Pleasing the politicians
26 Oct 2009
Colour remains an issue when it comes to national rugby team selections, writes Keo in his weekly Business Day column.
In the latest issue of SA Rugby magazine Springbok coach Peter de Villiers defends his stance towards transformation. De Villiers says he will not play a numbers game because it will do players more harm than good.
De Villiers, in defending why he only picked two non-white wingers and a Zimbabwean-born prop in his Springbok team that won the Tri-Nations, argues his team has been transformed because the colour of a player’s skin does not matter any more.
If you believe merit selection is the only way, it gets even better because De Villiers tells his critics, among them the Transformation Committee, to get lost, asking what contribution have they made.
But it is one thing to talk a good game and quite another to play it, and the playing of this transformation game will come with the Springbok squad selection for the five-match tour of Europe.
De Villiers will take 37 players for the three-Tests and two midweek matches, but already indications are that despite his bullish stance on only seeing players and not colour, the colour of a player’s skin will indeed dictate certain selections.
De Villiers will take three hookers and three scrumhalves, yet two players who have been bits and pieces selections in this year’s Currie Cup are certainties to tour. Chiliboy Ralepelle, at hooker, and Ricky Januarie, at scrumhalf, will be selected, despite not being the premier provincial selections in their respective positions.
De Villiers could argue that if he was selecting those provincial sides he would be picking them and that is why he is doing it now, but in the case of hookers the whispers are that not only will he select Ralepelle, but the Bulls’ third choice hooker Bandise Maku is also going to make the trip.
Where does this leave the Bulls’ first choice hooker Derick Kuun or the very impressive Western Province hooker Tiaan Liebenberg? Would the selection of Maku ahead of either send out the wrong message that Springbok touring squads are still a black numbers game, designed to bluff the public and appease the politicians.
When picking a squad of 37 there is always room for calling a black player bluff, as we’ve seen so many times in the past. You only have to ask what happened to Solly Tyibilika, Hilton Lobberts, Kabamba Floors and Hanyani Shimange’s Test careers. And let’s not even go further back to other players who are victims of black player politicking.
This tour should be about winning Tests and developing the next tier of player that can go beyond the 2011 World Cup. It should also be a tour that defines there has been a shift towards merit selection at a Bok level.
I doubt it will be, though, and another selection that will ask more questions than it gives answers is if De Villiers picks Earl Rose ahead of Western Province’s Joe Pietersen or the Sharks’ Stefan Terblanche, with the latter two being the best fullbacks in the Currie Cup.
Rose has been poor all season and while De Villiers has invested in him at a national level for the last year, he still has not picked Rose to play in a Test match. Currently there are players more deserving of wearing green and gold.
Juan de Jongh, the outstanding Western Province midfielder, is a tour prospect, but he is a player very much in the mould of Adi Jacobs and selecting both is a luxury. In an ideal sporting world, it should be one or the other, but as we know South African rugby is never ideal and it certainly is not a sporting world.
Politics will sadly play a part with the Bok squad selection and despite what De Villiers may publicly say colour is an issue when it comes to national rugby team selections. It is sad because there are so many good players deserving of selection, simply because they are good players.
There are fine black and coloured players in this country, with many of them the best in their positions. Pick those players because they deserve to be there.
The midweek Bok side would on merit include several black and coloured players. The Test side, on merit, totals less than a handful. That is the reality and when De Villiers picked two non-white wingers and a Zimbabwean prop he was picking the best available black talent.
He needs to remain true to this view, however unpopular it is in the Portfolio Committee, because it only needs one obvious non-merit selection to undermine every black merit selection.
Saturday’s squad selection could be monumental for who isn’t picked, but something tells me it will be all too familiar and all too political.
554 Comments
26 Oct 2009, 12:01 pm
Transformation Dragons!
26 Oct 2009, 12:06 pm
when is just being a Saffa going to be enough…..in the great words of Justrugby…..
26 Oct 2009, 12:09 pm
They are going to destroy Chilli and Bandise’s careers. These okes have what it takes they just need time and exposure at this critical level.
26 Oct 2009, 12:09 pm
I must say I like the fact that Saffas spell ‘colour’ in the normal way and not the bastardised yank version ‘color’
26 Oct 2009, 12:13 pm
how many non-merit selections does it take to nullify every white selection keo?
26 Oct 2009, 12:16 pm
I hope not we going to lose some of our youngsters that’s been standing out this season. We have so much tallent and we have to keep these guys in south africa. Hope all the 37 players who’s going on tour will get game time.
26 Oct 2009, 12:30 pm
This is an average article.
Chiliboy will be in the mix if he is not injured we all know that by now. He is a young talent that is being developed. Therefore I dont understand why Bandise Maku’s name is mentioned. Come on Pieter De Villiers’s selections and results have been good enough, Haven’t they ? Give the oke a break. Look at how well Brussouw and Steyn have done this year.
Its the IDEAL oppurtunity to blood a few new players.
And as much as a I dont like Earl Rose , he might feature. But hey ,we won a F*cking world cup with Ashwin Willemse in the squad. I know Earl wont feature in the tests , so im not really too fazed.
26 Oct 2009, 12:31 pm
lol, keo you have almost completely changed your tune, a few years ago it was all transformation. I think the coach is doing fine, he is picking the best, but also identifying potential talent to go thru.
Maku over Liebenberg and Rose over Pietersen would be a bit crazy tho.
26 Oct 2009, 12:33 pm
Isma-eel Dollie and Morgan Newman have been selected for training squads. But neither ever played for the Boks.
Catch my drift.
Keo’s paranoid…
26 Oct 2009, 12:34 pm
How sad.
Hopefully PdV picks a good squad which deserves to be there.
If he picks Maku it will be a joke, same with Ricky.
Adi’s form this year, especially in the latter stages of the CC doesnt warrant a place in the squad imo. I’d take de Jongh instead.
26 Oct 2009, 12:38 pm
Bok team for the 2011 WC :
Beast
Chilliboy (cpt)
Guthro
Matfield
Lobberts
N Blignaut
Brussouw/Burger
Ashley Johnston
Fourie/Heini
Francis
de Jongh
Adi
Habana
JPP
Jantjies
unbeatable
26 Oct 2009, 12:38 pm
1000 hits coming
26 Oct 2009, 12:39 pm
Reserves :
John Smit
Bismarck
Bakkies
Spies
Morne Steyn
J Fourie
Earl Rose
26 Oct 2009, 12:40 pm
We are now 15 years into the New South Africa, and yet there is still this completely misguided school of thought from politically connected groups that transformation in sports occurs at national team level. How ridiculous! These politicians should take a trip to a school like Grey College and watch the under 13s being trained. They should then go and look at the U14s, 15s, etc, and finally the first team. Here they will see the foundations being laid for a young player to develop into a professional rugby player. They should then go and put structures in place either to duplicate this kind of environment for hundred of the most talented black players, or they should find talented black youngsters and assist them to attend the strong rugby schools where they will be developed.
Most of our best black rugby players have already come through these channels, so the message is clear; expose more talented young black players to world class coaching and development when they are in their early teens, and you’ll find a good percentage of them making their way as professionals a few years later.
Bottom line – there is virtually nothing De Villiers or any other Springbok coach can do to develop genuine, merit Springboks. This needs to be done far earlier. A ‘quota’, however unofficial, on a Springbok team is political plastering over deficiencies in true development, and has nothing to do with real transformation.
26 Oct 2009, 12:41 pm
#11 Julius: i dont do small talk. Ur a silly P*es. its that simple.
26 Oct 2009, 12:42 pm
#14 toughnrumble:
good post, the national side should be the best, but surely the coach is allowed to take along 1 or 2 players he feels has potential. always worked like that, even outside SA.
26 Oct 2009, 12:43 pm
Ismael Eal Tollie = k@kkest flyhalf ever to play CC rugby
26 Oct 2009, 12:45 pm
Dollie het n klein tollie. What you talking about man this oke is the new lomu
26 Oct 2009, 12:45 pm
De Jongh is a better prospect than Jacobs, in the humble opinion of the katman, as he tackles like a pitbull, whereas Jacobs does little more than get in the way. Also, Div has to take Lionel Mapoe along and give him some game time. This won’t be making up the political numbers -it will be recognising a real rising star. Not convinced about Chilli or Maku though.
26 Oct 2009, 12:50 pm
Look I will be happy with De Villiers if he selects in people he believes in. That is what any coach will do.
Some however will read whatever they want into it.
And because we sit in SA, it will come down to race more often than not.
I believe De Villiers to be an honest oke however. So if he picks Rose it will be for the exact same reason Jorrie Muller and Gus Theron was picked in the past.
I would hate it, but accept it.
26 Oct 2009, 12:50 pm
They ought to give us a smiley for a big yawn.
#12 charo: Naaah the bloggers who were catalysts for that are gone.
26 Oct 2009, 12:51 pm
#16 cab: Absolutely. Excellent young players (of any colour) who may not be quite there yet as far as test rugby is concerned, but have the goods to get there soon, should be involved in the mid-week games. In my opinion, this should include players like Juan de Jongh, Lwazi Mvovo, Lionel Mapoe, Ashley Johnson as well as guys like WP Nel, Jean Deysel and Dewald Potgieter.
All of these guys are talented, young and have already broken through into the starting line-ups of their provincial unions. Some of them are already putting pressure on incumbent Springboks, whilst others are going to be doing so in the next year. My point is there’s a big difference between guys like these, and guys like Earl Rose and Bandise Maku who have never yet been established first-choice provincial players. Or a guy like Ricky Januarie, who is hardly a development prospect at this stage in his career, and is 2nd choice at WP (and probably behind at least 5 players in the country in his position right now). Picking these guys is purely making up the numbers and does no real good.
26 Oct 2009, 12:58 pm
Colour remains an issue when it comes to : Keo trying to lure hits to his website.
26 Oct 2009, 13:04 pm
#22 toughnrumble:
yes i think those 7 players you specifically pick out are merit selections, with mvovo a bit more risky.
Januarie is a tough one, even WP prefer to select the other scrummies because his service is not firstrate, yet he brings other things to the role and scored that magnificent try in new zealand. i like ricky’s pluckiness, but agree there are far better scrumhalves in SA at present imo.
26 Oct 2009, 13:07 pm
#23 stephen: HAHAHA, I like
26 Oct 2009, 13:11 pm
YAWN!!!
26 Oct 2009, 13:11 pm
i feel sorry for derrick kuun as he deserves to be a bok
but i think chilli boy is as kak as u can get and shouldnt be anywhere near a bok jersey
i would like to see Kabamba Floors back in the boks he was really good a few years back and ricky is still a great player
just out of form dont give up on him just yet
would be crazy to leave out Stefan Terblanche also
26 Oct 2009, 13:12 pm
#23 stephen:
Keo.Dot.Co………SA Rugby Magazine……..Business Day………
The lines Journalistic Overlapping are becomeing clouded to a Antipidean No Brainer like me.
Sell, sell, sell……..
26 Oct 2009, 13:16 pm
#27 klippies101:
Glad you not selecting the squad.
26 Oct 2009, 13:17 pm
#22 toughnrumble:
If he wasn’t playing 7s I’d have added Paul Delport to that list.
The one problem is going to be Ashley, as Naka is busy converting him to hooker.
26 Oct 2009, 13:18 pm
#27 klippies101: You’ve got to be joking. Oom Stef must sit on his bank stoel and smoke his pyp whilst reminiscing about the days when men used to be men. We have youngsters who show real promise who can fill in that role.
26 Oct 2009, 13:18 pm
#24 cab:
“that magnificent try in new zealand”.
Lucky Bounce Enrico we call Him……………..I prefer Bolla myself. However SA is Blessed with depth in the halves………and the Loosies…..and the locks…..
.
.
.
..
and for what it’s worth cab………….Did you ever see me spell SA with a small s and a.
26 Oct 2009, 13:18 pm
#28 cane: Okay, here’s something closer to home for you. And a little more in line with your expectations of “credible journalism”:
Auckland – An Auckland rugby team celebration involving Viagra-laced beer features in All Blacks lock Ali Williams’ new book.
Williams recounts how the Graham Henry-coached Auckland team’s 2002 celebration of their National Provincial Championship (NPC) win went slightly awry in an excerpt published in New Zealand Sunday newspapers.
The Auckland team, which won the final after a string of upsets, was celebrating the victory when a nameless player, who had agreed to source some Viagra as the result of a bet, distributed the pills, used to treat erectile dysfunction.
Williams said at least half a dozen of the pills were emptied “on the sly” into the beer-filled NPC trophy, which was doing the rounds of the celebrating team, including Henry.
All Blacks coach Henry did not want to comment on the incident following the book’s release.
26 Oct 2009, 13:18 pm
Smith, Smit, FdP, Bakkies, Victor and Brian should not be considered for the end of year tour. With this in mind my choice would be:
1. Beast Du Preez
2. Bissie Tiann
3. Jannie WP nel
4. Danie Van Zyl
5. Bekker Muller (c)
6. Ratel Stegman
7. Schalk (c) Deysel
8. Spies Kanko
9. Ricky Duvenhage
10. Morne Grant
11. JPP Nokwe
12. Wynand Rian Swanepoel
13. Fourie Adi
14. Ndugane Mapoe
15. Pienaar Kirchner
Obviously players like Vermuelen, Chilli and others should also tour.
26 Oct 2009, 13:20 pm
Sorry B-team didn’t come up for some reason?:
1. Du Preez
2. Tiann
3. WP nel
4. Van Zyl
5. Muller (c)
6. Stegman
7. Deysel
8. Kanko
9. Duvenhage
10. Grant
11. Nokwe
12. Rian Swanepoel
13. Adi
14. Mapoe
15. Kirchner
Obviously players like Vermuelen, Chilli and others should also tour.
26 Oct 2009, 13:25 pm
#35 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
If anyone’s in doubt about your provincial allegiances, that team should help them,
26 Oct 2009, 13:30 pm
#36 David: 5 Sharks, 4 WP, 4 FS, 2 Bulls. Seems an even split when looking at the CC and considering the Bulls were terrible before the return of Boks. Muller may be a dodgy call, but who else to captain it?
26 Oct 2009, 13:33 pm
I have no problem with any of the black players he’s chosen as long as he’s keeping the politicians in their place.
Transformation committee can go to hell!!
26 Oct 2009, 13:33 pm
#32 cane:
lol, apologies New Zealand.
26 Oct 2009, 13:36 pm
#37 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
I’d have Potgieter in as captain at either 6, 7 or 8. I genuinely think he’d make a great 6 in the same way that Wickus did when he moved there. I really don’t think Kanko is still a realistic option at test level, as exciting as he is with ball in hand.
26 Oct 2009, 13:38 pm
#37 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Ruan Pienaar at 15…..there we go again…ref flag to this Bull….
26 Oct 2009, 13:40 pm
#40 David: Kanko i feel sorry for…he is going backwards and then nailed as he doesent shine…thats the problem when a team scrums poorly.
I want to see a dominamt Bok scrum…then watch the kankos and spies boys deliver.
26 Oct 2009, 13:40 pm
#41 grant10: and if justrugby sees that…ooooh fok…oorlog i tell you!
26 Oct 2009, 13:43 pm
Can some of our black bloggers comment on whether you would want to be included for political reasons?
The problem I suppose is that no-one will officially say who is there as a quota and who not.
26 Oct 2009, 14:12 pm
Peter de Villiers has certainly changed his tune on transformation. It seems he has realised that being the Springboks afrigter is no child’s play with all the emotional symbolism that gets attached to the team. Unlike when he was U21 coach, everyone pores over his comments about selection, let alone the actual selections. Here is a glimpse at how Peter thought things had progressed in our rugby refelected in his own selections.
Baby Boks to fry French
SA U21 coach Peter de Villiers has picked his strongest side to play hosts France in Issoire on Saturday.
“I am confident that the best team has been selected to play against France,” said de Villiers. “They are really a strong outfit and have won both of their matches comprehensively.”
The team shows five changes to the starting line-up that thrashed the Georgians 102-17 in round two of the IRB World Championship.
A wholesale change has been made in the front row, with Heinke van der Merwe, captain Chiliboy Ralepele and Sangoni Mxoli all making a return.
Bulls Super 14 flanker Pierre Spies starts at No 8 in place of Ashley Johnson, while vice-captain Marius Delport is back on the left wing.
De Villiers’s side have been impressive in the first two games, but the real test will be on Saturday when they play one of the tournament’s best sides.
“They are a proud nation and on home soil even prouder. We are also a very proud team and nation. We have prepared well and look forward to the challenge.â€
“We are well aware that only a win will guarantee us a spot in the semis. We will do our best to make our country proud’, said captain Chiliboy Ralepelle.
Kick-off is at 18.00 and the match will be broadcast live on SuperSport.
SA U21: 15 Scott Spedding, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Waylon Murray, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 Marius Delport, 10 Isma-eel Dollie, 9 Jano Vermaak, 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Hilton Lobberts, 6 Keegan Daniel, 5 Wilheim Steenkamp, 4 Nikolai Blignaut, 3 Sangoni Mxoli, 2 Chiliboy Ralepele, 1 Heinke van der Merwe.
Subs: 16 Bandise Maku, 17 Werner Kruger, 18, Alistair Hargreaves, 19 Adriaan Strauss, 20 Warren Malgas, 21 Morgan Newman, 22 Cedric Mkhize
This entry was posted on Thursday, June 15th, 2006 at 3:39 pm and is filed under News. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.
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37 Responses to “Baby Boks to fry French”
1. ebay addict :
June 15th, 2006 at 3:41 pm
good team, they should do well, seems like alot of these guys have had s14 experience
2. saffa_guy :
June 15th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
Good to see Dollie in the 10 jersey. Tut, tut, how could the idiots choose Peter “The Dud” Grant above this guy. Another WP talent lost …
3. handbagslasher :
June 15th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
Go Chilli!!
4. Redox :
June 15th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
I think this side has good balance , i like the fact that he hasnt sacrificed the attacking skills of dollie at 10 just because he isnt the worlds best goal kicker which is what most sa team usually do. Would have preferred JP at full back but with spedding at 15 he can provide cover in the goal kicking dept.
5. seamus :
June 15th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
Saffa,
Where is Dollie plying his trade?
6. Jurgens :
June 15th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
pierre spies is going to be a legend..new bok captain of the future
7. oxfordshark :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
It would be great if this side could stick together and in a few years time become an aweome Bok side
8. Blou_Bok :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Very good team, gonna be a awesome game – i believe Boks will take this one, but not by much!
