Tigers torture no issue for Boks
The Springbok coaches have called for perspective on the defeat to Leicester but are wary of the test that awaits them against France in Toulouse.
An inexperienced and ill-equipped South Africa were beaten 22-17 by a second-string Tigers outfit last Friday, exposing poor selections and under-preparation, particularly with regards to scrummaging, a facet of play were they were decimated.
However, head coach Peter de Villiers remained optimistic in his view of the defeat and diabolical performance, saying, ‘There are more positives than negatives in the loss.
‘Now we know where we’re going. We knew it would be tough with only a week’s preparation. It was an eye-opener, but if we didn’t have the game we wouldn’t have known what we do now.’
De Villiers peddled the same rhetoric after a Springbok B side were schooled by the British & Irish Lions in the third Test, making his explanation for the latest embarrassment perplexing. He continued by offering a lack of leadership for the dirt-trackers (captain Chiliboy Ralepelle limped off with a foot injury 20 minutes into the contest) as a mitigating factor for the defeat.
‘One of the problems we have agreed upon is that of leadership. We now know to address that,’ he said.
The first-choice Springbok combination won’t be short of experienced leaders on Friday evening, and will be favourites for victory, having bagged the notable scalps of the Lions and their southern hemisphere rivals Australia and New Zealand.
They will, however, have to make exponential improvements to the standard of scrummaging they have exhibited thus far to negotiate the challenge of Les Tricolores, as well as hope that the replacements for outstanding loose forwards Juan Smith and Pierre Spies offer them similar value in their areas of specialisation.
Assistant coach Gary said France would be as tough as the All Blacks, who the Springboks have beat thrice in Tri-Nations, in terms of physicality.
‘They have a big strong pack and they will be very physical,’ Gold said. ‘They’re the one team in the world with New Zealand who can match our forwards with size.
‘They’re an emotional team, with a lot of passion. They’ll be playing in a small stadium, and if a French side comes out firing they can rip the heart out of anybody.’
November 9th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
#194 David:
Making that kind of a bold statement first requires a definition:
“What WAS The midweek side ever supposed to be then”?
Does it need the C Team of Leicester to expose the futility of a non merit selection of 11 players who wouldn’t even make the Super14 bench?
I think not
November 9th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
#74 Tacitus: Amen, Amen Amen to everything you say.
#76 sharks_lover: And if you doing the same, minus the racism slant, what does that make you? Just a plain old bigot?
#80 sharks_lover:
You said it mate! No use running off Deysel or Ashley for that matter, they never pass the ball at any rate!
#113 sharks_lover:
Now you’re starting to make sense. Those 3 as a combo will be giantkillers.
November 9th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
#197 David: you’re getting close…the premise is that the super14 coaches are not helping the national cause ie Transforming Rugby in this country…PDV is a case in point…SARU had to bite the bullet & appoint him regardless of the ridicule & invective that thay anticipated…that’s what i reckon pdv was going for with some of the “off-beat selections” and i expect him to apply his “theory” of “black mechanic/white mechanic”
if he can perservere with a ouit of sorts pierre spies, then he can show faith in any other player he rates highly.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
#197 David:#194 David: what was it supposed to be then? a fkn embarrassment?
November 9th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
again I ask which of those 22 that played against Leicester are not merit based and which were not next best?
Pdv was looking to promote players he believed could step up. He was wrong with a few but who were they?
1. Pienaar, Eddy Jones own Larkham type prodigy?
2. Roussouw, JW.’s (and Pdv’s) no.2 lock option behind Bakkies Botha?
3. Steenkamp, JW’s no.2 Lh prop behind Os Durant?
4. Du Plessis, Sharks backup no.2 bok TH in the country behind another pap broek Th J. Smit?
5. Bekker, 2nd in line line out option lock behind Matfield?
6. Olivier, next best no. 12 center behind Jdv?
7. Ndungane, incumbent bok right wing if JPP gets injured or subbed?
That tight 5 let the team down. The rot got exposed in the tight 5, not Raubenheimer, or Potgieter, or Johnson, or Adams, or De Jongh, or Nokwe, or Rose or Hargreaves or Viljoen or Deysel or Nokwe.
If the seasoned bok tight 5 players had stood up to the task the rest of the team would have won. Blame transformation and de merit selections all you like, the soft belly of the overrated springbok tight 5 back up was severely exposed. And I got a hunch the front line tight 5 and centers and full back going to get exposed perhaps just as bad this week coming.
