Pumas to join Sanzar party
14 Sep 2009
Sanzar has invited Argentina to join the Tri-Nations from 2012 to create a new Four Nations tournament.
The four teams will play each other on a home and away basis resulting in six matches per team and a total of 12 matches overall. The Four Nations will be played from mid-August (following the end of the new Super 15) for an eight or nine week period through until early to mid-October. In a World Cup year an abbreviated format will be played through July and August.
However, Sanzar has stressed that conditions are attached to the invitation. Argentina must secure the participation of their best players to play in the Four Nations, while Sanzar and Argentina must confirm the financial model that will apply.
‘To have the Pumas, third at the 2007 World Cup and currently ranked sixth in the world, join with the three top ranked international teams in world rugby will be exciting for fans, players, sponsors and broadcasters across our four countries and beyond,’ said SA Rugby acting MD Andy Marinos. ‘They play a different style to the All Blacks, Springboks and Wallabies and their inclusion will see the Tri-Nations evolve to be a truly southern hemisphere championship.’
Former Pumas captain Agustin Pichot, who is a member of the Four Nations project team, said: ‘I can’t express the joy of myself and the team that has been working on this project to get to this point. We are delighted to have the chance to become a great rugby nation and to play in top-level international rugby and we are committed to working with Sanzar to meet the conditions.
‘This exciting development will be vital to grow the game in Argentina. This is historic and everyone in Argentina should be proud.’
82 Comments
14 Sep 2009, 07:13 am
Puma Dragons!
This is great news!
14 Sep 2009, 07:18 am
good news indeed, bring some spice back into the tournament. travel gonna be a bugger though.
14 Sep 2009, 07:44 am
SANZARAR
Its a bit of a mouthful. This is gonna be awesome but I imagine there is gonna be a lot of arguments before it gets going
14 Sep 2009, 07:52 am
The Kiwi’s and Aussies are just keen to win a few more games, thats all.
14 Sep 2009, 07:53 am
Bye bye Currie Cup.
14 Sep 2009, 07:58 am
Tanlk about too much rugby, SANZAR do you want to kill the players?
Expanded Super 15 and now 4 Nations.
Too much. They’ll be a diluted Currie Cup as a result.
14 Sep 2009, 08:01 am
This is great news! Argintina will be no push overs once their players get to play top class rugby together on a regular basis! Very talented and passionate country!
14 Sep 2009, 08:09 am
About time ! The pumas deserve this and it will certainly strengthen rugby in the southern hemisphere
14 Sep 2009, 08:11 am
#5 BlueBlood: I don’t think the 4 nations will kill the Currie Cup. Each team will still only play 6 matches, there can be more than one match on any given Saturday.
If anything will kill the Currie Cup, it might be the expanded Super 15, depending on how they are gonna run it. Will they create pools, or will all teams play each other in a round robin? If so, it will extend the competition and will shift the 4-Nations till later in the year and might then kill the Currie Cup.
With the expansion of both comps, they can run both of them quicker, if the make 3 pools for the Super 15 and play more than one game per Saturday in the 4 nations, it could even leave a bigger window for the Currie Cup, I know it’s not gonna happen, but it could have been like that.
14 Sep 2009, 08:13 am
#9 Werner: Good post … some of the guys here need a little help with the maths.
14 Sep 2009, 08:14 am
Its gonna be a tough travel schedule for the boks? But as a fan I like it more games to watch.
14 Sep 2009, 08:18 am
#11 Wukong: why only the Boks?
14 Sep 2009, 08:22 am
So one of the SANZAR requirments is that Argentina has to secure the participation of their best players in the 4 Nations.
Interesting.
Does this mean that the Bokke are also required to use the Bokke currently plying their trade in Europe?
14 Sep 2009, 08:27 am
We gotta get our scrum firing on all eight cylinders in every game if we’re gonna play the Pumas!!!
14 Sep 2009, 08:27 am
#12 kevin w: can Argentina win a tournament against Australia and NZ without their European based players?
14 Sep 2009, 08:28 am
#15 kevin w: meant for jonnow #13
14 Sep 2009, 08:34 am
#15 kevin w: They kinda had to put that clause in there, if not it could have been bad for the tournament, couldn’t it?
You don’t want any gimme games in the top tournament in the world. Even though the Argies might take a couple of years to get used to the pace and intensity of playing the best teams week in and week out, it will defo help them in the long run and it will be great for world rugby. Then the world cup can potentially won by:
SA
Aus
Eng
France
Ireland
AND Argies
14 Sep 2009, 08:39 am
#17 Werner:
lol…
14 Sep 2009, 08:45 am
#17 Werner: WHAT!
