Learning from Leicester lesson
9 Nov 2009
Intensity will be the watchword as the Springboks prepare to erase the Welford Road capitulation with a robust showing against France.
Bok skipper John Smit used the word liberally on the 2008 tour of the UK, and the recent debacle against Leicester would serve as a timely reminder that intensity is king on the heavier fields of Europe.
The Tigers went into the fixture as underdogs despite the SA XV’s lack of experience, but always looked the hungrier side at the collisions. After dominating at the tackle point, they had the kicking game needed to pin South Africa deep in their own territory.
It’s no exaggeration when I employ a cliche to contrast the Springboks and their midweek alter-egos. The Cheese got served last Friday, but we should expect a better showing from the Chalk when they play in Toulouse.
The Springboks have the best second-row and halfback pairing on the planet, and, as France coach Marc Lievremont pointed out recently, they are the most physical team in world rugby. They need to take this compliment to heart in preparation for Les Tricolores this Friday. They’ll need ever bit of grit and determination to deny the proud Frenchmen, who will also be anticipating a forward assault.
There has been concern over the fitness of top players like Fourie du Preez and Victor Matfield, who’ve endured a helluva lot of rugby in 2009. Smit, Bakkies Botha and Bismarck du Plessis have also been over-utilised, and Bryan Habana could also have done with a rest ahead of a busy 2010 season.
It’s a pointless debate with these players already picked and primed for a taxing European tour, but every player would do well to know this could be one of the tougher Tests in 2009. Playing at the end of their rugby season, the Boks will need to operate at an optimal level of intensity.
The SA XV lacked that intensity against Leicester and they were duly punished. There were other aspects that cost the tourists, namely the poor scrumming effort, wayward tactical kicking and suspect decision-making, but it was concerning to see a South African team beaten by a club side at the breakdown.
Australia also battled in the initial stages in their match against England on Saturday. The Poms turned the Wallabies over in promising positions because the visitors failed to protect the ball-carrier. When they adjusted in the second period, they prospered, and were thus able to play the game at a more familiar tempo.
Heinrich Brüssow and Schalk Burger are expected to start on the flanks against France, while Ryan Kankowski will fill in for the injured Pierre Spies. Brüssow and Burger worked well in tandem at the back end of the Tri-Nations, but it will be interesting to see how they respond to Friday’s challenge. Plenty will be expected from Kankowski in a ball-carrying capacity.
Nobody outbullies the Bulls when they bring their trademark physicality to the party, but as seen in this year’s Super 14, when the Bulls don’t front at the collisions, they are beatable. The lowly Highlanders outmuscled the Bulls in the league stage, and perhaps it served as a good reminder that physical dominance is something you need to work for in every single encounter.
Smit said it at the beginning of the 2008 tour; intensity is the team watchword when touring the northern hemisphere. The midweek side may be forgiven for not knowing this due to a lack of experience, but their failure should serve as a reminder to Smit’s men that nothing less than the Boks’ uncompromising brand will do in Toulouse.
It’s a tough ask at the end of a long season, and it’s fair to say that should the Boks return from their three-Test tour undefeated, they will have achieved more than just a 3-0 result.
By Jon Cardinelli
248 Comments
9 Nov 2009, 05:44 am
Bring in a scrum coach.
Gert Smal must be licking his lips ahead of the Ireland match, with PDV and Muir seeming not to give a hoot about the dark arts of the front row.
I just hope CJ is fit.
Like Heinke, he’s had one game in months.
And in that game he only came off the bench.
Or did he sit on the bench without being used?
9 Nov 2009, 05:44 am
Key concept MUST be that you can — and you WILL — be embarrassingly snotted by a mere club side if you fancy yourselves to be invincible when you turn up swaggering about being the “world champions”.
Leicester — an indifferent club side — easily whacked you.
With thirteen of their top-flight players unavailable.
Had they been at full strength, it might even have been a 50 point whacking.
You got lucky.
9 Nov 2009, 05:53 am
And, let’s cut the old crappola — the team that got contemptuously smoked by an awfully-understrength Leicester really wasn’t a “SA XV”.
It was the official national team from South Africa called the “Springboks”.
9 Nov 2009, 06:12 am
#3 TheTackler: Last time I checked – we moered the All Blacks both home and away this year – you don’t have a high horse to get up on, so stop trying.
9 Nov 2009, 06:36 am
#4 jaimie: The Boks still have a very… very… extremely long way to go before they can overtake the All Blacks on their joint overall historical win/loss record.
9 Nov 2009, 06:40 am
#2 TheTackler: just to be clear tackler, Leicester aren’t an indifferent club side, they’re the most successful English club of the pro era. However, it is correct to say they were massively understrength but it’s the size of the fight in the dog.
9 Nov 2009, 06:41 am
Thanks for emphasising the point Tackles. The team that played shouldn’t have been called the Springboks. 90% of the country will agree with you.
9 Nov 2009, 06:47 am
I agree with TheTackler! It was not an “SA XI” and I was surprised to see it described as such by so many writers. It was the South African national team, otherwise known as the Springboks, and it was bloody embarrassing that they lost to Leicester (never mind that Leicester was far from full-strength).
Every time the Springboks play it is important that they win – not only for their own pride, but for that of the nation and all those who have gone before them. Getting walloped in the 2007 Trinations because key players were resting was equally disappointing. Preparing for the future, whether it be “blooding” new players or resting those in need of a break, needs to carefully managed so that any SA side that runs out on the paddock can reasonably be expected to win – be that against that All Blacks or Saracens.
Another sad aspect of the Leicester debacle is the impact it may have on the long-term development and futures of some of the players involved. Talk about how to ruin the careers of young players! Already players are being flown in to bolster the ranks. Even though some of these are injury necessitated, it does not send a good message to the players who got hammered on Friday. I am sure some of the players will rise above the Leicester loss; but for some it could be the end of their short-lived international careers. And all because of poor player development.
Here’s to seeing more intensity–at scrum time, the tackle and breakdown–in Toulouse (plus some prudent tactical kicking)!
9 Nov 2009, 06:48 am
#5 TheTackler: A4Y’s.
9 Nov 2009, 06:50 am
#3 TheTackler: According to Saru, the midweek team’s official name is the Springbok XV.
9 Nov 2009, 07:16 am
peter de villiers spoke to some of the players about taking some much needed R&R and most of them refused to take the break offered because “they wanted so much to be part of that family”. Now to keep harping on about how tired some players must be is a senseless to me, we saw it with butch after RWC ’07, he went straight to Bath and didn’t give himself any time to recuperate and his performances for the Boks reflected that.
But ultimately, who is responsible to manage a player’s career, the national coach or the player himself? I know in my field of work i certainly have final say & responsibility over the advancement of my career.
9 Nov 2009, 07:27 am
A completely different team will play on Friday. (Thank God!)
So we have little to worry about, if the boys play reasonable well we’ll win. Simple as that
9 Nov 2009, 07:54 am
Unfortunately I couldn’t watch the game on Friday as it was played at 02:45 over here. But from what I have read, it seems that the team that played, would’ve been thrashed by Boland…
Anyway, the players that were on that team, when looked at individually, are not bad players(note: Earl Rose is excluded from the above comment), but they did not have enough time to gel as a team and consequently got outplayed by an understrength Leicester team.
I however, am not particularly worried about it. Looking at the number of excellent players that came through in the CC this year, Springboks(if chosen correctly) should be more than fine over the next, o I don’t know, 15 years…
9 Nov 2009, 07:55 am
#3 TheTackler:
Yawn… get over yourself…
It was NOT a Springbok side… They did NOT win Springbok caps and didn’t even have the Springbok emblem on the jersey…
You can rant all you like but that doesn’t change the facts… but then again you never let the facts get in the way of your bigotry do you…???
They may have been without their frontline players… but then be thruthful enough to acknowledge that there were NO frontline Bok players in the SA XV either… try being honest for once…
also Leister had six internatinals in their side… I’m sure Mauger alone has more caps the the SA side… what about Castro and the others…?
Of course you won’t be honest and acknowledge those facts…
you sad little man…
And at least PdV does learn and is man enough to do so… unlike Jake White who STILL believes rugby has no place for a fetcher…
9 Nov 2009, 08:01 am
Pity that a real representation of South Africa’s second best XV will most likely never occur.
It seems like SA seriously lags behind in this area when compared to other tier one nations. The home unions have a pretty decent set up with the Churchill cup. What does SA have? The Nations cup?
I particularly like the way the Saxons management is conducted. Players being promoted/relegated between the two squads, but still remaining in the system. This seems like a good way to deal with the fringe players that seem to plague SA touring squads.
This whole debacle seems completely unforgivable for the World Champions…
9 Nov 2009, 08:01 am
Ja as I mentioned before the CC Final Guthro Steenkamp scrums illegal. It cost us a humiliating defeat to recognize this – pathetic selectors.
