Jo’burg jol wasn’t rugby
22 Feb 2010
The Lions’ desire to entertain their fans will only end up torturing them, writes Keo in his weekly Business Day column.
The Stormers were aggressive in defence against the Waratahs and disciplined at the breakdown in a match that resembled rugby and not the basketball farce produced in Johannesburg on Friday night.
Everyone wants to see tries scored, but 18 of them in one match, with five coming from one team in the last 12 minutes is not a rugby match, let alone a contest.
The Lions and Chiefs may boast the highest aggregate score in Super Rugby history and the most number of tries in a match, but the most telling statistic of Friday’s night’s Chiefs 72-65 win was the 47 missed tackles. The Lions made just 38 tackles against a team who scored 72 points, while the Chiefs’ 75 tackles was boosted by having to make a good 30 in the five minutes of extra time as the Chiefs attempted to stop the Lions scoring the try that would take them within seven points of the Chiefs. That they failed to keep the Lions out was no surprise.
Compare this with the contest in Cape Town. The Stormers, victorious 27-6, made 80-plus tackles, the Waratahs 50-plus tackles and between the two teams they missed nine tackles. That is rugby. Players were committed to making tackles, keeping their shape on defence and not giving an inch. There was intensity in defence and when you have that you generally have a rugby match. There was nothing of the sort in Johannesburg.
The new breakdown law does not mean Super Rugby is now basketball. When players are disciplined and respect the rights of the ball carrier in the tackle you get a game played at a fast pace and one still played with structure and shape.
The Lions farce was unfortunately an example of how it can go wrong when there is little discipline and a total disregard for the breakdown law. The game never had shape, defence was non-existent on both sides and it was embarrassing the manner in which tries were scored from kick-offs without a hand being laid on players.
Anyone who tries to find the positive in this match is deluded. The Lions, desperate to play an expansive game, have forsaken a defensive structure that was stingy in the Currie Cup when no team scored more than three tries in a match against them and overall they had the second best defensive record in the Currie Cup.
Jake White, who consulted with the Lions during the Currie Cup, is a believer of structure first and extravagance second. Teams who can defend tend to deliver more than teams who can just attack. The ideal is to find players who can provide balance in attack and defence, and it is in this aspect that the Lions failed themselves.
It is not that these players can’t tackle because they proved otherwise in the Currie Cup. It is more a case of embracing Dick Muir’s carefree approach of expression first and expression second. But what of the consequence? Muir last week said winning wasn’t important. It was about entertainment and enjoyment. No doubt his charitable employees may have a different approach should the Lions entertain their way to 13th or 14th in the league.
Muir in his first season in charge with the Sharks a few years ago also adopted this approach and results were similar. I recall 70 plays 45 against the Crusaders in Christchurch and some other ridiculous defensive efforts as the Sharks laboured near the bottom of the table.
The next season Muir introduced John Plumtree as his assistant and forwards coach, the Sharks played with far more structure and defence determined as much in their approach as did attack, and the Sharks made the final.
For the Lions to fashion a win they need structure and Muir should remember what worked for him in his second season at the Sharks and be reminded of the scant reward for playing entertaining rugby in that first year.
The Lions, if they continue to ignore defence, are going to torture – more than entertain – their supporters.
The Stormers, with Bryan Habana inspirational, scored before and after halftime and that is the mark of a good side. Their problem in the past few seasons has been the second 40 minutes, but against the Waratahs they produced their best second 40 for some time.
The Bulls predictably crushed the Brumbies in Pretoria and the Cheetahs win in Durban was equally predictable given the history of matches between the two sides.
The Sharks have problems. I wrote it last week and it is something that will probably be written every week of this campaign.
90 Comments
22 Feb 2010, 12:09 pm
It was Basketball & Netball for these Dragons!
22 Feb 2010, 12:15 pm
But lemme be honest.
with these new interpretation of the rules…
any team can beat anyone on a given day..
Pasop virrie lions! Hou dop!
22 Feb 2010, 12:17 pm
The Stormers appear to have the best defence in the Super 14 this year.
Hopefully the tackling heroics will continue.
I was particularly glad to see Andries Bekker pull his weight.
22 Feb 2010, 12:18 pm
I agree, but I will say that ‘non rugby’ fans (my wife for example) loved it.
Like I said before, it was a freak match. Lions have a shocking defense and the Chiefs ran out of steam on 60 min.
22 Feb 2010, 12:20 pm
Who peed in your beer Keo?
22 Feb 2010, 12:22 pm
The lions game was ridulous, the highlights package is going to be a long one on Boots and All on Thursday. I’m just glad that the Lions managed to finish within the 9 point handicap that the bookies had them at, somehow…
22 Feb 2010, 12:24 pm
@What the.:
Ja … he is moeilik huh.
