Boks badly exposed
South Africa played like world chumps in Europe, writes Keo in his weekly Business Day column.
Let’s skip all the emotional claptrap, the political correctness and new found South African way of justifying that our teams don’t lose, the other teams just score more points. Let’s get real and call Saturday’s Springbok Test defeat and the five-match tour of Europe exactly what it was: an absolute disaster and a disgrace.
I love John Robbie on talkback radio. He is the best because he calls it like it is, but when he is explaining losses to France and Ireland as nothing more than fatigue I get worried about those ultra positive contracts one has to sign to be allowed onto SuperSport.
The Boks lost to a half decent French team, a Leicester team missing 12 of their regulars, a Saracens SA XV that would not end in the top six of the Currie Cup, made Italy look like Six Nations contenders and should have been put away by 20 points by Ireland, who in the last year have been the most consistent international team of the year. That the Boks were named IRB Team of the Year after taking a beating from the Irish was as close as it comes to an Irish joke, and it wasn’t a particularly funny one.
Australia losing to Scotland put some perspective to the Tri-Nations campaign. New Zealand’s changing of coaching roles and reversal to a more conservative approach orchestrated by the world’s best flyhalf Dan Carter, who incidentally did not play in the two defeats against the Boks in South Africa, adds more reality to the quality of the Tri-Nations win and the All Blacks fitness in Marseilles ended any arguments that the Boks lost because they were simply too tired. The All Blacks, in club and provincial games, played just as much rugby as the Boks and the Test side have played even more matches this year than the Springboks.
The Boks lost because a French team physically roughed them up and exposed the fragile Bok front row with John Smit as a tighthead. The Bok scrum only resembled a quality unit when BJ Botha was at tighthead against Ireland and Smit was at hooker. The moment Smit moved to tighthead the only area of dominance that belonged to the Boks disappeared.
The lineout, the strength of the Boks since the 2007 World Cup, was a shambles and the fact that the man who coached the lineout between 2004 and 2007 was not even mentioned in the post-match TV analysis was as diabolical as the justification for the defeats.
Gert Smal’s true value to the Boks was illustrated in Dublin on Saturday. The Bok lineout did not struggle because Smit’s lineout throwing was poor. Smit is the best lineout thrower in world rugby. The Bok lineout was reduced to rubble because the new coaching staff have not changed anything since 2007. The calls are still the same and this was a case of the master (Smal, now with Ireland) upstaging the student (Victor Matfield). I have never seen a Test where Matfield has been so innocuous and lacked such presence. Smal, more than anything else, beat the Boks and it showed how little this team has actually advanced.
The senior players have run the team since Peter de Villiers took over, but there comes a point when a team needs a coach who coaches and not a coach who takes them to the ground in the comfort also known as a team bus.
Should De Villiers get fired? No. But he needs help and the most qualified person to help him, in the role of national director of coaching, is the man who masterminded South Africa’s 2007 World Cup win. Jake White is the soundboard that could turn De Villiers into a coach and not the players’ mate who allows them to do as they please.
The fatigued South African players are hanging around for a match against the All Blacks. Could someone at the South African Rugby Union explain that one to me? No because there isn’t anyone there with the rugby acumen to give me that answer.
Think of this tour and the chaos and lies. Let’s start with the lie about transformation. Black players selected in the squad were sent home and white players not in the original squad ended up playing in the Tests when De Villiers hit the first of many panic buttons.
De Villiers said Smit’s future was at tighthead, so why did he draft in BJ Botha? Why was Bandise Maku not put on the bench against Italy instead of Adriaan Strausss, who was not even in the original tour squad? Window dressing at its most crass. The same applies to the selection of Davon Raubenheimer and Ashley Johnson when Jean Deysel also went straight from the beach to the Test squad. I believe the selections of Deysel and Strauss should have been made originally, but the squad chosen was a transformation con that insulted any decent black rugby player in this country.
If Smit is going to the World Cup at tighthead then they had to persist with him through all the struggles. If Morne Steyn is going to kick South Africa that World Cup-winning penalty then you play him through the shocker he had in Dublin and write it off to an experience that will make him stronger. When Juan de Jongh is the find of the midweek side and Adi Jacobs gets injured you don’t draft a 50-Test cap Springbok based in Munster into the Test squad and get him to sit on the bench for 63 minutes. You either start with Jean de Villiers, who is the best inside centre in the game, or you say to the newcomer De Jongh this is your chance to take that step up. If South Africa had lost with the next generation of player there would be no issue, but to have got beaten so convincingly with the best team available, outside of Bakkies Botha and Frans Steyn, then the selectors need to ask themselves why they haven’t resigned.
The tour objective was to develop players and win. Neither objective was achieved. More careers were broken than made and the denial within the team simply intensified.
The rugby the Boks played was poor. The substitutions were not tactical they were terrible, and they have been all year. The All Blacks played stupid rugby against South Africa in South Africa and paid the price. The Boks fed off their mistakes and never had to play risk rugby.
In Hamilton, the Boks were a cross kick from defeat, in Pretoria they were saved by a last minute 53m penalty and in Johannesburg they were pulverized by the British & Irish Lions. In Toulouse, Leicester, Wembley and Croke Park they looked like world chumps and not world champs.
Whoever let Smal go should be fired, yet that won’t happen because no one will remember him ever asking to make a further contribution to the Springboks. There is no explanation why a guy who won South Africa the World Cup won’t be used to improve the chances of them retaining the Cup.
Excellence is punished; mediocrity gets the equivalent of a knighthood.
This tour did not ask questions, it provided every answer and someone at South African rugby has to have he balls to bring together the best rugby brains, facilitate the uber egos and clean the wound instead of adding an elastoplasts by claiming the Boks are the IRB Team of the Year.
Now is the time for honesty because the best team in the world does not get smashed in Brisbane, Leicester, Wembley, Toulouse, Dublin, Johannesburg and sneak two three-point wins in Pretoria and Hamilton.
The Boks are not as tired as we think and they are not as good as we think. But they could be the best if every agenda was put to one side and decisions were made that benefit the Springboks and confront issues instead of blaming referees, fatigue and glorifying five-point losses.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Good article. we certainly have the player volume – but not so sure about the management and its structures. Can we even start to compare to Ireland who are very well managed and very well represented to the media and public?!!
November 30th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
“Let’s skip all the emotional claptrap,…”
Keo,……….. you are the KING of emotional claptrap.
A Dragon by any other name……..
November 30th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Moan moan moan… The Boks will stop giving this site interviews if he carries on like this!
November 30th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Ah,Keo and Jake White….best of friends.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
@Lions_Soutie:
He’s just calling it as it is.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Sad but true.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Agree with some, disagree with most.
Keo Jake will tell you the role fatigue plays in rugby, he is a big believer in Noakes and his advice.
Jake will also confirm to you that the EOYT is a useless exercise unless it is for a possible grand slam victory.
I agree that this coaching team was naive and I mentioned before the tour that the decisions made pre-tour smacks of trying to win battles when we will ultimately lose the war.
Some selection were diabolical but then some proved inspired, just look at Earl Rose and his tour as one example of a player every single person on this blog including myself labelled as the most useless player since Jorrie Muller.
PDV will need to invest in youngster in 2010 not just for the World Cup in 2011, but to ensure this group grows and our success is not one that will disappear in a 10 year cycle which is usually the case.
I think the coaching team know who is not ready for this level, and those obvious choices left at home, should now become part of the extended squad, most of whom, played for the Emerging Boks earlier this year.
The results may reflect disaster, but the warnings were sounded long before they went on this tour.
I am a big believer in a Director of rugby or coaching in a national capacity, but you as well as I know there is no way in hell SA Rugby will look to Jake given the history.
As for Gert Smal – I said it was a disgrace when SA rugby ignored him a year or so ago and I stand by that.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I said it before and I will say it again..
The true test of PDV’s ability will come when he has to develop a side and is not giving a World Cup wining unit with massive experience. The true test will be when he has to build a world cup winning unit with a lot of experience from very little.
Those second string teams I hope are not early indication.
Jake was unappreciated..and still is. Lets see if the detractors rue thier ignorance.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
@PissAnt: 7 – PissAnt, Once again good article. Mate. Agree 100% there.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
@Puma: Sorry this time meant post not article. Used to your writing articles on rt PissAnt.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
@Puma:
Ha, no worries!
November 30th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
I stopped taking this article seriously at the part where Keo said John Smit is the best line out thrower in world rugby.
Let’s face it, this was a cr*p tour. And let’s face it: Snor is not the best coach around.
But despite that, our senior Boks have done very well in winning a Tri Nations without just relying on home wins like Jake White did.
Is Snor a better coach than Heyneke Meyer? Hell no.
Is Keo spinning it for all he is worth to get his business partner/new sidekick Jake Whitelies back into some kind of Winning Ways consultancy role? Hell yes.
By the way, Winning Ways is only a win-win situation for the consultant, who apparently shares none of the blame if the team loses, but gets all the glory if they win.
SA Rugby is ALWAYS a joke, thanks to politics. If we shoved politics out the door, got Meyer in, and allowed him to pick a team just on merit, we would rule the world.
In the absence of that, we might as well stick with Snor, who at least is learning that window dressing is the ONLY way to keep the politicians happy, while still retaining a reasonable winning ratio.
And let’s face it, with Snor there we might actually get away with a few less quota players than if the coach was a White as well.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
9. Puma : Ye Pissant is one of the few muppets those posts are worth reading on this site.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
The question of coaching has raised its ugly head again , this end of year tour was an absolute disaster for the Boks ( lets not sugar coat it ) There is no doubt that SA has some of the most talented players in the world but are they playing as a team ? No …. The midweek loses show the lack of coaching , lack of game plan , and that the players were not playing as a team … Alarm bells should have been ringing when the Springbok scrum was being annalihated by leciester , 3 men cannot compete against 8 …… It is a time for the Boks to rest and go back to the basics , bring in the best experts to assist , swollow some pride and play like World champs again.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Taticus: “And let’s face it, with Snor there we might actually get away with a few less quota players than if the coach was a White as well.”
At least one thing you said was worth a point worth taking
November 30th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Said it before and will again… The Boks have been bad because they are complacent… players… management… board… everyone. They all believe they are the best and ‘deserve’ to be the best and that the results will somehow fall in line…
They keep saying they take each game as it comes etc… and they only look forward… Thing is… that philosophy should apply to the bad and the good… When they put their bad games behind them they should also forget they are the world champions and play as if their opponents are the world champs… But they sing “we are the champions” in the bus on the way to the ground… and expect to be feted and fawned over and handed the victory because they are World Champs and deserve it…
They need to get shocked out of their complacency…
Having said that I think Keo’s been overly simplistic in his analysis… and once again using his relationship to promote Jake White… hardly credible…
Thing is Keo… It takes two to tango and when it comes to dancing Jake White twinkles his toes with the best of them…
As much as SARU fought with Jake White… Jake White fought with SARU… both were just as bad as each other… Both continually trying to score points against each other on the board of public opinion… Luke Watson may be a divisive force in SA rugby… but so too is Jake White… and bringing him back would be counter-productive… Already he has proven that his Winnings Ways and the Lion’s couldn’t work together for more than a few months… now we must hand over Bok rugby to him?
Why not call for Nick Mallet or Gert Smal to assist…?
Finally… Jake White said on Boots&All that he would not select Heinrich Brussow… Duh…??? The find of the year and Jake wouldn’t have him…?? Either Jake is too limited in his thinking and stuck in an out-dated mode of rugby… or he is too stuck in his thinking and won’t give Watson any credit by acknowledging Brussow… either way… someone as inflexible in his thinking as Jake White is not the person to take SA rugby forward…
November 30th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
@Mike H: For sure Mike, I always look for PissAnts posts. Used to look for Tightheads too but lucky I also blog on the othersite where they now write articles. Both have superbe knowledge of the game.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
typo meant superb.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Keo how do you know that the calls haven’t changed since 2007?
Your writing is based on bar talks. Really **** article. Your JW obsession is a joke.
You are probably one of the guys who said the number 1 players shouldn’t go on tour, but if you look at the teams that played this was in effect what happened so why now complain about the whole year’s results?
The people who shout “listen to Tim Noakes!” are the same people who shout “pick the overworked overseas players above youngsters that can be exposed!” are the same people shouting “everyone is a quota!”. Stop shouting and write some real analysis about the game.
Aus and SA have gained more from this tour than NZ and any of the Euro teams.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Okay. I stopped reading when I saw this was just another session of Keo kissing Jake White ***.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
@Lions_Soutie: Keo is probably one of the only journo’s calling a spade a spade.
Everyone else is too afraid of being cut off from the team by saying PdV is a kak coach, John Smit is kak at tighthead, the Boks at the moment are way over rated.
How many times have the boks won and really won convincingly. The have not dominated other teams completely.
If SARU want to continue window dressing with PdV then they need definitely need to put a coaching director in the mix.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
SA were deservedly the best team of the year, easily.
However, this tour was always going to be a joke, because of its developmental status.
Everyone knows what.
Htf are Bok teams going to win against dirttracker sides, when half of the players selected do not even play S14 rugby let alone are first choice for their franchise.
Look, it was a developmental tour, and thats why you get developmental results.
No point in moaning now.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
This is the most biased and unfair article i have ever read – complete bullshit! Keo stated at the beginning of this year that PdV TRUE test was the BI and Tri Nations – we won both! Now he’s campaigning for Jake White again. PdV is a new type of coach, he’s flexible. No other coach i can remember of would change their policies when common sense says they should. I reckong Snor will spend a lot of time analysing this tour and the bokke will be a much better team for it next year.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
My biggest criticism of the Coaching staff is that they are still not using their bench properly. I think we used our bench very poorly on Saturday especially since we had such a powerful bench and all this talk of fatigue and development of new players for 2011.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
@cab:
Mate don’t kid yourself, the Bokke dont play development sides against France and Ireland, you got thumped accept it.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
the kiwis always do better cos they have more depth…a kiwi B side is far stronger than an SA B side, especially where we are actually nowhere close to selecting our B sides in a merit contest, but even then the kiwis have more depth.
Oz dont have the depth either, whuch is why like SA they tend to struggle. hell they lost to scotland. ireland and france are teh two best NG sides, those games were always going to be close, esp after this season.
the whole approach was doomed from the get-go, even The Greatest apparently can be wrong.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
@NZINCHINA:
you not listening to what i;m saying.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Well at last we see a good article. South Africans always blame somehting – the ref – fatigue – the linesman – it is so petty. The only true champion team of the Southern Hemisphere is the All Blacks – they perform year in and year out. They have never been so embarassed as our “Boks” have been. Yes, we won the Tri-Nations and we won the Lions series – yes – WE LOST THE EOYT. If you think it was a great year then so be it.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Who cares about one off games! Trophies in the cabinet are what is important.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Oh and who do we blame in our next book then – Luke wasn’t in the team…
November 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Boks were badly exposed, they were useless in line-outs , Steyn missed 4 kicks at goal , our scrums went to zero when Bj left the field , Schalk and Victor was no-where. The Irish did everything right they played the tactical gamer much better than us. Gert even taught them Afrikaans.
…… and we only lost by 5 , me thinks all is not so bad.
November 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
@cab:
All I’ve heard on this site is excuses about why the Bokke didnt win, I accept you lost to two clubs sides with a development side but you got beaten fair and square by France and Ireland, to say anything thing different is insulting to those two countries. When the NH tour SA in June with depleted and tired teams and lose do you take the win?
November 30th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Does anyone know what the penalty count was this weekend v the Irish please?
November 30th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
This is funny.
Jake white was kak a few months before RWC and now he is a hero…remember noone wants him as coach post RWC.
PDV is kak…when will this change?
November 30th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
ireland and france were deserved winners, and i have said so, they absolutely drilled us at the breakdown, they always going to be tough to beat for an SA team whose top team is worldclass, but will struggle with fatigue more than NZ cos they dont have NZ’s depth.
3 wins from 5 with narrow losses to france and ireland, reads alot better than 1 from 5, but of course the bigger problem was the pressure these dirttracker losses put on the tour and the need to play several top players against these teams and italy so as to try and sace face, thereby exarcenating the situation.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
@Sonito:
I said this before, the only coach to appreciate 22-man rugby in my mind was Nick Mallet.
He was the first, if not only SA coach to say that certain guys are specialist impact players and he is/was right.
For ages through all levels and all teams SA coaches do clock-watch substitutions, meaning they do not watch the game and make subs to build or change momentum, but rather they watch the clock and substitute on the minutes (usually 60 minutes) religiously.
As for the tactical approach of the Boks, I believe we got it dead wrong trying to play rugby in the way NH teams play it from schoolboy level throughout their club structure and tests, the kick-chase territorial game.
It works well for the Boks against SH sides because we disrupt their momentum and frustrate them out of the game by employing a very physical defense to go with the kick-chase game.
NH teams however live for that type of rugby.
Is it then surprising how Aus ran Wales off their feet, and AB’s France? I don’t think so.
But one has to keep in mind that the Boks largely play the type of rugby that our most successful unions play. Namely the Bulls.
The Sharks we all know has no expansive game to speak of.
In the CC final the team that did all the running or playing was the Cheetahs, they lost.
How can we expect the Boks to play any different in tests to what is played locally and in S14 by all SA sides?
I have too often highlighted that the Boks lack the ability to create pace on the ball and how we rely on static play for our base for success.
It is how our players are coached from high school…
November 30th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
PDV – if Boks win it is not due to him, if they lose its ALL his fault.
I reckon the problem is more to do with his skin colour…how else?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Also, lets be quite honest, the best SA side did not play against France or Irealnd – we know who the best SA side is, its the team that won the RWC and beat the BIL and cantered to a 5-1 destruction of the 3N.
Its a team that includes worldclass players like:
Frans Steyn
Juan Smith
Pierre Spies
Jean de Villiers.
