Pining for a platform
22 Nov 2009
South Africa’s dangerous outside backs will never reach their potential unless the problems up front are rectified.
Breakdown blues and a set-piece savaging. South Africa’s shortcomings in these departments were evident in the Leicester match, but only became a real concern when a physical capitulation contributed to defeat against France. A substandard performance against Saracens resulted in another loss, and a lacklustre showing in Udine raised more questions than answers.
Where do the Boks stand as they approach the most important fixture of their European tour?
The usual excuses of fatigue and injuries will be rolled out, but it’s no secret the Test against Italy was supposed to be a dress rehearsal for the big show in Dublin. Going by what we’ve seen in the past four tour matches, can the Boks outmuscle Ireland?
Fatigue and injuries aside, South Africa certainly have the potential. The real question is whether the coaching staff will opt for a pack suited to northern hemisphere conditions; a pack capable of providing a platform for the outside backs to shine.
Fourie du Preez showed his class behind a retreating pack on Saturday, but Morne Steyn, still in his first year of Test rugby, battles under that kind of pressure. It also doesn’t help to receive back-foot ball and shovel it on to a player who struggles to breach the gain line.
Adi Jacobs is not a crash ball player, and often surrenders possession once he’s stopped short of the advantage line. It’s a shame that Jaque Fourie and Bryan Habana don’t receive more opportunities. As they showed on Saturday, their finishing ability is world class. One way or another, JP Pietersen also needs to get more involved.
Jacobs is the wrong man to wear the No 12 jersey, but his plight and that of Steyn is partially a result of the pack’s failure to front. The Boks’ protection of the ball at the breakdown has been poor on this tour, as the opposition have committed more men to the rucks and thus prevented South Africa getting clean ball. The Boks have won some terrific turnovers through the sticky-fingered Heinrich Brussow, but they’ve conceded an unacceptable amount of turnovers of their own.
The static display at the breakdown has limited the Bok momentum that was so prominent in the Tri-Nations. The scrum wobbles of the Sanzar tournament have been amplified in European conditions, where there are more scrums than down south.
John Smit has asked that he be judged after two years in the tighthead position. Saturday showed why this is a luxury South Africa cannot afford on the heavier grounds up north. Wian du Preez, Adriaan Strauss and Smit were a distant second to their Italian counterparts, and it’s little surprise that the new combination in the second stanza achieved parity.
Beast Mtawarira is an important player for the Boks as he boasts a tremendous work-rate. In a front row alongside Smit (at hooker) and BJ Botha, he also managed to get one over Martin Castrogiovanni.
The Italians were always going to run out of puff in the final quarter and unfortunately they doesn’t possess much quality in reserve. But the performance of the Bok front row in the dying stages must have been encouraging, and the best thing about a front row that includes Mtawarira, Smit and Botha is the balance. They’re a better scrumming unit and offer good ball-carrying options.
The Bulls didn’t have the strongest scrum in the Super 14 and neither did the Boks in the Tri-Nations. The difference up north is you need a steady scrum if you’re going to gain ground. It also pays to remember that Ireland’s defence will be far sharper than that of the Italians, who fell off many a runner in the wider channels.
If Peter de Villiers does opt for a stronger scrummaging pack, he needs to pick a No 8 capable of exploiting a set-piece advantage. Danie Rossouw did the job for the Boks at the 2007 World Cup, and there’s little doubt he’d do the job in Dublin. For all of Ryan Kankowski’s talents, ball-carrying in the closer channels isn’t one of them.
The availability of Schalk Burger and Bismarck du Plessis will be made public at Monday’s press conference. If Burger is fit, he should start at blindside flank with Rossouw switching to No 8. At hooker, it’s not really much of a choice with Smit an irreplaceable leader, and since Du Plessis is returning from injury, he would be better utilised from the bench.
By Jon Cardinelli
148 Comments
22 Nov 2009, 05:54 am
“Beast Mtawarira is an important player for the Boks as he boasts a tremendous work-rate”
Something which one-eyed bloggers with agendas like Hondo don’t seem to notice…well we saw what the old re-united sharks front row produced….thats got to be the 1,2 and 3 we build on
Smit really needs to get the 2 jersey back and bismarck simply has to wait his turn or convert to utility loose-forward…he’s not THAT indispensible
22 Nov 2009, 05:55 am
You need forward DOMINANCE, not forward PARITY.
22 Nov 2009, 06:02 am
Parity comes before dominance, and this front row has potential to dominate considering they’ve scrummed together before and DOMINATED in the super 14
22 Nov 2009, 06:03 am
Ponder those words: “a retreating pack”.
And it’s only the tiny minnow 6N cellar-dweller Italy you’re up against as “world champions” …
“A retreating pack”???
Sis, man!
22 Nov 2009, 06:11 am
retreating pack against the best tighthead prop in the world with a 32-10 win…not a bad margin compared to a scrappy 20-6 win from the auraless blacks
22 Nov 2009, 06:20 am
ja bring jdv as centre i was watching him on rugbydump. com he is class
22 Nov 2009, 06:21 am
No one should be indispensable….no one owns the Bok jersey.
Smit must simply never wear a 3 jersey again….that was brutually exposed ad nauseum yesterday….again and again…..so i say it again……J Smit must NEVER play tighthead again!
Wiaan du preez must not he harsgly judged either….i am sure he would have relished the opportunity to play next to Smit at 2 and BJ at 3….
Good to see that a dropping resulted in a far more focussed and commiteed Beast running on to the field.
Not sure what the answer is with Adi at 12…..i was hopelessly wrong…..i thought he would relish the 12 spot…..he hasnt.