22 Feb 2010, 12:28 pm
ok folks lets get one thing right, Jake had no say, no input into team tactics, defensive or offensive. Yes winning ways only touched the union and it’s structures. Please do not fall for Keo’s spin.
The only thing that I agree with is that the defense can improve to what it was in the CC.
22 Feb 2010, 12:34 pm
Eish… this is exactly what I was talking about on the Bulls thread… IGNORANT MEDIA. The laws of the game are not new… The strict adherence to it is now being enforced. Geez this is getting terribly irksome as there is nothing new. Suggest you all read the following which is straight from the “LAWS OF RUGBY” as per the IRB website.
LAWS OF THE GAME RUGBY UNION 2010
Law 15 Tackle: Ball Carrier Brought to Ground
Definition of a Tackle:
A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground.
A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.
Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers.
15.2 WHEN A TACKLE CANNOT TAKE PLACE
When the ball carrier is held by one opponent and a team-mate of the ball carrier binds on to that
ball carrier, a maul has been formed and a tackle cannot take place.
15.3 BROUGHT TO THE GROUND DEFINED
(a) If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought
to ground’.
(b) If the ball carrier is sitting on the ground, or on top of another player on the ground the ball carrier has been ‘brought to ground’.
15.4 THE TACKLER
(a) When a player tackles an opponent and they both go to ground, the tackler must immediately release the tackled player.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) The tackler must immediately get up or move away from the tackled player and from the ball at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(c) The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then may play the ball from any direction.
Sanction: Penalty kick
15.5 THE TACKLED PLAYER
(a) A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Law 15 Tackle: Ball Carrier Brought to Ground
LAWS OF THE GAME RUGBY UNION 2010
(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(e) If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Tackled player must release the ball immediately
15.6 OTHER PLAYERS
(a) After a tackle, all other players must be on their feet when they play the ball. Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
Exception: Ball goes into the in-goal. After a tackle near the goal line, if the ball has been released and has gone into the in-goal any player, including a player on the ground, may ground the ball.
Law 15 Tackle: Ball Carrier Brought to Ground
After a tackle all of the players must be on their feet when they play the ball
(b) After a tackle any players on their feet may attempt to gain possession by taking the ball from the ball carrier’s possession.
(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick
22 Feb 2010, 12:34 pm
Big Vic expects even more tries (rugby 365)
Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:20
Bulls captain Victor Matfield, who will front up to a disciplinary hearing on Monday, expects the try-scoring madness that marked the first two weekends of Super 14 action to continue.
Although Week One’s 30 tries were acceptable, considering the change in focus by match officials, Round Two produced an astonishing 52 tries – an average of over seven tries a game.
There was the aberration of the 18 tries between the Chiefs and Lions in Johannesburg, but even without that game the total for the weekend would have surpassed the opening round.
And Matfield – who was cited for striking Brumbies flank Rocky Elsom around the head area in the 16th minute of his team’s 50-32 win – said the tries will continue to flow in great abundance.
Matfield felt the change in focus by match officials, where tacklers are forced to first half ‘daylight’ between themselves and the tackled player, makes it more difficult to turn over possession.
“If you have the ball in the opposition 22, it’s basically only you who can lose the ball and not the opponents winning it,” the Bulls captain told a media gathering in Pretoria – after his team had recorded their second half-century of the season.
“It’s very difficult to get your hands on the ball. It brings the necessity for a new game discipline, like kick offs, line-outs and so on.
“If you make a mistake in your own territory and forfeit possession, it will probably mean a try to the opposition.”
While Matfield feels there will be many more tries in the weeks to come, he hopes it wouldn’t lead to the “crazy” situation of the 18 tries in the Chiefs’ 72-65 win over the Lions.
While the Bulls will be sweating on the outcome of Matfield’s hearing, in Pretoria on Monday, there is some positive news on the injury front.
There is some concern over the knee injury Pierre Spies suffered in the win over the Brumbies. It looked serious, as the burly No.8 looked in pain, but he continued playing and was only replaced late in the match.
He will be assessed and a decision made on Monday.
The good news is that Springbok Dewald Potgieter looks to have made a full recovery from the knee injury that sidelined him in the first two rounds and will be available for selection for the Bulls’ encounter with the Waratahs on Saturday.
The Bulls will most likely still be without the injured duo of lock Danie Rossouw (blow to the neck) and centre Jaco Pretorius (severe bruising of a leg muscle).
However, replacements Flip van der Merwe and Stephan Dippenaar showed the real depth in the Bulls squad.