As i say, SA dont have the depth, but our best side all fit, will beat anyone anywhere.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
@cab:
Poor Cab very poor my friend.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Tactics also sort of tells us why even Jake was never hugely successful on EOYT’s.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
@cab:
You know what I agree…wallabies best side has not played for 10 years now (since 1999)…until you have beaten them then you cant say you are good.
In other words move on!!
November 30th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Rugby Experts,
Does anyone know what the penalty count was this weekend v the Irish please?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
@PissAnt:
He wasn’t that sucessful in the Tri Nations either.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
@PissAnt:
Yeah I agree but I also think a team like NZ are always perform far better on EOYT because they are used to playing in similar conditions to the NH.
Anyhow I dont think we have become a **** team overnight, I would still back us to beat anyteam in a World Cup game.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
I knew the day would come when the flyhalf would be off target and the opposition would be more disciplined. Add to that a fullback who is good under the high ball, and you better have a plan B.
That said I think the end of year tours are quite frankly a waste of time. With the players always having the “fatigue” factor excuses in the back of their minds, and knowing full well they get the pay check whether they win or lose, it always seems like they’re just simply through the phases rather than the grit and determination we see during the S14 or Trinations.
And finally, if fatigue is such an issue, why have several senior players made themselves available for the Barbarians game? Pride, honour? Surely you have those two playing in the green and gold. SO if you’re really tired, go home and rest. But don’t use it as an excuse when playing for your country and then subject yourself to one more game that has little to no value.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
I;m reasonably convinced that if a world cup had to be played in France around September this year – SA would have walked it again with the likes of:
1. Beast 2. Bismarck 3. Smit 4. Bakkies 5. Matfield 6. Burger. 7. Smith 8. Spies 9. Fdp 10. Pienaar 11. Habana 12. JdV 13. Fourie 14. JP 15. Frans Steyn
16. CJ 17. BJ 18. Bekker 19. Brussow 20. Deysel 21. Morne 22. Olivier
The actual B team dirttracker side should have been
1. Blaauw 2. Liebenberg 3. WP Nel 4. Sykes 5. Bekker 6. Potgieter 7. Deysel 8. Alberts 9. Hougaard 10. Morne 11. Mapoe 12. WO 13. De Jong 14. Kirchener 15. Rose
thats 37 players who can go anywhere with a claim to being the best in the country.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
@Sonito:
I would back our kiddy team to beat the boks in a world cup game.
Might even send tonga or Fiji as well.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
@cab: CAB, I appreciatte your loyalty to the Bok team with the “anytime, anywhere” comment, but to be fair then any international side could use that excuse when losing. There will always be injuries and exclusions – great teams win in times like that.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
@wallabie.:
yeah, look the only condolesence is you guys cant say much after your diabolical loss to scotland, which left everyone chortling long and hard – along with those ridiculous moustaches.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
First off, let me just say it is nice to have all the Kiwi and Aussie bloggers back here – where have you guys been all this time?
@PissAnt:
I recall we had a conversation about this a while ago (something like a year or more) – about how it seems that from a young level South African youngsters are taught to try and run “over” a defensive player, how you must always look for the contact.
A different approach of course from that that seems to be instilled in young Kiwi rugby players, where it is more of a case of trying to run “around” the player.
I think we also discussed touch rugby – specifically five-down league-style touch rugby – as a brilliant coaching tool for union, since it forces your players to think about exposing any gaps in the defensive lines.
We have a problematic mentality when it comes to rugby where it seems we revel in the idea of contact – we hoot with joy as soon as there is a big crashball taken in midfield.
Contact is still important – you need to dominate the collisions to win in rugby – but I think one thing we need to realise once again is that you require possession in order to win, too, and that contact is not the ultimate goal.
Therefore it has frustrated me no end that we are constantly kicking away possession and depending on a negative style of play where you hope the opposition makes mistakes – it’s a style that can work brilliant if it is brilliantly executed, as we have seen – but ultimately you will be found it.
Another example is where we see the ball being taken to the ground in the tackle – we should try to concentrate on the offload in the tackle. I thought we were seeing promising signs of this last year when PdV was attempting to instill his vision of “total rugby” (I recall we even discussed Pierre Villepreux on the topic!), but sadly it seems we have regressed.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
@Richie_7:
o’m not using it as an excuse, we were beaten fair and square, i am simply saying that imo if the best Bok 22 is selected we will beat any side on the planet, at any location.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
@Richie_7:
simply put fatigue is an excuse…its a “I am not the one!”
How can NZ do so well and RSA so poorly.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
@Richie_7:
Rob Kearney has been superb – both during the Lions Tour and during the Irish end-of-year matches.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
@cab:
anybody’s best team can knock over anyother team.
Eg. NZ have their best side now and they are beating everyone. unfortunately they did not have this team in the tri nations.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
@WP Till I Die:
Regressed we did dude.
Like I said, trying to win battles but ultimately losing the war.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
@wallabie.:
yes, but only if Bokke are tired, at their best, they are the best.
The IRB did get that right.
You can say what you want but any side that win a 3N 5-1 and takes a cleansweep of the kiwis and beats the BIL – is a very special team.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
The significance of Saturdays lost was massive in my opinion. I was seriously livered with the result.
Also, Morne has shown some serious jinks in his armour on this tour. Maybe he needed a rest and we could have had Grant finally get his chance. The trick with these tours is to take a few senior players that dont need the rest and the other must be guys like Grant replacing Steyn. That way you build up your depth and have plenty of excuses for the loss unlike the position we in now…
November 30th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
NZ has to travel further.
Has any bokke considered how far NZ has to travel for NH tour and for that matter Aus as well.
Never in the calculations!
We are not complaining but the boks do.
It would seem the bokke fans label us as whingers but we could list all the excuses the bokke use.
include in that the singer of the national anthem.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
@cab: the best bok 15 wasnt very different to Saturdays teamsheet unfortunately
November 30th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
@WP Till I Die: Yes he has, so why not bring him into the game as much as possible? Absolute stupidity
November 30th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
that NZ travel is alot of rubbish, the 3N has 10 of the 15 squads based in australasia – our lot are constatly on an aeroplane and away from home – everyong with anything upstair knows that. they spend 3 weeks in SA, our guys are back and forth and if any of them do make the playoffs, its back they go again.
But that is still not the point, i have said NZ have the most derpth, the S14 results show this. so when they pick a B or C side as their dirttracker side, they pretty assured of not losing to Saracens B.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
@Bok fan:
The question is, was it the coaching staff’s idea, or the cabal of senior players who are apparently running the show?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Dear Grim Reaper,
This year you have taken my favourite male actor, Patrick Swayze. You also took my favourite female actor, Farrah Fawcett Major and my favourite entertainer and dancer, Michael Jackson.
I want to be sure you know that Bakkies Botha is my favourite rugby player.
Thanks,
cane.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
@cab:
One needs to consider how well the Irish have done winning the six nations.
I think they were hard done by though..at least it should have been shared.
Richie must have played blinders to have got some consideration and then selected. yet I dont think there were any stand outs in the Bok team.
True FDP played well but he was good most of the time not necessarily outstanding.
But I am not the expert and neither are themany on this blog…lets leave it to the experts.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Aye guys, relax. Sure the Boks took a bit of a thumping this tour, but at least some of the younger guys got a chance to get out there and be exposed to the various elements of test match rugby (including the pressure and criticism when you lose). Take into account how many SA players there are playing in Europe right now, as well as ex SA coaching staff plying their trades up north, and you begin to realise that perhaps the NH are starting to nullify any advantage SA had up there.
You let a few SA coaches and players go do their business in Australia for 3 years and soon enough they’ll be competing in the lineouts and winning balls too.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
@Bok fan:
yip, the team chosen for sat was a very strong one, i would say its as close to our best as possible, but the losses of Frans Steyn and Juan Smith in particular are huge.
Take Dan Carter and Richie MccAW out of ABs team and its a very different story. Frans Steyn would have slotted everything into and out of the wind. no distance problems there.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Excellent article Keo, i could not have said it better. The powers that be (Andy Marinos) are ether going to try and discredit you or they are going to offer you a job with a salary you can not refuse like they did to Andy Coheayne (sorry about spelling) when he started writing the truth they bought him to shut him up now he is a puppet, i saw him on TV the other morning he was totally ridiculous.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
the Irish and French are great teams and incredibly hard to beat on their own patch, which is why i have no idea why such weak dirttrackers sides were selected underming the confidence and forcing already-buggered players to face off aaginst italy.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
i don’t take anything KEO says seriously, the man speaks with a forked tongue is a journalistic s!ut…in august the same world cup winning team had “naturally” improved and peaked hence they were winning, now all of a sudden they are DOM because they are not coached instead they a have a pal for a coach. Keo Pdv was right, the “robots” that make up our halfback combination couldn’t switch up the play, even when the “situation” that was facing them was the mercurial Kearney who was gobbling up every kick they booted, in their programmed minds they couldn’t deviate from the script because they’re can only do that kick & chase nonsense and nothing else. what do they say about STUPIDITY? “doing the same thing every time & expecting different results”
Boks are playing winning rugby
The Springboks have experience and rugby intelligence to go with their physicality, writes Keo in his weekly Business Day column.
Not enough credit is being given to the South Africans. The All Blacks said it after taking a beating in Bloemfontein and Durban. And the Wallabies said it after taking a pasting in Cape Town.
Both visiting camps agreed that it was a darn good Bok side, certainly the best South African side they had played in the last decade.
South African supporters also need to start recognising the quality of this side while they are still together because there will come a time in the future when we yearn for the quality of player wearing green at the moment, the leadership of John Smit, Victor Matfield, Fourie du Preez and Jean de Villiers and the no frills kind of wins we have seen in the last three weekends.
Springbok coach Peter de Villiers a year ago wanted to tamper with the Boks’ winning formula. He berated Jake White’s World Cup winners as robots that couldn’t think for themselves and said it was unacceptable that the ball never went to left wing Bryan Habana in the World Cup final.
De Villiers’s ego undid him as much as the Wallabies and All Blacks did a year ago. This year De Villiers reverted to the formula that works for this particular bunch of players and he has enjoyed three convincing home wins against the All Blacks and Wallabies. For that he needs to be applauded and not mocked.
Had De Villiers continued with the naive notion that the guys play what is in front of them without any structure or framework the results this year would have been very different. The Boks may have scored more tries, but so too would the opposition.
The dynamic of this Bok side feeds off structure and knowing who does what and when. They rely on brutal defence, the most imposing lineout in the game and a halfback kicking game that can’t be matched at the moment. The Boks are at their most potent when they keep it simple on attack and play risk-free rugby. They are a side blessed with the players who can turn defence into attack.
The team’s greatest attribute is its physicality, but what this side has more than any South African team since readmission is experience and rugby intelligence to go with the physicality. Each guy knows what to do and that is the result of most of them being together for six years.
Neither New Zealand nor Australia wanted to look foolish on attack but incredible defence and the most accurate field-kicking game turned these professionals into bumbling schoolboys. Defence is a skill, as much as attack is, and one of the most difficult skills to master is the line kicking game.
It may not look pretty, but it is effective, and I for one want a Bok team that wins consistently playing to its strengths rather than one that appears to entertain, but merely plays into the grateful and winning hands of Australia and New Zealand.
Fourie du Preez’s ability to read the game and Habana and JP Pietersen’s chase of the kick spells intelligent rugby and not boring rugby. If New Zealand and Australia had players with those skills they’d be playing it exactly the same way.
The lineout duo of Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha reduced New Zealand and Australia’s lineout to rubble and that took all the potency out of the visitors’ attack.
New Zealand and Australia rely on the lineout as their primary platform of attack. Against the Boks this was never possible.
Springbok captain John Smit is right when he says that by winning the home games all his team has done is hold serve, and that the tournament will be determined by how many games they win on tour.
There has been no premature celebration from the Boks, but the criticism that they are still short of being the complete side is nonsense. They have shown they can play the most extravagant rugby. Take the effort against Samoa at the 2007 World Cup and against the Wallabies in Johannesburg last year.
When it is on they have the qualities to put on a show. For now they have shown us just what a quality side they are in playing a brand that was necessary to hold serve, and that needs to be commended and not dismissed as players and coaches lacking ambition.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, August 11th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
November 30th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Is this the same Journo who suggested the Wallabies were the real deal whilst the All Blacks were useless? Now look!
Ahh there it is in black and white, Keo’s true agenda:
“Should De Villiers get fired? No. But he needs help and the most qualified person to help him, in the role of national director of coaching, is the man who masterminded South Africa’s 2007 World Cup win. Jake White is the soundboard that could turn De Villiers into a coach and not the players’ mate who allows them to do as they please.”
Can’t believe Keo’s tirade. I seem to remember the boks losing to Ireland and England on the EOYT in 2004, scraping a 3N and winning the IRB awards – all of them. Player of the year, Coach of the year, Team of the year. I wonder what Keo printed in that year. He must have been livid.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
let them write us off with pleasure, next year, we be even better and wallop them again, but this time do it the right way with a bit more planning, we can win with our B side on the NH tour against their best, but they must be a rested drilled outfit,
November 30th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
@Transformation: Brilliant post Transie!!! Eat that you sick journo. Go work for The Sun.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
“I have never seen a Test where Matfield has been so innocuous and lacked such presence.”
Just prove that if you take his prowess in the line out away, there is nothing left.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
@cab:
Is it rubbish…it certainly is not in RSA.
NZ has to do as much travel as RSA in the tri nations. The boks are away for much longer but jet lag is not considered as they are not travelling. They live it up on the beach, drink in pubs etc etc.
What can be considered is homesickness for the boks.
Consider the AB when touring NH. They leave auckland fly to sydney 2 hrs, wait for connecting flight 2-4 hours, fly to singapore 10 hours +-, wait for connecting flight 2-4 hours, then fly 11 hours to heathrow.
31 hours of broken sleep and cooped up in a plane.
Boks complain of 14 hours.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
pathetic White *** kissing exercise in promo here full swing JWWW propaganda machine unashamedly sad. Furthermore those like Mike h and keo sucking on JW’s elongated self centered ambitions you no more than a bunch of proselitizing groupie’s, pretty pathetic to say the least.
Pdv’s biggest mistake was hitching his bok coaching hopes to John Smit, Victor Matfield, and Fourie du Preez’s hopeless star dust wagons.
By capitulating to this senior player coaching shenanigan he basically sold out his own vision and went along with this dismal senior player coach delusional expertise all the way to the inevitable chopping block. Now its come, as it was bound to do. He should never have listened to these ignorant doose and persued his vision of total rugby. This kick and chase kak by sounds of it was Smit, Matfield, and Du Preez with perhaps Muir and Gold in unison calling the JW sing along tune for a ‘return to Sa strengths’ ****.
Well such are the rewards for selling out on a principle. Smit, Matfield, Du Preez, Smith. Who’s carrying the can now? Yeah its Pdv the one who sold out to you fools.
Wield the goddamn whip and start culling these overrated idiots or you going down clutching their overrated coat tails. They going to sink you as they go down cause you weren’t brave enough to put them in their place when they called for the revolutionary palace revolt last year.
Give Keo and Rich and those like Mike h and the crowd their way and you are simply mince meat in their Whiter than White propaganda machine. Kick out and defend yourself and start calling the shots. Drop some these prima donna’s before they get their way and drop you.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
to change the subject…
Of the internationals this weekend how many tries were scored by NH teams and which team scored them.
In fact how many tries have the NH teams scored in the last few weeks.
Do spectators in the NH want to pay for tryless matches.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Sometimes you gain more from losing than winning. 3 things we know and have now that we didn’t when we raised the 3N:
1 – BJ Botha is an important weapon. Must use him come WC time, whether from the bench or starting – play the horses for courses.
2 – Ruan Pienaar needs to be groomed at flyhalf, we need 2 different players in this position. Also Kirchner grew a lot this tour and Bekker benefited immensely.
3 – This is not a tour for Veterans, we must rest our stars next year and get Prof Noakes involved.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
@cab:
It all depends on the draw, actually. If you look at this year’s Tri-Nations, New Zealand spent 40 hours in the air in total prior to their final match; Australia spent 33 hours in the air in total prior to their final match; and South Africa spent 23.5 hours in the air in total prior to their final match.
A lot depends on the draw.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
@wallabie.:
come come, playing in aus for nz is like NZ plauing in a 3n conisting of SA and Zimboland – its not really travel or being away – you just pop next door.
but this year was particular bad for players like matfield and FdP and bakkies, they played in everything including a S14 final and semis. The canes gor drilled but did not contribute much to their squad, cos they got so much depth.
Look at oz, they dont even have a currie cup or nos, and they still lost to scorland and drew to ireland. do you think scotland or ireland will get close to oz in their normal season?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
@skopskiet: Piet is outta his depth??
November 30th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
@wallabie.: Yes we struggle more from fatigue then you guys, this is largely because of our approach to the game. We tend to play more defensively and try to physically dominate. Tackling etc. takes its toll. Also having longer tours in the S14 and 3N also plays its part. So too did 3 very physical exchanges with the BI Lions.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): What about a new coach?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
@cab:
I did not include aus other than to say we travel as well.
But NZ has to go to sydney and then to Joburg to travel…same distance as RSA has to travel.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
I think PdV is an outstanding coach precisely because he has not made wholesale chsanges, he has also made many changes which have overthrown conventional thinking including selections like earl rose and the move of smit to 3 and beast to 1, which in their own way i dont think should be discounted at all.
unfortunately selections like raubdenheimer and maku, who both may yet make great players, as springboks were very ppor ones, especially when they have not even played any S14. That should be a prerequisite.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Pieta Div is an EPIC FAIL.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Love it…PDV said he needs to look to 2011.
I reckon he means that some older players need the chop.
I think this should have been done a year ago.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Why are we making excuses for players? Whether flying or fatigued; its your job! And if you are feeling tired or homesick then just like any other employee take some time off.
