De Villiers best bet at 12
26 Nov 2009
Adi Jacobs’ ankle injury could be the good fortune the Springbok backline so desperately need.
The Boks beat the British & Irish Lions 2-1, but the series was not without error. Peter de Villiers came under fire for his suspect use of the Bok bench, and the biggest criticism centred around the subbing of backline kingpin Jean de Villiers.
Instead of swapping one outside centre for another, the Bok coach shifted Jacobs to No 12 and introduced Jaque Fourie at No 13. Jacobs was targeted with the Lions midfield pairing of Jamie Roberts and Brian O’Driscoll attacking his channel. Because Jacobs was driven back so often, the men on his outside, including Fourie, were placed on the back foot. The pressure the Lions exerted on Jacobs enabled the visitors to cut the line out wide.
Peter de Villiers had plans to persist with this combination in the Tri-Nations given Jean de Villiers was set to join Irish club Munster. Jacobs suffered an injury in the build up to the first match against the All Blacks in Bloemfontein, and fortunately, the Jean and Jaque midfield combination was restored. It’s one of the reasons the Bok defence was so impressive during this tournament, as the opponents battled to make substantial ground in De Villiers’ channel.
Since the Stormers centre’s departure, however, the Bok coaching staff has revisited the Jacobs/Fourie midfield combination. Jacobs battled against a French barrage in Toulouse and was part of an awful mix-up that led to an Italian try in Udine.
Before their final fixture against Ireland, the Boks have caught a break. Jacobs is out of the tour with an ankle injury, allowing De Villiers to resume his position.
There will be eyebrows raised if De Villiers is named to start given he hasn’t featured for the Boks since the final Tri-Nations match. But it’s a set-up he understands well, and his experience would be a boost for such a big clash.
You have to feel for Wynand Olivier, who should have been the logical alternative to De Villiers all along. He enjoyed a dream run in the Bulls’ Super 14 campaign playing alongside the halfback pair that have since traded powder blue shirts for those coloured green and gold. As an individual, Olivier was impressive, but as part of that No 9, 10 and 12 triumvirate, he was outstanding.
Olivier lacks the kicking game required of the modern No 12, but it’s his only shortcoming. He showed against Saracens what he’s capable of defensively (Derick Hougaard bears the bruises as testament), and is the ideal kind of player for the Boks’ game plan – which is not unlike the Bulls’ strategy.
Olivier partnered Fourie in the third Test against the Lions. The Test was a disaster in many aspects, but it’s disappointing that this midfield combination wasn’t given more opportunity to develop. Even now with Jacobs out, De Villiers returns, and the big loser is Olivier.
The Irish enjoy a fast-paced game and all first-phase ball would have been directed down Jacobs’ channel with the robust Jamie Heaslip sure to lead the charge. Why? Because they know they’re guaranteed to make ground. Jacobs may affect a tackle, but he’s failed if the opposition gain five to 10 metres in the process.
With De Villiers replacing the injured Jacobs, the Irish will be forced to rethink their tactics. The Boks stand an excellent chance of repelling an Irish surge if De Villiers and Fourie are standing in the centres.
Stopping power is what’s required. The Boks need to slow the Irish down this Saturday; they have to cut down the hosts’ space. A big defensive effort is what will earn a win and render this tour a relative success. In realising that goal, Peter de Villiers needs to pick players that are up to the task.
Olivier has the ability, but if you have Jean De Villiers available, you have to play him. He knows the Irish players well having played against them in the Lions series and at club level for Munster.
It may seem crazy to pluck a player from the international wilderness just two days before kickoff, but given what De Villiers has achieved alongside the incumbent backline players in 2009, you wouldn’t expect them to lack synergy at Croke Park.
By Jon Cardinelli, in Dublin
300 Comments
26 Nov 2009, 05:59 am
Draak
26 Nov 2009, 06:25 am
The news just keeps getting better and better. Might as well bring Frans Steyn BACK.
26 Nov 2009, 06:26 am
What do you mean international wilderness? The guy just played his last game for the Boks just more than a month ago.
26 Nov 2009, 06:41 am
Frans Steyn next and Bobs your aunt
26 Nov 2009, 06:44 am
Good morning bloggers. Yip – good news this.
Need Frans as well – to kick the living daylights out of the paddys..
26 Nov 2009, 06:51 am
I wonder if this means the end of PDV’s selection policy of SA players based overseas.
If anything, this end of the year tour has proven that SA does not have enough depth to stock the English and French clubs + fielding two world beating Springbok teams!
26 Nov 2009, 06:51 am
jamie roberts made mince meat of all our centres, not one was exempt.
If one looks at the conrad smith’s try in bloemfontein it was through this so-called rock solid centre partneship. If you look at adam ashley-cooper’s try in brisbane it was through this gaping centre combination, and there are plenty other examples yet south africans swallow this tripe about jdv/mossie whole.
26 Nov 2009, 06:56 am
Silly suggestion, why not keep the ban on overseas players policy for home internationals and the Tri-Nations and allow their selection during Northern Hemisphere tours and in cases of emergency? It keeps the foreign Boks in the loop, allows the selection staff to see where they’re at and gives the locally based players a break after 9 or so internationals and a gruelling Super 14. I’d like to select all overseas Boks if given the choice, but it does set a precedent. Either that or make a statement that you’ll only select an overseas player if they’re already an established Springbok?
26 Nov 2009, 06:57 am
@Pearl Rose:
There is no fullproof combination. At least no one runs over JF and JDV like they do over Adi.
26 Nov 2009, 06:59 am
@Pearl Rose: JDV at 12 and Adi at 13 a lot better than Adi at 12 and JF at 13 as well….
In fact F Steyn at 12 in this game would not have been a bad idea either….that 12 channel gonna be very physical.
26 Nov 2009, 06:59 am
WO.will be at 12 starting.
26 Nov 2009, 07:01 am
@SimiJan:
Sounds like a reasonable suggestion and therefore will not work. I think if you can come up with a more eccentric and complicated similar suggestion, PDV will more likely go for it!
26 Nov 2009, 07:02 am
@grant10:
I hope so, he deserves it.
26 Nov 2009, 07:09 am
Jacobs is a very good no 13, but J Fourie is the best we have, so now we move Jacobs to no 12 because of the old PDV favourite effect. At 13 Jacobs can handle the one man traffic and is sometimes suited for it because of his pace and quick feet. But at 12 he becomes a target for every runner in the team and that includes abrasive big loosies or inside centres who can run straight down his throught. Jacobs is not a bad defender (does not miss takles) but is not a good defender at 12.
26 Nov 2009, 07:16 am
Morning gents. I dont post often, but i visit this site numerous times a day. We all know Jacobs weak points, but on many occasions ive seen Jdv and Mossie get brushed off in attempting a tackle. The way these so called journalist pick on Adi one would think he did something really bad to them. I just hate seeing these okes tear apart Jacobs everyday. I do know though that on current form Adi shouldnt be anywhere near the bok team…it doesnt mean he should get murdered everyday on this site.
Anyway, hoping the boks give the irish a hiding.
26 Nov 2009, 07:18 am
It’s amazing how many of PDV’s selection blunders this year have been rectified by injuries or suspensions.
Adi Jacobs has been injured at almost every crucial stage this year, Schalk’s injury/suspension saw Heinrich Brussow get enough game time to cement his spot. Our entire dirt-tracker front row got sent packing after the first game which resulted in the obvious choices coming in as they should have right from the start.
I reckon PDV could drop the entire team, select midgets in their places and somehow by the time the big game came along, all the right people would be in the right places. Freaky stuff!
26 Nov 2009, 07:22 am
@ossewa: as early as the fourth minute in the Italian Test Jaque Fourie was on his arse after being swatted like a fly by Parisse.
26 Nov 2009, 07:24 am
@SKW: agree with you
26 Nov 2009, 07:26 am
@WestAussieBok: what part of experimenting is obscure to your brain and thus your understanding?
26 Nov 2009, 07:29 am
How many times did 17 year old Manu Tuilagi of Leicester run over WO all journos remember is one hit on Liefling, Please!
26 Nov 2009, 07:35 am
@SKW: the jon cardinelli’s of this world are still pissed off that adi had an outstanding year last year when all & sundry has rubbished pdv’s selection. He ended up being the top try-scorer last year & was 2nd to jdv in the SA Player of the Year awards. Now if you look @ jdv’s form this season it is nowhere near last years but he doesn’t get all these vile write ups about him. It is what it is man.
26 Nov 2009, 07:36 am
It would have been great to see Adi on the bench as an impact sub. I think thats the role he is best suited to @ international level. WO deserves a start, but id start with Jdv in this MUST win match. Whens the team being anounced?
26 Nov 2009, 07:36 am
Yes yes YES!!
Great news! Great day to be a Bok supporter…
Tough luck Adi… Good luck Jean…
Kudos to PdViva for beling bold enough to make the right call…
26 Nov 2009, 07:36 am
Jean is a suspect defender. Olivier is the best defender we have in SA. In fact, i recall the Lions centres embarrassing De Villiers a few times on defense.
26 Nov 2009, 07:40 am
****, I hope O’Driscoll doesn’t break him as we need him at Munster.
26 Nov 2009, 07:40 am
Shows you how much Jon Cardinelli knows about the Bok players.
Adi has played inside centre since he represented SA at Under 19 level and guess who was his partner at 13?? JEAN DE VILLIERS
Anyway, there is no doubt that Adi is off form at the moment but the way people react one would swear de Villiers is going to beat the Irish on his own.
He IS our first choice 12 and has been since 2005 when he did so well against the Aussies at Ellis Park.
Jon, next time please check your facts before making an *** of yourself.
Yes, Adi has played at 13 for the Boks in most of his tests but he is actually an inside centre and always has been… even going back to his days at the Falcons when the late Ettiene Botha played next to him at 13.
26 Nov 2009, 07:47 am
@wpw: This count for a lot of rugby supporters as well, wonder what the excuse would if the Boks fail on day, seeing that Adi Jacobs are not playing to play…Altitude ???
26 Nov 2009, 07:49 am
They would probably like to blame the Bok front row troubles on Adi if they could. Lol
26 Nov 2009, 07:52 am
@SKW: You from SK-Walmers ?
26 Nov 2009, 07:53 am
@Pearl Rose: The experiment has been done my friend. In case you were sleeping, it failed horribly. Adi is no 12. Time to move on.
26 Nov 2009, 07:53 am
Massive day for SA Rugby landscape today,absolutely massive. When that Bok team is announced it is a watershed time for a few Boks….the ramifications will be felt ,especially in Shark land.
1. Will PDV revert Smit to 2? What then Bissy at both Bok and Shark level?
2. Will Schalk retain the 7 jersey, or has Deysel done enough to push Schalk back in the pecking order?
3 If Cj is fit, will he come back in as 3 if the Smit move done….? Or does PDV keep faith with his second call up BJ BOtha…
4 Will JDV leapfrog WO into the starting lineup,thereby confirming the flood gates have been opened for overseas players?
