Baa Baas match ‘not ideal’
3 Dec 2009
Saru couldn’t withdraw the nine Springboks selected for the Barbarians as they had already made an agreement with the club in April.
Peter de Villiers tried to justify the Boks’ minimal preparation time of two days in French conditions before the Toulouse Test as he wanted to make the tour a ‘two and a half week one instead of four weeks’. De Villiers hasn’t had his wish granted as still more than half of the Boks who started against Ireland will spend a week longer up north for the fixture at Twickenham on Saturday.
Saru acting MD Andy Marinos was initially unwilling to speak about the Boks’ involvement in the exhibition match against the All Blacks as the topic of the Boks’ ‘fatigue’ has been a big talking point in recent weeks.
‘We’ve all heard Jake White’s views, so haven’t you guys spoken enough about this issue? But anyways, in April SA Rugby had a request from the Barbarians to have our players released. We spoke to the provincial unions as last year one party was willing to release and the other not, and this year we both agreed to let our players play,’ Marinos told keo.co.za.
Players such as Schalk Burger and Bismarck du Plessis weren’t available for the Boks’ Test against Italy due to injury, but will line-up for the Baa Baas two weeks later. Fourie du Preez – usually a target for all opposition facing him – was also doubtful for the Ireland match, but Marinos played down these worries as he doesn’t believe the risk of injuries at Twickenham will be as great.
Those who watched Schalk Burger clattering into defenders in last year’s Wembley encounter or seeing two Australian props being stretchered off would disagree.
‘We couldn’t withdraw certain players as the Barbarians had selected their team and based a model around those players, so we couldn’t do that to them,’ said Marinos. ‘Im confident our medical team did all the work at the end of the tour and they would’ve pulled guys who they were worried about.
‘In hindsight, given the year we’ve had, it’s not ideal – the players have to spend another week on tour and run the risk of injury. But we must take the match in context. The week’s build-up is not as tough, and Baa Baas matches aren’t the same intensity as Tests.’
On Monday De Villiers called for more rest as the players were physically and mentally drained after the year, but Victor Matfield, Danie Rossouw, Beast Mtawarira, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Jaque Fourie, Du Preez, Du Plessis and Burger will get one more hit-out.
Looking ahead to 2010, Marinos said the priority shouldn’t be the players’ franchises, but the Boks.
‘Do you rest the players for the Super 14, or for the Boks? The media want them to play Super Rugby, but that’s skewed, the Boks must get the most of them. When the Boks are strong and successful, it benefits all of South African rugby. We’ve done advanced planning for 2010, and told all our stakeholders those plans.
‘We’ve got an invitation to open the new Aviva Stadium [against Ireland] and a fixture against the Baa Baas, but we need those as we look to unearth talent before the World Cup. We know we have to manage the players. They can’t miss huge blocks like the All Blacks did in 2007, but they have to be managed by their Super 14 teams.’
By Grant Ball
429 Comments
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3 Dec 2009, 17:51 pm
@Nick Armstrong: if i’m following nick & simon here correctly, they are telling us that unless a coach inherits a teams that is in shambles then they are k@k!
Heyneke Meyer inherited a blue bulls team that was k@k and built into a championship winning team. So Rassie when he took over at Free State did jake.
Frans Ludeke is k@k, he inherited a championship winning team and and finished 10th the next year.
Robbie Deans is k@k because he inherited a multiple championship winning Crusaders team BUILT by Wayne Smith.
This is the kind of thinking a 75+ IQ produces and some of you here want to haul the race card; shame on you.
3 Dec 2009, 17:51 pm
@Nick Armstrong:
“Oh yes – and do you remember before Pierre Spies’ injury – PdV was planning on dropping Heinrich Brussow for the Test vs France…??? Go figure that piece of rugby rocket-science out…”
The *only* reason for this – he couldve been thinking of Brussow as a captain. Otherwise it was brain-melt
3 Dec 2009, 17:57 pm
@josh ilan:
Jakes record reads 1 RWC
Good enough for me
3 Dec 2009, 17:57 pm
@ Josh Ilan – I guess every coach in SA has the same problem – which has hamstrung them all – including JW and those before him – they CANNOT choose the team they REALLY want.
They HAVE to have a certain number of players of colour in their team/squad. Please don’t tell me you don’t know this… This system is called “quotas”. Or let me put it this way – let’s just say, for example, at any one time, a coach believed his best XV were all white…would he have been able to choose an all-white team…???
The answer is: no. Fact. And the coaches have had to try and do their best, in a very competitive international arena – factoring in this selection reality… Fact.