Some us supporters been screaming into the ether that we living on borrowed credentials. We think we far stronger than we actually are. I would have brought new players into the front line team long ago already. Only now we going to see the results of trading on borrowed over traded legacy too long. Some big ego’s might get bust as a result. But rugby is not a stagnant gauge of talent and ability. You don’t move with the development and progress within your own talent base you going to come a cropper.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
#195 cab:
Hoskins is not the problem here
The problem are those among us who paid attention to his drivel and took his nonsense as a face value.
Every time this CC season when Steenkamp took the field against Smit, FS’ Nel, Brock Harris or Kevin Buys he was whacked, now, how on earth you could select that token against a TH name Castrogiovani?
November 9th, 2009 at 8:13 pm
#197 David:
in its plain meaning ‘merit’ means the best, class or race is irrelevant.
we can use carefully constructed words like ‘transformation’ or ‘development’, or argue as to a subjective frame of reference of merit – but i would ask you a simple question, if you were to pick a side (the next best after the bok XV) to play for your life, would you currently pick ralapelle over liebenberg or raubenheimer over deysel?
#198 Transformation:
yes point 1 is definitely right, but whether or not transformation should be considered a necessary evil is for ppl to discuss and decide for themselves, i would say it is not clearcut at all – sins of the father and all.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
can guarantee you Hondo that whichever Lh we played against Castrogiovani he would have got taken apart. Just as Heinke van der Merwe got to find out. Meanwhile on the other side of the scrum our other seasoned bok back up Th was getting shown his *** maybe even worse.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
#205 skopskiet:
i said already who i considered to be quota selections.
Ralapelle, Maku, Raubenheimer should never have been there. They are not even close to the best in their position but worse have not played any regular first grade rugby.
They might be great players one day, but their is absolutely no justification for their being made Springboks other than race reservation based purely on skin colour.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
#207 cab: until someone comes with an alternative & workable solution i reckon it will continue…because putting faith in people just changing their perceptions & habits fostered over years of indoctrination is a pipe dream.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
the real problem with our game on fri was the very poor play up front in the loose and during set pieces, our fowards weren’t up for it and on top of that Ruan had a shocker of a game. Ruan should be left at 9.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
#209 cab:
Do we have to assume then that Heini Adams, Earl Rose, Ashly Johnson and Nokwe are the best at their positions?
That’s what I conclude from your posting
November 9th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
#201 Hondo: #204 byoboy:
Stop looking at it from the perspective of who you think should have been selected and see it from what the perspective of what the intention was.
The core of that side were senior players from the Bok squad who generally came on off the bench. This included the whole tight five, the flyhalf and inside centre and both wings. Initially it was also supposed to include Brussow on the flank. Potgieter was also included, I suspect, as a replacement for Spies in the squad. Into that mix were a few players who were kept out of S14 game time for various reasons that the coaches wanted to get a better look at.
I would also like to point out that the CC is not the basis for full Bok selection, the S14 is.
Considering that most bloggers here reckon the CC is way above the NH competitions for quality, a game against what we knew would be a depleted Tigers side shouldn’t have posed a problem.
The reality, of course, was rather different.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
I tell you where the problem is. Not Raubenheimer or Maku, Chili yes was an experiment doomed to fail. But Maku actually climbed in in the loose.
That f.ak up on Friday night you can lay squarely at the 2 soft pap broek seasoned props door. And a fly half that cringes when he has to deliver under pressure. Plus a right wing that is not an international class wing even though he’s been deputing for JPP since 2007 and even before.
Raubenheimer was in over his head to some extent, but the rot was in the tight 5, all long serving reasoned bok’s apart from the stand in hooker who did pretty much ok.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
#82 skopskiet: I can’t fault your reasoning there Skoppie!
If the Boks go into the French test with the wrong loosie on the bench, we WILL lose. The sad thing is we are going to sit here next week lamenting his absense. And by the way, whoever reckons he is not physical or hard enough have never been tackled by him.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
#212 Hondo:
No, but at least some of those get regular starting time and have play regular topgrade rugby in the S14.
De Jong and to a lesser extent Johnson add alot to the Bok squad. Mapoe would’ve done the same. Those are proper merit-only springbok selections.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
#213 David:
It’s a well known mantra that it takes one passanger among the forwards to lose a rugby game
There were 4 on Friday: Steenkamp, Chiliboy/Maku, Ruabenheimer and Johnson.