9 Nov 2009, 08:01 am
Shocking display by the Springboks on Friday …… Just shows that depth could be a real issue for the Boks , if they get a few injuries in key positions they will be in real trouble
Alot of the players in the Friday side were Boks in the current set up so really there is no excuse – Leciester wanted the win and came to play – alot of work needs to be done on developing the Midweek side into players who can slot into the 1st XV
9 Nov 2009, 08:02 am
What will the Boks be like under PdV when Smit, Matfield, Bakkies and FdP are done with international rugby? I can’t help wondering about this one. When these guys are not in the team the Boks look very vulnerable. We may be in for a steep dive in fortunes after the next WC.
9 Nov 2009, 08:12 am
#3 TheTackler: 100% right.
Look okes, I am as patriotic as the next guy, but the showing on Friday night was disgraceful. We need to make an honest assesment of our shortcomings and work on fixing them instead of basking in the glory of an amazing first choice side:
The one thing it has highlighted is that SA have serious depth problems in certain positions:
1. Wynand Olivier is not an international 12′s arse… Without Jean and Frans we are seriously lacking.
2. We dont have depth at 10 either. Ruaan was disgraceful. Dont even mention Peter Grant or anyone else in SA.
3. Tighthead – Jannie Doep had a shocker. Slow, ineffectual, poor scrummaging. WP Nel is untested. Thank God we are getting CJ Back.
4. Other than Morne Steyn – that tour group does not have an 80% kicker !! Our kickers all need tons and tons of work.
5. Our depth at lock is solid. Thought Rossouw and Bekker were good. Ditto loose trio and scrumhalves.
6. Hooker depth need to be properly exploited. Chilli was terrible. We need to work on Adriaan and Tiaan.
So lets take the criticism on the chin. We were pathetic. Now lets fix it.
9 Nov 2009, 08:16 am
#19 Cheetha Champs: 100% agree….good post
9 Nov 2009, 08:19 am
Friday’s Bok performance had a typical BafanaBafana flavour.
9 Nov 2009, 08:20 am
#5 TheTackler: Haa haa , yup hold onto those small victories tackles !! We will take the 3N , World Cup and S14 !! You can have the mythical cup of more wins than losses against the boks !! The people and I mean the real people of NZ (not you) must be very proud !!
9 Nov 2009, 08:24 am
#18 Katsesnor: Look every side goes through a rebuilding phase when they lose the bulk of their team after a WC – just look at England and NZ – but the question is if FDP or Matfield or Bakkies gets injured before the WC , is there enough quality to replace them at the moment – the answer is a definate no.
9 Nov 2009, 08:25 am
#18 Katsesnor: I agree , I expected it after 07 but then Matfield and some of the senior boks played on.
All teams take a dive , after 95 the boks suffered some bad losses as well in 96 but bounced back in 97,98 under Mallet.
The important part is correct handover after 2011 , the new coach should be brought in earlier to familiarise himself with the job. Likewise the new players , getting that balance right is important.
9 Nov 2009, 08:26 am
#19 Cheetha Champs:
#20 grant10:
I agree 100 percent that we played pathetically…
just not that it was a Springbok team…
however, I don’t really think we have depth issues… only selection issues… select the right guys… and we all know who they are… and we could field an excellent second string team…
9 Nov 2009, 08:27 am
#23 stew: The way I see us keeping the momentum is to keep Smit, Matfield and FdP involved with Bok rugby after they retired. They seem to be in some sort of control in the Bok setup.
9 Nov 2009, 08:27 am
#19 Cheetha Champs: Good points, agree with everything except although I think WO deserves a few more chances before he is judged so harshly.
Nice article too, this a pearl: “The SA XV lacked that intensity against Leicester and they were duly punished. There were other aspects that cost the tourists, namely the poor scrumming effort, wayward tactical kicking and suspect decision-making, but it was concerning to see a South African team beaten by a club side at the breakdown.”
9 Nov 2009, 08:29 am
#26 Katsesnor: Does seem that way
9 Nov 2009, 08:32 am
#15 MittenRugger:
I agree, and it’s something that I’ve been punting for a while. I have a feeling, though, that the problem might be one of cost, as sending 2nd XV squad on tour is an expensive business, which is something the NH nations don’t have to worry about, due to the proximity of each country.
9 Nov 2009, 08:34 am
#28 stew: I’m sure PdV will get another term as coach. He cannot be replaced on his current record. If that’s the case I’m sure the three players mentioned will be in the management mix after 2011.
9 Nov 2009, 08:34 am
#3 TheTackler: Tackle bag 74-14
9 Nov 2009, 08:35 am
Guys, I know I have posted this before, but I wouldn’t stress about our depth.
Side and ages for 2015 WC in Japan:
1. Beast 30
2. Bissie 31
3. WP Nel 29
4. Smith 33
5. Bekker 31
6. Brussow 29
7. Vermuelen 29
8. Spies/Kanko 30
9. Pienaar 31
10. Morne 31
11. Mapoe 27
12. Wynand 31
13. Fourie 32
14. JPP 29
15. Francois 28
I know this squad will be quite old come 2015, but considering some new talent will come through and guys like Deysel and Alberts aren’t considered, I think this side would be awesome in 2015.
9 Nov 2009, 08:35 am
In Afrikaans that means ” Shut up jy raas”
9 Nov 2009, 08:37 am
Only concern is an enforcer. Juan Smith to captain the side from 4?
9 Nov 2009, 08:38 am
#29 David: Wales, Ireland and Scotland have cut a lot of ‘A’ games in recent years due to finances. However, Scotland and Ireland do compete in the Churchill Cup during the summer.
9 Nov 2009, 08:39 am
Not a single time the Tigers stayed on their feet at ruck time, just change thr rule that all can dive on the ball, then we don’t need a fetcher. Belaglik.
Iewers moet Pieter eksperimenteer , waar beter ?
Onthou almal verwys na ‘n slagting 22-17 ??? 74-14 is eerder ‘n slagting. Dis nie so erg nie, skrumwerk gaan oor saamwerk .
9 Nov 2009, 08:43 am
#32 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): You left out Stefan Ter Blanche – 42
9 Nov 2009, 08:43 am
I don’t think our depth is such a huge issue – its the fact that PdV is picking 5th and 6th choice players instead of the bloody second choice ones!
9 Nov 2009, 08:43 am
#35 Big Hit: What they always send their “B-teams” over for the SH tours!
9 Nov 2009, 08:47 am
#38 jaimie: Correct
#38 jaimie: True, I have him on the bench though!
9 Nov 2009, 08:48 am
CapeBull – I fully agree that Pieter must experiment. But not with a team called the “Springbok XV”. Rather send the team, call them the Impalas and tell the public that it is purely for development reasons. Don’t lie to us and tell us that they were picked on merit. Some guys in the team that played on Friday are very very talented, but imo can’t be credited yet with being called a Springbok, midweek team or not
9 Nov 2009, 08:54 am
Dont worry….the cavalry are arriving!!
CJ….Wiaan Du Preez…A Strauss…Lekker….
And now precedent set…why not go the full Monty and call up F Steyn…JDV…and BJ Botha….
Those Frogs wiil kak themselves!!
9 Nov 2009, 08:54 am
The pack was shocking as a unit and the front row was embarrassing.
But it has to be said, Stuart Dickinson deserves to be given his hat and told to go on his way.
The guy is so unbelievably biased, it is so obvious to all who watch him ref.
9 Nov 2009, 08:55 am
#42 grant10:
I am worried about CJ.
He has had as little game time as Heinke.
9 Nov 2009, 09:00 am
#42 grant10: JVN for No.8 would be the first player to call if you’re picking NH Boks. SA would have a complete pack then, world class in almost every position
1. Beast
2. BDP (CJ on 60 mins, Smit to 2)
3. Smit
4. Botha
5. Matfield
6. Burger
7. Brussow
8. Van Niekerk
9 Nov 2009, 09:02 am
#2 TheTackler: Yawn !!
It seems tackles has gotten over the snotting the AB’s got in the Tri Nations!!
9 Nov 2009, 09:04 am
#5 TheTackler: another yawn!!
Maybe the AB’s had some time to build up a nice cushion, whilst the Boks had to contend with quota’s etc, but expct more of the same in 2010, and 2011 taccie, don’t think the AB’s will be that far ahead anymore lol
9 Nov 2009, 09:07 am
#43 puff: Agree 100%. He must not ref an SA game again.
Test side:
Beast
Bissie
Smit
Bakkies
Victor
Ratel
Schalk
Kanko
FdP
Morne
Habanna
Adi
Fourie
JPP
Kirchner
Bench:
CJ
Strauss
Bekker
Danie
Deysel
Ruan
Wynand
9 Nov 2009, 09:07 am
Whatever!!
As long as we win I don’t care what we learn.
