Cheeky not upset at Kings rejection
Cheeky Watson still says the Southern Kings will see Super Rugby action in future.
On Wednesday, Melbourne was awarded the 15th spot when the tournament expands in 2011, a decision that leaves the Port Elizabeth-based franchise struggling to achieve their goal. In future they could take the place of the worst-performing South African side, but they’ll have to first gain entry into the Currie Cup premier division.
Watson said he is ‘more resolute than ever’ in bringing Super Rugby to the Eastern Cape.
‘I said right at the beginning that we were not holding our hopes high on winning against Melbourne, so I’m not disappointed at all,’ EPRU president Watson told The Herald. ‘However, we are still fighting for a South African franchise like we were doing right from the beginning.’
Meanwhile, ARU CEO John O’Neill said this was a ‘vote for common sense’, as Melbourne would play in the Australian conference.
O’Neill added as many as 10 foreigners would be allowed to play for Melbourne, as not to deplete Australia’s other franchises.
‘The difference in broadcasting revenue between having a team in Melbourne versus having a team in Port Elizabeth was between a $15 million and $20 million [R137m] cost to Sanzar,’ according to O’Neill.
The Kings were deemed more ‘rugby ready’ than Melbourne, while the top Australian team in this year’s Super 14, the Waraths, ended fifth. Australia coach Robbie Deans was nonetheless ecstatic.
‘You’ve got rugby across the calendar year,’ said Deans. ‘You’ve got not only rugby, but local derbies, domestic rugby. Those two points alone are enormous. Easily said, but huge value.
‘It’s more top-end rugby and the reality is that players tend to be as good as the competitions they come out of and we’ve now got a top-end competition that will run from the start of the year to the finish.’
November 12th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
#49 stormer in a teacup: Apologies for punctuation.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Point is there is only place for 5 Sa franchises not 6. So decide who should fall away. Bulls, Lion’s, Cheetah’s, WP, Sharks or Spears.
In amateur era Sharks were B league because thats the level of player base they produced, the power bases being Bulls, Wp, Lions, FS, then E. Cape and Griquas, then Natal. To get it back to like for like systems where the feeder schools get their talents developed and exposed rather than raided by rich franchises will develop the talent to depth. At present Sharks are raiding talents off FS and Lions and E. Cape due to the lure of wealth rather than true sporting patriotism.
In my view professionalism sucks just another name for mercenary greed, call it whatever you like but it goes down as business not sport and also not developing infra structure to the people but rather the other way around.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
#49 stormer in a teacup:
Not being part of a regional franchise effectively precludes the best players from staying in the region. A franchise is important as a base to attract, as well as keep players there.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
The game should be about development, not commerce, but also about retaining traditions. Can you image dropping the Golden lions franchise, what an extreme f-up?
What SANZAR have done is justified their decisions based purely on commerce, into a region Melbourne where there is buggeral player base to speak of. This is not what development or growing the game should be about, instead the EC has a massive talent pool. SA deserves 6 franchises because it has a far larger player base than oz, its very simple.
In fact, the argies are even more deserved than Melbourne, except the travel conditions would be practically unbearable if they are included as well.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
#53 David: To a point. The Griquas finished ahead of the Lions in the CC and they are minor partners at best in the weakest franchise. They shed players to the other provinces each season but make the most of what they have and attract young talent who know that a well run team will offer them opportunities. Who are EP attracting? Surely PE can do better than Kimberley?
November 12th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
Its a diabolical decision by SANZAR and totally nepotistic. O’Neil is not the sort needed to grow the game. Union still places alot of importance on moral values, which is one of its greatest assets. Let that doos go back to roundball. Even better why did SARU not allow Watson snr to take on O’Neil, now that would have been far more intersting than this current debacle. Fools.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Geographically E. Cape is isolated and has to draw talent from rural development feeder systems. Their nearest infra structure base being Natal Sharks, hence the natural migration of players like Watson, Kanko, Daniels and some their other youngsters to naturally gravitate to playing for them straight out of school. The FS and JHB Educated kids first get exposed through Lions or Cheetah’s before being snapped up by richer unions. So whats so wrong with Spears and Sharks amalgamating instead of Sharks pinching players from Fs or Lions every year they can at least develop players from within their own legitimate feeder base then, like Kanko, Daniels, Watson and others. Unless they rather amalgamate with Cheetah’s who they raid every year also.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
#54 cab:
What tradition does the Lions franchise have? It’s only been going since 2006.