Soda, you were right, i owe you a cold one….
22 Nov 2009, 06:28 am
End of year tours should be used to give up-and-coming Springboks big match experience. Only the leaders in the First XV should go on these tours, to provide a backbone for the newbies.
22 Nov 2009, 06:29 am
Then we’d be creating platforms for the future of Springbok rugby
22 Nov 2009, 06:31 am
End of year tours could perform the function of mid-week games from the tours of old. Clarity would be created in the selection process.
22 Nov 2009, 06:46 am
#5 flanka: Still.. retreating against EIGHT men from Italy..
When the mighty Os du Rand was in the Bok front row, nobody ever retreated from him. All he ever did was staunchly keep up his end of the bargain. Same with other front-row legends like Tiny Neethling or Hempies du Toit or Mof Myburgh or … you name them.
Retreating?
Never.
22 Nov 2009, 07:20 am
when smit player hooker our srcum was never this poor he is not a prop full stop
22 Nov 2009, 07:22 am
#12 klippies101: I agree.
22 Nov 2009, 07:23 am
But will PDV make the changes needed. Or will he believe himself? Bod will have so much fun against adi
22 Nov 2009, 07:35 am
ja adi is creative i feel he has scored alot in the past but ja he cant defend and bod is strong and will run right at him
22 Nov 2009, 07:36 am
Could somebody, Ryan included, please explain the difference between the NH conditions and New Zealands. This generalised SH harder ground fallacy has been perpetuated for so long that it’s quoted as fact.
22 Nov 2009, 07:53 am
We were again put to the sword at scrum time, when will snor stand up to the plate and drop bismark to the bench.we will get that stigma of having a kak scrum, just like the Aussies had, and we know how long that takes to get rid of
22 Nov 2009, 07:55 am
The question that burns my lips is this – is it John Smit that is such a poor prop or is it Bismark that is such a poor scrummager? I will never forget the Tri-Nations a few years ago when JS was still playing hooker – the scrum was seriously solid – he got injured and all of a sudden our scrum got klapped!! I am not a front rower or a forward for that matter but a very good listener to anyone with a view about everything rugby…. what I do hear being touted often is that shortish tightheads (Tom Smith, BJ Botha) can be devastating props against bigger opposition simply because it is easier to get underneath them. This can also be assisted with a big solid scrummaging hooker!! Beast Smit and BJ looked very solid and comfortable as a unit!!! In my view over the last year everytime our front row pops all I see is Bismarks head popping first??? He is a fantastic extra loosie but is it worth compromising our scrum for that? I reckon Smit should hook and Bissie should bench until Smitty is ready to step down – at the moment Smitty is still playing awesome rugby – anyone who does not see that is not watching the game through impartial specs!!
22 Nov 2009, 08:03 am
#18 BMM: i agree 100%
22 Nov 2009, 08:24 am
#18 BMM: well said!
22 Nov 2009, 08:28 am
Hookers really don’t have to hook much, these days. The ball gets fed in almost behind their feet. In the modern scrum, the hooker is now merely a scrummager.
22 Nov 2009, 08:38 am
#18 BMM: I would caution SA against choosing a better scrum over having the best players on the field. Beast, Smit and BDP have been terrific this year around the field and have played a huge part in the Boks most successful season. All three are integral to the effort and you risk losing something by benching one of them and gain not a lot by just having parity at scrum time. If you’re winning, then messing with the formula might not be the brightest move. Good for the coaches to have options and depth tho.
22 Nov 2009, 08:47 am
#22 Big Hit: we’d only be losing BDP to the bench and gaining botha who is just as fantastic in the loose….hardly call it a big change in comparison to the massive difference at scrum time
22 Nov 2009, 08:52 am
#23 flanka: BDP is the best hooker in the world this year, phenomenal in the loose and brilliant at turnovers for a hooker. BJ not on that level in the loose but he does solidify the scrum. Depends what compromise you want, perhaps something the coaches will look at game by game.
22 Nov 2009, 09:08 am
I agree that John should not play at no.3 again, but saying that Beast got one over Castro, alongside John and BJ are unfair towards Castro. He was playing 70min of rugby when those two came on. If Beast came on from the start and then won Castro it would have been fair.
22 Nov 2009, 09:13 am
Is this BJ Botha the same guy who spent about 60 minutes with his arse up in the air when we played the AB`s in Durban a few years ago? He was absolutely murdered in the scrum. This is all I can remember of him. Hope he has improved.
22 Nov 2009, 09:23 am
#25 battlebok: Castro was replaced at halftime and only got back when BJ etc came onto the field. He had at least 15 minutes of rest after the break: it could even be longer. He definitely did not play 70 minutes!#24 Big Hit: Bismarck is a great hooker, but after that rib injury before the semi-finals of the Currie Cup he wasn’t the same. If you have played hooker before, you’ll know that a rib injury is terrible once you start scrumming. If he is not 100% put him on the bench ( at best ) or put Strauss on the bench with JS at 2
22 Nov 2009, 09:24 am
#22 Big Hit: absolute **** GH….really this is tripe….we cannot play with a retreating scrum….
Seriously expected more from you….that is absolute rubbish.
22 Nov 2009, 09:36 am
#28 grant10: did you just call me Graham Henry? or was that GH meant to be a BH
it’s never been truly retreating save for a couple of times in the second half against Oz when the game was won and once against France.
Test rugby is about winning and losing, if you believe the trade off is worth it fair enough. Personally I don’t ever think BJ can match the performance around the field of the any of the three incumbent front row players.
