Invest in the best
9 Nov 2009
The midweek Boks paid the price for Peter de Villiers’s selection policy, writes Keo in his weekly Business Day column.
Why the shock that a Leicester mix and match XV should so embarrass a South African Vodacom Cup XV parading as the Springboks?
The selections were terrible, as they were when the Springbok selectors looked to the future in the third and final Test against the British & Irish Lions and were similarly embarrassed.
At times too much is made of the future, and this is one of those times. Let’s focus on what happens in 2009 before wondering how our rugby will be in 2012, let alone the 2011 World Cup year.
The best players in the Currie Cup were not selected for the midweek side’s two matches in England. Coach Peter de Villiers wanted to make a statement about transformation and also about the fact that the provincial coaches are getting it wrong and he is getting it right. On both counts he failed, although to blame him for the defeat is wrong, as he had nothing to do with the coaching of the team, if you can call three sessions coaching the team.
Touring teams always struggle in the first fortnight of a tour and that is why so many of the success stories on end of year tours relate to national coaches investing in those who have succeeded as a unit in the domestic season. That way a national coach does not have to reinvent the wheel and does not have to try and teach players a specific approach in two or three training runs. The national coach trusts that he can tweak a provincial formula that has been successful and invests in the familiarity players get when they have functioned in a unit for the last six months.
De Villiers and his selectors did neither and paid the price for holding a trial game to assess how good the reserve depth is, which in itself was ridiculous because Leicester, by way of England commitments, another league match on Sunday and injuries, played without 12 first team regulars. For these imposter Boks to have lost to the best Leicester has on contract would not be a surprise, but to have been bullied and outthought by a couple of former All Blacks, a few other imports and mostly an Academy team is humiliating.
The Bok scrum disintegrated and hooker Chiliboy Ralepelle’s reputation took as big a beating. Ralepelle was supposed to be one of the new generation of South African player who would only be judged on ability because he was that good as a 19 year-old, but political agendas have again turned a quality talent into a professional quota. It is sickening.
Ralepelle should not have been on tour and belatedly Adriaan Strauss and Wian du Preez of the Cheetahs have been summoned to England to replace Ralepelle and Gurthro Steenkamp.
What does the Leicester defeat say about the depth of player outside the marvelous Bok Test XV that has dominated world rugby for the past few years? It says nothing because what we saw was not the next best on show. You could have picked any one of the Currie Cup semi-finalists as a unit and they would have thumped what Leicester put out as a team. Why is it that so often the Springbok midweek team does not reflect the best fringe players? It is not just something unique to the current coach and his selectors. We’ve seen this horror movie so many times.
If a national coach wants to take an Emerging team abroad then do so, but don’t call them the Springboks because Leicester, as an example, now have the famous Springbok head as a scalp in the clubhouse. It should never have been so.
The defeat does not influence anything in relation to Friday evening’s Test against France because the real Springboks will be playing in Toulouse, although the depth test here is more accurate because what will be answered is if the Boks have the same fluidity, stability and direction without Frans Steyn’s boot at the back, Jean de Villiers’s organization in the midfield and the power of Juan Smith and Pierre Spies in the back row.
This will be the Springboks’ toughest test of the year and to win they will have to play as well or better than at any stage this season. France are the best of the northern hemisphere teams and playing in Toulouse on a Friday night certainly gives the a greater advantage than the neutrality so often experienced at the Stade de France in St Denis, just outside Paris.
The Boks love that ground, but they’ve never played in Toulouse, which makes the decision to arrive in Toulouse 36 hours before kick-off even more of a risk.
170 Comments
9 Nov 2009, 13:09 pm
I agree. The selection of this side was an absolute disgrace.
9 Nov 2009, 13:11 pm
Probably one of your more objective readings in a long while, Keo. Have to agree with most of what you say here.
9 Nov 2009, 13:13 pm
tell us something new, Keo.
9 Nov 2009, 13:13 pm
thou shall not question Twakkie DeVilliers thinking.
At any time,ever.
Because if you do,
you are racist.
Everyone on the entire planet know how good Earl Rose and Ralapelle are.
9 Nov 2009, 13:15 pm
should have just picked all the Bulls.
they won the S14 and CC you know?
9 Nov 2009, 13:16 pm
To be fair….playing a game just 6 days after a CC final and utilizing players(Guthro definately) from that selfsame game, wasn’t a bright idea either.
9 Nov 2009, 13:16 pm
even griquas would have done better.
9 Nov 2009, 13:17 pm
Congrats Keo,good article.
Agree on most points,particularly on this building 4 the future thing.The side that played on Friday was not the best of the rest.I sometimes think that when the selectors pick the so called 2nd best,they throw a few names into the head and picks the 1st few names that come out.
I am of the opinion that this defeat could just b the wake-up call that we need 4 the up-coming test.The side will in all likelywood put alot of emphasis on the things like the scrums and breakdown that did not go well.And we will b alot more focussed as I suspect that the squad as a whole would not take this defeat well.
So I predict that the Boks will bounce back on Friday and grind out a 5 point win against the French.
9 Nov 2009, 13:18 pm
Reminds me of those dark days in Springbok rugby round about 2002 and 2003 where these issues were there for all to see….
Results from 2002 include losing to France (10-30), to Scotland 6-21 (too painful to remember)and (off course) to England 53-3.
9 Nov 2009, 13:21 pm
At any time,ever.
Because if you do,
you are racist.
iam so sick of people pulling out the race card hopefully it wont work for ever
france is going to be tough they are the only other team to beat the abs this year
9 Nov 2009, 13:21 pm
#9 scar: We did defeat Argentina that year (one point in it), and were slaughetered in the quarter finals of the (2003) World Cup. Compared to those standards we are living in paradise now!
9 Nov 2009, 13:27 pm
Keo….. France are the best of the northern hemisphere teams? Please explain that one to me. I am sure you have an opinion but I also think the Irish will disagree with you. Especially since they won the 6-Nations this year.
9 Nov 2009, 13:31 pm
#12 XV: France finished 3rd in the 6N beaten by England and Ireland.
9 Nov 2009, 13:31 pm
so how are you guys going to spend your Keo dollars?
9 Nov 2009, 13:31 pm
Apologies for continueing with this blast from the past:
Springbok team that lots to Scotland in 2002:
Greeff (Western Province); Paulse (W Province), Jacobs (Falcons, Pretorious ; Lions, 56), Fleck (W Province), Lombard (Cheetahs); James (Natal), Conradie (W Province); Roux (Blue Bulls), Biljon (Natal), Carstens (Natal; Van der Linde , Cheethas, 77), Wentzel (Pumas); AJ Venter , Natal, 65), Labuschagne (Lions), Krige (W Province, capt), Uys (Pumas), Niekerk (Lions)
Afterwards coach Rudolph Strauli said: “Any game you lose in a Springbok jersey is emotional. Twickenham may feel the backlash, although on the evidence of this performance, and that in France, it would be a considerable upset if England did not win”
If only he knew that one of the darkest days in Springbok rugby was waiting around the corner.
So the more history repeats itself, the more it stays the same…
9 Nov 2009, 13:33 pm
#4 Brigadier Van Zyl: What a moronic comment.
Anyone could see that Earl was the best player on the park on Friday evening – not that that is saying very much.
And yet you choose to criticise him instead of (for example) Ruan Pienaar.
Not everyone who criticises De Villiers is racist, Brigadier. But you, clearly, are.
9 Nov 2009, 13:34 pm
keo says it is the springboks and his sidekick simon says it’s not.looks like a case of keo and his boys not singing from the same hymn sheet.
9 Nov 2009, 13:35 pm
what a load of bullshit. thats why you are not allowed near the bok team Keo.