#55 stormer in a teacup:
Yes, but Griquas players were still available to play S14. In fact, according to Naka, there’ll be about 11 in next years Cheetahs squad. The only way that players in the EC region can do that is to move.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
#57 skopskiet:
The last time that EC and Border were part of the Coastal Sharks franchise, the KZN rugby union signed all of their best players. That’s why they pulled out.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
#53 David:
David, you are repeating yourself again I see
BTW what do you make of the Boland situation?
November 12th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
#58 David:
come on, that is a technicality, other than WP and NTVL, TVL/Gauteng/Lions/Joburg have a very long rugby history and are a very distint region, one of the most important in africa.
What is going to happen to Ellis Park? In the world, there are very few stadiums that have this almost mythical aura. The 95 RWC alone should have immortalised it … and now what … its going to become the home of roundball.
madness, SA have a product that is extremely marketable, foreign kids and fans grow up hearing about the mighty cauldron that is Ellis Park – wtf they going to build a stadium like that EP? There is only one ellis park.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Fact is 6 Sa franchises is too many. Our systems can’t sustain 5 strong teams let alone 6 even with all the naturally bred talent base available we still finish bottom of table every year in succession. Shows weakness of coaching or administrative abilities in our unions.
So I’m actually not sorry that Melbourne gets it, let the capitalists have their cake and gorge on it, choke on it for all I care, only problem is this game going exactly like soccer. Melbourne will be buying up all Sa kids that got big buck star gazing ambitions in their eyes, death of Union as a true champion of traditional and national development values, just like Man U, Arsenal, Real Madrid, and Chelsea, plenty more Vickermans, Rathbone on the horizon, the new advanced progressive professional rugby union here we come.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
#60 PissAnt:
Some people just don’t listen, the first time.
Boland is a bit of an enigma, but I like what’s happening in the region. With Rassie taking the Stormers DOR position, it allows him more scope to help build both unions for the good of the Stormers franchise.
#61 cab:
Ellis park would still get half the S15 home games, and all the GL CC ones.
The Lions franchise, as you know, isn’t just the GLRU region it also includes the North West Province (previously Western Transvaal) and Mpumalanga (Eastern Transvaal) who both have their own history and tradition.
November 12th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
No one touches the fckn Lions without my say-so. We clear?
November 12th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
#64 katman: no-one seems to watch them either.:smile:
November 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Have a good look at your current Sharks squad.
