Lions prepared for another fight
Manie Reyneke says the Lions will follow a similar path to the Jaque Fourie arbitration case if Louis Ludik and Willem Alberts want to leave to the Sharks.
Reports suggest that Alberts, Ludik and four other players have similar loopholes to the Springbok centre’s contract, which meant he won the arbitration that allows him to now sign for Western Province. Reyneke denied that there is anything wrong with the contracts, but said he is again prepared to fight for the promising fullback and eighthman.
The Fourie saga took nearly three months to reach a conclusion, and Lions CEO Reyneke said they would go a similar route with Ludik and Alberts.
‘The contract is not wrong, that’s the agent [Peet van Zyl] playing games again,’ Reyneke told keo.co.za. ‘If the players want to leave, we have individual contracts with them and we’ll go the same route we went with Jaque, and then see what happens.’
Reyneke looked a jaded man regarding the entire Fourie saga, and did concede there was nothing he could do if the players wish to leave to Durban.
‘Ive seen stuff in the press from them through their lawyers and agents – if it makes them happy to go, they must go. We’ve made them offers, we’ve looked after them, but there’s a lot of talent in this country.’
Reyneke was understandably disappointed with the outcome of the Fourie arbitration.
‘I am very sad with the manner it happened. If anyone is ever privy to the arbitration documents, you’ll see they admitted they signed a two-year contract, but got off on a technicality. You know what, it’s just sad, we fetched him out of school and gave him the opportunities and stuck with him through all the injuries he had. Unfortunately that’s the route they want to go – it’s a professional era and if he wants to move, he’ll move.’
The Lions have suffered a mass exodus of senior players throughout the year, but Reyneke was confident the future is bright, despite their best players being eyed by other provinces. Despite the senior side finishing a lowly sixth, the Lions U19s face the Cheetahs in the Currie Cup final at Loftus on Saturday.
‘If it wasn’t for the swine flu the U21s had [in August], we probably would’ve been in the final for that as well. We have good youngsters in the system, our recruiting is working, and look at our current senior squad – most of them are being hunted by other provinces – but 12 have come through our own schools system.’
Regarding the coaching structures, it is not yet clear whether Jake White will work with new director of rugby Dick Muir next year. Reyneke confirmed former Bok and Lions lock Johan Ackermann could be added as a forwards coach within the next week.
‘Jake and his company’s contract runs out at end of October, but there is a proposal on the table. But that now needs to change with the new coaching structures. Either way, we know where we’re going.’
By Grant Ball, in Johannesburg
October 29th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Blah blah. Rubbish dragons need to get there contracts acts together and hire professionals to draft contracts for them. Did the guy not pass Law 101 who acts as there contracts drafter..
October 29th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Yeah but you lost the last fight so whats the point of wasting your energy if you know you going to loose again
October 29th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I always quite liked Manie as he presented himself as an honest, down to earth type person.
But this is a load of tripe.
You know what, it’s just sad, we fetched him out of school and gave him the opportunities and stuck with him through all the injuries he had.
Manie honestly man, cry me a river.
The question that MUST BE ASKED is why Jaque, Alberts, Ludik and the host of other players WANT to leave despite the involvement of Jake and future involvement of ****?
If it is money, then the union (lions) have only themselves to blame.
But I would venture to guess this has a whole lot more to do with just money.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
and everyone thinks EP rugby has the monopoly on bungling administrators! Ha ha ha ha
October 29th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
in one breath he says he will fight it like in the fourie case
then he says if they want to go they must go?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Release them if they want to go but please do me a favour; get a f#cking decent lawyer who knows his oats…..honestly this is not funny.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Until they start running there entity like a business and not a goverment instituition with incompetent staff and structures this will continue..
October 29th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I can’t imagine why Fourie would want to leave such a successful union.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
For goodness sakes. Who on earth was drafting their contracts?
#3 PissAnt:
I fully agree. The question is really WHY these players want to leave the Lions.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
They tried this at the Bulls.
We opened up a legal can of whippass on them.
End of story.
That’s how a PROFESSIONAL union does it.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
#10 Tacitus:
They tried that.
They failed.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
#4 Transformation:
haven’t they?
that whole ecape region is rotten with corruption
October 29th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Dicky Muir must be pulling his hair out!
These 2 players are HUGE losses…Somehow D M gonna have to recruit aggressively…the current crop will give it there all but lack the class to be a top half super 14 finisher.
Man i am glad i am not in Muirs boots!!!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
DM ….Go fetch Saffas back from Europe…call Gary Botha…he will give you a list!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
tacitus its not about trying , fact is the lions contacts are not up to scratch and with all the nosence in the lions camp players got fedup
with the loophole they found a way out
i agree with PA , there is far more then meets the eye or what we know that is problamatic at the lions
October 29th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
#1 Winston: they can hire me, I have contract law 4th year level
October 29th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
#11 PissAnt:
PA did you read yesterdays article in the daily news re the **** muir appointment at the lions ???????
October 29th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Between WP and Sharks no one is safe!
Boland at least going overseas….[thanks Rassie ]
But wp and sharks must stop the blatant poaching…..hell we have 74 top players overseas…theres the targets….Now the Lions really on the back foot….seems no bloody loyalty to other sa franchises exists…war out there i tell you!!!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
#4 Transformation: since the Lions hired that former referee,I cant remember his name, its been downhill, talk about jobs for pals.Having said that I think Kevin De Klerk has a plan
October 29th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
I hope the WP and Sharks fane never moan or complain if boot on the other foot…
October 29th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
fane is fans
October 29th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
#12 charo: Howzit Charo. Just been trying to figure out a little problem with transport and customs, and thought of you. Do you have company email I can get you on?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Now sharks the moer in because DM allowed to do both bok and Lions jobs…i agree …a DOR should only do 1….