You forgotten someone from that list…
Come On, they could still win, with a bit of luck and if they string some performances together.
You’ve forgotten Wales.
Now is should read:
SA
Aus
Eng
France
Ireland
Wales
AND Argies
There we go.
14 Sep 2009, 08:49 am
#12 kevin w: how long is the flight from Oz to Argentina? How long is the flight from SA to Oz or Argentina. Conceivably SA could fly to Arg play a game fly home play a game and then fly to Oz to play a game. Or maybe I am missing something here?
14 Sep 2009, 08:52 am
#19 WP_: Yes, you’re right, I left them out as they were busy rebuilding!
14 Sep 2009, 08:53 am
Hows about an expanded SH 6 Nations?
ARSANZARNAPA
Argentina
South Africa
New Zealand
Australia
Namibia
P.I. Combined team
Our rugby here could use the money!
14 Sep 2009, 08:54 am
#19 WP_: nz have won it once, eng too, ireland could never win the world cup, ……never!!
14 Sep 2009, 09:04 am
#21 Werner: haha, yeah, maybe than be in woth a shout but I doubt it tho!
#23 surreyshark4: I agree but like Wales they could, possibly, maybe win won day, but I reckon getting into a semi would be like a win for those boys.
14 Sep 2009, 09:05 am
#17 Werner:
C
classic with a capital C
14 Sep 2009, 09:12 am
#17 Werner:
New Zealand are in the same pool as France for the 2011 RWC. Effectively that means they’ll end up second in their pool..
14 Sep 2009, 09:17 am
#26 Predawn: ROFLMAO, the silence here today compared to Friday is refreshing
14 Sep 2009, 09:21 am
great news, but is mid August really the earliest start? How long is this damn super tournament gonna take now?
The trick here is to get a tournament that would only slightly clash with NH club season. Imagine the best players available from all six countries, and do it over six weeks. You play three at home, and then three on the road (or one at home- three on the road- two at home; etc.). Makes travel issues for all as possible.
I’m also guessing there’s current agreements to play out first, otherwise why not do it in 2010?
14 Sep 2009, 09:23 am
HambaGahlshe eCurrie Cup.
Its a crazy idea since the Argnetinian players all play in Europe and will NOT be released to play the 4 nations. So teams will travel and play agianst an understrength Pumas side. In theory all well and good but in practice a non starter
14 Sep 2009, 09:27 am
Poopal69 wanted to see me here on Monday and so I’m here.
14 Sep 2009, 09:27 am
#6 WP_:
It the same as now.
Aus & NZ 2009, 6 games
Aus, NZ & Arg 2012, 6 games.
Currie Cup will suffer, but it will still be good for SA as what would happen is that the teams can no longer rely on their Boks, they HAVE to build depth and develop new talent.
However, now they can get rid of the Vodacom cup, and make it a National Club Championship.
14 Sep 2009, 09:30 am
Fantastic news…..
14 Sep 2009, 09:33 am
#30 Predawn: ok i am out
14 Sep 2009, 09:34 am
cheers all
14 Sep 2009, 09:36 am
Why don’t we limit the tri-nations to every 4th year (between WCs)? Like the soccer WC and Euro. Or WC cricket and champions trophy?
Expanded Super15, watered down European teams touring SA, Nz Oz, expanded Tri-nations, CC, EOYT. It just becomes a bit too much rugby. I don’t see it as being sustainable.
We could have proper tours in between.
14 Sep 2009, 09:37 am
Awesome news!!! Should have happened 2 years ago though…
14 Sep 2009, 09:49 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL9ThdmZkFs&feature=rec-HM-fresh+div
it had
to happen
14 Sep 2009, 10:03 am
#35 Dumb Supporter:
there is something called the laws of physics, and it does not only apply to the physical world, but also the economical and social.
One of that is that you cannot heap too much food on your plate.
Moral of the story, the day it is too much, the signs will start to show, fans will stop coming because they do not have enough money, players will burn out, standards will start dropping, ect.
14 Sep 2009, 10:51 am
I think its great news for the pumas, but the travel arrangements are sure as hell going to be hectic and take their toll on the players.
14 Sep 2009, 11:13 am
It’s great news, but it’s not a done deal yet. The Argentinians have to secure the services of their top players and given that they are contracted mainly to European clubs that will not be an easy task. It’d be easier if they allowed an Argie franchise into Super Rugby so they could sign up their best players to central contracts and they can play for the Super Rugby franchise instead of Stade Francais, Toulouse, etc.