9 Nov 2009, 09:11 am
#44 puff: Yes…agree…but he has been in Leinster squad for last 3 weeks and i am not sure ut think he played 1 match? Big Hit will know the detail. Surprised BJ was not called up as well….
9 Nov 2009, 09:12 am
#45 Big Hit: In almost every position….not at 3 in that pack…thats for damn sure!
9 Nov 2009, 09:17 am
#31 capebull: 74-14? Who got 74 and against whom? And when?
Does 49-0 ring a bell? Or 28-0? Or 19-0?
Guess who got 0 ?
9 Nov 2009, 09:18 am
Heyneke Meyer about to be appointed as D O R at Bulls…
CJ…WDP AND A STRAUSS BACK IN BOK SQUAD….
Only bummer yesterday was loss by Man U….
9 Nov 2009, 09:18 am
#52 TheTackler: Sorry I have a short memory. 3 – 0 is all I remember. Who won 3 and who won 0??
9 Nov 2009, 09:20 am
#51 grant10: De Villiers the France prop is new Bok scrum doctor?
9 Nov 2009, 09:20 am
#52 TheTackler: LOL
9 Nov 2009, 09:22 am
boks win 2 out 4 world cups we have played in (50%)
NZ 1 out of 6 (17%)
9 Nov 2009, 09:23 am
#54 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): LOL#55 Big Hit: Yes…joins Boks today …not sure if a permanent appointment though….good move by PDV….the ex frenchman stays in Stellenbosch now…
9 Nov 2009, 09:23 am
Guys like Grant10 who want John Smit out, remind me of when Nick Mallet dropped Teichman for Skinstad before 1999 RWC. Mallet still reckons its one of the biggest regrets of his Bok coaching career.
Grow up. He’s a legend.
9 Nov 2009, 09:24 am
Rule # 14
9 Nov 2009, 09:25 am
#58 grant10: interesting video, seems Gold realises he’s not a specialist scrum coach coaching.blog.rugbyiq.com/?p=93
9 Nov 2009, 09:28 am
#59 Oubaas2009: Nice Oubaas and as I remember it, it was the Cape media and administrators that pushed the Bob thing. Once again the Capies are pulling a brutus, but luckily the powers have shifted and no-one gives a rats ar$e what the WPeers think. Boks have enjoyed one of their best seasons ever, yet people are calling for changes and criticising our captain courageous. Its disgusting.
9 Nov 2009, 09:33 am
#52 TheTackler: A4Y’s!!!
9 Nov 2009, 09:35 am
#62 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
sweeping statements there Ratel… don’t get caught up in Provincial rivalries now… It’s not the Capies, the media or anyone but Grant and few others…
Genralising hardly adds to the debate… just inflames it…
but I know you know this…
9 Nov 2009, 09:35 am
#55 Big Hit: go check the video link on rugby 365 with G Gold.
9 Nov 2009, 09:36 am
i for one hope Kankoffie has a blinder in the tight phases cause it’s gonna be tough vs the Frogs this friday!
no-one will be able to “hang loose”
and wait for ball……. we will have to work our gatte off on the ground!
9 Nov 2009, 09:36 am
BTW, can anyone explain when “helluva” (used by JC in the article) became an accepted word in the written english language? The lecturer who taught him will be tearing his hair out if sees it.
9 Nov 2009, 09:36 am
Minder en Silver is nie afrigters nie – hul is helpers … imo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
9 Nov 2009, 09:37 am
#59 Oubaas2009: who wants him out?
Redeployed…used differently plonker!
Dont start **** so early on a monday man!!
Get your facts right!
9 Nov 2009, 09:37 am
#65 grant10: yeah it’s the same one I linked, pretty interesting. It seems to me that Gold is now delegating scrum coaching to a specialist. I don’t see the scrum having much trouble, but you never know I suppose.
9 Nov 2009, 09:38 am
#61 Big Hit: yeah….good that they call up specialists…and i am glad PDV is prepared to acknowledge mistakes and learn from them
9 Nov 2009, 09:38 am
Cheers – mense. Oppad coffee shop toe.
gaan GROOT!
en moetie vir Grant10 so uithaal nie…. die man het n punt beet!!!!!!!!
9 Nov 2009, 09:40 am
#71 grant10: I think that’s a strength of PDV’s, he is prepared to take responsibility
9 Nov 2009, 09:40 am
#70 Big Hit: i hope you right….i dont know much about French pack….but historically they always prided themselves on a tough scrum
9 Nov 2009, 09:42 am
#72 Staal: Ratel sal alles wat n haai is inspan….so ek luister nie na daai klein haaitjie se gechommel nie….
I call it as i see it and the changes come…so maybe he is the sentimental plonker not me!!
9 Nov 2009, 09:44 am
#52 TheTackler: Tackler , your problem is that your team does not support your mouth, you clearly forgotten 3N, S14 ect results this year , so focus your commnets on your team not performing , leave ours alone.
9 Nov 2009, 09:48 am
#19 Cheetha Champs: Your assessment is spot on.#42 grant10: Guys, just hold your horses there for a moment. CJ is probably a consession being made by PdV based on information at his disposal as regards CJ’s most likely whereabouts come 2011. He probably has sufficient proof that one of the SA Unions have tied CJ up or have an option to tie him up prior to WC 2011 and that he will be playing back in SA by then.
You guys are looking at opening a new can of worms. Remember it is because most of our quality props and other players became impatient with non-selection and /or elected to chase Euros that our depth at TH is so decimated.
And I agree with PDV leaving the highly talented and promising youngsters behind this time, because in Prop-terms they are babies, even though they scrummed allcomers. With a bit of luck they might be ready in 2 to 3 years time, maybe even for the WC. There is no point in pulling a Chilli on them now. He knew all along where he stood with guys like CJ, but he had to be more than fair with the squad incumbents by giving them a final chance to stake their claims. He has done that now and can move on.
So I say let’s trust his judgment and vision. He has not let us down yet.
9 Nov 2009, 09:48 am
#64 ufo: Trying to inflame!
Grant10 seems hell bent on altering a winning combination, which I always find pretty stupid.
9 Nov 2009, 09:49 am
Played 78
Won 42 Lost 33 Drawn 3
Sorry, pilgrims. Suck it up.
You’re going to be on the short end of the test equation for many, many more years to come.
Won 42, Lost 33.
Whoo…. that is HUGE!
9 Nov 2009, 09:51 am
#79 TheTackler: Not really 3 more years like 2009 and we’ll be equal!!
9 Nov 2009, 09:52 am
#78 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): The Boks may be winning…but our scrumming as a component of the team has been poor.
Ratel…i dont want to fight with you…go see rugby 365….go educate yourself…this is tiresome…
Please boet…
9 Nov 2009, 09:53 am
#79 TheTackler: whoo…lol, you’re a funny guy tackler I give you that.
9 Nov 2009, 09:54 am
#77 catleya: Yes….CJ will be back…as will BJ…i know its a radical step….i am not convinced by non selection of these overseas players we are actually stopping the bleeding of players anyway…perhaps a rethink is required.
It is difficult…pro s and cons…as in most decisions.
9 Nov 2009, 09:56 am
#79 TheTackler: Tackle bag , you still don’t see the point , maybe last year or the year before, you had bragging rights , not this year , you sound like a certain political party in RSA always going back to the past, to justify the lack of performance now, so shut up ..or change your name to the name of this Political Party
9 Nov 2009, 09:57 am
#79 TheTackler:
You’re as bad as my wife, who’s prepared to drag up something I did wrong 5 years ago in order to win a current argument about something totally different.
9 Nov 2009, 09:57 am
#81 grant10: Decimation of Lions scrum, NZ never dominating us? For a long time our scrumming hasn’t been a strength, even with BJ and CJ, I don’t see any difference now, but I don’t want to get into this, so what article on R365 must I read?
9 Nov 2009, 09:58 am
The Boks can’t even beat an ordinary English club side with eleven of their regular players unavailable due to injury…
Leicester C team?
9 Nov 2009, 09:58 am
Best news , Bulls have signed the Italian prop from tigers
9 Nov 2009, 09:59 am
#87 TheTackler: Bok G team
9 Nov 2009, 10:00 am
#83 grant10:
Why do you think Monty and Matfield came back? Playing in the S14 has to be the main prerequisite for Bok selection, otherwise we’d never field any S14 sides capable of performing.
9 Nov 2009, 10:01 am
#87 TheTackler: Maybe, but they managed to beat a full strength All Black side…… 3 times. What does that tell you? Lucky the All Blacks aren’t facing the Tigers this tour!