5] Will Danie Rossow revert to 8 th man, signalling an end of Kanko Bok aspirations,especially in the NH?
Is this the beginning of a new Bok landscape?
Smits last test??
I am not sure everyone fully appreciates the huge dcisions resting on PDV S shoulders today.
My opinion is PDV will leave Pandoras box unopened right now….and persist with the Smit at 3 experiment. I think he will take the stance that the Irish may not pose as big a scrum threat as the Italians and French….and select accordingly.
Time will tell….
26 Nov 2009, 07:54 am
@SKW: agree
only we saffas know how to tear into each other better than the british media
instead of deriding the inefficiencies of our opposition we onstantly deride the “inefficiencies” in our own team
where’s the respect for the springbok when we tear a player down in this fashion
no wonder okes like Frans Steyn leave
its BS man
26 Nov 2009, 07:56 am
I feel for Adi but he is not top of his game at the moment and playing out of position, perhaps a good S14 will see him back to his best. Thank goodness PdV is the coach and not the very knowledgeable bloggers on this site. Feel for the coach can’t win with the haters (those that don’t want to see a coach of colour doing well) or the so called supporters (those that don’t want the coach picking white players they don’t like).
26 Nov 2009, 07:58 am
@grant10: if you cant take the heat…get out of the kitchen!
PdV is there to make these tough calls
shouldnt have applied if he wasnt going to be able to handle it
Not easy
Not easy at all
26 Nov 2009, 08:01 am
@Papoose: agree….now he earns the bucks….showtime!
26 Nov 2009, 08:03 am
A few bloggers’ prayers have been answered, I guess.
Good thing about it is that WO probably won’t start.
26 Nov 2009, 08:04 am
Yes charile, i am from SKW. Stopped playing abt a year ago, still support them though.
26 Nov 2009, 08:04 am
Wynand needs to start at 12.
Jean is still in Ireland and will continue to play there once this tour is done.
It is time we show faith in players like Wynand who has been part of this setup for many years.
26 Nov 2009, 08:05 am
@PissAnt:
And of course, who is in great form himself.
26 Nov 2009, 08:05 am
Aaaah , the coach have oppened his eyes , we need the best combinations in midfield and Jean and Fourie are the best. Good move mr coach. Stop this nonsens of players that’s playing overseas will not be allowed to play for the boks.
26 Nov 2009, 08:06 am
Well, Jon Cardinelli, with all the poison arrows that you and others direct against players who you feel do not deserve to be in the springbok team, it is not surprising that they end up injured. Fortunately, you and others of your ilk have met your match in Peter de Villiers’ wife and family who understand these things.
26 Nov 2009, 08:07 am
@radiohead:
That is about the weirdest post of 2009…
26 Nov 2009, 08:08 am
Pity Juan is injured. The last two times we beat Ireland Bob Skinstad and Andre Venter had huge games!
26 Nov 2009, 08:11 am
ag, another stab at adi.
when will it end?
wo was dogshit in 2007 and yet jake took him to the wc whilst adi was for me the top impact player in the s14.
wo and jaque then looked useless against the lions in the 3rd test. wo was anonymous against leicester, jaque anonymous vs the frogs and adi is slammed again?
against italy we scored 5 tries! oh ja, but the defensive gap (borderline obstruction and arguably morne steyns man, ja morne the guy who had a shocker btw) was adi’s?
ag, i dont think adi did so well at 12 IN THE TWO OPPORTUNITIES HE HAD, but i also dont think wo has shone in ALMOST TWENTY TESTS (unless you count a single try vs the italians as outstanding!).
oh well, par for the course i suppose.
26 Nov 2009, 08:11 am
If Adi Jacobs was really a quota selection (I HATE SAYING THIS) why was he not replaced by another player of colour like Juan De Jongh ?
26 Nov 2009, 08:13 am
ROG the dog… smarmy twit… was saying how the Boks would miss JdV etc…
I’m not saying Jean wears superman-tights but opponents do respect Jean and if they were expecting him not to be there their planning would’ve reflected that… With this late and unexpected announcement they are going to have to go back to the drawing board and include JdV in their plans…
This news has got to have unsettled the Irish to some extent…
Brilliant move by PdViva!!
26 Nov 2009, 08:13 am
@SKW: I am still playing for Hands & Heart RFC in Kraaifontein
26 Nov 2009, 08:15 am
We have two stand-offs who can’t tackle for **** but let’s not worry about their channel.
26 Nov 2009, 08:17 am
@rangerman: It took Meisiekind 26 tests @ 12 to score his first test try, and it was from a forward pass aswell
26 Nov 2009, 08:18 am
btw, i am happy to have JdV’s back in the team but i have major reservations about picking overseas based players for the Springboks.
imo, if youngsters want to go for the fortune in europe, they are welcome to, but our domestic game must be protected.
the people here singing hallelulja about dropping the overseas selection policy are the same people who will watch on tv or cancel their season tickets as the domestic game (cc and s14) becomes vodacom cup level and talent is poached even before it reaches the senior sides.
it a quite frightening scenario imo and a simple “win at all costs on an end of year tour” attitude will not mitigate the effects of opening the floodgates.
26 Nov 2009, 08:19 am
@PissAnt: u’re so funny in responding to urself
common guys..1 try in 26 caps
thats poor in anyone’s standings for a inside centre
numbers dont lie
26 Nov 2009, 08:19 am
Jaque Fourie is woeful in defense at times, he hasnt been great in attack either this year. I hope he has a big game on Sat.
26 Nov 2009, 08:21 am
@Tacitus:
Overall JDEV brings more far to the party than WO. And his defense is not as suspect as you would like everyone to believe. A couple of hand offs that eveyone remembers, but choose to forget the many great defensive tackles he has made.
Why he has started so many games ahead of the limited WO. Play the best guys whenever possible.
WO vs JDEV = only one winner and it’s not WO. This game has no place for sentiment , when will we start realizing this.
26 Nov 2009, 08:21 am
Defence
26 Nov 2009, 08:21 am
@Charlie: ja, but THANK GOODNESS adi isnt there eh?
fark me, i am almost sickened by the open celebration of a players injury.
almost, but then i look at where it comes from and i realise this journo is probably still red faced after his extraordinary arrogance preceding the france game and needs a whipping boy.
well you can fool some of the people….
26 Nov 2009, 08:21 am
@justrugby:
Typing sucks……need my java !!!
26 Nov 2009, 08:23 am
Although I think De Villiers and Jaque would be our best combo, I think its unfair to Olivier if he doesn’t start.
Either way, delighted that Jacobs is not playing.
26 Nov 2009, 08:25 am
@Charlie:
Be fair, Wynand had 6 starts at inside centre in his 26 tests, having come from the bench, play wing and outside center on more occassions.
Wynand has been the best 12 on form this year and deserves his break.
Injuries happen, tough luck for Adi.
26 Nov 2009, 08:25 am
Olivier vs Adi Jacobs.
would only ever be one winner there in the Real World.
26 Nov 2009, 08:25 am
@Papoose:
Yes, but Olivier has been a rubbish player up until this year/last year. Lets not forget all those games he came off the bench in, with 5 minutes to go.
26 Nov 2009, 08:27 am
@justrugby:
Having said that if they do start with WO, good on him and I hope he takes his golden opportunity this time……he is by no means a bad player and will not let the side down !!
I hope Adi can get some rest , properly recover from his injuries and reinvent himself in the S14.
26 Nov 2009, 08:28 am
@SKW:
You can’t be serious? Jaque Fourie is one of the most aggressive defenders in world rugby. And his attack? Just look at the tries and the way he scored them this year.
The man has scored against every national team he’s played against.
26 Nov 2009, 08:28 am
@rangerman:
disagree bud…
with young guys… and experienced players… being able to play overseas, it widens our player-pool considerably… I don’t see how that is detrimental to SA rugby at all… It is more damaging to European rugby where their youngsters are not getting a shot at club level…
But our provinces can only employ ‘so’ many players… So I say let our players play anywhere and pick the best players from not just our local teams but wherever they may play…
I see it as a great thing for the individual players and for South African rugby…
26 Nov 2009, 08:28 am
It is so funny how everyone ******* that we do not develop depth, but as soon as the chips are down or there is some pressure everyone is ecstatic that the coaching staff runs back to the overplayed tried and tested and puts no faith in the back up players.
Wynand deserves his chance, Jean made his decision knowing the consequence and yes, given the circumstances I am ecstatic that Jean is available as cover – but the coach needs to invest some faith in guys who are showing good form and has been part of the setup for many years.
This is what this tour was supposed to be about not so?
26 Nov 2009, 08:29 am
i mean no offence to wo btw.
he has had a great season domestically and deserves a start ahead of JdV who chose the money train, but he is not an automatic selection ahead of adi imo and shouldnt be touted as some kind of poor stepchild who has never been to the ball.
he went to the wc and got a winners medal in spite of completing more passes to the linesman in one season than anyone on earth.
he has had plenty opportunity and never made the jersey his own, much like the situation kanko and ruan will find themselves in soon.
so the adi experimnet was not only justified, but a must in view of the shortage of quality 12′s in south africa (bet some of you wish baritt was back eh?). it seemingly wasnt the answer, but get off adi’s back jc you prat, he would probably run over you like lomu ran over catt boykie.
and good luck to whoever represents our country this weekend at 12!
bokke!
26 Nov 2009, 08:29 am
Pick the best players. Drop this stupid local selection bull. Wynand is not in the same class as Jean.
Adi Jacobs is not a bad player suddenly, he’s just out of position. Did well for the boks at outside center but just doesnt have the physicality or ability to read the game that an inside center needs.
@SKW: Jacques often ends up in defensive difficulties because Adi is coming up short on his inside. There were far fewer issues with Jean on his inside.
26 Nov 2009, 08:29 am
Let’s see what WO does. He will be under the microscope on Saturday. For our sake let’s hope he does not have his usual game in green and gold but rather a decent one for a change.
26 Nov 2009, 08:30 am
@PissAnt: But he aven’t make the step-up to test rugby
26 Nov 2009, 08:31 am
@PissAnt:
The mid-week games were for that. PdV doesn’t like to lose test matches, and neither do I.
26 Nov 2009, 08:33 am
Judging a player’s ability by his try count will never be an accurate yard stick (wingers would be the exception).
If a 12 does his job by creating space for those outside him or making that crucial half break, the tries will come. The fact that the wing or the lazy prop having a breather on the sideline takes the final pass and the glory is irrelevant.
While JDV would still be first choice, everything else being equal, Olivier deserves his chance to start against genuine competition and he won’t let the team down.
26 Nov 2009, 08:34 am
@SKW: Are you Brendell Brandt?