Problem is greed sets in or they’re afraid they’ll lose their spots to another player. So us the fans are subjected to sitting watching tired homesick millionaires run around the field doing nothing.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
@WP Till I Die: Actually more to the point SA played 3 games in consecutive Saturdays twice, whilst Aus and NZ only did this once each.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
I would agree with that. RSA plays a more physical game especially in domestic games.
I dont the travel is a major factor as compared to the physicallity of the RSA game. Maybe that needs tweaking to get more players lasting longer.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
@Richie_7: Why are we making excuses for the coaches?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
@cab: Yip, I think Frans would made a huge difference on Sat. Your kicking is everything at the end of the day
November 30th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
The team chosen on Saturday should have annihilated Ireland, easy, and they would have but for 2 dom doos idiot players who stuffed the entire momentum. Fourie Du Preez the darling of SA and Loftus Versveld and his 2Ic in tow Morne Steyn. That is where bok’s lost the test against Ireland, nowhere else.
What beats me is how palpably obvious it was to see them capitulate like a bunch of pathetic twats on the take. I’m starting to wonder if M. Steyn and Fdp aren’t perhaps subject to some betting syndicate coughing that game up on a plate like that. Surely when you eventually swing it out to your backs after kicking in the air failed the first 10 minutes and an easy try is scored through exposing Irish frailty at mid field, you continue on such course of action? So what the hell is wrong with these dumb doos idiots that even after scoring an easy try we revert to kick n chase **** the next 70 minutes incessantly without remorse and hand the g.damn momentum to the Irish on a gilt edged plate?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
No the problem is developmental sides are being piucked rather than merit sides for these EOY tours, cos they are taken less seriously, and that is why when the results dont go to plan all **** hits the fan.
Tour wuth your best and you get different results.
Tour with development in mind, dont ***** when win 1 from 5.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
It6 depends on the draw.
some years you will get 3 in a row and the next it is easier.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
@WP Till I Die: Haha. Nobody know but they should have changed their tactics when they werent working. Theres too much talent in the side to not have backup options
November 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
@skopskiet:
LMAO … a betting syndicate… you cant actually be serious,
November 30th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
The problem is not PDV but some of the so called rugby geniuses that we have not to mention God’s apparent gift to Boks FDP. How predictable now it is the Black coach who is out of his depth and the quota system to blame for the woes. It is a myth that Black players dilute the Bok strength. On the contrary we had our worst WC in 2003 with only 1 Black player and he was a star performer then. We would have won the Irish game if Adams was at scrumhalf.
Keo what happened to saying it as it is or is it that your head is also so deep up FDPs arse.
November 30th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Why didn`t Pieta act when the ( HIS ) gameplan didn`t work?
He is ultimately responsible not?
November 30th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
All I want to know is, was Jake White sms’ing Matfield, du Preez and Smit from the (Irish equivalents of) bushes at the training sessions?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
@wallabie.: The answer lies in not playing 3N boks in the CC. Its obvious but SA rugby are greedy little ********, just like everyone else.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
@Karoolander:
Is it his gameplan? When the gameplan worked so well during the Tri-Nations we were either told that it was Jake White’s gameplan or the senior players’ gameplan…
November 30th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Good question though: how many times do you try the up-and-under tactic before you realise it isn’t working? Problem is the Bulls won the S14 and CC with those tactics, so why would Fourie and Steyn change it?
It’s all they know
November 30th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
@Shakes: And i ask again, if Pieta is not responsible, why is he even there?
If nobody listens to him or trying to sabotage him, why doesn`t he do something about it?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Agree 100% the EOYT was always going to a disaster. There were too many players on the tour who simply shouldn’t have been there. Alistair Hargreaves comes to mind. We should have had Johann Muller over there and he would have been a better replacement for Bakkies. Bekker and Matfield are too similar. Hargreaves will develop into a good player but physically he is found wanting, he couldn’t fight his way out of a paper bag at the moment. Surely either of the Cheetahs locks were more deserving of a spot?
Fatigue is no doubt a factor but if it was such a big factor why didn’t we leave key personnel behind and truly blood the second stringers. Instead we took some tired first stringers and introduced some 4th, 5th and even 6th stringers. What did we expect to happen? More importantly wht were we trying to achieve?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
@WP Till I Die: He is ultimately responsible not????
Isn`t he in charge?????
O ja, this is South Efrica where the issue of responsibility NEVER lies with those in charge?????
WAKE THE F…. UP
November 30th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
@Shakes: What I want an answer to, is the following: If transformation is real in SA rugby how did Hougaard and Potgieter make the bok bench? Quota Afrikaaners? Also explain to me why in a squad full of colour, Mapoe, probably the wing of the CC, was not picked. Also Mokuena is twice the player Raubenheimer is.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
@skopskiet: Oh dear skop! If you think that way then the Scots caning the Aussies was a quite the ‘Sting’…. No I don’t think so, both games were won by the team playing their best game on the day.
You know I didn’t watch the Brave Scots kick our ar$ses, it was on at 4am; I still have not watched the game… some things are best left alone. Well done Scotland.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
**** man, the biggest problem is that the SA team started to believe their own press about this stupid up and under **** which they currently playing, when they were at their peack they were bashing teams off their feet and attackignt eh **** into them, where you see up and unders at perth?
2 things need to happen, the halfbacks do need to start attacking more, but more imoprtanbtly the breakdown intensity has been piusspoor on this tour – we were turned at will by the irish – you not goung to get any go-fofrward to work with.
and the scrums mean nought in this regard either, as was clearly shown.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@Karoolander: End of year tour 2004. The glory days under White? 2 out of 4 in 3N and then:
45-10 Scotland
16-32 England
12-17 Ireland
November 30th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@DEE DAH:
Johann Muller? Please tell me you are joking, that carthorse is unfortunately over the hill.
Agree with you on the Cheetahs locks, however.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Mapoe is probably a better singer than Habana too. When the camera panned past Habana during the anthem I thought we had a 12 year old boy singing who’s balls were dropping.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
@cab: All good things come to an end. The up’n'under bombs all over the shop worked for a while, but sooner or later teams find a way to counter… evolution.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
John Oneill said internationals should be played midweek because he did not rate them at all.
Yet everyone said he should shut it but now most people are saying EOYT are rubbish.
Oneill said lets keep S14 going and keep our strong players in the right tournament and if NH want to send 2nd rate teams then we should give them the same.
It seems Oneill is on to something here.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
@Richie_7: And it works. Also not true that it is all they know.
S14 Semi and Final. Did you watch it??
November 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
@Karoolander: Knowing the type PDV is he will take the responsibility as he never shy’s away from it. I believe his problem is he is too loyal to his players at times. He must now have the balls to make the necessary changes (personnel, gameplan). If not the slide will continue.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
@Karoolander:
Yes, he is ultimately responsible for defeats. Conversely, then, will you conceed that he is ultimately responsible for the victories we had this year, too?
It cuts both ways.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
bugger the cheetahs locls, why in gods name was hargreaves selected over Sykes, who is the no 4 lock for the sharks with several years S14 exp and played for the emerging Boks who drew against the BIL?
i mean this is a Bok side, not an u21 selection, its crazy, what did they expect, they playing men, not boys.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
@RugbyRulz: Bombz work, sometimes. Lets keep using them on occasion. Certainly not against the best fullback in the world, maybe against James O’connor.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
@wallabie.: Playing internationals midweek is great if the test players are excused from weekend games. Some players will backup and play again but others should be given a rest option.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
@RugbyRulz:
i dont actually believe that was ever the boks gameplan, its just something that ppl have cottoned onto and the boks have played into it more and more…the original successful gameplan was to beat your blokes upfront and in the luneout ad maul, and that was what was mussing.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
I have to say Keo, you have pulled a complete 180 on us. Was it not your writers that gave the boks the edge to win in every test they played? Anyway, a bit of a negative article but I guess you need to make waves big if anybody is going to see them.
PDV, GG and DM have been hiding behind the bok success of this year. And the weaknesses of the coaching staff have been exploited at many avenues where apposing teams played smart rugby. PDV and co have not improved the boks as a whole and many a times played stupid rugby, like this weekend against Ireland. Why were they kicking the ball away the whole time? Ron Kearney is the best highball FB in the world, the pathetic and predictable “Gary Owen” tactics were flawed from the start.
The bok coaching setup needs to be reworked and turned into profesional setup like it was under JW and not the shambles it is now which is similair to the Rudolf Strauli days.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): I agree, target weakness. Not smart kicking down Kearney’ throat.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
@Richie_7: Slightly unfair given we scored more tries than the A/B in tri-nations. An A/B side that looked dumb struck and toothless until Carter came back. Maybe the A/B’S have become a one horse pony.
I agree the bomb / gary owen tactic is boring the life out of me now, however I would suggest it had its roots with either the A/B or Argentina in the last world cup. Therefore more a case of the boks nicking your idea and making it a success.
A bad tour it was indeed but give credit for the other rugby played this year and the first time the A/B’s have not won a game against the boks in a series of ganes home and away for a very long time.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Pietman – karoolander.
No Pdv is not out his depth, his problem is allowing these senior twats to rule the f.ng roost and call the shots. He’s basically coughed up his power base for the sake of senior player consensus instead of going for broke like Robbie Deans and Henry is doing by busting molds and introducing fresh talents. He rode on Smits prestige, much the same as White did, White was putty in Smits hands the 49-0 debacle proving it, and rather than ruffle a Wc winning teams tail feathers he backed down and accepted their so called expertise as gospel and valid. Now the sh’t hits the fan with this JW ou doos play without the ball **** and who gets it in the teeth? Well yeah you guessed it, not these hallowed overrated overdone darling glory fakers, but head coach catches it in the mug. As he should. And he should now call the g.damn shots his way and f’ak these two timing capitulators who kick every g.dam good ball away into opposition hands.
Smit must retire. Matfield better up his game or write some overrated memoirs himself too, and Fdp better catch a gdam wake up behind the scrum and start feeding his back line properly or take a sabbatical and get someone like S. Pretorius or Hougaard or Adams or Pienaar or any one who can.
Drop these prima donna’s its the best thing we can do. I.m telling you drop the overrated doose and move the f’ak on. You’ll be suprised as punch at the result.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
@WP Till I Die: Sure.
I will give him that.
Would you then give Jake White is dues?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
@cab: Yes I think forward domination was originally the plan… but we all know the scrum went pearshaped long ago. We have worked on our scrum and earned the rewards, let us hope Deans will now work on our lineout.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
@cab:
What are the chances of the Ab’s having two bad Tri Nations in a row, we own the thing. We have you twice at home next year and from what I’ve just seen it will be business as usual next year. If the Ab’s had played the Bokke last Sat we would have put 30 past you. The Bokke have peaked the rankings and recent results reflect this.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
@Karoolander: So tell me; when exactly on this tour did it “work”? Big difference between CC/S14 and International rugby. I just wish they’d figure it out sooner than later.
In the trinations SA kept possession, were patient in their build ups, were able to protect and recycle the ball? How do you do that when your scrumhalf/flyhalf keep kicking it away? It might work in the CC/S14 where teams have poor fullbakcs or wings under the high ball, but at international level you can expect opposition to pick wings/fullbacks who are good under the high ball and able to run it back at you. And the coaches know they have to pick those guys when playing against SA because we have a fetish for kicking ball and letting Habana chase.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Baby steps… we learn to crawl before we walk.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
this is probably the best year of sa rugby in the last decade – if you think it was based on teh up*under, its probably best to change to another sport u understand.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
@RugbyRulz:
True but it depends on how each nation will want to play these internationals.
NH treat the spring tours as a blooding excercise and Oneill had enough because it was not making money.
So he said I will do the same or charge NH teams for lost earnings.
I still think internationals are a good idea to blood new talent and to use them as warm up games to find your starting combinations.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Ratel, yes FH is an out and out quota (imho) and HA should have been there instead. I actually rate DP and he could be a future skipper. The rest I suppose only the selectors can answer that.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
I think it is fair to say that Morne Steyn had avery bad day in the office. I believe though that once again the loss had its roots in the forwards. We were walking the Irish back at scrum time in the first half. Where was the rolling maul or punching it close up?
Matfield became the invisible man. Our line outs were really really bad. If we raisd those up a few levels I would have suggested a different result.
In the first 30 minutes there was only 1 team. Problem is in the second half there was also only one team.
Well done the Irish.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
@skopskiet: Prima donnas that made Div look good.
In all honesty wouldn`t you say that Div got lucky against the BIL? Morne Prima Steyn kicked that long range penalty that sealed the result.
With that gameplan we wiped the floor in the 3N.
Now we lose 2 tests after a long year and the players are overrated?
Div and his sidekicks should have implemented a totally different gameplan up North. Agree on that?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
@pedspin: The gameplan this tour versus the Bok gameplan in the trinations is completely different. I maintain if SA had retained more ball on tour and showed greater patience, not kicked possesion away, they would have won a lot more games
November 30th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
@NZINCHINA:
we shall see, thats a big csll to make, after this year’s cleansweep, and thoroughly deserved too. if the boks are committed, i believe we have your numnber, and there;s no-one new coming through to change that. in fact, the one area you might have looked to attack us at teh scrum appears to be reinforced, with Pdiv looking to get BJ back into the fold.
we shall see, i think the Boks are going to beat you all the way to 2011 provided no silly changes are made.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Fourie du Preez:
“This Bok management is really some of the best ever and in that aspect I enjoy being part of the Springboks. They made it easier to make the decision (not to retire from rugby in 2008).”
November 30th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
@Richie_7: Fair point.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
@Karoolander:
I will indeed.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
@Richie_7: What i am saying is that the gameplan worked very effectively and they should have changed it for NH conditions.
That is the coaches responsibility.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
@wallabie.: Yes it has at times been a tad patronising and JON has come out swinging
I am of the opinion to put your best team on the pitch whenever possible. That does not necessarily mean playing Giteau every game; he may need to come off the bench to indeed blood new players. The opportunity to bring on players is imperative in development.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
@Karoolander: Agreed. But lets admit it, as a player on the field you should be able to vary your tactics if they’re not working for you. You don’t keep plugging away at something because its worked in the past or because your coach told you to do it.
A little less predictability from the halfback pair and a little more creativity would have other countries guessing their way through games against the Boks. I for one was interested between the match up of BOD and Jacque Fourie. Sadly, Jacque hardly saw the ball.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
@cab:
C’mon Cab NZ were weak and underprepared this year, no Carter in SA and no 2nd row, free ride for the Bokke, from what i’ve just seen in recent weeks it is the men in Black who are playing all the rugby. The big man will be back next year and Williams in the second row, when the Ab’s get 50% of the ball against the Bokke we beat you becaue our backs are far more creative. Watch the French game no other team in the world would have scored those tries.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:27 pm
@PissAnt: Well what else would he have said?
He will enjoy the management team, because apparently they doesn`t give him any grief.
Ja jy is Fourie so jy kan ma maak wat jy wil.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
More drivel from Keo. Surprise surprise.
Boks dominated world rugby in 2009. We beat the best (on rankings) the All Blacks 3-0 and defeated the best of the Northern Hemisphere 2-1.
Took the Aussies out 2-1 as well for good measure.
Only lost to the Lions with an understrength side at home.
IRB Rugby team of the year.
I do agree with what he says about De Jongh. He should have been on the bench rather than JDV.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
@PissAnt: How old is FDP?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
@NZINCHINA:
in recent weeks, you have no debate from me, nz are the best team, but in peak condition, and in the heart of our season – i think we got you. Does not happen often, but i think we have you up uuntil 2011 if players managed carefully. we shall see.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
Expect more of this from a coach out of his depth.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
@Richie_7: Yes. I guess they suffer from winners expectations or some obscure disease.
Like somebody who won big at the casino and then start losing. Not changing tactics, but chasing the losses hoping you will strike it big again.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
@NZINCHINA: Let’s hope its not the usual “between WC’s” peaking. That said NZ are normally blowing other teams away between WC’s – they seem a little more subdued since 2007
November 30th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
@RugbyRulz:
27
November 30th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
SA was clearly the best team, goddamn it, they blew the aussies away in perth in the first 20 mins like no other team could remotely do, they did the same to the BIL, if the boks were;nt such lazy ******** and played flat out to the full potnetial, could;ve been 50-zip that one….they just coast at times tho.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
All BJ Bothas fault i tell you….Boks didnt have a clue what to do with all that quality ball from the most dominant Bok scrum i have seen in years…..they got such a shock not being in turbo reverse all afternoon they almost kakked themselves….
That dominant scrum is a terrible dilemma….can it…lets go back to Smit at 3….quickly….we all know the Boks dont want the ball….Sat on the front foot they chose to kick it away anyway….so screw the scrums i tell you….
Smit, the great captain that has to play a full 80 minutes…..even though we lose to ireland and france anyway, back to tighthead i tell you….none of this positive scrum domination…ever again please.
Far better we go tp WC 2011 with a soft front row….
November 30th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
@skopskiet: “Smit must retire. Matfield better up his game or write some overrated memoirs himself too, and Fdp better catch a gdam wake up behind the scrum”
You are the anti-keo. Stirring up trouble where there is none. Smit is awesome, so is Big Vic and FdP has had a great season. Our main problem was the old war-horses should have been left at home. Also I like how you leave out Schalk from your tirade on senior boks. He above anyone else you have mentioned has played terribly all season, yet you like him. Is that because he is the only province senior player?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
@grant10:
ah there you are….what happened with that dominant scrum and all?
we won the scrums and lost the test…now what?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
@cab:
Dont get me wrong the Bokke have had a fantastic year and deserve the praise they have received, but I saw a weak AB side still in the game with 10 to go in SA and a nail biter in Hamilton, if this is the all conquering Bokke side at its peak then they are there for the taking because as you saw from last Saturday we have go a lot better.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
@PissAnt: Really! At the tender age of 26 he contemplated retiring? I do not normally agree with Keo but after you quoting FDP… I’d have to say the lad is a wee bit precious.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
@cab: back to smit at 3….please…matter of urgency…
November 30th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
@grant10:
no no … come on … what are the reasons … there was a specialist fetcher to win the breakdown fetching and a specialist scummer to win the scrumming … so come now…please enlighten us?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
@grant10: G10, below the surface I think you are fuming at the halfback performance and to crown it all BJ is substituted for our scrum to battle once more.
