Muir slams powder-puff pack
7 Nov 2009
Dick Muir admits the SA XV forwards grossly underperformed but was quick to fall back on the lack-of-game-time excuse.
The tourists’ scrum was embarrassed by a Leicester scrum spearheaded by Italy tighthead Martin Castrogiovanni, and their inability to commit numbers to the breakdown resulted in numerous turnovers. Muir said he was disappointed with the pack’s effort.
‘I don’t think I’ve ever seen [a South Africa pack] as bad as that, especially from a coaching perspective,’ he said. ‘We were given a bit of a lesson at the scrums. Hats off to the Tigers. They were incredibly strong in that department so we’ve got to go back to the drawing board.
‘You can’t play this game without any possession. We were poor at the breakdown and poor at set pieces so we couldn’t get the game going. We just move on. We came over here with an experiment and perhaps it didn’t come off as planned.’
Muir added that the one-week period to prepare the side was inadequate.
‘When you take a squad like this and have a short turnaround maybe you’re not as well prepared as you might be.
‘It will probably cause the guys to be a little bit more determined. When you’re on the top of the pile there’s a lot of sides who want to knock you off, so that’s the territory we’ve created for ourselves.’
Leicester coach Richard Cokeril was understandably delighted with the result. The Tigers were without five international players and were missing another nine first-choice options.
‘Our scrum was immense and Geoff Parling was superb in the front row,’ Cockerill said. ‘Rugby can get quite scientific in its analysis these days. Sometimes you just need 15 blokes to come here and roll their sleeves up. The scientists can’t quantify that. And that’s what we did.’
‘I’d have to take my hat off to the players. I read some criticism this morning about the fixture and the two sides that were put out. It was all about us tonight and the facilities we’re trying to provide. Maybe South Africa are a little shell-shocked that club rugby can be like that.’
51 Comments
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7 Nov 2009, 10:58 am
2nd string Dragons!
7 Nov 2009, 10:58 am
First of all the loose forwards never scrummed. Secondly Bekker is a weakness in the scrum. I said it a few times on this site and will do again. He is the new Albert Van Den Berg. Also… why do we still bother with Chilliboy?
7 Nov 2009, 11:03 am
Take responsibility ****! You want to leave true front row players at home. WP Nel, Buys,Wian, Adriaan Strauss, Wickus Blaau etc.
You chose not to have hungry guys like Anton Van Zyl, Duanne Vermeulen, David De Villiers etc.
Nah, you got it all worked out with your powder puffs. What did you expect. The Poms to lie down???
****, the Frogs and Irish want to eat our front row. You just didn’t get it when the Cheetahs vreeted the Sharks in the semi of the CC. Beast, Bissy and Barney are in for big kak.
It will be exposed on this EOYT. Facts! Live with it.
7 Nov 2009, 11:04 am
#1 Spies_Is_King:
4th string…
7 Nov 2009, 11:06 am
#3 The Jinxta:
Actually the when the Lions played the Sharks you could see that our front row was struggling. The Cheetahs just underlined it.
7 Nov 2009, 11:07 am
Time to get Os du Randt on board?
7 Nov 2009, 11:08 am
Muir said on Boots N All how preparation was going nicely. if you dont play regular rugby you should not be picked. You cant say you building players when it actually ruins them. Chili, Adams, Maku, Hargreaves – if you cant make the team find somewhere that you can. Derick Kuun must be a wonderkid if hes playing ahead of our number 2 and 3 hookers. Call up WP Nel and Kuun/Strauss/Liebenberg and Mapoe asap.
7 Nov 2009, 11:13 am
Stephen Jones is going to be insufferable in the Times.
7 Nov 2009, 11:16 am
#5 Hop Hop Spinnekop:
True…
7 Nov 2009, 11:20 am
Well **** thats what you get when you pick the 2 worst hookers in the CC and a starting loose trio that doesn’t deserve to be there. With such hooker and loose forward talent in this country, your selections were a crime.
7 Nov 2009, 11:21 am
#10 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): again you stupid little plonjer blind bat you fail to see the problem is with the props…are you bloody retarded?
7 Nov 2009, 11:24 am
#8 WakaNathan: Guess which paper I am not buying this weekend!