9 Nov 2009, 13:37 pm
#16 pierre: Disagree, Ashley Johnson was the best player – am I guilty of something saying that? Or is it just the retired military that passes judgement
9 Nov 2009, 13:37 pm
Earl is settling into the full back role, surprise call up to the test team??
9 Nov 2009, 13:38 pm
no but everytime pierre some one doesnt agree with pdv he calls them a rascist i thik thats wat bridadier was trying to say
pdv must not hide behind the race card we all come under fire from time to time thats life
9 Nov 2009, 13:43 pm
#19 scar: Ashley was good in parts, but he missed a couple of tackles.
Potgieter is a good player but he was out of position. That’s part of the reason why we kept losing ball at the breakdown – no real openside flank.
Francois Hougaard was very impressive. If he had started, the result might even have been different.
Juan de Jongh was pretty good.
And those are really the only positives we can take from that match.
9 Nov 2009, 13:44 pm
klippies, go read the comments on this site and you will find a good reason why racism is still such a hot topic. perhaps you should read your comments that you left in the klippies
induced swagger after games.
9 Nov 2009, 13:46 pm
just because Rose didn’t **** up as much as he usually did last Friday….doesn’t mean he is supposed to be there in the first place.
On the other hand….Pienaar oh-so-obviously is one of the top 30 players in SA.
Just not at flyhalf….as Twakkie keeps insisting or not without a Mauger(Morne Steyn possibly) type 12 outside him.
9 Nov 2009, 13:47 pm
#21 klippies101: So what do you say to John Smit in his book expressing the same sentiments? That 90% of those whom critisizes PDV does so because they can not except the fact that a black coach knows more than a white coach?
9 Nov 2009, 13:47 pm
i agree that the selections were a bit of a shocker, but the fact is that we really lost this game in the front row. i agree ralapelle is not in the squad on merit – we’re stating the obvious here because he’s second choice at the bulls. however i was a bit shocked at how steenkamp and du plessis were destroyed in the scrums, and their capitulation is where our demise began on Friday night. du plessis has been average all season, and has never been a particularly great player, but let’s be honest here – very few of us were picking these guys as the shock selections prior to Friday night. they have been with the test side all year, and steenkamp as been first choice in a bulls side that has won the s14 and the cc this year, and never looked particularly week in the scrums.
i think that these two and several others have been under pressure from good young players coming through, and so in that sense we learned something valuable on Friday night. I also think that scrumming is more about 8 guys working together with synergy, and so in some ways, a bad performance from a group of players thrown together for 4 days, against a team that train together all the time, is not a huge shock.
9 Nov 2009, 13:47 pm
I am torn here. The defeat was just so disappointing, but I wonder whether the new generation of coaches really respects that Bok tradition enough anymore to care about mid-week sides losing.
The EOYT has not really been taken seriously until Jake used it to put a marker down for the 2007 WC.
They seem to be far more interested in how youngsters will handle the additional pressure and pace.
Who knows… are they wrong?
9 Nov 2009, 13:51 pm
#24 Brigadier Van Zyl: Ruan one of the top 30 in SA?
Maybe before Friday. But not any more. I certainly don’t think so. Neither so any of my (white, male, rugby-obsessed, ex Rondebosch) friends.
If any black player had had as many squandered chances as Ruan, or had such repeated brain-fails and lack of BMT, you would be screaming blue murder if anyone suggested that they are still one of the top 30 in SA.
Total double standard. Earl has a very good game, and you react by saying that he shouldn’t have been given the opportunity to have a good game.
Ruan goes down in flames and abject humiliation, and you react by saying he’s still one of the top 30.
Absurd.
9 Nov 2009, 13:51 pm
#22 pierre: good players can dont become bad. As a loosie you have to fetch when required.Potgieter was nowhere. Hougaard got isolated and left the base of the loose without a scrumhalf. He took the wrong option everytime he got hold of the ball(instead of passing). He does not have the vision that players like rickie and fourie have.
9 Nov 2009, 13:55 pm
#29 ruffle: Well yeah, you’re right, but I am making allowances for Dewald and Francois because they are both very young and inexperienced.
I don’t think it’s so easy for a blindsider to adjust to the fetching role. Even Joe van Niekerk (a truly great no 8 and no 7 in my opinion) coudln’t do it when called upon by Jake White.
Hougaard certainly upped the tempo of the service that the backline had been getting from Heini.
9 Nov 2009, 13:57 pm
#17 Valkyrie: Saru calls them the South Africa XV but the reality is that they are a Springbok side and the players are now Springboks. Just like Kevin Putt is a Springbok because he played for the midweek team (but didn’t play a Test) and Gus Theron is a Springbok (even though he never played after breaking his leg)
9 Nov 2009, 13:57 pm
for me, the guys who can be proud of their individual performances are bekker, johnson, deysel (albeit that his was a cameo role), adams, olivier, de jongh (bearing in mind that our centres got hardly any ball, and defended well) and earl rose. i think our wings can’t really be judged on a performance where they received no ball. potgieter and roussouw were solid without shining.
earl rose showed how well he’s capable of playing – it’s just infuriating that he is so inconsistent. I still think that if a guy like **** muir at the lions can get this guy to approach his game with some discipline he’s got some potential. he needs to pick up about 5kg in the gym and, settle into one position, which i believe is flyhalf. if he could bring some structure to his play – for example play to strict instructions to first get his team into the opposition half and then attack the opposition, then he could be good to watch. i’m just not sure if his failure to do this so far is based on the fact that noone is giving him consistent, specific guidance, or that he refuses to be guided.
9 Nov 2009, 14:02 pm
#28 pierre: And here you show your own double standards let me quote: “Potgieter is a good player but he was out of position. That’s part of the reason why we kept losing ball at the breakdow”
But then “If any black player had had as many squandered chances as Ruan, or had such repeated brain-fails and lack of BMT”
Ruan is a good Scrum half, not a flyhalf. He is being played as much out of position as your dear Potti who without Stegman was quite frankly nowhere on the pitch! Besides lets wait for a few seasons so they can move Potgieter all over the parck as they have done to Ruan and see if he will maintain his game or whether he will also go “down in flames and abject humiliation”.
9 Nov 2009, 14:02 pm
rose needs to bulk up alot i think he is to small for international rugby
9 Nov 2009, 14:03 pm
#31 Simon: Do all tour players get Springbok colours?Surely Maku/Hargreaves could go and become eligible for England for example, as they haven’t played for the senior side, or 7′s side?
Springboks should only be people that have played in a Test. I doubt Putt/Theron call themselves Springboks, but I wouldn’t know.
9 Nov 2009, 14:04 pm
Obviously there is political pressure from the ANC to demonstrate their commitment to transformation.
That is why you will never have the 2nd best team play in these midweek matches.
I think that is abundantly clear when you have chiliboy as captain, it tells you what the objective is. The only thing you can hope is that a few players will play themselves into contention for the Test 22.
Some may surprise you, for example Ashley Johnson showed that he is the man for the big occasion after his superb and consistent Currie Cup.
The ANC just have a way to screw something up. When given a choice between 2 ie right and wrong, more often than not, they will choose the wrong one with conviction. In that regard, they ensure continuity with what the Nats started.
9 Nov 2009, 14:08 pm
#36 Sheriff: so which players who played on friday and dissapointed were the anc transformation picks?
9 Nov 2009, 14:09 pm
#28 pierre:
Rose has had plenty of opportunities, maybe not with the Boks but definately with the CC and S14.Sooner rather than later he is generally dropped by his union coach to go and work on some or other “technical” shortcoming.
He is kak.
everyone knows this.
pienaar on the other hand keeps getting plenty of opportunities as a 10 at international level.nothing at CC and S14 level. He is not a 10, he is the next best 9 for sure.
everyone knows this as well.