I’d also like to see the 4N become more like the world cup and have each competing nation take turns in “hosting” the tournament. That’d take the travel thing out of the equation although it’d give the hosting nation a huge advantage.
14 Sep 2009, 11:54 am
The only disadvantage with this new schedule is that we won’t be playing any series again against NZ and Aus! Only once off games at home and away and series constitutes two or more games!
14 Sep 2009, 11:57 am
Brilliant news !
At long last the Argies get due recognition. And their inclusion will add much needed variety to the SANZAR Comp.
Obviously Argies need their top players available if it is to be a success. And travel will be a huge factor.
If only SANZAR could have offered the 15th Super franchise to the Argies instead of the undeserving Aussies and Safas.
14 Sep 2009, 12:02 pm
NZ to travel all the way to Argies and get pummeled upfront then on the plane to SA arriving with some sore bodies. Justice at last!
14 Sep 2009, 12:04 pm
#42 BlackPanther: Agree there BP. Argies should have had the 15th Super Franchise. Would have made that comp better too. Only most of their players are playing up north. Also wish that they could have joined us in the Tri-nations next year and not wait until 2012.
They must play their best though otherwise it will be a farce.
14 Sep 2009, 12:07 pm
#35 Dumb Supporter: I would give up anything for proper tours to come back. Just don’t see that happening ever again.
Agree there is far too much rugby. S14 should have been S10 or the most S12.
Still pleased that the Argies will join us eventually.
14 Sep 2009, 12:09 pm
#35 Dumb Supporter:
Got to agree with you there. It is just becoming too much for the players and the fans. What will ultimately happen is the players are going to drop in performance level as they can’t perform at full strength week in, week out and questions will be asked about the players instead of the schedules. Also, they’ll drop out of the Currie Cup then, which will completely water it down.
But agreed, we need to develop a strong and capable second side.
Also thinking the Vodacom Cup should become a Club tourney then.
14 Sep 2009, 12:11 pm
This is good news of epic proportions! Let SANZAR show IRB how to expand the game!
14 Sep 2009, 12:34 pm
#44 Puma:
Well done to your team Puma, they were superb throughout Hamilton. If the ABs had won it would have been a stolen result. Atleast the ABs showed some balls in the 2ndH tho, Boks were simply too good in 1stH.
Im delighted Argies have joined, lets worry about the practicalities later, they have to hold their end of the bargain for player-releases tho, that is absolutely essential. But it adds variety, their own style is different to the others. Lets not be blind tho that Argies have never beaten NZ or SA, ever, and have only recorded 1 win IN Aus. Theyre always tough to beat in Argentina tho. Their economy is dire too, a bit of a worry. But great news.
I suppose it will be home and away – presumably travel will be restricted as now with 4 teams involved, they can ensure enough time for 1 team to arrive whilst another plays, thereby relieving situation like ABs arriving for a Test in Bloem 6 days after playing Aus – that simply does not lead to a quality product.
14 Sep 2009, 12:37 pm
#45 Puma:
Wouldnt it be great if the 4N was every 2nd year and in the other years there were full tours ? Both would create excitement in the other. Too much to ask I suppose and TV owners want reliable income streams.
Oh well, its still a major step in the right direction.
14 Sep 2009, 12:45 pm
#31 Greenpoint-Gunner: Maybe in terms of the 3/4 Nations – but the Super 15 will be in effect – which means plenty more games.
14 Sep 2009, 12:50 pm
Let the argies play in our domestic competitions: currie cup, vodacom cup, super 14, 1st division etc.
The currie cup is obviously going to be affected, why not do it in a positive way by changing with the landscape. Just think of the positives out of the IPL. Big names bring big crowds which gives you a big platform for big money.
As soon as I am a rich bugger I’m gonna buy myself a 2nd rate union and build it up. Imagine the griffons playing province in a final and some wonder kid flyhalve from georgia kicking the winning drop. We have so many teams but are missing the trick of filling them with players from countries who want a platform for exposure. At the start of a season any team should have the confidence of winning not just n.tvl, wp, lions, sharks and cheetahs.
14 Sep 2009, 13:02 pm
#3 DEE DAH: SANZARG
#4 WP_: yes I agree that had something to do with it, especially the Aussies
#13 jonnow: ha, nah I bet they’re not so keen on that
#15 kevin w: their European based players are available now the Tri Nations has been moved.