Skipper Badenhorst – Born – Oudtshoorn, School – Afrikaans Hoër, Pretoria – Started – Bulls, Falcons, Pumas
Nicolai Blignaut – Born and shooled in East London
Jacques Botes – Born in Nelspruit, played for Pumas
Craig Burden – born in Durban ***
Deon Carstens – born in Franschoek – schooled and played for Boland
Dale Chadwick – Durban ***
Pat Cillers – Pietermarritzburg ***
Keegan Daniel Born Humansdorp (EP) – Schooled in East London – Dale College
Jean Deysel – Free State – first played for Lions
Justin Downey – born and schooled in Jhb
Bismarck du Plessis – Free State
Jannie du Plessis – Free State
Allistair Hargreaves – Durban ***
Wiehahn Herbst – Klerksdorp – Leopards
Ryan Kankowski – Port Elizabeth, St Andrews College
Beast – Zimbabwe
Johann Muller – Mossel Bay, SWD, Oakdale College
Skollie Ndlovyu – Durban ***
Michael Rhodes – KZN, Michaelhouse ***
John Smit – Pietersburg, Pretoria Boys High
Steven Sykes – Middelburg (EP), Marlow Agricultural School, Cradock
Albert vd Berg – Hoopstad, Vryburg High, First played for Vaal Triangle and Griquas
Guy Cronje – Born in Jhb, Michaelhouse **
Ross Cronje – Born in Jhb, Michaelhouse **
Monty Dumond – Klerksdorp, Leopards
JM Hernandes – Argentinia
Adrian Jacobs – Cape Town and started with Falcons and Bulls
Chris Jordaan – Worcester and Paarl Gimnasium
Rory Kockott – East London, Selborne Colle, first played for Lions
Patrick Lambie – Durban, Michaelhouse ***
Charl Mcleod – Johannesburg, Wonderboom High
Waylon Murray – Durban ***
Lwazi Mvovu – Umtata, Border
Odwa Ndungane – Umtata, Border, Bulls
Len Olivier – Pretoria, Affies
Ruan Pienaar – Free State, Cheetahs
JP Pietersen – Cape Town
Andries Strauss – Pretoria, Grey College, Bloem
Riaan Swanepoel – Cradock, Northern Cape High (EP)
Stefan Terblanche – Mossel Bay, Swellendam High, first played for Boland
Luzuko Vulindlu – Grahamstown, Eastern Province
So, out of a squad of 41, only 10 of them were schooled in KZN and with only 8 of them born in KZN. Of these 10 only Craig Burden was in the 22 who played the Cheetahs in the semi-final. As a matter of fact, none of these 10 (besides Burden) are regular starters for the Sharks! Furthermore, take a look at how many of the other 31 players are from EP, Border, SWD and Free State.
It does prove that Skopskiet’s arguments and David’s statement @ 59 carry all the merit, doesn’t it? It is a fact that when the Eastern Cape was involved with the Coastal Sharks, all their talent was, and still is, stolen by the Sharks. Even more scary is your Academy. Go have a look at how many, or rather how few, of those boys are from KZN.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
“This is a vote for commonsense,” said ARU Managing Director and CEO John O’Neill.
“Equally we want to recognise that the bid put forward for the Southern Kings was a very good one and it took an even better bid for Melbourne to win out.
A better bid with no players, no support base, and they don’t even know yet who is even going to run the Melbourne franchise. How did rugby get to this?
November 12th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Wasn’t Ellis Park only build in the early 80’s or late 70’s?
November 12th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
#67 stormer in a teacup:
O’Neil is as much a politician as Malema dude – dont waste your breath on him.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
#64 katman:
nobody puts baywatch in the corner…
November 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
#70 gunther: You better believe that.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
#66 Alan Shore: Ha ha ha ha – Guy and Ross Cronje both born in Jhb. Would be interesting if one of them was born in another province. Seeing as they are twins mommy would have had to give birth on the Vaal River.
This is the professional era. If you do the same excercise with the other unions you will see a similar trend. The only question then is – “what percentage is acceptable”.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
#62 skopskiet:
I see you have managed to exclude Provinces woeful admin structures from all your ponderously driveling postings. The fact that Province still dont have an academy or development structure in place with all the schools and Varsities at their disposal is, quite frankly, embarassing.
I suppose you were too busy bashing the Sharks who came fom the B league to become one of the powerhouses of SA rugby.
And before you speak of their supposed raidings of other unions, lets remember that they broke free from the Currie Cup B division whilst still in the amateur phase and went on to win the Currie Cup for the first in the ‘90 without the abiltity to ‘buy’ players.
And your comparison of Premier league football to provincial and international rugby union is so unbelievable off target and without base, it makes my eyes water.
Honestly, I dont know how you put one foot in front of the other whilst remembering to breathe at the same time.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
#66 Alan Shore:
How about writing up a list like that for the Bulls and the Stormers players, and for the Lions and the Tahs for that matter.
My guess is that you will be very surprised at just how many players are not originally from the province they are now playing for.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
ag shame poor John Galt something close to the bone stuck in his throat. You want a proper Sharks bred side then breed it stop stealing talent from everywhere and calling it professionalism.