The prognoses on the return of Bakkies Botha, Chiliboy Ralepelle and Akona Ndungane remain that they will return in March
22 Feb 2010, 12:38 pm
@RugbyRulz:
I fully agree, it just shows you how clued-up these supposed “rugby journalists” are who keep talking about the supposed “new laws”.
I like the fact they are enforcing the existing rules, I just feel they need to bring back controlled rucking, that will quickly cut down on tacklers refusing to roll away.
@Icemoney:
And yet…only one try was scored in the Stormers-Waratahs match.
22 Feb 2010, 12:39 pm
So whose opinion do I take? a super rugby player who has won a world cup, tri nations and super rugby trophies, or Jake’s friend Keo?
22 Feb 2010, 12:43 pm
Icemoney, why don’t you be a big boy and simply have your own opinion
22 Feb 2010, 12:45 pm
Lions Chiefs game not a great advert for the game of rugby union. Where is the grit, determination, and discipline of defense?
22 Feb 2010, 12:45 pm
@WP Till I Die: Yes we can dream can we not. Can’t see the return of rucking as there is no safe method. Gardening is one thing but mountaineering for some was a fetish.
22 Feb 2010, 12:46 pm
that’s right boys. Let us expose these poor writers.
22 Feb 2010, 12:50 pm
@WP Till I Die:
No man.
Wasn’t it more than one, or was I already dronk.
22 Feb 2010, 12:51 pm
@Icemoney: I wouldn’t take the word of any of them, it is early days yet. Give it to half way through the S14 and then reassess. Defenses will tighten, referees will begin to notice DAYLIGHT (split second is all that is needed) and the turn-overs will happen.
The first few rounds are all about R E – E D U C A T I N G, not only players and fans. Drip feeding will flow through.
By the end of the 6Ns and S14 the IRB should have a fair idea of the state of our union.
22 Feb 2010, 12:51 pm
It is not proper rugby yes, because you cannot only get one of 20 things right and think you are doing things right.
The problem is not the laws, as the Stormers showed yet again there is a place for well-organised defensive teams even under the new interpretations or shift in focus of the laws.
The Lions showed that they are capable on attack, but still seriously lack in defense.
Defense is firstly communication and structure (line) and secondly technique.
You cannot hope to be successful without it.
22 Feb 2010, 12:52 pm
@WP Till I Die: I totally agree on bringing back rucking, I have life-long treasure on my left ribs, bring it back, I say
22 Feb 2010, 12:52 pm
Lots of people appear to be unhappy with Lions game.
“It’s just not rugby” they cry.
Maybe it is?
22 Feb 2010, 12:52 pm
Redlion … surely have something with a bit more insight to add, otherwise you are cutting your productivity at work short to waste a few valuable seconds on that posting. Eish!
22 Feb 2010, 12:52 pm
@11. WP Till I Die :
Three tries were scored and both teams were not playing running rugby like in JHB i.e. there would have been more tries if they did (maybe not as much as JHB but more)
@13. keo :
Go play with Jake
22 Feb 2010, 12:53 pm
One thing, the defense could’ve been better. Would have avoided both teams having coronaries just before the final whistle.
22 Feb 2010, 12:55 pm
@RugbyRulz:
Controlled rucking can be perfectly safe, it must just be policed properly by the referees.
As long as the players are aware that you can ruck on the general torso area, but any rucking of the face/head etc. will be punished severely, there should be no problems.
22 Feb 2010, 12:56 pm
@Dawn: @Icemoney:
Ag man, I meant three. Sorry, I meant to say “not one try was scored” in terms of referring to the Waratahs.
My bad.
22 Feb 2010, 12:58 pm
Must agree with Keo on this.
I was starting to think I was the only one who thought the Lions game was rubbish.
I thought the Cape media was bad, but the Jhb media is talking the match up as one of the best they have ever seen…!!!
Good thing the Lions didn’t win, otherwise this madness will continue for the forseeable future…
22 Feb 2010, 12:58 pm
@WP Till I Die:
Jislaaik, I need to start reading my posts before I click on “Submit Comment”.
22 Feb 2010, 12:59 pm
@WP Till I Die:
Jy laat my skrik.
Anyhoo. I’m still on a Parnell high so I ain’t brawling with Keo or anyone else today!
22 Feb 2010, 13:00 pm
lol Keo is mean.
22 Feb 2010, 13:01 pm
@RedLion:
I heard something about a new song you have?