I am well within my rights to label Rose ****.All consistent evidence points to this.
9 Nov 2009, 14:10 pm
Apparently Joost vd Westhuizen reveals in his latest book that he did not like the Communications Manager at the time, Mark Keohane.
From what it sounds like, its a boring book and that is one of the few new facts that the reader will learn. The rest has all been covered in the prev book and recent news articles.
9 Nov 2009, 14:12 pm
i love rugby books cant wait to get my hands on his book.
cornes book and gary tiechmans were good reads
9 Nov 2009, 14:15 pm
#39 Sheriff: Why, was Keohane too truthful? Too ready to point out the actual happenings in the team? Unlike liar-boy Joost
9 Nov 2009, 14:15 pm
#37 ruffle:
We should ask them for a list.
Its not enough that soccer is such an embarrassment to SA, not to mention the Caster saga in athletics.
They will learn in time that they too are subject to natural laws like gravity. Who would have thought that a Black Govt will be as arrogant as these blokes 20 yrs ago?
Photo finish between them and Nats.
It does not take a rocket scientist to see that they will inevitably fall.
9 Nov 2009, 14:16 pm
#13 Big Hit:
That is my point. Keo called France the best of the north. Not based on results Keo. Ireland are the best.
9 Nov 2009, 14:19 pm
#40 klippies101: Is it a rugby book? Seems more like a Days of Our Lives, Heat magazine, Celebrity type of book. Is there new rugby news in there?
9 Nov 2009, 14:20 pm
#41 Mutant:
A few years ago, I would given Keohane the benefit of the doubt, without hesitation.
But 2009 was a turning point. I started reading a content with 80% agenda here this year. Coincided with the establishment of the Winning Ways.
He no longer writes what he sees, instead he first establishes the agenda and then writes accordingly. SAB still regards that “provocative” enough…
9 Nov 2009, 14:20 pm
#37 ruffle: Ashley, Maku, Chillie, Gutro, Raubenheimer, Jongi, Odwa, de Jong, Adams and Earl. In the test match 22 the following players will be ANC transformation picks: JPP, Habana, Beast and Adi.
9 Nov 2009, 14:23 pm
#46 John1976:
Thanks for enlightning me about who should not be springboks according to the enlightened few on this website.
9 Nov 2009, 14:24 pm
#42 Sheriff: #42 Sheriff: Sheriff you should not be afraid to name and shame them. It is your right to express your beliefs and you should not feel intimidated.
9 Nov 2009, 14:25 pm
“Let’s focus on what happens in 2009 before wondering how our rugby will be in 2012, let alone the 2011 World Cup year.”
and that is the quintessential feature of test rugby that the rotators and newcap armchair critics totally misunderstand – there is a reason the test XV is better than the rest.
9 Nov 2009, 14:27 pm
#22 pierre: Ashley missed one tackle. One where he raced to the back (and was sidestepped with his momentum in the opposite direction), when Earl was out of position. Earl was out of position just about the entire game! He had 2 or 3 good runs, but in defense he couldn’t read the game efficiently.
So, yeah. Johnson was the best player on the field. He read the game (from the opposite side of the field) better than Rose.
9 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
Of course.
Stupid team was picked. Stupid decisions from snor face. What’s new – he didnt have his experienced brians trust of senior players to dig him out of the **** hole he got himself into.
9 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
#46 John1976: You are a racist ****-jockey. How can you even write this cr@p. Go bury your head in the sand and pray to Verwoerd
9 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
#45 Sheriff: Well I reckon he consumes enough of SAB’s products before he can pluck the courage to wirte the **** that he has been dishing up.
9 Nov 2009, 14:31 pm
#33 Sharksgirl: If I was interested in the opinion of a teenage girl I’d watch Hannah Montana.
9 Nov 2009, 14:32 pm
#37 ruffle: Rallepelle, Maku, Nokwe, Raubenheimer, Steenkamp and Rose.
9 Nov 2009, 14:33 pm
well iam sure joost will have good tales of playing for the boks he did win a world cup medal and tri nations right ?
so it will be a good rugby book
i agree with keo france r a great side they did beat the abs this year in nz and only team to beat them this year besides the boks
9 Nov 2009, 14:33 pm
I think I should come write for keo.co.za
The above article sentiments exactly what i posted on one of the articles last week.Predicted a loss, because of the very reasons pointed out by in this very article.I still had arguments from everybody at the time.
Why, oh why is it that PDV seems to only make the correct call when its forced upon him or he has learnt his lesson the hard way???the public seem to know whats best before he does
Eg…..
2008- bad year, because he tried to re-invent the wheel
2009- great year, played to the strengths that we all
said should not be tampered with.
Pienaar is not a #10- almost cost us a lions series and did cost us the liecester game.
Morne IS the best #10-reluctantly PDV is being persuaded that perhaps he was wrong about this guy.
“Adi jacobs is the best #13″- No he is not.Would he have pulled off that “try of the year”(as awarded to JF recently) that Jacques Fourie scored in the lions series?I doubt very much.
Now picking a bunch of out-of-formers, nobodies,shouldn’t-be’s with no with no provincial combinations and real back-up on the bench in case of a tonga tells me he is over confident and is trying to show off and pull a ,”I told you I could win with anybody” type of mentality.No Gambling just logic and wins please.
This isnt an attack on PdV.I do rate him as a coach.I just think he shouldn’t try be irrational for the sake of being sensational.
9 Nov 2009, 14:33 pm
#48 John1976:
John, this is not about me.
You will not achieve anything by trying to turn the attention to me.
The point Im making here is that we seem to have an inability to instal a Govt that can pursue what is right.
First is was fraud to benefit whites and now the same but for African Blacks. Not only for them but mostly, I think if we check the stats then we’ll see that is correct.
ANC building diligently on the racist and greedy platform laid by Nats.
9 Nov 2009, 14:38 pm
These sort of teams are selected year after year only to appease the politicians.
This is exactly where we are loosing out. Instead of selecting the next best player in every position we make political selections which altermately denies the future stars development on the internal stage and hence when they eventually arrive on the big stage the lack valuable experience.
I am very worried about the time when the likes of Victor Matfield, John Smit, Bakkies Botha and Fourie Du Preez decide to call it a day.
We should learn from teams like England and not make the same mistakes.
Building a teams takes years and we should start now not after the World Cup.
Please someone wake up we are running out of time!
9 Nov 2009, 14:40 pm
#54 pierre: Listen here lad I am the mother of a teenage boy, and I assure you I did not have him in infancy. But with your post you have shown your own infantile nature if not age!
9 Nov 2009, 14:42 pm
#51 WP_: I think we must replace PdV asap. If he stays we must form coaching committee, similar in structure to the President’s Council, to make decision with regard to selection policy, team selection and style of play. I think the coaches of the S14 teams would be the best canidates for such a committee.
9 Nov 2009, 14:45 pm
#61 John1976: just so i don’t start using my boarding school language before properly understanding you, are you saying that Adi, JPP, Habana and Beast are all ANC, non-merit selections?
9 Nov 2009, 14:46 pm
#58 Sheriff: You sound more and more like Pieter Marais, I remember a while back you were accussed of being a high profile politician from the “3 kamer parliament” era when you were still Pietman’s wingman. It seems as though they were right. No?
9 Nov 2009, 14:47 pm
#61 John1976: Lions and Tri-Nations victory? sorry PdV, i’m afraid that’s just not good enough, please show yourself the door…
9 Nov 2009, 14:48 pm
#61 John1976: I think most people know more about rugby than him,. so it wouldnt be a bad idea.