Mind you when I saw our scrum get beaten yesterday (far worse than the Boks have this year) I sympathised with your point of view, but then we weren’t winning whereas your team generally is when you complain about the scrum.
Don’t get mad tho g10, it’s just rugby discussion bud
22 Nov 2009, 09:40 am
15: Morne, 14: JP, 13: J.Fourie, 12: Meisie, 11: Habanero, 10: Pienaar, 9: FdP, 8: Bismark, 7: Schalk, 6: Brussow, 5: Vic, 4: Bakkies, 3: BJ, 2: Smit, 1: Beast. Res: Nokwe, Adi, Kanko, Deysel, Bekker, CJ, Wian
22 Nov 2009, 09:49 am
#29 Big Hit: I dont want out tighthead running around making a 100 tackles, etc….i want him to be the rock in the scrums….let the bloody loosehead and hooker do the flash….
That has been our problem….3 x flashy and no bloody scrummers!!
Give me BJ or Cj ant day of the week….i see Smit at 3 again i cant watch…its just too damn pathetic and painful.
22 Nov 2009, 09:50 am
#29 Big Hit: GH…sorry…BH
22 Nov 2009, 09:58 am
#25 battlebok: castro had been on the bench for quite some time and only came back on when we had bj, smit and beast….like everyone else has been doing this year he was simply taking advantage of smitty’s vulnerability at 3….once we had (what i believe to be) our best front row he was anonymous and could only try rattle beast with off the ball nonsense
22 Nov 2009, 10:05 am
I liked the look of that front row that finished the test. Deysel played well too.
22 Nov 2009, 10:06 am
Surely there must be no more detractors of Spies’s prfromnces at 8 any more? Not so much for the scrum, but the value he adds to the collisions is ENORMOUS!! We dont go backwards when he is there.
Honestly Kanko looks like he is in over his head. Yes he runs fast against a 2nd tire nation like Italy, but was honeslty nowhee against a decent backline- and nowhere in the tightin either game. And his technique is awful- he loses SOOO much ball in contact.
22 Nov 2009, 10:13 am
I think the most disconcerting thing for anybody to see, is to see your front row pop. What a difference with js, beast & bj! All the mobility around the field.(Bissy).is not
Worth moving.js from 2 where.he belongs.
22 Nov 2009, 10:14 am
#22 Big Hit:
#29 Big Hit:
I tend to agree with you BH, tho as a Saffa I cant tell you how good it was to finally see our boys gain parity and then dominate in those last few scrums . . . the whole team got a big boost, just what we all needed.
It’s going to be very interesting to see which players PdV goes with next week (and in what positions).
22 Nov 2009, 10:17 am
#34 Kietzphat: Ja me too. Enough of teh Smitty experiment- he can share 2 with Bissie to manage him until the next RWC.
And Adi is just not good enough. AWFUL GAME FOR HIM. His passing and distribution have also gone down.
22 Nov 2009, 10:25 am
I really can’t call this one…
Our scrum and breakdown play was embarrasing in the ozzies game but we dominated them in the lineout.
These clealry won’t apply against you guys with perhaps the breakdown the only area which will stay the same. We don’t have a fetcher…..
Battles I’m looking forward to:
BOD vrs Fourie
Healy vrs Smith
Kearney vrs DU Preez and Morne…….
22 Nov 2009, 10:30 am
Proteas 27/1 after 5 overs.
#39 Just Another Paddy: Going to be a great game. Really looking forward to it.
Now we need to start with WO and not Adi and the front row of Beast, John and BJ. Deysel to start at 7 and Danie to 8.
We looking much better with those players.
What I would have done for JdV and Frans Steyn to be playing against Ireland too.
22 Nov 2009, 10:31 am
Nice article Jon,
Essentially, I have been banging on about the same issues as what you are saying.
First and foremost – you play horses for courses.
In the NH, the game is slightly slower and you need big forwards playing together as big forwards. The game is wet under foot and the breakdown is the biggest battle.
Because of this, you need a front row that are all playing in the correct positions, and they need to be specialists. I have been crying at length about my dissatisfaction that JS was moved to 3 to accomodate Bissy. Its ludicrous. Bissy has lost his hunger since the JS move, and his efforts were much better coming off the bench.
Combinations are also important. Every scrum we have had this tour that has been battling has seen the wrong players together. Simple.
Loose forwards for NH rugby is the same. We cannot start 1 x tight player and 2 x loose players like we did against France.
Brussouw hits every ruck and maul and fights for the ball, however, Burger and Kanko think they are centres. We need balance there too. Even the Wallabies get this right. Your loosies can only play loose when the game allows them to do so, and that only happens once the forwards are going forward.
In SH rugby (S14, Tri Nations etc etc) the game is faster and the breakdown contests are not as fierce, or as long as in the North, hence our rucking and mauling seems okay. Thats why guys like Kanko shine there too as the ball is flowing more, and he is more prominent.
Now to the backs, if you pick a kicking flyhalf (which Steyn is), then how can you pick a talented/creative runner (which Adi is) to play alongside him? Morne takes the ball 10/15m behind the advantage line. By this stage, the opposition loosies are up on him and the opposition defense has go forward. If he took the ball flat, that would essentially make the opposition loosies have to retreat backwards before making the tackle. This would put more pressure on the opposition backline, which will result in space. The space which a guys like Adi will run into and start to produce the ball carrying that got him into the side in the first place. Adi is not a poor player, he is also easily good enough to be a Bok (think of his performances last year when we played Harlem Globetrotter rugby), however, he is a victim of a poor selection policy which sees him trying to play a game he is uncomfortable with and not suited to. If you persist with Steyn at 10, you need a crash ball centre who will take the ball forward with 3 defenders on him.