DM …if i was him…would try and influence okes to the lions…i know A Solomons got into kak when he did it as well…with 1 of Mallets teams….its actually not right…cannot be a slave to 2 masters
October 29th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
#3 PissAnt: Yes PissAnt, Have to agree there. Must something happening there at that union that none of us know of. Maybe why some of the players want to leave.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
#17 sharks_lover:
Missed it.
Is it available online anywhere?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I See Gary Gold reckons the Argie 10/ 12 …Santiago…is highly rated and said to be the next Contemponi….
October 29th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
#23 grant10: exactly grant, and i know dm is a very ethical person , but it will always bring him problems
but the report did say the matter is resolved
October 29th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
#22 JockBok: How you JockBok? Have not seen you around here for a long time. Must be busy mate?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Ai DM….perhaps you should of rather left this job to Heyneke….its gonna age you my man!!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
bloody thieving sharks….they stealing all the lions talent
October 29th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
#25 PissAnt: will get you the link
October 29th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
#23 grant10: My feeling is **** will look at the youngsters coming through and build a team of his own.
Remember he brought in a lot of youngsters at the Shraks when he took over. Barritt comes to mind.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
#27 sharks_lover: I am not cool with a D O R doing both….its looking for trouble….really not on…
Anyway…at least i can watch Sat final without fear of a heart attack….will support cheetahs…but bulls been brilliant this year…and it would be a fitting result if they do the super 14 and CC double.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
They can go. Ludik will not be the same after his knee injury and we have cover for Alberts.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
#12 charo: that’s **** talk ou toppie! look @ these lions!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
#22 JockBok:
got your sms.
i can try to get a transporter for you.
give me pick up and drop off details
October 29th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
#20 grant10:
At least these guys who Province and Sharks are poaching are being kept in the country, if they were not thrown lifelines they would be playing overseas.
The Lions have themselves to blame, they have been in free fall for ages and have not exactly done much to stop the rot, till now !!, but for a lot of players the horse has already bolted !!!
Joburg also not the best place in the world to live and bring up a family, the sun and beaches of Durbs far more attractive.
As for the ones that have already left for overseas, well we are up against the Euro, expensive to buy out contracts, these players will need to make their “own” way back !!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
#30 Martin:
So we no more poaching from the Vrystaat but here at the Lions too
We got to do what we got to do
Serious though I am not for players being poached from other unions. Something must be on the go at the Lions that we don’t know of that players are just moving away.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
Goodness
Julle’s darem ernstig vandag
October 29th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
#32 Puma: Ja…problem is Lions are long suffering…like wp…the fans want instant results….
And the fans all wanted H Meyer…or most of them…which will be like a axe over D M head….
Heaven forbid they lose Heinke V D Merwe or that Franco vd merwe chap…then they in there mo er!!
They will have to recruit at leat a lock and hooker and i still feel they need a 10…
October 29th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
#37 justrugby: Someone should have thrown Frans Steyn a life line and a damn huge one. Should have been kept in this country at all costs.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
What **** ..
We’ll sign for two years, take the pay cheque each month, take the rehab and medical expenses that the union pays .. and when it’s payback time, which in this case is just honoring the contract you signed, you want to find a loophole and run to greener pastures and quote, ‘it’s a professional era’.
What utter ****. How about playing for the union that carried you through the hard times until the end of your contract in 2010, renegotiate, or accept an offer from another province at that time.
Bet if they had a long term injury that would keep them out of action nearly the whole of 2010 they would have held lovingly onto there contracts they now trying to get out off.
Some honor, and self respect goes a long way chaps.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
#35 Transformation:
not talking about rugby unions only
your home town is a garbage dump these days. who’s pocketing the rates?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
#28 Puma: Howzit going mate? Yes, been quiet recently, internet so unreliable in Togo it becomes quite painful to try and do anything other than send email. I read the news and comments most days but can’t usually participate. Mind you, the last week or so has seen a big improvement. So fingers crossed.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
#25 PissAnt: give me you email addy mate , then i can email it to you
the link i gave is up for moderation , damn keo site hehehe
October 29th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
#37 justrugby: facts….but Gary Botha reckons a load of saffas waiting for the calls…must be opportunities…i wonder how ‘clever’ these okes are at the unions??
October 29th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
#40 grant10: They need plenty so did the Sharks when Muir took over. Remember he brought in Barritt, Waylon, F. Steyn. We looked a whole different team with the youngsters with Muir in the first year. That is where he will probably look. Some good youngsters coming through.
Muir no fool he will sort it out.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
#44 JockBok:
What you doing there?
Need an assistant?
I make good tea.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
#41 Puma: Ja….BJ AND CJ too!!!
At least JDV just gone for 1 year!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
#41 Puma: That one remains a mystery !!
Afraid the Euro won that fight, in fact a KO in the first round !!!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
#42 Paws: agree….i bet that ludick took the pay while he nursed his knee!!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
#44 JockBok: Good to see you here.
Time has flown in fast. You seem to have been in Togo for awhile now.
How much longer you got there?
Do you get any of the CC and will you get the eoyt games to watch while there?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
#46 sharks_lover: #46 sharks_lover: #46 sharks_lover: #46 sharks_lover:
answer me ffs
October 29th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
October 29th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
instead of paying jake….go get some recruits…and DM can do the training…..
