Entertainment is winning
15 Mar 2010
The Bulls and Stormers are playing intelligent rugby, writes Keo in his weekly Business Day newspaper column.
There are good rugby times in SA — traditional times with the added allure that everyone is included in the festivities; not just a white minority.
The good news is that the Bulls (read Northern Transvaal) loom as giants of the game, while in Cape Town the Stormers (read Western Province) are rediscovering an ability to maul, scrum and play with pragmatism and flair. The northern-southern derby can’t come soon enough because it should be the game of the tournament and hopefully there’s a second one to come in the playoffs.
Both teams are playing the best rugby in the competition and, as the cliché goes, when the Bulls and Province are strong, so too is South African rugby.
The Sharks continue to frustrate themselves and disappoint their followers, but this is a province and now a Super 14 franchise that has rarely grown talent, but rather bought success, even though the millions spent on out-of-town superstars has yielded only one Currie Cup title in 15 years and not one Super Rugby title.
The Sharks, in the days when they were known as the Banana Boys for slipping on a peel every time they challenged for Currie Cup A-section status, never earned promotion to the Currie Cup through performance. It required a competition format expansion to accommodate the Durbanites, and when they finally made it into the big league of South African domestic rugby they proved the leaders in the era of shamateurism; that’s when the game was still amateur but the odd team treated it as professional and paid big money to build a team.
The Sharks were this team. They created a culture of expensive player imports, with the occasional dud buys. It could explain why the mercenaries of Durban have always teased more than pleased when it comes to winning competitions.
It is annoying to watch a team with so much resource fail so often. Watching the Sharks is like watching Real Madrid in the European Cup. They have the stars but too many of them have to be taught the local culture instead of being born into it, and in moments of stress there is a trend for these imports to stumble more easily than fight.
After all, the Sharks are a team for too many and a home for too few.
With the Bulls and Stormers there is enough emphasis on homegrown talent and the integration of big names is balanced with investment of locals.
Heyneke Meyer, after a turbulent start, returned Bulls rugby to its core values of power, precision and a kicking No 10. As the side grew and evolved, so did their all-round game. Where the Bulls have taught themselves to be expressive, the Stormers have allowed themselves to be taught to be conservative when the situation demands this kind of rugby intelligence.
Defence has always been a strength of SA ’s best teams, as has a forward-based game. Overseas commentators criticise it because their teams have little means to counter it. So they rely on the perceived fragile South African psyche and inferiority complex to condemn it as dinosaur rugby.
When South African teams try to play like Australian and New Zealand teams and base everything on attack, they invariably take a pasting (read the Lions) and it is no coincidence that they also become popular tourists because they pose no threat.
The Bulls, in the past five years, have lost this inferiority complex and the need to be liked. They do what works for them and not what will make them popular. The Stormers, with Allister Coetzee the hands-on influence in this year’s coaching set-up, have finally adopted a similar approach. Entertainment, says Coetzee, is winning. Supporters want a winning team and in Pretoria and Cape Town they currently have them. Long may both continue to win — and entertain.
Defence is 50 % of the game because half the game is played without the ball. South African supporters should take pride in matches won on defence and not irresponsible attack.
The Bulls and Stormers in the competition have played with intelligence and belief in their style of play, which has substance and is bringing success. The Lions, as gets written every week, have bought into the illusion that attack, regardless of its merits, is more important than the result.
– In the new issue of Business Day Sport Monthly magazine, FREE with this Friday’s newspaper, Keo explains why overseas-based players should be selected for the Springboks.
416 Comments
15 Mar 2010, 12:04 pm
entertaining try-leaking dragons!
15 Mar 2010, 12:08 pm
hey man, keo watches champions league footie!
15 Mar 2010, 12:09 pm
1. What has the white minority got to do with this article?
2. The Bulls aren’t playing a defensive game at the moment.
3. Having a dig at the Sharks again, I see.
4. Strange article.
15 Mar 2010, 12:09 pm
Go Bulllllleeeee and Goats !!!!!!
15 Mar 2010, 12:09 pm
its simple …Bulls have 0 quotas …
15 Mar 2010, 12:10 pm
jeez, stick the boot into the sharks week?
Didn’t keo slate the stormers after the Brumbies loss?
Haven’t the stormers also bought themselves to relative success so far.And by “buying”…I refer to players that have performed at CC,S14 and international stage already?
not that i have anything against this but pot calling the kettle black sort of stuff….
15 Mar 2010, 12:12 pm
Keo,
I liked it, but wait for the okes to climb into your statement of the Sharks not being able to play or grow home-grown talent vs. the Stormers and Bulls…
I see a lot of names being mentioned in the next 200 posts with original provinces following each name to make a point!