And not selecting your best players, your best team – when the margins between the top teams is sometimes wafer-thin – will result in Test matches lost…
The thing is – no matter what selections – have you ever – EVER – seen such absurd substitutions (and the timing thereof) as what PdV has done all year – starting with the 1st Test vs the B & I Lions in Durban…..????
That comes down to basic rugby acumen…
3 Dec 2009, 18:11 pm
@Nick Armstrong: nick, now you are clutching @ straws and it is pathetic. Even Mark Keohane berated Jake’s record of “transformation” selections and whar did Jake say? “if the provincial coaches don’t provide him with quality black players he can’t pick them from anywhere”. When your Jake was losing to the Irish & dismal English team that had lost about 6 games on the trot, go check if his team was riddled with quotas before you come & talk b*llocks on this blog! We were also around for Jake’s era buddy don’t think you can gloss over it without is picking it up!
You haven’t answered any of the stuff Josh has put to you but the first bush you run to is “quotas” GTFOH!
3 Dec 2009, 18:12 pm
@Nick Armstrong:
Keo,
Some good results in 2005, 2006 a complete mess, 2007 hammered in the Tri-Nations (resting the 1st choice players or not) and by the end of 07 Eddie had joined so Jake’s ability to perform on his own could not be judged clearly. By my count, that’s one good year (with solid wins against a WEAK England side).
Recruiting someone in who makes up for your own shortcomings is not that much of a master stoke Keo, it really isn’t. The difference between the pre-Eddie and post-Eddie Boks only exposed the skills Jake didn’t have to offer the Boks as head coach.
Agreed Jake and Eddie together would have been promising. I don’t know enough about Gary Gold to have an educated opinion of him. Some say he’s incredibly “tactically astute” and London Irish didn’t seem to have any issues with him. Based on the packs he’s coached, he doesn’t impress me (I like his “Playbook” in SA rugby though). Muir was found out at provincial level with the Sharks even before his coaching career started with the Boks.
And one last query, why are all the Boks ranting and raving about how happy they are under the current setup if it’s that flawed?
3 Dec 2009, 18:18 pm
@Yetirat:
According to some, the Boks are probably ranting and raving about how happy they are under the current setup because John Smit tells them to
3 Dec 2009, 18:24 pm
Both PDV and JW have done very well.
With Christie and Mallet, their win records are far above the others.
JW created an unbeaten home record, won a 3N and a RWC which was his ultimate goal but perhaps his biggest legacy was in settin up the base (structures and players) which became the most successful bok team in the modern era.
He had to change all the free-ranging artistic showmanship rot that had set in, and he did it, whether you care to admit it or not.
3 Dec 2009, 18:37 pm
@Yetirat: jon cardinelli &and ryan vrede dropped the “hint” yesterday on the “winners” thread. they said if you have a read of john smit’s book you will not have any doubts as to who was coaching the team this whole year, it’s all there, how he disagreed with pdv over the 3rd lions test team and all sort of other “open secrets”.
Remember john smit earlier this year saying that any journalist that can quote him verbatim saying that pdv is not coaching the team must produce the evidence, he was setting it up that he drops the bombshell himself in his book!
3 Dec 2009, 18:40 pm
@Transformation:
i haven’t had a chance to read the book.
i thought js spoke highly of pdv in the book, to the extent that they had a good relationship – good enough for js to engage pdv on the team for that 3rd test.
surely this doesn’t imply that js was actually coaching the boks?
3 Dec 2009, 18:43 pm
@charo:
I think he was referring to this bit by JC and Ryan:
“John Smit held the Springboks together and even made the substitution calls during the second Test after the coaching staff’s ‘mare at King’s Park. Read between the lines of his book and you’ll reach the same conclusion: without Smitty, the Boks are on auto-pilot.”
3 Dec 2009, 18:46 pm
@cab: i don’t think anyone is out to deny jake his achievements, but his praise singers (yourself included) must not gloss over his failures 5 games from 12, how he stubborn and wrong he was about the dynamics of the loose trio! And how his one dimensional tactics have left us with robots that are afraid to think for themselves and are only content to play under a certain framework and even if they can see that a situation calls for a change of tactic, they don’t do it and are content to say “i was only following the coach’s instructions”
3 Dec 2009, 18:49 pm
@Transformation:
i dont gloss over his features, i dont dont think anyone is perfect, far from it, even The Greatest, but i figure when you get a good coach and some good players why do you want to go tearing that down when they doing fine?
in short, someone mentioned it the other day, i just dont see the point of knee-jerk reactions, they screw everything up.