Bloody hell….
Anyway…cheers all
Outta here
October 29th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Why ain’t it Friday.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Gotta stock up on horror movies for the weekend.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
#25 PissAnt: mate i got to go , check out iol.co.za and click on daily news reports on sport
October 29th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
#42 Paws: loyalty don’t put food in your stomach…..and pay the bond etc etc…..but don’t worry…here at wp we will look after him hehe
October 29th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
#46 grant10:
I read what GB had to say, the lure of the Euro is attractive, but not everyone can adapt to different lifestyles and cultures.
While no doubt some of the boys want to come home, the reality is depending how far they are into their contracts it remains expensive to bring them back.
If the player is not extra special i cannot see Unions being in a position to spend that type of money!!
October 29th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
what happened to that uber successful sharks development program, if they’re buying up all the free state & lions developed players?
October 29th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
#42 Paws:
I have mentioned this before.
It is all good and well expecting honour and respect from players, but what about the admin okes in the union? Surely respect is earned, not bought?
While these guys played for the union, you have seen the Golden Lions Trust being raped to the extent that the Lions were/are in such deep financial kak as an independent audit in 2006 confirmed.
You have CEO’s and Presidents being accused of all kinds of things.
You have coaches fired in the most dubious of circumstances.
You have guys being paid who has not played or pitched for work in over a year.
You have half your stadium sold off to a soccer club.
This respect and honour goes both ways.
If your employer is bordering on bankruptcy and constantly under achieving as a business, how do you think it will affect your personal career and future prospects with this employer?
The days where you played for a pack of smokes and a 6 pack of beer is long gone.
October 29th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
#53 sharks_lover:
Having a laugh here. I think you meant post 45 there?..haha
October 29th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
#57 Dawn:
Hi Dawn
Watching the Bulls slaughter the Cheetach’s could be considered a horror !!:)
October 29th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Arghhh, moderated. Must be the addy. Charo, you can reach me on jockbok2009 at yahoo. co.uk
#36 charo: Thanks mate, appreciate it. Details are, pick up 160 bags x 25kg grout from South Industrial Area, Accra next thursday or friday. Deliver Lome, Togo at your earliest convenience
I’ll be in Accra for a few days next week too, so maybe catch a beer. Just set up an email addy, jockbok2009 at yahoo.co.uk so drop me a line if it’s possible.
————-
Arghhh, moderated. Must be the addy. Trying again.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
#45 sharks_lover:
What you mean you have not got it???
Rob has it, do not want to open myself up to Keo spammers!!!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
#59 Martin:
No, loyalty does not do that, the pay cheque that they gratefully banked each month from the union they’re now trying to stab in the back did that for them while they were out injured.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
#67 PissAnt: nope i dont have ur email addie lol and keo puts the link under moderation for the article,
also i iunderstand not wanting to put ur email addie on here no problem
the article however is in the daily news of the 28th, so go to iol.co.za and click on daily news on left hand side of page
go to sport , there you will see the article
October 29th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
#62 PissAnt:
Did there pay cheques ever bounch?
Did they recieve 2nd rate medical attention and rehad?
Did they not get noticed to get call ups for highter honours?
Just saying, that no matter how sub standard the contract may be, they did sign at the time till 2010, and have been more than happy to accept the benifts.
It is not as though the union has now suddenly gone down hill, it was in this position when they re-signed till 2010 .. and now suddenly they are unhappy.
Utter ****.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
#52 Puma: Got DStv installed just in time for the semis last week, unfortunately for both of us as it turned out. But looking forward to the final and the EOYT. Still got another 6 months or so here so roll on the S14 too
October 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
#51 grant10: Grant The Dup Brothers have signed with the Sharks, its not longer verbal agreement anymore. I am a very happy lady today
October 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
#48 Dawn: Interesting. Do you also supply crumpet with the tea????
October 29th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
#71 Sharksgirl: and they signed for 2 years
October 29th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
#70 JockBok: Well at least you have DSTV to keep you going. You will see the CC final and eoyt, S14 too.
Ja, pity about our teams but that is how it goes. Now cant wait to see the Boks playing against France and Ireland. Players going to be tired. Lots of Boks in the Bulls team. At least the Boks in the Sharks are having a rest.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
#71 Sharksgirl:
Don’t be to happy .. contracts mean jack in SA if your lawyer is smarter than theirs.
Always a loop hole to try and exploit.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
#73 Sharksgirl: Read that last week. So very pleased about it.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
#75 Paws: Yip, you are right there.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
#10 Tacitus: But their contract were valid these aparently are not!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Is Reyneke on drugs? If all the mentioned players’ contracts have the same loophole, then surely JF’s arbitration victory has set the precedent and a fight is pointless.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
#67 Paws: when the ship starts sinking all the rats start making a move overboard. anyway i see your point but at the end of the day its the lions own fault for not securing proper contract…why is this type of thing not happening at other unions? it takes two to tango.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
#69 Paws:
But that is the point isn’t it.
They signed a contract at point X. Since then, a lot changed over which they have no control, but (it) controls their careers directly and indirectly either positively, or negatively (which seems to be the case with the Lions).
Contracts is not only about money, and getting a paycheque, contracts is a mutual undertaking by both parties to commit to one another offering each other the best working environment, and results they possible can.
If the one defaults on this which is clearly the case for me from the Lions union, you cannot expect the other party to simply remain happy.