22 Feb 2010, 13:05 pm
I didn’t watch the Lions/Chiefs game… Watch the highlights and saw a few very soft tries! Lions need to really sharpen up their defence. The thing that worries me the most is the fact that some of the Lions players through their hands in the air after the final whistle as though they had won…
Watched the Stormers and Bulls games! Bulls are hot favourites 2 weeks in and I’m happy with the Stormers! Stormers backline need to find their rhythm though!
22 Feb 2010, 13:07 pm
Agreed there was no defense in game,which is concerning.Dont know how many tackles were slipped by “captain caregous” Baywatch.He needs to go.
But on a positive note..How was that young thoroughbred colt Wandile Mjekevu?? That boy has great feet,fluidity st its best,excellent speed and an eye for space.Made a few people look foolish on weekend..His handoff/fend on Kahui on the way to his first try was a thing of beauty…19 yrs old..Todd Clever is Lion’s best player & Earl Rose must play at 10..Play Spencer/Francis at 12
22 Feb 2010, 13:08 pm
agreed- was pathetic rugby.
I’d rather watch a tight, nerve-wracking contest finishing 15-12 than the game on friday.
Rather than enforce the roll-away law, they should have allowed the likes of McCaw to continue with what they do best, but also allowed the attacking side to use the boot to clear players who were playing the role of the “limpet”.
It would soon have discouraged that sort of behaviour and lets face it, how many serious injuries have ever resulted from a little light toeing.
22 Feb 2010, 13:09 pm
@mshiniwami:
Interesting idea but who the hell do you stick at 15?
22 Feb 2010, 13:12 pm
BRING BACK RUCKING!
22 Feb 2010, 13:13 pm
The constant battle for ideologies in rugby at present is highly reminiscent of the NFL.ex: pass happy offenses,with ideology of outscoring opposition dont matter how many points defense gives up. And then old school who believes defense and structure wins championships.
As time goes on both ideologies shall be embraced,and rugby will be better for it.Just like the NFL,with trends and success of gameplan/ideologies interchanging from yr to yr.
PS-Both teams in Superbowl in 2010 were pass happy point scoring achines offenses and subpar to avg defenses.
Rugby is changing
22 Feb 2010, 13:15 pm
@PissAnt:
Play Alwyn Hollenbach at 15 when he is fit.He played there a number of times for Cheetahs.Michael Killian also an option at 15
22 Feb 2010, 13:17 pm
@mshiniwami:
You are going to sit with a very inexperienced back three there – or one that has people not accustomed to those position in recent times.
22 Feb 2010, 13:18 pm
@PissAnt:
15.Hollenbach
14.Chavanga
13.Venter
12.Spencer/Francis
11.Mjekevu
10.Rose
9.Jacques Coetzee
Please rid Lions of JP Joubert!!!!
22 Feb 2010, 13:19 pm
As soon as I saw Jake being touted as the saviour I stopped reading – was the rest good?
I do however agree with the gist of it, and a stat of 47 missed tackles is difficult to argue with.
22 Feb 2010, 13:22 pm
@mshiniwami:
I actually thought Joubert had a good game at 9.
Is Venter really the strike runner you are looking for in a 13?
Isn’t he more of a playmaker?
22 Feb 2010, 13:22 pm
What I liked about our defense is as follows:
We tackle the ball like the All Blacks used to do!
Every time we attacked the ball in the tackle and kept the player up rather than falling with him and exposing us o rolling away rule!!
Brilliant from our defense coach!
22 Feb 2010, 13:22 pm
@PissAnt:
I cant stand these arguments on experience when at present it doesnt add much to Lions and there are young players brimming with talent on bench but being kept out due to “experience” but team catches it every week.
Ex:
Grobelaar vs van Deventer
JP Joubert vs Jacques Coetzee
Spencer vs Rose
Doppies vs Walter Venter
22 Feb 2010, 13:24 pm
When we attacked the ball they seem to lose it more often!!!
The Stormers are ahead in this area and the bulls wil catch o with their great coaching structures!
22 Feb 2010, 13:24 pm
@mshiniwami:
I suppose as a non-supporter I look at perfomances game to game so in the long run you are probably right.
22 Feb 2010, 13:25 pm
@PissAnt:
Venter is ideally a 12 yes but can play 13,is a direct runner and a good defender.better than van Rensburg who was getting abused by Kahui
22 Feb 2010, 13:26 pm
@mshiniwami:
Look Kahui will abuse most midfields the guy is bloody class, but from what I have seen from Venter he seemed more adapt at creating space than hitting it.
22 Feb 2010, 13:26 pm
@PissAnt:
Im not a Lions supporter neither but am a supporter of good rugby for the benefit of SA rugby.