Al Hargreaves and Cedric Mkhize should not be on the bench!!
9. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:10 pm
Where is Meyer Bosman??? That would have added an even more solid look to this talented side.
10. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
And hopefully SARU will stick with the winning succession plan they stumbled onto when Jake was appointed (granted, by accident…).
Allow Pieter de Villiers to coach these talented future stars this year, then make him an assistant or technical analyst for RWC2007 and then appoint him bok coach in 2008.
That way he will have an existing bond with the older and up-and-coming stars for 2011 – and will already know which of these players will be his nucleus for 2011.
11. banana boy :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Dollie will play 10 for the boks next season!
12. LoveJoy :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:15 pm
blou,
I think Mkhize is just coming back from injury.. might be wrong tho…
awesome side tho… and a real shame that bosman was withdrawn!
13. banana boy :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:16 pm
sounds good Mongril, lets hope they think of it or not as the case may be!
14. shai :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Dollie is with the Spears
15. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Banana Boy – I’ve got real hope with Regan Hoskins in the chair.
He is a quiet man, but when he speaks he makes sense.
Unfortunately most of his time thus far has been spent sorting out van Ruin’s egotistical f-ups.
16. banana boy :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:23 pm
Sounds good, lets wait any see…. so far things are looking a bit brighter than they were.
There is hope!
17. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Yes, it’s all we could do for so many years now…
I’d love to see PdV with Rassie (forwards) and Eugene Eloff (Backs) as the team to take over from JW one day.
18. big g :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:31 pm
what a good team…
cedrik was injured but id keep him on the bench anyway, delport and pieterson much better!!
spies and chilly will have to fight it out for the bok captaincy one day…
19. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Yes Big G – but if you moved Pietersen to 15 and slot Mkhize in at 14, you’ve got a REALLY dangerous backline!
20. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Would have been great if Bosman was at least on the bench to cover 10 and 12 as well.
21. greenbok :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
Oh my sack…
I cannot believe the line-up on Saturday…
AB’s v Ire.
Aus v Eng.
Sa v Sco.
Sa v Fra.
Goodbye wife.
Hello strife.
Joy.
22. big g :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:39 pm
and take out spedding?! look im a shark supporter, but i saw what mkize could(n’t) do to my dismay… went to loftus and he missed 6 tackles in 21min!!!
i agree bosman shoulda bn there, looks like a strong player…
Players to watch tho: Barrit, spies and keegan!!!
23. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
And Chilliboy, Pietersen and Delport.
At least bok legends to come from this group by 2011.
24. Mongril :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:42 pm
Sorry – should be “at least 6 bok legends”.
25. Ig :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Greenbok…you left out the Wales v Argie game to take it to 10:30
Sheeesh that would be a decent Super 14 side….Agree re the legends to come from this team.
26. BokinOzzie :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
The last ecuador goal was bloody good.
27. BokinOzzie :
June 15th, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Maybe the baby boks will get inspiraion from that goal and go on to beat the frogs.
28. BokinOzzie :
June 15th, 2006 at 5:04 pm
inspiraion = inspiration
29. Jason :
June 15th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
go boys!! good luck
30. capeflatsboy :
June 15th, 2006 at 8:53 pm
Dollie is joining the Lions after this tournament. I have reliabily been informed that Eloff his u19 coach negotiated a release for him from the Spears.
So true, the WP talent spotters or shall I rather say Mr Mallett believed he was too small.
31. xsaffa :
June 16th, 2006 at 2:48 am
chester will be the next coach and barritt will be the magician that makes him look good
32. QC :
June 16th, 2006 at 8:21 am
Great team… Go boys go… Make S.A proud.
33. St.Petersburgbok :
June 16th, 2006 at 11:57 am
And herein lies one of the major problems really…….
Chilli was made Captain and starting hooker.
Adriaan Strauss is ahead of him in the pecking order at his union…is more experienced, is stronger and is currently a better player.
It’s all fine and well for the national coaches to ***** about the franchise coaches not assisting them…but then when they show blatant disregard for the franchises structures and pecking orders….?
No sympathy from me for the national coaches…?
They make their own beds.
34. Anvil :
June 16th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Ja, Great side.Pretty strong all around.
Go Babes !
35. Stan :
June 16th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Spies and Delport to be the players of the tournament.
36. Harlequin :
June 16th, 2006 at 3:47 pm
this team is so good its scary
37. DonBilly :
June 16th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
What about the French side? How good are they?
26 Oct 2009, 14:18 pm
#45 Pearl Rose: This post requires editing.
26 Oct 2009, 14:25 pm
Keo and his sources again. Just when I thought, “At last, a pro-PdV post!” But alas…
26 Oct 2009, 14:27 pm
#42 grant10: You’re like a dog with a bone, just won’t let go. Which pack do you see coming up tops on Saturday?
26 Oct 2009, 14:32 pm
#44 Dumb Supporter:
Guys. It’s important to note that the intention of affirmative action/quotas/tranformation was that merit had to be a factor of selection. Selecting for colour was never meant to be at the expense of quality. Black players had to be either arguably as good as their white competition or display the ability to develop into the number one merit selection in that position regardless of colour. If these criteria are applied, I see no reason for black players or their white teammates to feel aggrieved by their selection.
We have seen examples of this forward thinking method of selection even between white players: Frans Steyn at the beginning of this season was not a popular selection with Bok supporters because it was (rightly) felt that Stefan Terblanche was the country’s form fullback; Ruan Pienaar was picked at flyhalf on potential despite the likes of Morne Steyn having had outstanding seasons at flyhalf for his union. Other players who’s careers were launched in a similar way where coaches backed their potential and didn’t base their selection purely on the level of the player at that moment are Joe Van Niekerk, Victor Matfield, Gaffie Du Toit, and many others. A similar move looked likely for the late Francois Swart RIP.
Players like De Jong, Burton Francis, Chilliboy, Mbiyozo, Ashleigh Johnson, Mthunzi “Fudge” Mabetha, that gigantic Eagles lock who’s name I forget, and many others may not be at that level just yet but they can grow to become the merit players in their positions. The provincial unions are not coming to the party. I understand the financial imperitives and pressures on the coaches and CEOs at the Unions but we have got to develop a culture of celebrating the development of black talent.
I wonder whether anyone remembers how the Ndungane twins were the first time we were exposed to them. Sub-par would have been a complement, but they were worked on and their selection for the Boks is now never disputed because we all know that they will not let the side down as they are merit selections. Makhaya Ntini has been the default example of how well carefully managed transformation decisions based on the correct criteria can work. He is not a special case. Those results can be reproduced regularly but it must start in the provinces.
26 Oct 2009, 14:33 pm
Don’t really get the message from this article, Keo and I also disagree on most comments, notably :
1) How can you compare Floors Bok performances with those of
Tybilika, Lobberts & Shimange ? Floors was EXCELLENT in the only test he played at Twickenham in the season where he was voted best Currie Cup player of the year (or joint best player or something like that, I seem to recall).
2) Yes, to select Maku ahead of Kuun would be diabolical, but you’re telling me you would select Kuun ? He won’t be playing hooker even in his team next year !
3) “Juan de Jongh is a player of the mould of Adi Jakobs” ? So what ? It is going to be a 37-player touring squad, so why not select both of them ?
And, let’s face it, PDV HAS TO MAKE some selections to please politicians for the fringe touring players.
Let’s wait which ones he’s going to make before criticize him, please.
With his selections and the players we are blessed to have we are number one in the Ranking as well as Tri-nations Champs, with a very remarkable 5 out of 6, don’t forget it.
26 Oct 2009, 14:34 pm
#49 yes sghiba, spot on
26 Oct 2009, 14:45 pm
#45 Pearl Rose: Out of all your “cut-n-paste’s” this has to be my favourite. Pearl are you the historian of the site?
It’s interesting to see that a lot of the players in that line up actually kicked on.
The comments were also interesting, some calling for PDV to be coach of the senior boks back then….nice one.
26 Oct 2009, 14:46 pm
#48 mozez22: LOL….I see the Cheetahs getting the better of the scrums….Bulls will pinch a couple of there lineouts though…Brussow will cause chaos…but ultimately the class of the bulls…8…9 10 and 13 will prove the difference.
26 Oct 2009, 14:46 pm
13 is 12…sorry
26 Oct 2009, 14:52 pm
#49 Sghibha: well said, nothing more nothing less…
Dumb Supporter, refer to Sghiba’s post, and while you’re at it tell me of a time, if ever when white bloggers had to comment if the selection of jaco van der westhuizen to the bok team @ flyhalf reflected on the abilities or lack thereof of white people in this country and if it was how they wanted to be selected.
26 Oct 2009, 14:55 pm
we live in south africa. there will always be disputes about race, politics and quota. I am a big supporter of transformation programs, but I am definetely not a supporter of the way it is implemented.
The whole purpose of transformation is development. Development in youth is misguided by people “up there” twisted way of including quotas in the system. That will not change for as long as the ones in charge have a mind shift as to how to truely develop our youth.
Bottom line is that politics should stay out of sport! Sport is the one thing where people should be able to express themselves,live it out as good as they desire to, and excell in excellence!
Ricky should not be in the squad purely based on performance he shouldn’t. We all know he can “maak die pap aan”, and he does have talent, no one will deny that. But he receives a paycheck and all the incentives that the Boks do,and therefore falls into this comfort zone where he need not to perform well, prove something or put his body on the line to be in the squad. Lets take an example Francois Hougaard, I am not saying he should be in the squad, I just want to prove my point. week in and week out he learns, you can see in his physical condition he trains hard, he goes in hard, lookoing for work. because he knows he is in the queue, but that makes him be better! Why must young talent be lost, because Ricky gets thrown in everytime.
Same goes for Chilliboy. He is an great ambassador for this country, good leader and an awesome spokesperson with great diccipline in still training and eating right, that I will always say But because he is always in the squad (“comfort zone”), he will not move to get game time with another union being the 2nd choice at the Bulls. This in unfair in comparison with any other player, making career, even life changes in order to get game time, and actually play rugby in order to wear the green and gold.
I can go on with names of players falling in this comfort zone with great talent going to waste:
Chilli – Tiaan Liebenberg, Adriaan Strauss
Ricky – Jano vermaak (injured right now), Francois Hougaard
Ryan Kankowski – Ashley Johnston (he actually takes the ball forward)
Adrian Jacobs – Juan de Jongh, Wynand Olivier
Danie Rossouw – Willem Alberts(covering for loose forward and Lock), Jean Deysel
Jannie Du Plessis – WP Nel, Wian Du Preez (if beast needed a rest period)
Jp Pieterse – Lionel Mapoe
Don’t put players in the bok team, just because they are white/black/experience. Focus on the best 15 on pure talent!
Give these boys a go. Maybe they will prove you wrong.
I just feel, that these guys, they must be shaken up a bit. Give someone the chance that will risk so much more to wear that jersey!
26 Oct 2009, 14:57 pm
so Keo, I was reading this article and giving a nod every now and then … that was up until I read that bile about Pietersen and that old guy being our best fullbacks.
That was it article spoilt. What about Kirchner? What about JLP at 15? Come on I can think oh dozens better than mr pension and the WP hobbit.
26 Oct 2009, 14:58 pm
#49 Sghibha:
the ndungane twins should not have been selected, they are not springbok material, never have been, perhaps in the old days when window-dressing was appropriate, but there are far better wings today imo.
Its all about excellence at the top, should it be given or earned?
26 Oct 2009, 15:01 pm
#56 johnny10: hey we’re getting more first five-eigths on the blog!
I wish there were more vociferous people like yourself during the previous dispensation, then south africa wouldn’t be currently burdened with “transformation” issues …
26 Oct 2009, 15:08 pm
Can only be in SA….J Smit now getting the brunt so he gets asked to move back to 2….
SA S solution…convert a loosehead to tighthead….
Aiii…what can i say….
Ruan a 9 that hates 10 so they play him at 15….
Frans a wannabe at 10 ..moved to 12 where he excels…then to 15….to France…back at 12….
Fok….
26 Oct 2009, 15:09 pm
#50 jci: Agreed
26 Oct 2009, 15:10 pm
Next it will be habana at 13…Ruan at 10…M Steyn at 15….Heinke at 3….
Why not just ricky at 5….get Heinke and Beast to gooi him 10 fooyt in the bloody air!!
Jeez…i hate playing okes out of position…
26 Oct 2009, 15:12 pm
as for justin harrisson for stormers or lions…heres hoping its the lions!!!
Dont want that maljan here!!
26 Oct 2009, 15:18 pm
At the end of the day, only 2 colours matter. And that’s green and gold
26 Oct 2009, 15:18 pm
#63 grant10: Thanks but no thanks we don’t want him either. By the sound of things League in Aus should be his next destination.
26 Oct 2009, 15:19 pm
#60 grant10: Oh get over yourself. Players must learn to fit into the team.
J Smit far from the best 2 in the country, all experienced 3s are gone and don’t need to be as mobile so J Smit to develop in this position rather than a youngster like WP Nel. Obviously a great choice.
If Ruan wants to play 9 and only 9 he can stay at home and never see a bok jersey again. No experienced 15s so give him a chance and he can cover 10 (no other 10s but Steyn), put a specialist scrummie on bench.
Frans wanted to be a 10 – moron. Wouldn’t make bok side. 12 – JdV and WO better. He can be a brilliant 15, should have moved to 15 when Percy went to CT – finally moves to 15, excels and then goes overseas for 3 year contract – moron.
I’m sick of everyone feeling sorry for these over-indulged players. John Smit is a great example of how a Springbok should behave – he knows the jersey is a privilege and is willing to do anything to keep wearing one. What a legend. If Larkham had been a Pu$$y like Ruan and Francois, we may only have seen him in a couple of tests at 15.
26 Oct 2009, 15:20 pm
#58 cab: Agree Cabbie, Mapoe and Mvovo come to mind. For me Mvovo should have carried on playing for the Sharks when Odwa came back. Mvovo for me was playing far better than Odwa.
26 Oct 2009, 15:22 pm
#62 grant10:
“Jeez…i hate playing okes out of position…”
Don’t worry, nobody’s asking you to, that’s PdeVs problem.
26 Oct 2009, 15:22 pm
Sharks paid the price for shunting players from pillar to post…
26 Oct 2009, 15:23 pm
#11 Julius:
you smoking your socks? guthro at tighthead? lobberts in for bakkies? no spies or juan? blignaut? francis? adi? never never never!!! not in 2011.
26 Oct 2009, 15:23 pm
#68 David: Ja…true!!!
Feel better now…
But will be back for a 100 apologies when Smit back at 2….thats for sure…..Farkin smilies!!
26 Oct 2009, 15:23 pm
#11 Julius:
and where’s bissi?
26 Oct 2009, 15:24 pm
#63 grant10:
Yeah, we’ve already got our yellow card quota in Schalk.
26 Oct 2009, 15:25 pm
This Harrisson fellow the nutter who had a full verbal racist attack on a Lion if i remember…leave him to play for Melbourne….dont need more foreighners clogging up our systems….
26 Oct 2009, 15:26 pm
#62 grant10: If we listened to you; Spies would still be playing Vodacom rugby on the wing, Larkham would have been a backup wallaby player, Bismarck would still be on the bench, Habannah would be a centre for Griquas, Beast would be playing for Boland as a flank and Lomu would have made an average loose forward. So open your eyes and your mind.
26 Oct 2009, 15:26 pm
#73 David: He was a crazy sod that Harrisson…dirty bugger too….
Bloody good player though!
26 Oct 2009, 15:27 pm
#62 grant10: Maybe we’ll see Bekker at 10 and kicking for poles
cheer up, we’ve got all the cups
26 Oct 2009, 15:28 pm
#73 David: and Sereli and Hilton
haven’t we exceeded our quota?
26 Oct 2009, 15:28 pm
#75 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Grumpy because the sharks front row got made to look like a bunch of ladies…and Brussow won all the ball??
Dont blame me Mr Grumpy…i told you J Smit couldnt scrum.
26 Oct 2009, 15:31 pm
#78 SpringbokSarah:
They’re Schalks subtitutes when Schalk’s not available. Alistair just forgot that, in his excitement, when he brought Sireli on.
26 Oct 2009, 15:34 pm
#52 Jozi: no i’m not a historian, just a fascinated blogger that is all.
26 Oct 2009, 15:35 pm
#81 Pearl Rose: Aaaahhh…I see.
26 Oct 2009, 15:35 pm
#49 Sghibha: Thanks. Interesting read. I’m guessing that when a player is earmarked with high potential without having performance to base that on, it becomes contentious.
Many people hated Jake for some of his (white) selections. Had there been colour involved, it would probably have escalated into a racist-thing.
#55 Transformation: Don’t really understand what you are saying. Just wanted to hear the opinion of someone who sees the issue from another point of view.
26 Oct 2009, 15:38 pm
#79 grant10: Woodcock, Sheridan and Jones in 1 year? Well look if J Smit can’t scrum, then you have to look at the old wives tale of building a side round a 3, cause last time I checked the boks had their best year in ages, with Smit at 3. Maybe PdV knows that if you want to hide a non-playing captain TH is the best place to do it. (All said with tongue in cheek, I’m just trying to think like you)
26 Oct 2009, 15:40 pm
#57 RedLion:
you honestly think kirchner is better than terblanche?
26 Oct 2009, 15:42 pm
#84 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): LOL…Thank heavens that was tongue in cheek…i almost fell off my chair!!!
26 Oct 2009, 15:43 pm
#86 grant10: So if you need a good 3 to be succesful, surely Smit is a good 3?
26 Oct 2009, 15:49 pm
#83 Dumb Supporter: in any case, i was just trying to show you how patronising the question you asked was…i mean really.
26 Oct 2009, 15:49 pm
#86 grant10: Also do me a favour and pick YOUR bok 15 without anyone out of position (and obviously no overseas based players).
26 Oct 2009, 15:49 pm
#85 iamyourfather:
Stefan is retiring at the end of next year and has also stated he wants less game time. Not exactly an investment in the future, is he?
26 Oct 2009, 15:54 pm
#87 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): KAK 3…he cant do the primary job of a 3…great 2 though….