14 Sep 2009, 13:30 pm
#52 Big Hit: Not sure its the best move, the Boks whinge about travel now, whats it going to be like flying from SA to Buenos Aires for example ? that means more time in travelling east… must be the Australasians that have pumped for this, just to get them SA’s
and I can see the european clubs really releasing the players, not… happened with Samoa in a world cup, so to think they will release them for a SH comp is ridiculous…
14 Sep 2009, 14:11 pm
Hahah – now the Aussies can end no 4 on the log instead of third…
14 Sep 2009, 14:30 pm
#53 poppa69:
The alternative is even worse. French clubs will sign them but only on the basis they are ‘retired’ from International rugby, therefore losing them to the game at that level, incl potentially, RWCs. The same happens by default with NZ Test players, clubs knowing that theyre unavail if overseas. Thats why likes of Hayman get paid a fortune.
14 Sep 2009, 14:40 pm
#53 poppa69: the Euro clubs release them every year for Autumn internationals, they’ll probably be offered money too.
14 Sep 2009, 14:45 pm
#56 Big Hit: so that means the argie players will play in Europe, then throughout the SH, from Argentina to SA then to Australasia… man, thats some frequent flyer miles thats for sure
14 Sep 2009, 14:50 pm
#57 poppa69: nah I reckon the majority of them will play in the S14 for various teams but a few stars will play in the north, much like NZ/SA with Hayman/Van Niekerk etc except they’ll be available.
14 Sep 2009, 15:37 pm
Now all they need to do is add the Pacific Islanders to the mix. (If the Islanders can get Fiji back)
It might be a bit tedious at first having the Argies always finishing last, like Italy always used to do in the six-nations. Have the Pacific Islanders there would make it a bit of a dogfight for the wooden spoon, at least. And it would be great to grow the global game.
But provided the Argies can get their best players playing, theres no reason why they can’t eventually be contenders, because with their internationals playing regular rugby at the highest level in the hardest international competition in the world, they can only improve.
You certainly won’t have the boks saying Buenos Aires is boring.
14 Sep 2009, 15:53 pm
#59 Harlequin:
Cant see it happening. Its not just Fiji being the problem, Tonga and Samoa have a much greater rivallry and mistrust of each other. Simply, they dont get on. Most gang fights in Auckland, for eg, are between Tongans and Samoans.
It would be great tho and would also hopefully keep those players IN their respective island nations and not being thieved by NZ & Aus. Dont forget, however, that 50% of the last P.I. team that was here in November were born in NZ. So some qualification hurdles to jump there too.
But wouldnt it be brilliant. It would be disheartening for Pumas if they always rocked up as Spooners, and between Argies & Islanders, they would surely cause the odd upset of the big boys on a bad day. Not to mention an even better reason to double up a holiday in the islands with a 5Nations match in Suva/Apia/Nukualofa too. Love Suva, cool town, friendliest people on the planet.
Incidentally, did you know that one of the reasons why there are few Tests in Samoa (or is it Tonga ?) is that their 1 main ground is considerably smaller than IRB regulations permit. Therefore without the certain official stamp, insurance issues etc come in to play. The locals have known about it for years but havent done nowt. Thats life in the islands tho.
14 Sep 2009, 16:06 pm
#43 Shakes:
then they’ll finally realise that the wee maestro was right all along to raise concerns about hotel fatigue and second match syndrome… 
14 Sep 2009, 16:20 pm
Long overdue. The current model is too inbred. The argies have earned it the hard way. Not sure about them having to guarantee their best players when the others can’t. They should get the 15th super spot. They would have the travel schedule from hell, but it would help develop the game in an exciting marketplace.
14 Sep 2009, 16:25 pm
#59 Harlequin: What makes you think they will always finish last? They came 3rd last world cup without the benefit of being in a regular competition.
14 Sep 2009, 16:35 pm
#52 Big Hit:
SANZARTINA has a bit of a ring to it.
14 Sep 2009, 18:40 pm
62
The travel wouldn’t be too bad on them after all how many of them play at home in first place?
14 Sep 2009, 19:05 pm
#53 poppa69:
pops, you really ought to get yourself a better atlas – not that japanese version that shows them at the centre.
sa to argentina is a short hop across the atlantic – westbound.
doesn’t take a brain surgeon to work that one out.
14 Sep 2009, 20:03 pm
All right you budding brain surgeons.
A quick Google says flight time form Aus and NZ are about 19 hours. From J’burg its apparently under 17 hours.
A fair result for all travelling teams, no?
