, 07:59 am
The boks could’ve won the game on saterday, the yonly had to kick the penalties, but instead they went for the linouts, and then got stopped a couple of times.
If they kicked all their penalties we would have won. The lions play negatively at the breakdown (the whole tour), if you punish them for every kickible penalty they will be forced to be more carefull at the breakdown and thus alllow for quicker which gives you a better chance of scoring tries, that’s how we won the last two games.
But what did we do, we tried to play “running” rugby? ALL THE TIME.
Strategy is this: Stay in their half, force penalties or score tries which ever comes first, kick for poles when ever possible. This will open up the game in the later stages.
6 Jul 2009, 08:01 am
A lott of people were talking about team selection after saterday, but that was not the problem, Kitch won the world cup with an inferior team to the All Blacks, we lost on Saterday with a superior team. Why?
Strategy and tactics were screwed up.
6 Jul 2009, 08:06 am
The article is quite correct – even last years tri nations was a disaster after poor selections and game plan cost us dearly – the team was able to beat the ABs at Dunedin and then what does PDV do he changes the team for the following test(bizarre) …. Also the Boks defence seems to be in tatters – what has happened to the rock solid green and gold defence???? The Wallaby backline will have a field day, and expect Deans to exploit this new weakness. The series against the Lions was won but the games were not a showcase of attacking rugby , and how long will it take SARU to get rid of PDV , when we have lost another Tri Nations ???
6 Jul 2009, 08:36 am
There are many things that point to the fact that as a RUGBY coach PDV is just not capable.
The tri nations will allow us to scrutinize the team, the plays, tactics, attitude and all the rest.
Chances are pretty good PDV is a muppit.
6 Jul 2009, 08:36 am
#387 wallabie.: Australia is doing pretty well, what with being run by inmates?
6 Jul 2009, 08:53 am
Ugh … I’m tired of this ****…
PdV is a good coach and he’s got the track record to prove it.
No-one in the SA media has ever bothered to do a proper profile on him and look at his CV.
Instead they all jump on the “it’s the players” or “it’s the assitants” bandwagon.
It seems that the only time when PdV has any say in the team is when they lose. Then it’s 100% his fault
6 Jul 2009, 09:09 am
#395 siener:
I totally agree. Leave PDV alone for the love of God.
When we beat the All Blacks at the House of Pain I read reports from so-called ‘insiders’ who claimed that Gary Gold and **** Muir were actually coaching the team. Fast forward to losing against NZ and the Aussies in SA then suddenly PDV is the problem.
Until one of these journos actually provides us with some sort of proof that senior Bok players are actually saying these things then their comments should be dismissed for the tabloid reporting that they are.
6 Jul 2009, 09:26 am
i have to agree, he has to be given the benefit of the doubt and its quick to start calling for heads when the team loses.i was quick to call for jw head when the chips were down and look what happened in the end. if anything i will wait until this year is finished and then join the call for his head. there is without a doubt something not right in the bok camp and this was evident in saturdays game. with the players at our disposal we should be putting all teams away. we also need to look at the assistants, personally i dont think muir or gold are the right men for the job.
6 Jul 2009, 09:34 am
#391 Breakdown Boy: Good comment. They only had to look at a couple of Bulls S14 games to see exactly what lins WO will be running and we were dof enough to actually do that time and time again. Crazy really!!
6 Jul 2009, 09:37 am
I see Gavin Rich and the Keo crowd are intensifying their efforts to get Pdv fired and discredited.
For long I have wondered who is actually coaching the boks, if it’s not Pdv and finally, Gavin here seems to say that John Smit together with his front player coach Victor Matfield, and back line coach Fourie du Preez are the actual coaching trio.
Well then Mr Rich and Mr Keohane, please arrange an interview or a press conference with this trio and ask them about their views on sellection and their game plan on Saturday.
I think you should blame them for the mistakes and NOT Pdv, as you say he has nothing to do with it.
“coach John” said the team didn’t show up. Please ask coach John what he meant in detail and what his plans are for the trinations.
Let’s leave Pdv out of it shall we, and moreover, ask John Victor and Fourie, all the questions.
6 Jul 2009, 09:46 am
#399 Optimus Prime: What I would like to now hear is the opinions of all the WO and Kirchner fans that said they should be there blah blah blah. Jean div still the best 12 in the country bay far!!!!!