26 Nov 2009, 08:34 am
@ufo: mate, just ask argentinian fans if they would like to watch their top players in argentina.
and imagine the cc REMAINING bok-less after the 3n as all our top stars wing their way back to europe like sparrows.
no man, i want to see the boks here in south africa and i pay R1000 for a season ticket for that privelege.
is a season ticket worth that much in a cc and s14 shorn of the top talent?
no man, the ramifications are massive.
26 Nov 2009, 08:34 am
@Charlie:
Haven’t made the step up playing in a different position every single time?
I would venture to say Wynand who started in only 6 at inside centre, started a game of rugby at test level on only about 3 or 4 other occassions.
Making the step up?
Come now, if you invest in the player and afford him game time then can you judge whether he can make the step up not on 8 starts in 26 tests in 3 or 4 different positions!
@Kobus Kitty:
Uhm, we have lost tests with JDV at centre for the record.
On form, Wynand was better than even JDV in 2009 in the Super 14.
26 Nov 2009, 08:36 am
Olivier will start. That’s where my money is.
Jean on the bench to cover 11,12,13,14.
Its only fair.
26 Nov 2009, 08:37 am
@rangerman: thank you rangerman
26 Nov 2009, 08:41 am
@Transformation: pleasure man.
anyway, out for now.
tjorts julle!
26 Nov 2009, 08:43 am
Me too, out for now.
26 Nov 2009, 08:44 am
@ufo:
“…I don’t see how that is detrimental to SA rugby at all…”
Well, if you don’t see it does not mean that it won’t be. A lot of people see that it will be, PdV included hence his policy of only selecting local players first and overseas players only in case of emergency.
26 Nov 2009, 08:44 am
No im not brendall.
26 Nov 2009, 08:45 am
ROY , how much longer are we going to have to suffer with this reply button problem, cannot follow a discussion this way……I am on the verge of boycotting until this is sorted out !!
26 Nov 2009, 08:46 am
Can supersport not give Adi a job?
That is the closest he should be to a rugby field.
26 Nov 2009, 08:47 am
2.30pm on Supersport blitz , live team announcement !!
26 Nov 2009, 08:47 am
@PissAnt:
This is where I believe we sometimes make the mistake. Some players can step up some just cant. Super 14 is somewhat overrated imho especially as a yardstick for international rugby. The spectacle called super rugby is largely responsible for the following 2 fundamental flaws in our game:
a) Proper 8 man scrummaging and sustained effort.
b) numbers at the breakdown for cleaning out or vigorous counter rucking
Super rugby is also much more free spirited which will result in gaps or opportunity.
26 Nov 2009, 08:48 am
@Pearl Rose: ALL teams have tries scored against them and of course at times teams will get through any combination! This combination stops far more than most and way more than when Adi is part of it. Your point doesn’t make sense!
26 Nov 2009, 08:50 am
@bunce: Jealousy makes you nasty nuh
26 Nov 2009, 08:54 am
@bunce: And you on the couch infront of the T.V
(Now I am getting jealous myself) 
26 Nov 2009, 08:55 am
@bunce:
Why don’t you and Hondo go have a cup of tea together.
26 Nov 2009, 08:59 am
I agree with Ranger.
JC has brain-freeze.
Crowing over an injured player. That goes for some bloggers as well.
26 Nov 2009, 08:59 am
@Papoose: Its what has us be so good at sport in general. Do you want us to be like the English? Nicely done old chap, you played real **** but at least you had the decency to turn up! Jolly good show. RUBBISH!! It really annoys me when we accept mediocrity.
Adi is not up to it at 12. Deal with it. Get a life and move on!
26 Nov 2009, 09:00 am
@rangerman:
I see your point…
but I’d be cool with it… it would be the same for all teams… and personally I don’t think the CC was that bad… It would give a whole host of youngsters a chance and we’d be discovering new exciting players every year…
26 Nov 2009, 09:10 am
@EVERYONE
I think we can all agree that ADI is a top 13, but not a good 12.
I think that pretty much sums up everyones rant.
26 Nov 2009, 09:13 am
@ARK: it doesn’t make sense to only yourself. when adi misses a tackle it is treated as if it is a national crisis & the useless writers here carry on about it forever! When jean de villiers is put on his @rse by stirling mortlock nothing, absolutely nothing is said about it! That is the disgusting double standard! You have the likes of Kobus Kitty willing & rejoicing adi’s injury, how sick is that?
And they have the audacity to gang up on wakanathan when he points out the level of their depravity.
26 Nov 2009, 09:17 am
@wpw:
We know he’s played 12, but seriously, he’s played 13 for 90% of his proffesional career (and he’s 29 now so its been quite while since he played 12).
You cannot compare u19 & u21 to senior rugby.
26 Nov 2009, 09:19 am
@CenturionShark (aka LondonShark): What about Steyn/ Probably one of the best no 15 around. Zane is OK but not in the same class.
26 Nov 2009, 09:20 am
@Pearl Rose:
It is PDV’s fault that Adi is targeted. JUST like how Ruan is targeted by the media at 10.Just like how Smit is nailed by the media for being a kak scrummaging prop.
26 Nov 2009, 09:22 am
@Objective 101:
Man I just miss the Boks being able to get points from 55m out.
I know F.Steyn only kicks 50% of them but thats 50% more than any other player in the world from that distance.
26 Nov 2009, 09:23 am
I agree with everyone that Adi is much better at 12 than at 13.
I don’t think WO is the answer at 12 though. He impressed me in the S14, but he’s never been able to make the step up to international level. He’s got 26 tests behind is name and very little to show for it.
It’s time to give people like Peter Grant or Meyer Bosman a chance.
26 Nov 2009, 09:25 am
@CenturionShark (aka LondonShark): Amazingly some coaches will never learn that players play in certain positions because that is where they have played most of their lives i.e. from when they where 9 y.o. or so and know more about playing in a specific position more than anyone coach ever will.
That is why Nick Mallett is such a great coach, been there doen that got the medal for it; snd he was a damn good no 8 just didnlt get picked because at the time he spoke the wrong language.
You need coaches with insight on how the game is played otherwise you just have ideas and a handful of losses. Does anyone remember the saying let the players play the ball the way they see it. How far away are we now from that.
26 Nov 2009, 09:30 am
NOt sure if this has been mentioned before here but if Helium chooses Jean he is more nuts that I originally thought ..
What, with his overseas policy and Olivier in the squad …
What a mess…
26 Nov 2009, 09:30 am
Jacobs vs. WO
Speed: WO beats him by 15m over a 100m
sprint in training.
Defense: WO far better and can the stop the ball
in the tackle. WO made over a 100 more
tackles this season than Jacobs.
Strength: WO is a good 20% stronger in the Gym
than Jacobs. WO is strong enough
to keep the defender busy until the
forwards arrive. When Jacobs took the
ball up he conceded twice as may
turnovers as WO and 3 times more
penalties for holding on to the ball.
Age: Jacobs is 29… if you want to develop or
bank for the future… bring in the
younger guys… WO
CC contribution: WO is one of the reasons why the Bulls
made it… Jacobs is the reason why the
sharks didn’t (ask JLP)
S14 contribution: WO was one of the standout SA players
in the tournament and the one of the
reasons why the Bulls won it. The way
that JF and the NZ ran through the
Jacobs channel was shocking.
Jacobs do not belong in the Bok setup; the only real reason I think that Jacobs is even there is the 4 years he and PdV stayed together in a flat… so as long as Jacobs “play” the secrets stay!
It’s much like the relationship between Rose’s daddy en PdV
26 Nov 2009, 09:30 am
@Pearl Rose: Ah The Pearl!! The eternal optimist, and bearer of positive sentiment!!
No centre combination will never concede tries, but Jean, and Mossie, are formidable combination!!
26 Nov 2009, 09:32 am
Amazing news…
JD is one of the best 12′s in world rugby at moment, so good to see that Peter has decided to ditch the whole overseas thing for now.
There has always been a problem with the squad selected for this tour and so going back to JD was the only choice.
26 Nov 2009, 09:33 am
Biggest cancer in Bok rugby….players out of position….because we accomodate them.
Same as Schalk…made it clear he wants the 6 jersey in latest SA Rugby Magazine….
He will be at 7 …Deysel, a very good 7, sits on the bench….
Makes no sense…once again we accomodating players….
26 Nov 2009, 09:33 am
@siener: WO runs into players like the old way of SA rugby and goes nowhere fast. He has just become relaible as a tackler and protects his channel (which Adi does not at no 12)but that just about all, he adds nothing to our attack. Campese once said he does not understand why SA players run at the oppostion rather than around them when they are faster than the opposition.
We miss someone with the explosiveness of Danie Gerber. But then I suppose if we had someone they would be playing overseas.
SA Rugby put your foot up your behind you bafoons and select the best players. You cannot stop players from playing overseas. 90% of Africa’s best soccer players play overseas yet they stil perform for their country when needed (Mc Carthy excluded)
26 Nov 2009, 09:37 am
@Objective 101: You’re generalizing way too much here.
John Smit played tight-head prop at school level and afterwards and only switched to hooker in his second or third CC season.
Spies used to be a winger.
Matt Gitau was a scrum-half and Larkham a fullback.
There are many other examples of players whose careers only took off once a visionary coach moved them to a different position.
26 Nov 2009, 09:37 am
and Dave, I’m watching yous
26 Nov 2009, 09:38 am
@grant10: Speak to Mr Gold. He is at best a k..a..k forwards coach. Never achieved anything a the Stormers. Why do we still keep him? Anyway we’ll see the battle of the foward coaches Gert the mountain Smal vs Gary not all that glitters is Gold.
26 Nov 2009, 09:42 am
Ruan Pienaar is not working on 10, unlike I thopught he would. unlucky. maybe 9 or 15 better for him. now with that I go again. No other stuff.
26 Nov 2009, 09:45 am
@4teen: #100
WO quick… ???
Gio Aplon passed WO in the CC semi like The Doctor passes the pit lane…
JdV had the same time over 40m as Brent Russell ( I recall when JdV blogged here once a few years ago…)
sosafe to say JdV is way faster than WO…
26 Nov 2009, 09:47 am
@siener:
Good points but what he’s saying (OBJECTIVE) is don’t take a player who has been playing hooker for 10 years and suddenly justify a switch to prop because he played there when he was 21.
Same with Adi.
Same with Ruan.
Spies moved to 8th man in his first season with the Bulls. Which is fine, but imagine trying to make the switch when’s he 30??? Then things get ugly.
26 Nov 2009, 09:47 am
@4teen: Your thinking can be like a **** in the brain, like the above brainstorming
26 Nov 2009, 09:48 am
@siener: I am but once you end up at an accademy you find your spot. many kids start playing flanks and at high school play scrum half cause they don’t grow enough. There are players that can play in many postions but they usually are best in one only. We have many of those. Simply because you develop intuition for the game; there are exceptions I agree, but Smit, Adi Pienaaar are not one of them. Look at Steyn terrible at no 10, average at no 12, managed at 14 but boy oh boy what a fullback! If you have played hooker to switch you to tighthead at senior test level is a major change, your muscles have developed differently over the years, you intuition is different and so is your technique.