#1 Spies_Is_King: Bulls’ second stringers!
7 Nov 2009, 11:26 am
#11 grant10: Every cloud and all that…that should safely see the end of jannie du plessis’s springbok career.
7 Nov 2009, 11:26 am
#11 grant10: If only there was a SA prop somewhere in the Northern Hemisphere & used to locak conditions that we can call on…
7 Nov 2009, 11:30 am
#14 scar:
Coubus Visagie, Daan Human, Faan Rautenbach, BJ, CJ…to mention a few.
7 Nov 2009, 11:30 am
Sorry to say this guys but last night was a backyard bliksem. This was a 2nd string Leicester XV. And we were pasted.
I tell you what…the Irish boys are licking their lips. When you get to the top everyone wants to pull you down. And last night was a clear example. Arrogancy in selection and attitude will make this a water shed tour I fear.
7 Nov 2009, 11:31 am
#2 Hop Hop Spinnekop:
You can say Bekker is the weakness in the scrum as many times as you like but unless you provide some or other sort of verifiable
proof to back it up it is only an opinion that counts for nothing.
If he is glaringly bad that anyone can notice it, why did WP scrum so well in the semi against the bulls or do you reckon the other tight forwards were so brilliant that they carried him?
7 Nov 2009, 11:32 am
#13 ad_oz: #14 scar: About time…Jannie Dup goes…next week J Smit…then at least Boks can find a proper 3…
#14 scar: BJ and CJ there…as is Faan Rautenbach…breaks my heart to see a Bok front row be sp humiliated…
Anyway…gotta run
Cheers gents…
7 Nov 2009, 11:34 am
#17 Robzim: Between Rastel Brussow and others they blame everyone for the scrums except the props….bloody blind bats Rob…and i tell you i fear the worse next week too….
Bloody hangover …so i am gonna go wal;k in this crazy weather…
Have a lekker day…
7 Nov 2009, 11:37 am
#19 grant10:
See u Grant, weather terrible on this side as well, just like our performance last night.
7 Nov 2009, 11:49 am
#17 Robzim:
That is because the Bulls scum is not that wonderful with Steenkamp there in the front.
You want proof??
Have a look when Bekker replaces Bakkies in a Bok game and look what happens. Enough said.
7 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
#16 XV: They can lick their lips all they want. The team from last night (including **** as coach) deserve all the comments that get today (OK most). But the difference between last night’s team and who will show up against Ireland bear no resemblance. If it was the Test team playing against last night’s outfit (the one with Pienaar at 10), it would have been a slaughtering of the lambs
7 Nov 2009, 12:03 pm
all i can say gentlemen is tht we better pray tht the poms get pasted by the wallabies otherwise the media will absolutely humiliate the BOKS!
7 Nov 2009, 12:04 pm
The most ruthless, in your face, crunch, bare bones truth why we lost to Leicester is simple…
He would have made a HUGE difference to the psychic flow of the front row, 2nd row and back row, not to mention the flow to the flyhalf, centres and and back three. He is a colosus, a gem, a magnificent talent, world rugby team boykie, a giant among giants, a visionary tea-totaller, a power-house deluxe…
He has what it takes…all the way to victory.
He is the one and only, x-factor, effervescent , inter-galactic, redoubtable, moerse, rip roaring…RICKY JANUARIE.
Now put THAT in your weekend chillum and smoke it!
7 Nov 2009, 12:06 pm
ooops…colossus
7 Nov 2009, 12:17 pm
#24 The Jinxta:
Wow, why didn’t we think of that guys- Grant, we are poepols, we should’ve identified this new tighthead on the horizon!
7 Nov 2009, 12:22 pm
These damn players! Why did they pick themselves for this tour?
If only the coaches and selectors had a say, this team would have been way different and much more competitive.
7 Nov 2009, 12:23 pm
#21 Hop Hop Spinnekop:
It does not proof anything.
Firstly, they usually also replaced other players at more or less the same time (from both teams), so we are not comparing apples with apples.
Secondly, it is no use to compare Bekker with Bakkies, we must compare Bekker with Matfield (you do not compare a no 5 lock with a number 4 – different roles – you surely know that).
In any event I can not remember of any scrums that suddenly went backwards when Bekker came on (even for Bakkies). What match are you referring to?