9 Nov 2009, 10:01 am
#77 catleya: i am looking forward to the make up of the bok bench….i heard a 5…2 split was on the cards…not so sure now that CJ in the mix…
9 Nov 2009, 10:02 am
Predicted French team according to l’equipe, midol
15- Traille – big boot at full back, almost as big as Steyn’s but he’s not a natural 15, see RWC semi and Lewsey try
14- Clerc – very fast wing, but not quite the same player since before injury
13- Marty – decent 13, nothing special imo
12- Mermoz – magic man for Perp, but hasn’t done it at test level yet, NZ contained him
11- Médard – wolverine, great counter-attacker and some brilliant skills
10- Trinh-Duc – strong running 10
9- Dupuy – nippy breaking 9, goal-kicker
8- Picamoles/Bonnaire
7- Harinordoquy – class No.8, excellent lineout exponent
6- Dusautoir (cap)- tackler supreme, lacks a bit of power but incredible work-rate and determination
5- Nallet – physical lock, not in great form
4- Millo-Chluski – form lock
3- Mas
2- Servat – bullocking hooker, good scrummaging presence
1- Barcella – decent scrummaging young prop
9 Nov 2009, 10:03 am
#88 capebull:
Imagine that!
9 Nov 2009, 10:04 am
#86 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): a video link….B H gave the link….
You mistake my wanting a strong bok scrum as a vendetta against Smit….
I also wanted Brussow in place of schalk as a specialist fetcher….
We all have opinions and philosophies…i dont believe a guy should play out of position in an international front row just because of his captaincy….its only an opinion!
9 Nov 2009, 10:05 am
#88 capebull: Serious?????
9 Nov 2009, 10:05 am
Personally I think the following did really well – Rose, Johnson, Olivier,
The following didn’t do enough to put their hands up – De Jongh, Bekker, Nokwe, Potgieter, Ndungane, Maku,Adams
AND the following were extremely disappointing, out of their depth or should just be @ home getting rest – Pienaar, Guthro, Chilli, Russouw, Raubenheimer, Janni,
HONESTLY, it still hurts when i think abt the performance
9 Nov 2009, 10:05 am
#3 TheTackler: I’m pretty sure you were one of those faux-Kiwis who couldn’t stop telling us that the Crusaders outfit of two years ago that got hammered regularly was not a true Crusaders team as a bunch of them were being rested. But they’re still the Crusaders, we would point out. No, they’re a make-shift, second string team, you and your ilk would retort. The competition was devalued, you said. This one doesn’t count, we were told. By you – I remember it well. Well, you’re the goose and we’re the gander, buddy.
9 Nov 2009, 10:06 am
#90 David: i understand the complexity of the problem.
9 Nov 2009, 10:07 am
#93 Big Hit: No Marconnet???
9 Nov 2009, 10:07 am
#93 Big Hit:
I also think Big Joe still deserves to be in the Bok mix.
Imagine if this 22 played against the Tigers on Friday:
Van Der Linde
Coetzee
Botha
Kruger
Britz
Watson
Van Heerden
Van Niekerk
De Kock
James
De Villiers
Barrit
Joubert
Russell
Steyn
Humaan
Britz
Skeate
Sowerby
Claassens
Hougaard
Burger
9 Nov 2009, 10:08 am
#95 grant10: Its only an opinion, but at what stage do you change your opinion? I mean you seem to be constantly hoping our front-row will be decimated, well to date they have stood up well, certainly no worse than any other modern era bok scrum. So at what stage do you get behind the team and admit Smit can play at 3? What does the guy have to do?
9 Nov 2009, 10:09 am
#97 Papoose: Bekker fronted up and was a physical as I’ve ever seen him. He was more the enforcer than Danie even. Adams was solid too, and our winds did pretty much everything you could have asked considering they didn’t get any ball to play with.
9 Nov 2009, 10:10 am
#100 grant10: it seems not, probably off skiing
#101 puff: should’ve just let Saracens play Leicester, they’re mostly South African and probably would’ve won easily against their reserves
9 Nov 2009, 10:11 am
Even with CJ joining and the possibility of BJ making a bid for a place in the 2011 squad, I still think the search for stronger and better TH’s and LH’s must continue.
While the likes of CJ and BJ will definitely improve the current situation , I do not for one moment believe that they will allow us to dominate opposition.
They have played together before and have been drilled and have seldom been dominant.
So while it will help and will avoid the embarrassment of last Friday night, their inclusion is by no means the end of our scrumming woes.
9 Nov 2009, 10:12 am
#103 Mutant: Exactly, to me Bekker made a huge leap forward. he really got stuck in, rest of the pack, not great, bar maybe Johnson, but he made some crucial errors. Physically Deysel had some impact, but not his best game either.
9 Nov 2009, 10:13 am
#105 justrugby: as I see it, SA don’t have any props capable of dominating all-comers, but the reality is they don’t need them, they just need parity to be solid on their own ball
9 Nov 2009, 10:17 am
#102 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Smit can play 3? Let’s face it, without Bakkies to add a bit of grunt behind Smit in the scrums he comes off looking pretty ordinary. You only need to take a look at his performances once back in the Sharks jersey to justify ppl’s opnion’s that perhaps Smit isn’t a great tighthead. So yes, fair enough, Bakkies will be there Friday night to back Smit up, but what happens when he is replaced or injured?
France and Argentinia are without a doubt the greatest scrummaging teams. SA better be focussing a helluva lot more on the scrums that the other 80% they usually get right.
9 Nov 2009, 10:17 am
i’m new on the site. how do you direct a comment at someone?
9 Nov 2009, 10:17 am
#102 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
Ratel you are being a total numbnut, how can you say that Grant10 is not 200% behing the BOks , he is more passionate about the Boks than anyone I know, but and I concur, he has the insight to highlight and expose weeakness and campaign for the side to be better than whst it is currently.
Your are living in a cocooned world if you believe that front row of ours is the best in the country and cannot be improved on, maybe you are the one that does not havethe Boks best interest at heart ??
Oh yes it is a sharks front row…..now I understand !!!
9 Nov 2009, 10:20 am
Can somebody please drop Steenkamp! Enough of guys already; he was ordinary in every single CC game this year, yet he somehow makes the team? Why?! For once just pick on bloody merit!
If the Cheetahs frontrow had been playing on Friday night we might have seen a different Bok team
9 Nov 2009, 10:20 am
#102 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): I dont believe Boks have done well at scrum time except 1 st teat vs B lions.
Certainly embarressed by Aussies….
Anyway…PDV and Gary Gold seem to share my concern….and thats what counts…
Bringing in The french ex 3 a step in the right direction.
And CJ a marker for whats to come,
Go watch the Gold interview, see who he talks about as needing to improve.
Never mentions Beast or Bissy once…only J Smit.
When do you change opinion that Smit should go back to 2….once we lost a few tests??
Be proactive man….do whats neccessary before we all pay the price….
But dont try and convince me that Smit is an international class 3…too many times he has been found wanting…ask the cheetahs!!
9 Nov 2009, 10:20 am
#109 bored@work: click th first arrow next to their name
9 Nov 2009, 10:22 am
#113 mbaxman93: thanks!
9 Nov 2009, 10:23 am
#107 Big Hit:
You’re quite right, which is why the call for bringing in younger guys, based solely on their scrumming prowess is rather short sighted. It’s their all round play that’s vitally important at test level, not just scrumming.
9 Nov 2009, 10:25 am
#107 Big Hit:
Parity is good but domination of the scrums is the ultimate, when dominating the entire side is boosted and and the backs gain huge confidence from it, if we can dominate on the opposition put in the game becomes so much easier.
I fully understand that with the modern era and the quality of the athletes around that dominating scrums is unlikely.
However I believe that we have neglected aspiring to dominate for years now, if we can search for the players with the ability to dominate and if our coaches believe that having a dominate scrum is a massive advantage and pull out all the stops to achieve this then I truly believe that the Boks will be almost unbeatable.
9 Nov 2009, 10:28 am
#109 bored@work: Click on the first arrow next to the persons’ name.
9 Nov 2009, 10:28 am
#103 Mutant: whether the wings got opportunity or not, did they do anything to put they’re hands up? No
still nt convinced bekker did enough to be put in category “played well” as the more senior guy there i hoped to have gotten more out of him
maybe thats y am soo bitterly disappointed in Russouw
he’s also senior and should’ve done more to hold it together IMHO
9 Nov 2009, 10:30 am
#89 capebull: Boks could pick anyone. If they picked their G team it’s because they COULD and — typically — they were cocky enough and dumb-dutchy stupid enough to dream that their G team could defeat the Leicester C team.
Well, they couldn’t.
Leicester C served them their beans. Well and truly.
Smoked South Africa’s dirt-trackers with contemptuous ease, really.
Now the yarpies are suddenly plunged into a seriously deep crisis…
9 Nov 2009, 10:30 am
#107 Big Hit: My biggest problem with scrums nowadays is their interpretation by referees. There is so much inconsistency and guesswork that no one knows what the hell is going on, especially the man with the whistle.