14 Sep 2009, 20:42 pm
Why don’t they start by making it a rule that every Super 14 team must have one Argie player in their squad?
These players can be picked from a pool of Argie players with the S14 franchises bidding for them, or something like that.
15 Sep 2009, 05:29 am
#66 charo: well Charo, Ive never flown from SA to Buenes Aires, and didnt realise an atlas showed the specific routes airplanes make
…in any case, the flight back would surely be the problem then? seeing as its west to east, isnt that always the common complaint?? or is it all east to west? fly east from SA to Argentina and then east from Argentina to SA ? I dont honestly know, perhaps a man with your intellectual capacity could enlighten me..
my overall point was the amount of extra travel all teams are going to have to do. SA have always complained that the “travel disadvantage” was what stopped their 3Ns tally being bigger, cant see how having extra travel added to the schedule will alleviate that conspiracy? can you?
and I know a super neurosurgeon, he’ll see you as soon as you call, dont waste time though, hes a busy man…
15 Sep 2009, 05:31 am
#69 poppa69:should be “fly west from SA and then west from Argentina”
15 Sep 2009, 07:39 am
go Pumas i am so happy for them, it is about time that we got them into our conference
15 Sep 2009, 07:49 am
#47 King Shark: Hahaha Watch SANZAR expand the game! Are you for real? Have Australia or New Zealand ever done anything to help out the Pacific Island nations on their doorstep? No they just cherry pick their best talent and leave them with no hope of ever competing anywhere near their true potential. I don’t include South Africa in this bracket, but to say SANZAR will expand the game of world rugby, when they allow a team that got to the semi finals of the world cup, with all their players playing in the European leagues is pretty stupid. There is no Union that really does anything to expand the world game, because they do everything in their own interest. It is actually the European clubs that are helping to grow the game, because they as employers provide a good level of professionalism to anyone who’s talented enough, but they wont prevent them from representing their own country. Hence Argentina’s rise within the game and hopefully in the future Georgia, Romania, USA and with a bit of luck many more countries.
Having said this, I’m very glad that Argentina have finally been included within an annual tournament, but unless they get their own franchise in the Super tournament, it will always be at the wrong time of the year for their players and they’ll be regarded as the “easy team”.
15 Sep 2009, 07:55 am
Bring it on. More travel for all concerned. The huge advantage for SA is that the ANZAC alliance won’t be quite as strong.
Matters pertaining to refereeing and citings should become a whole lot more consistent.
15 Sep 2009, 07:59 am
#72 HongKongSlong: I think the idea is for the franchises to employ 2 Argie players each and the new S15 franchise to get to choose 5 Argies.
This maybe rumour and speculation, but would be one way of employing them in the Southern Hemisphere.
15 Sep 2009, 08:01 am
#74 Connag: The other thing of course, is that 2012 is couple of years away and you would think, that a number of the Argy players in NH will be coming off contracts.
15 Sep 2009, 13:28 pm
#19 WP_: What about including all total of 19 teams?
15 Sep 2009, 13:32 pm
#72 HongKongSlong: “No they just cherry pick their best talent and leave them with no hope of ever competing anywhere near their true potential”
Yawn. Tell me which talents have they cherry picked in a last few years. Or even a decade.
Excluding long used example of Sivivatu.
15 Sep 2009, 16:07 pm
#77 Nils:
Even Sivivatu was educated in NZ tho.
Beast ?
15 Sep 2009, 23:43 pm
#78 WakaNathan: Rhodesia traditionally played in South Africa’s Currie cup. Yes we nurtured their players we did not merely rape them of their players.
16 Sep 2009, 07:01 am
#78 WakaNathan: No way. He was the Brightest talent in Fiji, he had to hide in Fiji jungles for 17 years, trying to evade mean Kiwi commandos, sent to the island.
Alas, not too long before his 18th birthday he was captured and sent to the slave ship bound to NZ.
Others were even more unlucky (like Mils or Roko), they were stolen from kindergarten in Suva in the middle of the night.
All others were extracted from their mother wombs already in NZ or their parents/grandparents were shipped chained to the deck.
16 Sep 2009, 07:02 am
#79 Connag: “Yes we nurtured their players we did not merely rape them of their players.”
Not you sound like BH.
16 Sep 2009, 07:04 am
#80 Nils: ouch, Mils was stolen on his long way to the Apia kindergarten, as he was too young to be there already.
2 years old kiddy. The brigthest talent in Samoa. Those Kiwi poachers definitely have crystall ball.
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