Cotton wool key to Bok backlash
16 Nov 2009
There’s nothing to be gained by starting an already exhausted Bok senior side against Saracens and Italy.
Peter de Villiers was clear about his goals when naming a 37-man squad to tour England, France, Italy and Ireland. Five wins from five matches was the target, and the Bok coach also hoped to develop some untried youngsters and work on strengthening the second-choice combinations.
South Africa suffered the worst possible start to the tour with the dirt-trackers going down to a depleted Leicester, and the Boks’ reserve front row returning home with injury. The senior side was outmuscled in Toulouse, and unless the Boks reassess their priorities, the tour could finish in disaster.
To salvage this tour, the Boks need to beat Ireland in Dublin. To beat the Irish, the incumbents will need to time to recuperate, and giving them the next week off could also aid De Villiers’ secondary ambition of developing the second-string.
It’s yet to be confirmed whether the team named to start against Saracens will be available for starting positions in the Italy Test. One hopes this is the case, because the Boks’ best could do with a break, especially after the beating they took at Stade Municipal.
Wian du Preez, Adriaan Strauss and CJ van der Linde are picked to front Saracens, a powerful Free State combination that should provide the South Africans with stability at scrum time.
The smart move is to start these three against Italy, a side renowned for their scrum. The Boks would have a shot at parity despite the absence of Beast Mtawarira, Bismarck du Plessis and John Smit, while the frontline players would be spared a physical tussle a week before the game that really matters.
Ireland’s scrum was poor against Australia on Sunday, an encouraging sign for a Bok team that’s endured their own problems in this facet. Nevertheless, you’d want your best players available for this clash, and you’d want them firing at something close to 100%.
Again, the Boks are well capable of beating this Irish outfit, but after Friday’s French lesson, they will know that intensity is everything. It’s the last game at the end of a taxing year, but they’ll need to be at their brutish best.
The most recent selection suggests De Villiers and company are taking the Saracens match seriously, but they need to keep their eyes on the prize. The Six Nations Champs have been hyping the 28 November fixture as the ultimate north versus south clash, and those British & Irish Lions players who tasted defeat earlier in the year will be desperate for revenge.
It won’t help the senior Boks’ cause to arrive in Dublin after what should be a physical battle in Udine. With respect to Italy, this is a Test where the fringe players should get a start. Start Danie Rossouw and Andries Bekker in a Test environment, and see what loose forwards Jean Deysel and Dewald Potgieter have to offer when awarded an official Test cap.
For Du Preez and Strauss, it’s a massive challenge scrumming against a team that includes Martin Castrogiovanni, but they’ll have one of the world’s best and most experienced tightheads alongside them. In an ideal rugby world, that’s how you’re supposed to blood newcomers – by surrounding them with experience.
So let’s hope the announcement of the side to face Saracens isn’t a case of the Bok management hitting the panic button. Let’s hope the first team aren’t rolled out in Udine, because it won’t contribute to success in Dublin.
The Irish press believe De Villiers’ job will be on the line by the time the Boks arrive. There’s no chance of the South African coach being sacked after the Boks’ success in the Lions series and Tri-Nations. But the Irish are correct in assuming South Africa’s tour would amount to a failure if they’re downed at Croke Park.
By Jon Cardinelli, in London
359 Comments
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 » Show All
16 Nov 2009, 13:52 pm
Some people need to get over the childish notion that JS (being the legend he is) and other senior playes as well, are not open to critism.
If they are not on form , or if they are playing out of possition this forum allows people to voice those opinions, I don’t care if JS is the greatest captain and the finest gentleman around, that is secondary, if he is not currently delivering then it should be highlighted and discussed without all the freekin sensitivity !!!
Leave our Captain, don’t touch our legend etc etc……….well all of us agree with these sentiments but a pity a few cannot see past this idolisation in order for them to question themeselves honestly !!!
16 Nov 2009, 13:52 pm
#196 grant10: It seems NZ scrumming also under-fire. The 2 best teams in the world, whining about the scrums. maybe someone should listen?
16 Nov 2009, 13:53 pm
We simply lacked proper execution against a very fired up French side.
Rugby is a game where 80 minutes of full committment is needed and we did not show that.
If we are looking to fix things simply ask why this is.
16 Nov 2009, 13:54 pm
#198 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): can we have an adult chat today?
Go see my posts Sat morning. Smit and Brussow were the only Boks worthy of the name on Fri nite.
I clearly would like Smit at 2….he adds stability to the front row from there….and the way he played he would, on merit , deserve to leap frog Bissy.
Clearly you believe the Bok front row as is is okay.
So lets just leave this tired debate now….we will see who is right or wrong…perhaps a lot sooner than you think.