….and Steyn at 15!!!
,but if Snor did not make the changes he did then we would not have been convinced of this. To me a worthwhile lesson
And no it is not because they payed behind a losing pack…there were many times that our pack was going backward in the other tests.
…same goes for Steyn at 10.
6 Jul 2009, 09:47 am
As usual in SA it is going to have to be broken beyond repair before anybody thinks to repair it. In terms of his starting point JW did a magnificent job but due to the fact that his skin colour did not fit the profile he was dumped. In fact the ANC and SARU and some idiots on this site used to criticise JW constantly and then when he brought the RWC home we were told that it was a poor tournament and we got lucky.
If JW was black we would have whitewashed the LIONS and would be launching a successful defence on our trinations title this year.
6 Jul 2009, 09:51 am
#399 Optimus Prime: …there is no lessons to be learned behind a winning pack, since we will not always be the most dominant pack, so if you can behind a losing pack then you have my respect.
The other thing…if JdV was there the grubber/chip kick would have been used and subsequint exposure of the rush defence.
If the game plan that the “players”
aggreed on did not work, why did they persist with it?
6 Jul 2009, 09:55 am
#401 DEE DAH: Quote from JW:
“All players are fetchers”
So no Brussouw…not sure if we would have been any further…
But saying that, I was dissapointed at the lack of support at the rucks and non commital of support for the guyt with the ball.
6 Jul 2009, 10:01 am
#403 Redrover:
JW won the trinations and the RWC with the BOKS and he built the most experienced side in world rugby, I like to think he knew something about the game.
6 Jul 2009, 10:07 am
#402 Redrover: Like I said. Someone call Victor, John and Fourie in and give them the tongue lashing.
6 Jul 2009, 10:09 am
#404 DEE DAH: Jake did not win the trinations in 2007.
Please do not make it sound as if this guy was some unbeatable force. He got his *** whipped regularily and badly. 49 – 0! And that’s just to mention one score line.
6 Jul 2009, 10:10 am
#383 superBul: Superbul is jy die man wat in die 80′s in Huis Marais was?? Ek wil nou nie my identiteit weggee nie, maar ek was langsaan in die ander koshuis ( die een met die Eiffel ). Was goeie pelle met Merwie en het haker gespeel. Miskien weet jy wie “praat”. Ek stem saam met wat jy sê!
6 Jul 2009, 10:11 am
…I am not disputing the achievement of JW, but he wasn’t perfect and made some bloopers in his time of which 49-0 would shout the loudest. For me, the jury is still out on PdV and so far he has made some mistakes, but to just fire someone for that would be premature.
6 Jul 2009, 10:11 am
#401 DEE DAH: Jake is an ***. And if he was soooo great. Why, when England, NZ and Aus, were looking for a coach at the end of 2007, did they not even consider your dream coach for the job? He had just won a WC didn’t he?
6 Jul 2009, 10:17 am
#405 Optimus Prime: What bugs me is the discipline of the team…we are allowing ourselves to be lured into nonsense and for this I blame this very sam “senior” players. The “younger” players should be able to take there lead from these guys, but even JS got frustrated with the ref….
6 Jul 2009, 10:26 am
#407 CharlesM:
Ek twyfel of dit my ou goeie vriend Superbul was.
hy was in Februarie vanjaar vir die eerste keer in die Kaap toe hy by my kom vakansie hou het.
Hy woon in die laeveld, Bosvelder van geboorte.
6 Jul 2009, 10:27 am
#410 Redrover: Go ahead dude. Gavin Rich says its the senior players. If they get the glory, they must get the bile too.
6 Jul 2009, 10:33 am
#380 Inevitable:
please tackler is as transparent as they come.
you on the other hand are more difficult to pick, a pompom?
6 Jul 2009, 10:33 am
Jake White – eventhough Boks lost crucial games under him, we all still had hope for the future of Bok rugby (proven right when we won the World Cup)
P Div – eventhough we won the Lions series (with a bit of luck), hope is fading fast.
The one thing I’m really looking forward to is the autobiographies of some current Boks in a few years time when they can give us the truth about P Div….
6 Jul 2009, 10:36 am
#414 panniepeet: No. I’m looking forward to Pdv’s tell all, expose book.
6 Jul 2009, 10:40 am
SUGGESTION:
Give this discussion a formal and international perspective by getting quotes from a broad selection of international commentators – journos and ex-players, which will hopefully take the racism and other petty issues out of it.