So, it is still only an opinion as far as I am concerned.
7 Nov 2009, 12:33 pm
Never heard a coach blame the players before at a press conference. Sad really.
The players never picked themselves, the coaches did.
7 Nov 2009, 12:37 pm
#Grant 10,
Fact is three things/requirements about front row play stand out-
1. = strength such as in core-strength,
2. = technique
3. = timing of the hit
If any of these three are missing you battle. And then realize that class comes with maturity and age like good wine- think Os.
We can practice the timing of the hit, we can gym to build strength and we can hone our technique with coaching, but the three pre-requisites in tandem need to be there simultaneously for success, and it takes years to drill this into a prop.
We need to return to a simple formula.
What is wrong with Bissie and Smittie sharing the hooking berth?
Why not get Cobus Visagie involved via a comeback for two or three years to bring through the likes of WP Nel, and any other TH that wants to learn and be patient? And get BJ and CJ back to SA.
Why not settle on Wian duP as anchor and Beast and Wikus Blaauw and any other LH who wants to learn and be patient.
Why not get Os as scrum coach?
Is it pride or what. The solution is clear for all to see.
7 Nov 2009, 12:37 pm
Lets see here…
1. Cutthroat Steenkamp isn’t in the form he was in 2005. I like the dude, but he didn’t warrant selection this season.
2. Sweet-Chillyboy Ralapele competes with Bandise Maku for the 2nd place hooker spot in a provincial team. How do they get National Selection? And Chilly looked tired, not injured.
3. Dr. du Plesis is a solid scrummager, but that all depends on who is pushing him.
4. Danie Russouw is still brilliant, physical, and is the closest thing to Bakkies Botha. He’s the Brad Thorn in our side.
5. Andries Bekker isn’t the best. He blows hot and cold. His line out calls were OK, but failed to call the right lineouts at crucial times of the game. His defense is questionable at best.
6. Dewald Potgieter is a hard bloke. He’s the next Schalk Burger, but isn’t ready for international level just yet. Why wasn’t he captain when Sweet-Chillyboy got tired from playing his most rugby in the past 3 years?
7. Davon Raubenheimer surely doesn’t warrant selection. He has potential but he seemed a bit soft at the best of times. He made two mistakes from the two times he got the ball. His first play conceded a penalty.
8. Ashleigh Johnson impressed the most on the night. He was the only stand out player, but needs to learn when to pass and when to hang on to the ball. But should we select him ahead of Kanko against France? Probably not. He’ll make the most impact off the bench.
9. Heinie Adams was the 2nd best player for the Boks on the park. His distribution wasn’t top shelf like we’re used to seeing from FdP, but he’s real nuggety around the fringes.
10. Ruan Pienaar is a better scrumhalf than he is a flyhalf. Fact. His distribution was good, as always, but he seemed to be the only one making decisions, while the rest of the backs were following him blindly. Rather play him at fullback or back-up scrummie/flyhalf in the tests.
11. Nokwe was nowhere the whole night. He touched the ball and scored the try, sure, but after that he hardly impressed like he did last year.
12. Wynand Olivier also didn’t find the form he had in the Super 14. He’s better with Steyno on his inside.
13. Juan de Jong has promise. I’d rather play him than Adi Jacobs on current form. His defense was solid, but on attack he hardly got to show what he is really capable of. He had one good run that split the defense of the Tigers, but he had no support.
14. Odwa, like his brother, isn’t the fastest wing in World Rugby. They do the job, but that’s about it. Not to be harsh on the guy, but when last have we seen magic from the Ndungane’s?
15. Earl Rose. What more can be said about Earl Rose? He set up the try. It was brilliantly summed up and he did very well. That’s where it ended. Bob Failstad mentioned that he was playing a good game, but what he failed to see was that defensively Earl was out of position every time. He was an A.T.M for territory. Mauger gained probably in excess of 200 metres purely on Earl being out of position. When it’s turnover ball, a fullback must naturally retreat to the middle of the field about 40 metres back from the ruck. That’s taught at Bulletjie Rugby level. Only in the second half did we see the halfbacks retreat when it was turnover ball. If Rose plays like that against O’ Gara, we will surely lose.