22 Feb 2010, 13:26 pm
@WP Till I Die: Controlled… can recall my father teaching my brother how to garden the ball, my husband teaching my sons and not one of them was ever penalised for stomping. Amazing considering my father was an 8, my husband a lock, my brother and 8 and 13 (bugger was fast), my eldest son a hooker and my baby another 8 and part-time 13. We won’t go near flirting the offside line
All forwards with correct technique… sadly saw some pretty horrible stuff over the years… Hooker son broken fingers (during an uppercrust school game) whilst placing the ball, definitely the worst. Never had half the cowboy dirty stuff playing local club rugby. Suspension there were severe, school rugby (spiffing stuff)handed out a detention… pfft rubbish administrators.
I think rucking is good for the game but I still don’t think it will return.
22 Feb 2010, 13:28 pm
There was nothing wrong with rules in the first place. The defensive side now has no rights to contest at the breakdown and it makes it no contest really. Brusouw, mcaw making a tackle and geting to their feet steeling the ball in one movement was fantastic to watch but now the more ‘bulkier’ no.6 like Burger would be prefered to a real fetcher
22 Feb 2010, 13:28 pm
wasn’t kevin putt was coach when the saders pumped the sharks so badly and they wooden spooned?
22 Feb 2010, 13:28 pm
@PissAnt:
fair enough.
22 Feb 2010, 13:30 pm
@mshiniwami:
Then it is also vital that exuberance is balanced and kept in check with experience otherwise you will sit with a situation of 65 points scored but also 72 conceded.
22 Feb 2010, 13:35 pm
The lions would do well imo if they gave that youngster Burton Francis ithink, a start. Hes been far more impressive than Mr Spencer who looks over the hill at this stage. It could be that hes taking time to adjust to super rugby again and could get better, but time is somethig the lions dont have on their side. Burton looks like a reliable kicker as well and given enough opportunity and experience, he could be another morne steyn.
22 Feb 2010, 13:38 pm
Funny nothing being said about Jake White influence on the Lions, was he just employed as adviser during the currie cup? Dont know much of whats happening at the lions
22 Feb 2010, 13:47 pm
@Mustard: You are 100% right, there was never anything wrong with the Laws… It was misinterpretation that stymied the game. Problem for a number of years is the pilfering was not legal, as per the Laws of Rugby. It was let go to the detriment of the game and now the players and fans need to RELEARN the was it was, is and was meant to be… IRB has the Laws of Rugby on its website… free, absolutely no charge.
22 Feb 2010, 13:48 pm
We finished 5th in ****’s first season. What’s this about us and the bottom of the table?
22 Feb 2010, 13:50 pm
@Mustard:
It seems like he was only used during the Currie Cup.
That all being said, call me stupid, but how do rugby players forget how to defend in the space of the Currie Cup up to now? Surely if Jake introduced great defensive patterns the players should at least remember the fundamentals of them.
22 Feb 2010, 13:51 pm
thank you thank you… but you’re too old to say jol
22 Feb 2010, 13:53 pm
@Cyborg:
It is not so much a case of forgetting, it is a case of changing the structures under which you operate, train and play.
A good defense takes a damn long time to nail down.
Communication, repetition and most importantly, consistency in selection (where players form an understanding with the guy next to them).
The last one mentioned is probably the biggest difference where **** has played a different team almost every week.
You get the feeling it is a case of; ‘here is the ball guys, just play the game’
22 Feb 2010, 14:11 pm
“The Lions, if they continue to ignore defence, are going to torture – more than entertain – their supporters.”
Muir will patch up the Lions defence, again the “first” team has been together for only three weeks, you (Keo) surely out of all people didnt expect the Lions to win against the Chiefs, infact most people didn’t expect the Lions to lose by a converted try. One good thing about this weekend’s game is that the Lions cannot get worse than they were this weekend (at their worst they scored 65 points against a good team).
@59. Cyborg :
Jake is a rugby messiah who knows all and brings life to dead rugby teams,heals defenses,perfects scrums etc… Guess the Lions players are just a dumb and forgetful bunch.
22 Feb 2010, 14:15 pm
@SpringbokSarah: Jol has been part of the SA lingo for centuries. You can never be too old to say it or pursue it.
22 Feb 2010, 14:24 pm
@stormer in a teacup:
“Jol” used to be slang in some parts for kissing…similar to “snog”, “lash”, “druk”, vry”…
22 Feb 2010, 14:27 pm
Keo’s logic is very sound and shows why he writes about rugby and doesn’t coach or play it. He knows very little and writes to create hype and hysteria.
I suppose the Lions should have sat back at 72-28 or whatever it was and concentrated on defence.
Where the Chiefs not playing in this game? Or was it the Lion’s ‘fault’ that there were so many points scored?