It is time unions take some responsibility for their actions too.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
#45 sharks_lover: Hi ther Shark_L please send me that link too!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
#82 Sharksgirl:
The link doesn’t work, unless you’re a Daily News subscriber. Just tried it.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
#75 Paws: Lots can be said against Streuli, however not having water tight contracts for his players is not one of those! But I hear where you are coming from.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
#83 David: oh damn
Thank you David, spared me the trouble!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
#81 PissAnt:
Is it not strange how the union always seems to be on the loosing end?
When did there two player resign there contracts .. can you really say things are worse off now than then .. now atleast plans are been made to improve things at the union, so that argument does not fly.
The Lions union has been in the dumps for the last 6/8 years.
Can these poor poor players (my heart bleeds for the terrible conditions they must suffer in) not survive just one more s14 and cc for the union that carried them, and then negotiate in good faith with other unions for 2011, and they can leave with a pat on the back and a handshake for good service.
It does take two to tango .. but everyone seems to forget the players part in partaking in the dance.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Look at how Wikus van Heerden did things, how difficult can it be for the others.
We should also not forget the big role the players managers play in this, too many are out to make extra bucks for themselves.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
#72 JockBok:
How about some cake?
October 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Great news – Sharks blow your budget on the Lions and leave the cheetahs alone.
I guess this then free’s up the Lions budget – wonder from who they will start buying….. O f**k! We cannot win!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Hierdie KEO raak nou uit hand uit …
“Win a copy of TALKING BALLS”
“Win your BIG BALL TRADING CARDS collectors folder”
Sies.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
#89 adj nm:
October 29th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
#65 JockBok:
have sent you an email. my ops mgr will try to get someone.
give me a shout when you in accra next week.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
#86 Paws:
Well if their administration starts sorting themselves out then maybe they will not end up in the losing end?
And of course it flies, because you can go back every single year, for the last 6 years and every end of the season how it was promised that this time, this year (or next) will be different and how they turned a corner.
Just for the same kak.
At no time did the Lions agree that they be bought out of their contracts (i.e. be financially reimbursed) which is a pretty standard thing if you want to move jobs, but rather, the only reason they gave for not wanting to release a player that obviously wants to move was that ‘it is against our principles because then he would be playing against us’.
Now you tell me who is the party here that is not coming to the party?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
#43 charo: you must be living under a rock if’you’re thinking we have a “monopoly” on failing infrastructure! Wake up or come back from Kumasi, have you seen or heard about service delivery protests in the EC? Gauteng, Mpumalanga & Limpopo are burning as we speak!
In any case my initial statement was about bungling RUGBY administrators…
October 29th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
#93 PissAnt:
Why do you think the Bulls are not on the losing end where players like Wynand Olivier said no to a hell of a lot more money, a seemingly better lifestyle (in CPT) and opted to stay with a union where he is happy?
Then compare that to a guy like Jaque, who would risk reputation and possible huge financial losses and go to the lengths of legal artbitration to get out of a union.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
#95 PissAnt: anyone suggesting that the players are not being loyal is being trivial, when players are told by jake that they’re fat & not properly conditioned! Any self-respecting player who has Springbok aspirations is entitled to seek greener pastures!
Look @ chavanga, he’s been loyal to the stormers for years, his agent asks rassie about contract extensions, they dilly dallie and no answer is forthcoming, how professional is that? If the unions are run like spaza shops, the players must bounce i say.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
#95 PissAnt:
Jaques new wife was probably a WP supporter and told him she wanted to live in Cape Town if she married him. A choice between her or the Coke Tin. What would you have done?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
#97 David: all these bokke are getting married i just saw a mag cover with morne steyn & his bride @ the shop…she’s a pretty blonde, great taste morne…
October 29th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
#98 Transformation: The time comes for every man (and every poor woman
) to take a spouse, even for the Boks! 
October 29th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
#96 Transformation:
Its has got nothing to do with loyalty .. it’s got all to do with honoring your contract which you signed.
So .. if no other offers come along, the contract is fine and you expect your monthly pay cheque and what ever else goes along especially when injured, but when there is something else on offer, mind you, not form a small crappy union, a loop hole needs to be found and they want out.
Not taking any blame away from the Lions union, they have done a **** job now for a long time, especially when it comes to these contracts .. but what, the players smell of roses?
I say once again, when there was no prospects or better offers, they were more than willing to sign, even when the union in question was as **** is it still is .. and now suddenly they can’t bear to be there and want to move on.
Do you time, which you promised and signed and have been paid for, and then do business in good faith from there.
What has so dramatically changed at the union that they want to leave .. nothing .. just a good offer is suddenly on the table.
W Olivier is a good example, and Habana .. the one has stayed, and the other has left. The difference it that both there contracts were over and they negotiated with all parties in good faith.
It really is not that difficult.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Why the Lions didn’t just use the standard SA rugby contract only they can know. Basically an unprofessional outfit in a very professional era.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
now if i am travelling down a road and i see a fork ahead, two paths, and i have to choose one, i will do so knowing that i have forsaken the other path and, in most cases, a different destination.
now we have oom manie’s words to reflect on:
“Either way, we know where we’re going.’”
has the chicken lost its head?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
#100 Paws: i admire your integrity man.
you know what though? many times i have cursed vodacom and mtn for their prctice of tying us into 24 month contracts.
i wish i could find a loophole.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
#100 Paws:honouring a contract in a union that is going nowhere? People join companies & leave them for various reasons, career advancement opportunities of the lack thereof is one of them! If louis ludik was playing in a not-so-winning-sharks team, i guarantee you he’d be a springbok fullback. Why would you stay at a stagnating company when you know the market leader is gagging for your services? That would be stupid, rugby is a PROFESSIONAL with a short life span…
#99 Sharksgirl: i guess so…
October 29th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
professional career!