15 Mar 2010, 12:14 pm
For the record, I cannot see a serious investment in Cape youth since Rassie took over.
15 Mar 2010, 12:14 pm
@PissAnt:
Keo’s happy with a mercenary mentality, as long as it’s the Stormers benefiting from it.
15 Mar 2010, 12:16 pm
…and let’s face it, it’s only 5 games in so far.
things tend to go tits up quickly in this competition.
15 Mar 2010, 12:18 pm
@Tacitus:
I had a discussion with someone not a week ago, about which boys we see in Stormers/WP top structures currently actually being products of some of the most successful schools in SA, not to mention the two most successful uni’s in SA (based on Varsity Cup for the last 3 years)…
Compared to which guys were bought…
In my view, WP rugby youth structures are an abortion (when it comes to the management from WP rugby union that is of course).
15 Mar 2010, 12:20 pm
oh keo, you are going to get it from the Sharks fans for these lines “the Sharks…never earned promotion to the Currie Cup through performance. It required a competition format expansion to accommodate the Durbanites”
The funny thing is that some in our country vehemently disagree that SARU as the custodians of sa rugby must “accommodate” the South Eastern Cape region into super rugby.
15 Mar 2010, 12:22 pm
Well, at least Habana and Fourie aren’t mercenaries. They went down to Cape Town out of the goodness of their hearts. The Stormers aren’t a team, they’re a home…
By the way, was this emphasis on culture just maybe a subtle compliment to the success of the Bulls and their “traditional culture”?
Nah, couldn’t have been. Not from Keo.
15 Mar 2010, 12:24 pm
Ok, so is there a problem living in Durban? If players gravitate to 2 teams then you have to ask why.
These questions are no different to anyone seeking employment.
15 Mar 2010, 12:24 pm
@PissAnt:
PA, last week you picked the canes to beat the stormers on saturday, care to explain how you came to that assumption
15 Mar 2010, 12:26 pm
Please man habana and fourie will be at the stormers until 2011 and then you won’t see them for dust…
Oh ja I’m sure they’ll keep their homes in cape town.. or have they rented?
After all the stormers are a home not a team..
15 Mar 2010, 12:26 pm
@PissAnt:
if I understand correctly, hougaard,diepenaar and maybe even watermeyer didn’t even make the WP craven week side.and flippie couldn’t get a game.
so much for talent identification in the cape.
15 Mar 2010, 12:27 pm
@st.a.t.w:
Are you going to confront every person who legimately thought the Canes would take it? A few reasons at the time were:
1. The Canes were smarting from their loss to the Cheetahs;
2. The Kiwi teams enjoy visiting Cape Town
3. They would have recovered from jet lag
4. The altitude would not have been a factor
5. They have a good record against the Stormers
Accept it. Not everyone rates your Stormers as unbeatable.
15 Mar 2010, 12:28 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl: Watermeyer is from Pta
15 Mar 2010, 12:31 pm
@Tacitus: Well tough titties for them then
..not unbeatable like yr Bulls hey..?
15 Mar 2010, 12:33 pm
@Tacitus:
the point is not that you thought the canes could win, it’s that you and some of the others gave the stormers no chance in hell of beating the canes
15 Mar 2010, 12:34 pm
Bulls can still up their game defensively…
Stormers can stillup their game by focussing until after the ref’s final whistle…
still a long way to go…
but hell… you gotta love having two SA sides at one and two on the log… when has that ever happened before…??
Now we just need the results to go the way of the Cheetahs (not THIS weekend) the Sharks and the Lions… Any team can beat any team this year…
15 Mar 2010, 12:38 pm
the dissing of the bananaskins/sharks is a tad superficial.
since business day is targeted at businessmen, surely the slant should have been on how the sharks management built a franchise with limited home resources?
a franchise cannot generate revenue until it starts winning consistently so the process of getting a winning team/habit has to be done smartly and gradually by growing resources and revenue.
to a businessman, the sharks would be seen as a good business model on how to grow a franchise using smart tactics.
as opposed to say ec, who allegedly have all the resources but cannot build a franchise.
or even stormers and bulls, with all their resources but enduring fallow seasons?
15 Mar 2010, 12:39 pm
@ st.a.t.w
Now you have been vindicated then haven’t you?
Now take a calmette and bask I’m the glory ..
15 Mar 2010, 12:40 pm
It ain’t over till the fat referee sings.
15 Mar 2010, 12:41 pm
@st.a.t.w:
Really a sum of factors at the time:
* Stormers struggle traditionally to put two good performances together.