I don’t have a solution to it, but it makes no sense for a scrum to annihilate another one week, and then suddenly be on the back foot the next. Yes there are good and bad days, but there has not been one consistently dominant international scrum over the past year for example. One week its the Boks giving the Lions, then it’s the Aussies giving the Boks, then the Boks on top of the Blacks and it goes in circles. Needs serious addressing from higher powers
9 Nov 2009, 10:33 am
#110 justrugby: Is that your real name….looks like you’re JustInsertedIntoGrant10
9 Nov 2009, 10:33 am
#115 David: Yeah David, your thoery got blown out of the water on Friday night. Did any of the front row’s performance in the loose make up for their poor scrummaging? When selecting a tight five you pick good scrummagers, good lineout jumpers, guys with grunt, and then you start with all the other pretty nice-to-have stuff
9 Nov 2009, 10:33 am
#116 justrugby: Isn’t Heinkie Van der Mervwe supposed to be the best scrummager in SA? he was dominated by his opposite number but he got the better of young Dan Cole when he came on in a late scrum against Tigers.
#120 Mutant: I think the emphasis on the ‘hit’ has damaged scrummaging. They cause collapses and refs have to penalise. I’m in favour of sequential engagement, props first, then second row and back row. No more collapses and odd interpretations, just solid platforms.
9 Nov 2009, 10:34 am
#107 Big Hit: forget parity! lets get back to DOMINATING dammit
9 Nov 2009, 10:35 am
#122 Richie_7: the problem with those front row players is that as well as being fairly useless at scrummaging, they weren’t much cop around the field either. I don’t think the same can be said for Beast, BDP and Smit who are probably the best front row in the world in the tight/loose
9 Nov 2009, 10:36 am
#110 justrugby: #112 grant10: Pick a better international frontrow from SA based players than our current one. Please enlighten me.
9 Nov 2009, 10:37 am
Tackler as always you have lot to say about the Springboks but when your glorious boys in black gets a hiding you are as quiet as a mouse. I only have one description for you – chuffnut!
9 Nov 2009, 10:39 am
#123 Big Hit:
1st game in almost a year, should never have been there….but probably our strongest LH when match fit !!
9 Nov 2009, 10:40 am
#101 puff: no young/previously disadvantaged/development players. good side though!
my team would have been:
1. Wian
2. Adriaan (c)
3. Nel
4. Danie
5. Bekker
6. Louw
7. Duanne
8. Johnson
9. Ruan
10. Grant
11. Basson (not sure if he is injured, else Odwa)
12. Adi (WO to start test)
13. Juan
14. Mapoe
15. Pietersen (goal kicker)
16. Guthro
17. Chilli (great future, needs to be handled better)
18. Jannie dup
19. Gerhard Mostert
20. Dewald
21. Hougaard (Can cover pretty much any position in the backline)
22. Odwa/Juries
9 Nov 2009, 10:41 am
#116 justrugby: #120 Mutant: #112 grant10: Please read Mutants post at 120. If there is no consistency in scrum interpretation. Boks beat Lions, Aussies beat boks, All Blacks beat Aussies, SA beat All Blacks highlights this. Then what is the point of picking players only on their scrumming prowess? I mean the best scrum in the world may be dominated by the refs whistle. Again name the 3 strongest players in world rugby 1 to 3, scrumming wise.
9 Nov 2009, 10:43 am
#122 Richie_7: amen!
9 Nov 2009, 10:45 am
#125 Big Hit: and one of the most kak scrummaging units….cant have bread buttered both sides….as Richie 7 says…1 st and foremost …do the primary stuff….
9 Nov 2009, 10:46 am
#130 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): OKAY RATEL…..FFS…STAY WITH THE POWDER PUFF FRONT ROW THEN…
BLOODY MORON!
9 Nov 2009, 10:47 am
#126 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Easy as pie…
1 W du Preez
2 J Smit
3 WP nel
9 Nov 2009, 10:48 am
#122 Richie_7: #131 grant10: Has anyone stopped to question Maku’s prowess in the scrum? The guy hardly plays CC rugby, what does he scrum like and what was his impact on his 1 and 3. Surely the frontrow is a unit and when you have a third grade hooker in your line-up your scrum will suffer?
9 Nov 2009, 10:49 am
#134 grant10: although i would rather hace cj or bj at 3…
9 Nov 2009, 10:51 am
#134 grant10: Wow, 2 uncapped props and one of the least mobile hookers in the country, not to mention that Smit is probably the tallest guy in that front-row, not clever. If that is SAs BEST frontrow, I’m glad PdV has picked our worst! Imagine starting a test match against France/Ireland/NZ with this line-up. Everybody look at the wisdom of grant10. This is his front-row wish for Saturday:
1 W du Preez
2 J Smit
3 WP nel
9 Nov 2009, 10:51 am
#128 justrugby: agree 100%…although Beast and Wiaan probably give a bit more about the park….
Point is you cant have an average scrummer at 3 if you have an average scrummer at1 as well….what you then get is what we saw Friday,
Seems some fools never learn!
9 Nov 2009, 10:51 am
#133 grant10: Anger management dude, it’s just a web discussion…chill out
9 Nov 2009, 10:52 am
#135 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Dont know a lot about Maku….did well against B lions though for E Boks
9 Nov 2009, 10:54 am
#137 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Imbecile….i would have CJ at 3….
But you a doos of note ….tiresome little shark blinkered guppy.
9 Nov 2009, 10:55 am
#139 Mutant: Ja…best i go do some work….Ratel gonna give me a heart attack…cheers
9 Nov 2009, 10:56 am
#137 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): you a jerk of note.
9 Nov 2009, 10:57 am
#141 grant10: CJ can not play in the 3N, so get over it. Who is the real Imbecile, 1 W du Preez,
2 J Smit, 3 WP nel. How many S14 games have these props played? They are prospects, but to throw them straight into the international arena is madness. If you can’t see this then you are an idiot.
9 Nov 2009, 10:57 am
#130 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
Pointless exercise because evryone has their favourites, deal with the facts and the obvoius, our scrum has battled….fact !!
JS not a TH fact, Beast converted loose forward fact !!
If JS was not captain fantastic would you be calling his praises ….I doubt it !!!
JS was a very good hooker and is a great captain, Bissie is a good hooker but is he that much better a hooker than JS that the captain had to be asked to play TH ??
The correct decision was to leave JS at hooker and play bissie off the bench….actually simple.
If JS leadership was not an issue then he should of been demoted to the bench or dropped.
We need to get over ourselves about haveing JS on the field at all times as a leader, (as good a one as he is).
I again pose the question what if in training today he has a carreer ending injury, does this mean Bok rugby collapses, no !!! ……what it means that the next great leader gets the opportunity to take the side forward !!
Sentimetal gestures have a limited space in sport !!
For the record I think HVDM, Bissie, WP Nel is a better front row than our current one !!
9 Nov 2009, 10:57 am
#122 Richie_7:
Fridays performance didn’t contradict my statement, or theory as you put it. I was merely pointing out that there’s more to selecting a prop than their ability to outscrum their opponent. As BH pointed out, parity is essential, but trying to achieve dominance, which is rare nowadays, at the expense of other aspects of a props contribution is also short sighted.
9 Nov 2009, 10:59 am
Ratel…go read news 24…heading PDV heeds call…seems you out of step again…making your name gat here….go see what the experts are saying you one eyed sharkie!
9 Nov 2009, 11:00 am
#143 grant10: Seems every time your points are exposed you revert to insults and then if that doesn’t work you run off the website. I don’t think their is an international coach in the world that would pick 1 W du Preez, 2 J Smit, 3 WP nel over Beast, Bissie and Smit. The reasons are obvious.
9 Nov 2009, 11:03 am
I’ve just read through all the comments on this article, and whilst there are several good points made by most of the commenters, there is also the usual drivel from some – more particularly one Tackler – the man (or object??) who still has such an enormous identity crisis, and has still not realised that no matter how much he tries to be accepted by the New Zealanders as a Kiwi, he just NEVER will be.
In their eyes he will ALWAYS remain a South African reject! A misfit who doesn’t seem to belong anywhere.
And all this going on about the Boks midweek team and how they were outplayed and outscrummed just doesn’t make any sense, because the team that will be playing against France this week is DEFINITELY NOT remotely the team that played against Leicester.
True, the performance was shocking and embarrassing, but that is the cause for another major concern, namely DEPTH!!!
And yes, I agree, that needs serious attention.
But c’mon guys, let’s get real. The depth issue currently has ABSOLUTELY NO bearing on the Bok team for this coming Friday in the short term.
It is all about what John Smit & his men do in the 3 tests on this tour – and based on their tests thus far in 2009, we currently (and hopefully still in the next few weeks) do not have any excuse to panic about our test squad.