26 Oct 2009, 15:55 pm
#88 Transformation:
that post came out a bit ***..lol
26 Oct 2009, 15:56 pm
#80 David: roflmao
26 Oct 2009, 16:00 pm
#89 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Okay….then yours hey
15 Kirchner
14 JPP
11 HABANA
13 J FOURIE
12 W OLIVIER
10 M STEYN
9 FDP
8 SPIES
7 SCHALK
6 BRUSSOW
5 MATFIELD
4 BAKKIES
3 WP NEL
2 J SMIT#
1 BEAST
16bissy
17 d rossow
18w du preez
A Bekker
20 Januarie
21 j de jongh
22 J Pietersen
26 Oct 2009, 16:02 pm
#91 grant10: Well then is a good 3 not necessary in international rugby? How did we win 5 from 6 3N games with a TH who can’t scrum?
26 Oct 2009, 16:04 pm
#95 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): 15players….not 1….
Of course we a great team….just cant scrum lekker…we get the scrum right we will retain the WC…
26 Oct 2009, 16:04 pm
#94 grant10: I asked for 15! And Habanna, Beast and Spies are being played out of position. Mine is:
15 Ruan
14 JPP
11 HABANA
13 J FOURIE
12 W OLIVIER
10 M STEYN
9 FDP
8 SPIES
7 SCHALK (Smith when fit)
6 BRUSSOW
5 MATFIELD
4 BAKKIES
3 J SMIT#
2 Bismarck
1 BEAST
26 Oct 2009, 16:06 pm
#92 charo: trust you to be the ***-dar on the blog! What are u smoking?
26 Oct 2009, 16:11 pm
#97 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Ruan at 15, are you a NUTTER!!!?
J Smit at 3…are you bloody insane!!!??
Chase ruan to europe…like frans….
As for j smit at 3…suggest you go visit a kopdoktor….and say goodbye to any chance of a super 14…
26 Oct 2009, 16:12 pm
#97 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): go check ‘we talk rugby ‘ site….times they are a changing…
26 Oct 2009, 16:17 pm
#99 grant10: I repeat: I asked for 15! And Habanna, Beast and Spies are being played out of position. So pick your side.
26 Oct 2009, 16:18 pm
#49 Sghibha:
Great post.
Said all that needs to be said.
Logical,analytical,contextually correct.
26 Oct 2009, 16:21 pm
#101 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Huh….Spies at 8…Habana at 11 and Beast at 1….so…will do again…just the starting team if i was coach…and if no injuries and no overseas players….
15 Kirchner
14JPP
11 HABANA
13 J Fourie
12 W OLIVIER
10 M STEYN
9 FDP
8 SPIES
7 SCHALK [ J SMITH IF FIT ]
6 BRUSSOW
5MATFIELD
4 BAKKIES
3 WP NEL
2 J SMIT
1 BEAST
26 Oct 2009, 16:25 pm
GRANT10 : The 22 you previously selected contained no-one who could play 10 if Morne got injured.
26 Oct 2009, 16:27 pm
ALSO- Schalk is an openside flanker. You always state you see him as a blindside, but he is not that. So you have in fact selected a player out of position despite your firm belief this should not happen.
26 Oct 2009, 16:28 pm
#103 grant10: Habannah started his career at 13. Beast started his career at flank and at U19 level Spies played wing, so using YOUR logic, you’ll have to pick someone else.
26 Oct 2009, 16:28 pm
AlSO- Smit playing at 2 in the first place was a result of being played out of position. As someone (sorry can’t remember who) said earlier in this blog, many legends of the game wouldn’t have been born had they not been played out of position.
26 Oct 2009, 16:29 pm
#103 grant10: Spies made his Super 12 debut on the wing against the Brumbies, becoming the youngest player ever to represent the Bulls.
26 Oct 2009, 16:29 pm
#104 schalla: yes….P Grant would\need a spot on becch….selecting while making a living…tough here…LOL
26 Oct 2009, 16:30 pm
#107 schalla: That was me, but Grant10 just sticks his head back in the sand!
26 Oct 2009, 16:30 pm
#105 schalla: Schalk an opensider….you kidding me…never ever never….even stormers moving him…..no…its 7 …or bench!!
26 Oct 2009, 16:32 pm
My point is do not play players out of position at TEST LEVEL….or if they dont buy in.
No problems with trying things out….but not at the highest level….
Clear??
26 Oct 2009, 16:34 pm
Keo is this a trend you are developing here? that everytime Peter de Villiers is about to select a team you submit a “colour article” to Peter Bruce?
Will PdV stay colour blind?
In 2008 Peter de Villiers picked his side on merit and he needs to persist with this policy despite injuries to several non-white players, writes Keo in Business Day.
Post-election analysis concluded that 15 years after democracy there was still too much emphasis on race in determining voter allegiance. I fear race will be as contentious an issue when Springbok coach Peter de Villiers names his first match 22 for the British and Irish Lions series.
Just six months ago, De Villiers was wondering what all the fuss about non-white selection was. He confidently picked coloured and black players because they were the best in their positions — consistently selecting six in his national starting XV.
South African rugby, with a non-white coach and good non-white representation entirely merited on ability, was in a racial state of calm. Team selection discussion focused on player ability, not pigmentation. It was bliss.
It won’t be the case in a few weeks. Conrad Jantjes, last season’s first-choice Bok fullback, is out with an injury. Adi Jacobs, the preferred option at outside centre, is in doubt and Ricky Januarie, at scrumhalf, can’t command a start with the sad sack Stormers.
If De Villiers is to play Bok captain John Smit at tighthead prop it will be at the expense of Zimbabwean import Brian Mujati. There is no black or coloured loose-forward good enough to make the team and there is no challenger to the lock duo of Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha. Gurthro Steenkamp, at loosehead prop, is the best of the SA-based loose-head contenders, but his is a career plagued by injury and it will be a nervous watch to see if he makes it through the next month of the Super 14.
Once again, as was custom before De Villiers’s appointment, we are left with definite black/coloured representation, being limited to numbers 11 and 14. Frans Steyn, in the absence of Jantjes, should be the starting fullback and Jacobs’s possible unavailability would scupper De Villiers’s intention to play centre Jaque Fourie at fullback.
De Villiers is spoilt for choice on the wing with JP Pietersen, the Ndungane twins, Tonderai Chavhanga, Bryan Habana and Jongi Nokwe all having represented the Springboks.
If De Villiers selected just two non-white wings and Steenkamp as his only non-white forward, would it be acceptable? Politicians would say no, but who do they represent and why should they be given column inches every time they disapprove of a national squad selection?
Last year, De Villiers picked the best players without prejudice. Fortunately for him, the core of his best non-white players were fit. The challenge now is for De Villiers to continue to select the best side, regardless of colour, and herein lays the test of true transformation within our rugby. Will De Villiers be strong enough in his belief in selecting the strongest XV or will he be influenced by racial numbers for fear of being accused of not transforming the game?
South African rugby, especially in Super Rugby, has made enormous strides in creating opportunities for black and coloured players, the majority of whom have shown themselves as the best in their respective positions. That is transformation.
I believe the South African game is transforming and the extent of that transformation should be measured in the changes in the Super 14 and Currie Cup. Counting the number of black, white and coloured players should not be an issue at a national level, where being the best has to be the only criterion for selection.
De Villiers, in 2008, could not once be accused of not picking on merit. There were contentious selections, like Jacobs instead of Fourie, but it was based on the coach’s belief in rugby ability.
Can he be as consistent when the non-white numbers are not there because of injury and loss of form? If he isn’t, it will be a regression.
De Villiers has a responsibility to select on merit, but the South African rugby media has as big a responsibility to respect that right of any national coach, and to focus on the rugby merits of those chosen to beat the Lions.
There are many dial-a-quote politicians, retired rugby players and administrators who will give a sensational sound bite based on numbers and the colour of those numbers. They have to be ignored. Too many trees have been lost in giving these guys a platform.
Transformation will have passed a test if the only cross-examination of De Villiers’s selection is confined to rugby.
This entry was posted on Monday, May 4th, 2009 at 1:40 pm and is filed under Lions Tour, Springboks.
26 Oct 2009, 16:35 pm
#112 grant10: Larkham and Habanah did okay, but I guess that was the wrong decision too. Its easy to justify decisions in hindsight, but the fact is players have succeeded out of position for years. Cheers now, i hope my point is proven.
26 Oct 2009, 16:39 pm
#114 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Proven!!!
Bloody hell….never!
And when J Smit moved from 3 i am collecting a 6 pack of windhoek lager.
26 Oct 2009, 16:41 pm
GRANT10: I feel that people view Schalks ability at openside a bit harshly. I guess we’re all fickle fans in the end but the Boks problems between 04-07 had more to do with the inept backs than any of Schalks shortcomings. In fact we really struggled (2006) without him there.
If you take the All Blacks as the benchmark in those years, Schalk played them home and away in 04 and 05, as well as at home in 07. They won at home in 04 and 05 and lost away in the dying moments in those years. Schalks performance at openside at Newlands in 05 showed an important element to openside play (not fetching) but pressuring the opposite flyhalf. He made Carter look ordinary that day.
At home in 07 they lost in the dying minutes at Kings Park.
Suffice to say, Schalk let no-one down in his displays at openside and while it is a blessing to have a fetcher of Brussows ability this should in no way detract from Schalks feats on the field.
P.S could someone please show a statistic on Schalks first class games : yellow card ratio. Would make for interesting reading.
26 Oct 2009, 16:44 pm
#116 schalla: Schalk only really had one poor test season as an openside and that was last season when refs tightened up on going off feet at breakdown and hands in the ruck. From 2004-2007 he was one of the very best opensides and players in the world. The new tackle law favours a Brussow type player now however.
26 Oct 2009, 16:49 pm
#116 schalla: 1st class games defined how?
26 Oct 2009, 16:49 pm
#116 schalla: what stats, 3 tackles in 60 minutes against the b&i lions, that is after getting sin-binned in the 1st minute? You’re right he nearly had every rugby loving south african breaking their tvs in fits of rage! Schalk has been hondk@k for most of this year, deal with it.
26 Oct 2009, 16:50 pm
BIG HIT : True. On a closer-to-home note (for you) if Flood, Cipriani and Wilkinson are fit, who’d you pick as your 10? Whats the consensus that end of the pond about Wilkinsons ability to still cut it at Test level?
26 Oct 2009, 16:52 pm
#120 schalla: Wilkinson is still the best, Cipriani the most naturally talented runner and Flood is a mix of the two but not as good at running as Cips or kicking as Wilko.
Wilkinson can still cut it in my opinion but we’re still going to get pumped by Aus, NZ and maybe Argentina if we’re unlucky.
26 Oct 2009, 16:53 pm
SPRINGBOKSARAH : Currie Cup, Super 14, Springbok matches = first class.
TRANSFORMATION : With all due respect you seem to not acknowledge the ability of the player in question, which despite being your right wreaks (sp?) of rugby ignorance. One bad game does not a career make. For my own curiosity, which players do you rate?
26 Oct 2009, 16:53 pm
#119 Transformation: he’s also been injured a lot this year
26 Oct 2009, 16:54 pm
#122 schalla: I’ll see what I can do
26 Oct 2009, 16:55 pm
BIG HIT : If the papers are to be believed, Aus might be there for the taking. Agreed NZ might present a mountain too high for Eng given injury difficulties.
26 Oct 2009, 16:57 pm
#121 Big Hit:
you think NZ will beat you?
26 Oct 2009, 16:57 pm
#88 Transformation: This clearly shows the great devide that exists.
Most white guys on the forum cannot understand how rugby supporters can support the quota system. They have given their opinions a million times. It is well-known.
In my view, a black person might be able to articulate why the quota system has merit in such a way that those same white supporters might just change their opinion a fraction. I think this is exactly what Sghibha at #49.
If this is patronising to you, you are missing the point.
26 Oct 2009, 16:58 pm
#125 schalla: If we beat Aus and Arg we can call it a very successful Autumn, if we beat NZ too we can call it a minor miracle. We’re not in good shape and that’s just the truth. Fearful of this series to be honest.
26 Oct 2009, 16:59 pm
#126 cab: absolutely, our tight five is decimated by injury.
26 Oct 2009, 17:01 pm
BIG HIT : I wonder with Cipriani if it’s a case similar to Derrick Hougaard where because of his prodigious talent at a young age he was rushed in to the national side and never really found the level.
I have a friend at Varsity who’s from Eng and played Schoolboy rugby with Danny and reckons even at an elite youth level he stoodout by miles and was virtually guarenteed a place in the Eng side once he came of age.
26 Oct 2009, 17:03 pm
#130 schalla: he was guaranteed a place, he won the 10 shirt from Wilko in 2008 and put in a great performance against Ireland, but then he shattered his ankle and had 6 metal pins put in and hasn’t been the same player since. Hopefully he’ll bounce back in time but it’s not looking good, he’s out again with a knee injury.
26 Oct 2009, 17:04 pm
#129 Big Hit:
have to agree this looks like one of the weakest ABs teams to tour since about 1983 but there starting 15 is still not to shabby any team that can beat aus by 30 points will give us problems. We can hope that they get a few injuries to test there depth but I am sure woodcock and the like are licking there lips at our front row. Aussie are beatable but Jonny will have to be on fire.
26 Oct 2009, 17:05 pm
BIG HIT : I think Martin Johnson needs to do a Jake White rebuilding job here and instill confidence in the side by first making their home ground a fortress. If visiting sides can fear Twickenham once more than he will have gone a long way to restoring Eng back to their rightful place in the top 5.
26 Oct 2009, 17:05 pm
#127 Dumb Supporter:there’s no great divide, would YOU want to be selected for political reasons, yes or no?
#122 schalla: with all due respect you sound like a schalk burger sycophant, unfortunately for you, not all of us are. Jerry Collins was a class loosie for the all blacks, when he didn’t perform he got dropped. At the moment heinrich is playing better than schalk, even to your biased mind that should be clear, so i don’t get the big song & dance about schalk…
26 Oct 2009, 17:11 pm
TRANSFORMATION : Agreed 100% Brussow’s current form is better. What leaves a sour taste in my mouth is people intimating Schalk is and always has been a liability for teams he has played for when that is far from being true.
Im happy to acknowledge he’s behind Brussow in the line but wish people wouldnt bash him when hes been extremely loyal to WP and SA rugby and believe me he has had some MASSIVE offers from overseas.
26 Oct 2009, 17:11 pm
#116 schalla: I believe Schalk has been poor for a long time now….stormers and wp have seen that last 2 seasons…also think we were duped by aussies and kiwis into believing schalk was a opensider…when in fact they feasted at the breakdown as we refused to play the best opensider in SA …Luke Watson…since 2006.
Sorry…nothing personal…but Schalk has to reinvent himself at 7…or else he is a goner ….
Note…only my opinion
26 Oct 2009, 17:11 pm
#133 schalla: yeah he’s starting from scratch again, it’s going to be a long road with a lot of bumps.
#132 west: I don’t think Jonny will last these 3 tests, there will be so much defending to do and he won’t shirk a tackle on backs or forwards and will inevitably end up injured. If we can beat Oz it would be an achievement of note and something to build on.
26 Oct 2009, 17:13 pm
#135 schalla: Schalk is not behind Brussow….he is behind J Smith
26 Oct 2009, 17:14 pm
wp and stormers….read rassie…has made it clear Schalk will be considered at 7 or 8…not as openside
26 Oct 2009, 17:18 pm
GRANT10 : LOL at “Schalk is behind Smith not Brussow”. Witty. So at Bok level who’s backup 6?
26 Oct 2009, 17:18 pm
I agree but as an English supporter we seem to have been rebuilding since 2003. I just want a win I tire of all the promising results and we are building to the next world cup talk to me thats loser talk. Yes we did well at the 07 world cup but it had nothing to do with the 4 shambolic years before that the players took over the coaching of the team and we got a bit of luck.
I like NZ and the boks attitude its win every test match not just rebuild ( we had this under woodward) for the next cup. Whats the point of having to sit through 4 years poor results for the supporters then getting a second place at the world cup nobody cares who gets second! As a fan I would much rather have an 80% win ratio over the next three years and watch my team beat the Sh teams than a 50% win ratio and a placing at the world cup. I hope Johnson doesnt fall into this rubbish hes to good a man
26 Oct 2009, 17:18 pm
Schalk Cards:
For WP and Stormers Schalk has played 86 games, received 16 yellow cards and 3 red
For the Sprinboks Schalk has played 53 games received 13 yellow cards and 2 red
according to SA Rugby
26 Oct 2009, 17:19 pm
#134 Transformation: I’m white. My opinion doesn’t count.
26 Oct 2009, 17:20 pm
#142 SpringbokSarah:
Games: Cards
139: 34
26 Oct 2009, 17:21 pm
#143 Dumb Supporter: care to explain?
26 Oct 2009, 17:28 pm
“Pleasing the politicians” I suppose refer to what PdV, according to keo, has to do.
But I think if you’ve been reading this site for the last while – well since Winning Ways was created – then this site could well be renamed ” Pleasing Winning Ways.co.za”
26 Oct 2009, 17:33 pm
#146 Sheriff: why?
26 Oct 2009, 17:34 pm
#135 schalla:all well & good then…something that you as a schalk idoliser might want to familiarise yourself with is the idea that your idol will have to adapt the way he plays if he is to compete with players like brussow or even stegmann. The time where the springboks went into Test matches without players that can compete on the deck is gone…the blue bulls know that, the cheetahs know that, it seems like only the stormers & sharks that are resisting change.
26 Oct 2009, 17:34 pm
#142 SpringbokSarah: It takes me a friggen year to get those stats… a little appreciation would be nice
26 Oct 2009, 17:35 pm
#140 schalla:
That’s an interesting question that’s made more complex by the difference between the specialist backup if Brussow is injured, and the bench backup who needs to be more position versatile.
I think Schalk will be the bench backup as he will cover 6 & 7 for Smith and Brussow. I think we’re also going to have to start blooding another specialist 6, just in case. With the current setup PdeV has started to get a good WC squad mix.
26 Oct 2009, 17:37 pm
#147 SpringbokSarah:
Cause thats what keo has to do.
He has to please the winning ways blokes. Point is that we all have to do things sometimes that we dont like or are not entirely comfortable with.
Im saying this site is no exception. They too have to please others.
26 Oct 2009, 17:38 pm
I still think the Kiwis are a great team, they’re the only side that can go anywhere and their fans virtually expect a win, even in france, whereas we have not beaten the frogs in ages.
26 Oct 2009, 17:41 pm
#151 Sheriff: why do they have to please those guys though?
26 Oct 2009, 17:45 pm
#140 schalla: good question …i have an opinion [ of course ]….but it seems its not cut and dried.