However, what was painfully obvious, was that we have great outside backs who are desperate to see what the ball looks like. The 2 tries in the first half did not come from the half backs of the Boks, but rather from counterattack, and turnover… luckily Steyn did not touch the ball, as he would have kicked it away. (This seemed to be the first half strategy)
Horses for courses… In the North, our team should be: (only considering who is on tour currently, taking into account foreign player selection stance as well)
1) BEAST
RUSSOUW
2) SMIT
3) BOTHA
4) BOTHA
5) MATFIELD
6) BRUSSOUW
7) DEYSEL
9) FDP
10) STEYN
11) HABANA
12) OLIVIER
13) FOURIE
14) PIETERSON
15) KIRCHNER
For SH games, I would pick:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 11, 13, 14, 15 all remain.
Spies / Burger
7) Smith
10) Pienaar
12) De Villiers
I would stop the ban on oversees selection. My bench would include:
WDP
BISSY
BEKKER (as a no 5 lock replacement only – Russouw can cover 4)
SPIES/BURGER/BRUSSOUW/SMITH will always start with 1 of them on the bench
FIND A SCRUMMIE
22 Nov 2009, 10:40 am
Proteas 38/2 after 8 overs. We in a bit of trouble now.
Sorry guys no cricket thread here. So just posting this bit of crici news here.
22 Nov 2009, 10:46 am
#42 Puma: TRying to be relevant??? BTW your man Frans Steyn is playing out of position (12) at Racing… seems like he is being accomodated there too
22 Nov 2009, 10:50 am
If the team has a problem with the loosies then how about Ashley Johnson and/or Luke Watson… The best in world being ignored because of politics???… If there is a probelm at 10.. the form player is Earl Rose…Politics?? Pressure from the political right??
22 Nov 2009, 10:52 am
#30 ikantspel: if we have learnt anything from John Smit`s endeavours at tight head is that we must not play players out of postion ,this is not school boy rugby …Bismarc to bench or to compete with J.S at hooker, any one suggesting he plays as a loose forward has his head in the clouds
22 Nov 2009, 10:52 am
If Frans Steyn was playing at inside centre against Ireland we would have no worries at all in that channel. With Adi EISH, we going to be in trouble with BOD will own it there.
We have WO and he can play there so why can PdV not see we have a problem there? Otherwise mabe he has a ace up his sleeve and calls Fransie. Also can take the goalkicking if Morne is off form. Then they are playing with different balls up north to what we play in the SH.
22 Nov 2009, 10:55 am
Fransie can play inside centre (12) and FB 15 and he will own both those positions. None of them are out of position for him.
Maybe some don’t know their rugby too well here hey!!
22 Nov 2009, 10:56 am
Wynand olivier has proven himself to be useless against quality opposition… All this talk of him replacing Adi is dumb. Th problem is that Adi is playing between two trojans who grew up undermining black people… its simple, they wont play with him.. Replace JF with Juan De Jongh and Morne with Rose and you will have the most dynamic backline in the history of SA rugby… thats if FDP agrees to be part of that backline.. He will probably opt out.
22 Nov 2009, 10:57 am
#45 bolandboy: amen !!
22 Nov 2009, 10:59 am
#48 Langenhoven: LOL….
I am sure a lot of that is tongue in cheek?
How you my man….see man u and Chelsea widening the gap??
22 Nov 2009, 11:00 am
#47 Puma: I know a lot more than those restrained by prejudice… I will always be ahead of them.. ..
Waiting for you to start patronising me
22 Nov 2009, 11:00 am
#48 Langenhoven: Personally never been a fan of WO…a bit 1 dimensional for my liking…Adi has not seemed to enjoy the channel though…..without JDV that cupboard is a bit bare.
Puma has a point with F Steyn there though..
22 Nov 2009, 11:02 am
#48 Langenhoven: omg …
22 Nov 2009, 11:03 am
JP Duminy looks so classy….all the time in the world to play his shots…..rate this young oke.
22 Nov 2009, 11:05 am
#52 grant10: I thought WO has been great,cant ask more for a 12 ,big strong and I think, despite popular belief his distribution is far superior to Jacobs ,imo Jacobs is a great 13 ,he proved that for the sharks against gwk
22 Nov 2009, 11:06 am
#47 Puma: Puma….i hope you now accept the fact that Smit is not and never will be the answer at 3 ??
22 Nov 2009, 11:07 am
#50 grant10: I was watching the game (Arsenal) this morning… we were all over them.. It was like the Aussies against Scotland… We had 90% of the game…one of those things… We always believe that we can play without our Russian Maestro…Asharvin. BTW no tongue in cheek.. I can see where the problem is in the team… Its not Talent mate… its attitude… and too many players believe they have a right to be there because rugby is for white people.
22 Nov 2009, 11:08 am
#55 bolandboy: WO certainly improved and had a fine super 14….
Certainly without JDV he seems to be the best bet replacement…..Juan De jongh is a 13 and needs a super 14 under his belt….as does WP Nel and a few other up and coming players…
I would play WO against Ireland.
22 Nov 2009, 11:11 am
#52 grant10: FRans Steyn is not doing to well in France mate.. THat is in relation to the Hype… The Sharks did not think he was good enough at FB as well as Racing…. Two unrelated entities came to the same conclusion..
22 Nov 2009, 11:14 am
#57 Langenhoven: The call for Earl at 10 is an interesting one…..and something i would like to see a lot more of….that Earl should of been in that match 22 is a fact…he was the best back on tour imo….