October 29th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
#93 charo: Thanks mate. Still waiting on email but no doubt i’ll get it soon enough. I’ll be in touch.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
No use arguing these matters. Those who benefit from these actions will defend the players’ actions (no matter what), and those who stand to lose will opose the players’ actions. When WP and the Sharks stand to lose players in this way we’ll see how they’ll come crying, and if the Lions stand to gain from it the Lions fans will argue that it’s a professional era and it’s been done to them.
Fact is that the Fourie case opened the door for many to exit from existing contracts (if they wish to do so) and those supporters now enjoying this will also cry foul …
and please don’t come with the story that it’s only the Lions contracts that are **** and not those at other unions. When the Lions go into a more aggressive buy mode (once Muir is properly settled in 2010) we’ll see how solid the other contracts are …
October 29th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
I am so damned sick of the Sharks and their opportunism.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
#108 pierre: what are you on about? The sharks have a world class rugby development academy!
October 29th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
#109 pierre: pierre booohoooohoooo cry me a river
all teams buy , a good example was done between the cheetahs and the bulls, only 3 players from each team are born and raised in the province they play for
go ro talk rugby and read the lastest article , might teach you something
October 29th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
amazing how people only see what they want to see
or is it???
October 29th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
#106 JockBok:
checked my outlook – damn email not in sent box or drafts.
will send again.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
hi sharksgirl dawling , how ru doing??? hows the famiglia??
hope you guys are well down south
the daily news you can subscribe free for one week
so go to iol.co.za and subscibe and you will see the article i talk of
i cant give the link on here because it gets moderated
October 29th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
#113 charo: hiyas charoping boet ^5
October 29th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
#113 sharks_lover:
friggen busy – thats why i am a bit scarce today
October 29th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
#113 sharks_lover: Hi there Sharks_Lover, We are all well, just very boring weekends now that the Sharks are out. But I have my white and Orange shirt all ready for Saturday
Its great to blame the Sharks for “stealing” players. The Sharks made an offer which the players could very well have refused had they wanted to. The same way the Bulls made an offer to the Dups. Which (oh thank goodness for the good admin at the Sharks) they turned down. Besides wasn’t it the player’s agent that approached the Sharks? Correct me if I am wrong.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
#117 Sharksgirl: you are right hun
like i said hun go to rugby talk just for a visit dont even sign up
then read the latest article about the bulls and cheetahs teams of present
only 3 in each team are born and raised in the union they play for
October 29th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
amazing how they always just point finger at the sharks
another thing is i am not sure if you are aware of it , but in the history of the sharks via the police defence force and other enterties the natal players were stolen and ened up playing elsewhere
they for example forced into the military in bloem or cape area , and of course pretoria
stransky is a good example of a natal player , played for the bulls while forced into military in pretoria cliffie brown
**** i can name so many
now we actually pay for those we take
October 29th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I thought it is professional honoring the contract you sign, knowing full well what you’re signing on to do when you sign it.
It is distinctly unprofessional to leave before the contract is expired and the job is half done.
Apparently it’s just me that thinks that way.
As far as I’m concerned, it is the same as hiring a tiler to tile your kitchen, and he leaves the job halfway because a bigger job has come along.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
#120 Paws: paws there is arguments for it both ways boet , i do feel sorry for the lions though , and i mean it
i for one would like to see lions rugby back where it belongs ,
October 29th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
#117 sharks_lover: Tacitus will tell you that Bakkies was not a household name when they bought him…they achieved greatness in Pretoria.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
#119 Paws:
Again it comes down to how the contract ends. Whether at the agreed expiry period or before.
When you end it before, penalties are incurred, like financial penalties to end a contract early. or in other words, buying yourself out of a contract.
Someone mentioned the MTN scenario earlier.
If I have a cell contract for 2 years, and I want to leave after 1 year, I have to buy myself out of that remaining year by paying the subscription I agreed to pay initially.
BUT the difference is, MTN gives me the option to buy myself out effectively honouring my contract. No one loses.
No-where have I seen the Lions offering this option to Jaque.
WP was not the first union he wanted to move to, or where rumours surfaced.
Before that he was linked to a French club – the union seemingly had no problem with this – only when he wanted to move to WP did they kick up a stink.
Something don’t add up there mate.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
#122 Transformation: lol tranise thats tacitus
uhm they never do anything wrong in pta didnt you know?
October 29th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
#122 Transformation: plus the oke still lives in the past , so be kind
October 29th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
My heart bleeds for tyhe lions….DM must be thinking is this worth it!!!
Poor bugger…
October 29th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Better that the players are not lost to overseas clubs ….for sure…no debate about that…i hate losing pokes overseas….
But i wonder if the sharks and wp should rather not get the saffas elsewhere?
I suppose Habana and JF made the approaches?? Or did WP??
And i know we coured the Du Plessis brothers as well…
Anyway…i hope Lions land on there feet….
October 29th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
coured is courted…
October 29th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
pokes is okes…
October 29th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
#107 Katsesnor:
I think what you say is right.
Its surprising that these professiional sporting contracts do not have an early buy-out clause, whereby the player is allowed to leave earlier than contracted, but only if the union is paid back or compensated by the new purchasing union/club.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
#107 Katsesnor:
There is no shortage of good lawyers in Joburg, let us all rest assured.