26 Oct 2009, 17:56 pm
SPRINGBOKSARAH : THANKS FOR THE STATS!!! lol must have been a pain to get. I’d be working well in to next year to collate that info. good effort and cheers.
By the way I must admit I didn’t think/know the ratio was quite that high. I guess with the ultra physical players (Schalk, Bakkies..) you will tend to see a slightly high-ish ratio. My criticism of Schalk is he goes off his feet too easily when he doesnt have the ball in his hands. Other than that a freak of a player and a real gentleman to boot too ( ask Luke Fitzgerald
)
26 Oct 2009, 17:58 pm
The launch of my site has been delayed or disrupted by persons trying to access rugby-torque dot com at least 500 times per day.
Patience is a virtue.
26 Oct 2009, 17:59 pm
GRANT10 : I think I know what your opinion is ( Luke Watson ) and I tend to agree with it. Despite being a Schalk idoliser/whatever else transformation called me, I must say I rate Luke quite highly.
I just want to put this out there. As Dewald Potgeiter is only 90 odd kilos…could he be groomed as the backup 6?
26 Oct 2009, 18:00 pm
#153 SpringbokSarah:
Cannot be specific, but generally its a rand and cents issue.
Either directly or indirectly.
26 Oct 2009, 18:05 pm
#117 Big Hit: ive been reading this on going debate about schalk at open side and blindside and imo he has proven he can be highly effective at 6 7 or 8 -if we condem players to one position as well we may never see any dynamics in the game -maybe its not about where hes playing but rather who hes playing alongside -for example 6.rossouw 7.smith 8.spies wouldnt work ,6.burger 7.smith 8.spies has worked -i dont believe that u can rule out burger as cover for openside ,blindside or 8th man -but i think that just by looking at the dynamics of the combonations and certain situations of players that 6.brussouw 7.burger/smith 8.spies works a litle bit better than 6.burger 7.smith 8.spies so maybe we need to consider that its who they play alongside rather than where they play -morne steyns key to succes is having his team mate with him they know eachoter better than most do-brussow smth another example
26 Oct 2009, 18:06 pm
SPRINGBOKSARAH and SHERIFF : I think Keo given that he writes for so many publications (this website, SA Rugby, Bsuiness Day) is given a percentage commission from Winning Ways because of how widely spread the Mark Keohane Gospel is
.
Keo trumpets jake > More business for Winning Way > Higher % comission for Keo.
26 Oct 2009, 18:09 pm
Whether you like it or not, there is space for another player in this industry.
2.3% of the motivation behind this is to bring an end to constant hostile references to “Voldy” and “RT”
That’s right, that will be no more. I think people will focus their energy on providing their customers with the best possible experience. In other words, at the end of the day the consumer is the winner.
26 Oct 2009, 18:11 pm
#156 Sheriff:
Do you think the AWB is onto you?
26 Oct 2009, 18:11 pm
#160 schalla:
I have no issues with people tryin’ to earn a living.
Its the right thing to do. But what we must guard against, is that we do it at another’s expense. We should aim for win-win scenarios.
26 Oct 2009, 18:13 pm
#159 80srovers:
I made a similar point a little earlier today. The trouble is that it’s only after the combos have been tried can you see if they actually work. Whether the whole is bigger than the parts, in other words.
26 Oct 2009, 18:16 pm
#160 schalla:
Yes, I can see someone reading Keo.co.za or BD and thinking “Ah, I must give this Jake fellow a ring and see if he can help my S14 franchise”.
26 Oct 2009, 18:16 pm
#162 David:
I know there is software that can create hits (literally thousands) to affect the site response adversely.
But people will do well to think of it this way: just because there are Shoprite-Checkers and PnP does not mean that Woolies cannot gain market share. In time Woolies will prob take some of the others market share thru innovation and excellent customer care.
26 Oct 2009, 18:18 pm
Its the DAWN of a new era.
26 Oct 2009, 18:22 pm
#164 David:
True, it is all about combo’s.
Rassie has said he will probably play Schalk at 8 as they need a guy who can handle the ball at the back of the scrum. He also said that at WP /Stormers they do not need a specialist opensider and that they coach and practice for the whole team to contest at the breakdown.
So therefore the move to no 8 for Schalk does not have any relevance as to whether Rassie thinks he is a good opensider or not.
26 Oct 2009, 18:23 pm
#167 Sheriff:
As oppose to “The Return of the Jeddie”?
26 Oct 2009, 18:24 pm
#166 Sheriff:
No, Woollies will only gain market share because Raymond Ackerman is retiring
26 Oct 2009, 18:25 pm
#169 David:
No more pain, no more suffering, in short: a better life for all…
26 Oct 2009, 18:27 pm
#170 Robzim:
Im sure he will appoint another good man in his place, perhaps another ACKER-man.
26 Oct 2009, 18:28 pm
#168 Robzim:
I think it’s a bit of wishfull thinking, to be honest. Your openside has the specific role of following the ball, so in theory he should be the first to the breakdown point. I don’t know what roles Rassie sees for his 3 loosies, so it’s difficult to understand his specific tactics regarding them.
26 Oct 2009, 18:28 pm
#155 schalla: sara provided you with the stats now you’re making excuses about physicality…laughable…
26 Oct 2009, 18:29 pm
#171 Sheriff:
How do you juggle the roles of lawman and priest?
26 Oct 2009, 18:31 pm
#175 David:
Punish them severely and then grant forgiveness.
26 Oct 2009, 18:33 pm
I wonder whether carol will blog there by me as well…
I guess only time will tell…
26 Oct 2009, 18:33 pm
#176 Sheriff:
26 Oct 2009, 18:34 pm
TRANSFORMATION : Pal the first thing I said is I didnt realise the ratio was so high. I ventured that a possible reason for Schalk and Bakkies and other players in that moulds high yellow card ratio was due to their over zealous physicality. Id rather have that than a player like say Solly Tybilika who arrived at the breakdown quickfast and did nothing.
26 Oct 2009, 18:41 pm
#177 Sheriff:
I doubt if she’ll pass your pencil test.
26 Oct 2009, 18:47 pm
#180 David:
A compelling motivation written in pencil should suffice
26 Oct 2009, 18:50 pm
I’m confused. Is Sheriff starting his own blog? What’s the target audience?
26 Oct 2009, 18:51 pm
Im confident we will be able to achieve a more even spread of power:
W= economic power
B= political power
C= the key one, rugby power
26 Oct 2009, 18:54 pm
#179 schalla: i’m glad sarah stats made for interesting reading as you intimated in an initial post…ha ha ha…
26 Oct 2009, 18:56 pm
sheriff i asked the other day whether the “torque” in the name of your new venture meant that bloggers could have discussions about “kilowatts” “dropped suspensions” “free flow” and the like?
26 Oct 2009, 18:57 pm
#182 schalla:
I assume anyone who’s bored, pissed off or insulted by all the other rugby blogs and sees Sherriff as the new saviour who’ll lead them to the promised land. A sort of rugby bloggers nirvana.
26 Oct 2009, 18:59 pm
errr I’m failing to see what’s so funny TRANSFORMATION. They did make for interesting reading and I immediately pointed out that I was suprised at how high the ratio was. Having pointed this out and ventured a possible explanation as to why that is, you seem to have run out of something to say in your anti Schalk tirade.Tell me TRANSFORMATION, between 2004 and 2007 who would you have played as your 6?
26 Oct 2009, 18:59 pm
#185 Transformation:
They must link those concepts rugby.
No tinted windows and mags discussions pls
26 Oct 2009, 19:00 pm
The great pretender Solly?
26 Oct 2009, 19:02 pm
#186 David:
It will soon be a “healthy alternative”
26 Oct 2009, 19:03 pm
#186 David: the words sheriff & saviour don’t compute as far as i’m concerned…but that is just me
26 Oct 2009, 19:06 pm
To be fair, I think I have an unfair advantage.
I could learn from the mistakes of those who had gone before me.
For starters, you dont see me leaving this site like a “thief in the night”
26 Oct 2009, 19:09 pm
Someone asked me the other day whether it is a joint venture with Harry the Beachwalker?
Maybe, maybe not…
26 Oct 2009, 19:12 pm
#190 Sheriff:
Do you mean like, orgsnic and gluten free, man?
26 Oct 2009, 19:14 pm
#191 Transformation:
Yes, beware false profits.
26 Oct 2009, 19:15 pm
#194 David:
That should have been “organic”.
26 Oct 2009, 19:19 pm
Boks find a world class 3….stick with the specialist opensider….and get the key players back from overseas prior to the 2011 Super 14….Bobs your aunt.
26 Oct 2009, 19:19 pm
#194 David:
The way nature intended it 2 b
26 Oct 2009, 19:19 pm
#187 schalla: schalk and maybe luke watson…what is laughable is the gung-ho attitude you had when you asked for the stats, in your mind you were convinced schalk was being unfairly labelled as walking yellow card! now that sarah has laced you, you sheepishly offer excuses about overzealous physicality…you’re not the first schalla fan on this site, most of us are…lmao…
26 Oct 2009, 19:21 pm
#157 schalla: Yes….Dewalt is so damn good i reckon he could play at 6….7 or 8…
Personally i reckon he would be a great 8….that oke is superb.
26 Oct 2009, 19:21 pm
People will be allowed to exchange recipes on Torque® from time to time
It will be like the good ol’ days
26 Oct 2009, 19:23 pm
#198 Sheriff:
Are you a closet Capetonian?
26 Oct 2009, 19:24 pm
Sheriff…you one funny oke!!
26 Oct 2009, 19:24 pm
#197 grant10:
26 Oct 2009, 19:25 pm
saying something is interesting does not intimate that I expect to be proven correct rather suggesting that I wait in anticipation of the given information. Seeing as I immediately said “I didnt realise it was that high” I fail to see what your gripe with my posts is.
And I’m not a gung ho Schalk fan. I’m a gung ho fan of anybody who wears the green and gold, whether theyre black, white, pink or anything in between and no matter what their own history (january, willemse) or family history (watson, mujati) may be.
26 Oct 2009, 19:25 pm
#201 Sheriff:
Good god, you’re actually Martha Stewart!
26 Oct 2009, 19:26 pm
#202 David:
Hate to raise this topic but Dawn was convinced that I live in CT.
Talking of which, there’s gonna come a time, an hour when I need to decide whether I will allow her on Torque®
Im not sure if she deserves it…
26 Oct 2009, 19:27 pm
#204 Transformation:
i enjoyed this i hope you do too
“Ell Aye Vee! Eee Are Pee! Double-Oh Ell – Liverpool FC!” Can there be a finer way to start the week for a Liverpool fan than a 2-0 win over Manchester United? Well, yes – if this was next May and the ‘Pool had beaten United 2-0 in the FA Cup final, but that dream will have to wait.
Oh, yes, I am a Liverpool fan – there is no suggestion of objectivity, no ounce of professionalism in me when it comes to that. I have been obsessed since a very young kid in Northern Ireland, when my dad brought home two kit bags, one Liverpool and one Manchester United.
I got the Liverpool one. My brother Brian became a United fan, until years and years of despair and ragging by me forced him to turn to the light side of the Force. As one who covers sport for a living, I can let the beast inside loose when watching Liverpool as I do not have to write about them (er, except for this column, I suppose).
The lot of a professional sports journalist means we must behave in press boxes, note moments of brilliance with a nod and a scribble. You learn to bottle up the emotions, although there are those in the Loftus, Newlands and Absa Stadium press boxes who spray their feelings around like Jenson Button with a Champagne bottle.
On Sunday, my mate Craig Hale, a life-long Liverpool fan thanks to his late dad’s influence, met at the Grand Slam, the sports diner in Dowerglen, where the local branch of the Liverpool supporters club watch their games. It was packed from 1pm and the only space left saw us crammed in beside the main bar.
At the tables near the door, a tall blonde with the legend “Mrs Gerrard” on the back of her replica shirt, spoke to a man who looked nothing like Stevie G, but wanted to be Mr Gerrard soooo badly. With an hour to go, in walked the loud Scouser who is the cheerleader for the supporters club but who seems to know just one song. Liverpool fans outnumbered United and by the time the cameras swung to show Stevie G taking his place in the stands beside the real Mrs Gerrard, you couldn’t move in the place.
An old Manchester United fan from Northern Ireland squeezed in behind me and looked a little stunned as the Slam rocked to the refrain of “You’ll Never Walk Again.” Heck, before Sunday afternoon it looked as thought Liverpool might never win again. The Hansa flowed, the old man behind me called the referee a name that rhymes with banker, but is more polite, and also called him a cheat, which is another word for banker, I believe.
A quick surf on the iPhone and the BlackBerry (yup, a flashy geek, that’s me) revealed Fernando Torres had had a pain-killing injection in his groin to make sure he could play. He certainly didn’t show any signs of pain and his 65th-minute goal transferred his groin pain into the genital area of one Sir Alex Ferguson.
Torres made Rio Ferdinand look as foolish as he did last season, bouncing off the England defender and thundering the ball into the roof of the net. The roof of the Slam almost lifted with the roar from those in the right shade of red.
Jamie Carragher, who has been rubbish all year, was a player reborn, making thundering tackles and cheating with aplomb. His hit on Michael Carrick was iffy and his tackle on Michael Owen perhaps worthy of a red. Yet, he saved the goal and sometimes cheating can be justified if you are a man in red.
Even Lucas, the most overrated Brazilian since Joel Sanatana – and for whom Rafa Benitez has a blind spot similar to that of Safa towards Carlos Alberto Parreira – played well. As the referee played the requisite two days and 14 hours of Fergusion-added- on time David Ngog, another decidedly average player, clinched the win and the Slam went off. The old man behind me shook my hand and smiled.
If anyone was worried the World Cup next year would poorer if Bafana Bafana get knocked out early, perhaps they should have been at the Slam on Sunday. Packed to the rafters, two sets of fans, no trouble.
“You wouldn’t see this is London,” said Craig, who lived there for over a decade. “The Liverpool fans would be at the Sun pub and the United fans at O’Neills. No mixing. This is great.”
Heck, yes, it was. All together now: “Ell Aye Vee! Eee Are Pee! Double-Oh Ell – Liverpool FC!”
26 Oct 2009, 19:28 pm
#203 grant10:
Friendships will be restored on Torque®
26 Oct 2009, 19:28 pm
#205 schalla:
BTW I also reckon Potgieter would make a great 6.
26 Oct 2009, 19:29 pm
GRANT10 : Kankowski is considered too lightweight for 8 and if I’m not mistaken he weighs +- 10 kilos more than Dewalt.
Not too put too much of an emphasis on size but if you weigh less than 100kg in this day and age you have no business in the forwards. Even the “small” Brussow weighs 102 or thereabouts.
26 Oct 2009, 19:29 pm
Losing to Lpool was almost as bad as WP being beaten by the Bulls in that semi…a sickening blow i tell you.
26 Oct 2009, 19:29 pm
#205 schalla: good on you chap…we need more like u on this blog…
26 Oct 2009, 19:30 pm
#209 Sheriff: Is torque the ‘common ground’?
26 Oct 2009, 19:32 pm
#207 Sheriff:
She could be your Mary Magdelene.
I see you claim a trademark for a normal word. Microsoft has taught you well.
26 Oct 2009, 19:32 pm
#211 schalla: Not sure what Dewalt weighs…just know he is an excellent link man….intelligent…very capable at the back of the lineout and tackles like a tiger!!
He can come to the wp any day of the week!
26 Oct 2009, 19:35 pm
#214 grant10:
Yeah, as in shared space, place of consensus.
People will assess and naturally upgrade to Torque®
26 Oct 2009, 19:38 pm
#211 schalla:
He’s 98kg according to the Bulls site and 1.90m. Here’s an interesting quote from the same site.
Do you enjoy playing flank?
I’ve always had a tendency to play towards the ball and I must admit that I really feel part of the game playing at the side of the scrum. I played most of my rugby in the number 8-jersey, but I must admit that I really enjoy my new position.
26 Oct 2009, 19:40 pm
#217 Sheriff: i may pop in and say hi….but only if the site is non exclusive ….having said that…may i please request you ban a few guys ….starting with anyone who doesent believe in specialist opensiders and tightheads….
Please!!
26 Oct 2009, 19:42 pm
#218 David: interesting….David…he could play at 6 if he set his mind to it….
Bok skipper post 2011.
26 Oct 2009, 19:42 pm
TRANSFORMATION : No good on you!!! I didn’t have the faintest idea you were a Liverpool man. I had a Varsity exam today but was up until 4am (as I live in Melbourne) watching the game. I went from the pub to the exam hall….not looking forward to results day that’s for sure.
Speaking of yellow card ratios…whats Nemanja Vidic’s against Liverpool
26 Oct 2009, 19:42 pm
#215 David:
No Dawn will read my site the whole day but will not apply for membership.
Same for WP Till I Die.
If only they understood that Torque® can restore their former glory…
26 Oct 2009, 19:43 pm
I have no problem with the selection of players based on their colour, all I am asking for is a ccoach countability.
In PdV’s 1st season of 2008, we saw the like of Mujati, Conrad Jantje, Jacobs, the Nedungane Bros and January in the starting line up, it was a season where the Boks lost twice to the Wallabies – one test at home – and were handed a 0:19 by the ABs in Newlands.
Came 2009 Test season and a more credible Boks’ selection was in place. Clearly, someone was worried about his job. When the BI Lions figured Adi Jacobs, he was Unceremonially dropped.
26 Oct 2009, 19:45 pm
#223 Hondo:
Should be :
I have no problem with the selection of players based on their colour, all I am asking for if a coach accountability.
In PdV’s 1st season of 2008, we saw the like of Mujati, Conrad Jantje, the Nedungane Bros and January in the starting line up, it was a season where the Boks lost twice to the Wallabies – one test at home – and were handed a 0:19 by the ABs in Newlands.
Came 2009 Test season and a more credible Boks’ selection was in place. Clearly, someone was worried about his job. When the BI Lions figured Addi Jacobs, he was Unceremonially dropped.
26 Oct 2009, 19:47 pm
Adi was the boks best backline player in 2008…he was fantastic….i still think he has an injury….pity because he is so skilful….
26 Oct 2009, 19:49 pm
ALL WP FANS : what’s the consensus regarding Nick Koster’s playing future ; eightman or wing? Looking through some of the loosies we have, theyre all super talented and young too. Schalks 26 and a 50 test veteran, Brussows 23 and Spies is 24. He may be better off on the wing, a Lomu/Tuqiri big type of winger.