26 Nov 2009, 09:48 am
@ufo:
I remember JDV saying that but truth be told Brent clocked a 4.55 over 40m, JDV a 4.8.
I’m just stating this because Russell is till one of the quickest players off the mark I have EVER seen.
26 Nov 2009, 09:49 am
@Objective 101:
Spot on.
If a player is going to make positional switch do it early on in their career. Not when they 30.
26 Nov 2009, 10:01 am
@CenturionShark (aka LondonShark): I think what we must also look at though is how assies and the ABs used to interchange their nos 10 and 12 which the ABs do not do anymore and which we do nto do either, although I rekon watch the spot for McAllister running in at 12 in time to come and Nonu going back to 13.
In the day and age of fast no6s and 7s it makes sense to have a no9, 10, 12 and 15 that can boot you out of trouble. If JdV had a weakness it was his inability to kick.
Maybe Pienaar should be developed as a no12 or otherwise let him be where he wants to be at no9 as a stand in for FdP.
26 Nov 2009, 10:01 am
@CenturionShark (aka LondonShark):
truth be told according to who…? JdV has never struck me as anything but an honest person… where did you find your stats?
JdV was referring to speed tests they had done recently in which they clocked exactly the same times…
26 Nov 2009, 10:04 am
@CenturionShark (aka LondonShark):
not saying Russell isn’t farking quick off the mark… of course he is… possibly over the first 10m his little legs carry him a lot quicker but in the latter stages Jean’s long legs make up the time…
seriously… my point was not knocking Russell… it was that JdV is deceptively quick and way quicker than WO
26 Nov 2009, 10:06 am
@Objective 101:
Yeah look there are positions that can be swapped (to a degree). The 10/12 channel, and the back 3 are two examples.
In terms of Ruan, lets leave him at 9. I remember in 2006 that guy out-shone and out-played FDP. Real talent.
26 Nov 2009, 10:09 am
@Objective 101: I agree with you. I’m just saying that things aren’t always that clear cut.
I think it’s time for Smit to switch back to 2, but you can’t deny the fact that in terms of results his (hopefully temporary) move to 3 has been a success.
It allowed our best captain and our best hooker to be on the field at the same time and we won a Lions series and a 3N that way (including a 3-0 whitewash of the AB’s!).
It is time for the experiment to end though. Smit’s shortcomings in the scrum have been laid bare and other teams are making us pay for it. Bismarck has also now had his chances at the Sharks and in the Springbok team so it’s time for him and Smit to duke it out for a spot in both teams.
P.S. I totally agree with you re Adi at 12, Pienaar at 10 etc.
26 Nov 2009, 10:13 am
@siener:
Yep, let the battle for 2 begin.
I would love to see Smit and Bissie interchanged…keep them both fresh for 2011. Smit can still cover prop.
26 Nov 2009, 10:13 am
@Pearl Rose:Can you accept that Adi is targeted by opposition …. then ask your self why ?
Just like oppo targeting John at TH, Shalk and Bakies are bated now due to their temprament and possible yellow card. Because that is the weak point of the team and is discussed on this website.You will read calls for a new Front row and back up to Bakkies. People openly critcise Vic as a poor capt even though he has won all at the Bulls. I dont hear you defending those guys !!! I wonder why ??
Get real !
26 Nov 2009, 10:16 am
@Objective 101:
“90% of Africa’s best soccer players play overseas yet they stil perform for their country when needed”
That is not the question. The questions are, what is going on in the domestic league in this African countries? What is the quality of the football played there? What are the attendance figures like? Attraction of sponsors etc.
If you can guarantee that the CC will not become of the same quality as the Vodacom competition with all the top players gone, we maybe can have a look at your option. I bet you can’t give that guarantee. I also bet that you don’t even watch Vodacom rugby on TV because of the poor standard.
26 Nov 2009, 10:18 am
All this talk about fairness is a load a bs in my opinion. This is not kindergarden its professional sport. The best person should start, and since Jdv is in the squad he must wear the 12 jersey…finish n klaar. If WO starts then its on sentimentality on not a rugby decision. But neither would dissapoint so im not too worried
26 Nov 2009, 10:21 am
@CenturionShark (aka LondonShark): I have been told that in 2010 the Springboks will only be allowed to play 500 minutes of rugby for their Union, and will not be allowed to play any CC unless its to test fitness after injury. That means that the Boks will only be able to either: play 60mins of 8 games or 6 full games of S14. Problem solved for the Sharks – There are 15 games if the team gets into the final so you rotate them every 60 mins. I don’t know if I am explaining myself too well, Bissie and John will start for alternate games.
26 Nov 2009, 10:23 am
It was not that long ago when the question was asked: “What the hell is Gert Smal doing at the Boks? Our forward are getting eaten alive. He should just pack up and go. He is useless.”
Then SA won a World Cup. Gert left SA and became forward coach of the Irish. Obviously now he’s the best thing since sliced bread.
‘n Mens kan toor maak met sulke “fans.”
26 Nov 2009, 10:24 am
@siener: There were complications in player selections which is why Smit was switched from no2. I can’t put my finger on Guthro’s recent lack of form given that during Os’s tenure he was not as good as Os but, at the time a very decent stand in.
26 Nov 2009, 10:30 am
@nama1: So you artificially create a market by forcing players not do be free to play overseas and reppresent their country?
I thought we were a democracy. Does not look like it.
26 Nov 2009, 10:33 am
@Charlie: #45
You didn’t really expect an answer to that question, did you?
26 Nov 2009, 10:45 am
#127
Even a democracy must have rules.
26 Nov 2009, 10:48 am
@nama1: Yeah that’s what the Nats said. You are just stopping professional people from plying their trade wherever they feel is most approriate.
That is not a democracy. What is yours you should be able to take with you anything else is a cleptocracy which is what SA is at this point in time.
26 Nov 2009, 10:50 am
@nama1:
Yes… and Human Rights… and Freedom of Association… whichs mean you can ply your profession anywhere without fear or penalty…
Rugby is out of step with the rest of South Africa… which is not really a surprise…
Rugby could not exist without the players but there continues to be a chasm between the players and SARU… it will only be sorted when the players’ association runs rugby like tennis players run tennis and surfers control surfing… etc
26 Nov 2009, 10:54 am
@ufo: No money in tennis or surfing which is why our cleptocrats have left them alone. Ask anyone involvd with tennis or surfing what has happened everytime one of our friendly celptocrats got involved.
26 Nov 2009, 10:56 am
thing is our swimmers live and train overseas and get selected to represent SA… athletes too… cricket players too… etc etc…
but not rugby players…
26 Nov 2009, 11:06 am
although I do see the point of people who don’t want the overseas players to be selected…
IMO it’s rather like a child being scared of the bogeyman under the bed only to find there’s nothing there when the light is switched on…
but the guys don’t want to switch the light on because it’s more convenient for them to hope the bogeyman is there rather than know with certainty that it isn’t…
Although they may not say so… I believe most of the resistance is based on provincial loyalties and supporters not wanting to lose their top provincial players and possibly not do as well in the CC…
I feel there’s little doubt it will be better for SA rugby to be able to select from the biggest possible player pool… and it would bring more young exciting talent through…
26 Nov 2009, 11:06 am
@Objective 101: #130
The Nats said a lot of things. None of it had anything to do with democracy. Don’t know why you bring them up.
#131. Rugby is just protecting their product. Trying to give their supporters the best possible competition they can. That would mean that the best possible players should take part in the competition. They have the democratic right to make decisions to ensure that.
SA play at the most 6 home test matches per year. Would you really be OK with it if the SA supporters can only see their best players “live” 6 times a year?
26 Nov 2009, 11:07 am
@Objective 101:you’re quite right, the kleptocrats in new zealand & south africa don’t know the meaning of democracy, if they did carl hayman, aaron mauger, scott hamilton etc would be playing for the all blacks.
@bananas: i absolutely agree, pearl rose needs to buck up. This is the saffa way, some one in the past couple of weeks wished that john smit can get a debilitating injury so that he won’t play at tighthead. That’s how things are done in south africa.
26 Nov 2009, 11:10 am
So anybody got news on wheter BJ is going to sign for someone back home now that he has been deemed unmissable?
Always look at the weather forecast, WO will be our best bet come Saturday.
26 Nov 2009, 11:12 am
If PdV carries on like this he may very well become my favourite Bok coach ever.
Nothing should get in the way of the Boks winning every game.
26 Nov 2009, 11:12 am
@ufo: Sport is a profession. Do you stop the top heart surgeon from operating in SA simply because he is based in the USA?
I think not which is why this local and overseas selction policy is rubbish. Cricket players are encouraged by UCB to go and play county cricket to hone their skills.
Rugby is about how much money the cleptocrats and hangers on can steal from the players. If you ask me it is disgusting.
26 Nov 2009, 11:12 am
JC has all of go going for 150 posts , The TEAM has notr yet bean annouced , JdV will most probely start on the bench.
Ruan can never be a 12 , you have to love tackling at 12
26 Nov 2009, 11:15 am
@nama1: SAFA stil manage to fill the stadiums with fans week in and week out don’t they so your argument is flawed ab intitio bud.
26 Nov 2009, 11:15 am
@Bakmister: Yes he is coming to the SHarks
No just joking, just hoping
26 Nov 2009, 11:16 am
@ufo:
#133.
Athletes are forced to participate in a minimum local meetings including SA Champs, to be selected for SA.
Cricketers who play overseas also play in the domestic competitions.(Overseas rugby players don’t).
SA don’t have a league for swimmers. Only once off competition meetings. Swimmers have to go overseas where they can test themselves against the best on a weekly/monthly basis in order to improve themselves.
Rugby is different, as you can see, from all the examples that you mentioned.
26 Nov 2009, 11:16 am
@nama1:
just protecting their product… ?
They should be growing their product… It you’re standing still in business you’re going backwards because everyone else is going forwards…
a bigger player pool can only be good for the product… these last few weeks everyones been commenting on how our player-depth is not as good as we all think it is…
and everyone’s been suggesting we must pick CJ and BJ etc…
so how can opening up Bok selection to all SA players be bad…?
it’s really about the provinces (and supporters) being very short-sighted…
26 Nov 2009, 11:17 am
@capebull: True but you gotta love tackling to be playing rugby. Build him up look at what Percy did (and he was not the brightest of players).
26 Nov 2009, 11:17 am
@nama1: #143
the only significant difference is mind-set…
26 Nov 2009, 11:19 am
@Sharksgirl: I hope you are right. That sounds like a great plan for the Bok players.