Even better and in addition to the series of quotes, get a poll done by an Aus, Kiwi, SH site similar to to Keo.co.za.
I am hoping the powers-that-be and including PdV, will wake up and notice that there are some urgent measures required. PdV seems either to be too arrogant or in too deep denial to understand or acknowledge this at the moment – given his comments on SABC TV this morning, even after the Hoskins session and Saturdays annihilation.
6 Jul 2009, 10:40 am
#409- and he openly approached the lions coaching staff for a job
6 Jul 2009, 10:41 am
#416 RugbyRIP: Sorry, meant NH not SH…
6 Jul 2009, 10:43 am
OK, me again – if Keo won’t do it, how about someone sticking something on Youtube and/or Facebook.
‘Might/should be there already, let me check
Maybe Jan23 put something up? Or could it be Elton?
6 Jul 2009, 11:13 am
#406 Optimus Prime:
Never said he won it in 2007 he won it in 2004 I should know I watched all 3 home games that year.
6 Jul 2009, 11:16 am
#415 Optimus Prime:
I am looking forward to PDV’s tell all book too. This way he can jabber on ad infinitum and the ghost writer can try and make sense of it all. With the clever editing you could turn Strauli into the BOKS best ever coach.
6 Jul 2009, 11:18 am
i wonder what happened to selection on merit, that the boks were beaten by the Lions, after having been turned into a second string outfit in the third test and stuffing around with the bench in the first? I thought you select your best representative team at ALL times
6 Jul 2009, 11:20 am
#420 DEE DAH: You are part of the “fire the coach campaign” right? You probably cannot stand that history will show that Pdv won the lions test series. Put’s that little spanner in your works hey? Hahahahahaha
6 Jul 2009, 11:28 am
Hellooooooooooo
I tend to disagree with Simon on this Article of his… we don’t need A NEW COACH…….. we need 3 NEW COACES…
Muir and Gary Glitter, the assistants who actually is supposed to do most of the actual coaching (with Snorrie more the Man-Manager), are abysmal, specially Muir.
Oh for the day we get the best specialists in their positions as coaches (and players)… Forwards coach – Heyneke Meyer definately…. and the jury is still out about backline coach and defensive coach, but it is’nt Muir and whomever is there now !!
Anyway, now we look forward to the Tri Nations and hope to hell all the prophets of doom who says that Snorrie’s being carried by the Senior Players is way off the mark…. I share their fear in this regard though.
6 Jul 2009, 11:29 am
No idiot – I am talking about the players and the way the selectors pick a team – merit or experiment?
6 Jul 2009, 11:32 am
#409 Optimus Prime:
Simple reason was that JW wrote a book about his issues with SARU. That was a mistake, only write expose’s when you have decided to end your career.
If that book had not come out JW would have got the England job. Nobody was willing to touch JW in fear that he would spill the beans on the incompetencies of the administrators in the RFU as he had with SARU. After Woodward the RFU have gone for yes men and that has been reflected in their results.
Australia wanted to stick it to their NZ counterparts so grabbed Robbie Deans without seriously considering anybody else. NZ have the same coach from the last world cup, no change so why bring a Saffa in?
PDivvie has inherited a RWC winning side and is not getting one iota of **** from SARU administrators or the ANC sports minister and the side has regressed. Explain that.
6 Jul 2009, 11:34 am
u there dee dah?
6 Jul 2009, 11:39 am
yip
6 Jul 2009, 11:43 am
#426 DEE DAH: All these countries according to you were desperate for the brilliance of Jake White.
Right…….And the toothfairy really does exist.
6 Jul 2009, 11:45 am
From following this, I reckon one has to wonder what the connection is between public parking areas, PdV and Optimus Prime?
6 Jul 2009, 11:50 am
#423 Optimus Prime</a
I will make no bones about it, I think PDivvie should go if he doesn’t improve his selection policy and his public relations. Actually I think he should just go.
When we won the Lions series I was spunking all over the settee. Absolutely overjoyed. I was however concerned at his tactical naivete with his substitution blunder in the first test. I slagged off JW when he made the same mistake against Wales in 2006. I am consistent.