The problem was in the forewards. They don’t know how to play with one another. They were everywhere but at the same time nowhere. No protection of the ball in the tackle, giving the Tigers ample opportunity to have a go at a turnover. Our scrum is in shambles. Even with our first choice side. Why doesn’t PdV enlist the services of Os for scrums? At the start of the Currie Cup season the Cheetahs didn’t have such a stand-out scrum, but at the end you could see the guys knew what they were doing. They out-scrummed the springbok starting front row of the Sharks, and the champion Bulls side. I don’t think Gary Gold knows enough to coach an international scrum. Poor selection will give you a poor game. But this game was necessary. We don’t have second stringers in our ranks for when our first choice players get injured.
7 Nov 2009, 12:37 pm
Ok so lets see what team we could have picked, and yes we will include a quota of more tanned than other players…
1. Wian du Preez (FS)
2. Adrian Strauss (FS)
3. Wp Nell (FS)
4. Wilhelm Steenkamp (BULLS)
5. Andries Bekker (WP)
6. Deon Stegman (BULLS)
7. Jean Deysel (SHARKS)
8. Duan Vermelen (WP)
9. Francios Hougaard (BULLS)
10. Burton Francis (LIONS)
11. Lionel Mapu (FS)
12. Wynand Olivier (BULLS)
13. Juan de Jong (WP)
14. Gerhard Van den Heever (BULLS)
15. Zane Kurchner (BULLS)
16. G Steenkamp
17. Chili Boy
18. D Russouw
19. D Potgieter
20. H Adams
21. R Pienaar
22. Waylon Murray
7 Nov 2009, 12:48 pm
#31 Spies_Is_King: You clearly can’t judge a game on it’s merits & cling on to your favorites. If you watch that game objectively you will see:
1) Earl Rose was the best back on the park. He did nothing wrong & everything that he did was good & effective. His biggest fault was not getting into the game more.
2) Nokwe had a good if not quite game. Did not knock on once, took his try well and tackled well.
3) Potgieter was all bluster but not effective. Not one of our players tried to turnover the ball. We let them have possession all night long – this is one of his primary roles.
4) Bekker was the most industrious of the forwards last night. I do not believe that he was great in the set pieces but after Johnson, was probably the best forward in our pack.
The above players are not my favourite (I like Nokwe to be fair) but you have to give credit where it is due.
Players like Russow (who I rate), Pienaar, HvM etc did themselves no favours.
7 Nov 2009, 12:50 pm
ROBZIM,
I am with you. Not Bekker’s fault that the scrums went backwards, rather the entire packs fault.
1) Both props were scrummaging against superior players.
Johnson had a good game, considering.
2) Chilliboy has not played in 6 weeks and it showed.
3) Maku is a talent, but not a finished article.
4) Locks were poor as a whole. Nowhere near their best performances.
6) Raubenheimer broke off every scrum, he did not help the Bok cause.
7) Potgieter is a lightweight flank who will struggle in the NH
7 Nov 2009, 12:51 pm
I would like someone to ask D Muir what exactly what his contribution to the Springbok side is? What did his backs do last night besides kick chase?
I don’t care what anyone says, if that game had been between 2 Guinness Premiership sides last night, at the death the ball would have gone down the backs. But for SA, no, the backs of no idea & no confidence. I do not believe that D Muir contributed anything to that team last night.
If I am wrong I would love to be enlightened…
7 Nov 2009, 12:53 pm
#33 The Bill: I agree with you. Whether we like it or not, Rose was one of the better players last night.
Bekker outplayed Rossouw the whole night.
There is a few players left behind in SA that is walking around with a big smile on their face after seeing last night’s performance.
I am not a Derick Kuhn fan, but I rate him higher than Maku, and Kuhn is only the 4th or 5th best hooker in SA.
7 Nov 2009, 12:54 pm
#34 BULLET: What we all need to realise is that Catro Giavani is one to the best (top 3) tighthead scruming props on the planet. It is no shame to lose to him, but the pack as a whole should be able to help someone getting such a pasting. It is cringworthy when I think back.
7 Nov 2009, 12:56 pm
#36 GP: I am no fan of Kuun – a walking yellow card & will always be a bit light for international.