I reckon Unions like the Bulls will buck the system though.
26 Nov 2009, 11:22 am
@Objective 101: #141
Really? You must not watch a lot of football then.
26 Nov 2009, 11:23 am
@Sharksgirl: Ahh damn, that would have been great…..But if signs for the Sharks Jannie will probably leave very soon!!
So What do you reckon is going to happen with Botes and Keegan now? Sharks look set to loose a couple of loosies with Alberts there now. Ludik is not bad but he must play wing they just have to blood Lambie now. Centres of the u21 is also joining the ranks so i kind of think the sharks is done buying now also. Every team bought about three players so no one can rant and rave this year.
26 Nov 2009, 11:23 am
open selections up i say….this is the 21 st century….
Like the football, open it up…
Players leave despite the threat anyway….see F Steyn as an eg,JVN too.
A lot of those saffas could add value, why must we be so conservative?
Just because the kiwis boycott there foreign players??
26 Nov 2009, 11:25 am
@Oubaas2009: If we whant to win the WC we will have to follow through or our best players will be complaining of being too tired
26 Nov 2009, 11:26 am
I am seriously wound up about this Bok team announcement!!!!
26 Nov 2009, 11:27 am
@Sharksgirl: So if Boks can only play 60 min of 8 games or 6 full games in the S14. Then we are well set with Bissie and John at hooker taking turns. We have JdP though at TH and would love to see BJ back at the Sharks.
What about the other players. Do we have enough to rotate in other positions? See all SA sides in the bottom next year but we will have well rested players and no injury problems.
26 Nov 2009, 11:27 am
@nama1:
Really? You are not watching a lot of football then.
26 Nov 2009, 11:31 am
ek lees nou die dag n mens kannie jou elmboog met jou tong lek nie…..
26 Nov 2009, 11:32 am
@grant10: I am too. Will have to wait though. Have to go out now so wont see the selections until I get back.
The weather there is horrible though Grant. High winds with rain. Well both teams have to play in it we just hate that kinda weather.
Why not extend a hand to Ireland and let them use Ellis Park for Saturday
26 Nov 2009, 11:33 am
@Puma: rather extend a hand to F Steyn!!
26 Nov 2009, 11:34 am
… ek wonder wie van julle het dit nou probeer?
26 Nov 2009, 11:34 am
@Staal: Tensy hy langs jou le…
26 Nov 2009, 11:35 am
@grant10: Can’t wait for it either, gonna be super interesting…still 3 hours?
26 Nov 2009, 11:36 am
fact is the more successful African football teams are those with players playing in Europe… many analysts believe Bafana’s lack of success is due to too few players playing overseas… At our most successful we had guys like Lucas, Fish, Tinkler etc all playing overseas…
another point… Argentina rugby was nowhere a few years back… then they encouraged their players to play in europe and now Argentina is right up there with all the other teams and likely to knock over anyone on their day… So how was picking overseas based players bad for their rugby…???
I say it again… The guys objecting are doing so purely to try and protect their domestic status…
The Boks have got to be the number one priority… The longer we can continue to excell in rugby the more kids are going to want to play and our player depth will always be great… Only the best will make it all the way…
but you guys talk about settling for mediocrity… but that’s just what you’re doing now…
26 Nov 2009, 11:36 am
@UFO
“a bigger player pool can only be good for the product…”
A bigger player pool does not necessarily equates to a bigger QUALITY player pool. Ever heard of the saying, less is more?
You haven’t answer my question yet.
SA play at the most 6 home test matches per year. Would you really be OK with it if the SA supporters can only see their best players “live” 6 times a year?
26 Nov 2009, 11:36 am
@Bakmister:
26 Nov 2009, 11:36 am
@Bakmister: Jacques and Keegan have been passengers for a good part of this season, then there is Skoliwe Ndlovu who although small, is up and coming and quite a good fetcher which we desperately need. I think with both Jacques and Keegan it will all depend on how they do this season. If I were Keegan I would change to Centre, he is not big enough for a forward and he has the speed of a centre, and the Sharks are very thin at Centre. But not having actually played rugby myself, I don’t know how easy this change would be. My son did it the other way, he went from centre to Flank but he is only 10!
I am very excited about Lambie, he, I am sure, will be the next Sharks star, really hope he gets some game time.
Plum has stated categorically that this year each player will have to fight for his jersey, that the lack of competition last year led to egos which he will not tolerate this year. If managed correctly I believe we will have a better performance from many of the Shark’s players this season. At least that is my hope.
26 Nov 2009, 11:39 am
@Mutant: ja….career changing too!!
26 Nov 2009, 11:39 am
@grant10: 157 – Grant I am with you on that 100% mate. Also they could change venue and play at Ellis Park
Hard dry field with sun on the back at altitude and all 
26 Nov 2009, 11:40 am
Not sure if i have mentioned this before on this blog….
IMo we are playing with the wrong gameplan……
we keep on bashing and we are not turning them around with a grubber or 2…. thus they line-up and keep tackling us back. We need to change our kicking game as well – not always just boot it to mars & wait for it to come down… teams have adapted to that…
kom manne – change die game n bietjie…. lat ek sien….
26 Nov 2009, 11:40 am
Cheers all out of here now.
Hope the selections are all who we want. Just hope Bakkies is there and over that back injury.
26 Nov 2009, 11:42 am
already have 74 saffas playing overseas anyway.
And those leagues are starting to consider foreign capping as well….so it will cut back on saffas overseas….
No…its the way to go….cant stop the normal market forces…
26 Nov 2009, 11:43 am
@Puma: Cheers Puma
26 Nov 2009, 11:43 am
@Staal:
Staal bud… we used to try it as kids…
can’t be done…
unless your name is Gene Simmons…
in which case you can catch flies as three feet…!!
26 Nov 2009, 11:45 am
@ufo: #161
Argintina did not have a league to speak of, in terms of quality that is. Of course their players will develop faster playing in Europe.
You cannot compare their scenario to SA players leaving the hardest provincial competition in the world (CC) to go and play in a competition, who many have said before, is of a lesser standard.
Btw, I’m not objecting to protect provincial status. I’m a WP fan, for crying out loud.
26 Nov 2009, 11:46 am
@nama1:
you’re really reaching bud…
of course… but a bigger player pool is more likely to produce more quality players… you know this…
no… I want to see the best Boks in the overseas games as well…
I’m not rich enough to fly aorund the country every time the Boks play… so I only get to watch them live at Newlands anyway..
26 Nov 2009, 11:47 am
@ufo: That is the most ridiculous justification I’ve yet heard. We are not Argentina, neither is OZ or NZ. The S14 is aruably the top non international competiotiuon in the world, and you’re suggesting that our players will improve by going to play in europe? Where’s your logic?
26 Nov 2009, 11:49 am
@ufo: sorry UFO – last line lost me..
26 Nov 2009, 11:49 am
I’m reminded of the all conquering West Indian Cricket team which quickly developed into Minnows (when compared to their previous heights). Players playing abroad were not considered for selection and this led to mediocre players taking their place.
I don’t see why it is a problem playing abroad, Rugby is a profession and just as normal South African’s go work abroad, what is the difference. It’s not like they trading in their citizenship, if you allowed to VOTE, you should be allowed to play.
26 Nov 2009, 11:49 am
@nama1: #172
but they would be replaced by other young guys playing in “the hardest provincial competition in the world (CC)” and they would develop and improve and become the great players of the future…
again I ask…
How is this a bad thing?
26 Nov 2009, 11:50 am
@Sharksgirl: Look i love the Sharks but you have to say that this side is probably one of their best if not the best Sharks side ever(that is based on paper now). If they cant win this stupid ran by greedy disgusting old men competition now when will they? Isint the Sharks a privatly owned organization? Hell is there no motivaters in durban or Dr Phill’s to get them out of this chokers hoodoo!!! Gee worse how hard can it be to change one’s mindset.
But what am i going on about, if we fail again next year i will still support them and wear my replicas and say exactly the same thing again. Over and Over
26 Nov 2009, 11:51 am
@Staal:
sorry bud… Gene Simmons… bass player for the Band Kiss… and extremely bright businessman… has a farking long tongue…
26 Nov 2009, 11:52 am
@ufo:
yikes staal… sorry again…
“catch flies AT three feet…”
26 Nov 2009, 11:54 am
Yip you have to feel for Wynand. I really rated him when he first came on the scene for the Bulls but was the first to admit he wasnt making it at test level during Jakes tenor.
Hes hit some form again this year and with de Viliiers and Steyn out of the picture, Wynand deserves a second chance.
Until SA finds an awesome fullback (with actual pace for counter-attacks)I still feel the best option is Fourie back at 15 with Adi at 13 (Adi is not a 12).
J Fourie is too good a player not to make a huge impact at 15
26 Nov 2009, 11:54 am
@David:
and you’re welcome to your opinion David…
but no more ridiculous than saying that picking overseas players is going to hurt domestic rugby is SA…
26 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
@Sharksgirl: You right until the Sharks get a fetcher, the cabinet will remain bare
26 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
@nama1: Nope I watch in passing and have yet to see and empty stadium despite our best players playing overseas. When SA won the Confed Cup under Clive Barker how many players were playing overseas?
Most of them. Time for rugby to grow up and keep up with times if it wishes to become a real economic force of the future.
26 Nov 2009, 11:56 am
@ufo: hehehe that’s what i thought…
26 Nov 2009, 11:57 am
@grant10: Can’t see a total opening it up can be good for our rugby long term.
All our young talent will go over looking for $$$$$ and get lost in the system instead of trying to prove themselves here.
Think Jake Boer, Gerhard Vosloo, Andries Claasen for eg. Never gonna make the Bok side from over there if you have never been part of the system.
Maybe a solution is that if you have played over 20 tests or so, you can be considered? That would mean players would have to stay in SA to make the squad initially.
As an eg. How is WP Nel going to make the Bok team if he left for overseas now? How can we measure him against the best SA has got? Sure we will see him up against international opposition but its always great to see him scrumming against our best.
26 Nov 2009, 11:59 am
@David:
BTW David… I did not suggest that… if you’d read my posts you’d see I’m saying the improvement will be on a local level in South Africa where younger players will step up…
I was just using Argie and other examples to show that with the correct mind-set using players based elsewhere invariably is a good thing… I’ve come up with many examples but you guys can come with no actual examples of foreign based players being a bad thing…
you all base your opinions on supposition and assumption and fear…
26 Nov 2009, 12:01 pm
@ufo: Step away from the hole and leave the shovel alone…
26 Nov 2009, 12:04 pm
@ufo: except for the Egyptians…90% or even more of their team plays in Egypt and they are successful
26 Nov 2009, 12:07 pm
@Oubaas2009: How does SAFA know which players to look for overseas?