Random Comment for the day : wings against Italy ; Mapoe and Spies. Would love to see him on the wing. Would be good with Frans at 12 who throws long cut out passes to the wings to create time/space…im salivating at this thought.
26 Oct 2009, 19:51 pm
#226 schalla: koster has indicated he wants to play wing…and rassie content to let him specialise there
26 Oct 2009, 19:52 pm
#221 schalla: nope i’m no liverpool man i just hate alex ferguson…
26 Oct 2009, 19:53 pm
#228 Transformation: Hate is a terrible word….dislike intensely is better…
Unless its an ex wife or girlfriend….
26 Oct 2009, 19:54 pm
GRANT10 : I am Natal boy and Sharks fan through and through, but Jacobs isnt the answer at 13. He has skill, true ; but he doesnt have a lions heart like a Gio Aplon or a Luke Watson who play bigger than what they are. This is essential in test rugby.
Jacobs effort to stop J-L potgeiter when he intercepted pienaars pass in the semi was woeful. he than made out as though he badly smashed his shoulder. J-L Pottgeiter isn’t a big man and jacobs should have thrown himself in front of him.
With the emergence of Mapoe it might be interesting to see Habana at 13 with Mapoe at 11
26 Oct 2009, 19:54 pm
#221 schalla: vidic i 3 out of 3 against Pool, closely pursued by mascherano on 2 out of 3…lol
26 Oct 2009, 19:55 pm
It’s a pity Duwalt specialised as a forward, with his build, intelligence and distribution skills, he might have been a damn fine inside centre.
26 Oct 2009, 19:56 pm
#231 Transformation:
Isn’t it 4 out of 3, or do you count his 2 yellows as a red?
26 Oct 2009, 19:56 pm
TRANSFORMATION : sorry it’s 5am here and I misread and thought you were saying that YOU were the journalist. Cheers though I did enjoy the piece. Who do you support then??
26 Oct 2009, 19:57 pm
#229 grant10: i dislike him intensely…
26 Oct 2009, 19:57 pm
#230 schalla: Mapoes time will come….dont play okes out of position at the highest level.
Adi has been dissapointing….sad really….13 is J Fouries jersey now….and the next big thing is Juan De Jongh.
Sharks cant scrum boet…thats the hassle…
26 Oct 2009, 19:58 pm
#228 Transformation:
Jealousy is an ugly thing.
26 Oct 2009, 19:59 pm
#225 grant10:
he scored 2 tries at the garbage time against Australia when it didn’t count, he also sent a blatant forward pass to Habana to score against the ABs in the first Test of 2008.
The Wallabies didn’t contest the 3rd Test at Ellis Park because it had no bearing the their Tri Nations’ outcome, they had to beat the ABs at home and in Hong Kong to win it.
26 Oct 2009, 20:00 pm
Mapoe will have his time….dont play okes out of position…Habana not the answer at 13 imo…
Adi has been dissapointing…sad really…13 now is J Fourie jersey….and the next best thing at 13 is juan de jongh…
Sharks problem is there front row cant scrum….same front row= more pain in 2010 super 14.
26 Oct 2009, 20:01 pm
#232 David: a bit like the greatest of them all…bob!!
26 Oct 2009, 20:02 pm
#235 Transformation: LOL
26 Oct 2009, 20:05 pm
#238 grant10:
Sharks’ swcrumming problem starts with The Beast because he has already been picked up for his poor technique
Smit, Bismark, Janni Dup and Carstens can scrum alright
26 Oct 2009, 20:09 pm
#242 Hondo: i said in the week leading up to that semi i would of played 1 carstens….2 smit …3 jannie dup…
The cheetahs told the sharks that they were going to nail them come scrum time….and thats what happened….
Naka and os said the sharks front row were the target.
No scrum = no kanko = weak 9 and 10 on back feet….
26 Oct 2009, 20:11 pm
Everyone will be welcome on Torque®; whether Jew or Gentile
Good night friends.
26 Oct 2009, 20:12 pm
#244 Sheriff: cheers
26 Oct 2009, 20:16 pm
#242 grant10:
You can’t select an 8, at test level, on the premise that the scrum will be dominant. For years, in the past, we’ve based our game plan on dominating the opposition up front, and when we didn’t there was no plan “B”. It used to drive me mad.
Kanko is great when he’s got space and front foot ball, but disappears when the going gets tough.
26 Oct 2009, 20:18 pm
#243 Sheriff:
You’ve just eliminated the whole Muslim community, and the ancestor worshipping black population.
26 Oct 2009, 20:21 pm
#243 Sheriff: Hi Sheriff, thanks for the invitation……
Now where is David, I have got a bone to pick with him!!
26 Oct 2009, 20:22 pm
#229 grant10:
Urmmm, hope I am not in this category!!
26 Oct 2009, 20:32 pm
Reason we lost in 2008 had nothing to do with January or Watson or Ndungane or Jantjes or Jacobs. It had everything to do with a **** Butch James and an out of sorts Fdp who didn’t take to the experimental Elv’s and a poor one dimensional loose trio combo of Burger Smith Spies and Kanko off bench. 6 7 8 9 and 10 were the problem last year, especially in games 3, 4 and 5 where we lost fielding those out of sorts combinations, definitely not 13 or 14 or 15. People still trying to blame transformation for bok’s woes where in actual fact its the holy white core that let the team down last year 6, 8, 9 and 10. January should have been played throughout and not Fdp and Butch James shouldn’t have come within a mile of a bok jersey in 2008. The lack of a balanced 6, 7 and 8 was the other stuff up. Van Niekerk should have started every game and Schalk should not have been cv 6.
26 Oct 2009, 20:33 pm
#247 carol:
Torque® is the platform you have been waiting for, perhaps even prayed for.
There will be no more tears, no need to choose sides.
Torque® will embrace all.
26 Oct 2009, 20:34 pm
#236 David: it’s a personality thing…
26 Oct 2009, 20:36 pm
#246 David:
Next thing the Freemasons will complain that they were not invited
26 Oct 2009, 20:37 pm
#250 Sheriff: the con is on
26 Oct 2009, 20:38 pm
#247 carol:
Pick away.
26 Oct 2009, 20:39 pm
cv = at
26 Oct 2009, 20:42 pm
#252 Sheriff:
I think… you’re in major sh*t. Obviously I don’t know you or have ever spoken to you.
26 Oct 2009, 20:42 pm
nah, the team in 2008 was good, they just did not know the coach was a genius yet, always happens, then they realised and bang, won everything under the sun.
januarie one of reasons they lost to the lions, he’s not sharp. with the elvs its a real problem if u want continuity, even fdp has speeded up.
26 Oct 2009, 20:43 pm
no sweat.
Beast
Chili
Steenkamp
January
De Jongh
JP
Mapoe
Kirchner
That = 7 out of 15, so where’s the problem? Mountains out of f.ng mole hills again. Looking for spooks where none reside, or Tokoloshe’s
26 Oct 2009, 20:44 pm
#250 Sheriff:
“Torque® will embrace all.”
Bloody pervert.
26 Oct 2009, 20:44 pm
Keo,
“You don’t bite the hand that feeds you”.
It is about compromise and you must remember that PDV is not one of those politicians have the final say. He knows which way his bread is buttered and all he can really do is find a (semi) happy medium.
26 Oct 2009, 20:48 pm
#256 David:
Ok, how about this: Torque® will be for hensoppers and bittereinders.
Im merely trying to cover the full spectrum; merely saying that it will be for both black and white is so…so unspectacular
26 Oct 2009, 20:51 pm
Team in 2008 were up the pole for two basic reasons. Fdp and James all wrong and Spies ahead of Van Niekerk a stupid joke. Also Burger should have backed up Smith at 7 with Van Niekerk at 8 Watson at 6 and Spies off bench, Kanko should have remained in Durban on South Beach eyeing chicks. Montgomery should have started all the games except in Cape Town where his mind was nowhere near the ball but all over the hyped up media instead.
James and Fdp were the fundamental problem and Spies Smith Burger the other problem.
Obviously if they’d have realized Pdv was the coach they could actually trust back then would have helped a great deal too. Cheeky Watson should have stayed the hell away from the Bok hotel, which was problem no.4.
26 Oct 2009, 20:53 pm
1. beast 2. rallapelle 3. Guthro (larry S) 4. van heerden 5. lobberts 6. mpo 7. johnson 8. mokena 9. adams 10. francis 11. mapoe 12. de jong 13. habana (jacobs) 14. mvovo 15. kirchener
juries, demas, floors, noble – some good talent coming thru, in 5 years going to be pretty unbeatable – watch.
26 Oct 2009, 20:53 pm
#250 Sheriff: I miss Keo as it was before……but hey, things change!!
The changes have given Keo new lease of life and RT goes from strength to strength, so I’m sure you could have fun with Tourque.
26 Oct 2009, 20:55 pm
#254 David: Where is Grant10 when I need him, just ask him if he thinks I would pass the bloody pencil test!!
26 Oct 2009, 20:56 pm
#259 David: Sheriff does have a way with words!
26 Oct 2009, 20:56 pm
kanko should have stayed on the beach along with joe van niekerk – tho i dunno what has got into the latter, but he;s been in scintillating form in france.
james would still not let the boks down, hell what a season at bath before injured, he was running in tries from all over the park, the pommerainians did not know what had hit them.
26 Oct 2009, 20:57 pm
January was way better than Fdp in 2008 but not any more, though maybe in Europe where mongrel is required could prove worthy again. I’d chuck a bone to Sarel Pretorius for a mid week game, he’s far more snappy round the scrum and through the pass than both Fdp and January put together.
26 Oct 2009, 20:57 pm
#246 David: spies has improved but also not at his best come bok time because of a retreating scrum
I would have a Luke,Dewalt ,Even alberts at 8 idf i were to continue with the current bok front row….
which wont happen by the way.,,,
26 Oct 2009, 20:58 pm
#264 cab: bloody exciting!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:00 pm
#266 carol: LOL…..I think those tests are assigned to the scrap heap…thank God!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:00 pm
snappiest for me are the ex-wp oke now playing for cheetahs, jp joubert and frans hougaart also a firecracker, the latter is fast and very strong with ball in hand too and caused the BIL huge problems when playing for the Kings. Paul Delport looked very good a few years ago, but seems to have totally dropped off.
26 Oct 2009, 21:00 pm
#264 carol: keo had to change, it was no sustainable the way it was, something had to give…you sound (maybe unbeknown to yourself) like some south africans who say they liked south africa the way it was before (life in the old south africa to them was perfect)
26 Oct 2009, 21:00 pm
Ai Keo. Just wonder how these Black players feel when they read this hogwash. Well they are public figures I guess. Will have to live with consequencies thereof. Funny enough, not so long ago the primary requirement to be a bok was white skin and very few Keos of this world had a problem with that except the Watsons in PE and Haynes the British cabinet member before he was banned.
Race whether we like it or not will remain an issue in Saffa land. Unpalatable for some but true though.
26 Oct 2009, 21:01 pm
#265 carol:
The pencil test measures how curly your hair is. As a married woman, I wouldn’t risk asking for an opinion about that on a public website.
26 Oct 2009, 21:03 pm
#273 Transformation:
it was perfect, if you were white – not so lekker if you had a tan tho.
26 Oct 2009, 21:04 pm
#273 cab: delport back with the 7 s squad now…
26 Oct 2009, 21:05 pm
#264 carol:
In designing Torque® I aimed at people like you. People who can see both sides.
People like will excel on Torque® and will find it incredibly enabling.
When drawing up the Top 10 of Torque® we will never look at quantity. Quality and excellence – those are the pillars of Torque®
I expect a huge influx of especially Kiwis.
26 Oct 2009, 21:05 pm
#274 Transformation: there is no comparison….the new sa rocks…..
26 Oct 2009, 21:06 pm
#273 Transformation:
Nkosi yam! Bayethe!!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:06 pm
#277 grant10:
oh right, i see you had some interesting news about harrison, must be a lions signing thru WW and judas jones, not bad at all, harrisson is a belligenernt bugger, he aint shaw, but could be good signing for 1 year.
26 Oct 2009, 21:06 pm
Joe Van Niekerk 100 times the 8th man that Spies could ever be. Even Watson a far more composite ball carrier link man 8th man than Spies and Kanko don’t even feature whatsoever.
Anthonie Claassen might have had a point to prove too
JVN
Vermeulen
Alberts
Watson
Spies
Burger
Potgieter
Johnson
Mokuena
Kanko
Thats roughly the state of no.8′s pecking order right about now.
26 Oct 2009, 21:07 pm
#275 Peter Mkata: doesent and shouldnt be that way Peter…dont believe it….in fact change is rapid……
26 Oct 2009, 21:09 pm
#282 cab: He is a foul mouthed son of a ***** to be honest…a disciplinary record that makes Moaner van heerden and schalk burger senior look like choir boys….still banned in europe for druhs i believe??
You lions welcome to him….hell he is a nutter that oke!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:09 pm
#271 grant10: In England they mean something else ENTIRELY!!!
Cultural confusion again!!!
#275 David: You must remember the pencil test from when you were in England!! (Nothing to do with hair)!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:11 pm
actually there are some bladdy good south african 8th men around, ashley johnson is like a black schalk burger, he’s a wrecking ball and playing very well.
if its skills you want, sowerby has also had an outstanding season. kanko got plenty skill and links very well too and a better lineout option than many in your list, but not my cup of tea, then again neither are watson or van niekerk.
both very good players, but more effective no 8.
26 Oct 2009, 21:11 pm
#274 Peter Mkata: as a black guy would you object to being selected to the springboks for political reasons?
26 Oct 2009, 21:11 pm
Overseas loose trio….6 Luke
7 wiskus
8 JVN
Scary…and loads more there too….
Makes me mal!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:11 pm
It gets even better.
I realise that I may have become a bit of a controversial figure, albeit unintentionally.
For that very reason, those who wish to join will deal with friendly welcoming faces, making the signing up process nothing but a pleasure.
1, 2 , 3 and you’re in the mix.
Your choice if you want to give fictitious name or not. Again, pics will be available for all to see, even visitors.
26 Oct 2009, 21:12 pm
#284 grant10:
at no 3 and 4 you dont pick the nicest boy in the class.
u want a cussing dirty mean son of a gun that you would never introduce your sister too.
26 Oct 2009, 21:13 pm
#274 Peter Mkata:
There were quite a few others who didn’t have the public profile of those you mentioned. I have 2 friends who died because of their beliefs and others who quietly resisted the system.
26 Oct 2009, 21:14 pm
wikus wanted to come home…Lions were keen…saracens said no….
Brendon Venter a hard bugger too!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:14 pm
Pdv must just drive this transformation issue home now and stuff snooty scribes like Gavin Riches and WW singalong clubs and the like who keep looking for tokoloshe’s under their beds at night.
Bring these guys into the main stream, Johnson , Mapoe, De Jongh, Mpophiso, Mvovo, Nontshinga, juries, we won’t look back.
26 Oct 2009, 21:15 pm
#274 Peter Mkata: exactly why you cant take the high ground if things are simply reversed surely peter?
sadly, as life goes on, you start to realise that it is simply a matter of pressure groups exerting influence.
take this blog for instance. it was seen as a far right hangout by some and pressure was exerted.
people left and now it has become a bit leftist imo.
swings and roundabouts.
is the RT trek a metaphor for the need to seperate the people who have views that differ widely, the people of different cultures who refuse to compromise on their own beliefs?
i hope not.
i just think another avenue to overcome our lack of places to talk to each other, has been compromised.
that said, congrats to the posters who have responded here. very mature, very reasonable.
but boring as watching paint dry imo.
26 Oct 2009, 21:16 pm
#283 grant10:
Sure certainly change will come. But once you read opportunists like Keo it makes my blood boil. Is there no better way Keo can use to influence team selection for eoy tour?
26 Oct 2009, 21:16 pm
#291 cab: LOL….Classic….
I dont really enjoy the foreigners unless real superstars that can teach our up and coming okes…Like C Jack…T Brown….
Justin Harrisson teaching our young locks here….bloody hell!!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:17 pm
#278 Sheriff: Well have fun Sheriff, I know GBS has enjoyed his new adventure.
If it provides as much entertainment as Keo and RT it will be a worthy addition to the blog experience.
The bloggers gallery is a great idea, but if you are not willing to post a picture of yourself why should you be able to see the others……fairs fair!!!
What do you think, otherwise it becomes a bit voyeristic! (Did I spell that right)?
26 Oct 2009, 21:18 pm
#292 grant10:
venter was a strange one, i never really understood why he was rated as a centre or a coach.
26 Oct 2009, 21:18 pm
#290 cab:
You have a sister? Does she have a phone number?
26 Oct 2009, 21:19 pm
#296 grant10:
i reckon if WP had still had Chris Jack for the semi might have been different, he would also have made a massive difference in S14.
26 Oct 2009, 21:19 pm
if i had to post a picture of myself, i would choose a leopard.
i never change my spots.
26 Oct 2009, 21:21 pm
#280 Peter Mkata: ndiyabulisa nam mntan’ eNkosi…ndiyathembe usithele kwesisivungu-vungu nalemvula ilapha phandle apha…uyambona u-keo uqhwaya uchuku angazikulufeza?, qho uPdv xa ezakuchonga abadlali kubhalwa obububhanxa…
26 Oct 2009, 21:21 pm
#299 David:
ja apparently am meeting the bf for the first time next week, been told to behave.
26 Oct 2009, 21:22 pm
#296 Peter Mkata: I understand Peter. Must tell you i read Cry Freedom Saturday….couldnt put it down….Biko was a special man….got me thinking about the southern Kings….i really hope saru embraces the E Cape…i wish could do something to influence the deal there….
I think Biko would be happy that the country is on track….the youth are fully integrated now…i for one see endless opportunities….
We need to stop the tribal differentiation….that is the great divider!
26 Oct 2009, 21:23 pm
#294 rangerman: Fancy a scrap if you want some action?
You start………
I’m not going to fight with Grant it is too upsetting!!Heheheh
Say something rude about Jonny Wilkinson….
Actually you are too nice to fight with……….!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:23 pm
black players will be solely chosen on merit from now on.
this is as it should be.
white players will be treated the same.
our long history of biased selections is now a thing of the past.
let the springboks be the leaders for south africa.
viva AmaBokoboko!
26 Oct 2009, 21:24 pm
#299 cab: Hard man…dirty too!!