Come on Keo write some real stories or have your transformation and quota stories run dry?
22 Feb 2010, 14:37 pm
stooooooooooooooormers!
22 Feb 2010, 14:47 pm
@Oubaas2009: my previous comment should read ‘not very sound’.
22 Feb 2010, 15:19 pm
Good article Keo…
gotta keep things in perspective…
The Stormers defence was really impressive… great to see such heart and commitment from 1 to 22 for the full 80… haven’t seen that at Newlands in years…
it’s all most of us fans ask for… if the players give that, the results are gonna take care of themselves…
well done to the players and coaching staff…
also I love the gees that is so evident in the team… goosebump stuff… even in a boiling hot Cape Town…
22 Feb 2010, 15:38 pm
Its obvious things arent well at the Sharks , but it seems so many have adopted the “kick a dog when he’s down” approach. eish man wheres the love
22 Feb 2010, 16:10 pm
Keo is a tool. He does not mention that his fantastic Stormers team could not score a try in 40 mins of second half rugby against us and Judas Fourie only scored from a stupid mistake. Our defence was not that bad then.
22 Feb 2010, 16:11 pm
65 points against last year’s losing finalist? I’d say we’re still in the running.
>^..^<
22 Feb 2010, 16:12 pm
@WP Till I Die: Well almost – the etmology of the word jol (of Scandinavian origins) means yule, or yule-tide, as in Christmas. If refers to the Christmas party, the sharing of gifts… so I suppose people could share STIs?!?
22 Feb 2010, 17:07 pm
This may all be true Keo, but they will surely outscore the Sharks on a bad day.
This then goes to show, “doesn’t matter how bad things are, they can still get much worse”….
22 Feb 2010, 17:43 pm
we got two points from the game. thats more than in most matches last year. and to be honest i’ve been a lions fan for a while and I enjoyed seeing them running in a few tries. and its not the lions RU that keep on changing the laws “to make the game flow more” or “make it more exciting” or “attract more spectators because we are losing them to other sports disciplines in AUS” etc etc etc
22 Feb 2010, 17:53 pm
i apologise i should not have said “changed the laws” but rather “reinterpret them”, which is actually one and the same thing. As an interpretation is an explanation of how something works i.e a law, so if you change the interpretation you change the meaning or what that law means!
22 Feb 2010, 18:14 pm
@Captain1: No, Muir replaced Putt mid way through the 2005 Super 12 (late March), he was on a temp contract just for that super 12 then. The Sharks did achieve their one win that season (against the Brumbies, who can forget Ruan’s try in that match), the first game Muir was in charge of. He was in charge when the team lost by a big score to the ‘Saders, that was close to the end of the season. But had an impossible mission that year.
Mark Keohane, does however, get it completely wrong (unsurprisingly), but not for that reason. This segment, is a load of k@k:
”
Muir in his first season in charge with the Sharks a few years ago also adopted this approach and results were similar. I recall 70 plays 45 against the Crusaders in Christchurch and some other ridiculous defensive efforts as the Sharks laboured near the bottom of the table.
The next season Muir introduced John Plumtree as his assistant and forwards coach, the Sharks played with far more structure and defence determined as much in their approach as did attack, and the Sharks made the final.
For the Lions to fashion a win they need structure and Muir should remember what worked for him in his second season at the Sharks and be reminded of the scant reward for playing entertaining rugby in that first year.
”
1. Muir’s first season was 2005, or rather half of it. The ‘saders score Mark Keohane mentions was in this season.
2. Plumtree joined the Sharks in late July 2006, for the Currie Cup season that year.
3. In Muir’s first full season 2006, when Plumtree was not involved. Campo was however, hardly defence minded. The Sharks finished 5th, and missed out on a semifinal spot on a points difference of 1, the Bulls pipping them to 4th. Not “laboured near the bottom of the table”, as Mark Keohane erroneously states.
4. It was Muir’s foresight in the 2005 and 2006 seasons, including hiring his friend Plumtree, who was out of a job, that enabled the 2007 season. Not Plumtree. Cause and effect.
Muir is an excellent coach. Truely brilliant imo. Excellent motivator, astute tactician and talent spotter. He built the current Sharks team from nothing. Most of the players that have done the business for the Sharks over the past 4 seasons, he plucked from club rugby and below. When he started there were a handful of Springboks playing for the Sharks, mostly old and past it.
When he had finished, almost the entire XV were Boks, capped within the last few seasons. The RWC winning XV was a 3rd Sharks players, with the Sharks making up the biggest component of the RWC squad.
He did this from a position of Super 12 wooden spooners and threats of relegation in 2005.