I do believe there is merit in managing the player workloads especially with our gameplan asking of players to make more than double the tackles of the opposition. Then again I wonder if this is not a convenient excuse when so many avail themselves for the Barbarians when they should be putting their feet up.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
@cab:
Are you on the sauce Cab, you beat the BIL with an injury time 55 metre penalty.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
The scary think for bok supporters would be what I heard when I saw Smit interview after the game, he commented that the reason behind the loss was that “our game plan of kicking, forcing mistakes and then kicking the penalties didn’t work today” God this is South Africa the land that produced the great backs of Gerber, Andre Joubert ,James Small and recently Habana its a sad day when boks neglect there backs to play one game plan of kicking penalties.
There were a lot of old heads on the field why were they not able to change a game plan is it because players are like robots now and cant think for themselves on the filed? SA scored easily out wide in the first half and the couple of times they got it out that way there were big holes in the defence but for some reason they didn’t utilise this at all and just kicked it to Kearney all day. Surely after 5 or so kicks that he took easily someone could say hey this is not working??
What ever the coaches and media do to bluff over the results with the fatigue factor it is a big issue. You cant make a habit of losing to these teams that you have continually bet in the past, they start to believe they can beat the boks whenever and who knows what might happen if you draw one of the teams in a quarter of a world cup. Look 15-20 years ago I bet the Irish, and scots in there minds never thought they would beat the boks and the game was usually over before the players took the field, now Ireland have won 3 times in a row and you bet they are confident every time they play the boks of winning. New Zealand may have a poor WC record but they make it a point to never to lose to these team and in doing so they have a big physiological advantage I have seen Ireland 10 points up with 15 mins left against the ABs but they fold because they don’t have the belief because they never have beaten them!
Look this century the boks have played 23 autumn international and lost 11 as opposed to say NZ who have played 27 and lost 2. The bok coaches need to address this issue and not try and sweep it under the carpet.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
or you another who is also going to blame the senior boks who;ve won everything there is to win for country and club over the last few years?
November 30th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
@grant10: As I remember it that front-row dominated the BI Lions and held up very nicely against the All Blacks. Should we drop Big Vic, because he had such a shocker on the weekend. Surely his lineout domination has come to an end. No. We will bounce back stronger for this.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
@NZINCHINA:
lol, what a load of ****, the BIL were blown away, they came, they saw and got beat, and in fact drew one to our B-string emerging boks. the 3rd test was deader than the dodo.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
@cab: Bekker aint no Bakkies he is a clone of Matfield and Rousow (spelling) was pedestrian. What was going on with the selections?
I really do not think Victor was a happy camper, would have rather been downing a pint.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
@cab:
You are on the sauce, the 05′ Lions were blown away mate not the 09’s.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
@cab: yeah….drop Brussow and BJ…Smit to 3 and Schalk to 6…
Thats the solution….
Cmon Cab….we lost the game because our half backs had a nightmare….and , if Boks knew that the scrum was that damn good they should habe had a real 8 th man….Dewalt or Kanko…..who could of exploired the wonderful quality ball…..
@Shakes:
The substitution of BJ showed such insanity that i cannot describe it….the 1 weapon we had was our scrum…and it was negated by moving the great skipper to 3…..ffs…
Dont mention the 9 and 10…blood pressure struggles!
November 30th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
@RugbyRulz:
i agree, and bekker actually played alot better than i expected, we have a guy called steven sykes whose played in several sharks sides who;ve got to teh S14 playoffs as well as being in the emerging bok side who drew to the Lions – but in fact the opowers that be decided to selected a reservence bench player at the sharks, hargreaves, over a veteran who was perfectly suited for such a tour, still young too.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
@grant10: Your solution is to drop our Captain and halfbacks? Geez good one. Brussow was the best loosie out there.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
@cab: Yes I’ve seen Sykes play during the S14 season; definitely got mongrel.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Keep raising the 3 nil over kiwis …the B Lions…beat them chests…..
And see where that gets us….
Winds of change ladies…winds of change.
Watch this space…
Outta here
Cheers
November 30th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
@grant10:
yeah yeah yeah…remember what i said about remembering the conversatin we had.
won the scrums and lost teh test…not so simple is it.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
am driving, can’t blog now. Chat u later P.man karoolander.
Will say this much while I do my multi task bit.
Div made some telling mistakes in settling for a conservative Sa if it aint broke don’t fix it mentality. He’s allowed his true principle of playing total rugby to get swamped by up n under kick n chase play without the ball **** that we were using at 2007 Wc because the darling f.ng senior status players were basically too chicken to adapt and preferred to revert and rest in ou tydse comfort zones. I knew it as Pdv himself should have known that this kak that fluked us a Bil’s tour and a 3N, the only game where we truly excelled being Perth in 2009. All the others fluked by long range penalty kicks and kick n chase tactics, was going to reach its ceiling and come a cropper.
We have made some blinded poor decisions along the way. One of them was reverting to a Butch James Fdp half back pairing in 2008. Another is not introducing a fetching open side flank like Brussow in 2008. Playing Kanko in the Nh. Relying solely on a one dimensional pivot with no width in our game plan whatsoever and expecting 3 point penalties and drop goals to get us out of jail every time.
The reality is that the game Ab’s played against France on Sat night it the way we should be targeting our evolution, not regressing all the way back to the dom f.k kak that JW was implementing through 2006 and 07 which is precisely why IRB introduced Elv’s initially to get away from such dismal boring trash. Now we doing it all over again, reverting to rubbish skop en trek kak too bang chicken to bust through and embrace total rugby like Ab’s and Wallabies are busy doing.
Pdv sold out on his principles to play attack mode total rugby in order to keep his status quo senior vanguard intact. Now he better have the balls to read the riot act and get his vision back on track or go down clutching these ou doos ou tydse rubbish tactics which will sink him fast.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): Don’t think dropping players is the solution. I’d go with trying different combinations with the old guard firing from the bench. George Smith, Ritchie McCaw, etc. play well from the bench
It develops depth.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
@grant10:
f’ck me if your guys winds of change and rubicon happen – we back in strauli era with more caps being handed out like smarties and ppl scratching the heads why we lose to saracens B.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): where did i say drop the captain?
Where?
Smit to 2 ….now more than ever as the proof was 20 min vs italy and 48 min vs ireland….both without Bakkies scrumming…..
Smit needs to keep Bissy and the other 2 s at bay…..
3 is wrapped up by a real tighthead….and what a player he is…
Now i am late …
Cheers
PS Where did i say drop the 9 and 10?
Hell Ratel, you 1 strange oke??
November 30th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
@cab: imaginw we went back at a rate of knots….??
November 30th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
@skopskiet: Don’t sell PDV short (pun intended). The guy may be playing the PC game better than most. If the players are running the show and Div’s hands are tied… they will sink or swim. The latest tours looks as though they sunk! Div may now have all the latitude he needs.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
@grant10:
imagine we;d won the test match.
November 30th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
@NZINCHINA: What a great perspective you have today, like some of the other kiwi posters on here today why arent you off on silverfern enjoying your teams victory ? There has been nothing but praise for ABs victory over France from sa posters !
What a small person you must be to revel in others loss. This is a SA rugby web site so it will be one eyed towards SA, big surprise – go get a life.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
@grant10: You posted on another thread you thought it was time for John to go. Also “Dont mention the 9 and 10…blood pressure struggles!”
November 30th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
@bananas:
Mate you’ve gone bananas, Cab is always up for some banter he gives plenty but is happy to take it, so why don’t you go fark yourself.
P.s I’ve never been on silver fern not enough Saffa’s to wind up.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Schalk was one of the first I would have dropped long ago. I would have played Watson ahead of Schalk as far back as 2006 already so MSIR you got your reasoning all caceyed back to front again.
On saturdays performance, Smit Matfield, Fdp and M. Steyn were the chef proponents of our loss. They the ones that coughed the game up. Schalk at least was trying, can’t say same for the other overrated quartet who sank us with their inability to adapt. How come Smit didn’t stop the up n under tirade which clearly wasn’t working, I wonder if his mind weren’t already back in Ballito Bay soaking up his memoirs and watching the cash roll in? Or was he also on the betting syndicates take?
November 30th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
@cab: are you actually saying that our dominant scrum was a negative….really cab?
Cmon ….you not stupid my man?
Would you seriously have Smit back at 3???
Crazy and insane…in fact…thats the last for me on the subject….i simply find it silly to discuss what is so patently obvious….
Cheers
November 30th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
@bananas: WOW Bananas, aren’t you a ray of sunshine. First post and its attacking somebody else. We haven’t even heard your comments about this weekends test match or your thoughts on the tour as a whole.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
what the hell did Burger do wrong, apart from score our only trying and tackle like a trojan the hwole night?
November 30th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
@NZINCHINA:
It’s good to have you back, mate. Congratulations on one of the most complete displays of rugby pulled off by the All Blacks I’ve seen this year.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): the 9 and 10 were poor…i wouldnt drop them….yet.
Smit may still retire….i dont buy into we lose if he doesent play ****….we lost with him ….twice…in last 3 weeks!
Now really late
Cheers!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
@WP Till I Die: LOL@WP Are you being sarcatic? That should read “Congratulations on the ONLY display of complete rugby pulled off by the All Blacks I’ve seen this year”
Bad year for the men in black. They were a due a good one
November 30th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
@cab: Burger should have taken the panalties
November 30th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
I dont agree with Keo at all about being World Chumps -they are definitely still world champs, they have proved it and had an excellent year. I think he is being far to harsh & critical!!! I tend to agree with Tim Noakes about the need to rest the players, so before they even went on this tour i thought it was one thing too many. It is never nive to lose, but i think all things considered i am ok with it and looking forward to next year!!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
@skopskiet:
It’s usually not one of the front row deciding what the backline does.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
@Richie_7:
haha…sounds like it.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
@fish out of water:
Hahaha
When did we EVER consistently beat the likes of AUS, NZ and France??
We haven’t beaten France away since 1997 so to say the Boks are overrated is just plain ridiculous.
When we won the Tri Nations in 1998 we won all our matches but we basically just scraped through!!
Jake White’s record against France, NZ, Ireland and AUS is pretty much inferior to PDV!!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
O M G !
I want proof.
send me certified copies of his Passport.
I want DNA samples, birth certificates, utility bills and drivers licences.
I want verification of his 1st born, I want closer scrutiny of ballot-box voting history.
Keo – Im on to you, Youre no Safa !!!
this ‘author’ is, surely, a ghost-writer.
Far too much truth. Bucketloads of reality. And what appears to be TWO functioning EYES !
Im simply not falling for that trick. No way.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
@WP Till I Die:
Ha ha couldn’t show my face around here mid year for obvious reasons, cheers was a good game, that doesn’t change the fact that the Bokke were the champion side this year and played winning rugby very impressive.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
@Richie_7: Not quite chap I only logged on this morning and have posted on other threads and congratulated Ireland on out thinking and out muscling the Boks. Congrats to the ABs as well.
However I do take exception to NZChina Tackler and poppa69 gloating over a Bok loss. I dont think you will find the saffas doing that on silverfern web site after an AB loss.If its a Bok/AB game then great but when its against another nation it comes off cheap.
The Bok tour was a mess,not time to slit the wrists but some major reassesment of our coaching staff needs to be done as well as player selection.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
@NZINCHINA: Clever reposte there NZ ! As the better man I take back my harsh words of earlier, maybe too prickly today.
However I will go fark mayself!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
@NZINCHINA:
Now we just need BlackPanther back, and things will be back to normal!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
@bananas:
Don’t take exception its an internet forum not a church meeting.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
dont forget capn fanny, he normally pokes his cheeky head above the parapet after a bok loss or two…never has such a great exponent of hit+run been seen on a blog site…fanny normally drops of a couple of tasty paragraphs late at night just before bedding downunder into hibernation pleased with himself…
November 30th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Yeah , things like this only happens in South Africa.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Does anyone actually take Mark Keohane seriously anymore? Difficult to respect anyone’s opinion, when its clear they’ve sold their journalistic integrity.
A few disclosures on your part might help to rehabilitate your reputation Keo.
For instance, you can’t really criticise John Robbie for being positive on SuperSport when that’s the relationship you tried to cultivate between them an SA Rugby when you were with the Boks.
It’s interesting that Gert Smal is now a coaching genius. This would be the same Gert Smal who coached the forwards in the 1997 defeat to the Lions, and the same person who coached the forwards under Rudolph Straeuli, when they regularly got eaten-up by the England pack.
You’re a joke! Time to take a look in the mirror…once you pull your head (and probably a few more Rand) out of Jake White’s back-side.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
@cab:
Has he not been around after a loss or 4?
November 30th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Jake also took a bunch of greenhorns on his first EOYT in 2004.
Bryan Habana, Tim Dlulane, Jongi Nokwe!!!
And none of them had played S14 rugby at that stage!!!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
@NZINCHINA:
hehe,,,yeah i saw some of his work the other night, one could almost sense those cocky tail feathers unfurling,,,and just nefore i could take aim, he was gone in a puff of smoke.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:33 pm
its not Grant calling for heads to roll its me I say drop the prima donna’s till they realize what true teamwork and commitment means just like Ab’s showed. They got far too big for their overrated boots especially the senior status Blou Bul quo and herr kapitan. And stop whining about fatigue and all sorts of other side wind issue ****. Problem is in their overrated incapacitated heads to beast to running game when its required, not in their tiring brains.
I thought Smit was the captain the one that changes game plan when things don’t pan out. And Matfield wtf was he thinking or where was he all game long. Burger did fine, so did Brussow, Roussouw should have been at 4 first half not 8. Schalk should have been at 8. Deysel should have been at 7. But main unmitigating failure was Fdp and M. Steyn thats where we lost our oats nowhere else.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
beast – adapt
November 30th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
herr kapitan sounds german, i thought smit was a soutie, look unfortuntely you gus dont like the players from teh bulls and sharks cos you support the WP.
the WP play some lovely rugby, bless their little socks, but the last time they won anything was when the dodo went extinct.
they dont win the colliusions you see. trying to explain that to a WP-supporter is an absolurtely lost cause, whuch is why poor rassie is fighting a losing battle. unless they see loosefotwards doing backflip opasses, and locks who can pirouette – there;s no razmataaz.
the old bokke are too passe in their eyes, even tho they get moered by these ou dooose every time.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
@crazy ******: Post of the day! Nice one.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
@PissAnt:
that is not entirely true.
The Bulls S14 side played possibly the most dynamic brand of rugby a south african side has ever played….and yet the test side played pretty conservatively just a few weeks later.
i do not believe that there is any right or wrong way of playing the game. The 2 most important issues are always…
1. winning
2. variation
….the Boks displayed neither on this tour.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
@skopskiet: Skoppie, Carol showed me a picture of you yesterday, saw some photos of her visit to Cape Town….lok of lelike manne there, she should have spent more time in Natal
November 30th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
we can only hope that our senior Bok stalwarts are emotionally mature, astute and ambitious enough to analize their recent performances, make the needed improvements and adjustments and get back to wanting to win.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
@skopskiet: All true, but no need to drop anyone. Except maybe Burger. When viewing the year as a whole the stand-out performers are the same guys you want to drop.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl:
PDV is on record saying he is moulding the Boks game plan around the Bulls recipe for success.
And also don’t get me wrong, the game plan in itself is low risk and produces results more often than not if executed correctly.
What did not happen on this tour is our execution lacked in all major areas of this game plan but what I was eluding to more with my post, is that when that failed or we had to call up on a plan B, none was existant.
That is my biggest concern, and explains my thinking behind 22-man rugby and using your bench effectively.
Impact players from the bench should do exactly what it their name says, make an impact, either to shift momentum from the oppo to their own team (change of plan and tactics) or kill off the opposition.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Everyone knows this tour was always only going to be about the Barbarians game. And boy, are we ever going to klap them…
November 30th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
@ grant and loser skoppie. Grant10 says the following: “I am convinced at least 2 of that pack today not gonna be at wc 2011….Smit and Matfield…..
seriously, we need to rebuild.”
Rebuild what? We’ve just had the best year in years?
November 30th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
@PissAnt:
I agree with all of that but my comment was withregards to an earlier post of yours where you asked how can a Bok side be asked to play attacking rugby when all the provincial setups are playing negatively.
I don’t believe that to always be the case.
Anyone could see that by the final whistle of the currie cup the Bulls where holding on for dear life and looked completely knackered….as were the the Sharks just a week before that.
And then, just 6 days later the mid-week side played a game.
And DeVilliers selects Ralapelle as the Captain who was injured for the final?
And then he get’s injured after 20 minutes….ot the sharpest tool in the box it would appear.
DeVilliers is definately n
November 30th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
@crazy ******: This is why i referred to Mark Keohane as journalistic s!ut in an earlier post. The guy cruises with the highest bidder @ the boudoir.
Why results matter
This entry was posted on Thursday, November 30th, 2006
Keo, in his News 24 column, writes that if Jake White has to pay R350 to watch the Boks lose every Saturday he’ll also start believing test results are important.
If five wins out of 12 is acceptable fare for the Springboks then don’t waste your time on a World Cup ticket in 2007.
Jake White has told us not to judge him on five wins out of 12, but on what his strongest team could do at the World Cup – the kind of team that has beaten the All Blacks in the past few years, but also that team that lost in Dublin to Ireland and at Twickenham to England.
For the moment, let’s forget about the losses and concentrate on the wins, even if they haven’t been that many.
And let’s look at who achieved our famous wins for the Bok coach.
The Boks, if they put together their strongest team, can beat anyone on their day. How often have I heard this in the past 12 months? Hell, I’ve even said it myself on more than 10 occasions.