Fourie, like Andre’ Pretorius and JvN were never a sound investment, always injury prone stars who spent more than half of their spells with the Lions on the disabled list while collecting their full wages. It makes good sense the GLRU was actually happy to see them leaving, I won’t be surprised if in the near future there will be few un paid medical bills claims!
I believe it just a show to avoide the die hard Lions’ supporters making noise.
Wim Albert is a loss though, to lose 3 Springbok No 8s in 3 years’ not easy for any Rugby Union
October 29th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
#129 cab:
This is the shtik Cab, see my #130 posting
Players who spent more than half of their careers on the injury list will not easily find a taker UNLESS they are cleared of their contractual obligations to their union or simply ‘renegated’ on their loop holed contract with the Union only makes a token noise
October 29th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
However, these contracts also need to be carefully done, because a player’s value can often change radically during the contract and the union’s should not be able to lock young players into a 5-year contract where their market value totally exceeds that offered under the terms of the contract.
If Fourie and Alberts are going, i think Muir might want to reconsider his acceptance.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
#131 Hondo:
ja, its a very tough one, at least fourie gave the Lions many years of service so they got their pound of flesh to an extent – but players like joe van niekerk and willemse, upped and offed after a season – after they were thrown a lifeline by the lions.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
ludik and alberts would be gr8 additions to the sharks squad especially as Terblanche who is brilliant is nearing his end
October 29th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
if this was earl rose who wanted to leave, would the lions be kicking up such a fuss?
October 29th, 2009 at 5:11 pm
In a perfect world Sharks would rather have signed Joe Van niekerk and Brent Russell…
October 29th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
and lions Juandre Kruger, cj,bj, and Butch James….sommer Marius Joubert and J Smit at 2 as well….
October 29th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
now i would like bj back at the sharks
as for smitty he already said he will play for no other provoince in sa but the sharks , where he will end his career
butch as much as we love him at the sharks is injured and out for another 9 months , so thats a sad ending i am afraid
actually i wouldnt mind if we bought marius joubert
to me 13 is a big problem at the sharks
man why the fluck we let steyn go ill never know
October 29th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
thing is players like Fourie and Alberts can make or break a team, this is why okes are the moer-in and tearing it up.
October 29th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
#133 cab:
It’s no secret the GLRU is the least professional Union of the big four in SA, that has been the case since early 2000s when a guy name Van Rooyan became their CEO.
A common sense says such a multi contract farces could not possibly happened under the Louis Luyt regime, however, I still believe the Lions were happy to see Fourie gone
October 29th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
No team wants to lose the likes of Fourie and Alberts but in the end the game of rugby is a team effort where the synergy achieved by a group of players matters more than the value of individuals. Obviously players like Alberts and Fourie adds more value and therefore should improves the synergy, but they can be replaced and SA has talent aplenty. The Lions can find quality replacements and I’m sure Muir’s going to do some good in this regard. No player is so good that he cannot be replaced.
October 29th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Free State proves again and again that rugby is a team sport where synergy, and not individual performances, matters most. They lose players but still achieves success.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
#138 sharks_lover: Butch is back in January.
October 29th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
The Sharks have never produced a damn thing except cheque-book development and an ethos of dirty play. If you need proof of the fact that kzn is unable to produce players except by buying them, consider that they never won a single Currie Cup until the dawn of professionalism.
October 29th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
#144 pierre:
get your facts right before making a complete prick of yourself
October 29th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
#146 charo: too late boet he already crossed that bridge
October 29th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
The truth hurts, boys. Personal attacks are not going to change that. The team that won the CC in 1990 consisted almost exclusively of non-Natalians, just like every sharks team since then. Every single sharks legend is non-natalian. You know it’s true.
October 29th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
#147 pierre:
as i said, get your facts right.
since when was 1990 in the professional era?
jeez – some retards here
October 29th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
#147 pierre:
can only imagine you are a sad weepee supporter.
maties made you lot good in the 70’s and 80’s.
without them buying players through bursaries weepee would have been nowhere.
same with ntvl in the same era – die weermag het alles gedoen om die beste natalse spelers voortrekkerhoogte toe to neem.
suck it up boet
October 29th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
#150 charo: bro go check on rugby talk you will see a article from this morning where is show that from the cheetahs and the bulls, only 3 players in each team are born and raised in those provinces
they all bought players
but typically thses fools that have no idea love to point fingers at the sharks
hey atleast we pay for the players
for 100 years they stole out players in the name of defence , policing , prison services , afrikaans universities etc
now they come cry like babies
bopoohoooofuckinghoooooooooooooooooooo , hand them a free tissue
October 29th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
151. sharks_lover : Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 29th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
#150 charo: bro go check on rugby talk you will see a article from this morning where is show that from the cheetahs and the bulls, only 3 players in each team are born and raised in those provinces
they all bought players
but typically thses fools that have no idea love to point fingers at the sharks
hey atleast we pay for the players
for 100 years they stole out players in the name of defence , policing , prison services , afrikaans universities etc
now they come cry like babies
bopoohoooohoooooooooooooooooooo , hand them a free tissue
October 29th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
LOL charo yup us old farts hehee
October 29th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
#151 sharks_lover:
looks like jockbok and his bulls mate will be pulling into accra next week.
hope so, will be fun to have a beer or dozen with a weepee and bulls supporter.
will show them some local sights
October 29th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
#154 charo: sounds fun , hope you guys have a great time
good evening soda boet ^5
hiyas poppa ltnc mate ?? w/back ^5
October 29th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Oh boo hoo – you Lion admin morons were too incompetemnt to pull your fingers out for 15 years, and now we must feel sorry for you because your players are abandoning you in droves (and they can because of yet more sheer incompetence)?