It’s almost laughable that Mark Keohane thinks Muir is the failure and Plumtree the success. Plumtree since he has had complete control of the Sharks, has presided over a slow collapse the more Muir’s memory fades. The side has not ‘clicked’ properly in over a season now, they can’t pass and attack longer than a few phases. Can’t even defend now, against a poor Cheetahs side.
Keohane lauds Rassie Erasmus and to a lesser degree Allister Coetzee. It would be wrong to say the performance on the weekend was due to the players, just look at the Sharks. Clearly the coach/es, have a significant effect on team performance, much as the deniers of the current Bok coaching team don’t want you to believe this. But Rassie imo is an average coach, okay but not on **** Muir’s level.
I fully expect **** Muir, like he did at the Sharks, to take a side of unknowns to the top over a few seasons. They will become a very good side. The first half on the weekend reminded me very much of **** Muir’s Sharks sides.
Mark Keohane, as always is full of tendious inaccuracies, laboured points and outright lies. My question to him is, if **** Muir is useless, Peter de Villiers is useless, who is coaching the Springboks to all this success? John Smit? The same man, who along with the other 12 Boks in the XV on the weekend, produced the worst display I’ve ever seen from a Sharks team? Must be Gary Gold then, well done to him. Also the only one involved with the Stormers and the only one that never gets kak on here.
We’ve seen this all before from Mark Keohane – just look at his views on Jake White and how they changed depending on how the wind blew.
22 Feb 2010, 18:15 pm
Ag fnok hier gaan ons al weer … As I said in another thread on a similar topic today the writers on this site will not have anything good to say about the Lions now that Winning Ways are no more at the Lions. We will have to endure all the stories about what Jake would have done (WWJD?) as if Muir’s an idiot that cannot see the need for a better defence. The Lions will come right under Muir. It’s going to take time and much experimentation. The players desperately needed a coach that’s got the guts to take risks, giving players space to show what they can do. In the past it was all donkey rugby and some players – like Rose – couldn’t play their natural game. By opening things up Muir can see who’s got what it takes. It’s a learning exercise. Things will evetually gel … and then this team’s going to play the brand of rugby most want to see. RIP dinorugby.
22 Feb 2010, 18:22 pm
@Pot Blou Gevaar: ‘this may all be true’? :s
What’s true? The ‘facts’ Mark Keohane pulled out of his behind?
His version of events during the 2005/2006/2007 Super rugby seasons. Is not what happened. He will be proved completely and utterly wrong in his dislike of **** Muir and attributing the Sharks performances in their better seasons to Plumtree.
Plumtree could well be out of a job by the end of the season. Maybe even before the end.
**** Muir will have his ‘no brand’ Super rugby team midtable and be contenders for a Currie Cup title.
22 Feb 2010, 18:47 pm
@Archbishop Jeremiah Jeffery Jonnas:
We make too much out of that match
Jonker as expected happened to be a truly S African patriot, with a neutral referee the margins would have been different.
I haven’t noticed any new Sharks player lately that hasn’t played under Muir, as a backline specialist, Muir must have taken a lot of satisfaction with the combined performance of Ndungane, Murray, Jacobs and Pietersen last Friday, I would imagine?
22 Feb 2010, 18:49 pm
When **** Muir ended up at the Sharks the question was asked how the Lions could have missed the opportunity to pull Muir in at the Lions (especially after his successes with Pirates). Now that Muir is at the Lions (eventually!) we’re again criticised for pulling him in (and not stick with JWWW and its chosen one … Allister Coetzee). When Muir was appointed everyone should have known what rugby to expect. Also consider that Muir started with a new squad of players not familiar to him … very few Springboks in the Lions team. After all the rubbish dished-up by the Lions in recent years is it not appropriate to demolish what was constructed before and start building something new? Completely new? That’s what Muir’s doing and I will support him in this effort. A whole new mindset is needed at the Lions. Gerricke will greatly assist in bringing this about. Whatch this team grow in leap and bounds in the next 18 months.
22 Feb 2010, 19:32 pm
@Hondo: I don’t really know what your point is tbh. :s
The Lions showed alot of heart to come back from the deficit they had. They never gave up, their heads didn’t drop. They are a ‘no brand’ side populated by club players, the over the hill and those unwanted elsewhere. Yet they have some of the hardest elements to instill in a team, just two matches into **** Muirs tenure. Discipline, belief in the team and eachother, good attacking skills, good interlinking between backs and forwards. Mark Keohane and most of the “journalists” on this site, talk endlessly about ‘structure’, can they even define it? Can you? I see alot of solid foundations in this Lions team.