I reckon a better coach than player …
26 Oct 2009, 21:24 pm
#304 grant10: Stop being rude about Poms and Kiwis then!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:25 pm
#301 cab: Agree…we missed 2 x lineouts in last 2 minutes that lead to the last penalty….
Still bleed when i remember the arm going up!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:25 pm
#291 David:
Mentioned those specifically for their profile. There were a lot of others who played rugby in Black teams during that era. Remember a certain Rassie Erasmus, a scrummy and a policeman nogal, who played in my local team. I am talking 1980s here. Should have seen the confusion it created in the old Saru rugby structures.
Sure David you are correct. We talk in general terms unfortunately.
26 Oct 2009, 21:27 pm
#297 carol:
I can already tell that without seeing it, experiencing it, you are already distancing yourself from it in advance.
Has Torque® offended you already?
26 Oct 2009, 21:28 pm
#294 rangerman:
That’s the problem. There was a rather volatile mix of opinions here, but rather than confont and debate them some people found it easier to withdraw to their comfort zone. The thing that used to really piss me off, in the past, was the injunction that you don’t discuss politics at a social gathering. In other words, questioning apartheid was taboo.
The sin that dare not speak its’ name.
I’m also trying to get a definition of what “left leaning” is in todays society. It appears to be nothing to do with economic policies but still to do with accepting the concept of a universal franchise.
26 Oct 2009, 21:29 pm
#306 carol: I am bullet proof….dont get upset anymore….just laugh it all off now…..
Although tell me J Smit is a tighthead and schalk burger an opensider and i do tend to lose my sense of humour!!
By the way some good stuff on RT lately….subject matter close to my heart….
Tell BDB i miss him….
26 Oct 2009, 21:31 pm
#309 carol: LOL….Easier said than done….will be supporting the poms against Wallabies and Kiwis….cant promise against the argies though!!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:31 pm
#294 rangerman: it’s kinda hard to take the high ground rangerman in the face of blatant disregard! Jake & now recently Pdv complained about S14 coaches that do not help the national cause. Please advise, if you were @ saru and tasked to implement & drive transformation in rugby how would you work around that situation?
26 Oct 2009, 21:31 pm
#304 grant10:
Was told he was a great flank foward during his time, well in excess of 6 ft.
26 Oct 2009, 21:33 pm
#294 rangerman:
Go sing it on the mountain or round the ossewa campfire. Who been asking for exclusivity and holy white enshrined ideology, these or the others, you got your leopard spots all *** about face.
26 Oct 2009, 21:34 pm
#297 carol:
Sorry missed the comment re pic.
No we will not deal with it that way. Its about comfort.
If you’re comfortable to out a pic there, then fine. If not then also fine.
Our point of departure is that bloggers are sincere, intelligent and have nothing to hide. And they join us voluntarily and can blog when it suits them.
Even if we have 1 or 2 post per thread, it will be ok. Highly unlikely of course.
Im particularly curious to see the real NZ rugby fans; thus far we’ve seen very mild ones.
26 Oct 2009, 21:34 pm
#304 grant10:
the thing with Biko was he wanted to instill pride and black consciousness, which is going to take alot of time to do even in the new SA, with all the menial jobs and associations. was never right to have mades and garden okes and stupid **** like that, tho i understand in any society that is necessary, but its more the attitudes than anything.
i suppose some might argue malema is similar to biko, but i dont think so, malema seems to be a politician with flaming rhetoric whose more interested than his career than anything or anyone else.
26 Oct 2009, 21:35 pm
#311 Sheriff: Me, no I am very open minded!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:35 pm
#305 carol: no scrap for me Carol.
i have far to many people i value here to allow racial issues to cloud the truth.
i can sympathise with the people who suffered under apartheid but i can never empathise as i didnt go through it.
so i am not making light of peoples suffering, but maybe we need a white Steve Biko?
or was that what Bok van Blerk was trying?
we need to free our minds.
26 Oct 2009, 21:36 pm
#317 Peter Mkata: yes…the book describes him playing….i tell you i was really moved …we have come a long way….must never let those guys like Biko down….
26 Oct 2009, 21:37 pm
#287 Pearl Rose:
Expand please on your question as in now or during the apartheid era.
26 Oct 2009, 21:38 pm
#312 David: David don’t miss the point that some found the constant fighting and name calling rather tiresome after a while!!
Blogging is supposed to be fun as well as challenging, being insulted constantly does get a bit wearing!!
26 Oct 2009, 21:40 pm
#321 rangerman:
was bok van blerk the oke that sung declarey declarey…?
yessus i heard that and thought paul kruger was ordering the janne pretoria toe.
26 Oct 2009, 21:40 pm
#312 David: lol @ “leftist leaning”…funny thing is supa dave your post reminded me of an email from GBS imploring myself & lilith to “go easy on my afrikaans brothers i’m still working on them”…yet he is the main architect of the split…
26 Oct 2009, 21:41 pm
#320 cab: biko had the ‘juice’….he would have been a great leader of this country….key is to not ever let there vision be forgotten….and the new SA must not let these heroes down.
I dont want to stir up things here but i am scared of the communists hijacking our freedom….
Enough from me…
26 Oct 2009, 21:42 pm
#320 carol:
The true test will be if you can manage to blog on all 3 equally.
In terms of time spent or number of posts.
Cheating could be to seemingly blog on all 3 equally only to mail friend on Torque® off-line. Of course the scales would then tip in favour of Torque®
26 Oct 2009, 21:42 pm
#313 grant10: Look you and I both have the occasional achilles tendon moment…..just push us too far!!
Otherwise yep, water off a ducks back.
Glad you like some RT stuff, the guys are not journalists but have a go, good on them. Will pass your message to BDB.
When does PDV say who he is bringing over for the EOYT by the way?
26 Oct 2009, 21:42 pm
#327 grant10:
the commies? where?
26 Oct 2009, 21:43 pm
#312 David: no man David!
“but still to do with accepting the concept of a universal franchise.”
typical bleddy capetown lefty speak man.
dont confuse issues please, or try to put me in the box of south african political leanings ie. totally polarised.
i am trying to free my mind. mine alone.
#315 Transformation: i have no high ground. many others have mentioned the fallibility of the window dressing approach whilst sitting on ones *** doing fokkol.
merit buddy. get used to it. we cant go in circles for the next 400 years unless vengeance is the motivation and thats not really healthy.
#317 skopskiet: dont get cute with me old man. i am not asking for your approval.
i would be mortified if i got it in fact.
spread the love buddy.
26 Oct 2009, 21:46 pm
#325 carol: I dont want to get involved but the fighting was 2 sided….and the way the laager manne treated our brothers was at times so appalling i couldnt believe my eyes…..
Believe me carol….the troubles were started from the laager….how come now there are no race wars…only debate???
No criticism but i suggest you read a few books about The Struggle….and the sacrifices and the pain and suffering and deaths…..
Seriously…perhaps you too may find a Damascus Road.
26 Oct 2009, 21:47 pm
#321 rangerman: Would much rather talk about meerkat biltong and bush stuff with you
26 Oct 2009, 21:47 pm
I said it before n I say it again. Bang broeks chickened out, ran for the comfort zone of the koeksuster en koffie en konfyt backslap paradigm instead of confronting the diversity square on. And so you have RT where the ‘right wing’ despises the ‘left wing’ and you slap bang straight back to the same drawing board all over again.
Crucify the encompassing visionary and eulogise the conservative bang broek stuck in the mud chicken.
26 Oct 2009, 21:48 pm
have i made a suitable stir?
i dont think so.
but JP Pietersen is my favourite player and if he was playing 20 years ago, he wouldnt have been playing in the green and gold.
merit. its the way forward imo.
26 Oct 2009, 21:50 pm
what i did not know there were koeksuster recipes?!
that changes things altogether…
26 Oct 2009, 21:50 pm
#330 carol: after the finsal sat…37 man squad….enjoyed the heinke to 3 thread….interesting stuff.
26 Oct 2009, 21:50 pm
#323 Peter Mkata: if your name was ashley johnson and you were included in the Test against Ireland before Ryan Kankowski and scribes like Mark Keohane, Clinton van der Berg wrote ad nauseum about your selection and branded you a quota or that you were selected for political reasons, would you honour the Test match and live with the quota tag?
26 Oct 2009, 21:50 pm
#332 grant10: Grant I am just saying what I saw and perhaps not understanding Afrikaans I missed alot!
Can we not go there again! I understand where you are coming from though!
26 Oct 2009, 21:51 pm
#332 grant10: grant, pointing fingers at people who arent here to defend themself isnt right imo.
if the “laager” manne (wtf does that mean by the way?) were now to defend themselves against your assertion, who could we conclude started hostilities?
it is interesting that you use a religious analogy.
i have another.
“let he who is innocent amongst them cast the first stone…”
26 Oct 2009, 21:51 pm
#331 cab: being deployed in powerful spots in cabinet ,etc…but cab …no more …
26 Oct 2009, 21:51 pm
#312 David:
You know David that is how one learns about tolerance. It drives poeple up the wall sometimes including myself. There is a sickness in our society across the board – hatred of a different view. That is why you read of MK veterans wishing Kader Asmal to die because he raised pertinent issues.
This blog is far better now because different view is tolerated and there is less personal attacks. That is how our country will eventually be better off. Stop sticking head in the sand.
26 Oct 2009, 21:52 pm
#334 skopskiet: and the “left wing” on keo despises the “right wing” over there.
i will hold to the middle.
centrist ranger.
26 Oct 2009, 21:54 pm
#341 grant10:
whats wrong?
u about too toy-toy or chant ‘viva biko viva, amandla’?
i had a left pommie who i shared an office with who used to greet me every morning with ‘free biko’ – yoh we used to laugh, the stupid ******* had no idea what he was talking about.
26 Oct 2009, 21:56 pm
cute ma ***, these fence sitters talking about spreading the love, couldn’t be further hypocritical if you tried. Then they talk about Cape Town flowery leftists in the same breath. Only one who’s flowery floundering in his own search for meaning is those trying to free their minds from compromised reality staring them in the face.
Typical Mr Goody Two shoes trying to spread a love that don’t exist.
26 Oct 2009, 21:56 pm
#341 rangerman: i struggle to take anything seriously from a guy that believes J sMIT is a tighthead….
I have only been here for a while….i know 3 facts…
1 J Smit is no tighthead
2 Schalk Burger is no opensider and
3 The racial wars had 1 or 2 main manne behind them….and i am happy to say it as i see it…
26 Oct 2009, 21:57 pm
#344 cab: lol hiyas cabbie
#340 rangerman: hiyas boet , and amen
26 Oct 2009, 21:57 pm
come come, leave mr rangerman alone, he is entitled to his opinion.
26 Oct 2009, 21:57 pm
can anyone honestly tell me that quotas or political inclusions based on race are still neccescary?
honestly?
26 Oct 2009, 21:58 pm
#347 sharks_lover:
evening, you can’t be too happy about the sharks?
26 Oct 2009, 21:58 pm
#340 rangerman: All this right wing left wing stuff, I just see people that I like…..on RT and here.
Actually some of the RT guys wanted you to visit, think of it as a complement and not a political statement!!
Black/white/left/right………can’t you just be rugby supporters with opinions?
26 Oct 2009, 21:59 pm
#345 cab: LOL…No…i just dont want to talk politics….
Funny story about the pom!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:00 pm
#347 sharks_lover: What Ho Sharkie!
26 Oct 2009, 22:01 pm
#338 Pearl Rose:
I will honour the call up with pride. You have to read what Luke Watson was alleged to have said in the famous speech to understand my point. Keos of this world have their agenda. Do you think the Lions centre Jurrie …. and Van der Westhuizen who now plays in Japan should have refused the honour of presenting his country? Were those journalists as vocal when they played?
26 Oct 2009, 22:01 pm
#350 cab: lol nope cabbie , but as its sports we learn to live with it , and live to fight another day
26 Oct 2009, 22:02 pm
#345 skopskiet: Skop, you are being a real little ray of sunshine tonight!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:02 pm
#355 sharks_lover:
what you reckon the sharks chances are in the S14? you got wim alberts or not? sneaky buggers.
26 Oct 2009, 22:03 pm
#352 carol: Sometimes one has to choose….and as a SAffa we dont have the excuse that we dont understand….i do understand….the laager or the new SA…for me it is a simple choice….
No one told the manne to build a laager…they chose too….so thats the way it is…there choice to cocoon away where they happy….
26 Oct 2009, 22:03 pm
#324 carol:
I have a lot more history on this site and the people involved, than you, and I’m not being patronising. There was a good reason for the anger.
26 Oct 2009, 22:03 pm
#322 grant10: as admirable as forgiveness is, it is not a place where one just arrives at like newlands & that if you go through these turnstiles you are consenting to forgive and there is no turning back…like rangeman said now, he can’t empathise because he didn’t live it, i get that.
But for families who still don’t know where the remains of their loved ones are buried, i would think it probably difficult to just move on. just about three weeks ago there was a funeral here in PE of the Pebco 3, it may look trivial to some but it was necessary to those families to get forensic people to go & exhume those bodies wherever they were dumped, tested for dna & the brought home for burial…
when you consider such things, rugby & people trying to monopolise it for themselves just seem trivial. Keo can harp on as much as he likes he won’t have the last word, that i can guarantee you.
26 Oct 2009, 22:03 pm
#353 carol: hiyas carol hugssss , hope you are well
26 Oct 2009, 22:04 pm
#352 grant10: So are you supporting the Cheetahs this weekend? (Need I ask)?
Get your windhoek in, could be a long afternoon and you may need to drown your sorrows after!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:04 pm
Later.
Dont Torque® behind my back now …
26 Oct 2009, 22:06 pm
#356 sharks_lover: Hi SL….you okes cant scrum….if you dont get that front row sorted its all uphill next year…with or without alberts and ludick
26 Oct 2009, 22:06 pm
#357 cab: lol cabbie not sure yet mate , but we need him for sure , big problem with the sharks is light weight locks and loosies
and center pairing a problem
as for super 14 unless the things i mentioned are solved cant see it happening
although sykes is brilliant , and of course mostert is from you valley and is 120 kg lock
that will help
26 Oct 2009, 22:07 pm
#358 grant10:
#359 David:
OK, can I park this one….don’t need confrontation on a subject I am not comfortable with!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:07 pm
actually if the Lions can get harrison and hold onto Alberts, could be v interesting.
26 Oct 2009, 22:09 pm
hello grant
lets wait ans see
i dont believe ur right but hey opinions are like ******** lol , we all have one
our locks are a problem to me , a front row is only as good as the scrummers behind them , and i am not for one moment saying they are 100 % our front row, but you dont go from being very good to nothing within a few games
26 Oct 2009, 22:09 pm
#361 Transformation: I understand boet….my heart bleeds for the people….after reading the book sat i was amazed at the relatively peaceful transition….but that is what makes this land special….and we must root out the racists at every turn. The pain and suffering they caused MUST be forgiven….but never be allowed to rear its evil head ever again….
26 Oct 2009, 22:10 pm
#365 sharks_lover:
yes mostert also looked promising, deysel another gauteng talent.
kankofski moves very well and is silky, but i think he;s going to battle to find a place if alberts is there, unless deysel plays fetcher, but thats not a great balance.
26 Oct 2009, 22:11 pm
#363 carol: Will always support the underdog and i love Brussow so will go with cheetahs ….
But bulls by 10 i reckon…
26 Oct 2009, 22:12 pm
#366 sharks_lover: Love the way everyone blames the locks and loosies when the problem is so plain to see…..
FRONT ROW!!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:13 pm
#367 cab: cabbie if they do this lions team is going to make a few waves for sure
i have always said they are waiting to be unleashed
however i believe alberts mostert and ludick will fill many gaps for the sharks
but even with those solved as named i still feel the center pairing is where other problems lay
26 Oct 2009, 22:13 pm
#361 sharks_lover: After a great weekend very well thanks….How are you tonight?
26 Oct 2009, 22:14 pm
#372 grant10:
but yessus grant, wp have not had a frontrow to speak of since the turn of the century, the sharks have been in countless finals. Go to the Lions test and look at teh scrum in the 10th minute, i have never seen any Lions scrum mangled like that, and by who, yip, the sharks frontrow.
26 Oct 2009, 22:17 pm
#370 cab: i believe deysel will go to fetcher , but i also believe they will be rotated
depending who the sharks have to play
imagine this forward pack , and think here of power and weight
smitty
bissy
beast
sykes
mostert
alberts
deysel
kanko
on the bench or others to call on
jannie
burden
muller
hargreaves
botes
daniel
albert vdb
carstens
cilliers
rhodes
26 Oct 2009, 22:18 pm
#376 sharks_lover:
thats a bladdy good team for the S14 next year, but alberts is key – they mussing some go-forward and depth.
26 Oct 2009, 22:19 pm
#376 cab: it was the tests after that …all down hill…..
But you know my feelings there….J Smit wont be there for too much longer…i reckon a move to 2 imminent….
Already Heinke ‘allegedly’ been asked to try out at 3….the Management know they have a major dilemma….have to say oi called this before the move to 3…just cannot be a real solution….too late to change …and at national level…damn nigh impossible…
Cant have retreaded 8 thman and 2 x hookers in bok front row….
Well not in my team you cant!!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:20 pm
#374 carol: doing great ty hun
#375 cab: btw cabbie press report i read said mostert already training with the sharks
he did not renew contract
in alberts and ludicks case they wanting out of the so called one they had like fourie , so who knows mate , can only wait and see
26 Oct 2009, 22:20 pm
#349 rangerman: they were never necessary in the same way we didn’t need war in this country to solve our issues but as i asked you earlier, if you are faced with blatant disregard & indignant, unreconstructed coaches what are you supposed to do, Cajole them? Time for that is long gone.
26 Oct 2009, 22:20 pm
still rumours about brussow and sharks by the way!!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:21 pm
#378 grant10:
well that move of Heinke to 3 i think is a very smart one, if he wants to challenge for the Boks and get past the politics with beast and guthro at 1. Pity for the Lions tho, because this young chap Kevin Buys looks very good too, with he and heinke, could be a helluva things.
26 Oct 2009, 22:22 pm
#377 cab: alberts will be key for sure and i think he will bring back some spark into the sharks forward pack
also even though thats a big heavy pack its a very mobile pack
26 Oct 2009, 22:22 pm
alberts and ludick need to make intentions clear by 1 nov…they will go to sharks.