But will the Boks ever put out their strongest team? And does such a thing actually exist?
The Bok coach has said often this year that the ideal match 22 he has in his mind has (in 37 tests) never played. That could be because they’re all New Zealanders, but we’ll give Jake the benefit on this one and actually believe they are all South Africans.
Then, what is the best XV? Is it an ageing Percy Montgomery or a youthful Francois Steyn? Schalk Burger, Juan Smith, Danie Rossouw, Pierre Spies, Kabamba Floors and Pedrie Wannenburg don’t go into three. It can only be one of Ricky Januarie or Fourie du Preez at scrumhalf … the best to beat Ireland is perhaps a different best to beat New Zealand.
You need bulk to batter the Kiwis, but more mobility to see off the Wallabies. Which is better and what makes one player better than the other? One’s skill could be potent in a particular game plan and not a factor when played in a different combination.
It is fantastic to develop depth and to have two or more players to cover every position. But the moment a team reaches that level, what they gain in quality they lose in talk of a best team. The latter term then no longer exists because you can only play 15 at one time.
So when Jake White says his best team can beat the All Blacks and whoever else at the World Cup and win it, who is this best team he has developed over three years?
You’d have to say Steyn has overtaken Montgomery, even if White won’t be as quick to agree with you. You’d have to say Bryan Habana’s shares have dropped, even if White won’t agree with you. You could argue a place has to be made for Wynand Olivier and that Jaque Fourie and Jean de Villiers aren’t as good as we’d like to think. Of the flyhalves Andre Pretorius rose from the dead at Twickenham, but only next year will tell us if the life in his international career has 12 months or more. Can Butch James’s knees take another year and will Meyer Bosman come good?
At scrumhalf there’s Ruan Pienaar, Januarie and Du Preez. Who do you play against whom?
The loosies number 10, but only three can start. We know who the locks will be, we know who the hooker will be if White takes the team to the World Cup and we know who the loosehead prop will be, even though White keeps on bemoaning Gurthro Steenkamp’s absence. If he can breathe, Os du Randt will be there.
Given this little exercise you can’t say with any certainty after three years of White’s coaching which is the best 15 out of the 64 players he has used.
And I seriously doubt White can tell us who they are either.
This brings me back to results and the need to win more than you lose every Saturday during the test match season.
White has to be judged on the team he picks every test and on the subsequent results. If we do that we are dealing in tangibles.
If we start buying into the ‘judge me at the World Cup’ and ‘when I pick my ideal team’ then we may as well stop keeping score on a Saturday and all sign up for the fantasy league.
And if we do that then SARU may as well stop charging outrageous cash for test match tickets.
Professional coaches are well paid to do a job and that job is about each Saturday and not 44 supposedly meaningless tests between World Cups; tests that cost the punter more than R350 a pop.
Sorry Jake, but you have to be judged on a 59 percent win record in the last three years. No more and no less.
If SARU’s bosses believe that is acceptable, then you should stay. If not, then get in the queue for a World Cup ticket and you’ll soon start seeing that when you are paying every test result does actually count. When you’re cashing big dollars to watch a team, you are entitled to performance and not four year promises from coaches.
I’ve said it often: the World Cup has become a four year excuse for the majority of the game’s coaches. The World Cup should be a bonus to winning more test matches in four years than you actually lose.
This entry was posted on Thursday, November 30th, 2006 at 6:00 am and
November 30th, 2009 at 3:59 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR):
….you can’t rebuiled a side in 18 months or so.
I’d be interest to know exactly how many more test matches there are before the world cup starts.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
@WP Till I Die: black panther is wakanathan….apparently!
November 30th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
@Transformation: Who the fck reads a thesis like that here on keo?
November 30th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR): @218
ah yes, Mr Chirpy himself.
Seems to have quietened down sowehwat over the past few months, Ratel.
The mocking seems to have stopped. What, noone reaching the Ratel ‘Poo Monitor’ ?
What an opportunistic disrespectful piece of petri-dish mould you are.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl:
If I used the word negative rugby then it was not my intention.
There are two main types of rugby that exists for me, one where you build pace on the ball and play a dynamic type of rugby, and one where you play a static (point to point) type of rugby.
Both types are effective, as the Boks and NZ success in the last 4 years have showed. The ideal is of course to marry the two somewhere along the line and play what the situation demands, and in that respect NZ have the advantage because of the mecurial Dan Carter who can be both brilliant on front foot ball as well as hanging back and playing the tactical game.
IN SA, the Bulls do not marry the two and static rugby does not mean you do not score tries, it just means you score them differently and through a different type of build up.
But it is not only the BUlls, all our top rugby unions dont, Sharks dont either and failed dismally when they tried, Cheetahs and Lions possibly gets closest to this but they are overpowered by the more structured, static approach to the game.
Whichever way you adopt however, it means little if you do not execute the basics correctly, and this is mainly where we failed as Boks.
Peter summed it up nicely saying they were a second or so off the pace of the opposition, and that is all you need to fluff it up, because a second off the pace is a second you rob yourself of in executing plays, and at test level, you cannot afford to lose even just a second.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
On news 24.
“Next year’s Test between France and South Africa, scheduled initially for June 12 in Cape Town as part of a French tour, will not take place in South Africa and could be moved to Europe, an informed source said on Sunday.
SARU will be unable to host the match at the appointed time as the 2010 Soccer World Cup will be under way by then from June 11.
The source indicated that Wembley Stadium was a possible choice of venue.”
Some peoples’ wishes will come true earlier than they may have ever dreamt of. The Boks touring Europe early in our season playing France. This time at a neutral venue.
Time to start thinking of new excuses in case the Boks lose.
“Fatigue”, “meaningless EOYT”, “long season”, “Ras Dumisane” etc just won’t cut it.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
@katman: those who don’t suffer from ADD…
November 30th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Same with heinie adams and francois hougaard, hougaard was on the bench for the mid-week game, but look who has the test cap????
November 30th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Talk on this forum at the beginning of the year by the anti-PdV brigade was that the senior BB players (VM, Bakkies,FdP) will quit the game or go overseas if they win the B&I Lions series because they would then have achieved all there is to achieve in rugby.
CC win.
WC win.
S14 win
3Nations win
This, according to some bloggers, would then “expose PdV for the **** coach that he is” as he would not be able to rely on them (the senior players) to do his job in coaching the team.
I see that FdP already indicated that he will not retire because of the “wonderful atmosphere” set by the Bok management team. I wonder if anybody can enlighten me what the position of the other two is at this stage.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
@katman: I do. It’s evidence of what a fraud Keo is. Kissing Jake’s *** must be very lucrative for Keo indeed.
November 30th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
@WakaNathan: Are you black panther?
November 30th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
NONSENSE
NONSENSE
NONSENSE
WE HAD MANY FRESH PLAYERS WAITING FOR THE CHANCE TO SHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Francois Hougaard, Meyer Bosman, Earl Rose, Davon Raubenheimer, Ash Johnson.
Had these young hungry men been given their time they would have swept away the Irish like a Karoo thunderstorm in November.
And get off Oom PDV’s back. He is the best coach our country has ever had. The players cost us the game and nobody else.
November 30th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
@omanishark: the one thing that keo and his latter day delusional disciples won’t ever, ever admit is that pdv was right. Even the best south africa has to offer ie fourie du preez, is a “robot”, a functional robot when the whole army of robots are insync, but when one of those robots short circuits ie victor matfield, all the other robots can not automatically over-ride the system and adopt to the new environment. Hence the calls to re-hire the original designer of the software or micro-chip.
The fdp “robot” comes with an attached label “no modifications allowed” hence in 2008 the “robot” was flashing the warning sign “don’t know new ELV software, don’t like using it” – remember in cape town when it kept box-kicking out on the full and was devoid of any alternative ideas?
November 30th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Jake strutted into Dublin the game before this one bragging that not more than 3 Paddies would make it to his Bok team squad. Then the quiet, polite Irishmen whacked them. As they whacked them the time before that.
It’s not fatigue than undoes the Boks. It’s arrogance.
Fatigue is a myth. Look at how razzle-dazzlingly fresh NZ performed after just as arduous a season as the Boks. They scored 5 tries and ripped France to shreds in their Marseilles fortress. Time to jump off Noaksie’s old hobby-horse.
November 30th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
@TheTackler: But you see sir. Thats not true. The Bokke are the most humble players in the world after the Argentianians. You can never see the Bokke being nasty. Even the coach. Ol Jake maybe said those naughty things but not our PDv. our PDv is too much of a great man to do that sort of thing.
We respected the Irish.
But we should have had fresher younger fitter players there to be a substitute after 60 minutes you check ?
November 30th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
If at the beginning of the year you had asked me if i would except losing to France and Ireland away if we won 3N and BIL tests I would not have even thought twice about it. Just winning the game against the Lions and AB means nothing ALONG AS YOU WIN!
This is a fact a lot of you are missing when QQing about how kuk we played over here (believe me i know i was at the SA vs SA game at Wembley).
Its all about winning the big matches and trophies and we seem to be doing ok in that. I know this because I support the Proteas and being no1 mean sweet f all when you aint won the world cup, ICC trophy or 20/20. Dont get me started on the Sharks, at least they won the CC last year!
November 30th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
A brilliant article by Keo. Let’s put one thing into perspective here, for all those who keep nay-saying the influence and rugby acumen of Jake White. Jake took a team in disaster and disarray, after Rudolf Straeuli and the shambles of 2003 – and made them RWC champions 4 years later. JAKE actually BUILT the team from ’scratch’ as it were. Winning the Tri-Nations in his first year too… Mission accomplished!
The useless, papsak-inebriated, incompetent, AA-appointed, bird-brain we have masquerading as a rugby coach INHERITED a RWC chapion team. And then proceeded to dismantle it into chumps just 8 months later – coming LAST in the Tri-Nations of 2008 (Duhh-Uhh – well done papsak!). And almost single-handedly derailing a team in 2009, which should be sweeping all before it with relative ease, with his absurd, quota-driven, team selections and, even worse, his on-field substitutions and timing there-of. THAT IS WHY KEO KEEPS REFERING TO JAKE WHITE. We’ve gone from having a coach with a very astute rugby brain – to a piece of rubbish…
Papsak is beyond stupid. But then – what does one expect of any quota appointment…??? Gary Gold too – where does he come from?? Who the heck is Gary Gold?? I said it years ago at the Stormers – I say it again now – Gary Gold is a useless ignoramus. Obviously he’s giving someone good head to keep his job…and happily “passing go” and collecting his money…
The selectors and coaching staff CANNOT use “fatigue” as an excuse. THEY selected them!! Or – did they GENUINELY not think the players are fatigued?? If so – then OMG – how UNBELIEVABLY STUPID and rugby-ignorant is that!!??? Oh yes – the players are fatigued – I, personally, warned against taking the run-on Tri-Nations pack to Europe as long ago as August – it’s not ‘rocket-science’ – and it’s something EXPERTS like Prof Noakes have been warning about for ages – the need for 8 to 10 weeks consistent rest to get over physical AND mental fatigue. Basic rugby understanding. No-one listened – so THEY must fall on their collective swords…
Alas – the useless free-riders wont…
Keo, however, is wrong though when he compares our first choice team and the amount of rugby played, with that of NZ. Firstly – we played the Lions in June – a far tougher schedule than what the AB’s had. Secondly – the NZ NPC (or whatever they call it now) is nowhere near as tough/hard/competitive as the Currie Cup.
AND – crucially – the AB’s are ALL selected on merit. They don’t have to accommodate quotas. That’s a problem unique to SA. All other teams can select their best squads – we have to accommodate useless non-white players to make-up the numbers – while better white players who would get the job done – stay at home. FACT. Not very PC of me, is it – BUT it’s the ‘bare-knuckle’ TRUTH.
We have fantastic players available (I’m talking about genuine merit selections, of course) to the Springboks (I INCLUDE those based in Europe) – with the most useless, inept, coaching staff ever. Even more useless than Rudolf Straeuli… But we all know why Jake had to go – and the useless, incompetent, papsak appointed. AA at its best (ie worst!)… LOL!
November 30th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
@Nick Armstrong: hey @*******, point out the non-merit selections in this team!
Springboks – 15 Zane Kirchner, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Jaque Fourie, 12 Wynand Olivier, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morne Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez, 8 Danie Rossouw, 7 Schalk Burger, 6 Heinrich Brussow, 5 Victor Matfield, 4 Bakkies Botha, 3 BJ Botha, 2 John Smit (c), 1 Beast Mtawarira.
Subs: 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 CJ van der Linde, 18 Andries Bekker, 19 Jean Deysel, 20 Dewald Potgieter, 21 Ruan Pienaar, 22 Jean de Villiers.
November 30th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
@Transformation: i dont know where u ind this stuff from the archives but it obviously shows how much of a twat and sell-out Keo is
if it wasnt for some of you bloggers we’d never get the truth out
November 30th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
@Nick Armstrong: @237
Im intrigued. On what basis have you come to the widely held assumption that an injury-hit and talent-deficient Lions team (the weakest on paper in memory) were “far tougher” than a series against France ?
November 30th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
@omanishark: yeah but heini adams got injured dude
met him on sunday at petrol station
he had a cast on his leg
he would’ve been 1st in line for bench as he outplayed hougaard in sarries game and helps to fulfill the political mindfield
why the ones who love to talk abt quotas and political window dressing dont hamper on the fact that this scrummie-***-centre-***-wing-***-”out of his depth at international level” player..ASTOUNDS ME!!
November 30th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
@Nick Armstrong:
another of these whiter than white inebriated self ordained pieces of **** masquerading as evolved intelligence. why don’t you colonialists just f’ck right off to where you belong, or where the hell you think you hail from schmuck *** ********.
Oh and take your glory seeking hero with you, somehow he just don’t fit the Bill.
November 30th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
@metalheart: oh yes
ur point is so valid abt the proteas
what is the point of being ranked number 1 with no medals or trophies to show for it
at the end of the day we won the games that counted
November 30th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
keo and his pdv- bashing brigade should make up their minds what they want out of life!firstly they stood on top of table mountain,drakensberge and whatever other mountains and deplored the fact that pdv tried to let the boks play a more expansive game,pdv relented and allowed the boks to revert back to this **** and bull rugby of kicking the leather of the ball.now that this strategy back-fired badly keo wants jake white to be pdv’s saviour now.this must be the biggest joke of the year and clearly shows how delusional mark keohane has become or how far he has crept up jake white’s arse.jeez,running rugby might not always work out but at least i give graham henry credit for trying something different and not to make a mockery of the game we all love so much.keohane took delight in the fact that the senior players decided to revert back to this kicking game and basically went against pdv.who are you blaming now keohane for this kicking game that finally bombed in our faces?keohane you are a disgrace to sa rugby and thankfully you have no official involvement in it anymore!
November 30th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
HOW CAN I LET MY SON USE THIS SITE WITH SO MANY BAD LANGUAGE BEING USED ? Its a shame for young rugby lovers .
November 30th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
@Valkyrie: u okes Kill me
ROFLMAO
“keohane you are a disgrace to sa rugby and thankfully you have no official involvement in it anymore!”
Still ROFLMAO
November 30th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
@rugbygenius: sometimes okes get ahead of themselves and forget who else comes on this website..but you’re right
guys CUT THE **** AND MIND YOUR LANGUAGE!
generally the LESS ARTICULATE resort to CUSSING
November 30th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
PA – Would have been interesting if PDV left the Boks who did 3N dutie at home, except JFourie as he didn’t play CC, and the Bok bench and selected all the Boks playing in Europe plus all the 2nd stringers from home!
We may have been surprised to see some good Bok rugby. Now we sit with some exhausted players and terrible results! And question marks over who our 2nd best players are?
It was abvious that the Boks with BJ and CJ are much better, especially with JSmit at hooker, very powerful front row!!
PDV lost an oppurtunity to blood some new players. I like what i see now in Kirchner, not a bad player at all. It was abvious that Ruan Pienaar is a better attacking flyhalf than Morne Steyn and Du Preez’s kicking game was shown up in Europe.
November 30th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
@Papoose: Thank you Papoose for saying this. I like my son to check what other wise rugby people are saying but I can’t let him come here when people are using the bad words. So thank you for that sir.
November 30th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Papoose: hey Papoose…i know bra, i reckon he thinks we’re all stupid and have no memories.
check this out…
Jake’s joker 6, 7 and 8 cards
Coach Jake White’s refusal to acknowledge the relevance of a specialist open-side flanker in the northern hemisphere has proved disastrous for the Springboks.
Match statistics from the defeats against Ireland and England are alarmingly weighted in the favour of the hosts and shows up the folly of White’s insistence that an open-sider is not a necessity in test rugby.
In the two tests the Boks battled for ball to such an extent that Ireland and England made 321 passes to South Africa’s 151. The Boks made almost double the amount of tackles, 187 to 100, while the ruck and pass domination was a staggering 120 to 46 to the home teams.
The most damning statistic that shows up the lack of impact White’s loose-trio has had in the two test matches is that the Boks won 18 turnovers to the 17 of Ireland and England’s. It is damning because the Boks, by virtue of Ireland and England’s dominance of the ball, had nearly three times the breakdowns to contest. Ireland and England took the ball into the contest 138 times and the Boks won it back on 18 occasions. The Boks were the attackers at just 63 rucks and they lost it 17 times.
I spoke to several prominent coaches in South Africa and analysts and asked them for their interpretation of the breakdown statistics. All of them expressed a similar view that the Boks were unable to provide continuity because no openside flanker had been selected.
What compounded the situation was the absence of a mobile hooker.
The Boks were making double the amount of tackles because there was no one to turn over the opposition ball. Both Ireland and England were comfortable in retaining possession and recycling this possession. England made a mess of the possession, but alarmingly still comfortably took it through 10 and 20 phases on occasions. Ireland did the same, but the class of their back division and cohesion between the loose-forwards and halfbacks meant they easily broke down the Bok defence with 18 linebreaks.