PDivvie said he was picking form players and not on reputation Brussouw got a call up only after an injury to Schalk and then was promptly dropped for the second test when the coaching staff admitted Schalk was only 80% fit. Then Pienaar who had not played in over 3 months was picked ahead of Steyn. Brossouw and Steyn won the second test for us and had they been there from the start we would have won it by 20 points. This was a narrow series win a 19 point lead squandered and poor selections almost leading to a second test defeat. The less said about the 3rd test the better.
I would never hope for a BOK defeat in order to get the coach sacked that is pathetic, but this coach causes too much concern in my mind.
He was promoted early and he is being exposed. Don’t even begin to compare the experience that JW had with the lack of experience PDivvie has.
6 Jul 2009, 11:53 am
#429 Optimus Prime:
Try reading what has been said and stop putting words in my mouth. Aus wanted Deans and NZ retained there coach and England wanted a yes man. Where did I say they were desperate for JW’s services. ***** off you imbecile!!!
You are one of these idiots who will support somebody for the sake of supporting them. Tell me one innovative thing or selection that PDivvie has made whilst being in charge.
6 Jul 2009, 11:53 am
#411 Pietman: Daar is vandag 2 berigte in Die Burger wat feitlik woordeliks ooreenstem met Superbul se kommentaar – dog toe hy is ‘n joernalis. Hy het dit seker maar ge-”copy” en ge-”paste”.
6 Jul 2009, 11:54 am
#430 RugbyRIP:
Optimus is probably PDivvie why on earth would he be planning for the 3nations thats still a few weeks away.
6 Jul 2009, 11:56 am
#431 DEE DAH:
div
was promoted
for
political
reasons
nothing more
nothing
less
6 Jul 2009, 12:02 pm
#435 Porra the Fat Speedster:
Exactly right!
ANC and SARU would rather fail with a coloured coach than win with a white one. The Lions tickets were so highly priced because SARU realised results are about to start sliding so make hay whilst the sun shines.
With the money this tour has brought in they can afford a couple of years of poor gates and then get another coach into fix the situation.
6 Jul 2009, 12:07 pm
The man is not able to do the job.
Full stop.
He is incompetent.
It is as simple as that.
All the debate about results, politics, nice guys etc will not change the above.
So, where to from here?
SARU have created him, what will they do with him?
6 Jul 2009, 12:16 pm
#437 tight head:
nothing
it’s all part
of the
greater
agenda
6 Jul 2009, 12:53 pm
#432 DEE DAH: Adi Jacobs in 2008. You asked for one.
6 Jul 2009, 12:56 pm
#439 Optimus Prime:
Adi Jacobs was first capped by Jake White, now try again.
6 Jul 2009, 12:57 pm
#430 RugbyRIP: All I’m pointing out is that Pdv is being hated and ganged up on based on the fact that:
1. He does not speak like Prince William;
2. He does not look like Brad Pitt.
3. He is winning test series, when some people like the press, and Tight Head and Dee Dah are praying to God that he just gets fired.
It’s all there. I’m saying they should stop beating around the bush and tell us what their real reason is for hating Pdv.
I have a list of three points above, which I think is what is bothering them, if they want to expand. Please feel free.
6 Jul 2009, 12:58 pm
#430 RugbyRIP:
Same area, Primus is not far from kingwilliamstown (she lives in PE!).
6 Jul 2009, 12:58 pm
#440 DEE DAH: Adi was left to rot on benches by Jake the Snake and **** Muir. You try again.
6 Jul 2009, 13:00 pm
#436 DEE DAH: How has Pdv failed. Last time I checked, he won the series, something a whitye coach has not managhed in 29 years. I saw him beat Nz in Nz, something a white coach could not do in 10 years. Maybe government is tired of white boys that can’t deliver.
6 Jul 2009, 13:02 pm
#440 DEE DAH: Old Strooilie selected Adi way back in 2002 already.
6 Jul 2009, 13:04 pm
#434 DEE DAH: Okay. So by your thinking. Robbie Deans and Graham Henry are not thinking ahead of the trinations. That’s why GH rested Rodders. They are soooooo NOT preparing, that they even arranged to stop playing tests three weeks before hand.
Dee Dah. You are clearly a Jake White fan and lover. You have his poster on your wall I get it. You have 100000 copies of his book. You think his *** is cute. Whatever. Just do not think that the rest of the world agrees with you.
6 Jul 2009, 13:04 pm
#445 Beertjie: Why was he not part of the WC 2007 squad?