Three of the players you mention **** Muir brought through. JP was playing age grade for the Pumas. Odwa was a Border player and Bulls squad player. Murray was playing club rugby for Jaguars and age grade for KZN. All these, like the current Lions team, were ‘no brand’ they had little pedigree back in 2005/2006 and few knew of them.
I very much doubt **** Muir would enjoy seeing how they are playing, two seasons into Plumtree coaching them. Compared to how they played under him. He tried to sign Murray and rates them all highly I would say. I would further note, that in the areas Plumtree is supposed to be good at, the forwards and breakdown, the decline has been even more alarming than the back play.
Plumtree is a highly conservative coach, who not only does not trust his players to play what is in front of them. Worse than that, with many of them he just doesn’t trust them full stop – hence hiring an over the hill pom that should be going to the knackers yard and steadfastly refusing to alter a selection policy, which has no room for rookies to stake a claim. Even the likes of Adi, Ruan, Murray, Springbok capped and hishly capable players. All get passed over for players of less ability (Dumond, Strauss, Swanepoel) that don’t make as many errors because they don’t try anything. This isn’t the type of player and management that takes you to the top.
22 Feb 2010, 21:10 pm
@stormer in a teacup: no no no, I can jol… and people in their 20s can jol… however a man of Mr keo’s… maturity level, can not jol
22 Feb 2010, 21:32 pm
@Archbishop Jeremiah Jeffery Jonnas:
Best post I have ever read on this site.
23 Feb 2010, 02:17 am
For those who applaud the strictest possible application of every law — and, remember, rugby doesn’t have rules; it has LAWS — you’d surely be campaigning to have every scrum blown up for “foot up” or “not in straight”?
23 Feb 2010, 05:40 am
@Archbishop Jeremiah Jeffery Jonnas:
Interesting observation, I tend to agree with most.
Btw: how many tries did the combined Shark’s backline scored since Mentz, Barritt and Styen packed their bags?
23 Feb 2010, 15:39 pm
@TheTackler:
Tackles,
it seems everyone is SO desperate to ‘speed up the game’ these days that we are diluting alot of its complexity and, therefore, its attraction.
Im fairly sick of hearing referees ‘coaching’ the game with general “hands off” suggestions so that we see more flow. But I can put up with it. Im also damn tired of seeing obstruction in the backlines with dummy runners but, heck, with so little space these days I can put up with that too.
Forward-passes ? well there are far too many masquerading as ‘line balls’. Theyre not, but so many tricky angles run these days at pace and mistakes are forgivable. But anyone can see a clear obvious fwd-pass, so lets wehistle them !
BUT
1. straight feeds to scrums ! why do we call the no2 ‘hookers’ after all ? Theyre not hooking at the moment, thats fer sure.
2. straight throws to lineouts !
3. clear offside lines, whistled by the linesman.
These are non-negotiable.
23 Feb 2010, 15:43 pm
@Archbishop Jeremiah Jeffery Jonnas:
Goode is hardly ‘over the hill…..knackered’ at 29yrs.
He’s a **** player, yes, but hardly an OAP. The Lions signed King Carlos at 36yrs and noone made too many remarks about his age then.
The Sharks start the season with 2 losses. Im sure Plums has more spine than some of the Sharks fans are showing. Get in behind your team, the Chiefs got all the way to the Final’09 and their start was similar.
23 Feb 2010, 15:54 pm
@Black Panther: @87 Exactly BP , no point in driving the nails into the coffin when the legs have not given in yet.
23 Feb 2010, 20:23 pm
People, remember, these new interpretation is only for Watson & Co S14 Circus (I don’t know about the TN). But all other Test and World Cup will be a totally different story all together! The Northern purest will not stand for this one way rugby spectacle.
I don’t know where in the rule book the word “DAYLIGHT” are mentioned. If you remain on your feet, you have all rights! And If you get back to your feet, after releasing the ball, you have all rights before a ruck is formed.
And for Punk Sake, with night games, these clowns will NEVA EVA see any daylight!!!!
23 Feb 2010, 21:05 pm
@Black Panther: Carlos is 34, not 36. And just about everyone here had something to say about his age – most of it not flattering. You might have been on the loo at the time, but I assure you it was debated.
But I don’t think this is the point Jeremiah is making. He’s comparing Goode to the talent a team like the Sharks had, and should currently have playing at flyhalf. Goode is simply not nearly good enough.
@Archbishop Jeremiah Jeffery Jonnas: Well said. I have a feeling **** has already started to turn this big old tanker around. Maybe my dreams of a home semi this year were a little ambitious but, in the words of Phil Collins…
tru-dum tru-dum tru-dum… I can feel it coming in the air…
>^..^<
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