9 Nov 2009, 14:49 pm
#61 John1976: Wouldn’t work. Each Super coach would favour their own players and agendas (funny that). Each would therefore have a different idea about gameplan and it would go around in circels. There is no way a coach can coach a team of players he didn’t select to a style he doesn’t believe in.
9 Nov 2009, 14:50 pm
#64 AndrewBK: #62 toughnrumble: Is this John oke for real?
9 Nov 2009, 14:51 pm
those ppl that live in south africa have every right to question the teams being selected.
also, the definition of a racist is someone who discriminates based on skin colour. it may be that there are whites with unreformed attiutudes which are racist and keep black players out, but selecting or reserving players in the national team based on race is racism – that is the exact definition.
now you might argue it is racism intended to overturn the more subtle opposite racism supposedly ingrained in the S14 coaches that do not pick black player – however it remains racism to select players like Raubenheimer and Ralapelle when they are not the best or second-best in their positions.
9 Nov 2009, 14:52 pm
#64 AndrewBK:
Jake got shown the door 1 month after a world cup win.
In SA, winning doesn’t always save you.
Transformation…..that’s the real winner.
9 Nov 2009, 14:54 pm
#68 cab:
.that is pretty deep.
I prefer to keep calling a spade a shovel.
9 Nov 2009, 14:55 pm
#62 toughnrumble: It is common knowledge, I have heard this at a braai and most of the posters concur, that these guys are selected in order to aid the transformation process as advocated by the ANC government.
9 Nov 2009, 14:58 pm
#67 Mutant: You are right I was only kidding, I had you guys going there for a while.
9 Nov 2009, 15:00 pm
As we all know, the braai is the Holy Grail of credible information.
9 Nov 2009, 15:00 pm
KEO, I am sorry but you are wrong.
And the truth is even more frightening.
The front five who played on Friday night plus the flyhalf, left wing and inside centre combo should have fired.
Gurthro, Chilli, Jannie, Danie, Andries, Ruan, Jongi and Meisiekind – these guys have been in the Springbok set-up for a good long while now.
Yes, they have had to sit on the bench or in the stands while the first-choice players have taken the field.
But surely they should all know each other’s games by now.
Surely the tight five should have worked effectively as a unit?
Surely they practice as a unit when they face up against the first-choice team?
9 Nov 2009, 15:00 pm
#69 Brigadier Van Zyl: if i recall correctly Jake White wasn’t axed, his contract expired.
9 Nov 2009, 15:01 pm
#70 Brigadier Van Zyl:
#71 John1976:
You two.
There is a very lekker site for your type.
rugby talk dot coza
Please pack your loads and go there, they are awaiting your arrival.
9 Nov 2009, 15:01 pm
#63 John1976:
John, right now you’re playing the man and not the ball.
You’re clearly an impulsive character. For your own benefit I would request that we stick to the debate.
You have an advantage as I would also like to take aim at you, but there’s not much to aim it.
This is a friendly request.
9 Nov 2009, 15:03 pm
#69 Brigadier Van Zyl: I also prefer to keep calling a spade a shovel….Jake left on his own accord – he didn’t get shown the door, he just didn’t renew his contract.
9 Nov 2009, 15:03 pm
Bottom line:
Gurthro and Jannie – not good enough scrummagers.
Chilli – should never have been there because of injury.
Pienaar – on current form, not the second best flyhalf option for the Boks.
9 Nov 2009, 15:05 pm
#73 Dawn: I could not use the term “open secret”, it has been worned out by the writers on this blog. So I reckon that refering to the braaitalk would lend some weight to my argument.
9 Nov 2009, 15:06 pm
#60 Sharksgirl – couldn’t agree more!
Att Pierre – your comments are tired and your arguement for Earl Rose is weak. Log out, have a think about the c*ap you are writing then log back in and cancel your account.
9 Nov 2009, 15:12 pm
Maroga in, Godsell out.
That’s one in the bag; now they just need to get Chuene sorted.
Nats taught them well: always ignore principle – focus only and only on race.
9 Nov 2009, 15:14 pm
Cheers Vawn Stemmett and others.
Later.
9 Nov 2009, 15:16 pm
#76 Dawn:
why?
who put you in charge?
9 Nov 2009, 15:18 pm
#76 Dawn: I’m afraid they won’t accept me. Once they know my real name they would try and find an excuse to ban me.
9 Nov 2009, 15:19 pm
#80 John1976: in that case i’m glad i held my fire and did not spew out a phrase or two that would shame my poor old mum. you should know that there are two many single-cell organisms involved in rugby in this country, and frequenting this site, for you to employ either sarcasm or irony in your posting and not cause mass confusion.
9 Nov 2009, 15:19 pm
#84 Brigadier Van Zyl: Dawn is the mother of this site.
9 Nov 2009, 15:21 pm
#73 Dawn:
agg no man don’t be like that …
I say live and let braai…
9 Nov 2009, 15:22 pm
#85 John1976:
if they have “quality control” on that site, I imagine this Dawn girl also has no chance of joining them?
9 Nov 2009, 15:28 pm
#74 puff:
Absolutely correct.
There is a lot of players that has all been around the springbok team for years and that has shown time after time that they are not up to it. If you are goin to experiment do a decent job of it. The team that played the B&I Lions was much better.
9 Nov 2009, 15:30 pm
#33 Sharksgirl: And your point is? Everybody is raving about Deysel but forget that he only had about 30 minutes of playing time, while the starters had by then had to endure some of the most physical play I have seen this year, irrespective of what everybody would liked to believe their credentials were, and quite frankly, he probably made of total of 10 meters in carries if not less, and if he made more than two tackles in that time it was a lot. Like everybody he got stuck in in the end, but could, like everybody else who tried, not breach the defence. And his side of the scrum went back at the same rate as when Raubenheimer went on. So where is the brilliant play and physical impact everybody else claims he produced to the extent that he is a shoe in for the reserves against France.
As an impact player, what impact did he have? I just wish you guys would at least attempt to be objective. You and some other black and white dynamite dudes make it sound as if this guy singlehandedly picked up the entire Leicester scrum and carried it back.
9 Nov 2009, 15:31 pm
Please can someone answer this question for me?
Why is rugby the only professional sport where the referee/official/umpire has to continuely remind the “professional” players of the rules. Telling them when 1)it’s a ruck or not 2)when the line out is over or not 3) take your hands of off the ball 4) take a step back you offsides.
Surely as professional sportsman they should all know the rules and abide by them, if not then get penalised. The ref’s commentary during the game is becoming way too much.
9 Nov 2009, 15:34 pm
#22 pierre: It wasn’t so much being played out of position as having walked into the eye of a tornado, and be honest, nobody could really play their natural game. And as to whether an out and out fetcher would’ve been effective against their breakdown technique is debatable.
9 Nov 2009, 15:38 pm
#92 Bobcat10: The ref is trying to keep the game flowing and his interpretation is crucial.By communicating with the players he is preventing unnecessary infringements which would slow the game down further. I like the commentary. It keeps the players and viewers informed on how the ref is seeing things unfold. This can be quite useful in a game as complex as rugby.
9 Nov 2009, 15:39 pm
#92 Bobcat10: This relates to my earlier posts – all refs interpret the rules differently, which is why they have to commentate during the game – so that players know when that particular ref thinks it’s a ruck and they therefore have to get their hands out etc.
Scrum time is one of the worst because no ref seems to know exactly what’s going on, and penalties seem random at best.
9 Nov 2009, 15:43 pm
#94 & #95 Thanks Gents,
Surely though the laws should be set so that each game does not rely on the ref’s interpretation? Isn’t this the reason that we are seeing so many penalties, because a player does it one weekend and it’s fine then the next he gets a penalised for it?