The fact that Wp administration is inept don’t for a minute detract from the fact that if it were left to natural processes and not this Bs money racket parading as pro sport then proper development at junior level and through youth 2nd tier feeder systems would encourage the broader population instead of killing it at source. You think I’m so enamoured with Wp admin who let all our youthful talent get scoffed by the likes of your racketeer franchise along with Bulls you can think again. But don’t go thinking your setup is so wonderful because you manage to lure talents from feeder teams like E. Cape and Fs using the carrot of professionalism when all it is is manipulative greed.
November 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
#71 katman:
I can here the sphincter loosening at saru as you speak….
November 12th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
#74 John Galt:
You know what John, I am not the type of person to put out arguments like the one @ 66 without being able to back it up with facts. I’ve done exactly that in looking at theother teams as well and you know, the shocking statistic is that even Province, definitely the Cheetahs and to a lesser extent the Bulls and the Lions are all between 40 and 70% own bred and grown players. The Sharks? 1 out of the matchday 22. If I’m not mistaken, that is 4.5%. I’m a bit busy now but I can give you the stats for each of these provinces a bit later.
It is also important that we keep to the topic at hand and that is that Border, EP and SWD are stripped of all their talent by the big unions, and yes, that include the Bulls, Cheetahs, Province and Lions ut none so much as the Sharks. And that is also a fact.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
But as always how come they aren’t trying to entre the currie cup prior to fighting for super rugby entry they dont have a leg to stand on yet as they are not competing locally yet
November 12th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
#38 PissAnt: PissAnt, sorry, been out. The GLRU owns Ellis Park outright (no other shareholder). A company was formed to manage Ellis Park, the athletics stadium and the old Standard Bank Arena for the respective owners. This company is called EPWOS and Orlando Pirates ownes the majority share (51%). EPWOS sells the use of the three venues to whomever wants to use it for whatever purposes and is then responsible for maintaining the three facilities. EPWOS must ensure that the venues are booked as much as possible as that’s their income stream. The shareholders then get a cut of the profit. This basically means that the Lions (CC and S14) must also pay to use Coke Park like anyone else (but as a shareholder they get some of that money back).
The GLRU can therefore sell EP or shares in it to raise funds. The Lions (CC and S14) can also play anywhere else (like Soccer City). Desperate times calls for desperate measures so nothings stops the GLRU from selling EP to raise cash and play at Soccer City. EPWOS will just keep on managing EP for the new owner and the Lions, as an EPWOS shareholder will still get an income from EP.
This is how I understand it.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
I find it extremely difficult to understand some of the contradictory arguments from some bloggers.
The S14/15 was intended to give our top 150 players experience at just below test level, and against the same quality players in NZ and Oz. It would provide the means to assess players and select them for the Boks. In other words it was designed to benefit our game at the top level.
We moaned about the new arrangement because of our hallowed Currie Cup, its’ traditions and importance to the provincial health of the game in SA.
However, when it comes to the S14/16 the same argument is made to keep it the domain of the major provincial unions, rather than the regional competition it was intended to be, that included players from ALL the unions organised on a regional basis.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
#77 Alan Shore:
Really Alan, when you are finished being so busy, take a look at the Bulls 15 from the currie cup this year. By my count, that’s 3 of the starting 15.
And i have absolutely no poroblem with it, the bulls have built up a formidable squad and they deserve every accolade they get.
As an aspiring rugby player, you want to gravitate to areas where your expertise will be most wanted and where you know your skills will be perfected.
Long live professionalism.
15. Kirchener: George
14 Hougaard: Paarl
11 Habana: Joburg
12 WO: Welkom
13 Pretorious: ?
10 Steyn: Cape Town
9 Fourie: Pretoria
8 Spies: pretoria
7 Potie: PE
6 Stegman: Craddock
5 Matfield: Pietersburg
4 Bakkies: Newcastle
3 Kruger: Bloem
2 Kuun: Joburg
1 Gurthro: Paarl
November 12th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
sorry, S14/15.