Juan is a very natural 13…..with Morgan Newman at 12 i look forward to seeing how they both develop in the super 14….
I honestly believe….perhaps naively….that the color issues are fast becoming a thing of the past boet….perhaps i am a bit naive…but was at a pub with loads of fans yesterday and really it is about the rugby….race dont seem to come into it…and it was a very ‘mixed’ pub…..
Consensus was around smit to 2 as opposed to any race talk….i think SA is moving forward rapidly….especially the youth.
22 Nov 2009, 11:15 am
#55 bolandboy: Despite popular belief… you meant despite Reality??… and BTW big and strong is BS.. Hayes Vs Valuev… Aplon vs Matfield.. De Jongh’s try against Sarries as well as his overall ability to drive forward while carrying two or three forwards??
22 Nov 2009, 11:17 am
#58 grant10: There is no substitue for experience…I am probably Jean Deysel`s biggest fan ,saying that ,the game against Saracencs he was second in terms of prformance of loosies that night ,a notch behind wikus ,my point is WP Nel needs some more time to hone his talent
22 Nov 2009, 11:18 am
#59 Langenhoven: fact of the matter is F Steyn moved to France as he wanted to be ‘closer to the actionat 10 or 12′…..
He reckons he is too young to be a 15 so far away from the action. This in an interview on arrival in France.
Personally i would have no hesitation in playing him at 12, especially in the NH where the slower conditions suits the bigger basher at 12….and that boot!!!
Kirchner acquitted himself well….he can push hard to make the jersey his own…
22 Nov 2009, 11:20 am
#62 bolandboy: agree….Deysel was very good yesterday…PDV gonna have a lot to think about when selecting his team
I heard CJ …Schalk and Bissy also fit…
Qusetion mark over FDP though…hand injury.
22 Nov 2009, 11:22 am
#60 grant10: Race will never be something of the past… I only blog here to expose it.. Its easy to cloud these issues with facades of non-racialism.. We need to look at the choices that people make vigorously interrogate them to understand the underlying reasoning…
Gonna have a chat with my Mom quickly …wil be back
22 Nov 2009, 11:22 am
duminy dropped on 23 by Strauss…luv it!
22 Nov 2009, 11:23 am
#65 Langenhoven: cheers boet
22 Nov 2009, 11:25 am
#46 Puma: I see one who knows stuff all about rugby and a few other things as well.
22 Nov 2009, 11:29 am
#61 Langenhoven: okay,guess we going to have to keep watching to see which player is better at 12 ,my money is on Olivier
22 Nov 2009, 11:32 am
Proteas 87/2 after 20 overs. Amla and JP doing fine but will have to up the run rate.
Wonder why Bosman is not in this odi side? He was sensational in the Pro/20 game the other night.
22 Nov 2009, 11:32 am
Another Adi jibe… Big suprise! Quick, put Francois Hougaard in the Test team. It will be over-looked! And lets blame all Morne’s kak on the ball…
22 Nov 2009, 11:32 am
I still reckon J Smit will go to lions as a hooker with D Muir…..
As a pay off for the Ludick and Alberts debacle….
Watch this space.
22 Nov 2009, 11:34 am
btw ,whilst holidaying in Durbs I played touch rugby with a friend and there was a Sharks player there who is moving to the Golden Lions who looks promising …3rd choice scrummy after 2 weeks ,alex de **** ,remember the name
22 Nov 2009, 11:36 am
#73 bolandboy: will watch out for him
22 Nov 2009, 11:38 am
I think PdV needs to start rethinking his overseas policy. We need JdV back, there is no replacement for him. And BJ proved his worth yesterday. We need a specialist tighthead.
Another point, we need to start thinking about a replacement for John.
22 Nov 2009, 11:39 am
#75 Hier kom die bokke: Luke Watson?
Dewalt Potgieter?
V Matfield?
Juan Smith?
22 Nov 2009, 11:39 am
#56 grant10: Grant I never said he was our answer to TH but he had to be in the team. If it was there then it had to be. I had said move Smit back to Hooker or did you forget? We need our captain and you were calling for him to be dropped or just retire.
No mate he has to be in that team. For me anyhow think he is a better hooker than Bissie. When John throws in. I just relax. He scrums better than Bissie too at hooker. Bisie to the bench.
Now hope you can see we need Smitty too as our captain.
100/2 we going at a snails pace here. Need to pick up the run rate Amala and JP.
22 Nov 2009, 11:41 am
#72 grant10: He wont leave the Sharks Grant. Watch this space hehehehe. Plum should make John captain next year too. We had 3 captains in the Sharks this year. Crazy.
John has a magnificent home there. He is not just about to give that up just yet.
22 Nov 2009, 11:42 am
#78 Puma: i am hearing rumours Puma…
22 Nov 2009, 11:43 am
111/3 after 22 overs. Those two just went far, far tooooooooooooo slow. JP out.
Normally at centurion it is great for batting maybe after the rain up there that pitch playing different. Need to pick the pace up a bit. We lose another wicket we will be in a bit of trouble there.
22 Nov 2009, 11:47 am
#69 bolandboy: THere is recent history that we can look at.. WO has been been given every opportunity to succeed… and has flopped.. Adi has been good enough to brilliant in all the chances that he has been given… THat is the difference… You have too many misconceived notions of superiority mate…
22 Nov 2009, 11:47 am
#79 grant10: Grant…….hahahahahahahahaha. I almost choked on my coffee now……….hehehehe. You looking in your crystal ball again
You hear these rumours or breaking news..hehe. 