16 Nov 2009, 13:55 pm
#157 Oubaas2009:
Somebody with some sense.
Blame him if he plays badly, not just for the sake of it.Up until Friday night he could not tackle to save his life according to some. Then he had a very good game defensively. Now they have to find something else to blame him for, like running away from his support runners.
The support runners must make sure that they keep up with the ball carier, was how I always understood the game to be played. I guess in Adi’s case everything got switched around as long as he is the villain in the story after all being said and done.
16 Nov 2009, 13:56 pm
#196 grant10: I watched the game 3 times on the weekend – believe me the penalty count at scrum time is scary ! 3 penalties in the second half in front of the polls !
16 Nov 2009, 13:57 pm
#205 nama1:
Adi is the least of our concerns.
16 Nov 2009, 13:57 pm
#201 justrugby: We have had a fantastic year and to make sweeping changes at this stage would be stupid. However legendary Schalk should be booted so far from that test side its a joke. Kanko too. The other veterans need rest. Play Kanko against Italy and Danie against Ireland.
16 Nov 2009, 13:58 pm
#202 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Italy absolutely moered the Kiwis sat…i watched and literally have never seen a All Black team [ given a 2 nd string that is ] get so moered!
It is a SH issue….Argies and Aussies are fine …but Boks and Kiwis in disarray.
Mallet is a stickler for the getting it right at the set phases…damn i was proud of what he achieved with that Italian pack.
16 Nov 2009, 14:00 pm
#206 stew: It is a disaster….but it will be fixed…Gold and PDV will make some calls there….i am sure of it.
16 Nov 2009, 14:00 pm
#209 grant10:
And its interesting that Arg and Aus does not have the same play-load on their players as SA and NZ
16 Nov 2009, 14:03 pm
Kanko is now the villain of the peace….Adi and the halfbacks being fingered….Schalk as well….
I consider that very unfair….
Its damn hard when the tight 5 is being smashed…..
That tight 5 were destroyed…VM and B Botha as well….
Thats always been my point….when the scrum …and on Fri the lineouts too…get pressurised the cancer spreads….and often the blame gets deflected….
16 Nov 2009, 14:03 pm
#188 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): John Smit aparently says in his book that at kamp Staaldraad they spread their *** cheeks looking for contraband and at the end says that if he had the chance to do it again, he would. WTF!
Is John Smit ***?
Obviously JS is looking for a nice retirement nest egg and needed a controversial book to out sell Joost’s crack cocaine, whoring book.
He is getting killed at scrum time, and knows the end is near. What better timing to sell out a player he captained and make a buck. No rocket science there.
Next year part II will come out, a tell all on Schalk maybe. Then, he’ll pick on someone else he captained for more cash.
Soul selling is an addictive business.
16 Nov 2009, 14:04 pm
#206 stew: How many ruck penalties did France give away? To me a penalty count of 14 to 5 seems a bit one sided for a game that was in the balance for most of it. Even if you take out the 3 scrum penalties 11 – 5.
#204 grant10: But when on form Bissie and possibly Tiaan outplay Smit. And this is where you’re little koo starts. At 3 JS is the best option in SA when everybody is on form. How long would it take for you to start shouting for PdV to drop JS from hooker? 1 season, a couple of bad games? Lets just trust in a side that has played so well this season. I believe fatigue is the real reason.
16 Nov 2009, 14:04 pm
#207 PissAnt:
Then people like Hondo should stop putting him down and concentrate on the real problems we have.
16 Nov 2009, 14:05 pm
#208 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
Schalk still got plenty to offer the Boks, as for Kanko, in the right conditions I also think he has still got something to offer. He has not taken his opportunities therefore will need a big game in his next outing, if he gets a shot against Italy he will need the game of his life.
He is not a bad player ,he seems to lack confidence and a bit of the intimidating/imposing factor.
For his sake i hope the sharks pack next year allow him front foot ball as this when he comes into his own.
Schalk will always be on my teamsheet, I am biased though !!
16 Nov 2009, 14:09 pm
#216 justrugby:
I want to see any loosie shine when his tight 5 is being shafted…
Brussow had reasonable success only on defense and that is mainly thanks to his pace around the park.
16 Nov 2009, 14:09 pm
#205 nama1:
That first line should read: Finally, someone that agrees with me.
Nothing against you, but people’s list of ‘guys who talk sense’ mostly consist of those who are in agreement with them.
#213 rossoneri:
Rubbish, look at our recent matches. The other side of the scrum is the liabilty.
16 Nov 2009, 14:10 pm
#216 justrugby: #212 grant10: Lets be honest,
Schalk played with injury and he should’nt have played.