9 Nov 2009, 15:44 pm
Al the talk of quotas etc is totally of the mark. Sure the vision of Chilliboy being the first black Springbok captain has been a misserable failure, but think of all the loosers in the team.
- Heinke was just back injury played out of position.
- Guthro was shown up the previous week.
- Jannie has never been any good…..
- Chilliboy, when has he ever played a full game?
- Maku, must be a quota….how do you select the 3 player in waiting at a province???
- Bekker, worst scrumming lock in South Africa
- Rossouw…..expected more from him.
- Potgieter….tried but again played out of position.
- Raubenheimer….was he on field??
- Ashley Johnson…best sa player on the field.
- Adams…really a quota.
- Pienaar…feel sorry for him played out of position was terrible.
- Nokwe…is there anybody that rates this guy above Mapoe??
- Olivier…just not international, doesn’t have it. Sorry there is just some things you have or don’t have and he doesn’t.
- De Jongh…there is a lot better guys around that deserved an oppurtunity.
- Odwa…has been tried, and tried…like Olivier not up to it.
- Earl the pearl…didn’t have a bad game…stil don’t think he deserved the oppurtunity thou.
9 Nov 2009, 15:45 pm
#91 catleya: As you see I have not mentioned one thing in praise or otherwise of Deysel. The only point I was trying to make was, that Pierre is calling everyone out for using double standards, while he too is using the same double standards. Potgieter tried hard but did not have a good game, which Pierre excuses as him being played out of position. Good point, but it is my opinion then that the same lee way should be used for Ruan who is consistently being played out of position. Ruan is a talented No. 9, in my opinion he should be FDP’s cover, don’t play him out of position and we will have a very talented player!
9 Nov 2009, 15:47 pm
#91 catleya: Sorry reread your post and would like you please to point me in the direction of just one of my posts where I praised Deysel? Please! I think you and I are talking at cross purposes here.
9 Nov 2009, 15:49 pm
#96 Bobcat10: That is true. A lot of penalties are a result of different interpretations. After the Boks monstered the ABs in Bloem Paddy O’Furniture sent out a message that the Bok mauling was illegal and shouldn;t be tolerated in the next test. Then we had the ref deciding to penalise a srumhalf for not putting the ball in straight. I hadn’t seen a straight scrumfeed in years.If the top refs can’t agree, what chance do the rest of us have.
9 Nov 2009, 15:53 pm
What really blows my mind is the transparency of what’s going on here.
We’re not talking a couple of contentious, debatable selections that the coach may or may not have got wrong. We’re talking third, fourth and fifth choice players making up the bulk of the team, with an obvious political agenda. No rugby fan in SA – and no rugby coach, player or administrator in the world – believes that this was even remotely a second-best-boks team. So I’m not sure who the weak explanations and justifications by Div and **** are aimed at.
It seems to be the Sêffrican way though – do the unthinkable and then offer up some lame, stock standard excuse that you know will not be bought, but who cares? Because hey, you’re untouchable. Think Ministerial Handbook on spending, think ESKOM and SABC bonuses and pay-outs, think crime stats spin-doctoring, think BRT overspending, think blue light brigade intimidation.
We (the people) simply don’t have the clout or the balls to turn our indignation into action. So we mutter angrily about Div fcking the once-proud Springbok up the nought, but we’re as helpless in stopping this barbaric act of bestiality as we are at stopping the ministas from pulling poor Div’s strings.
9 Nov 2009, 15:53 pm
#97 Bokpoot:
guthro,potgieter,roussow and olivier played a CC final 6 days earlier.
Adams stayed on the bench for the final.
Ralapele wasn’t even fit for the final.Maku played 10 minutes or so?
9 Nov 2009, 15:54 pm
going to be one hellava game this friday against france, but it is going to be interesting to see who makes the bench and whether PdV actually selects players who can play 1st team rugby and not those who’ve been watching on the sidelines for most of the yr
9 Nov 2009, 15:58 pm
#71 John1976: serious??, we shouldn’t allow these people to do that to our bokke, I love these braai sessions where the real truth always comes out, dont you?
9 Nov 2009, 16:01 pm
#86 toughnrumble: It is a pity you caught me out before I just could use the phrases “everybody knows” or “everyone will tell you” in my post. Those phrases are the ultimate fall backs that are used on this site when there is no facts to support your argument.
9 Nov 2009, 16:06 pm
#101 katman: “barbaric act of bestiality”
9 Nov 2009, 16:18 pm
#106 AndrewBK: Wonderful phrase in a succinct paragraph of rugby prose
9 Nov 2009, 16:23 pm
#101 katman:
lol, yes, but i dont blame The Greatest, the problem is the ridiculous system that has been foist upon him and sold with ‘merit-only’ BS rhetroic and/or the S14 coaches who are unwilling to pick more of these S14 players.
I dunno if transformation is still deserved or not, but this **** about ‘merit-only’ is total and utter propaganda and the midweek team is not the 2nd best in SA, anyone with any brain can quite obviously see that.
9 Nov 2009, 16:32 pm
#98 Sharksgirl: Look, it may be true that no 10 is not Ruan’s preferred spot, but there are several counter-arguments:
1. How long can you continue to rely on the “out of position” excuse before you expose yourself to the rebuttal that you’ve had plenty of time to acclimatise, and now get your mind right and get on with it? Ruan has had plenty of exposure at flyhalf, and some of his performances there have been very good. Why then did he fold against a club team? In my opinion, his weakness is psychological.
2. Ruan has hardly set the world on fire with his performances at no 9 in the last year or so. It’s very presumptuous of you to assume that he would be the automatic back-up to FdP on merit, when we have guys like Sarel Pretorius and Jano Vermaak available.
3. The guy is in his mid-20′s. He’s not a kid any more. For a supposedly freakishly gifted inside back, he makes a lot of schoolboy errors that have very little if anything to do with what position he’s playing in. He could (and does) erroneously kick the ball dead from scrumhalf, flyhalf or fullback.
In short, I believe that Ruan is indeed an exceptional talent, but he needs a hefty dose of Harden The F**k Up before he can be considered for the Bokke again.
9 Nov 2009, 16:42 pm
#109 pierre: 100%
I was a very big Ruaan fan. He just had all the skills and ability and was a perfect fit for the game that Div wants to play. But he has not grabbed his opportunities at all. in fact i was more disappointed with his negative body language on Friday.
You play where the coach selects you. Ask Ashwell Prince and a young Dan Carter. He palyed 10, 12 and 15 for Cantebury during his early years and was happy to play there. Look at him now, he has established himself as the best in the world. Ruaan has had the same opportunities, just has not delivered.
We cannot allow a player who cannot toughen up a place in the Bok 22. And why has the media let him off the hook so easily?
9 Nov 2009, 16:42 pm
#101 katman:
Again, it has to be noted that Gurthro, Chilli, Jannie, Danie, Andries, Ruan, Jongi, Wynand and Odwa have all been the second-choice Boks in their positions for quite some time now.
Yes, the pressure on them was compounded by the fact that PDV chose to blood some bolters at the same time as giving the second-choice team a run.
But the guys mentioned above really should have fronted up. Danie, Andries and Jongi tried hard. The others were destroyed or rendered utterly ineffective.
The real issue here is that the second-choice players didn’t impose themselves as they should have to allow for a smoother transition for new players like Maku, Potgieter, Raubenheimer, Johnson, Adams, De Jongh etc.
9 Nov 2009, 16:58 pm
#110 moedeloos: and #111 puff: good posts, fellas, good posts
9 Nov 2009, 16:59 pm
#101 katman:
The Ministerial Handbook is my Bible.