Grant I live in the same place as Muir mate. I wont say more. So lets leave it at that… But I am laughing. Is it that friend of yours that has the contacts
22 Nov 2009, 11:53 am
Til later mates
22 Nov 2009, 11:55 am
129/3 after 26 overs.
22 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
#80 Puma:
Their partnership was 73 runs in 14.5 over at 4.92 runs per over.JP went out with a strike rate of 87 and Amla’s strike rate is 81. This after two wickets fell early on!
You call that SLOW?
22 Nov 2009, 11:57 am
#76 grant10
I don’t rate Victor as captain – he loses focus when he captains the Boks.
Dewald might be an option, but I just think Deysel is better at 7.
Juan is a definite option, but I don’t know how many years he has left.
What do you think of Brussow as captain?
22 Nov 2009, 12:09 pm
135/4 after 29 overs. Hope we don’t start to lose more wickets now.
Would like to have had Bosman playing here today.
#85 nama1: Just look what we done in the Pro/20 240 after 20 overs. We now 135/ after 29 overs.
I know odi and Pro/20 are two different games but we could have gone much quicker than that. If we lose anymore wickets we going to be in big trouble. Not enough on the board at the moment.
22 Nov 2009, 12:13 pm
#86 Hier kom die bokke:
I don’t rate VM as Bok captain either. Good provincial captain maybe but not the right man for the Bok team. Juan Smith gets too emotional and is known to have a go at his team-mates if they mess up. I actually doubt whether he will reach the same heights as before after his enforced lay-off. His body took a lot of punishment the last few years and it may now count against him when he returns. But I guess we’ll have to wait and see.
HB can be an interesting choice. Cheetahs can do him a favour in naming him captain when Juan is not available so that he can hone his leadership abilities.
22 Nov 2009, 12:14 pm
#86 Hier kom die bokke: I think Brussow must be left to do what he does best….not sure if he has captained before?
Would be a great choice but i have no idea about his leadership skills….
I think Dewalt being groomed though…
22 Nov 2009, 12:20 pm
Brussow is the only young player in the Bok squad that I see being there for a long time. That’s my reason behind suggesting him. I think he should be given a chance at the Cheetahs, let’s see how he does there.
With Dewald as captain I see another situation where the best player in the position might sit on the bench because of the captain. I believe in picking a team based on merit, and picking a captain from that. Maybe that’s naive, but look at the problems we have now because of our captain.
Another wicket. Now we’re in trouble.
22 Nov 2009, 12:21 pm
#87 Puma:
135 after 29 overs equates to around 260/270 if we don’t lose too many wickets in the next ten overs. Peterson is going great at the moment and should bat through the innings. If he can do that we may end up closer to 300. Very much a winning score I would say.
That 20/20 score was a once in a life time innings. Much like the 438 game. Don’t use it as a yardstick.
22 Nov 2009, 12:27 pm
157/5 after 33 overs. We lose anymore wickets that will be us done. Just to little on the board at the moment. Now the batsmen coming in under pressure. To slow from the top order.
22 Nov 2009, 12:28 pm
Morkel has about 17 overs to do his thing. Let’s see if he makes use of this opportunity to bat longer. If he can’t come of with the bat against Eng, his place in the team should be in jeopardy because he does not do much with the ball in hand either.
22 Nov 2009, 12:29 pm
#91 nama1: Yes Nama, But we are losing too many wickets. When they came into bat we had already lost 2 wickets. Needed to keep their wickets or pick up the run rate.
Now we in trouble with 157/5 after 33 overs. If we lose another wicket we may not get to bat our full overs.
22 Nov 2009, 12:30 pm
#91 nama1: Why was Bosman not selected for the odi game? Pro/20 – odi there is a difference but huge. Bosman would be wonderful in the odi game.
22 Nov 2009, 12:31 pm
#95 Puma: Sorry meant not huge.
22 Nov 2009, 12:33 pm
Like Skinstad said yesterday,
Something is very wrong with the scrums these days
Almost every week and every game one scrum smashes the other
How are these mismatches possible in test rugby?
I can’t remember this ever happening before
The players found a way to cheat and the refs are clueless
22 Nov 2009, 12:34 pm
#90 Hier kom die bokke: From what I have read here Brussow coming to the Sharks after the S14. Could be a rumour so have no idea just read it here. If it is true, he then needs to captain during the S14. Not sure if he will. Juan will be back by then.
22 Nov 2009, 12:35 pm
#97 The_Green_Machine_is_a_Mean_Machine: Refs are clueless I think.
22 Nov 2009, 12:37 pm
#89 grant10: Potties is a really good captain. Has leadership all written all over him. Think he will captain Boks after 2011.
22 Nov 2009, 12:38 pm
#92 Puma:
Stop it now Puma. Scoring at around 4,5 runs/over after 33 overs is about par for a fifty over match. Already trying to put blame on JP and Amla, are you?
22 Nov 2009, 12:40 pm
#101 nama1:Nama, No not trying to put blame on them. JP one of my favourite players. Just think they went a bit slow there.
Would you have had Bosman in the team? I would have. Wonder why they left him out.
22 Nov 2009, 12:42 pm
#101 nama1: We just need to not lose anymore wickets and we will land up with a decentt score. They have some great batsmen in their side. Centurion is known for some big scores. With all the rain they had up there maybe it is playing a bit slow there. Have no idea. Will see when they come out to bat.
22 Nov 2009, 12:42 pm
typo sorry, meant decent.
22 Nov 2009, 12:46 pm
176/6 after 38 overs.
We may not bat out all our overs. Really can not lose any more wickets now.
22 Nov 2009, 12:47 pm
Morkel also gone. They should have a rethink about his position in the team when Kallis is back.