They were whacked by a combination of Leicester’s ‘B’ and Reserved teams.
I took a bet on Friday morning and won comfortably, am I the only rugby knowledgable here?
November 9th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
#205 skopskiet:
You know Skoppie I wish you would tone down on the racial baggage cause I reckon I agree with you mostly on things rugby.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
and Hondo’s mind simply can’t get round the fact that Rose and Nokwe played far better than seasoned Jw selections Pienaar and Ndungane.
I personally would have picked totally different players in position, but then I would have picked current form players from the Cc. I would have disregarded prissy prestige and reputation altogether.
My team would have represented the players that shone in the Cc and not one of those front 5 apart from Bekker would have started.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
#217 Hondo:
I would add Dr Jannie Dup to the passenger list and remove Johnson who played quite well imo.
Danie Rossouw was also very average and Bekker only slightly better.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
with the possible exception of raubenheimer, that forward pack should have matched the pack of any of the top 4 cc teams, never mind a leicester b team.
with the proper preparation that is.
but they had slapgat **** muir preparing them while pdv and gg were with the “1st” team.
they were caught cold because there was no hardnosed forwards coach making sure they scrummed as a unit on the hit and made the rucks their own.
stop blaming individuals – i am sick of you guys laying into gurthro, chili, jdp, bekker and pakslae.
they didn’t have a chance
November 9th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
the last “Springboks XV” to play before this one looked a little something like this.
Chiliboy makes history
Twenty year old Chiliboy Ralepelle will captain the Springbok XV when they take on the World XV on Sunday.
The SA U21 skipper becomes the first black player to lead a senior South African team in history, and the youngest across all demographics. He is also the second player from Pretoria Boys’ High to receive such an honour, John Smit being the first.
Ralepelle’s Vodacom Blue Bulls captain Gary Botha is on the bench for the first time on tour, and is expected to get game time in the second half, at which time he will also assume the leadership of the Bok team. This is also a first for Botha, who too has captained South Africa at U21 level.
The team for this non-cap international sees 10 changes from the side who defeated England at Twickenham last week. Wynand Olivier remains in the midfield, but Francois Steyn moves to flyhalf. In the pack, Danie Rossouw and Johan Ackermann stay put, while try-scorer CJ van der Linde shifts back to the tighthead side.
Ruan Pienaar finally gets a chance to start at scrumhalf, and JP Pietersen is also given a game albeit on the wing. After a tough introduction to Test rugby against the Irish at Lansdowne Road, Bevin Fortuin and Jaco Pretorius are once again named at fullback and right wing respectively.
Of the players who have flown over recently, De Wet Barry gets his first match in Springbok colours since the flop against France in June. Gerrie Britz and Wikus van Heerden join Rossouw in a big back row, while Meyer Bosman and Jongi Nokwe warm the bench.
Springbok XV: 15 Bevin Fortuin, 14 Jaco Pretorius, 13 Wynand Olivier, 12 De Wet Barry, 11 JP Pietersen, 10 Francois Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Danie Rossouw, 7 Gerrie Britz, 6 Wikus van Heerden, 5 Albert van den Berg, 4 Johan Ackermann, 3 CJ van der Linde, 2 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 1 Deon Carstens. Replacements: 16 Gary Botha, 17 Lawrence Sephaka, 18 Selborne Boome, 19, Hilton Lobberts, 20 Ricky Januarie, 21 Meyer Bosman, 22 Jongi Nokwe.
This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 29th, 2006
November 9th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
#217 Hondo:
Your first sentence is spot on, but it was let down by 2 (not 4) of those selections. Ralapelle and Raubenheimer were carried.
However, transformation was def not the only reason for the loss, the other reason was that 3 of the tight 5 have not played regular first grade rugby for 80mins and the other reason was they were a team who had been throw together without any cohesion or training. A coach should be appointed and be allowed to work with these guys for a couple of weeks before, like the emerging boks v the BIL. in fact, wtf happened to Sykes and Deysel and Vermeulen who stood out in that game?
November 9th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Well i just hope i never live to see the day a Bok scrum gets so manhandled again…i was bloody embaressed to say the very least. This **** that the set scrum is defunct and just a way to start the game bit us very hard on Fri….and may even do so again this weekend.