9 Nov 2009, 17:02 pm
The players who should stay in the team for Saracens:
Rossouw
Bekker
Potgieter
Johnson
Nokwe
De Jongh
Rose
9 Nov 2009, 17:03 pm
#107 Mutant: lol
9 Nov 2009, 17:04 pm
#113 Dawn: Yes, I can easily see you milking the system for two Range Rovers with ceramic brakes and parking distance control. But luckily I also know that not even sleeping with Julius would get you into guvment.
9 Nov 2009, 17:08 pm
Another Monday, another thread with race underpinnings from Keo… and the obvious sucking up to a certain Mr. Jake “Winning Ways”… Blah, blah, blah ain’t anything new here now is it…
Isn’t Bekker the rightful heir to Big Vic’s throne? Isn’t Danie the normal no. 3 lock playing from the bench for the Boks? Isn’t Dewalt being touted as “the next best thing” by a number of rugby fundi’s? Isn’t Meisiekind the obvious replacement now that incumbent JdV is earning four-leaved clovers? Isn’t Deysel one of the most powerful blindside flankers to have emerged in SA over the last 3 years?
The names which I’m mentioning here is all players whom I rate right up there being a Bulls and Bokke fan. Some were also present when the pack got shoved backwards at alarming rate more often then not by the Tigers.
To mention the names of Chilli and Earl (almost) as if it’s central to the Bok defeat is total BS!! I can agree that these chaps probably do not deserve to be there, but that is also true for the likes of Doctor Jannie, Hargreaves, and Van Zyl. This we don’t mention because of ethnicity? And yes, even they played their part in Friday’s defeat. We could also add that more leadership and direction could have been expected from Danie and Meisiekind, never forthcoming though.
Then there is the question marks in respect of Kirchner (who not too long ago was the form 15 in the S14) and Adi’s “frailty’s” on the inside channel (because we have a clear policy re the selection on overseas based players), both quality merit based selections…
9 Nov 2009, 17:41 pm
Basically the selection policy for the dirt trackers makes no sense at all. Take BEE away from it completely because there were some very strange names in the mix.
Earl Rose was expected, Div loves him. I don’t but he didn’t play absolutely awfully.
Hargreaves??? Huh? Jannie Dup? Huh. Alistair is young, been injured most of the year, although did show good form early on. But he hasn’t played enough to warrant selection. He could just as easily injured himself again. Jannie is neither young nor black nor any good. Everyone knows his contract is written on the back of his brother’s.
Chili was going to be selected, but he didn’t deserve it and is still injured. Gurthro has never been a choice in my book.
Danie also hasn’t had a standout year, he plays for 20 mins when the game is won… Odwa is old and not up to it anymore, there are loads of players from the Cheetahs or the Griquas who run like the wind.
Bottom line is there is nothing to gain from playing these guys as they are either over the hill or have proved time and again they are not up to it. Ruan Pienaar cemented his position as the NOT number 10 in SA and there are 2 9s at the Sharks who are better than him on form. He also lives on past glory…
Basically in light of this, the coaches’ decision to select these guys is even scarier… do any of them know what they are doing???
9 Nov 2009, 18:06 pm
…sickening
…
9 Nov 2009, 18:10 pm
#101 katman: Poor little Bok…raped up the nought…the Seffrican way…
9 Nov 2009, 18:13 pm
#111 puff: …and everytime Guthro,Chilli,Jannie,Danie,Andries,Ruan,Jongi,Wynand and Odwa have come on in the last twenty the Boks are going backward in a Big way…
9 Nov 2009, 18:30 pm
Bulls.. I mean Bokke go down against Leicester:
Firstly, I do not perceive this as sour grapes, and suggest you take it from where it comes, so here goes…
PDV on Friday night replaced many a player from the bulls union with just another from the same union. Rallepele made way for Bandiso Maku, Heinie made way for Francois Hougaard, and so on and so on. All this proved to me is that the bulls are not so hot when the calls go against them for a change.
I know Stuart **** had a shocker, but somehow I have this view after every game Mark Lawrence or Marius Wanker is ref against my team. My theory is simply this:
1. The bulls won the Super 14 after having 11 games in this super 14 being refereed by SA refs. On Friday they were screaming and shouting at a “new unfamiliar” ref. The way the media and generally everybody speaking make them out to be this great era is not valid. Simply because of the refereeing towards them is almost always favorable.
2. I still have bitter feelings towards how Marius Jonker was involved in the downfall of the Sharks and Wp.. (Province were leading the league game vs Vrystaat 26 – 14 and the sharks 18 – 3 in the semis) He clearly had the bulls journey to yet another CC all plotted down or did Andre Watson…?
3. After seeing the way the Kiwis and Australia did against the NH teams, I think the outlook of the media mostly and the public about how good our boks are is ludicrous!! We obviously played weak SH teams in the Tri nations and by the looks of the NH teams also played a weak Lions team…. makes you wonder how good our boks really are….
4. Not picking a single player from Wp’s front row just strengthens my theory about ” Maak die bulle almal bokke” like a certain song goes Wicus Blaauw sorted out all these plonkers in the CC, so did Tiaan Liebenberg. Someway the bulls moaned like bit@hes about scrumming illegalities. They would not accept the fact that Wp shed the tag of the light five. utterly dissapointing.
So if PDV just follow popular belief and think that choosing just bulls will solve all his problems, maybe a better look is needed before we paint everything blue…..
The bulls… I mean the highly rated boks will get a beating by France, I think somewhere the rugby gods will ensure that Champagne rugby will prevail to this kickitandhopewegetapenaltytacticfromthebulls gameplan.
Use it, don’t use it….
Provvas
9 Nov 2009, 18:35 pm
My little trivia for the day to those who dont have blue balls hanging from their bakkie:
Q: How many tries did WO score in a springbok jersey?
Q: How many games have Wp won the last two yaers with Marius Jonker as ref?
9 Nov 2009, 18:38 pm
A: None!! Believe it. This “hot” Centre has never scored for the boks in any games….
A: Well your guess is as good as mine.. If memory serves me Correct it is 2 out of 12 games refereed by him. (Won against Lions without bonus point in S14 and won against Boland I think in CC 2009 2009) Lost to Valke in 2008 with Marius as ref… the valke who cannot make the premier division…. yeah right!!!
9 Nov 2009, 18:47 pm
#124 Provvas: Another statistical gymnast. Look at the scoreboard and trophy cabinet!!
9 Nov 2009, 19:01 pm
#125 Kronung: ja let’s look at the log
1. Shark
2. WP
3. Bulls
4. Cheetahs
5-8. who cares
9 Nov 2009, 19:02 pm
there was one very basic reason for the debacle at leicester.
that team was hopelessly underprepared.
the tight 5 are all boks, yet a bunch of no-name-brand players destroyed them in the scrums.
and the turnovers in the rucks were even worse – though leicester were illegal at almost every one.
9 Nov 2009, 19:03 pm
What an embarrassment! Springbok rugby was let down big time on Friday night. Not only by the bemusing selections but also by the lack of commitment from certain ‘quality’ players that started for the boks.
You would expect an SA 3rd XV to beat an academy team combined with a sprinkle of internationals. Ashley was the stand out player. Pienaar didn’t look like he cared that he had the Springbok emblem on. It was a perfect opportunity for him to control a game and show us his true potential. Rose in the context of things didn’t have such a bad game. Defensively he will always be suspect but he had a few good touches in attack.
As for Steenkamp I think he should go back to scrum school starting off in the U11B’s followed by Jannie.
However I blame the coaches (plural) entirely – as many of the players who were exposed should not have been selected in the first place. I thought £10 for a ticket to see SA vs Saracens was a bargain, I am not so sure anymore.