They have played 8 Tests this year with their first-choice team (test 3 vs Lions was with 10 changes, remember) – six against the number 2 and 3 ranked teams in the world, and the other 2 against the British & Irish Lions) – and won 7 of those!!!
Until that awesome record is undone (which I doubt is gonna appen this tour!!) I refuse to be drawn into paranoia and panic about our Main Frontline Bok Team.
GO BOKKE, and don’t take note of all the negative, nervous and paranoid fairweather supporters who are now doubting you just because of one really admittedly dismal performance by a team comprising players – none of whom were automatic starters for the test squad in any case.
The World Number One ranked team still proudly holds that titl – they have not played a match YET to suggest that they are in danger of slipping…….
So Tackler, you just keep on clutching at straws as you try to convince everybody (including yourself) that you belong in NZ.
Because we certainly don’t want RSA rejects back here.
And all you other Bok supporters – get over yourselves, and keep the trust and pride you had in the Bok squad – pre-Leicester – going. Because to date, NOTHING has changed.
And to SARU, the Provinces and all those responsible for player development at ALL levels, GET OFF YOUR ARSES and start sorting out our depth situation.
Surely it’s not the responsibility of the Bok Coaching staff to coach guys on how to play rugby properly. Surely when you reach national level you ought to be quality enough to slot in.
9 Nov 2009, 11:03 am
#145 justrugby: I’m not saying JS is a scrumming machine all I’m saying is that he is the best choice at TH in the country at the moment. We have very few THs better than JS purely as a player, but many Hookers. So the best thing for SA right now is JS at 3. What SA based TH would you rather play on Saturday at the cost of Bissie as well. To drop someone you need to have a replacement and the sad fact is SA don’t have any replacements for JS in SA at the moment hence the SOS call to CJ.
9 Nov 2009, 11:03 am
#148 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Boet….we never gonna agree…so whats the use….
Cheers now…
Sorry for losing my temper.
9 Nov 2009, 11:07 am
#145 justrugby: So would you start HVDM, Bissie, WP Nel on this tour instead of Beast, Bissie, Smit? Drop our captain after a stellar year. Et tu Brutus?
9 Nov 2009, 11:07 am
What’s going on here, is Grant10 a schizo? One minute he’s decent the next he’s shouting his mouth off… Weird Monday.
Anyway, it seems the simple fact is we have our strongest front row players on tour. So lets see how we go in the test match with our first choice, before we start bleating off about it all. Although the French fields and weight under foot will no doubt be different to the Leicester ground…
9 Nov 2009, 11:07 am
#152 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): theres the sentimentality again…
9 Nov 2009, 11:09 am
#153 Mutant: Ja…sorry about that….Ratel Pisses me off a lot….but i need to behave.Apologies
9 Nov 2009, 11:10 am
the problem were the only experienced guys dropping us.
You must stop with this racist labbeling of players of colour as kwotas.
The tight five was the more ex[perienced and they did not perform.
9 Nov 2009, 11:11 am
#154 grant10: Logic Grant. The guy has just lead us to one of our best years and Justrugby wants to drop him? For an uncapped greenhorn. That’s not logical. take anger and pride out of your argument and re-look at your and justrugby front-row selections to start against France. I’m much more confident in our current combo.
9 Nov 2009, 11:11 am
#150 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
Depth at TH and 10 giving me sleeples nights.
I mentioned my TH in my last post, don’t let the age factor be an issue, at TH if you have the technique and strength you will be ok, Nel has both, Smitty has the strength for sure but due to his body type his tequnique is not good and without the combination of technique and strength you will at times be found wanting !!
9 Nov 2009, 11:14 am
#145 justrugby: JS started as a TH, fact. Beast is one of the best LH in the world, fact (whether he used to be a loosie or not)
I agree we need to learn to not have JS on the field at all times, but we’ve also seen how bad it is when he is off – we lose matches we should win. Another leader needs to step up but at this moment in time Smit needs to be on the field, simple. Perhaps hooker is better for him, but with who at 3? This is the first time CJ has been given a route in. I’m not convinced Nel is ready for a NH EOY Springbok Tour as the starting TH.
9 Nov 2009, 11:15 am
Horses for courses in front row will be the way forward….for eg…if that bloody aussie at loosehead dont play Smit!!
9 Nov 2009, 11:15 am
#158 justrugby: Still don’t agree with dropping our captain for a youngster who hasn’t even played regular S14, sorry if that makes me an imbecile.
9 Nov 2009, 11:17 am
#157
Agree.
I all our tests this year, we were not once overpowered..
Why do we keep on wanting to create problems for ourselves.
Cobus Visagie and Os said that your TH matures at 28
9 Nov 2009, 11:20 am
#19 Cheetha Champs:
Best post I’ve read regarding the match on Friday.
#27 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
How many chances must WO get before we realise that he is not of international quality? If I’m not mistaken he already had about 30 odd chances. Don’t you think that’s enough? A good CC and Super rugby player yes, but an international he’s not.
It’s time to realise that he and Jannie Dup just don’t cut it as internationals.
#42 grant10:
Don’t agree that a precedent has been set. PdV always said that he would look at overseas players if he feel there is no one in SA who can do the job. Remember Butch James, last year?
#79 TheTackler: At the beginning of the year you led 42-30. We cut your lead by a full 25% in one year. Watch this space.
9 Nov 2009, 11:22 am
#160 grant10: Yes Robinson does seem to have the upper hand over Smit. But again, how much of that is ref’s interpretation – it was only really one game that the Aussies dominated us…And we can’t really keep dropping our captain every odd test.
9 Nov 2009, 11:25 am
#161 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
No you have an opinion which is great and it stimulates debate……..but as I have said before there needs to be life after JS !!!
Maybe you need to answer the question I posed , if JS receives a carreer ending injury tomorrow, what happens then ??
9 Nov 2009, 11:29 am
#158 justrugby:
When JS was moved to TH, there were no obvious THs in contention in SA, other than JduP. The fact that WP has come to the fore in the CC is no justification for dropping the captain.
9 Nov 2009, 11:31 am
#165 justrugby: Then we pick the Greenhorn and you have your wish. Why do you think PdV wants Heinke able to play TH? Cause we have none in the country, yet you want to drop JS for…….. Nobody.
9 Nov 2009, 11:31 am
France:
15-Damien Traille, 14-Vincent Clerc, 13-Yann David, 12-Maxime Mermoz, 11-Cedric Heymans, 10-Francois Trinh-Duc, 9-Julien Dupuy, 8-Louis Picamoles, 7-Imanol Harinordoquy, 6-Thierry Dusautoir (captain), 5-Romain Millo-Chluski, 4-Lionel Nallet, 3-Nicolas Mas, 2-William Servat, 1-Fabien Barcella
Replacements: 16-Dimitri Szarzewski, 17-Sylvain Marconnet, 18-Sebastien Chabal, 19-Julien Bonnaire, 20-Morgan Parra, 21-David Marty, 22-Maxime Medard
9 Nov 2009, 11:33 am
French centre’s have 6 caps between them. And Traille is a centre playing at Full Back. I smell a victory. JF to calve them up, if the pack gets a look in.
9 Nov 2009, 11:33 am
#137 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): hahha
u r hilarious dude
funny thing is they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit
9 Nov 2009, 11:34 am
Grant you need to chill and tolerate other people’s views…thats the point of this blog surely….you seem to think that your view is the only one worth listening to..
9 Nov 2009, 11:37 am
#166 David: Exactly, thankfully sense prevails somewhere on this blog.
9 Nov 2009, 11:40 am
#170 Papoose: “hahha
u r hilarious dude funny thing is they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit”
Are you tuning me, whilst being sarcastic yourself? A rare kind of hypocrite you are.
9 Nov 2009, 11:43 am
people also tend to forget that the sharks front row was the best sa front row on show during the super 14…
9 Nov 2009, 11:45 am
#167 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
We will go round in circles on this debate, one thing you can be sure of is when JS runs on and he has a No3 on his back Grant 10 and myself are 100% behind him and if we could be in that scrum to help him, we would be !!!
9 Nov 2009, 11:46 am
#166 David: Have to agree here. Nel is a one season wonder so far. Hopefully he pushes on next year and becomes a high quality TH.
#171 gunther: He has apologised somewhere down the line.
#170 Papoose: Is this serious? Or is Pa being a po@s?
9 Nov 2009, 11:50 am
#171 gunther: ja…sorry G…apologies
9 Nov 2009, 11:52 am
#175 justrugby: Grant 10 and Justrugby
Name the games when JS got dominated at tighthead? Yes, he has been bullied a few times but the ref plays a big part.
Even Os got mocked a few times in his career. Remember that? Short tightheads dominating him? Ring any bells?
The only oke I have never seen get mocked is Piet Bester!
9 Nov 2009, 11:54 am
#178 Oubaas2009: Yeah, go Oubaas!!