Arguments to keep players here ar doing nothing more than wrapping the sport/profession in cotton wool which is to the detriment of the sport. If there were greater financial incentives therewoudl be more players etc etc. How does Brazil know it needs to select Kaka who has been playing overseas for the last 10 years? How does Brazil pick their players most of whom play overseas?
This idea that we must protect rugby is absolute nonsense, we are actually destroying rugby as the financial attraction is limited to those few wh can make for the rich provinces or unions.
Free rugby and you will see the difference.
26 Nov 2009, 12:07 pm
@Staal:
thanks for the advice mate…
but I’m not in a hole…
these guys need to switch the light on!!
26 Nov 2009, 12:08 pm
@Transformation: Mina Nassif included
26 Nov 2009, 12:09 pm
@Oubaas2009: ja…it certainly is a complex issue….not cut and dried…my take is we seem to lose so many players despite the threat anyway….but i certainly concede it is complex.
26 Nov 2009, 12:09 pm
@Transformation:
sure there are always exceptions…
so just imagine how great they would do if more of their players did play overseas…!!
26 Nov 2009, 12:11 pm
@ufo:
My comment regarding your observation regarding Argentina and african soccer, is based on the fact that we are already one of the top teams in the world and the S14 the top competition, so that parallel doesn’t apply. As for protecting the domestic game, if NZ and Oz followed suit the value of the S14 would drop enormously and so would the income from NewsCorp, and it’s that income that keeps the game afloat.
Seph Blatter has already stated his concern about how the European clubs have benefitted to the detriment of the African ones.
26 Nov 2009, 12:11 pm
@Staal:
thing is… PdViva is doing the right thing… IMO… and that’s good enough for me…
and fortunately… he is the one picking the team…!!
26 Nov 2009, 12:12 pm
@Objective 101: I hear what you are saying. The fear comes from a devalued Currie Cup and S14.
SA Rugby is obviously going to protect their assets. Its their business and makes financial sense. Same as NZRU. A devalued domestic compo means less money in the kitty means they can pay players less means more go overseas.
I for one would like to see our players playing at home. The Guiness Premiership, Top 14 French etc just don’t appeal to me. Give me CC or S14 anytime.
26 Nov 2009, 12:12 pm
@Objective 101: And time for soccer to go back to players playing overseas so we can start winning again
26 Nov 2009, 12:14 pm
@grant10: #169
It would have been the way to go if our rugby players are moving from a mediocre league to a stronger league where they can improve like the Argie rugby players or African soccer player who are in Europe. But, that is not the case. In SA we have a rugby competition that is regarded by many as the toughest provincial competition in the world or thereabouts.
The loyal SA supporters also deserve to see the best SA players in action on a weekly basis. After all, that is why they are willing to pay the kind of money that are asked at the gates.
26 Nov 2009, 12:18 pm
@David:
David… that’s not logical at all… so we’re the best team… based on skills of players playing in our domestic comp… right…? so those players go and play overseas and a new crop of young players step up into that same rugby ‘nursery’ and become great players too…
how is this bad…
with respect… you’re making an assumption… which of course you’re entitled to do…
but can you or anyone else give an actual example of foreign based players in any sport being bad for the sport in general in their own countries…???
again… your opinion is based on assumption and fear…
26 Nov 2009, 12:20 pm
The only sides that don’t select players playing overseas are New Zealand, South Africa and Australia (I stand under correction) and they happen to be the top 3 in the World consistantly over the last 5 years. Can’t be such a bad thing!
26 Nov 2009, 12:22 pm
going back to the post by JC. I wish writers like Keo, JC etc would not comment on things they know nothing about.
I mean their takes on who can scrum and who can’t. Who can play 12 and who can’t are not worth the paper they are written on.
Enjoy the articles where like yesterday they get Os to comment on scrumming. Or get Honiball to comment on defence.
Come on guys stick to reporting the facts and not your kak opinions.
26 Nov 2009, 12:23 pm
You know, I don’t normally like to say this sort of thing, because it so often comes back to bite you, but I really, really, really hope the boks are able to pick themselves up one last time this year and give the Irish an absolute snotting. I’m talking a humiliating, crushing on their home ground.
They have become the most mouthy, arrogant, dirty buggers of the NH and all because they won a 6 nations and feel they came close in the Lions series.
Like I say, it’s unlikely, but man I would love to shut them up convincingly.
26 Nov 2009, 12:24 pm
I’m personally so glad Jacobs is gone home, he must stay there.
26 Nov 2009, 12:24 pm
@nama1: I am sorry but your argument makes no sense at all. Gate income is not even 5% of incoem from these competitions.
As I said, look at soccer, they have sponsors, full stadiums (down to the second league) why? Because every second kid in the township wants to play soccer (not rugby) so he can try out for man united or chelsea. It is the lure of playing overseas that motivates them. My understanding is that the more people play a sport the betteer the pool of players is. Once again how does soccer manage and we are afraid that rugby will not.
Incidentally both magners and heineken and rench league play to full stadiums., all the time, unlike our cc and even s14 matches so that myth is aeasily debunked. It is called marketing and has nothing to do with how good your players are, it si about giving the public what they want to see (look at our local soccer!).
26 Nov 2009, 12:25 pm
@nama1: You dare
26 Nov 2009, 12:26 pm
@ufo:
Give me one instance of how, losing our top players overseas can benefit us? It would be a disaster for the game financially. Remember that SARU pockets the bulk of the income from the S14, not the Franchises.
Then look at the present composition of the Bok team. Rugby is far more of a team game than soccer and trying to throw player from different clubs together for a couple of weeks training is not the same as fielding known and tested combinations.
I hear the word, “professional” game thrown around a lot here, but only in the context of the players earnings, not the game itself.
26 Nov 2009, 12:28 pm
@Pearl Rose: 17
And who was the man of the match dummy?
26 Nov 2009, 12:28 pm
@Bakmister:
Bakmister I am the same, I blow a fuse when they lose and the very next day I am back in my black and white and Sharkie goes back up on my car window 
The Sharks need head doctors, and here I blame Plum as he has publicly stated he does not believe in them. I also agree with him when he sais that this season the lack of depth meant that the “team chose itself” which lead to senior players believing in their right to the jersey rather than performing,in the semi, yes the Cheetahs played very well, but Not one of our “Stars” could be said to have had a game to remember! maybe now with them having to compete for the honour of wearing the Jersey may have the “stars” a little more focused with youngsters and new acquisitions breathing down their necks for the jersey.
26 Nov 2009, 12:30 pm
@Objective 101: Unfortunately SA didnt win the confed cup. In fact, Clive “the dog” Barker was promptly sacked after a poor showing in the 1997 showpiece. looking at their performance back then – i will gladly swap it for today’s. They drew with the mighty Czech Republic and lost in the final minutes against Uruaguay.
26 Nov 2009, 12:33 pm
@Oubaas2009: Some french players may question you on that and it may very well be that in the 5 years the best sides will all be from the NH filled with players from countries like SA etc.
Your argument is flawed, Brazil the best soccer nation has 11 out of their starting players playing overseas. Rugby must learn.
26 Nov 2009, 12:35 pm
@David: Grow up rugby has been a professional game for the last 20 years.
You are protecting what cannot be protected.
26 Nov 2009, 12:35 pm
@Objective 101:
Where do you get your figures for soccer from? Apart from the Pirates/Chiefs derby and a few finals attendances are rather dismal. Here’re the average figures with stadium, capacity, average figure and attendance percentage. Only the Lions are worst.
KAIZER CHIEFS – ORLANDO STADIUM (40 000) 21 200 53%
ORLANDO PIRATES – ORLANDO STADIUM (40 000) 14 000 36%
MAMELODI SUNDOWNS – SUPER STADIUM (28 900) 7 500 26%
BLOEMFONTEIN CELTIC – SEISA RAMABODU (20 000) 17 000 85%
SUPERSPORT UNITED – SUPER STADIUM (29 800) 7 200 25%
MP BLACK ACES – PUMA STADIUM (15 000) ????? ??%
AJAX CAPE TOWN – NEWLANDS (51 100) 7 700 15%
AMAZULU – CHATSWORTH STADIUM (35 000) 5 200 15%
MARITZBURG – WOODBURN STADIUM (11 000) 5 600 51%
PLATINUM STARS – ROYAL BA***ENG (42 000) 4 700 11%
MOROKA SWALLOWS – DOBSONVILLE (24 000) 5 600 23%
SANTOS – COETZENBURG STADIUM (8 000) 1 900 23%
WITS UNIVERSITY – BIDVEST STADIUM (5 000) 3 200 63%
FREE STATE STARS – GOBLE PARK (20 000) 3 500 18%
GOLDEN ARROWS – CHATSWORTH STADIUM (35 000) 3 600 10%
JOMO COSMOS – RAND STADIUM (25 000) 1 600 7%
26 Nov 2009, 12:36 pm
@ufo: the number 1 ranked country/team in the world has 95% of all their players playing @ home! Torres, Fabregas & i thing Guiza are playing elsewhere!
How many german squad members play outside the Bundesliga?
26 Nov 2009, 12:36 pm
2 hours to Bok team announcement….now i know what it feels like to be on Death Row…
26 Nov 2009, 12:38 pm
I reckon there are currently at least 6 or 7 players in Europe that could make the Bok team….on merit….
26 Nov 2009, 12:41 pm
David… #207
“Give me one instance of how, losing our top players overseas can benefit us?”
oh this is so easy… Jean de Villiers…??? Selecting him will benefit us this weekend…
seriously David…
101 makes an excellent point… you’re worried about devaling local rugby but at the moment most of the yeams play to half-full stadiums…
the CC semi between the cheetahs and sharks… with all their Boks… at the tank… had over 20 000 empty seats!!
but you’ve still not given me a single example of overseas-based players hurting a national sporting code…
also your statement that “Rugby is far more of a team game than soccer ” really is ridiculous… teamwork is vital in top flight football with one-touch passing etc… it is not going to work if players don’t gel as a team and know where each other are and what they’re going to do…
26 Nov 2009, 12:45 pm
Franss SteyN
Luke Watson
BJ
CJ
JDV
Juandre Kruger
Joe Van Niekerk
B Russell
M Joubert
Antonie Claasen
B Barritt
m claasen
B James
F rautenbach
Gerhard Vosloo
sowerby
R Skeate
p burger
And so many more!
I just rate we open it up…..seriously.
26 Nov 2009, 12:46 pm
@Objective 101:
You miss my point entirely. If “professionalism” allows players to go where the money is, then the national unions can also do what they feel is necessary to protect their own interests.
There’s already been an almighty scrap between the RFU and the clubs regarding release of players, and the ECB is doing it’s best to have the Kolpak ruling rescinded to cut down on the number of foreign players.
This isn’t just an SA problem confined to rugby, it’s one that national sports bodies worldwide are concerned about for varying reasons.