White on this tour has opted for three loose-forwards capable of providing lineout options, but his search for a potent lineout has been at the expense of speed and accuracy in the support play. When the Boks did make a linebreak there was rarely one of the loose-forwards running on the inside shoulder of the linebreaker.
Against England it was at its worst when Akona Ndungane and Francois Steyn were both put into space and confronted with a one on one with Josh Lewsey. A traditional open-sider’s angle of run would have been on the inside shoulder of the player with ball in hand. It didn’t happen for the Boks because the national coach, unlike every other coach in the country (or for that matter the world), doesn’t see the value of picking one of his loose-forwards to do that function.
England’s public is not being fooled by the mediocrity of performance in winning for the first time in eight tests and the South African public should also not be fooled that the Bok defeat was more heroic than it was horrid.
With the right selections and strategy England should have been dismantled and Andy Robinson should be looking for a new job today. The Boks should also have won for the first time in 10 years.
Ireland, France, New Zealand and Argentina have all won at Twickenham in the last two years. The Boks have not.
White got his selection balance wrong, just like he did in Dublin and just like he did in 2004 against Ireland and England. Even in 2004, Schalk Burger was not a decisive factor in the northern hemisphere because he is not a natural open-sider.
Burger, at his peak, is a freak who is capable in this role in southern hemisphere conditions. Against Ireland and England in 2004 he looked lost and frustrated playing against specialist open-siders.
You would have thought the lessons would have been learned two years ago. They haven’t because White did not believe there was a lesson taught. The coach stubbornly believes in picking tall loose-forwards, but all that the last two tests have shown is that the only thing we can learn from this history is that White has learned nothing.
The additional lineout options have won the Boks four against the throw on this tour and they’ve also lost four against the throw. They’ve scored a try from one against the throw and they’ve also conceded a try from one against the throw.
White continues to believe his philosophy is right and every critic and South African coach who thinks otherwise is wrong.
What White can’t argue with is a record that reads played 12 overseas against New Zealand, Australia, England, France and Ireland and lost 11.
In the Northern Hemisphere White has played Ireland twice, England twice and France once and every time he has done the same thing and got the same result – a defeat.
Now he has introduced Kabamba Floors into the mix – a month after saying the player simply did not fit into the Boks’ playing style? It makes no sense, unless there is an acknowledgement that if Floors plays, he does so as an open-sider.
It is fantastic that Floors has been called up, but it does make a mockery of White’s mantra that he could not fly Luke Watson to New Zealand earlier this year because the player would not have enough time to learn the team playing systems.
Floors will have one training run with the team at Wasps on Tuesday morning, but White has already confirmed he will be in the match 22.
Don’t ask where the logic is in that because logic is not something you’d associate with Bok selections.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, November 21st, 2006 at 12:21 am
November 30th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
@Papoose: yes i am glad that he has no official involvement in sa rugby.is that your gripe wih me?you are entitled to your opinion and i respect that so let others have theirs please.
November 30th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Good article but still not touching all the nerves.
The last sport where SA is/was doing well is sinking. Look what happened to tennis, athletics, Netball, soccer and the list goes on. Come to think of it, fatigue must have played a role as well or was it apartheid?
The Proteas might not be that tired, but they sure are looking like a team that plays in the hands of the bookies.
South Africa has all the talent, irrespective of race, ***, religious believes and whatever….
The politicised, corrupt untouchable sport administrators true to the Africa history fact book, is the root cause of the state that our sport is in.
Some sponsors also need to be looked at. The benefits coming there way might be very interesting.
You can blame apartheid, fatigue, politics, colonialism, ignorance but South Africa is just becoming what it really is, just another Africa country…
November 30th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
@crowbar: well,when i last looked on the map of africa south africa was just another african country together with the other 50 odd countries.if i can recall we used to be the pariah of the world so ‘just another african country’ is actually an improvement,don’t you think.
November 30th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Didnt that useless JW team beat England 36-0 in WC and then again in the final? Win the War not the battle dont worry about the slip ups along the war, we are world champions and I love reminding everyone in England we cant lose it till 2011
November 30th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
am sure keo has it wrong on the number of games played by the all blacks.
according to re-union, all black top players did not play for 6 weeks before the eoyt.
the way they played against france on saturday reminded me of vintage all black play from the pre-elv’s days.
add to that, france went out to play attacking rugby.
result was a terrific game and a great advert for union.
November 30th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Eish it sounds like KEO is having a period…
what a load of Hypocritical drivel
November 30th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
@Valkyrie: No. Just to be another Africa country is not an improvement, we can be the best, yes, we used to be the pariah of the world, then things changed and we were admired by all, everything now is fine, losing is fine, bad administrators are fine?
Just to be part of something is not enough….
November 30th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
@Valkyrie: we used to be the pariah because the western world likes to deflect its guilt somewhere and what better place than on white and coloured south africans.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
we used to be the pariah cos we were racist and deservedly made the pariah.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
@cab: what about all the other African governments who rape and pillage their poor people e.g the genocide in burundi, the genocide in DRC?
November 30th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
@byoboy:
are they also not criticised when doing such things?
many of those countries got no govt, our lot ingrained racism in its laws.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
@cab: @byoboy: wat about the british governments imperialistic suppression of the worlds poor nations and their raping of Ireland , then they try judge South African people , how dare they.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
@cab: oh its not like the zim government is not racist is it??
November 30th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
Keo, always so negative and such a critic. To hint that we beat new zealand bacause of their play is pathetic. We played our game plan to perfection and thats why we won. I personally hope all teams stop interviews with this site. Although by the looks of supersport and rugby365 they already have started avoiding you critics
November 30th, 2009 at 8:40 pm
@byoboy:
british imperialism was nearly a century before apartheid and is widely criticised. the western world also criticises zim.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
well I reckon it comes down to a very simple choice, thats if people round these parts believe they have any choice at all.
Realize once and for all that all those of European ancestry are simply not native to this continent so either accept that you here as non indigenous visitors who came here largely as a result of your own home country not being overly maternal towards your aspirations or else you came here for more opportunistic and rapacious intent.
Realize that this is indeed Africa and not a far flung colony of some tentacle of European civilization or control. All those honestly believing that they are indeed South African in birth and upbringing they better discard any remote notion of European superior ideological attachment because to all accounts such superior attributed ill breeding is about to get washed right out the repugnant racially charged door.
If you still see yourself as seperate or superior I make one sincere suggestion in your direction, get the hell outa here, you ain’t ever going to fit, Africa and colonialism is now passe, its klaar, its over, so if you aint able to mingle get the f’ak outa here before you get swallowed and spat out whole.
November 30th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Is this a rugby website or what? WTC is all this political talk for
November 30th, 2009 at 9:03 pm
@cab:ja what about the current xenapohobic behavior of british folk towards foreigners such as the Polish and their racism towards people from Pakistan – people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. why is the zim govt not treated like the previous South African government, it seems like there are a lot of double standards does the fact that a majority elected govt murders its own people not as bad?
November 30th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
the british imperialists are quick to judge others yet they must learn to look at the log in their own eye before they look to the speck in their brothers eye. I have said my bit, outta here.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
is basically because rugby and politics in this country come hand in glove, peas in a pod, you simply don’t get one without the other. Unless you really are totally and absolutely essentially and impeccably colour blind in absolute terms. Then you don’t get affected by any of it any which way in the slightest. Then you truly are purely a rugby fundi and sport lover and don’t give two half hoot’s what damn shade of grey any body’s chromatic scale of dermetological hue happens to be.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Ja not sure what all this political **** is about but hey…
The Boks have some serious shortcomings that need to be addressed. To win 3N as well as a rare NZ victory and then get pomped by two club teams is highly embarrasing.
What’s even more embarrasing is that this seems to be a continuing trend in the Springbok camp. It started with the 53-3 thumping by England, then moved onto 49-0 by Australia, then 19-0 by New Zealand (at home!) and now… beaten by club teams?
I would not even contemplate entertaining the excuse that they were a “B team”. That is utter **** – there are simply no excuses for the No 2 team in the world to be losing to club teams, none at all.
As much as it pains me to say it, New Zealand are simply the best team in the world and have never ever let their standards slip. New Zealand never loses by xx-0 margin and they certainly never lose to club teams. They win consistently – look at how long they have been the number 1 ranked team. Anyone who tries to claim that another team is better than them is only bullsh!tting themselves.
I do not know what the future holds for the Springboks but I can’t say that I’m optimistic. Winning a 3N once every 5 years and then getting hammered in the years between is not what I expect from them.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
@byoboy:
the zim govt is treated as exactly the same pariah.
look it really boils down to whether you are willing to accept that South Africa has a history of racism and that that is a bad thing.
if on the other hand you want to rationalise it or look at other countries, sure we can review their atrociticies as well.
guess it really depends on what you feel is fair or not, but the older i get teh more i realise it probably does not mean a damn in any case.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Yeah Bok’s are overrated, no two ways about it. When we get past this insular day dreaming illusion about how fantastic we think we are we might start along the road to becoming vaguely like the real top rugby playing country we like to believe we are or as we were once upon a time, then maybe we start the journey to recovering that true top rate status once again.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
@cab:
Racism is as old as father time Cabbie…
Difference is, in SA we tackle that problem head on while other countries hide behind it.
SA is far from perfect, but at least we acknowledged we have a problem and we are dealing with it.
In time, other countries will learn from us.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
@PissAnt:
yeah maybe, i dont mind the head on bit, just not sure thats really true, and ppl hide behind it and indeed use it in SA for all sorts of reasons…but sure i may well be wrong.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Its going to be interesting next year, wonder what game plan the boks are going to play next year as the kick n chase plan is obviously not working as well without Jdv n Mossie in the midfiled. Run at all cost hasnt been succesfull before for the boks so its going to be interesting.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
@Transformation: #250
“When the Boks did make a linebreak there was rarely one of the loose-forwards running on the inside shoulder of the linebreaker.”
When ADI made line breaks he apparently ran away from his support runners. No talk of loose-forwards running on his inside shoulder then!
The hypocrisy is just mind blowing.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
@Papoose: hey Pap…this i Keo.co.za boet “an independent look at south african rugby & politics”
Look, when in the early 1980s the likes of the late Steve Tshwete & Rev Makhenkesi Stofile were lobbying, writing letters and making other such overtures to countries like New Zealand not to allow the Springboks to tour, the sport changed from just being a game where the most talented & best trained athletes must represent their country to being a political battle field.
And as long as some erroneosly harbour notions that only they should have some sort of hegemony over the sport, how it is played, coached, appreciated, markerted, commercialised etc, you will still have these scuffles in mzantsi afrika!
Believe That!
November 30th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
the issue of jacobs is an interesting one, and probably hints at my own racism, which i like to think i have none of, but i’d pick olivier over him every time. so perhaps its ingrained. perhaps its time for the new age running game to take us into the brave new world, perhaps it will be viljoen all over again.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:39 pm
i think I tend to agree with cab. I highly doubt anybody here or perhaps anywhere on the planet is free of racism. Obviously there are degrees and then degrees. Each individual being bred and nurtured along certain conditioned programming. Its simply better to recognize it for what it is but I sincerely wonder if anyone truly and honestly is ready and able to witness the subtle degrees of such programmed conditioning within their own mental make up. From whichever quarter it comes.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
@cab:
When I say head-on, I mean we deal with it, not always in the most productive manner, but it is discussed and debated and challenged – much more than what is happening in a lot of (1st world) countries around the world.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Politics and SA rugby go hand in hand, it will always be that way, i thought where have accepted that already and moved on. What impresses me about Pdivy is that his decisions are based on rugby only (well for the first team atleast) and i admire him for that.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
@byoboy: #258
“…the western world likes to deflect its guilt somewhere and what better place than on white and coloured south africans.”
What did them coloured do wrong to deserve the wrath of the west?
@byoboy: #263
Isn’t it why they currently are regarded as the “pariah of the world”
November 30th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
@skopskiet:
yes the question is whether to overcompensate for that conditioning and try and pick the black player every time even if he is weaker. cant blame the conditioning on my folks cos they were pretty much totally against racism, but almost certainly wathcing ppl clean up after you in menial jobs day in and day out has an unconscious effect.
who knows, who cares.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
@PissAnt:
i think that is true, we are too raw and blunt too really be that PC, which might be the saving grace. perhaps all these moral values count for nothing and we should just be selfish, survival of the fittest and f’ck the rest and all.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
yeah up the revolution out with the ou doose their time is passe fini time for the swashbuckling poetry of the artist and of panache in motion. Up with the progressive, down with the conservative. Get shot of the ou doose they killing our progress stone dead.
Ban kicking, make a penalty worth 1 point and a drop goal 2. Tries up to 6. Get the gdam game beautiful again. Lets get the poetry and artistry back into the sport and anyone slateing a player of color as a quota can go and support Sarries for a decade till they learn the true meaning of progressive transformation to inclusitivy away from dead end bigoted exclusivity.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
@cab: think thats called ethical egoism
November 30th, 2009 at 9:50 pm
yep i’m probably off to sarries.
enjoy.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
@nama1: ha ha ha ha nama1, mark keohane & his band of jake white praise singers probably think we have short memories boet! Hypocrisy on this site is a valuable currency! There was even a thread early this year titled ” fourie flounders as jacobs jols” where jaque fourie was implored to leave the lions as his career was stagnating while adi jacobs was flourishing @ the sharks and mossie will look @ his career & rue what could’ve been while adi will be smiling that he reached the height of his career.
Then enter jake white and his “winning ways” and the mercenary element inside these journalist awoke, next thing we heard that mossie’s integrity was @ stake and all such bluster…like i saud man, hypocrisy and double standards are rife in here boet.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
yeah f’ak the rest up the revolution. All white quotas go sign up at Blou Bulle or Sarries on the dotted line.
Bottom line there’s no perfection on this planet. Not white nor black or in between will ever be perfect so better get used to the idea of getting along cause the other option is simply beating about the same bush another 200 generations or more.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Just popping in chaps… Here is a quick one for those who seek some sort of justification for racism.. We naturally fear the unfamiliar but we do need to stoop to racism in the same way that *** is natural but this cannot justify rape.
The biggest problem with racism to society at large is that puts a cap on progress. The English premiership is probably the most diverse in terms of demographics. It is the best in the world without a doubt because no manager can afford to be racist. Competition is tough and prejudice is considered to be irrational. Irrational managers don’t make it in this environment.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
@Langenhoven: sorry lads but I emant to say that we DO NOT NEED to stoop to racism
November 30th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
@Langenhoven:
what do you think racism means?
if you were to select a Bok team on merit who would it be?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
Jeez my spelling and grammar is kak… but I am trying to give my kids attention while blogging
November 30th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
perhaps we’ll just sing them off the field from now on with our artistry.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
@skopskiet: #286
It will have to start way earlier, at schoolboy level I would suggest. Schoolboy rugby at even junior level are way too structured and do not allow for individual creativity. In other words, allowing a schoolboy to sum up a situation on the field and react accordingly. The first try by the AB’s on Saturday is a good example of what can happen if players are encouraged to think for themselves on the field of play. No way that SA will score a try like that if players are coached from an early age to kick the ball whenever you are in your 22m area/only play in your oppositions half, no matter what the situation on the field at that specific moment.
Knowing the fickle SA fans they will not take too kindly to the Boks losing matches while trying to alter a playing style that’s ingrained in them by coaches at school level. We saw this last year.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
oh please.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Racism is racism, what else can it possibly mean, selection or consciousness of peoples ethnic metabolism in determining their worth. What else would you possibly classify racism as?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:08 pm
@cab: Racism is about Deprivation and Degradation. Apartheid was about giving white people advantages as well as about giving them the confidence to succeed. Apartheid was also about destroying the confidence of black people and about making them feel worthless. We need to destroy the myth of white supremacy if we wish to succeed as a nation. It does not help when we continue with detruction of black confidence as is the case with white Journos like Mark Keohane.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
this tour just showed again that we need to develop our second stringers.not our third and fourth stringers.
how can a third hooker in at any province,not getting any game time be considered better than a first choice playing every weekend? its sad to think the eoy tour is a window dressing that keeps biting us in the ***,over and over again.
our so called elite players was so far away from this tour mentally,they might as well have stayed home.
something has to be done in the way that potential in a player is spotted.but we cant have players ending their careers even before it started just because he was wrongly selected,or not selected at the right time in his career.
what does a forward coach with the boks really do?when the back line is playing touch,is the forwards standing around dissing the passing game going around,or are they trying to come up with new ideas playing the same old structure?
where is all the intelligent rugby brains in this country?apart from the obvious bloggers here with their insight and understanding of the game
November 30th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
whats wrong with singing? You bigoted against singers now like Ras Dumisane, maybe they should send him to Robben Island for bringing our holy anthem into disrepute.
Everybody makes far too much about ethnicity. It starts one side and repercussively reacts to the other, then the pendulum swings too and fro between Jacobs and WO till maybe it settles somewhere in the middle in the far reaching empathy brought about through time. Just takes time thats all time for wounds and sensitivities and die hard attitudes to die out and heal.
Actually New Zealand is a very good model. Their levels of tolerance and abhorrence towards racism is quite uplifting though am sure like everywhere else its also far from perfect, relatively speaking of course.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
i would say racism is selecting ppl based on colour.
i would say racism is race reservation based on skin colour.
i would say racism is elevating a player who cannot make his S14 team into a Springbok team.
Now i may be wrong, and it might well be that Maku and Rallapelle are infinitely superior than the players they are picked behind at their relative provinces – and that these coaches and selectors and rugby establish is all inherently racist – but it might also be that they are simply not as good.
The issue of black consciousness is a big problem, apartheid was pure evil, but is the way forward to vere away from criticism at all costs, to steer away from the truth or even a consideration of it, if such reasoning is likely to damage black consciousness. Its not about consistency or rational thought, but rather choosing a cause.