22 Nov 2009, 12:52 pm
#102 Puma:
After his batting in the 20/20 match, I would definitely have him in the squad at least. Like Gibbs, I think he still lacks consistency.
My reference to JP and Amla was just tongue in cheek.
Boucher needs to show why people always call him a “fighter”. If he goes early I don’t think we’ll bat out all our overs.
22 Nov 2009, 12:57 pm
184/6 after 41 overs.
22 Nov 2009, 12:59 pm
#107 nama1: I like Bosman and think he needs a chance in the odi game. Proved it the other night. Was wonderful to watch him play.
Bouch needs to fight here otherwise we may not see out our overs.
Think somehow that pitch playing a bit slow. Will have to see how they do when they come in a bit later.
22 Nov 2009, 13:03 pm
I this is a reasonably balanced piece with the key bit being:
“The Bulls didn’t have the strongest scrum in the Super 14 and neither did the Boks in the Tri-Nations. The difference up north…”
However some other things
- The key is still the collisions and breakdown, but as mentioned we are not as intense or competitive here and have not protected our ball well, as was the hallmark during the rest of the year – this is probably due to the fact they are dead on their feet.
- The NH probably calls for s different pack both in terms of personnel (more rested players) and strategy (preference given to tighter more powerful less mobile players).
- The other reason the Bok backs are not lookinh good is that their fantastic halfback pairing of FdP and Steyn need to vary their play more, almost everthing is a kick, and its gifting possession awey in totally differenty BH conditions. Its also wrong with teh pace we have outwide, on attackj they need to learn to shift the thing quickly and to test the oppo defensively and to run at them, with the occasional kick not the other way around. Also they need to dart and attack the afv line more often – morne’s up and unders are now overdone-
22 Nov 2009, 13:12 pm
205/7 after 44 overs.
22 Nov 2009, 13:13 pm
#110 cab:
I hear you,but remember Tri Nations.
Henry , Deans and Australasia moaning about the kick and chase tactic upon our arrival in Aus for the first away game.
We go over to Perth and smash the Aussies with a running game scoring the only bonus point of the competition for 4 tries. I would look at different gameplans for Northern Hemisphere , you make a valid point…
In my opinion the Springboks should send a Development “b” team to Europe in end of year tours. The European sides mostly send us B Teams in June , why don’t we start doing the same.
22 Nov 2009, 13:13 pm
in the 2nd minute of the game Parisse bonces Jaque Fourie like a pest! Wow…
22 Nov 2009, 13:14 pm
As great as FdP is, is he becoming a bit precious, i mean we are calling out for his powerful surging bursts and we hardly see them any more, and when he does get tackled – there s a whole rollabout everytime whuch would make an italian roundballer proud.
Come on FdP, you can develop your game a bit, get tehir quicker and shift it when necessary – he has a great pass too.
22 Nov 2009, 13:17 pm
#112 wp_boytjie:
yes exactly, perth was great cos we showed we can play the other game, and indeed PdV has brought the offload game to teh boks and it was used in the first hald versus saracens but then back to up&unders in 2nd- i think its a very bad tactic for NH conditions, rather run it, we actually have an incredibly dangerous backline, with pace and power off both wings.
22 Nov 2009, 13:20 pm
#109 Puma:
With Kallis out for the series they may call on Bosman for the last two matches. I think this squad was selected for the first three. However, I’m not 100% sure.
v/d Merwe should now just close his eyes and swing like he did when he made his début last year.
22 Nov 2009, 13:21 pm
what makes adams so good, is he tracks the ball-carrier and pack so well, and picks its up so neatly and distributes at pacer – in short he keeps the momentum going. FdP can develop develop his game in this respect, he has the pass for it but is arriving too late, kicking too much, and not darting enough – 9n short, he looks tired too and said so befire the tour which does not bode well.
22 Nov 2009, 13:26 pm
225/8 after 47 overs. Need to come out and bowl really well to win this one.
22 Nov 2009, 13:26 pm
#112 wp_boytjie:
I think the midweek team was that development B-team that you ask for. You saw what went on here when they lost both there matches. People just don’t want the Boks to lose.
22 Nov 2009, 13:27 pm
#116 nama1: If Kallis is out they have to call in Bosman for the next game. I am hoping. He is a superb batsman.
22 Nov 2009, 13:30 pm
#117 cab: Adams in injured now Cab, Not sure how serious that injury is.
22 Nov 2009, 13:30 pm
#118 Puma:
Do you have any idea what the average score at Centurion Park is after 50 overs?
22 Nov 2009, 13:33 pm
#121 Puma:
FdP stil the best, but adams def adds some zip and a different dimension, francois hougaardt also looked very sharp when coming on yesterday.
22 Nov 2009, 13:33 pm
Careful cab you’ll have the Fdp groupie entourage on your back in no time with such comments, how dare you disdain to criticize the greatest player in the universe.
I reckon if we had perhaps had Pienaar and Adams up against France last week we might have stood a better chance against them than with Fdp and Morne. But then again it would be simply blasphemous to even consider to be thinking like this.
22 Nov 2009, 13:36 pm
#120 Puma:
Kallis is out for the entire one day series with a fractured rib. He may even miss the first test or play just as a batsman. I think it will be between Gibbs and Bosman.
22 Nov 2009, 13:36 pm
242/9 after 49 overs. Steyn goes out. At least we may see out our overs. Then hope we bowl really well. May still win this one.