3 Dec 2009, 18:51 pm
@cab:
Good post.
3 Dec 2009, 18:57 pm
Trans, it is nice attempt @ killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Creating interest JS’s book for obvious reasons and having a dig @ PdV.
3 Dec 2009, 18:59 pm
since 1995 we’ve only had 2 bad coached imo – harry and rudi.
kitch brought tight discipline, carel brought a free flowing game which only reached maturity in his last game in charge.
jake brought back traditions and pride, and got rid of the nasty image of the boks.
pdv has brought a new element of team spirit and cameraderie.
3 Dec 2009, 19:01 pm
@WP Till I Die:
oh ok. it’s a bugger trying to work and blog at the same time
3 Dec 2009, 19:03 pm
Now where the hell is Skopskiet when you really need him to dispel these myths about “Mr Whoopsie” and the big dooby doo. LOL
This blog is hilarious, I don’t think I’ve ever seen one topic debated so many times before.
3 Dec 2009, 19:12 pm
@Nick Armstrong: #254
“…let’s just say, for example, at any one time, a coach believed his best XV were all white…”
If that is to be the case, it will only mean that:
1. the province where he’s the coach has not buy into the transformation policy of SARU;
2. coloured/black players in that province are ridiculously poor rugby players;
3. the coach is disingenuous and does not want to include black/coloured players in his team.
3 Dec 2009, 19:12 pm
@charo:
Harry was a gem in the rough. A bit too ahead of his time though and not quite tough enough mentally for all the **** that comes with being the Springbok coach.
3 Dec 2009, 19:13 pm
@Jozi: eish jozi, tell me about it ndoda! people were discussing “fatigue” with the usual lethargy that signifies the end of the season, then qhaphu gqi! Isiduphunga esifana no-Nick Armstrong esenza abahlali babenomsindo…
3 Dec 2009, 19:14 pm
@charo:
Harry was a gem in the rough. A bit too ahead of his time though and not quite tough enough mentally for all the **** that comes with being Springbok coach.
3 Dec 2009, 19:16 pm
@Transformation:
I think you will find that to have been one of the shorter blogging careers on keo…
3 Dec 2009, 19:25 pm
well if J Smit was running the show he stuffed up by not moving himself back to hooker a long time ago!
Instead of coaching all and sundry perhaps he should og taught himself to scrum!
Bloody turbo reverse specialist!
3 Dec 2009, 19:26 pm
@WP Till I Die: #242
The match against France at Newlands will not take place there any more because of the FIFA WC. There is talk of playing it at Wembley. If that happens Newlands will have no test match next year.
Watch SARU organising a match for Newlands in August, probably against Argintinia. I’m just speculating here.
3 Dec 2009, 19:27 pm
@Transformation: My first response to you is being moderated….quite why I don’t know but baya thanda uku khuluma ama s!mba la bantu. Ukuya ngabo umuntu omnyama aka melang’a phumelele. Uma e phumelela kuba nama excuses. Screw that….asisa buyeli emuva, siya phambili all the way…..haak vrystaat.
Hope u can read my poor attempt at typing in Zulu my first language is Venda.
3 Dec 2009, 19:28 pm
@gunther: yeah, i can imagine…and to think Simon came out to vouch for the bloke & the it emerges that the guy is his *** lover!!!! This blog is definitely one of a kind.
I quite enjoyed your little tryst with Atriedes earlier on too
lol
3 Dec 2009, 19:29 pm
@273 Gunter, some bloggers reckon that Nick is Simon’ s *** lover, but I think it is Gavin Rich, looking at the illogical arguments used.
3 Dec 2009, 19:34 pm
@grant10: How was lunch?
3 Dec 2009, 19:35 pm
@Transformation:
yes he has gone to “harden the f**k up”…
I have just been sent a picture of brussouw’s eye after the ireland game…. I’ll tell you what somebody gouged him…maybe it was schalk!
3 Dec 2009, 19:35 pm
Havent read the thread….with all this strange *** talking going on i may choose not to…..
Bloody hell…..there is such a lot to discuss on the future dynamics of the bok team leading up to 2011….why is White still dominating the comments?
That fool would still heve Schalk at openside……
At least he would never had Barney at 3…..
All said and done….PDV…stamp your authority boet!!!!
3 Dec 2009, 19:36 pm
@carol:
can’t you tell … he has turbo reverse out…
3 Dec 2009, 19:36 pm
@Dust: Great Gatsby – The book was a big let down….he was a bit of a wuss in the end!