I am thrilled that PDV has acted ruthlessly in righting the ship….good on him on getting in his namesake to assist….he should go a step further and make a scrum coach a permenent post in his management set up.
Also CJ will hopefully add some stability…although the radical step of moving Smit to the bench or to hooker will probably come later….cant see PDV doing it now.
We aint beat those frogs in France since 1997…..tough ask…..
Bench will be crucial….
November 9th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Morne Steyn and Hein Brussow excelled this year as they played in an established unit.
That is not the only reason, but it contributed far more than what the blokes like the keo writers would concede or understand.
Certainly the lack of: playing together, time to practise, combinations contributed to their performance. Also the different circumstances require getting used to.
This defeat is deliberately amplified but I know that if this same team plays together for 2-3 matches they would be a far better unit. I agree that certain players were very questionable for eg Raub before Deysel. Just plain stupid. And where did Hargreaves and Heinke come from all of the sudden?
Its actually terrible to play in that type of situation, cause you want to shine, but each man really wants to shine as an indiv cause there is no cohesion. Perhaps the 1st game must be shifted to a week later so these guys can at least practise together for 2 weeks.
But the situation is what it is: CC final and then a week later in NH. Not ideal.Even the 1st team will have to work hard to get its rhythm back and time is not on its side.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
#221 charo:
If that is the case that **** was left on his own to do the coaching we can also not blame him for the fiasco as he is not a forward coach.
Who can we blame?
November 9th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
#217 Hondo: Now you talking sense. Blaming the tight-5 is stupid. The loosies dropped them big time and no amount of short Jonsonal-bursts will change that.
They were useless in the line-out as well, you know just about when Chilli/Maku were stuffing up the calls/throw-in.
Rose was a laugh, please realize we were playing a second string club side. One chip pony!!!
November 9th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
#220 Robzim:
Take a cue from Olie Le Roux:
The Bok scrum was humiliated by the Tigers on Friday night, but Le Roux believes things will be different with Du Preez and Strauss in the tight five.
“Wian attacks the tighthead a lot more, while Gurthrö is struggling along. Adriaan also helps mould the front row into a unit. If you put Jannie du Plessis, Adriaan and Wian together, you’ll have a pretty decent front row,” said Le Roux.
The Tigers exploited that lack of game time. Leicester bullied South Africa in the scrums and Van der Merwe’s scrumming did not justify his selection.
“Anybody could see Peter de Villiers (Bok coach) included players who did not deserve to be there,” said Le Roux.
“Steenkamp did not deserve his selection considering form, while the hookers Ralepelle and Bandise Maku have not even proved themselves at Currie Cup level. It is unfair towards players that have performed.”
Say no more!
November 9th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
#227 Kronung:
many bad apples on that day of shame!
See what Olie Le Roux has to say in #228
November 9th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
the passengers in that team Friday night were Roussouw, Du Plessis, Steenkamp, Chili Boy, Raubenheimer, Pienaar, Ndungane and perhaps Olivier.
None of the others.
Pdv made the mistake of trying to fly his transformation potential left field options around a foundation of seasoned bok’s who are papper than pap. More overrated and swak than they ever realized. The front 5 second option players were all JW NO. 2’s in their position each and every one of them were designated back up 2nd string bok’s from LH to TH to the two back up locks. They the ones that folded none of your quota bashing boys like Rose or Adams or Johnson or De Jongh or Nokwe. Look at your swak front row and 2nd row thats where you better focus your attention, idiots, leave the quotas alone.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
#225 Sheriff:
To pick Heinke, who has not played any rugby for 6 months, ahead of battle hardened players must go down as one of the most stupid selections in SA rugby history.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
#228 Hondo:
Its amazing how often Ollie le Roux gets quoted.
I guess its just so much easier to locate him, narrow down your search to places where they sell hamburgers.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:55 pm
#225 Sheriff:
yes agree with alot of that. the cohesion and lack of match prep is largely unavoidable. i actually have no idea why a player like sykes was not on this tour, its really beyond me, especially after the role he and deysel played in the BIL pack.
November 9th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
#226 Robzim:
hi rob,
i have advocated a hardnosed forwards coach for some time. almost every other international team has one. gg is a rugby brain/analyst – not a scrumming maestro.
balie swart, matthew proudfoot, os etc have proved their worth.