22 Nov 2009, 13:37 pm
I was really worried about the Boks game… if they lost it really would have killed the party
22 Nov 2009, 13:37 pm
#125 nama1: Pity about Kallis but I think they need to give Bosman a chance now. If he can produce the same performance he did the other night. Bowlers will hate to bowl to him….
What a Batting performance that was. Hope he gets a chance.
22 Nov 2009, 13:42 pm
250/9 after 50 overs.
10 runs short of my minimum prediction. This is very much defendable with our bowling attack. Need to get rid of Trott and KP quickly.
22 Nov 2009, 13:45 pm
#129 nama1: Yes we may still win this one. Just need to come out now and bowl well. Need to get KP and Trott quick.
Going now to get some lunch back later nama.
22 Nov 2009, 13:46 pm
#129 nama1: We may be 10 or 15 runs short. I am hoping not.
Back later.
22 Nov 2009, 13:49 pm
Amla must learn to converts his fifties into hundreds in the one day game. It is his umpteenth fifty now. He is suppose to bat through the innings.
22 Nov 2009, 13:50 pm
48. Langenhoven
You are kidding are you not?.Rose is not a fifteen man player
and should go to sevens rugby.The problem with Adi is that
he is simply outmuscled by the bigger centres especially
with slow ball from static play.
The spectators, and that includes all of us, were advocating
a faster flowing, more spectacular game, with lost of running,
big hits, and plenty of tries, because the game became too
boring for our liking.
So scrums became just starting points and loose forwards
auxiliary backs, with locks intermingled.Nobody wanted to do
the hard yards upfront anymore.
This type of game is suited to the hard, fast grounds of the
Southern Hemisphere, but the Boks have always battled even in NZ to perform as well on softer, more soggy grounds.
So it came as no surprise to me that our forwards struggle
given the composition of forwards on the softer and heavier
NH grounds.
The compositions of our front row was badly exposed and it is
a blessing in disguise because the next WC will be played
on similar grounds.
I think that because the World Cup is in NZ the NH teams
must fancy their chances of pulling of an upset.
I think with a year of preparation still ahead PDV should
now start looking for earnest good solid front rowers
and a loose forward trio able to scrum before linking
up with the backs.
In my opinion a call back to basics might well to prove
a timely call if the Boks want to defend their
crown.
22 Nov 2009, 13:54 pm
Bye Puma. Enjoy your lunch. Already finished mine.
22 Nov 2009, 13:56 pm
#122 nama1: Not sure Nama but think 270 is the norm there. Especially if the weather is good.
So hoping our bowlers come out and fire straight away.
Now busy having lunch mate. Back as soon as the crici starts.
22 Nov 2009, 13:57 pm
#134 nama1: Catch up with you when the crici starts nama. Having lunch late just wanted to watch our batsman finish their overs.
22 Nov 2009, 14:33 pm
#124 skopskiet:
lol, i dont think its blasphemous, but it needs to be tempered with the very real recognition of just how good FdP is. But yes, i think u are right, insofar as keeping momentum and getting the backline shifting, which is what this article is about, FdP could def learn a thing or two from adams. was watching marshall the other night, and he’s got old, but both he and adams stick like glue to that tacklepoint and out it goes.
22 Nov 2009, 14:47 pm
Trott actually has good bowling figures.
Seems as if it was harder to score against the older ball. Steyn and Langes must keep the Englishmen in check in the first 12 overs of their innings and not allow them to get away with a flyer.
22 Nov 2009, 14:53 pm
Strauss out. Caught AB bowled Langes.
28/1 after 8 overs.
22 Nov 2009, 15:06 pm
#137 cab: young will genia for australia could also show fdp a thing or 2 about quick line delivery
22 Nov 2009, 15:25 pm
Missed the first 15 overs. Been out. See England are 56/2 after 16 overs. Nice we have two of their big batsmen out.
22 Nov 2009, 15:26 pm
#138 nama1: Nama maybe Trott used to our conditions here. He is from Cape Town now playing for England.
22 Nov 2009, 15:32 pm
#142 Puma:
Yeah, I know. didn’t know that they use him as a part time bowler though.
His brother, Kenny Jackson, played for WP and later captained Boland. I liked his positive approach to batting. He and Gibbs made their debut for WP in the same season.
22 Nov 2009, 15:49 pm
#143 nama1: They have too many of our saffas in that team
Strauss too born in Joburg but he left young about 6 years old. So that does not count much.
We need another wicket soon to put pressure on them.
22 Nov 2009, 16:05 pm
Almost got a wicket there. Need to take Trott or Collingwood both very good batsmen. Think we could be 20 runs short here and the sun out and think it is better for batting now. We batted when there was a lot of cloud about there this morning.
22 Nov 2009, 16:29 pm
Think England will win this one. Just not getting the wickets here.
22 Nov 2009, 20:55 pm
Jeez, I have never read such kak in my whole life! The Boks have not shown class the whole year & have relied on the forwards all year. The backs have contributed 15% in all our winning matches all year, the only exception being defence.
This is first time the backs have done what they should have been able to do. When the forwards are getting a pasting, it should be for the backs to win the match at times. This is the first time the backs have won a game for us. They were nowhere in France.
It is only when the backs do well that we start expecting so much from them. JC now all of a sudden blames it all on the forwards when they have won almost all the matches single handedly (collectively as an
all year long.
23 Nov 2009, 04:36 am
112. wp_boytjie:
In my opinion the Springboks should send a Development “b” team to Europe in end of year tours. The European sides mostly send us B Teams in June , why don’t we start doing the same.
Agreed.
Adi has had his time. Short term , I think they should slot Pienaar in the centres. He has kicking but his reading the game and distribution would be ideal.
Smittie is no prop!
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