26 Nov 2009, 12:46 pm
@Transformation: Spain? I doubt they’l get through to the finals. How many used to play overseas and are now back because of teh lure of greater cash? There are more than 2 spaniards playing in the UK.
I would agree with the germans but that’s because nobody wants them anyway an most of them are from Poland.
What about Brazil. For every argument there is a counter argument. What is common though is the fact is that the players are free to play where they want and they stil get selected to play for their country.
SARU had a policy of not selecting players playing overseas and now what? It just shows the maturity and insight of those who made it.
26 Nov 2009, 12:46 pm
Thing is when you apply draconian type rules……they dont work….
26 Nov 2009, 12:49 pm
@Transformation:
but they do pick players who play in other leagues if they’re good enough… right? right.
I’ll repeat… I have not said our young players should go and learn in an inferior league… we’re talking about our experienced players being lost to local rugby… I’m confident we will produce young players who step up to the mark and become great players…
again… how is this bad…?
look guys… you have to get used to the fact the SMit and Victor and Bakkies and JEan and Fourie (x2) etc are going to get older and retire one day… What then…???
Anyone who says a wider player base from which to select their replacements is not a good thing is just being dof… seriously…
Now please give me one example of foreign based players being bad for a national sporting code…???
26 Nov 2009, 12:49 pm
Damn difficult to stop a Tsunami…..you can try…and drown….
Or face reality , get on your surfboard and enjoy the ride…..
Night follows day, professionalism has created the monster….embrace it…or accept mediocrity…like having to play hookers at prop because ‘thats the best we got in SA’….
26 Nov 2009, 12:51 pm
UFO winning this debate 6 love…..keeps on returning serves straight back at the incoming players feet….
Game …set …match….
I am with the spaceman on this one.
26 Nov 2009, 12:55 pm
@ufo: #173
There was a time when 14 provincial teams competed in our CC.
Bigger pool I would suggest. Can’t however confirm that the quality of players were much better because of it. You consistently hear talks now of reducing the CC teams to 6 in order to enhance the quality. Obviously you believe differently.
@ufo: #177
Younger guys coming into the system and playing against mediocre opposition, will not develop to become the best. You have to play against the best to improve and ultimately become “great players of the future”. I refer you to your post 161 regarding Argie rugby players and African soccer players.
@Objective 101: #205
I really don’t know how you can use local football as an example to back up your view if you admit that you only watch it “in passing”.
26 Nov 2009, 12:57 pm
@grant10:
for the last time barritis not eligible to play for the boks!
26 Nov 2009, 12:59 pm
@grant10:
Thanks bud… you’re too kind…!!
Not running away guys… but am going to be late for a lunch appointment… didn’t want to leave earlier and appear to be doing the chicken run…
but gotta go now…
all’s good…
flame away…!!
26 Nov 2009, 13:00 pm
@gunther: Sorry…[ wishful thinking ]
26 Nov 2009, 13:01 pm
@Sharksgirl: Head doctors and a backline coach!! Maybe we should wait until the AB win the world cup or the proteas win anything for that matter then we will have a blue print on how to do it. But untill then it is cheers for the beers and some great sports on saturdays
26 Nov 2009, 13:02 pm
beach walk for an hour….function last nute so a hangover to work off….
Team announcement got me all apprehensive here….worried about the Irish….
26 Nov 2009, 13:02 pm
Okay what are we debating here?
26 Nov 2009, 13:03 pm
@Bakmister: forget headdoctors….
Find a tighthead.
outta here
26 Nov 2009, 13:03 pm
@Objective 101: #211
“Brazil the best soccer nation has 11 out of their starting players playing overseas. Rugby must learn.”
Now that you we know that, why don’t you inform us how that situation affected the Brazilian domestic league.
Maybe rugby has already learn not to make the same mistakes that countries made in terms of their soccer.
Another example of how detrimental it is to your local league if you allow you top players to go overseas is the Dutch football league. There was a time when teams like Ajax Amsterdam ruled Europe. Nowadays they are lucky if the make it past the first round.
26 Nov 2009, 13:04 pm
@Bakmister:
26 Nov 2009, 13:08 pm
@nama1: Why is it good for cricket, soccer, athletics, swimming, tennis and every other sport either than rugby?
I think it isyoru slfish way fo looking at the sport rather than what is good for those who get crucnhed week in week out for your viewing benefit. Sports can do without adminstrators who make the stupid rules but not without the sportsmen and women. So why not let them decide what is good for them.
Anyway your argument is flawed if you look at how many so called pariah players playng overseas have been selected to play for a team that supposedly is not allowed to field players playing overseas. Follow the tsunami adn ride the wave rather than rsist it otherwise you are going to get flattened.
By teh way have you played in the french or magners league or the heinieken cup to say they are of a lower standard?
26 Nov 2009, 13:15 pm
@nama1: The Brazilian domestic league is as strong as it has always been, bd that is where player like Kaka first learnt to ply their trade. Once again you logic is flawed.
As for Holland maybe their players are not so got ever thought of that perhaps as the answer?
26 Nov 2009, 13:18 pm
The allowing of overseas based players presents a two-fold problem.
Firstly no matter what players say, they move overseas for money, end of story.
The reason they are in demand is also simple, supply and demand. They are in demand and attract sponsors and fans to leagues and teams which means money for the clubs they go play for.
But this could also well affect the country they are leaving – we are already seeing it in NZ (who has low player numbers) and Australia (low player numbers and rugby competing with other codes).
Interest wanes, sponsors are less interested and slowly but surely stadiums get emptier, sponsors get less, and local unions make less money.
The less money they make the less they can afford to develop future stars and attract a new breed or generation of crowds.
The ultimate prize for any sportsmen is to represent his country in the elite sporting events in the world, the Olympics and World Cup or World Champs tournaments.
Money is important as it is your career, but the ultimate goal is to participate for your country at these events.
We are already seeing sponsors putting pressure on SA Rugby and unions to include overplayed Boks in CC games because of the value they inject in the competition which they sponsor.
If we lift these ‘bans’ on international players or players based overseas we will lose our assets. That is a simple business calculation.
With less money the game will ultimately suffer as so many mentioned, rugby is a professional sport now, or business.
I agree with the limits placed on picking international based players. There is not a total ban, but first option will always go to a locally based player.
It is the same in the business world.
When a position in the company becomes available, it is advertised internally first before going to the outside.
26 Nov 2009, 13:21 pm
@grant10: We ask struali for a tight head, but being a bit east rand he didnt undstand the native tung to lekker and got us tight “arse” coach instead
26 Nov 2009, 13:24 pm
It has been a good and healthy debate today and I am impressed with PdV … still dont like or rate DMuir but cant have it all.
I for one would love to get inside the heads of the oppo and gauge reactions to the Boks selections …. as was said earlier this year the only team that can beat the boks is … the boks. Do the French go yip Jacobs at 12, Smit at 3, Kanko at 8 ? Because you change those names to JdV, BJ and Danie and it would change my mindest.France played bloody well tho in fairness.
Well we are in NH and we should think in terms of the SQUAD not the XV,as we have learnt success in NH does not come based on a team chosen for hard fields of SA and with RWC in NZ guess we better get used to it.
26 Nov 2009, 13:24 pm
@Objective 101: #235
“Why is it good for cricket, soccer, athletics, swimming, tennis and every other sport either than rugby?”
I’ve already explain this to UFO in an earlier post.
“By teh way have you played in the french or magners league or the heinieken cup to say they are of a lower standard?”
Now you getting childish. If you read my post again you’ll see that I see “according to some”.
I hope you won’t take this the wrong way but, are you drunk?
26 Nov 2009, 13:29 pm
@nama1: NO I am not, why are you?
26 Nov 2009, 13:30 pm
@PissAnt:
Pissant just brought in the Thanksgiving Day turkey.
Well articulated post.
There’s a lot of flippers, doosras, reverse swing and the like in this rugby player debate.
A question of balance né…
26 Nov 2009, 13:30 pm
@ufo:saru is protecting the value of it’s product, people moan about the brain drain in south africa all the time & it has been quantified as to how it influences our economy, now if you want them to ignore that to satisfy a few then say it maybe a cashless saru seems like an attractive proposition to you. Every market has its regulations, not everyone likes the regulators but that is the nature of the beast!
@Objective 101:spain are the current european champions, they just beat argentina last week, barcelona are the champions of european club football, if you believe they won’t make it to the finals then you might as well tell all the bok supporters crowing about RWC 07, tri-nations ’09 & S14 in ’09 to shut up, their team will be no-where come RWC ’11…basically your assertion is baseless dude!
26 Nov 2009, 13:46 pm
@Transformation: So you believe that tying people down is the way to go. Why not chain all doctors, engineers, accountants etc. and keep in a stockade then lead them out during the day to work and put them back in jail at night. Great good it has done countries like Cuba.
As much as I do not want to see a poor S14 or CC or TN I also understand that maybe the players are the ones who should chose given they get bashed day in and day out. Your selfish belief that to have a strong country you need to tie everyone down and force them to stay and work in labour camps is probably indicative of your own outdated political beliefs. At this stage only or money is tied down but hopefully one of these days that will also be freed. I support freedom of choice and hopefully oen day soemoe with enough balls and money wil have thsi matter resolved at CC level then all sporting codes will have to toe the line.
26 Nov 2009, 13:47 pm
@Objective 101: #236
“The Brazilian domestic league is as strong as it has always been,”
And that is obviously the reason why Brazilian spectators are voting with their feet and the attendance of local matches have dropped significantly.
I don’t think so. People don’t attend the matches because the likes of Kaka, Ronaldinho, Dida and all the other -inho’s and one-name-players are not there.
Stop talking about soccer. you know that don’t watch and you don’t care for it.
#241
You were slurring a bit in your post 235.
26 Nov 2009, 13:48 pm
The Nazi’s tied down most of their people who swore allegiance to Hitler and Germany’s economy isn’t doing to bad. They left well ahead of Britain.
26 Nov 2009, 13:52 pm
I think saru is following the Nazi blue print. Only the strong aryans get selected to play for the Boks.
26 Nov 2009, 13:58 pm
@Objective 101:
Who’s being tied down? The players are given a choice. If you want to play for SA on a regular basis you need to compete for that place in the S14. What’s wrong with that?
26 Nov 2009, 14:01 pm
@Wezwp:
Yeah, Britain finished paying off their war debt to the USA only last year. Germany, by comparison, was the recipient of masses of American funding after the war, to rebuild their economy.
26 Nov 2009, 14:03 pm
@nama1: Bud I was born in a country that has won more world cups than you care to think where we start to play soccer at three. As things stand I prefer to play and watch rugby as I prefer a more physical game. But as presumably you are a south african please do not patronise me on a game you are likely to know a lot less.