I would have liked to see Chilli stay on longer. I have not seen enough of him but hope he lives up to his reported potential.
If he is not there, Strauss is surely the next one to be called, although the WP hooker, Liebenberg seems to be built for the Northern Hemisphere.
7 Nov 2009, 13:04 pm
It was like men against boys again! Which shows we have not learnt from our mistakes in the past.
What did we achieve from sending a second rate team over there to be totally embarrassed. The answer is absolutely nothing!
We should have used this tour to test the second best players in every position to truely test our depth. We would then have a better understanding of where we would stand in the event of injuries to our first choice players.
There are many far better players sitting around here in S.A.
7 Nov 2009, 13:09 pm
Just an idea, but i really think Raubenheimer needs to make the move to number 5, he’s tall enough (1.95m) light enough(99kg) as well as being quick and strong. He has a large ammount of potential – although not at 7 as he is nowhere near physical enough to make a side ahead of the likes of smith, deysel, vermeulen, alberts, potgeiter and louw to name but a few. As far as i can remember his lineout work for the griquas was alright but if he spends a few years as undrerstudy to matfield he should improve exponentially. I think that in him we could find ourselves a long term replacement for Matfield after 2011.
Last night he was nowhere, made a fair few tackles but apart from that was far too quiet.
7 Nov 2009, 13:23 pm
Bit rich of **** having a go like that at the players… Always a bad sign when the coach drops the blame on the players and accepts no responsibility himself…
If this was the worst perfomance by as SA scrum ever… Is it not the worst performance ever by their coach too?
**** calling the scrum bad is rather like a **** calling spagetthi limp…
7 Nov 2009, 14:23 pm
#33 The Bill: Rose gifted the Tigers over 200 metres. That’s something he did wrong. On attack he was good, granted. But on defense he was nowhere half the time. And the Boks were forced to play defensively because we never had the ball.
7 Nov 2009, 14:28 pm
THE BILL(37),
Totally agree , that was my point exactly, the entire tight 5/8 were at blame. Not 1 player.
I am guessing that the preparation was poor, as well as the choices of players / combinations.
7 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
SEMI,
Raubenheimer might be a player for the future. He could do with some S14 experience before he goes anywhere.
At 99kg, he is not an international lock
7 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
Muir should blame himself
The selectors are *******, most of the best 2nd stringers
have been left at home.
WHAT A DISGRACE
7 Nov 2009, 14:33 pm
******** Muir
7 Nov 2009, 14:40 pm
Between PdV and the selectors, they have picked the 2nd and 3rd stringers in SA and it was them who left out guys like, WP Nel, Strauss, Vermeulen, Alberts, v Zyl, Sykes, Baywatch, Stegman, Joe Peterson, Mapoe etc….
So **** Muir had to try and do do something with this ‘team’. I doubt if even Jake White of Heineke Meyer would have been able to work with this so called future of SA Rugby. . . .
7 Nov 2009, 15:01 pm
Wonder if PdV has come out of hiding yet. His bum-boy brigade have also been rather quiet. Nothing like a bit of humble pie…
7 Nov 2009, 15:34 pm
what shambles last night was -number of problems ,first of all the front row -has to be the entire cheetahs fat brigade-beker looked good but he was at very few rucks and when he wa at mauls he had such poor body position it allowed the opposition to push us back-ruby 101 -potgieter overated and to small imo ,should have had stegman -johnson was good -i think raubenheimer was out of his depth ,shame -ideal game 4 jean deysel,slower fields etc -as well as the likes of alberts -i thougt adams passing was great his tactical kickng on the other hand ,eish…pienaar ,whats happening boy?all the talent in the world and he falls to pieces as soon as 1 kick goes wayward -then the realisation that de jong is to small aswell -i wanted to see hat he could do a i rated him but i just think he is to small -dam we gave the poms something to talk about now and they are almost as iritating as bulls and wp supporters -lol =D
7 Nov 2009, 16:21 pm
who cares, its leister I suppose.
But 2 blokes impressed me, Earl the Pearl and Bandise Maku. Never seen Maku play more than 5 and I was impressed. Good work at the rucks, strong with ball in hand. I like him.
Most of all though, it was the Ash Johnson. What a boytjie!
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