Do we destroy the myth of white supremacy over the backs of players and ppl striving for their best and half-truths shouted louder than anyone else, where any dissenting view is shouted down. Is this artistry, is this progressive?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
@skopskiet:
yeah you got me in one, i’m bigoted against ram salami and singers in general.
heartless ******** should be put down, esp that one, god damn what a rendition.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
cab, hello. I’d like to find out from you kind sir if you have ever read anywhere on this site or any publication in fact, where it ws written that failure or non-performance of the springboks or selection of a **** white player should bring embarrasment to all white rugby players & fans in this country like keo is suggesting on this thread? When brian habana succeeds and equals records and becomes irb player of the year is he doing it for only coloured people’s glory & appreciation or is he doing it for every south african? Why should’nt keo himself or john smit be embarrassed when they see what keo refers to as window dressing?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
@Transformation:
we know each other pretty well, no need for the kind sir stuff, keo’s articles is bollocks, largely.
my issue is whether we shout for the black fella over the white, regardless of whether he is better or not, in the interests of black consciousness.
and whether all these progressives that lecture about getting along and all, are really willing to do so on fair amicable terms, or only they one;s they deem as such?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
when players do well its not because of their skin colour or racial back ground,its purely because they are talented and great at what they do.nothing more nothing less.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
i am afraid to say this side was not a merit selection as Oregan Hoskins would have us believe, now you you can try and sell that too ppl anyway you like and i will agree with you over apartheid and all sorts of other things that might go well beyond what you expect of me – but this is utter **** – its not a merit selection and everyone knows it, even those who benefit from it know it, but that is where it is being used unfairly.
Raubenheimer, my god man, with the flankers in SA?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
there is a very fine line between racial appointment which so many so called advanced fair astute and superior intelligent caucasian beings have deigned to grant the underdeveloped natives of the cursed multitude of heathen masses with their educated enlightened apologetic superiority, and true unbiased merit selection. So who gets to draw the line? Who gets to be the arbitrator or the judge of fair representation? Who gets to be the Solomon in the movie and sets discrimination aside whether it comes from the right or the left, from black or from white?
What makes Jacobs inferior to WO? Who makes that call? Which set of likes or dislikes, measures of quality being metered by which device of evaluation makes the judgment call?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Ok I am back… @toe-jam: How much a role does confidence play… ???
November 30th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Jacobs and WO is largely a set of personalal likes and dislikes, i would say. Maku/Rallapelle vs Liebenberg/Strauss is not, and neither is Raubenheimer vs Alberts/Vermeulen/Louw etc.
But the point conventiently being sidestepped, is that anyone raising the issue as to whether these ludicrous selections are made is labelled as bigotted.
not right and certainly not progressive or fair.
perhaps its artisitic, perhaps thats teh draw.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I’m yet to see or evaluate the qualities or attributes of Raubenheimer. Who is so emphatically certain that this player has not got the skill set to wear the hallowed green and gold jersey sound his quota tainted neck?
I mean is he absolutely and without a doubt inferior to say Deysel or Potgieter in a straight one on one shoot out. Yes or no? Or do you have statistical evaluation to consider your verdict absolutely and without any doubt before the facts are made manifest?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Racism is quite simple, its intolerance to difference. It doesnt matter what happens humans/animals will find the difference and rise against it. If the community is all white they will find the difference amongst themselves and fight it out, the boers the English, the Catholics the Protestants, united we are all white yet when the common enemy is gone we will turn on each other.
Zulu’s, Xhosa’s the same tune is sung. Get rid of the common enemy and watch the tribal lines get drawn deeper.
In South Africa we celebrate 11 official languages! There are too many cooks in this kitchen for us to ever get along, ever!
We learn it from a young age at school, we are grouped into houses at school, the red team the green team. The school across the way, they are our enemy, its everywhere.
The only way for black and white and coloured and Indian to ever get together and live in peace will mean that one or the other to compromise on their culture and identity and that will never happen
November 30th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
@cab: Raubenheimer had fantastic CC season… He has the athletic ability and seem to have a rugby brain.. YOu disregard all thosr games in the CC and rate him on two games where a dud TH fkup ahead of him in the scrum
FDP was light years behind Bolla Conradie when he started but we all need to be believe today that he was always great??
Earl Rose is without a doubt the greatest FH in the country.. even though he has to fight through the constant degradation and deprivation metted out to him by SA media and S14 coachs
November 30th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Raubenheimer has not played a single game of S14 rugby, we have had flankers who have excelled in the role – selecting for the national team is not based on does he have the necessary skill set including what colour he is – the question is simply who is the best in his position and then who is next best.
Now the coach can decide that and you can decide if raubenheimer is currently the next best blinsider in SA. I know what i think and its not based on skin colour.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
jacobs and wo are equally bad at inside centre,neither have shown that they can do it in that position internationally anyway…
a player can only be selected,and then he has to make or break the confidence shown by the coaching staff,but if its clear that a player is not apt for a position,should one keep believing they will come right or just cheer them anyway cause they playing for the boks?
its time we see the best players play,and if they dont perform,they cant be that good anyways
November 30th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
@Waz: Absolute Kak!! Its about deprivation and Degradation… It about placing barriers to progress.. Its about emotional rape… its about belittlement
November 30th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
@Langenhoven:
put down the assegai for a second, and think about what you are saying, think about the game of rugby too. what does a supposed f’cked up TH have to do with the selection of Raubenheimer?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
@Langenhoven: rose the best fh in the country?what planet you from?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
@cab: no need to shout any black fella up for the sake of what you refer to as “black conciousness”. Self esteem is something that should be fostered in an individual from an early age, it is often missed in black kids because of the structural conditions where some are brought up under eg look @ jongi nokwe, so much raw pace and everything but i can tell you now jongi is a punk! You look @ juan de jongh, now that kid has the attitude grab life & glory and make it his!
This cuts both ways cab, a guy like ruan pienaar for me has always been shouted unnecessarily and doesn’t warrant all the hype about him! Nick Koster is another example of a white player who was punted for no tangible reason, yet i’ve never heard you vociferously taking exception to the “shouting up” of these white players!
Either way if one grows up around excellence or someone encourages them to excell, it is bound will rub off on person, whether one chooses to be assertive and pursue their passions is a different story all on it’s own.
Yet, cab you can’t sit up there in France or wherever you might be and act like some of these rugby coaches in this country are free from prejudice!
November 30th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
@Langenhoven:
so when a player like raubenheimer is selected over vermeleun or alberts = who is belittled, who is degraded, where’s the progress and who is being emotionally raped?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
@cab: YOu presume that the S14 coaches are not all racist twats.. and fk we all know they are exactly that. They can be absolute kak and still retain their jobs because in SA rugby white is still right. Even PDV understands this. He know that he can fail with an almost white team and still retain his job
November 30th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
@Transformation:
i dont believe blacks are inferior to whites at all, quite the opposite, i believe juan de jong and mapoe are potentially fantastic talents, i think bryan habana is probably one of, if not, the best wings Springbok and world rugby have ever seen.
you are probably right, i can sit from anywhere and cast aspersions, but are you not doing exactly the same. i am not forcing my ideas on you or calling you a bigot, merely expressing my viewpoint.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
@Langenhoven:
So everyone in SA rugby is a racist twat?
Every white is a racist twat?
November 30th, 2009 at 10:55 pm
@cab: YOu presume that they are better because the S14 coaches chose them ahead of him.??.. as they do with all useless white players ..like all the twats in the Lions team. .Remember that The S14 coaches are racist twats who seek and destroy black talent… Its their nature
November 30th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
@cab: #305
“my issue is whether we shout for the black fella over the white, regardless of whether he is better or not, in the interests of black consciousness.”
There may be some truth in that but on the other hand, people would just like black players to be given an opportunity to prove themselves. I think most, if not all,”black supporters” on this site has called for opportunities to be given at provincial level. With provincial coaches not coming to the party, it is unfairly left to the national coach to call up players that do not play for their provinces on a regular basis. It is in my view understandable that “black supporters” will defend the player/s in question when he is attacked by people who want to down him. Especially when you don’t see them having a go at white players who are selected without being the no.1 at their province.
Same goes for criticism levelled at a black player who had a bad game while not much are said when certain white players play badly. This weekends’ performance by players like VM, FdP, MS is a good example. Just compare the criticism that were levelled at players like ADI, Ndungane, JPP, Kirchner during the year after a bad game with what is now said about the above mentioned players after this weekend. The difference is huge.
Until we as supporters criticise players fairly without provincial/racial bias, we will sit with the situation you described.
November 30th, 2009 at 10:56 pm
@Langenhoven: pdv can fail with any team and keep his job,after all,hoskins did admit that he wasn’t purely a rugby appointment
November 30th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
@cab: Every white person who presumes superiority because of his white skin is a racist twat.. Now how many S14 coaches deserve to be in their jobs… and why are they still there
November 30th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
@toe-jam: Like the s14 coaches??
November 30th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
what you really want the coach to do. Turn his back on his politically affiliated pay masters and tell them to go fly a frigin kite?
How much of a tight rope is anyone prepared to walk and make mistakes yet keep on tiptoeing through the political mine field tulips of SA rugby.
Its traditionally a white mans sport here whichever way we like to book and spin the candy floss. Coloured’s and blacks until Craven relaxed his stance on Errol Tobias because there simply wasn’t a better white fly half in the country at the time, were practically debarred from playing the game in the white mans circle or velodrome.
National coach has a mandate and a duty to ensure that some of that imbalance gets addressed, so what does he do, select Chili and Maku or ignor them like all the provincial and prior smoke screen white coaches have been doing?
Chili was earmarked already in Whites time as Smits successor, because he’s not lived up to his heralded potential is who’s fault? Maku on the other hand might very well have the makings of a viable international hooker.
Same goes for Adams, Johnson, Raubenheimer, Viljoen who’s white and Hargreaves who’s white too.
Coach earmarks and spots some potential he thinks is viable as future prospective bok talent its his prerogative to blood it and develop its possibilities. The problem on this tour wasn’t hardly the failure of the so called 3rd string quotas it was far more the failures of the 1st choice back up players and even front liners like Steenkamp, Du Plessis, Chili, Kanko, Smit, Matfield, Fdp and M. Steyn
If I have to lay blame as to who didn’t perform to scratch, wasn’t Adams or Johnson or Hargreaves or Potgieter or Viljoen. But rather Steenkamp, Du Plessis, Ralepelle, Matfield, Botha, Fdp, M. Steyn, Pienaar, Ndungane. These all seasoned Springbok’s with more than enough caps already under their belts.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
@Langenhoven:
so you know the nature of men that you know nothing about.
and you are willing to make such judgements absolutely and all-encompassingly.
progressive? where?
@nama1:
sure i understand the sentiment that certain of the coaches are inherently racist, tho i doubt very much a coach will leave out a green martian if it gives his team the edge, esp in modern SA where the push for racial profiling is so powerful.
Is the national team, the best of the best, meant to be the proving ground for where black players are given a chance?
If so, fine, but dont expect teh results to be any different.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
@Langenhoven:
how do you know that all teh S14 coaches presume their white superiorioty?
based on what do you make such a claim?
do you not think these guys want to win?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
@Langenhoven: and every black person thinking they deserve the ooportunity because of appartheid?what then?then its not racist no more?then it’s equal rights and AA,BEE…
bottom line,quota systems have not worked till now,and its not going to start working either
November 30th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
@toe-jam:
318. toe-jam No white caoch will play him at FH… They fear he will dominate..as he did in the CC campaign of 2008. Morne was a mile behind him before Big Twat Loffie decided to seek and destroy by moving him to FB
November 30th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Craven and his cronies were gutless and towed the party line imo.
White i really am not concerned with as a moral force of virtue or anything else.
Both almost certainly know the game of rugby better than anyone on here.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
@cab: #314
“Raubenheimer has not played a single game of S14 rugby,…”
You see, this is the kind of thing I’m talking about. You may or may not be right with your opinion of him. I don’t know. Have not seen enough of him to make a call.
But, I would like to think that next time a white player is chosen for the Boks without having played any S14/15, you would be against it on the same grounds.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
@cab: Definitely not on what they say.. but take a good look at their selections.. its a better measure… Every racist twat that has blogged on site, even Exkreni purported to be not racist… FK we all know how the evaluate them.. Even you have managed to detect the twats.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
The Springboks should be about excellence, call it the Bushpigs if it makes you feel better, does not bother me.
It should be that when someone is selected for the national team they know they are amongst the select few genuinely best in their position – a genuine honour reserved purely on merit – no colour involved.
How do you think consciousness or any form of esteem is developed, its by competeing and succeeding at every level – selfmade men the world over are not those that ***** and moan – they get on with it and find a way regardless of the obstacles.
If you trying to convince me that modern SA wont select a talented black player who is as good as his white counterpart – i would say you talking utter ****. There are no obstacles at all, quite the opposite.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Is an exasperatedly fine line for any coach in this politically motivated environment to walk between transforming staid perceptions and traditional attitudes and broach new breeding grounds for broader inclusitivy from outside those traditional nurseries.
If some those players become capable and competent at the highest level through exposure of such nature, then the exercise has been largely successful. If not then the exercise can be deemed a wasted opportunity.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
@nama1:
fair enough, and you might point to frans steyn, but then again i;d say any back weighing 100kg+ and slotting goals from 60m out is the sort of talent for which an exception can be made – he is far superior to his contemporiers – raubenheimer is not. and skin colour aint into it.
if raubenheimer was built like jonah lomu and made that sort of impact fine, but he is not, and is unlikely to be a started for any s14 team.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
@cab: SA rugby is constrained by legacy… That Legacy is racist.. Take a look at Loffie.. This twat chose to lose rather than expose black talent.. **** Muir will continue with this stupidity at the LIOns. I will expose any racist twat if given the opportunity to interview them in public.. This site is a prime example.. How many twats have I exposed.. Even Mark Keohane and his twat journalist are afraid to enter into a debate with me…They know that I will annialate them
November 30th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
@Langenhoven: if a coach has this brilliant talent at fh,and they dont play that player in that position,it does not make sense.why take your best fh prospect in the country and play fb,and then bring in some bone head to cover that position.
when rose came through the ranks at wp,i always thought that the hype around him superseeds his abilities.no doubt,he has them special sporadic moments of sheer brilliance,but it’s not enough in the modern era.
nick koster is the same,all this hype around this player,and the only time i’ve seen some of that was when he played at 8 coming on as a reserve…
players should be evaluated on their playing and not when the media think they are the ****
November 30th, 2009 at 11:20 pm
@cab: #330
How many coloured players have you seen become Boks in other provinces although they are from the Cape. Why did they have to leave? Because the coaches felt that they had their required number of “quota players” on their books. Players like Guthro, Ashwin, Ricky, Adi, JPP. Can you even imagine the above mentioned players playing together with Breytie in the same WP team a few years ago?
I bet you can’t. The coaches of WP also could not. Therefore they did not sign some of these players. As long as they could field there minimum of two required “quotas”, all was well.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
@Langenhoven:
well you can expose any racist twat you want if it makes you feel better. what makes you think loffie was such a racist twat, he was the one who selected and bought earl when your beloved WP did not want him?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
@nama1:
sure these are good players, but what about the white players they are competing against? must they just give way because they are white or because their forefathers were racist twats?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
@cab: The strategy of Seek and Destroy mate… He wnats black players to win for him without somebody considering them as springbok material.. All white coaches have sworn to the protection of the Legacy.. Nama1 Makes a good point.. Why have all the great Coloured players of the Cape not been retained in WP..
November 30th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
@cab: #339
Forget about Steyn.
As I said “next time a white player is chosen for the Boks without having played any S14/15,…”
November 30th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
@toe-jam: I think that this conversation is way beyond you mate… you should try and read all the posts.. I have answered all your stupid assertions already
November 30th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
@toe-jam: @cab: fair enough cab, i just think you’re misguided if you think most black people want the “black fella shouted up” so that the “conciousness” of black can be propped up, some of us grew up playing & watching the keegan daniels, dewalt potgieters, luke watsons, brent russells of this world and are not deluded about how good or average those players were compared to their black teammates/counter-parts.
As long as players like vulindlu are pushed to play wing while donkeys like strauss & swanepoel are given chance after chance and still ******* up you will still have the black extremists tempering with the system of selection, that means you will still me bemoaning selections like raubenheimer (who by the way i also thought looked lost @ sea)
When you have hans coetzee’s of this world being given springoks like jaque fourie to coach in the currie cup and nobody screams “non-merit selection or quota coach” while coaches like eric sauls, paul treu are around you will still have the black extremists tempering with the selection system!
November 30th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
@Langenhoven:
seek and destroy…this is very strange tactic, loffie could only pick players for the Lions, he had no say on their selection for the Boks.
why have all the great coloured players not been retained in the cape? i dunno, but presumably cos there were deemed to be better players at that time (by the racist twats)?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:29 pm
its this fine line that is the problem.
What coach supposed to do with hands tied behind his back.
WP Nel, Vermeulen, Alberts, Sykes, Louw, Liebenberg, Mapoe, Grant, S. Pretorius, Joe Pietersen should have gone. I would have selected them.
So who would I have left behind.
Kanko, Jannie Dup, Roussouw, Ndungane,
Who else
Burger, Botha, Matfield, Fdp, Kirchner, Steenkamp, Jacobs, WO, who?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
@cab: #337
“The Springboks should be about excellence,…”
Nobody dispute this. The question is, can we marry our quest for excellence while transforming the game at the same time? How do we do it?
@cab: #344
No Cab. My point is that these players should have been given a chance to compete for a place in the WP team. Obviously against the white players who then played for WP in that positions. They were not.