26 Oct 2009, 22:24 pm
#381 grant10: to be honest grant i believe them to be just that , rumours
26 Oct 2009, 22:26 pm
#383 cab: Ja cab…..i agree …it is not in Lions best interests…Buys and heinke would be devastating.
I dont believe Heinke should do it….unless he buys in 110% and is prepared to sweat blood….it is a massive change….even for a hard sod like heinke….
WP Nel will be there soon….and perhaps Buys….
And gary gold alluded too the return of BJ AND CJ in his recent interview…..But ja…i see the opportunity for heinke…albeit ait comes with high risk.
26 Oct 2009, 22:28 pm
#386 sharks_lover: Rumours that wont go away….if that happens and Sharks get serious about there front row i reckon thney a massive threat in super 14
26 Oct 2009, 22:28 pm
Grant have you read ‘playing the enemy’ by John Carlin
26 Oct 2009, 22:30 pm
#389 Waz: No…should i ???
26 Oct 2009, 22:31 pm
As everyone was too disinterested to ask earlier I am going to tell you now what the English pencil test is now…..
Those under 18 scroll past as I am going to lower the tone!
Man gets a pencil, asks female to remove her bra, he then sees if she can hold the pencil…..!! All to do with the ‘angle of dangle’
Expect Grant is familiar with this game!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:32 pm
#387 grant10: would be awesome mate but honestly cant see him joining the sharks
can you imagine this forward pack
jannie
smitty
beast
mostert
sykes
alberts
deysel
brussow
bench, bissy carstens muller kanko
26 Oct 2009, 22:33 pm
#391 carol: LOL….I am a leg man….a hand full more than enough…
A cute bum a non negotiable!!
26 Oct 2009, 22:33 pm
thats a different version to the pencil test i know of, but thats probably not for local consumption even if you over 80.
26 Oct 2009, 22:33 pm
the sharks always look good on paper, the k@k happens when they hit the grass. That is when Plumtree’s rubbish tactics implode…their reliance on turnover ball to score tries killed the in the s14 and in the currie cup
26 Oct 2009, 22:34 pm
#392 sharks_lover: that pack runs out i reckon a few teams hoist the white flag!!LOL
Cheers all…
Outta here
26 Oct 2009, 22:34 pm
#389 grant10: I highly suggest it. Its the story of how Mandela used the game of rugby to pave the way to reconciliation, its the book that the movie is being based on that Clint Eastwood is making
26 Oct 2009, 22:34 pm
#395 Transformation: see you boet…
26 Oct 2009, 22:35 pm
#395 grant10: gn grant
26 Oct 2009, 22:35 pm
#397 Waz: thanks…will get a copy.
26 Oct 2009, 22:37 pm
call me Little Ray. Big Ray died the other day after his last rendition of By The Time I get to Phoenix.
Ja SL whats up with your boertjie brethren, is it simply vasbyt pride that keeps them tied to the ossewa riempies where they ploeg maar voort in die nuwe vasberaade lande van melk en heuning en sommer maar net wil nie weet van die plek waar hul enigsins kennis eers gestig was? If you can lower yourself this low surely soms daai heiliges kan die selle doen?
26 Oct 2009, 22:38 pm
the gale force winds have hit Port Elizabeth with a vengeance, my neighbour has just had a piece of wood fly through his window! This is terrible, shattering of glass everywhere…yho
26 Oct 2009, 22:39 pm
#385 sharks_lover:
Not rumours at all. The Sharks management have stated that Alberts and Ludick were eager to move to Durban, but that they were waiting for the results of Jaques case before making an offer, as they had the same contracts. It’ll be a major loss for the Lions. This after the Sharks president boasted about the depth of their talent and development program, whilst criticising the Stormers for buying players instead of developing them.
26 Oct 2009, 22:39 pm
#376 sharks_lover: imo if we get alberts hell play 8 and kanko will go to 6 …not to fetch just to be the first flanker at the breakdown becoz of his speed 6.kanko 7 deysel 8 alberts
26 Oct 2009, 22:41 pm
#392 grant10: Good reply!! See you…
26 Oct 2009, 22:44 pm
#402 David: welcome to the age of professional rugby -we should pull a quick 1 over wp and get de jong -team 1.beast 2.bismark 3.smit 4.sykes 5.alberts/muller 6 botes/kanko 7 deysel 8.kanko/alberts 9 pienaar 10 hernandez 11.mvovs 12 de jongh 12 murray 14 jpp 15 terblancehe
26 Oct 2009, 22:54 pm
#400 skopskiet: Ek is hopeloos at taal but I see your land of milk and honey reference…..Sharky and I like to mingle, why do you want us to take sides?
26 Oct 2009, 22:57 pm
#242 grant10:
Yep, you said it, you were also the only other bloger here who pointed out at the Beast as the weakest link in the Sharks’ tight five!
26 Oct 2009, 22:57 pm
is hernandez staying on for S14? surely not. will cost a fortune.
1. beast (carstens) 2. Bismarck 3. smit (jan dup) 4. sykes 5. Mostert (muller) 6. Deysel (Botes) 7. Wim 8. Kanko 9. kockett 10. pienaar 11. mvovu (murray) 12. hernandez (swanepoel) 13. jacobs 14. jp 15. terreblacnhe
26 Oct 2009, 22:57 pm
howzit Sharks lover!
sorry all. i left a bit quickly as the love of my life walked in after spending her day flying around thunderstorms.
i am off to kip.
have a great evening.
26 Oct 2009, 22:58 pm
#360 Transformation:
I just wish that the Pebco 3 were given the same publicity and recognition as the ANC cadres.
26 Oct 2009, 22:59 pm
#408 cab:
Yup, he’s signed for the S14.
26 Oct 2009, 22:59 pm
#405 80srovers: quick question.
does the name Bert Tuhi ring any bells?
26 Oct 2009, 22:59 pm
if you understood the gist of my post Carol Ok you’d realize I’m encouraging some vasberaade die hards to mingle a little more than they do, like step out of the shadows of the vierkleur vlag flapping in the breeze over the orderly ossewa kring. Just now n again else they might just never recognize the land they call home when they eventually do.
26 Oct 2009, 23:01 pm
#409 rangerman: I thought I had offended you!!
See you ‘Middleman’!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:02 pm
#410 David: by whom supa dave?
26 Oct 2009, 23:02 pm
#411 David:
holy ****, they must have a treasure chest of note.
26 Oct 2009, 23:03 pm
#414 carol: cheers Carol.
80srovers i will check your reply tomorrow.
tjorts julle.
26 Oct 2009, 23:04 pm
#413 skopskiet: What is vasberaade and a vierkleur vlag?
You are loosing me again….ossewa kring too….
26 Oct 2009, 23:05 pm
#418 carol:
basically the BNP.
26 Oct 2009, 23:07 pm
#415 Transformation:
The Sharks. I was referring to Hernandez.
26 Oct 2009, 23:08 pm
#391 sharks_lover:
Carstens’ few miles ahead of the Beast, on merit selection basis the Beast won’t be on the bench even!
Cilliers, Carstens and Jannie Dup cover all prop positions with Smit and Bissi for the hooker.
I am surprised that after the best’s performance against the Cheetahs and the Golden Lions lately he is still mentioned, Has no one replayed the tapes?
26 Oct 2009, 23:08 pm
if steyn had stayed with the sharks and they get alberts, they could’ve win the damn thing next year. i mean hernandez is class.
26 Oct 2009, 23:09 pm
#418 carol:
Vasberaade: determined
Vierkleur: Four Colour flag, the old Transvaal Republic flag of the man that brought down a British Prime Minister ande bankrupted Britain by forcing them to keep an army of 450,000 souls in the field against 20,000 farmer who could shoot straight
26 Oct 2009, 23:09 pm
#419 cab: Good grief, they are a bunch of loonies!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:10 pm
#423 4man: for “man” read “men”
26 Oct 2009, 23:10 pm
#420 David: old man dave look @ the post i replied to…i was asking who should’ve given the pebco 3 more publicity?
26 Oct 2009, 23:11 pm
#419 cab: Disagree….not quite…the BNP are something else entirely.
26 Oct 2009, 23:11 pm
lol, it was quite amusing to see hernandez get involved in some fisticuffs, its totally out of character, but he obviously felt that is what was needed in SA, the only thing is could someone tell him not to pick on WP Nel, it would be nice to see him see the season out…
26 Oct 2009, 23:11 pm
Wtf the Sharks want with a mercenary Argie Fh when they supposed to be grooming Pienaar as back up Bok Fh as per Pdv’s request. If it were Oz or Nz then the S14 franchise coaches would be operating under national optimum interest with the country’s player resources, but not here.
26 Oct 2009, 23:12 pm
#423 4man: Hello 4man..
Are you related to one of those ‘straight shootin farmers’ per chance?
So Boks on a Tuesday in November….why do you need Wednesday off? Have I missed something?
26 Oct 2009, 23:12 pm
#427 4man:
yeah, just stirring, but how else can you describe the ossewa rendition and keep everything like-minded and kie.
26 Oct 2009, 23:13 pm
#429 skopskiet:
yeah thats also true, but hernandes can be used at 12 or 15 or anywhere actually.
26 Oct 2009, 23:15 pm
#430 carol: Ha ha I had a great grandfather on each side at the relief of the siege of Kimberley (my Moms ancestors)and my Natal ancestors hated both sides, as the Brits took their horses for remounts and the Boers took their sheep to eat….and they never got paid.
I start so early that I cant go to a game of rugby in the week, it would destroy me entirely for the rest of the week.
26 Oct 2009, 23:16 pm
#427 4man: Just missed the madness outside the BBC the other day, saw the police vans and helicopters and thought it was to do with the postmans strike at first!
26 Oct 2009, 23:18 pm
#421 Hondo: ha ha ha ha you’re hilarious buddy…carstens?
26 Oct 2009, 23:18 pm
long time Mnr Viermannertjie, about time too, never to late to build brugge that never really got torn down.
26 Oct 2009, 23:18 pm
#431 cab: Well, if one looks at it realistically, the Britis used the excuse of “taxation without representation” to interfere on behalf of their expats in the Goldfields to manipulate the situation to get their hands on the Gold and Diamonds.
The Ossewa kring, well the nBoers used to form a laager and batten down the hatchers when in trouble….much like the Israelis do today, but the Ossewa Brandwag which was a radical right wing element of the bitter ender Boers and their antecedents formed around WW2 to oppose Jannie Smuts and his SAP (South Africa Party) in joining the Allies to fight the Germans. The BNP preaqch a fascism akin to what the Germans and Italians did circa WW2.
stirrer
26 Oct 2009, 23:20 pm
#433 4man: Your family were really in the thick of it then!
What are you doing up at this time if you get up early?
26 Oct 2009, 23:20 pm
#426 Transformation:
The media, I suppose. The ANC have tried their best to downplay or ignore the BC activists like Goniwe and Biko.
26 Oct 2009, 23:20 pm
#434 carol: Well its a bit daft…Britian advocates everyone having their say….the BNP dont have any chance of ever being a majority, people should just let things run their course instead of raising sympathy folr these guys.
26 Oct 2009, 23:22 pm
#438 carol: Talking to you of course!!!! seeing I send you long e-mails and you dont reply.
Actually I just popped into the site to see if I can get Mark Keohanes e-mail addie as it is on my other computer, he has stopped sending me my keo newsletter. Then I saw you….and couldnt resist.
26 Oct 2009, 23:23 pm
#437 4man:
yeah but look the NP and the BNP are virtually identical, they are nationalists, its patriotism gone bad which does basically leave fascists with no toleration of difference.
26 Oct 2009, 23:23 pm
#440 4man: The viewing figures were huge though!
26 Oct 2009, 23:24 pm
#423 4man:
The Mauser 98 had about 500 yard advantage over the old Lee Enfield used in 1901-1903
Making adjustment for wind correction on the highveld was a second nature for the Boers while most of the British conscripts had no clue, shooting at a moving target ditto.
No coincidence that name such as Gerald Bosch, Naas Botha, De wet Ras, Jannie De Beer and now Morne and Fran Styen are the longest shooters in Test rugby, it called heritage!
26 Oct 2009, 23:24 pm
#434 carol:
I was reading Labours reaction, that the Beeb shouldn’t have given them airtime, as it promoted their cause. The same argument could have applied during the sixties when the Labour party and the TUC were hand in glove with the Communist party.
26 Oct 2009, 23:26 pm
#441 4man:
Sorry….great mail about your travels….thought I should wait until something ‘interesting’ happened here!!
How could I compete with a hooker and a trucker story!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:26 pm
fascism is fascism whichever brand or banner it happens to fall under, some prefer to call it nationalism, fine line between nationalism and fascism as soon as ethnicity or skin colour is brought into the reckoning. Pretty fine line of nationalistic hypocricy indeed. Borders around fear and inbred paranoia mainly, not too much else.
26 Oct 2009, 23:27 pm
#444 Hondo: You know I learnt alot about shooting in Africa from reading….Wilbur Smith!!
That man really likes his guns!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:27 pm
#442 cab: I dont hold a candle for the Nats, but read the BNP manifesto….these ous are bad news…..the Nats got a lot of bad press and propaganda about them, which has skewed peoples thinking, particularly abroad, about Saffas….Verwoerd, however, was poison.
If one looks at it logically people are going back to their roots with Wales, Scotland etc wanting to return to their own “homeland”, which means England will stop footing the bill, then they’ll soon change their mind when all the Scot politicians are out of Whitehall.
26 Oct 2009, 23:29 pm
#445 David: I found the whole episode very distasteful from all sides!
26 Oct 2009, 23:30 pm
#444 Hondo: The Mauser advantage wasnt that great, the Boers even used Lee Enfields at the end as that is the only ammo they could get (the mauser was a larger calibre) and outshot the Brits 9 times out of 10….it had to do with survival….in International shooting competitions today Saffas are still in a class of their own when given the same equipment as the others…been there done that.
26 Oct 2009, 23:31 pm
#449 4man: Let’s send Gordon Brown back to Scotland, they are welcome to him!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:32 pm
#446 carol: **** it was funny the next morning when I thought about it again….the look on their faces was something to see.
26 Oct 2009, 23:32 pm
#449 4man:
Well, one of them won’t be the PM after the next election.
26 Oct 2009, 23:34 pm
#451 4man: As well as not replying to your mails I also forgot my Guiness Superbru!!
I will now give you guys a chance to win!! Hehehehe
26 Oct 2009, 23:34 pm
#449 4man:
i’m sure you dont, but the similarity between the NP and BNP is striking. They are both after securing white minority interests. Most people abroad would consider the apartheid regime under the NP far more heinous than the BNP.
The only difference is that most the BNP is a minority party and thus cannot be voted in, whereas the NP was a white majority. The BNP also has not engaged in poltical murders and laws, which the NP did, which Transformation mentioned.
26 Oct 2009, 23:35 pm
#453 4man: Things like that do not happen in Chipping Norton!! How could I compete?
26 Oct 2009, 23:35 pm
#452 carol: Agreed….I am voting “Green” next election….the other crowd arent much better….they are going to let the banks carry on like they were before….but RBS is a great share to buy…it is rock bottom at the mo, but the government will never let that one go to the wall, they owe us taxpayers too much!!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:35 pm
#451 4man:
One of the things that is often overlooked in SA, is that the majority of the British public, at the time, were against the Boer war.
26 Oct 2009, 23:36 pm
#457 carol:
Good god, do you live there? It’s almost a Cotswold theme park.
26 Oct 2009, 23:37 pm
Dutch ancestry a pretty fine upstanding ancestry it is too. Stern upstanding qualities of character inherent in most its principles. Just a pity it tends to waver just a little over the edge of moderation and veers towards nationalist pride when push comes to shove. Takes the verlig like Jannie Soutie Smuts or Van Zyl Slabbert or Beyers Naude to bring the best attributes of humane moderation out of it.
26 Oct 2009, 23:37 pm
#454 David: Agree 100%…polls put Labour 3rd, thats why I watch rugby and ride my bike and play with my dogs….just enjoy life and exercise your vote.
26 Oct 2009, 23:38 pm
#455 carol: I’m also not doing well on the Guiness, but my Currie Cup is looking good, even though my team got their arses kicked.
26 Oct 2009, 23:38 pm
was a voorlaier a mauser? was that 270 or 303 calibre?
26 Oct 2009, 23:39 pm
Jannie Soutie Smuts – LMAO
26 Oct 2009, 23:40 pm
#456 cab: yep….my real point is the BNP must be allowed to have their say, the people of Britain are intelligent enough not to fall for their philosphy….thinking has definitely moved right though, because of the freeloaders on the welfare system.
26 Oct 2009, 23:41 pm
#460 David: Exactly…. it’s no wonder I escape and talk to real people on RT and Keo, not the munchkins and hobbits that live in the mellow honey coloured Cotswold Stone Cottages round here…..Arghhhhh
26 Oct 2009, 23:41 pm
#457 carol: Invite us down….I seem to attract this stuff….I am utterly convinced G*d has a sense of humour.
26 Oct 2009, 23:42 pm
#466 4man:
the BNP, or any right-wing party, always get alot more support when economic times are tough – the brits hate those ******** tho. and actually i dont know why they have that leader who looks to have a particularly shaky disposition, which actually perhaps largely masks the true ugliness of these groups.
26 Oct 2009, 23:43 pm
#459 David: Correct….the right wingers were in charge. The resilience of the Afrikaner is truly amazing and I am thoroughly proud of that side of my ancestry, particularly now that I live in England.
26 Oct 2009, 23:44 pm
#468 4man: I did invite you down and you promptly went to South Africa, thought it was the thought of my cooking that drove you away!
26 Oct 2009, 23:45 pm
#464 cab: No…a voorlaaier was and old powder and ball gun loaded from down the barrel…basically a flintlock.
The Boer Mausers were a 7.92 calibre if I’m not mistaken….I’ll check it out again. Musgrave used the mauser action (bolt) I have one of those early Lyttleton barrels on a 30.06 and shoot springbok at 3 to 400 metres with it.
26 Oct 2009, 23:48 pm
#469 cab: Economic conditions is the reason you are absolutely correct. The League of Nations extremes forced the Germans to re-arm and accept a man like Hitler. The Americans in WW2 had it right….rebuild after destroying….but latterly they have lost the plot. Their rugby captain is a good competitor though (Todd Clever)
26 Oct 2009, 23:49 pm
#472 4man:
you telling me they shot okes from 500 yards with powder and ball?
holy ****, i reckon those boers had a bit too much mampoer around the campfire and the stories got bigger and bigger.