9 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
Hey guys
What do you think of the following team for the boks on friday:
15. Kirchner
14. Pietersen
13. Fourie
12. Olivier
11. Habana
10. Steyn
9. Du Preez
8. Kankovski
7. Bismark (He is fast enough for northern hemosphere rugby at flank)
6. Brussouw
5. Matfield
4. Bakkies
3. CJ
2. Smit
1. Beast
Subs:
16. Strauss
17. Wian du Preez
18. Bekker
19. Rossouw
20. Burger
21. Pienaar
22. Jacobs
I think this pack will murder the french….
9 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
I hope Piet Bester makes a comeback! He would teach the Freestate frontrow some disipline.
9 Nov 2009, 12:00 pm
#178 Oubaas2009:
Oubaas the problem is the front row in it’s entirety !!
Beast not the strongest , Bissy has been criticised for being to upright (I cannot say if this is tue or not, I am no specialist), JS not a specialist TH and technique is questionable.
So collectively as a front row they struggle.
But as others see it they do not struggle, therfore for the sake of boring bloggers i will from my side put this to rest now !!
9 Nov 2009, 12:02 pm
#178 Oubaas2009: lets leave this now….its tired!
9 Nov 2009, 12:04 pm
#180 Cheetahboytjie: What you smoking? Bismark on the flank? Its time to pass the dubie bro, you’ve had your turn
9 Nov 2009, 12:05 pm
#178 Oubaas2009: Sharks versus Cheetahs – CC semi final 2009
9 Nov 2009, 12:06 pm
#184 Oubaas2009: agree!!
9 Nov 2009, 12:06 pm
#181 Oubaas2009: I wish another Piet would come back to teach Jonathan Kaplan a f*cking lesson
9 Nov 2009, 12:08 pm
#184 Oubaas2009: Pack it, stack it, fire it up, come along, and take a hit from the bong with Cheetahboytie!
I do think the bench is going to be a 5-2 split though, maybe with a whole new front row on the bench. Might be tempted to play Danie at 8 though. Never let us down there and not sure Kanko will be suited to the tighter NH games, and heavier fields. Although he deserves and extended chance…
9 Nov 2009, 12:09 pm
#183 grant10:
amen lets rather tlak about whether kanko is going to cut the mustrd at 8….
9 Nov 2009, 12:09 pm
French named their side; very strong unit
15-Damien Traille, 14-Vincent Clerc, 13-Yann David, 12-Maxime Mermoz, 11-Cedric Heymans, 10-Francois Trinh-Duc, 9-Julien Dupuy, 8-Louis Picamoles, 7-Imanol Harinordoquy, 6-Thierry Dusautoir (captain), 5-Romain Millo-Chluski, 4-Lionel Nallet, 3-Nicolas Mas, 2-William Servat, 1-Fabien Barcella
Replacements: 16-Dimitri Szarzewski, 17-Sylvain Marconnet, 18-Sebastien Chabal, 19-Julien Bonnaire, 20-Morgan Parra, 21-David Marty, 22-Maxime Medard
9 Nov 2009, 12:10 pm
#178 Oubaas2009: #182 justrugby: Schalk Britz critised bissie. Pot calling kettle black.
9 Nov 2009, 12:11 pm
The Bokke are the team who better be prepared for a forward assault of note.
The french enjoy the physical stuff, their top 14 is an incredibly physical competition, just ask victor matfield and john smit.
the key here is intensity and sustained intensity, the english beat the french regularly because while the french come out with alot of passion and fire, it will take a sustained intense effort to put them down.
9 Nov 2009, 12:13 pm
#188 Mutant: Hee hee.
Bok Bench:
Strauss
CJ
Bekker
Danie
Deysel
Ruan
WO
9 Nov 2009, 12:14 pm
#47 Cheetah 4 Eva: don’t talk bullshit.the all blacks build up their nice cushion when the boks reserved one position for window dressing purposes…chester williams used to fill that one position in the beginning.the blacks time after time smashed your so-called blue-eyed superior afrikaaner boys,don’t blame quotas for your own kuk.
9 Nov 2009, 12:15 pm
#188 Mutant: please no! danie’s hands are not good enough.He is a good runner and tough as nails. Seeing as that the scrum is probably going to go backwards, i think we need a player there who can better handle it. my loose trio.
6. Brussouw
7. Danie
8. Schalk
9 Nov 2009, 12:16 pm
#192 cab: Yes, agreed. The French probably play their rugby a lot closer to SA’s style that most other International teams. Good hard passionate forward play with moments of sheer flair and brilliance from their backlines.
SA though will have to go into the game with the mindset that this game is 80 minutes; absolutely no chance of sitting back if they’ve built any sort of lead.
9 Nov 2009, 12:17 pm
#194 Valkyrie: Oh live in the present. Look before isolation Boks dominated you, then we needed a few years to catch-up (still beat you when it mattered) and now after years back in international rugby, things are returning to normal and the boks are back on top.
9 Nov 2009, 12:21 pm
15-Zane Kirchner,14-JP Pietersen,13-Jacque Fourie,12-Adi Jacobs,11-Bryan Habana,10-Morne Steyn,9-Fourie Du Preez,8-Ryan Kankowski,7-Schalk Burger,6-Heindrich Brussow,5-Victor Matfield,4-Bakkies Botha,3-John Smit,2-Bismarck Du Plessis,1-Tendai Mtawira
Replacements: 16-Andries Strauss,17-CJ Van der Linde,18-Ashley Johnson,19-Danie Rossouw,20-Dewald Potgeiter 21-Ruan Pienaar,22-Wynand Olivier
Ruan covers 9,10 and 15.
Wynand covers 12,13
Jacque Fourie moves to wing if 11 or 14 injured
CJ can cover 1 and 3 (played test loosehead against England a few years ago or JS covers 1.)
Strauss covers 2 or JS
Ashley covers 8
Danie covers 4/5
Dewald covers 6/7
9 Nov 2009, 12:21 pm
#195 bored@work: Yes, I like that loose trio too for the NH. I don’t think our pack will be going backwards though. Who is the ref on Friday night?
9 Nov 2009, 12:22 pm
#196 Richie_7:
agree with alot of that…if that is the team at 190, they seem to have gone for a tough backrow and have correctly picked nallet.
Bokke have more grit, but will need to reach deep down for it, frenchies will be up for this one. if bokke come to toulouse for the cassoulet and tannies, they get gatte handed to them.
9 Nov 2009, 12:22 pm
#197 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Life is a circle; sometimes you’re on top, and sometimes you’re at the bottom. Point being that every team out there will need to introduce youth at some stage and every team will go through a rebuilding phase. In a perfect world these rebuilding phases of each team would be at exactly the same time and we could then properly guage who is “the best”.
But while you’re out there comparing c*ck sizes, I just enjoy watching the rugby. You should try that sometime.
9 Nov 2009, 12:23 pm
#197 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
“the boks are back on top.”
Not for long Ratelsnake, if Leicester is any indication of your depth.
Enjoy the moment……….Normality, you will not like.
9 Nov 2009, 12:24 pm
#198 Oubaas2009: Ashley also covers 2… 4 hookers in the match 22!
9 Nov 2009, 12:26 pm
#202 cane: The Tri-Nations might be a better indication of Springbok rugby….3-0 over the All Blacks. Normality is bliss.
9 Nov 2009, 12:28 pm
#204 Mutant: Cane is right though , a few injuries and SA will struggle to defend their title at the next WC
9 Nov 2009, 12:30 pm
#205 stew: Truth be told, if the Boks lost John Smit before the next WC they’d be in trouble
9 Nov 2009, 12:31 pm
#197 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): i am a bok supporter mate but i don’t like it when people type bullshit blaming the all blacks superior record on quotas.if cheetah4 can’t beat tackler at his own game he should not not talk **** just to feel better.
9 Nov 2009, 12:32 pm
#199 Mutant: I really really hope I am wrong and we don’t go backwards. I know people have debated this at length and i don’t really want to go into it again but I do feel that our front row is not strong enough. They do, however, add so much in the lose that it is difficult to drop one of them. Oh well, that why PDV and them get paid the big bucks, to have to make these decisions and all of us giving them a lot of sh*t.
I have no idea who the ref is, hopefully not an aussie or kiwi. (i just remembered that rumour about how the kiwi and aussie refs emailed each other to “get the japies” or something like that)
9 Nov 2009, 12:32 pm
#205 stew: If the whole team gets injured, maybe. But one or two outsiders can easily fit in – look at Brussow and Morne Steyn this year, who got their chancec thanks to injuries. We’re not trying to put out the best reserve team in the world, our first choice Test side is what must be judged.
So cane is wrong. This is all heresay. The only fact is that the Boks won 5 of 6 TN games, and beat the blacks 3 times, in home and away games.
9 Nov 2009, 12:35 pm
#209 Mutant: Congrats, want another trophy?