If your T5 struggle why the is your number 8 standing on the wing ??
Ad lost to many balls trying to run crash ball at 12.
16 Nov 2009, 14:10 pm
#211 PissAnt: Fatigue certainly has a massive role in these performances…without doubt at all.
16 Nov 2009, 14:12 pm
#219 capebull:
Agree ……..games won and lost with a competitve T5
16 Nov 2009, 14:12 pm
#216 justrugby: So what you are saying is play Kanko against the minno’s and he will shine. Just keep him away from the physical stuff. Why do the Sharks want to buy Alberts if Kanko is so great ?
16 Nov 2009, 14:12 pm
Where is Keo’s column or did Ras put him off also? Or is he maybe Ras? There was some kind of resemblance.
16 Nov 2009, 14:13 pm
#217 PissAnt:
Agreed. As in every sphere of life, most things can be judged by how it performs under strain.
16 Nov 2009, 14:15 pm
#212 grant10: Come on Grant, don’t look at things in isolation. Kanko lost the ball so much in contact it was an embarrassment. Had nothing to do with set pieces as he often lost the ball from phase play or broken play. Schalk got bounced 3 time and did nothing at all, he also lost the ball a plenty. Brussow had a great game fetching behind an out-muscled pack. Hard to do. Yes we struggled at the set-pieces but our ‘rested’ loose forwards were terrible.
16 Nov 2009, 14:16 pm
#222 capebull:
Kanko has shown in the S14 what a good player he can be, it could be that he is one of those players that battle to make the step up !!
16 Nov 2009, 14:16 pm
#218 Die_Valk:
Thanks for the lesson,Mr Falcon. Will try to remember it.
16 Nov 2009, 14:17 pm
#212 grant10:
“Kanko is now the villain of the peace…”
well if you disturb the peace… you are a villain…
Thing is we’ve got to bring in a system where the Boks are rested and play fewer games during the domestic season… Resting the Boks for Tests is daft and illogical…
It’s like electing a government minister… paying him his salary… and telling him not to come to parliament…
16 Nov 2009, 14:17 pm
Schalk is klaar oo much pumishment to that physique already and a mind that is not bullet proof even if he thinks it is, I would call it off if I’m Schalk he’s liable to really hurt himself one day if he’s not careful
Kanko never been a tight playing 8, fine in S14 or CC where its all open and flash but not in tests never.
Best T5 for the moment is the one I put up earlier
Du Preez / Blaauw
Liebenberg
Nel / Buys / Smit
Bakkie
Victor non negotiable for now though Bekker had a better game Friday than either of them
Loose trio
Brussow
Deysel / Potgieter
Vermeulen / Alberts
FDP and M.Steyn only good in a kicking duel, very limited as a go forward option. You want to know where the cancer in the back line is, look no further than there.
16 Nov 2009, 14:18 pm
#214 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Then Smit from bench….we cannot carry anyone….simple.
Currently though i believe Beast and Bissy are kaput moeg…and would play them from bench.
16 Nov 2009, 14:18 pm
Back later !!
16 Nov 2009, 14:19 pm
#226 justrugby: Now we agree , Kanko is a good player at S14 level, sometimes spectacular , but not a test player.
Ruan seem to have the same problem
16 Nov 2009, 14:19 pm
#227 nama1:
The very fact that there wasn’t any swearing/insults in your comment already says a lot.
And I do agree with most of your views.
16 Nov 2009, 14:20 pm
#216 justrugby: In that case, heed your own advice: “Some people need to get over the childish notion” that SB “(being the legend he is) and other senior playes as well, are not open to critism.”
Schalk has done nothing to warrant his selection for the boks for 18-24 months. The best game he had was when he made that monster hit on FdP, well one tackle doesn’t make a bok.
16 Nov 2009, 14:22 pm
#225 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): agree….Brussow and Smitty the only standouts.
16 Nov 2009, 14:24 pm
Crying over spilt milk is not going to change much. The question is, what happens if the so-called “A”-frontrow (in some peoples eyes) get drilled tomorrow? Where does that leave us with Saturdays test in mind?
16 Nov 2009, 14:25 pm
Dont know if you guys watch Italy vs New Zealand this weekend. Right at the end of the game, they packed down for 12 scrums in a row. NZ got so many penalties, a yellow card was dished out at them and the ref should have awarded a penalty tri.
The NZ pack was under huge pressure, props not binding under immens pressue, drifting, front row poping up and and and…
Bottom line – Italy had them in all knotted up.
I understand that the the first line of boks need a rest but if we lose to Italy come Saturday because we fielded a second string Scrum, we will be at our lowest point in a long, long time.