All together now: AAAAAAAAG SHAAAAAMEE
As far as I am concerned the administrators are the ones that should be on performance related contracts. Your salaries should be halved for each year that your team does not win silverware. Then we will see how quickly the rats abandon the sinking ship ne?
and when you find that no-one else will take you because you are USELESSS, then maybe we will start seeing that sense of professionalism and support that professional rugby players need. I am still raging at the idea of them not even having a full time bloody physio for the Lions. Yet the administrators were probably all driving around in luxury cars… am I right?
October 29th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
#154 SjamBok: Couldn’t agree more.
they’ve run the union right in to the ground. And reaping what they sowed a long time ago.
October 30th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Don’t know if you guys know the full story, doesn’t seem that way so let me try and enlighten you.
The contract being declared “non-binding” has not got nothing to do with the fact that is was not a standard players contract issued by SARPA.
The reason it was declared as “non-binding” is because in the remuneration for 2010 it was said as “to be negotiated”. The Arbitrator declared on this basis that the contract was not binding due to Fourie’s remuneration for 2010 not specified, thus there is no contractual basis that forces Fourie to play rugby for the Lions next season.
The interesting part, is that the Lions did not specify the remuneration on request of Fourie and his agent. Reason being that they said Fourie’s market value would increase and they didn’t want him to play for a salary less than what he was worth. The GLRU agreed to these terms in good faith.
So, you decide if the Lions were incompetent or if they took the word of Mossie and his agent.
Rumour is that Ludik and Alberts contracts have their remuneration specified for the next 2 years. That is the only reason Fourie got off, nothing else.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:30 am
#156 WilladieLeeu:
FYI
When they interiviewed Piet Haymans CEO of SARPA about the JF contract about a month ago now… He stated categorically that the Lions did NOT use standard SARPA contracts. He added that SARPA had tried for several years to get the Lions and other unions to use SARPA contracts… to no avail…
Not my opinon… not speculation…
From the horses mouth…
October 30th, 2009 at 9:51 am
#157 ufo:
Everybody knows that.
But what I meant in my previous post, the fact that the Lions did not use the standard players contract had no bearing on the outcome. That was irrelevant in the result of the arbitration.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:55 am
#158 WilladieLeeu:
oh! okay… cool.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:01 am
#158 WilladieLeeu:
I have two simple questions on this whole issue:
a) Why were the Lions happy to release Jaque to a French club (if that came up) but not another union, what is this principle they refer to?
b) Why does Jaque so desperately want to leave the Lions going as far as arbitration? What is so pressing that he, his agent and the Lions admin could not sort out as grown-up’s behind closed doors of the union?
October 30th, 2009 at 10:03 am
#147 pierre: Like Morne Steyn is not From Tshwane, born in CT studies in Bloem go worry about your own sorry lot!
October 30th, 2009 at 10:26 am
#160 PissAnt:
It was the principle that the contract stipulated that Fourie could leave the Lions for o/seas teams but not for a local Franchise until his contract ended with the GLRU.
He singned and agreed with it. That principle.
Money, Money and more money. And don’t understimate the influence his wife had. Ja, the Lions are not the most succesful union in the country at the moment, but so is Province. So don’t come with the **** about wanting to play in a winning culture. If that was the case he would have moved to the Bulls.
Money and lifestyle.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:42 am
#162 WilladieLeeu:
Was it an actual stipulation in his contract?
That’s news to me.
Did you see this contract?
October 30th, 2009 at 10:47 am
#162 WilladieLeeu:
Oh and wanted to add…
Sticking out for another 6 to 8 months while wifey sorts out the new house and decor in CPT would not have been that tough for Jaque.
Being out of pocket by a couple of thousand for a couple more months would also not be the end of the world for Jaque since I am sure he is not actually earning peanuts at the moment anycase.
What has transpired with the Lions, and the lengths it went to smacks of desperation here, not simply a case of money and lifestyle.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Another thing.
I think it is easily forgotten that Jaque has been a fiercely loyal player to a union that has underperformed for many years now.
This whole thing was very sudden, very dramatic and very ugly.
So forgive me if I cannot help but think something happened here behind the scenes which we are not aware of.
As my dad said; “As iets lyk soos kak, en ruik soos kak, is die kanse goed dit is kak”
October 30th, 2009 at 11:16 am
#163 PissAnt:
Yes it was a stipulation.
I didn’t see it, but a source close to the team said it’s def, and it was widely reported when he first wanted to move o/seas.
What happened behind doors and if Jaque would have stayed a while longer, we will never know. The point that I’m making, is this issue has been put to the GLRU and they have been accused of being idiots etc etc.
When the fact merely is that they accepted a request by the player and agent, and that at the end of the day, that request was the get out of jail free card. So who should be accused of being unproffesional?
The GLRU accepted terms in good faith with Mossie and his agent. This was the thing that came to bite them in the ***.
What I also can’t understand, is he went through all this trouble to be able to go to Province, and almost three weeks after been released, he still hasn’t signed with Province.
What’s up with that?
October 30th, 2009 at 11:22 am
#166 WilladieLeeu:
I hope your sources is more reliable and honest than Keo’s sources!
I don’t know mate.
This whole thing is messy and a lot of things do not add up here.