**** knows zip about forward play. so 8 newcomers are meant to suddenly gel and take on a club team who know each other.
no chance in my book
November 9th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
#223 cab:
That’s an open, fair discussion
Let me ask you this:
For argument sake a coach has a performance clause in his contract, then say his job’s on the line, would such a coach carry the like of Chiliboy, Steenkamp, Maku, Raubenheimer, Adams, Rose and few more to face Ireland and France in Europe?
November 9th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
A scrum under pressure is 1 thing…..
a scrum going back l;ike a turbo chsrged Maserati is another!
Really difficult to judge any of those players outside of the pack….its just not fair….
Even the loosies cop flack for what is primarily a tight 5 stuff up…..
I just hope some players reputations dont suffer irrepatable harm ….especially guys like A Johnson and Dewalt Potgieter….
November 9th, 2009 at 8:59 pm
#231 Robzim:
Bizarre.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
#234 charo:
I guess you are right.
I saw on SABC news tonight Pieter de Villiers (the prop)working with the A team.
It appears as if he was urging them to pack down lower.
I am not sure whether such once-off sessions add much value though.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
tHEY SHOULD WORRY, THAT WAS A K*K TEAM SELECTION AND HALF THE OUS GAVE UP HALFWAY THRU THE 2ND HALF. Sorry CAPS, **** also didnt pay attention to european conditions this time of the year….and no back up of any note for Chiliboy. The Boks played poorly.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Why the suprise about the bad scrumming against a “second string” Leicster team? They scrummed against a “third string” bok team. The cheetahs front row desmantled the Sharks and Bulls however better than 1st but not good enough for the 2nd? Someone is pushing the bill…
November 9th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Potgieter and Brussow were the original flanks until Spies got injured, with Johnson at 8 and Raubenheimer on the bench. Does anyone have a serious problem with that? Wian has done very little, at 27 years, until this years CC to prove that he was an experienced or obvious replacement for Gurthro.
So, people would replace Danie with Sykes. Is that it?
November 9th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
our scrum is going to catch a wake up against France, we have had scrummage issues building for a while now.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
#232 Sheriff:
hehehe!
Remember when he dropped a ball on the try line in Aus few years ago?
The media there was making a mince of Olie looks for a Bar One on the pitch.
I tell you, that Castrogiovani is of a monster status we haven’t seen since the Lud Muller/Heinrich Rodgers/Atti Straus/Tommy Laubscher/Guy Kebble era.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
What I wanna know is how great was our Eoyt results the last 10 years, obviously those coaches like Streauli and White had performance clauses in their contracts and they didn’t select passengers, so how come they lost record scores to England, lost to Scotland, lost to Ireland every time they faced them, ditto for France. How come these performance based coaches that were so performance aligned and weren’t carrying any passengers f.ng LOST more than they won? Baffles the performance based brain!
Next time we play quotas just make sure we play a proper set of tight forwards to hang the transformation cookie on.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
#242 4man: Dont mention that…you will get shot for treason for stating the obvious!
November 9th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
#213 David: ‘a game against what we knew would be a depleted Tigers side shouldn’t have posed a problem.
The reality, of course, was rather different.’
your arguement that because the ‘bok’ side lost on fri means the CC is not as good as we think makes no sense at all.
the reason that we lost against the tigers doesn’t mean that our CC sides are weak, i rek our top 6 CC sides could have kicked the tiger’s asses. We lost that game due to
1. only 3 training sessions,
2. untested combos ;and
3 some 3rd rate selections made obviously due to racist political agendas.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
#241 David:
Well,
Moment of truth was last Friday, say no more
Wiam was good enough to nudge Oli Le Roux out of the Cheetahs front row, an excellent credential
November 9th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
#238 Robzim:
my view exactly – little knee jerk reaction sessions over a day or two add some value but we need a fulltime hardnosed no-kuk scrumming coach.
just like the old danie craven days when scrumming practice was hell but the forwards were well prepared for the game.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Just hope that the ex French 3 makes an impression on the front row….will be fantastic if we can at least get parity and secure our own ball from a solid platform. Then we in with a chance.
November 9th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
all the previous coahces had exactly the same transformation issues to deal with, and failed just as miserably. its got nothing to do with the coaches, its the policy, which means at least, maybe 2 and sometimes even more players are selected at a level where success depends on inches.