@Sheriff: Now an edible gatsby souunds right up my street!
3 Dec 2009, 19:37 pm
@carol: Cool thanks….Cape Town is insane…saw the FIFA bus dropping all the celebs off at Leeuwenhf, the home of our Premier…..big dinner bash…..
A few beers so if i drop a few barbs at some prima donnas ….forgive me in advance!
3 Dec 2009, 19:37 pm
Jake was a very limited tactical thinker. His inability to adapt and respond to open play situations was highly conspicuous throughout his tenure.
Without Eddy Jones at his side Jake was incapable of creating any incisive strategies to unlock defenses. What we seeing now is the identical same falling back onto the tried and tested one dimensional formulas that White inculcated into his game plans which are now being fostered onto the Bok playing patterns by John Smit and the senior player coaches as the adopted modus operandi of choice.
The total running style that was the hallmark of Pdv’s earlier approach has become shelved in favor of this other conservative play without the ball style that has been hailed as playing to our strengths by the senior established players.
Springbok rugby is again regressing and not progressing by reverting to the same insecure negative conservatism which was the exact strangle hold that we experienced and witnessed our game go through during the latter part of Jake White’s tenure as coach before the advent of Eddy Jones.
If they want to progress they will have to gain some confidence to expand their approach and apply some latitude and vision to the game plan. This will not be forthcoming as long as this conservative fearful style which has been entrenched into Springbok rugby psyche as playing to our strengths since Jake White encouraged it is discarded in its entirety.
3 Dec 2009, 19:39 pm
@gunther: He won’t be far away!
Poor old John Smit does get it a bit from G10 these days!!!
3 Dec 2009, 19:39 pm
Now the bloody Irish dont want to give an early release to BJ…..well there goes the sharks chances in the super 14….damn difficult to win that titl;e when your scrum retreating so fast your scrummie runs over the fullback!!
3 Dec 2009, 19:40 pm
@276 Trans, add to that someone trying to use the nick Hater not knowing that she was already here blogging under her new nick.
3 Dec 2009, 19:40 pm
@Transformation: Wow both my earlier responses to you are being moderated, must be because I posted in Zulu.
Simon is the d00s that started this whole thing, think back to the Lions series. I don’t know what PDV did to him and his mates.
I’ve never seen such high horsed propaganda rubbish in my life. Thank goodness for the open minded people on this blog.
3 Dec 2009, 19:41 pm
@grant10: Hiya, I see David Beckham and his truly terrible hairstyle is in Cape Town too, he was at some Township near Cape Town bringing ‘soccer to the people’!!
Can I join in….get a glass of wine and let rip!!
Actually Soda will tell me off if you don’t!
3 Dec 2009, 19:41 pm
@gunther:LOL, ha ha ha ha “harden the f**k up”
@grant10: ha ha ha ha TRS…hey grant you’re killing me boet!!!
3 Dec 2009, 19:42 pm
@josh ilan: For boks to progress they need to be able to scrum….i see the great gary gold doing his damndest to try and protect Smit….but the BJ performance against Ireland and Italy makes all the protests moot!!!
Now thats a real tighthead!
3 Dec 2009, 19:42 pm
@gunther: Should the ref examine fingernails as well as studs before the game??
3 Dec 2009, 19:43 pm
grant there is a very interesting article from gary gold on the scrum ( i know you love his writing) there is even a ttable of stats for you…enjoy it is my gift to you…
3 Dec 2009, 19:43 pm
@carol: Ja…its great…weather awesome and i am going to the Draw street party tomorrow…rock bands, great food and beer…..Cape Town is rocking….
PS Dont get caught in the traffic though!
3 Dec 2009, 19:45 pm
@carol:
he should examine fingernails after the game…. we need to second horatio and the csi team to the irb….
horatio always gets his man….
3 Dec 2009, 19:47 pm
@gunther: Read it…..its insanity ….we are regressing as a rugby nation….
Smit to 2….
Smit to 3 i have cardiac arrest and require a hot blonde nurse….
Large breasts optional….a cute bum non negotiable!
3 Dec 2009, 19:47 pm
@gunther: Horatio is my favorite too!!
3 Dec 2009, 19:49 pm
@grant10:
but earlier in the season you were quoting gary as gospel..
has he lost his credibility now because you don’t agree with him?
fetch another windhoek from the back of the fridge!
3 Dec 2009, 19:51 pm
@grant10: Chipping Norton does have the Victorian Street Fair tonight!
You know The Draw Street Party does somehow have the edge!!
BTW I understand long legs are also vital for anyone nursing you!
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