November 12th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
#36 PissAnt: EPWOS is an independant company seperate from the GLRU so it won’t be in the GLRU audit report. The GLRU owns shares (30% or something in that order) in EPWOS so there may be some indication of income generated from those shares (if EPWOS made a profit).
November 12th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
die k@k vir OP het gekom toe A Coetzee oorgevat het by Nelie Smith (as coach) …
al wat OP gaan help is geld, geld en geld. Cheeky is die enigste hoop, of miskien ‘n Louis Luyt …
Ook al hoop vir Kings om eerlik te wees.
Die jong talent, swart of wit sal nie vir OP/Grens/SWD wil speel as hulle gereeld verloor of in die B afdeling speel nie.
Kry eers ‘n span wat perform in die CC “A” afdeling … maak die Oos Kaap mense weer bewus van OP/Kings …kry supporters, kry die bemarking reg … maak GELD!!
Alan Solomons as dir van rugby en moontlike coach is ‘n stap in die regte rigting, ook DW Barry en paar opkomende sterre.
Kry ‘n paar van die Bulle, WP, Vrystaat se o’21’s en bou ‘n span.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
#81 John Galt:
John, nothing against professionalism. Maybe, also we should leave birthplaces out of the equation and look at where players finished their schooling and started their rugby careers. I was more concentrating on that.
However, my point still is that everybody is crying about the fact that EP, Border and SWD must first prove themselves at CC level. How can they if they are every year stripped of all their talent? But, let’s leave it at that. I am too stressed out about tomorrow’s game.
November 12th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
#83 Katsesnor:
Thanks mate makes a bit more sense now.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
to the likes of skoppie, alan shore et al, beating this tired drum about poaching youngsters from other provinces.
get off your high moral horses and rather compare the relative numbers of rugby-playing high school kids.
take a deep breath.
and say thank you to the professional management of the sharks franchise for having created something so successful and high profile out of very little.
November 12th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
I say let them play for places in the super14/15. Let the top 5 finishers in the currie cup play in the following years super14. If it was like that then griquas would be playing next year and not the lions.
November 12th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
#87 charo:
Charo, you simply do not want to go the route of statistics on registered rugby players in this Country.
The Southern and Eastern Cape will win hands-down in each and every poll.
S’trues Bob.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
I say stuff the fat cat so called professionalist business model franchise clubs, thats all they are, clubs parading as regional franchises. Get real. If its rugby at the root of the ambition and not money, if its truly unearthing youthful talent for the sake of youthful talent thats driving the cause for rugby’s sake and not for the clubs expanding their profit share, then somebody at the core of the exercise will push for the E. Cape development ahead of making these fat cat moghuls any richer than they already are at the expense of the talent not because of it.
Wtf these clubs importing Argentinian or French pivots for if their prime objective is to promote local talents, go spin me another capitalist Bs story, such blatant contradiction couldn’t be further hypocritical if they tried.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
They parade the youth academy models as all the do good development they putting into the sport then next they go and import another French or Argentinian cast off, or else half the Cheetah’s or Lions or EP budding potential player base. Meanwhile the real unearthed talent gets left languishing on the grass root slopes of the green hills of rural Transkei or in shanty towns and kraals tending sheep kaalvoet.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Clearly skopskiet is more upset than Cheeky……
November 12th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
#81 John Galt: Ms Rand would be awfully proud of you.
November 12th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Who’s upset, its these rugby fundi’s that bull sh’t themselves and the rest of gullible so called rugby fanatics that they acting in the interest of development of the sport. Bull sh’t yourself all you like you just ain’t fooling me.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
I am proud to say I am with Skopskiet on this one.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
#34 Katsesnor: So, what’s a “stadion” then?
November 12th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
#94 skopskiet:
It’s just lip service that is shown up by petty provincialism.
November 12th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
#95 Alan Shore: me too!!!
November 12th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
#96 TheTackler: Whatever you want it to be.
November 12th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
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