16 Nov 2009, 14:26 pm
#217 PissAnt: Brussow was nothing short of brilliant.
#229 skopskiet: “FDP and M.Steyn only good in a kicking duel, very limited as a go forward option. You want to know where the cancer in the back line is, look no further than there.” Wow, I think I’ll have to stop reading your posts.
16 Nov 2009, 14:28 pm
Best side they would have used this tour one more time
Du Preez
Liebenberg
Nel
Botha
Matfield
Brussow
Deysel
Vermeulen
Pretorius/Hougaard
Pienaar/M.Steyn
Habana
De Jongh
Jacobs
Fourie (wing)
Viljoen
Bench
Blaauw / Vd Merwe
Bismarck
Smit
Bekker
Alberts / Potgieter
FdP
Kirchner
16 Nov 2009, 14:28 pm
#228 ufo: LOL…yes…i said when these guys went into the CC that the EOYT was going to be a bridge too far.
Just hope we restore pride over last 3 matches
16 Nov 2009, 14:28 pm
#236 nama1: #234 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
Not that you said the same thing but I reckon the response covers both comments to a certain extent.
Good players do not suddenly become poor or average.
We need to ask why guys now don’t show the intensity they did in the B&I lions matches and for most of the 3N?
Bismarck did not suddenly forgot how to throw into line-outs, nor did Beast suddenly forget how to scrum and Schalk forget how to tackle…
These players have the skills to klap the best in the world, we need to figure out why that drive and lack of execution is missing currently.
16 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
#214 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Look it did seem on many occassion that the French were way offside at the breakdown but they got away with it – but giving away scrum penalties in front of the poles is not just wrong – it is heartbreaking for any team
16 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
#234 Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): no arguments with me about Schalk either….he has been on borrowed time for 2 years.
16 Nov 2009, 14:30 pm
Saracens side to play against the Boks have been posted on another thread.
Saracens – 15 Michael Horak, 14 Noah Cato, 13 Kameli Ratuvou, 12 Brad Barritt, 11 Michael Tagicakibau, 10 Derick Hougaard, 9 Neil de Kock, 8 Ernst Joubert, 7 Justin Melck, 6 Wikus van Heerden (c), 5 Hugh Vyvyan, 4 Mouritz Botha, 3 Richard Skuse, 2 Ethienne Reynecke, 1 Rhys Gill.
Subs: 16 Schalk Brits, 17 Carlos Nieto, 18 George Kruis, 19 Andy Saull, 20 Kevin Barrett, 21 Alex Goode, 22 Rodd Penney.
As you can see there are 10 SA’s in the side.
16 Nov 2009, 14:31 pm
I said it before, we have gone into this EOYT with the aim of winning the battles but unfortunately at the price of ultimately losing the war.
16 Nov 2009, 14:32 pm
Read my posts – don’t read them, if you want a go forward back line momentum, forget FdP and M.Steyn, one track ponies, boot to ball, first option, think about it, think again, maybe run if nothing else on. Slow and second phase thinking, far too flat footed behind the scrum, nothing on, always playing catch up or skop en trek rugby, front foot attack, a none entity in their minds eye.
Get Pienaar up to speed or play Grant or get JLP up to scratch, but M.Steyn is a tee kicking machine, Naas Botha would be very proud. FDP another fly half at scrum half, 2 kicking fly halves behind the scrum then WTF you expect, back line cancer thats about it.
16 Nov 2009, 14:33 pm
#236 nama1: Ah, good point and my thoughts too. We will see tomorrow night.
The consequences of changing Smit to 3 to get bismaak in has come at a price as there was no “B” plan if it never worked. I thought Smit played well on Friday but why are we the only nation in the world that plays our players out of position????
I know that we won everything with this combination but something is very wrong with the dynamics of the front row.
16 Nov 2009, 14:34 pm
#236 nama1: Deep in the kak!
16 Nov 2009, 14:34 pm
#237 Fidget: Yep the Ities can scrum , they have the prop from Leciester so they should know how he plays ….. But if they lose against Italy , this will be a low point of a fantastic season ….. A bridge too far ?
16 Nov 2009, 14:34 pm
#235 grant10: #237 Fidget: The cancer in world rugby at the moment is the scrum. Nobody knows whats going on. If you watched Wales vs Aus, the Welsh commentators said it (early on), NZ say it, SA say it. By the sounds of things the Irish are also less than happy. The British Lions said it. Its clear there is a problem, but the IRB does squat. The only games there seem to be no problems is when SA plays NZ. Now is this the battle of the 2 softy scrums or as Bissie says is this because they both respect the hit and spend less time cheating?
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 » Show All
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.