I don’t understand where this notion that coloured/black players want freebies come from. It’s simply not true. They just want an opportunity to prove themselves, just like the white players.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
@cab: 349. cab… I think that you forgot where this conversation start… S14 coaches see it as their duty to influence bok selections… The reason why Habana is going to WP is because the Volk need to him to make way for a certain Mr Van Der Heever who will never make the Bulls S14 team with Habana still there… Habana and his family will sell their souls. Fighting racism does not fit into their business plan.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
@nama1:
no i dont think one can social engineer anything based on skin colour, despite the best intentions it gets marred by personal agendas. The only criteria at teh national level should be merit, tho its true we will be at the whims of the 3-man selection panel, but they should not have transformation ideals in mind imo – i may be wrong – but that is how i see the fairest way to proceed.
if transformation is to be carried out do so with quotas at teh lowest level, but leave the national coach unfettered, pick a black man to do the job but with no provisos or poltiical agenda – his sole criteria is to win test matches.
@Langenhoven:
But you still see it as a fight, perhaps ppl just want to get on living in fair systems and insitutuons with one another? Why has Habana sold his soul. Here is one player who is a total role model for all. The best in the world in his position.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
anyway okes, i’m going to hit the sack, good night.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
@nama1: Nama.. I think that we must stop seeing transformation as a trade off against excellence… Its about broadening the talent pool and increasing competition… SA rugby and Apartheid has always being stifling competition … and therewith progress.. The loss on Saturday is indicative of how rugby legacy constrained performance.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
@cab: has riaan viljoen played s14 cab? Alistair hargreaves, if they have, did they sat the pitch on fire? Nick Koster, didn’t he jump from obscurity to the run-on stormers side in the s14? Were you as perturbed by all these selections as you seem to be by raubenheimer, chili & maku?
Come on now, you’re entitled to your opinions but be consistent, that’s how you will earn respect. Is francois hougaard the epitome of scrumming excellence in this country? Was jaco vd westhuizen ever close to any form of excellence in the green & gold jersey? How about meyer bosman?
When the likes of pedrie wannenburg and wynand olivier (before this year’s season) wore the bok jersey and you shut up about it, weren’t you being a little hypocritical?
November 30th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
@cab: Cheers mate.. its always good chatting to you … tonight might have been fierce.. but with you it will never be personal… Long Live
November 30th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Cheers gents… I need to be at the French consulate early tomorrow… Getting a Shengen Visa in London is an unbelievable rip off and scam.
Long Live
November 30th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
There’s no soul to sell
Habana is a rich coloured kid who had all the opportunity much like Gibbs or Jantjes did. They came through the white system and excelled.
There is far too much inherent anxiety and hurt still festering in and amongst social imbalances throughout the system whether it be through Craven week or onto provincial or franchise setups and filtering all the way up to national levels.
Excellence should be the only yardstick for national selection nothing else. But it is also true to some extent that at provincial and lower tier levels prejudice and inadequate opportunity is still rampant. It has to get addressed at some point. If provincial management and coaching is not doing it lower down then national coach might have to bite the national excellence bullet and over rule the system and compromise the quality for sake of equality in opportunity.
Its not ideal but then nothing is in imperfect societies.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
@cab: #353
“no i dont think one can social engineer anything based on skin colour,”
If only you were there to tell the Nats that 50 years ago, we probably would not have this discussion now.(smilie)
And I repeat, everybody will agree with you that merit should be the only criteria for selection at national level. The responsibility for developing black players who can compete with their white brothers for a place in the Bok side should rest with the provincial coaches. At the moment, they are not doing it. This leaves the Bok coach in the unfortunate situation where he has to select some players who may or may not be good enough or ready yet to play for the Boks.
The whole country is transforming. Rugby cant be left to carry on as usual.
November 30th, 2009 at 11:59 pm
@Transformation:
i was actually none of them imo deserved to be there, i was even concerned with THs like WP Nel who we had not seen at S14 level – but the tour was crying out for development in this position so he should have been taken.
hargreaves was an even worse selection than raubenheimer, since he is white and we have a glut of no 5 locks, but no no4s esp for a hard NH EOY tour.
December 1st, 2009 at 12:00 am
They (SAB) must give the Mark Keohane the papsak award.
He writes like someone who is “dik gesyp”
December 1st, 2009 at 12:01 am
I think I just posted the 1st post for the month of Dec 2009 here on keo.
Always 1st, like the Bokke!
December 1st, 2009 at 12:02 am
@nama1:
i am not that old, but i guarentee you i was far more outspoken against the racist national party then the current lot who are doing pretty well all things considered. But i;m not really going to get inot that since it means nothing, we are living in the present, the question is whether the same mistakes are repeated and whether more social engineering is continued.
December 1st, 2009 at 12:04 am
it’s crazy that everyone says that pdv must develop depth from scratch, yet the DOR’s of the stormers & sharks go & get the matt to’omua’s & hernandez of this world to play in the business end of out currie cup, then i the case of to’omua he jumps straight off a plain from cape town into one bound for europe because robbie deans thinks he is a future talent….
December 1st, 2009 at 12:09 am
@Langenhoven:
cheers
December 1st, 2009 at 12:21 am
@cab: so do you see the riaan viljoen, hougaard & hargreaves selections as some sort of “shouting up” of “white conciousness” that is screaming to be reinforced or propped up? How were the players they were picked ahead of meant to feel?
December 1st, 2009 at 12:25 am
@cab:
That was jokingly said. Not taking a stab at you there at all.
You’re right. We should be even more vigilant now knowing where we come from. Looking at the attacks on Mbeki now regarding his AIDS policy, one can see how easy it is for the public to be fooled by the powers that be. As a collective SA society, we have failed ourselves in this regard. Your average white person will however see it as a “black” thing and not in the context of SA as a whole.
Whether you like it or not, transformation in rugby is a given. It is the manner in which it is done that should be discussed. Obviously most of us have a problem with how it takes place right now. But the people who have the power to provide an alternative in transforming rugby, are not doing their bit,
December 1st, 2009 at 2:48 am
The boks are not as bad as we think, but I agree that this tour was EXCEPTIONALLY BADLY MANAGED.
Did you see how Henry brought only a few new players along and substituted them into an established, experienced side for the easier games? That is how you do it – not replace 8 of the team with newbies. That is what I said pre-tour.
The senior Bok players and leaders are reverting to type (kicking) under pressure and forgetting the cardinal rule of not being predictable. for all their experience, they are not adapting to cicumstances and changing their game plan. If linouts are not working, keep ball in hand FFS.
December 1st, 2009 at 8:11 am
EXCELLENT article Keo – I agree wholeheartedly.
The Boks (including the coaching staff) are not as good as we thought…
Besides, when have we ever thought our rugby teams have had any semblance of intelligence or astuteness (other than under Jake White)?…
To think, Matfield was shocked when he found out the Irish had learned to count in Afrikaans! Who would have thought, rocket science is probably easier to master! Dumb fool.
December 1st, 2009 at 8:27 am
Keo,
You got to go back to the basics of Rugby in SA
It’s not soccer, it’s a Public Schools’ game and only followed by certain classes of the society, in the UK, Argentina, France and Australia.
In SA and NZ it’s different, for the white portion of the population it’s the Number One sport at high schools and then further groomed at Varsity level.
The Pro era changed perceptions but still, the less players play it at selected schools the less quality players will come thru the ranks.
Anybody who lives in a denial to understand the SA rugby’s supply chain will not understand why Steenkamp and Chiliboy were put on the first plane back after the Leicester’s game, or why BJ, CJ, Strauss, Wiam and JdV were called up in a hurry.
I understood it and got a handsome reward from my bookie, getting correctly BOTH the results and the spreads of 4 out of five EOYT matches!
December 1st, 2009 at 8:36 am
@Hondo:
you predicted that Chille would get injured?
well, nothing new about that.
Hell, Chilli wasn’t fit enough just 6 days earlier for a CC final…..why would anyone think that he would make it through the entire tour and yet alone 1 game.
oh, I get it.
union coaches are all racist or something like that?
December 1st, 2009 at 8:46 am
Keo – I have to say that most of this is an outrageous article. The All Blacks are the benchmark – we meat then three times this year. There were marginal wins but so what – we beat the Lions and won the tri- nations. It seems thay are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t. The Boks were two kicks away from beating the Irish. Such is life in test rugby – it turns on the smallest of incident. I do agree that managment has a part toplay. I recall Mallet’s 17 in a row side which was one of the best trained and drilled sides I had seen in a long time. They had a few dimensions to their game and had the ability to close off games with relative ease. You can point the finger at managment but not at the players who are there to play not manage.
December 1st, 2009 at 8:51 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl:
I don’t play suppositions
I predicted he is gonna be totalled after 20 minutes if he was lucky
But Keo here talks about Boks management and structure, right?
I assumed they have doctors and Physio on the team to assess the guy’s fitness before pencilled him in?
December 1st, 2009 at 8:54 am
@kesbok:
What’s your point then?
I put the French and Ireland to win at a 3-7 points spread, am I a prophet? NO
I see the reality
December 1st, 2009 at 8:58 am
@Transformation: Mmm….probably a bit like how Derick Kuun felt watching the 3rd choice hooker at his union playing for the Boks?
December 1st, 2009 at 9:10 am
@Valkyrie: i have no gripe with you
was in agreement of what you were saying
@Transformation:
Jake’s joker 6, 7 and 8 cards
See the thing with Keo is …all was forgiven after JW won the world cup..that doesnt take away from alot of the **** that happenned be4 tht
its strange to think how flexible and un-stubborn PdV is as compared to White
imagine having such a stubborn DOR
JW will never change
kudos to him for winning the world cup but keo needs to step down as chairman of JW fan club, his journalistic integrity depends on it
was even impressed to see ol Gary Boshoff of News24 having a dig at PdV
December 1st, 2009 at 9:15 am
@kesbok:
It was an excellent article, as a previous blogger has said. Good incisive insightful journalism. Some points were overblown, yes, as a win is a win at test level. Some points he went soft on like omitting Brisbane from the list of losses.
My analysis earlier this year was that the 3N side was very good except for the front row turned out right.
But at least the world game is in good shape.
And I dont think mediocrity in the Bok management will continue to be rewarded, or is that a vain hope?
December 1st, 2009 at 9:23 am
@wooden spoon: You must be a member of the Jake White fan club too.
December 1st, 2009 at 9:26 am
@Sheriff: Hahahahahahaha. Too true.
December 1st, 2009 at 9:27 am
@Hondo: #371
“for the white portion of the population it’s the Number One sport at high schools”
Apparently the younger generation of the white population in NZ don’t want to play rugby against the big boys from the Pacific Islands any more.
December 1st, 2009 at 9:37 am
@nama1:
I know, I read about it in the NZ Herald few times
What the Kiwis did in their wisdom was to restructure the under 18 leagues by WEIGHT and SIZE, no idea how successful that worked.
The NZ Herald said that around Aukland and Hamilton 90% of the young players are now P. Islanders, not even Maori so soon the ABs will be a Samoa or Tonga in disguised
But that’s the Kiwis problem, we have ours to worry about
December 1st, 2009 at 9:52 am
@Hondo: To be fair, does not Auckland have a very large Samoan population? Come on guys Australia is a mixed cauldron of all sorts, we deal with it and do the best with what we have.
December 1st, 2009 at 9:54 am
@rossoneri: No, not really. JW wasn’t all honey and sweet smelling roses.
BUT he was streets ahead of Streauli, Viljoen, Du Plessis, Markgraaf, etc…
That 36-0 dismantling of England at the RWC 2007 was brilliant, a lot of planning and strategy (um, 4 years of it) went into that one game because we all knew it would give us an easier route to the final (kind of the opposite of what happened when we lost to Eng in the pool stage in RWC 2003). The guy deserves some credit.
IMO the bitter criticism of the guy is waaaay overboard.
December 1st, 2009 at 10:00 am
@wooden spoon: Your opinion. But you’re missing who the bloggers are having a go at. Not Jake, but Keo.
December 1st, 2009 at 10:04 am
@rossoneri: No, not really. My post and reference to JW was independent of the aforegoing discussion. 2 separate issues.
Oh, of course Keo loves JW these days… Haven’t you noticed the “JWWW” link at the top of the page?
December 1st, 2009 at 10:12 am
Potty-Mouth
Cant you write posts without sinking to your homely gutter?
How about leaving all your personal vindictive out of it and try write English.
Are this brave face to face, or is your keyboard some sort of ’superman creating’ delusional enhancer?
December 1st, 2009 at 10:43 am
@RugbyRulz:
OK
So why now the growing numbers of PI kids in NZ young rugby teams?
They were not restricted before, so why that sudden majority among the under 18 players?
I don’t know myself
December 1st, 2009 at 10:48 am
@wooden spoon: jake is an astute rugby genius! Which is why no other country in the world wants him to coach their side, declan kidney, o’sullivan, gatland etc all have international coaching jobs but our jake has no job, he is going around as a consultant to help other coaches program their “robots”
December 1st, 2009 at 11:11 am
@Hondo: #382
I can guarantee you if we in SA take the same approach and play our under 18 league by WEIGHT and SIZE, these traditional powerhouse white rugby schools will get beaten to bits by traditionally black/coloured schools, especially in the WC and EC.
It already is happening despite the weight advantage these white schools have in their packs.
December 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
You have to remember that New Zealand oonly has a population of 4 million so we’re not doing too bad at this game called rugby…
December 1st, 2009 at 12:55 pm
This is a very good acticle, which askes allot of very pertinent questions.
If the Boks had beaten France and Ireland, there would be no questions asked and we would be hailed as the best team in the World. But because we lost we cannot consider ourselves to be the most dominent team in world rugby.
The All Blacks have played just as much rugby as us but they don’t loose. Even though we are currently World Champions, we are not the most dominant rugby team in world rugby and I think it is such a shame.
If we got our house in order as it is suggested in this article I firmly believe we could become the all powerful team we wish to be.
I an also extremely worried about our future as a powerful rugby nation. We are not developing our strongest youth or exposing them on tour like the one we’ve just you.
SARU get your act together before everything falls apart!
December 1st, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Keo, I agree with what you’ve written and find your tones exactly right, except:
1) It is important to keep the focus on the uneven playing fields in the Super 14 and Tri-Nations which do contribute to added physical, mental and emotional pressure on the SA players, which you have negated; and
2) What do you mean by “facilitate the uber egos”? Egos cannot be facilitated. They have to be disbanded or there will always be negative resistances to positive ideas and progress.
December 1st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
@Langenhoven: Bollocks out of the top drawer.
December 1st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
After reading all this racist bullshit i hope they just fire Pieter de Villiers so you can all get your way and pick a white coach and drop all the ‘quota players’.Then i can go back to supporting the all blacks and be happy winning you doose every year as usual
December 1st, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Keo: I thought about this article and I need to say that this writing is quite critical of a group of people who do not control the politcal situation they are in thus are forced to have a coach selected largely on the colour of his skin and rugby officals that are selected largely on the colour of their skin, thus is creates team selections that are based largely on the players skin colour. This situation is crazy.
But regardless of all this the boks still won the Lions series and the Tri-nations, they beat the AB three times in a row. We should be applauding the boks for being able to play winning rugby in this polotical environment.
I also want you to remember the bias that comes for the officiating body that is IRB with their substandard NH reffing programs and international staff.
But still we win the games that matter. While YOU on on like they did not win the tri-nations or the lions series.
You have your points but I feel your comments are to critical against a team that has done us proud this year through tremendous adversity.
December 1st, 2009 at 7:00 pm
@Transformation: Brilliant post Transie! Eloquent, to the point and entirely true
December 1st, 2009 at 7:14 pm
haha Keo, u sound like such a tosser!!!!
Tri Nations Champions, British and Irish Lions champions, that chip on your shoulder seems to be getting bigger with every season!!!
Well Done Boks, Thanks for a great year!!
December 1st, 2009 at 8:49 pm
The ABs will never be a Tonga or Samoa in disguise [as Hondo says].It is true that kids with pacific island heritage,dominate,kids and schools rugby in NZ,but this is mainly because they get bigger far earlier than the white kids.It definitely tails off into the early 20s,when the white kids catch up in size and come into there own,the current ABs,and Canterbury squads being good examples….personally I love the mix of heritages in NZ rugby …long let it reign
December 1st, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Anyone mention the word fickle? This is a very different tune that Keo is singing. He was more than happy to roll out the thesaurus looking for superlatives when the Boks were winning.
He doesn’t care if the boks play well only if they win. Well Keo, let me introduce you to your chickens which have come home to roost.
You told the Boks they were the best. Best at tactical kicking, best at chasing & best forward pack all through the tri nations & Lions series.
If you have helped with the recepie, don’t spit it out, swallow it like a big boy.
December 1st, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Well written Keo, I saw the signs in the B&I tour. The present SA coaching regime abilities is very poor. Gary Gold must rate as one of the worst forward coaches this country has ever seen, fortunately for him he can talk the talk. **** Muir as a back line coach does not bring any innovation to the side. I cannot understand how the Lions have made him head coach for season 2010. PDV would never have been coach if it was not for the ANC instructing SARFU to toe the line. It can be clearly seen in the interviews when he & John Smit is together that JS persona’s is that of the senior person. The journalists have also latched on to this and treat JS as the snr party.
Watch the fun & games next year as panic starts to kreep in.
Innovation will keep you winning! Does this coaching regime have innovative ideas, I do not see it!
December 2nd, 2009 at 8:52 am
@Kryger: I echo your sentiments fully. PdV has done little more than implement the successful Bulls template. He has shown virtually no innovation to speak of.
This template has brought us much success, but only when we’re winning the physical collisions and are accurate on the kick-chase. The limitations of this approach were shown up badly on the recent tour, and when the situation called for a change of game plan, the players were unable to respond. Much of the blame for that must go to the coaching staff who are happy to rest on their laurels while the rest of the rugby world is advancing.
I don’t think PdV has the maturity to be an international coach. He is technically and temperamentally ill-equipped. When the team wins, he becomes big-headed and arrogant, and when the team loses, he glosses over the obvious weaknesses in the performance. It’s a formula for long-term failure.