October 30th, 2009 at 11:24 am
#167 PissAnt:
Let’s just say my sources has neve been wrong.
October 30th, 2009 at 11:50 am
ja look in fourie’s case, i cant see there is anyone to blame, the players obviously just wants to leave and they dont want him to.
its pretty sad from a lions viewpoint, but he’s been with them for about 6 or 7 seasons now, so its fair enough if he wants a change.
they probably should not have played hardball with him and instead asked him to reconsider for another year 2010, and paid him handsomely for it or come to some sort of arragment, but perhaps they tried all of those things and Fourie (or the missus) still wanted a change – so be it.
For 1 unclear year having been there for 6/7 years, he’s def given his pound of flesh imo.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
I saw on the ENEWS channel last night that the Sharks had signed Heinrich Brussow and will buy out his contract. Has anybody heard anything about this?
October 30th, 2009 at 12:35 pm
#170 Pepe: A guy with connections to someone close to the Sharks has said as much yesterday, can you give me the address to the site you read it on , I would be interested to read what it said as well.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
the sharks are splashing out – Brussow, Deysel and Alberts could form a potentially devastating loose trio – they are looking extremely well-placed for 2010.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
#172 cab:
And Kanko move to the Lions or Southern Kings?
October 30th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
#172 cab:
I also wonder where this leaves Botes and Daniels. So much for the Sharks Academy and statements that WP are forcing out youngsters by buying players.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
#174 David: Daniels and Botes have been passengers for most of this season, Daniel is a penalty a minute. A bit of stiff competition will do them the world of good. And if Rassie had got it right in getting Brussow would you be complaining? (Just a quetion not being facitious), and who is accusing WP of forcing out youngsters, the crits came mainly from WP supporters!
October 30th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
i can confidently say sharks are losing noone of the senior players
burden was sought by the lions but has turned down the offer
i cant confirm a rhodes or downey leaving or not
all senior players will be staying
October 30th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
#174 cab: hiyas cabby ^5 hows you/>??
even with that done i still feel we need a good center pairing at the sharks
hell we should never have let steyn go
adi and murray are ok but they need to find form
strauss tries hard but to slow
vulindlu cant catch the ball is probably the best suited for 13 with pace power and speed…………… sigh if only he can catch a ball , the kid has so much potential
October 30th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
#175 Sharksgirl:
It was the president of the Sharks Provincial Union who made that criticism of WP, a few days ago, when he was boasting about how the Sharks developed their players through the system.
Sure, I’d love to get Brussow for WP, especially now that Luke’s gone. But WP isn’t the one that’s pointing fingers.
October 30th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
#177 sharks_lover: Like Morne Steyn who couldn’t kick a ball over posts if he was 2 meters away from the posts who single handedly handed the home Final to the Sharks in last year’s cc with hard work he is now the premier kicker for the Bok, so too can Vulindlu Learn to catch the frigging ball!
October 30th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
#177 sharks_lover:
Why not move Hernandez to 12 and play Dumond at 10?
October 30th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
#178 David: Oh okai, sorry I missed that one, I was going from Keo posts, where can I find that article? If there is one, and not on T.V. The president then should learn about what they say about people sitting in glass houses.
October 30th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
#180 David: david i read the article and he isnt point fingers
just showing and explaining whats happening at the lower levels
everybody buys players wo sharks or whoever , and free state just as much
in the present bulls and cheetah’s squads there is only 3 players born and raised in thses 2 unions that play for them
its a professional era and i cant fathom why( and i dont mean you ) people still cry about a team buying a player
October 30th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
#174 David:
yip, Daniels and Botes, and especially should stay on as back-up, they are talented players in their own right, but not in the league of brussow imo, very few are, nothing to be ashamed of, just the way it is. the squad system is so important, bound to be at least one and prob more injuries to the loosetrio. the sharks paid for it with the loss of deysel last year, but they looking to shore that up with alberts. the two toughies from gauteng-by-the-sea.
#177 sharks_lover:
very much agree, the loss of steyn is huge, but hernanded will make an outstanding centre in the S14 against class opposition. hernandez and jacobs could be a very creative combo in opening up oppo defences on attack.
October 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
#182 sharks_lover:
What worries me is when provinces start hogging the bulk of the best players in certain positions. The whole point of the Super Series was to give playing time at just below test level to the countries top 150 players. That’s why we did away with Springbok trials. I still prefer the NZ system, where the franchise declares a squad of 25 players and the NZRU can then draft ones not named to a franchise that’s weak there or that they’d like to see get more game time. I remember a few seasons back when the Bulls had 4 class 9s on their books and other franchises were struggling.
October 31st, 2009 at 10:24 am
#156 WilladieLeeu:
Willa – the fact that 6 players at the GLRU had contracts completely different to the Standard Players Contract with incomplete information and even some of them unsigned, one contract even lost(!) by the GLRU, is statement enough that Mani Reyneke is out of his depth and has cost the Lions tens of millions of Rands.
Under him players are walking out the door because of administrative bungling and stuff ups, the stadium is empty, the management contract of the stadium is a mess – losing the Union Millions of Rands, racism always flares up, referees go on strike, sponsors are wanting to walk away because there is no value, the clubs are pissed off, the GLRU schools headmasters see or hear nothing of the man, there is no set of management accounts or business plan for the next 3 years and he sits behind a desk that has 6 1/2 meter high piles of files and papers.
Does this instil confidence in the Union?
The GLRU Union is in a meltdown and neither Kevin de Klerk nor **** Muir can stop this unless they cut the cancer.