9 Nov 2009, 19:05 pm
#127 charo: thanks for an objective opinion. something that has been scarce on this blog since friday evening…
9 Nov 2009, 19:11 pm
#127 charo: Amen
9 Nov 2009, 19:12 pm
#126 SpringbokSarah: Why?
9 Nov 2009, 19:13 pm
My point in fact Kronung!!
Your eyes are so filled with the blue by referees and media that you cannot look past the hangover from the last year!!
Your bulls players were beaten by a simple club team called Leicester. I have no passion whatsoever for a team dominated by a bunch of dinosaurs, without any passion.. next time the bulls play, check out how many times they just dive in from the side, all over the show, bridge over rucks etc etc…. and then see them get away with it….
Danie rossouw obviously forgot the ref is not from Sa with that synical barge late in the game…
9 Nov 2009, 19:19 pm
#126 SpringbokSarah:
what does the log have to do with it …. who won? in other words lets select the province team because they finished top of the currie cup log?
9 Nov 2009, 19:20 pm
O ja, Scoreboard said wp 1 try bulls 0
it also said Mark Ilovethebulls Lawrence 7 penalties for 21 points – Wp 4 penalties for 12 points…
9 Nov 2009, 19:21 pm
#132 Provvas: Better yet next time the Bulls play pop in to see the trophy cabinet. Nice sight to behold.
Next time the Bokke play reflect on the year 2009, the team sheets and coaching staff. Nice also.
Any other opinion is merely significant in the eye of the beholder. Entertaining yes, but as always it means more to the penman than to anyone else……..
9 Nov 2009, 19:23 pm
Gunter the log states that over the season the top two teams were Wp and Sharks… not in that particular order but none the less
In earlier years the final would have been decided by the two top teams and not the Scaly back door Cheaters and Bulls.
I do not believe for one second that the cheetahs deserved their place…. neither did the bulls….. its a conspiracy!!!! LOL
9 Nov 2009, 19:27 pm
Kronung I must say that my core will not allow this!!
I can see the Sharks even the lions win the CC but the bulls….
Sorry they are just not likable to me…. something to do with the supporters, mindset and gameplan….. not sure… maybe all of the above…
Here is one for you: Sondag innie kerk het ons nagmaal gehad…. Die dominee vra toe : Wie wil die beker he? Al die Vrystaters steek toe hulle hande op….
9 Nov 2009, 19:40 pm
#136 Provvas:
in earlier years there was no vaccine for smallpox and polio …. should we return? lord knows its been a while since province were top of any log…should we suddenly change the rules now..
9 Nov 2009, 19:46 pm
No Gunther, I am only stating the obvious… that the two top teams did not compete in the final. But saying that these days we do something a certain way.. does that make it the right way?
Surely not? Read my first mail again about my opinion on refereeing these days…. My elder Bulls supporter have the same view on the golden 5 years from province… with the refs of those times always seeming to rule certain calls….
Andre Watsons era will also pass… and the wheel turns they say… Just so Slowly for us Wp supporters FFS!!! Heheheh
9 Nov 2009, 19:56 pm
When you invest in something, you identify potential with the hope of your investment growing to something substantial.
That is true in rugby as it is true in finance.
However, when an investment goes west, it is rather hard to let go and count your losses, or hope that your initial investment, thanks to ‘market’ fluctuations or changes, might just come off, or come good – because if it does, you will be one ahead of everyone else who decided to ‘sell’ off their investments too soon without showing some faith in it.
So it is a catch 22.
Having invested so much in certain guys it is tough to cut the tie, because the cause of the investment not paying off is usually something external that influenced it than the actual commodity you invested in, which is true in rugby too.
Coaches will never win.
Not with 44 million arm-chair experts with opinions.
9 Nov 2009, 19:58 pm
Keo:
I have asked so many times: Why cant we get a history of games played and Referee involved in the Currie Cup and Super 14? Is it such a secret.. the internet is also very vague as far as these stats are concerned.
Or maybe a referee report after each game.
Is there not a rotary system for certain refs for certain teams?
Why does Kaplan Always get Sharks cheetahs games and Jonker and Lawrence always Bulls Wp games?? How is it decided? Behind closed doors with no reasoning?
9 Nov 2009, 20:01 pm
#31 Simon:
No Simon, they are not capped, and they do not get a blazer. They are not Springboks in the sense you try to perpetuate.
9 Nov 2009, 20:02 pm
#142 PissAnt:
If they were, then all the Emerging Boks of the past would also be ‘Boks’
9 Nov 2009, 20:04 pm
Pissant:
Sometimes perceived investments are exactly the opposite: A irrational decision by emotion and no reasoning. In such a case to try and hold onto your “investment” holds no water. But like you say.. its catch 22 cause Passion and emotion for no reason sometimes just pays off….
By your view the following is also true: You dont see just everyday dudes from the street make major investments… It is in 90% of the cases the well Educated, well trained and experienced guys who tastes success.
9 Nov 2009, 20:10 pm
#144 Provvas:
You also have to keep in mind, many of the investments we are talking about now, were inhereted, not started.
9 Nov 2009, 20:18 pm
Keo,
If the boks never played in Toulouse, where did they play France on 23 Nov 1974?
9 Nov 2009, 20:22 pm
#145 PissAnt:
Like my one school teacher always said…. beginning something is so very hard…. but fine tuning something already there is so much easier. Playing down save lane all the time, will only take you SO far.
What is your view on Friday night come the big guns? Will they be the first team since 1997 to beat France in France??
9 Nov 2009, 20:27 pm
The way I see it, the hierarchy is as follows:
a. Capped Springboks (played tests)
b. Springboks (those selected for a springbok tour but who never played in a test)
c. Emerging Springboks/Junior Springboks/Gazelles
Category a is the real deal, while category b can also be called Springboks and is seen as more of an achievement or a “higher status” than category C.
Splitting hair perhaps, but still…
9 Nov 2009, 20:41 pm
#140 PissAnt:
Invest in gedge funds then
Chiliboy and Co hardly constitue hedge funds for the experienced investor
9 Nov 2009, 20:52 pm
#147 Provvas:
We will win
9 Nov 2009, 22:37 pm
#144 Provvas: It is also about taking some risks. Every balanced investment portfolio includes some high risk investments and they usually have the highest yield.
Friday night PdV’s high risk investments weren’t the problem. It was a number of the inherited sentimentally motivated bankers that slipped a couple of points.
I suspect PdV is a very cunning investor. He has found it difficult, for aforementioned sentimental misplaced loyalty reasons, to just liquidate some of his stock without valid justification to his board, so he simply, so he manipulated the market to create the justification.
Might sound ruthless, but now he can cut his losses and restructure his portfolio to create a higher aggregate yield.
Remember, he will ultimately stand or fall by his performance.
9 Nov 2009, 22:43 pm
I am not sure what Chilli boy has done to the hack that is Keo but he seems to blame Chilli for so much.
On Friday night the scrum got worse when Chilli was off, rather than on the field.
It almost sounds like it is getting personal.
Having said all this, the mind boggles that players who have missed large parts or even most of the rugby year have been selected.
9 Nov 2009, 22:47 pm
At the top levels, there is just no place for sentiment. Pdv has shown he is nota selector’s ***. And he has no clue when it comes to forwards. But he has also not been smart enough to hand over the decisions to someone that is capable and has the knowledge. In the past we could rely on him to be smart enough to know when to hand over decisions. This time his ego was bigger than his knowledge. Big dissapointment. So is Gary Gold for not being ableto drum some sense into PdV. Because if he supported that decision on the props, he is not a forwards coaches ***.
FFS the same forwards were drilled in consecutive weekends by the Cheetahs front row. Who play together as a unit and know each otherand did not NEED time to “gel”.
The Cheetahs front row should have been used as is. Chilliboy left at home cause he is injured.