6 Jul 2009, 13:14 pm
#447 Optimus Prime: I like Adi. Strauli did him no favours by selecting him when he was not ready yet. If i remember correctly he was part of the infamous 53-3. That left him in the desert for a while and JW obviously did not rate him above Jaque Fourie, Francois Steyn and Olivier. Jake had an obsession with size.
6 Jul 2009, 13:23 pm
Well, what can I say… He’s a good old laugh also. Especially those media sessions. But, I don’t like him or his style…is Ignorant and Arrogant and choose to see only what he wants, he’s dishonest in other words.
6 Jul 2009, 13:30 pm
Recon the coach is the symptom, the real cause of the problem is further up in the hierachy. Maybe even right at the top.
6 Jul 2009, 13:47 pm
#441 Optimus Prime:
I do not pray that PDV get’s fired.
I have nothing againgst his accent or his looks.
I believe he is incompetent and has damaged our international reputation by his attitude at press conferences.
Incompetence and a poor attitude do not have any colour.
Try to see the real world and not the one of racial victimization that you have safely created in your head.
6 Jul 2009, 18:16 pm
“Who will rid me of this “troublesome” coach?” (Apologies to W.S.) – de Villiers is a consummate flop!
6 Jul 2009, 18:19 pm
#451 tight head:
TH, on the nose as always.
Must say, whilst I remember, I confessed that I was a little aroused at the Beasting of Vickery in the 1st Test, I must say that the comeback by the Lions/Jones to win that penalty in the 2nd Test was as close to scrummaging-porn as youre likely to see. Amazing moment, given the 1st Test shenanigans. And great comeback by Vickery in the 3rd.
Some really immense scrummaging throughout the Series. Did anything else happen ?
Would have been interesting to see if Heineke had been available. I think he is best SA prop if S14 form was anything to go by.
6 Jul 2009, 19:13 pm
#403 Redrover:
This cost us the game. This and nothing else. For all the talk about “tactical naivete” (which is true), the reality is that we still had far more legitimate chances at the try line than the Lions when we managed to actually keep ball in hand for more than 6 phases.
We didn’t commit men to the breakdown, left players isolated, and coughed up possession at key times. A large number of handling errors didn’t help either. It smacked of an unfocused team. Combined with our inability to take advantage of being a man up when Shaw went off, the Lions’ solid defense, and their clinical finishes of two chances that were a little lucky, I’m not surprised we lost.
Martyn Williams has been singled out as some sort of hero for his efforts at the breakdown by the British press. Yes, he played well, but the truth is that the Boks were incredibly sluggish at getting third and fourth men in for support. When they DID support, they suddenly managed to move the ball 40-50 meters with ease. But then, they seemed to forget how to run direct angles to actually score tries. Ridiculous.
7 Jul 2009, 05:17 am
South Africans have historically been the butt of jokes from our cousins to the north for our strange accents, lack of intelligence and an almost religious belief that we’re above the rest of the human race.
Ian Mac and Jake White have done an outstanding job of debunking those myths and shown the world that not all South Africans are slow witted and devoid of class.
How odd that the problem has raised its head again with a person of colour…so much so that he is openly mocked by the international media..and yet he just casually bounces back every week to give us more reason to cringe in embarrassment.
Much like our government.
8 Jul 2009, 09:50 am
For all the delusional JWhite cheerleaders including KEO, maybe u need to look at the Boks record in the 21 matches b4 2007 RWC and then tell us how great a team they were:
AB 33 Boks 6 L
Aus 25 Boks 17 L
Boks 21 AB 26 L
Boks 22 Aus 19 W
Boks 35 Sam 8 W
Boks 55 Eng 22 W
Boks 58 Eng 10 W
W XV 7 Boks 32 W
Eng 14 Boks 25 W
Eng 23 Boks 21 L
Ire 32 Boks 15 L
Boks 24 Aus 16 W
Boks 21 AB 20 W
Boks 26 AB 45 L
Aus 20 Boks 18 L
AB 35 Boks 17 L
Aus 49 Boks 0 L
Boks 26 Fra 36 L
Boks 29 Scot 15 W
Boks 36 Scot 16 W
Boks 30 W XV 27 W
Thats 11 wins and 10 losses. Thats a 52% win ratio.
U need to stop making out JW to be such a great coach whereas the numbers tell us otherwise.
Which “winning habit” are u referring to?
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