26 Oct 2009, 23:49 pm
Anyone for tennis?
26 Oct 2009, 23:50 pm
#471 carol: You’re not going to duck out of this that easily…we agreed and you were “kamstig” still reaping wheat!!! Also you have some Roebuck and Wild pig that need thinning out, I still look forward to it.
26 Oct 2009, 23:52 pm
#476 4man: Will mail you!!
26 Oct 2009, 23:53 pm
#474 cab: No man….you’re not listening, they never used powder and ball in the Boer war, where did you get that from? They used Lee Enields when they ran out of ammunition thats what I said and yes they used to shoot men at up to 800 metres. The average sniper today whacks guys at 1000 metres and the record is held by a Canadian 2.7 kilometres with a 12.7 calibre (Barret rifle)
26 Oct 2009, 23:54 pm
#475 carol:
tennis? good god, next thing you will be offering pims…
just make sure there is plenty of beer and vleis, actually i’m sure that will be organised well in advance.
26 Oct 2009, 23:54 pm
#475 carol: boring you am I…ok I’ll go.
26 Oct 2009, 23:55 pm
#478 4man:
hondo mentioned something above. 800m, thats pretty amazing. i still reckon they were talking thru the mampoer. i mean you a springbok marksmen, what the longest skoot you;ve made?
27 Oct 2009, 00:00 am
#479 cab: Sounds just fine! Whats wrong with Pimms anyway?
27 Oct 2009, 00:00 am
#480 4man: Nooo….only pulling your leg!
27 Oct 2009, 00:00 am
Good night guys, and ladies.
27 Oct 2009, 00:00 am
poof, everyone’s gone, must be a koeksuster resep at RT.
27 Oct 2009, 00:01 am
Night All….
27 Oct 2009, 00:01 am
#482 carol:
just pulling your leg.
night all.
27 Oct 2009, 00:04 am
#481 cab: I used to shoot a Dragonov rifle (Russian manufacture) 7.62….with an 18 power scope, I would take a shot at a 1000 metres. When hunting I do not like to take a shot I am not 100% sure of, which means most are at 80 to 250 metres, but I have shot Springbok on the vlaktes at 400 metres (the rifle is sighted at 200 metres and with 168 grain I get a bullet drop of 21 inches at that distance, so it is quite hard to aim 15 inches above a springbok back or head (allow the difference for penetration in the body).
In competitions maximum distance was 500 metres…up to 2007 when I stopped at 400 and 500 metres I proably averaged 45, so 5 bulls and 5 inners out of 10 shots…this is shooting combat rifle with an R4 with a 4×40 Trijicon scope (simply put, all 10 shots inside a mans head at 500 metres.
Theres at least 40 guys in SA that can do that (also about 5 girls)
27 Oct 2009, 00:09 am
#488 4man:
1000m+ gotta be a lot of luck?
21 inches drop, quite amazing, whats its at 1000m+?
27 Oct 2009, 00:09 am
#488 4man: You have mail!!
27 Oct 2009, 00:16 am
all these skerpskitters and here I was thinking I’m the authentic Skopskiet. At least I don’t skiet Springbokke, I only aim at verkramptes using my gab as my ammo. That way nobody really gets too hurt in anyway, just a few ego’s along the way but nothing else too serious.
27 Oct 2009, 00:21 am
#491 skopskiet:
lol, but then again you were also in koevot skerpskieter 101, nee?
27 Oct 2009, 00:24 am
#489 cab: With a good rifle, not much luck at 1000 only reading the weather correctly and judging the distance correctly (if you dont have a range finder)
168 grain 30.06 bullet drop at a 1000…I cant remember that out of my head, I’d have to work it out and check it out….prbably about 2 metres.
OK I’m out of here, sleep tight all.
Good luck to the Vrystaters…but I think this is the Bulls cup on Saturday
27 Oct 2009, 00:27 am
#493 4man:
2m, yoh, night 4man.
27 Oct 2009, 00:29 am
Jeez, for a moment I thought I am on the homepage of “Soldier of Fortune” magazine or maybe even the site of Kaptein Caprivi (aka Cab)of the French Foreign legion.
27 Oct 2009, 00:32 am
#495 Robzim:
lol, its interesting, i am not a jagter at all, i once shot a springbok and for me, prob was the worst thing i ever did and i will surely burn if there is any justice cos it was not right and i did not even eat the bladdy thing.
27 Oct 2009, 00:33 am
#481 cab:
The Dragunov is a an awesome weapon, but if you lay your hands on the Semyonov semi automatic, this is the real deal, accurate up to 700m with a nearly M16 muzzle speed
The sniper handbook by Martin Pegler states:” Boers commandos using a mix of Long Lee Enfield and Mauser model 1896 were indeed extremly tough men,,, so accurate was their shooting that the night marches became thenormal practice for Kitchner troops”
27 Oct 2009, 00:35 am
#496 cab:
No, I am only joking – I am also no hunter although I have once shot a mossie with a pellet gun.
27 Oct 2009, 00:37 am
#497 Hondo:
ha ha, Hondo i will take your word for it.
for semi-automatics i thought it was the H&K all the special forces use?
rambo used an explosive bow and arrow, but thats a bit much…
27 Oct 2009, 00:40 am
#498 Robzim:
27 Oct 2009, 00:43 am
#493 4man:
Is that a 30.06 MOA bullet drop, or 30.06 inches at 1000 m?
If it is 30.06 MOA, then it means actually bullet drop over that distance is (conveniently) 30.06 metres.
If it is inches, then bullet drop is 7.63 metres.
#499 cab:
You are thinking of the Heckler & Koch MP5. Comes in a variety of choices nowadays, but the coolest one in my opinion is the H&K MP5SD…
27 Oct 2009, 00:44 am
#501 WP Till I Die:
By the way, if 30.08 inches at 1000m, that equates to an MOA adjustment of 7.63 for bullet drop, that’s a pretty damn good ballistic coefficient for that range.
27 Oct 2009, 00:50 am
you okes know your artillery, i thought they also loaded the bullets with a certain charge or grain for long range target shooting?
how does the T1 abrahams battle tank compare?
27 Oct 2009, 00:51 am
#495 Robzim: awesome. I can see them in there “Photo Comics” now.
27 Oct 2009, 00:51 am
LOL – i better hit the sack, cheers WPTID.
27 Oct 2009, 00:52 am
#501 WP Till I Die: Are you talking about Morne Steyn or Frans Steyn?
They seem to be still going as they sail over the crossbar to me.
27 Oct 2009, 00:53 am
#505 cab: What’s that under your pillow?
27 Oct 2009, 00:54 am
#472 4man:
As far as I’m aware, the Mauser Model 1892 and 1895 rifles the Boers used were chambered in a 7mm calibre. The Lee-Metfords and Lee-Enfields used by the Brits were .303 (or 7.7mm).
It was a 7x57mm cartridge (for the Mauser), with a 140 grain bullet, muzzle velocity of 3000 ft/s, and a muzzle energy of 2,390 foot pounds.
The British .303 cartridge (7.7x56mm) had a 150 grain bullet, muzzle velocity of 2770 ft/s, and a muzzle energy of 2,554 foot pounds.
The two cartridges were the same length (about 78mm).
4man, I think you are thinking of the (lower-velocity) Mauser 7.92x57mm cartridge adopted by Germany later on (1905 or thereabouts) and used by them in WWI and WWII.
27 Oct 2009, 00:54 am
#508 WP Till I Die: Eish. Are you getting back at me for my music posts Yak Skier?
27 Oct 2009, 00:54 am
#506 SodaJoe:
27 Oct 2009, 00:55 am
i was in the pub the other day and these british okes from adgansistan had just got back and they were talking about all this stuff, apparently they were flyhing guys in on the sides of the appache helicopters – i nodded and scrached my chin for a bit, and then dissapeared to the toilet for a ****.
27 Oct 2009, 00:56 am
#507 SodaJoe:
my Os du Randt no 1 trui.
27 Oct 2009, 00:56 am
#509 SodaJoe:
Speaking of yaks, I saw a Tibetan western the other day…
27 Oct 2009, 00:58 am
#512 cab: Fok boet. I thought it was your Chamelot Delvigne.
27 Oct 2009, 00:59 am
#513 WP Till I Die: Was that the one with all the Chinamen flying through the air?
Hot stukkie and all.
I think I saw the trailer.
27 Oct 2009, 00:59 am
#478 4man:
That record is 2350 metres, as far as I know – recently achieved by a Canadian sniper in Afghanistan, yes. It was definitely with a .50-calibre weapon system, but not sure that it was a Barrett?
That being said, the record prior to that had stood almost thirty years to Carlos “White Feather “Hathcock in Vietnam (I recall you said you met his son or something at some stage in the States?) using a converted Browning M2.
27 Oct 2009, 01:00 am
#514 SodaJoe: I skeem I must be the best ever Wikipedia user. That was quite good.
27 Oct 2009, 01:01 am
#517 SodaJoe: The Chamelot Delvigne French 1873 (also known as MAS 1873 revolver) was an Double Action 11 millimeter calibre ordnance revolver (11,43mm) of the French Army, developed by Belgian gunsmith J. Chamelot and French officer Henri-Gustave Delvigne. It was adopted by the French Army in 1873.
I was the kid in Kid Colt.
27 Oct 2009, 01:01 am
#514 SodaJoe:
waddefok? speak engels ek se.
27 Oct 2009, 01:02 am
#515 SodaJoe:
Not quite…the one I watched is called Himalaya. Saga about the clash between a stubborn, headstrong and ageing chieftain and the impetuous, on-the-up young challenger to his authority, all against the backdrop of having to make a perilous journey with their yaks along sheer drops to obtain grazing during the winter months.
27 Oct 2009, 01:02 am
#518 SodaJoe:
Whahahahaha!
27 Oct 2009, 01:04 am
#519 cab: You my friend can call me Monsieur Kid Colt.
Or Lucky Luke.
I still Francois Steyn’s kick wasn’t dropping after 1000m.
27 Oct 2009, 01:04 am
#488 4man:
Dragunov SVD sniper rifle, perchance? Does it use the same 7.62mm round as the AK-47 and AK-74 family?
27 Oct 2009, 01:04 am
#492 cab:
No I was in 5Sai infantry tho I did get my golden rifle badge which for an ex Springs Boys Hillbrow Hippie weren’t too shabby, who had to shoot left handed because my right eye is fak’d from 50 mt stand, raise and fire, 100 and 200 kneel and lie, and 400 mt lie position to get a gold score of 220 from 250 maybe not in 4 man’s class but for a dumb *** veg eating hippie ain’t so kak sleg.
27 Oct 2009, 01:05 am
#522 SodaJoe:
hehe, was watching some highlights of the season, frans steyn kicked some absolute monsters, even before NZ. morne’s one at loftus to win 2nd test, also 55m, with all that pressure.
27 Oct 2009, 01:05 am
#520 WP Till I Die: Sounds like dinner at home.
With my son as the fkwit and me as the fk-up.
Threatening him with the “Dark Windswept Abyss of the Real World” where there are no Sherpas or Yak’s to get you out of the dwang.
27 Oct 2009, 01:06 am
#522 SodaJoe:
Yes, a very flat trajectory on Frans Steyn:
FRANS STEYN
Calibre: Size 14-boot
Muzzle velocity: Awesome
Effective range: Awesome
Muzzle energy: Awesome
27 Oct 2009, 01:07 am
I did 2 years of the fkn army, and to my credit and ingenuity NEVER TOUCHED A RIFLE ONCE.
27 Oct 2009, 01:08 am
#528 SodaJoe:
That is very impressive!
27 Oct 2009, 01:08 am
#525 cab: #527 WP Till I Die: Seriously – 2 Morne Steyn kicks under pressure (Lions & WP) & The Steyn monster. Plus The Diamond’s fetching.
Great rugby season, seriously.
Those 3 events were pretty brilliant.
And beating the All Blacks 3x.
27 Oct 2009, 01:09 am
#524 skopskiet:
LOL, why is your right eye stuffed? from the scope or the shooting position? i cracked mine on the scope first time, but thats cos i’m a soutie. ja, its all you old south africans, can shoot the fleas off a bulls knaaters at 500m.
27 Oct 2009, 01:09 am
#529 WP Till I Die: Boet I may have been the worst soldier in the history of the SADF.
27 Oct 2009, 01:12 am
#531 cab:
Naah…sometimes we miss the fleas on purpose, depending on the Bull
27 Oct 2009, 01:12 am
how u never touched a rifle once, we had to sleep with the R1′s under our pillows like they were our wives, either in camp or out in the Caprivi bush.
27 Oct 2009, 01:12 am
#531 cab: I can pick the fleas off my balles wif my mouf.
27 Oct 2009, 01:14 am
#526 SodaJoe:
haha, patience old ****.
Just relax, take it easy.
Youre still young, thats your fault,
Theres so much you have to know.
27 Oct 2009, 01:15 am
#534 skopskiet: Fk that never went to the bush either.
I did play in the Light Horse Band. The trombone.
And I promise you I cannot play a musical instrument to save my life.
Except the iPod.
The Light Horse Band also skopped me out, and I had a career in Defence Force Public Relations.
I did play at 2 funerals believe it or not – I can do a kind of reggae version of the Dead March From Saul. Parp Parp pop di parp.
27 Oct 2009, 01:17 am
#536 cab: This parenting thing is the definition of the double edged sword.
27 Oct 2009, 01:17 am
#533 WP Till I Die:
lol
#534 skopskiet:
haha, bladdy ridiculous. one’s just hopes your wee fella was away from the trigger.
27 Oct 2009, 01:18 am
#537 SodaJoe: Car crashes if you’re wondering.
27 Oct 2009, 01:18 am
It is a very strange sensation to be away from work. Today was my first day of leave – 22 to go.
But there are also ten exams to write and three weddings to attend, two of which I’m a groomsman.
I am going to be drunk for the whole of December…
27 Oct 2009, 01:19 am
Ok I better leave now before I completely incriminate myself and give away my secret identity.
Au revoir. Tot siens.
See you through the window.
Take out the bullets.
27 Oct 2009, 01:21 am
My right eye stuffed because when I was a lightie my cousin n I were playing Robin Hood with a bow n arrow and he shot me in the eye when I went to get an arrow out the target. Cornea damage, had to shoot left, but play tennis and squash etc. right. Didn’t need to shoot anything or anyone in the army except a mal soutie Natalian took a shot at me from his R1 on patrol when he refused to follow orders about making camp in an elephant herding area.
27 Oct 2009, 01:22 am
#543 skopskiet:
That explains the hatred for the Sharks!
27 Oct 2009, 01:23 am
#543 skopskiet:
The worst I had was a dart stuck in my skull.
But a mate of mine was shot with a pellet gun (windbuks) right on his wedding tackle at close range by his younger brother.
The younger brother was faster, but the older brother was fitter.
27 Oct 2009, 01:25 am
#544 WP Till I Die:
LMAO, it certainly does.
very funny stuff, better be off, a whole night of kakpraat.
27 Oct 2009, 01:28 am
#546 cab:
Good night – I need to return to my studies. Bon nuit, cab.
27 Oct 2009, 01:31 am
just like old times we cracked 500 plus posts with just 4 kak praters doing the honours
Nag ou Gert
27 Oct 2009, 04:08 am
Could be that the majority of white and coloured players in South Africa just have better natural born skills, ability and strength.
For instance a white lad cannot run with a television set, DVD player and laptop while effortlessly jumping over garden fences. It just doesn’t come naturally.
We all have to find our niche and hone those skills.
27 Oct 2009, 07:28 am
#549 Predawn:
ya, and beating my 60kg bullmastiff to the wire carring all the goodies, making him biting the crisp, thin air of JHB.
27 Oct 2009, 07:37 am
I’d also balega if I had that monster after me. Prefer a staffie pitbull cross…speed as well as death on four legs
27 Oct 2009, 14:14 pm
we live in south africa. there will always be disputes about race, politics and quota. I am a big supporter of transformation programs, but I am definetely not a supporter of the way it is implemented.
The whole purpose of transformation is development. Development in youth is misguided by people “up there” twisted way of including quotas in the system. That will not change for as long as the ones in charge have a mind shift as to how to truely develop our youth.
Bottom line is that politics should stay out of sport! Sport is the one thing where people should be able to express themselves,live it out as good as they desire to, and excell in excellence!
Ricky should not be in the squad purely based on performance he shouldn’t. We all know he can “maak die pap aan”, and he does have talent, no one will deny that. But he receives a paycheck and all the incentives that the Boks do,and therefore falls into this comfort zone where he need not to perform well, prove something or put his body on the line to be in the squad. Lets take an example Francois Hougaard, I am not saying he should be in the squad, I just want to prove my point. week in and week out he learns, you can see in his physical condition he trains hard, he goes in hard, lookoing for work. because he knows he is in the queue, but that makes him be better! Why must young talent be lost, because Ricky gets thrown in everytime.
Same goes for Chilliboy. He is an great ambassador for this country, good leader and an awesome spokesperson with great diccipline in still training and eating right, that I will always say But because he is always in the squad (”comfort zone”), he will not move to get game time with another union being the 2nd choice at the Bulls. This in unfair in comparison with any other player, making career, even life changes in order to get game time, and actually play rugby in order to wear the green and gold.
I can go on with names of players falling in this comfort zone with great talent going to waste:
Chilli – Tiaan Liebenberg, Adriaan Strauss
Ricky – Jano vermaak (injured right now), Francois Hougaard
Ryan Kankowski – Ashley Johnston (he actually takes the ball forward)
Adrian Jacobs – Juan de Jongh, Wynand Olivier
Danie Rossouw – Willem Alberts(covering for loose forward and Lock), Jean Deysel
Jannie Du Plessis – WP Nel, Wian Du Preez (if beast needed a rest period)
Jp Pieterse – Lionel Mapoe
Don’t put players in the bok team, just because they are white/black/experience. Focus on the best 15 on pure talent!
Give these boys a go. Maybe they will prove you wrong.
I just feel, that these guys, they must be shaken up a bit. Give someone the chance that will risk so much more to wear that jersey!
20 Dec 2009, 00:54 am
Whilst a fully agree on selecting the players on merit, one must not leave untouched the question as to why after 17 years of unified rugby and over R100million spend on development by SARU, we still can’t field enough players of colour in the Bok team? Is someone at SARU wasting money, by not understanding the job they are suppose to do or to we simply not have the players of colour to develop up to the international stage?
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