I dont mind him using Pienaar as flyhalf as I believe he can be great, but just needs time there consistently. Plumtree is ******* him up at the Sharks playing him at scrumhalf.
Heinie adams is good but just does not have that little bit extra like Sarel or Hougaard. And Heinie has an irritating tendency to take a step and a big swing that can get knocked dow. A scrummie pass must be one single movement. I cant believe that nobody has told him this!
The bulls loosies should have been used as a unit. With FLouw on the bench. The WP midfield should have been used as a unit. Grant and Juan de Jongh, and the best wingers picked individually. Nokwe, Mapoe and Demas.
That would have been more indictive of the second best side, taking into account that they would have little rtime together. The scattergun approach was just stupid.
10 Nov 2009, 04:08 am
There are too many players been carried by the system. How can a player be selected when he cannot make his own provincial team? We have Old boys club, provincial pressure and quotas.
Quotas: Chili, Maku, Ruabenheimer, Gufro, Adams, Odwa,De Jongh, Rose, Jacobs.
Unlucky: Free sate and province, Any hooker, Mapoe, Juries, Mbysio, Bosch, Joe Pietersen, Ebersholm, David De Villiers, SAREL PRETORIUS,
Old Boys: Dinosaruas, Jannie Kannie, Muller(he nearly got the nod), Smittie(he needs a rest but should stay.
Lucky: Potgieter, Hargreaves, Bosman, Jacobs, Rose.
The Bulls were loosing till their stars came back, yet players were selected from their loosing squad above teams that kicked their ***.
Maybe this will send a message about how quotas affect levels of play. What I am thinking, NOT!
10 Nov 2009, 05:57 am
Funny how Marius Joubert will still be favourably remembered for a once-off hat-trick vs the AB’s many moons ago in a otherwise average career but Adi considered a lucky inclusion even though he was the best Bok just a season ago. Didn’t he score the most tries for 2008? And while he was having a blinder, all those screaming ‘qouta’ were nowhere to be seen, just to come crawling out the woodwork after a modest season (which many a player had at 1 time or another). Eish! Only in SA!
Btw…didn’t I read a thread a coupla wks back by Keo on how much Div can do for transformation with the up and coming EOYT? Am I the only one that remembers this or was it my imagination? Hope I’m not going mental but if it is true…isn’t it just typical?
10 Nov 2009, 07:16 am
#154 BokiNZ: They also lay into him pretty bad in the latest SARugby Mag about quotas. They definitely do have an agenda.
I still dislike PdV though. He loves to blame and play victim. He loves to keep telling everybody how evil the white man is. I say screw that racist pig. I don’t know why Smittie and the rest put up with him.
10 Nov 2009, 09:01 am
#154 BokiNZ: Here here on Adi. When all the other boks were crumbling around him, Adi was the best Bok in the Trinations last year and now he is a quota player. Same with Guthro. When he was good nobody mentioned quotas, he has a few bad games and loses some form and a$$h@les like Kevinrack call him a quota.
Next thing Makhaya Ntini and Bryan Habana will be labeled quota players.
10 Nov 2009, 09:29 am
#156 Oubaas2009: Don’t feed the *******. That’s why they come here. You are never going toi change the minds of racists. Rather just ignore them.
10 Nov 2009, 09:51 am
Katman
Good post above. You are posting more ‘middle’ of the political spectrum posts nowadays since you’ve become a father, in my experience thats what becoming a parent does to you, removes blinkers or simply widens your perspective.
Any direction too far off middle is dangerous IMO.
Re the play-play rugby against Leicester 3rd 15.
Regardless of the selections (of which I agree with keo), the guys just didn’t seem too interested at all. Every scrum seemed like they couldn’t be bothered, body position so wrong that it was no surprise at all they got shunted around at will.
Pathetic effort from those boys.
In fact, I started really enjoying the effort from the Tigers – it was fantastic to watch.
10 Nov 2009, 10:35 am
#154 BokiNZ:
Regarding your question about the EOYT and transformation, Keo very clearly states in the article
” If a national coach wants to take an Emerging team abroad then do so, but don’t call them the Springboks because Leicester, as an example, now have the famous Springbok head as a scalp in the clubhouse. It should never have been so.”
I fully agree with this, rest our Boks after a hell of an ardeous year and at the same time expose others to the rigours of touring, playing in foreign conditions and gaining experience where the rugby public is not going to flog them for a few losses.
10 Nov 2009, 10:40 am
#101 katman:
Well said, good post. Very worrying stuff.
10 Nov 2009, 10:45 am
#158 Stawm: You calling me middle-of-the-road? Not sure I like that, to be honest.
10 Nov 2009, 10:52 am
#161 katman:
I’m sorry to hear that.
What do you find offensive about middle of the road thinking, as apposed to extreme left or right?
10 Nov 2009, 11:05 am
#162 Stawm: I’m actually just yanking your chain a bit. I guess I have become more critical and demanding in certain aspects since becoming a father. But my overall outlook and political position hasn’t really changed much. The things I had a go at in my earlier post don’t reflect a shift to the right, but rather just a bit of helpless agitation at this “untouchable and entitled” mindset that seems to pervade our administrators. Somewhere along the line these people, chosen or voted in to reflect and serve our will, have confused their mandate with a kind of royal birthright. So they plunder and scoff as though this is a perk of the position. It’s all so short-sighted though. Financially, politically and socially we have a very fragile system here in SA that won’t take much to capsise. And these greedy goons are rocking the boat.
10 Nov 2009, 11:18 am
#163 katman:
Critical and demanding?
Understatement of the year.
Pure onbeskof.
10 Nov 2009, 11:19 am
#163 katman:
Welcome to the anarchist side of everything.
10 Nov 2009, 12:26 pm
Let us get real.Transformation is here to stay. It wont
win you games but it goes well for popular politics.
So just prepare yourself for a number a embarrassing rugby
moments.
As as front rows are concerned, only two deserve mention
and they were the WP and Cheetahs, with the latter appearing
the slightly stronger unit.
So if I had to pick a weekday team. I would start with the
Cheetahs front row. The WP lock combination did well and
I would pick them.
This would provide me with a solid tight five.To round
this of a number of loosies are available.One of them
would have to be an aggressive number 8 to attack the flyhalf
channel to take the pack forward.
There are number of good fetchers around, but I would go
for a Brussow type of player.
Behind this pack a would play an established half back pairing
and I think the WP combination would have done well.
The centre combination that played on deserves another shot.
In the back trio I would have Pietersen and Mapoe.These
two players would provide flair and strength.
This to me looks like a team that could give the Boks a run
for their money and would have disposed of Leicester before
half time.
It is much easier if you pick the best.
10 Nov 2009, 16:55 pm
There are three blatant quota selections, Chillyboy, Maku and Adams, all are second or third choice players at their unions. Replacements, Tiaan, Adriaan and Vermaak.
10 Nov 2009, 20:16 pm
#159 BobZimmerman: I wasn’t talking about this partricular thread. There was another one a couple wks back where Keo droned on about how Div could take the transformation process forward. I was searching for it…to no avail. So, now I’m not sure if I imagined it or not. But I have to say that I’m pretty sure I still got all my marbles (some might disagree)so, the long and the short of it…I think its hypocritical, bordering on spineless. All because the team had a bad result because of ‘transformation’ as he speculates. Apparently, the ‘non-transformation’ members in the team had all stellar performances and if it weren’t for them, it could’ve been a massacre.
11 Nov 2009, 08:13 am
#167 Breakdown Boy:
yes Ia gree. Ine essense we have a quota coachh selectingg quota players. A puppet window dressing.
I have a funny feeling this frogs will come out firing and will be unpredictable as french are.
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