26 Nov 2009, 14:12 pm
@Objective 101: Okai then you would have to be either a) Brazillian – 5 world cup or
b) Italian – 4 world cups
26 Nov 2009, 14:12 pm
@Objective 101: “outdated political beliefs” what he ****? You’re seriously reaching buddy…
Back to the topic. tell my why do companies that sponsor & mentor people in different careers tie them down to time-specific contracts after they complete their studies? Saru takes players from Craven Week & puts them is structures, that go through age groups & finally culminate in the Springboks, you here of High Performance Institutions where players are looked after. Now tell me where does the money to develop all these structures come from?
your hyperbole about jails and nonsense won’t impress anyone with a brain. Hasn’t SARU come to the party to add more money to Jaque Fourie & Bryan Habana’s contracts? Is that what you call jailing professionals?
the lack of logic in your arguments really betrays your nic. Objective my @rse.
I won’t discuss football with you further, you seem to know nothing.
26 Nov 2009, 14:17 pm
@David:
yes go figure that special relationship my arse…
26 Nov 2009, 14:28 pm
@Objective 101:#250
Are you getting a bit agitated over there?. No need to. We are just discussing a topic that we have different viewpoints of.
Question is, were you raise in that country?
Your lack of knowledge on the game of football suggest that you are not.
26 Nov 2009, 14:31 pm
Bok team against Ireland on Saturday.
The Springbok team is (test caps in brackets):
15 Zane Kirchner (3)
14 JP Pietersen (32)
13 Jaque Fourie (53)
12 Wynand Olivier (26)
11 Bryan Habana (56)
10 Morne Steyn (11)
9 Fourie du Preez (54)
8 Danie Rossouw (45)
7 Schalk Burger (54)
6 Heinrich Brüssow (12)
5 Victor Matfield (91)
4 Bakkies Botha (65)
3 BJ Botha (18)
2 John Smit (92) – captain
1 Tendai Mtawarira (21)
Reserves:
16 Bismarck du Plessis (31)
17 CJ van der Linde (57)
18 Andries Bekker (2)
19 Jean Deysel (1)
20 Dewald Potgieter (uncapped)
21 Ruan Pienaar (36)
22 Jean de Villiers (54)
26 Nov 2009, 14:34 pm
@nama1:
good team.
well done to pdv for keeping a sane mind while all those on keo are losing theirs
26 Nov 2009, 14:34 pm
Wow ! that’s an extremely strong bench.
26 Nov 2009, 14:34 pm
@nama1: officially??
26 Nov 2009, 14:36 pm
Redemption…..thanks PDV!
Powerful bench!
Schalk can thank the heavens!!
26 Nov 2009, 14:36 pm
Im glad Ruan Pienaar is back in the fold. Still believe in the guy, he has a point to prove.
26 Nov 2009, 14:38 pm
Is that official ? Shalk extremly lucky to be there. He owes a big one to PdV.
26 Nov 2009, 14:40 pm
@bananas: Should have been Deysel
26 Nov 2009, 14:40 pm
To everyone asking: Yes it’s official. It’s like that on sarugby.net
I’m sure keo will have an article up in the next hour or so. He’ll probably get the team wrong the first few times though
26 Nov 2009, 14:41 pm
@siener:
26 Nov 2009, 14:42 pm
@Sharksgirl: the football world cup was first played in 1930, and there have been 18 tournaments to date, as sharkgirl said brazil hold 5, italy 4, germany 3 and other countries 2 etc, now which country would our friend Objective be from, that has won the world cup “more times than what (namakwa) cares to think?)
26 Nov 2009, 14:42 pm
@grant10:
noooooooooooooo
cant be!!
no nervous comments?
26 Nov 2009, 14:43 pm
@Bakmister: Boy do we miss Juan !
26 Nov 2009, 14:43 pm
@nama1: Strong side. Boks by 15
26 Nov 2009, 14:45 pm
This is a very strong team…
I don’t see Ireland having anything to counter that front row.
Behind a strong scrum we can also expect FdP and Steyn to be back to their best.
I also like the 5-2 split on the bench. Between them, Pienaar and JdV we have 9-15 covered, leaving us with 5 forwards who could be used as impact players.
26 Nov 2009, 14:45 pm
@ashley: cool team!!
Finally we got a proper front row!
After being flogged half to death on this site finally PDV sees the light!!
I am happy, but Schalk owes PDV a big game now!
26 Nov 2009, 14:47 pm
Add F Steyn to 15 and Juan Smith to 7 and i reckon thats the WC cup team….
Sorry, switch JDV and WO around as well….
26 Nov 2009, 14:47 pm
WO now has his chance playing with all his tjommies at 8, 9, 10, 11 and 15. Here’s hoping he can make it count.
I doubt it very much however.
I always find it strange that the Bulls who is known for their forward play provide the bulk of the back line players while the Cheetahs who is known for their back line play only provides the front rowers and flankers.
Which one of the two props are going to play a full 80min. or is JS going to TH after 60-65min with CJ at LH and Missie at hooker? Or maybe CJ at TH and JS at hooker?
26 Nov 2009, 14:51 pm
Why is Schalk there? My word. I would have at best played him off the bench. Also would swop Pottie for Nokwe. he deserves the chance more.
26 Nov 2009, 14:52 pm
Lots of balance in the team now…..damn its great to have BJ and CJ back in the mix….and Dewalt Potgieter and Deysel will add hunger and desire in the 2 nd half….
A concerned person is going to be Plumtree….this tour has really changed the whole Bok dynamics….wonder if Bissy through a hissy fit?
Craig Burden should of taken the Lions offer!
This move of Smit back to 2 has really raised a myriad of questions…..
Man, what a day for Bok rugby!
26 Nov 2009, 14:52 pm
@grant10:
perfec….nice to see pottie getting his chance…
26 Nov 2009, 14:53 pm
threw!
26 Nov 2009, 14:53 pm
@bananas: Jaun Smith needs to start playing lock. Spies/Deysel/Brussouw nice young combo
26 Nov 2009, 14:53 pm
@grant10: 3N will see Bissie return and Smit shift to 3.
26 Nov 2009, 14:53 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
schalk has over 50 caps – deysel has 1.
this is a big test – not italy or all blacks.
you need the experience to start with.
the lighties can come on later
26 Nov 2009, 14:54 pm
@gunther: agree….bloody strong team G….
Your dinner bet safe now….Smitty will see it through to 2011 as hooker…glad for him.
26 Nov 2009, 14:54 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): why?
26 Nov 2009, 14:57 pm
@nama1: #272
Missie=Bissie
26 Nov 2009, 14:57 pm
@grant10: I really do not think so. With this new “understanding” with the Unions, the Boks in 2010 can only play 500 mins of rugby and may not play any CC unless it is for testing fitness after injury. THose 500 mins = to either 6 full matches or 8 60 mins, so the hookers will have to rotate, Craig will get his game time and then in CC he will again be first choice. After 2011 I am almost 100% sure John will no longer be part of the equation.
26 Nov 2009, 14:57 pm
@grant10: Bru, hold on to your horses. Its just an end of year tour game. Last year Bissie played 2 with JS at TH until the game against England where Smit shifted back to 2. Bissie not 100%, doesn’t make sense to start him and BJ doing well in squad. 3N won’t include CJ or BJ unless they are playing in the country.
26 Nov 2009, 15:01 pm
@grant10: Cause there is no better TH playing in SA currently. There is a void. And on best form JS vs Bissie? If BJ returns for WC the choice will be between him or Bissie to start. I would choose to start with BJ on bench as insurance.
26 Nov 2009, 15:05 pm
@siener: #263
Did you see that SA RUGBY’s site credit Bekker with only two(2) caps. I maybe imagining it but I swear he has played more test matches than that. I wonder if Keo’s boys will rectify it before they copy and paste.
26 Nov 2009, 15:06 pm
@Sharksgirl: yes…that is interesting….is that a directive by SARU?
If so Burden will be okay…i rate him highly by the way!
26 Nov 2009, 15:07 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): CJ back in May boet….but i bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.
26 Nov 2009, 15:07 pm
@grant10:
I don’t think it will be too bad at the sharks yes bismarck has an attitude but he will get playing time and if something should happen to barney he will be right there…
mind you if i were john smit i would decline anthing to eat or drink from bissie and I would say thank you but no if he offered to spot me on the free weights…
26 Nov 2009, 15:09 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Even Jannie Dup a better 3 than Smit….but lets leave that chat….
I said to a mate this smit at 3 deal will not see out the season…let me just enjoy my tiny moment in the sun?
26 Nov 2009, 15:10 pm
@gunther: Classic!!
LOL
26 Nov 2009, 15:19 pm
What I find interesting is the choice of both Deysel and Pottie on the bench. Looks as if they might move Danie to 4 at some point, and Pottie to 8. Can’t see any other reason for it. At leasy Kankos not in the mix.
26 Nov 2009, 15:22 pm
@grant10: Yes apparently its an agreement that the unions have come to with SARU.
I never used to rate Craig, but this year he has proved me spectacularly wrong, and I am a newly aquired fan of his! Once he gets his throw ins a bit more accurate, we have another brilliant hooker, as fast as a wing
26 Nov 2009, 15:24 pm
@gunther:
nor go to close to the pier in Durban with Bissie behind 
26 Nov 2009, 15:24 pm
@Sharksgirl: to = too
26 Nov 2009, 15:26 pm
@David: shame poor Kanko
Have to feel for him.
26 Nov 2009, 16:07 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Never mind how Smit has played at 3, Bissie has not taken his opportunity at 2. Both brothers have had a really bad year in my opinion.
I would take Smit at 2 over Bissie anyday especially come world cup time.
If thids tour has proven one thing its that Smit must trim down in the off season and move back to 2
26 Nov 2009, 19:21 pm
Yeh its pretty sick delighting in Jacobs’ injury. He may be off form at the moment but he’s not stopped trying and at least he has shown his unwavering commitment to the Boks by not losing faith despite many years in the wilderness. Jacobs should be playing at 13 and perhaps should be used as an impact player to get him back in form. I have never ever considered Adi as a quota and I welcomed his inclusion next year. I hope he recovers quickly and can get back into form in the S14.
I feel for Olivier but JdV does seem to bring more to the table and I’ve not seen him pull off such stunning interceptions the way JdV can. Just hope him and Fourie are up for it on Saturday because BOD will be injecting himself with extra steroids for the game.
26 Nov 2009, 19:21 pm
@Sharksgirl: Yeh he doesn’t exactly get much opportunity.
27 Nov 2009, 00:07 am
Its unbelievable how much such an experienced team rely on John Smit,like they need daddy to hold their hand,its pathetic.On the other hand,hey,whatever it takes,if daddy holds everyones hands and it works,then why change it? Im just mal for Bissie cos hes the worlds best hooker and awesome at stealing ball too.Hes also lekker lus for anyone which is what we want.Pity they cant just have smit giving a pep talk on the big screen at crucial times in the game.Id feel for the tired Irish when Bissie and Deysel come on.Go Bokke
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