9 Nov 2009, 12:36 pm
#205 stew:
Injuries to Carter and Mccaw and AB’s sit with same problem, really a mute point !!
9 Nov 2009, 12:37 pm
#211 justrugby: Dunno about McCaw; hasn’t really done much this season
9 Nov 2009, 12:39 pm
#210 Richie_7: No thanks, cabinet bulging – no space.
Hey, we’ve got to celebrate when they come as it’s not too often. My point is that the Leicester result means so little in the greater scheme of things, yet all the AB supporters love going on about it. But I guess cling on to whatever small weakness you can find.
9 Nov 2009, 12:39 pm
#203 Mutant: Joost would like that.
9 Nov 2009, 12:40 pm
Money on France to win – assuming Jean de Villiers and Francois are not part of the team (which I’m pretty sure they won’t be) – money on France to win because of the absence of these two players; all overconfidence on Springbok physicality is overstated against a French team rated by Brad Thorne as the more physical of the two; madness not to play Steyn and de Villiers – sheer stubborn-headed madness and we will pay the price; it’s an almost-certainty – I strongly favour France to win this game and it is very unusual for me to say something like that.
9 Nov 2009, 12:42 pm
#214 Oubaas2009: LOL! And imagine the books he could write then.
9 Nov 2009, 12:44 pm
#212 Richie_7: He’s still about a quarter of the team – blacks struggle lots without him.
9 Nov 2009, 12:44 pm
The forwards bench selection is what interests me. Will we go for a full front row and Rossouw as the only lock with Potgieter as the loosie or pick CJ and Strauss with both Danie and Andries plus Potgieter? I doubt whether Deysel will walk straight into the Bok squad as Pottie was probably the designated replacement for Spies.
9 Nov 2009, 12:44 pm
#213 Mutant: I agree completely. It was an experiment that didn’t go to plan. Anyways, it was good to give the second stringers a run; didn’t do their confidence much good but hopefully they’ll take lessons from the loss and it will aid their maturity as players.
9 Nov 2009, 12:49 pm
#213 Mutant: when the irish beat an experimental bok team in dublin before the world cup they were so cocky and proud(no problem with proud)that they actually mentioned winning the world cup but we all now know what happened to them.kiwis are always cocky and proud since 1987 believing that they will win every world cup but we all know that is just a fantasy ,they just don’t know it yet.
9 Nov 2009, 12:52 pm
#215 J.B. Cowper: Thorn had no impact against SA, he was motm against France. It doesn’t make sense that he found the latter to be more physical.
9 Nov 2009, 12:52 pm
#216 Mutant: The problem with our scrum is simple. We only ever have 2 people scrumming in the front row. The hooker is always at Joosts place
9 Nov 2009, 12:52 pm
#220 Valkyrie: hey, before we all start pushing out our chests and having a “mines-bigger-that-yours” contest, let’s look at this properly. Even after the Boks won the WC they themselves admitted to wanting to measure themselves up to the AB’s the following trinations. Now if the players themselves from the two respective teams can respect each other so highly, why can’t we do the same as supporters?
9 Nov 2009, 12:55 pm
#223 Richie_7: agree. boks vs all blacks is still the greatest rivalry in the sport.
9 Nov 2009, 12:56 pm
#223 Richie_7: what part don’t you like?the fantasy part?lol
9 Nov 2009, 12:57 pm
yeah thorne is very good, but bakkies had his number, no doubt.
kankofski needs to mentally prepare himself for a scrap if he’s to by any good and the boks dont win as much of the ball as they hope too.
9 Nov 2009, 13:02 pm
#223 Richie_7: don’t be so sensitive!when the all blacks win their second world cup all jokes will have to come to an end but in the meantime you will have to live with it just like i have to do with jokes about my beloved proteas.
9 Nov 2009, 13:02 pm
#225 Valkyrie: Two WC’s and still behind on the overall win ratio. Must eat you LOL
9 Nov 2009, 13:04 pm
in all likelyhood, our scrum will sort itself out by Friday. Get your heads right, and the rest will follow.And, we have some pretty good quality on the bench as well if needed.
Adi Jacobs at 12 is the biggest gamble this weekend.
Especially as it looks increasingly likely that there will be only 2 backs on the bench.
9 Nov 2009, 13:05 pm
#228 Richie_7:
errm no.
…all those wins and still can’t win the ones that count?
9 Nov 2009, 13:11 pm
#228 Richie_7: if it makes you happy you can believe it but all i know is that i had two big ****** parties and hangovers afterwards in 1995 and 2007.
9 Nov 2009, 13:16 pm
#231 Valkyrie: 22 years since the AB’s could party, hard times. But as long as their backup players look good against club sides I suppose who would complain. Richie7, practise what you preach (post 223)
But Bored is right, AB’s-Boks is the biggest game in rugby. They’ve even just made a movie about it!
9 Nov 2009, 13:17 pm
#231 Valkyrie: Kinda like we’ve felt every year (barring a few) after every super 14 and trinations. ’95 the Boks won at home so no big surprise, and 2007 we never made the party so well done to ya
9 Nov 2009, 13:22 pm
#233 Richie_7: Forced to party on the scraps below the VIP area
9 Nov 2009, 13:27 pm
#234 Mutant: I’ve left for another thread, but if I keep feeding you scraps here I bet you’ll stay puppy
9 Nov 2009, 13:28 pm
#233 Richie_7: lol.i feel your pain bro.since 1987 kiwi world cup rugby has gone into recession and had to give up on the finer things in life like the william webb ellis trophy just like poor iceland are now forced to give up on their mcdonalds stores.****** recession!
9 Nov 2009, 13:33 pm
#234 Mutant: thats where they keep the sheep so its great for them
just joking kiwi’s!
9 Nov 2009, 13:34 pm
#235 Richie_7: You’re right. But it seems to work both ways…always puppy with the big dog lifting Bill
9 Nov 2009, 15:20 pm
How could these guys lack intensity? This was their chance to show they belong at the big table and most of them were missing in action. Johnson showed the kind of gees and tenacity of someone who wanted to take his chance with both hands. Rose showed glimpses of the talent we all know he has, but seems reluctant to show on a consistent basis. De Jongh used his chances manfully and Danie threw himself into everything. But the front row didn’t have a clue, Devon was nowhere to be seen and Ruan proved what a lot have known for some time, great scrumhalf, poor flyhalf. He was the biggest disappointment, given his experience and talent. He has fallen way behind Morne to the extent that we need to consider another player for the role of backup flyhalf. ruan is just missing something. It may be BMT, it may be a deepseated reluctance to play 10. Whatever it is, lets face facts and groom someone like Brummer or Francis for the role.
9 Nov 2009, 15:27 pm
#239 stormer in a teacup:
yes Johnson and Potgieter were good selections, but raubenheimer, maku, rallapelle, ndungane, jan dup – were not.
9 Nov 2009, 20:02 pm
I think Keo rests deep up Jake’s Winning arse (around 40%) and spends too much time moaning about PdV’s 73% win record.
Nobody agrees with all the selections- they’re certainly not all merit but the coach has his favourites (like Jake did)
I really hope the next Bok coach is white so we dont have to listen to morons like keo, rich, vrede and every other hill billy moan all the time even though Peter won everything there was to win.
What more do South Africans want. To beat the Leicester Tigers? Grow up, the match was an experiment!
9 Nov 2009, 20:15 pm
#241 The Dude: all good and well if it was an experiment why put the bok tag on them, that was a fkn stupid move.
9 Nov 2009, 22:03 pm
#157 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
Thank you Ratel for highlighting Grant10′s flawed logic!
9 Nov 2009, 22:36 pm
Unfortunately, to be the WOPRLD’s BEST side, every single player must have all the skils, the size, the power and the attitude AND X-factor. There are simply no spaces for also rans.
for players like
J du Plessis,
Kanko,
Rose (but can learn skills and has X factor)
Gurthro
Muller
Heinie Adams (no X- factor – like Genia for example)
They have nebver shown that they have all of this. Some ave the X-factor but need time in gym, others jsut dont have attitude.
10 Nov 2009, 03:43 am
**** selections fullstop. Way too many oldies, hangers on and quotas.
10 Nov 2009, 09:19 am
#244 SjamBok: Stop commenting now before you make a *** of yourself. Shizen, you already have.
10 Nov 2009, 16:48 pm
The imitation Bok 15 did as well as they should have. Welcome to the real world chinas. Yes this isn’t the Currie Cup..
11 Nov 2009, 10:02 am
#242 byoboy: byoboy The fixtures were drawn way before the match. I think if the Boks would have suffered a 2009 like Australia, England and New Zealand did
then we would have seen a different South Africa against Leicester Tigers. So next year should read:
Saracens Vs The has-beens joined by the transformers in an experiment XV.
I think I’ll banner that… No… Autotune
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