* Hurricanes loves CPT, 2nd week in SA so used to it, plus they were fielding their full strength side, one that has played in semi’s and finals in the last 4 to 5 years.
* Stormers have a great defense, but I feared their midfield (read De Jongh) was inable to spark creativity in attack – hence if they were not able to build a good lead and score tries, the Canes have the ability to score 14 to 21 points in 10 minutes against what would have been a tired Stormers defence.
* Rain was predicted.
15 Mar 2010, 12:42 pm
Or bask in the glory.. Your choice..
15 Mar 2010, 12:45 pm
@ufo: Too bad UFO. Stormers WILL lose this weekend. Rather hope the nearest contenders loses this weekend, like the Bulls had last week.
15 Mar 2010, 12:45 pm
@st.a.t.w:
I don’t know where you pulled that idea from. If anything, the Stormers were the favourites against the Canes. Although I did think the Canes might suprise them, I went for the Stormers on Superbru.
I was utterly suprised by the margin of victory, though. Ddin’t see the game, but can only imagine that the Canes were very poor on the day, cause the Stormers aren’t 20 points better than them.
15 Mar 2010, 12:46 pm
don’t know if anyone at Newlands saw/heard this…
before the game the Hurricanes come out to warm up… they jog along the grandstand touch-line towards the Craven stands…
some “Cape Cane” (and Stormers supporters) start calling to Nonu…
“Ma’a… Ma’a… Ma’a Ma’a Ma’a Ma’a…” hell it sounded funny… like bleating sheep…
on the other side of the field we wondered whether Nonu thought they were greeting him or insulting him…
15 Mar 2010, 12:46 pm
Pissant
So you took a hiding at the bookies then !
15 Mar 2010, 12:47 pm
@PissAnt: What about de Jongh, Hoffman, Koster, Duvenhage and Hartezenberg? I know there has to be a couple more.
15 Mar 2010, 12:53 pm
sad to see all the NZ flags @ Newlands … what a disgrace.
15 Mar 2010, 12:54 pm
@5t0rmer54eva:
De Jongh and Duvenhage first seasons at top levels (I mentioned top levels).
Koster never progressed much beyong a maiden CC season. Hoffman Varsity Cup and Vodacom Cup with some CC experience.
Hartzenberg? Where is he?
I am looking at the top 22 Stormers players currently, or the expanded 28 who has done duty in the Super 14 so far.
15 Mar 2010, 12:55 pm
@Zulu_baby: cullerts. you can’t take them anywhere.
15 Mar 2010, 12:55 pm
@gunther:
As always!
15 Mar 2010, 12:57 pm
@Zulu_baby:
Yeah, but you had to see the calibre of the NZ/Canes supporters. The bottom of the gene pool barrel at best
Speaks volumes about the locals who *choose* to support Kiwi teams…
15 Mar 2010, 12:58 pm
@Zulu_baby:
I’d like to know more about these Capies who support NZ teams. Personally, I’ve never actually noticed them on TV, but judging by the number of times they are mentioned by bloggers and in some articles on this site, it seems there are a substantial number of them.
Are these guys attending the game in good spirits, or are they going there deliberately to be antagonistic and negative? The reason I ask is that it seems as if they support ANY NZ team against the Stormers, rather than a particular NZ team specifically.
Surely it takes a strange kind of mentality to make all the effort to attend games at the Stormers home stadium with that purpose.
I mean, if I lived in Cape Town, I would support the Bulls when they played there, but I’m not going to go all the way to the game just to support whichever team is playing against the home team on any given weekend.
You’ve got to be a bit of an obsessed maniac to do this. Even more so to do this on a weekly basis.
15 Mar 2010, 12:59 pm
@PissAnt: 34
Hartzenberg playing Vodacom Cup. He featured for the Stormers in that pre-season encounter against Boland, but I’m not sure if that counts. He’s a big boy, ate all his mielie pap growing up.
15 Mar 2010, 13:00 pm
@Zulu_baby:
‘s a free country.
Let them support who they like.
15 Mar 2010, 13:00 pm
hey all, awesome performance byteh stormers want to see what they do to teh cheetahs this weekend and newlands will be full
15 Mar 2010, 13:03 pm
@Tacitus: Tac I believe these are a hangover from the days of apartheid I have personally experienced some of these folk who will support anyone else except the local team, because back in the day their kind was not allowed, some people harbour a lot of bitterness
15 Mar 2010, 13:03 pm
@Zulu_baby: 33. In some ways I think its great. With the Sharks demise this year we have heard much carping from the Stormers supporters (after their many years of success at S14) and suprisingly enough from those Surrender ****** (Lions) followers.
With those NZ, Canes flags/jerseys at Newlands, we can see that although some of the people at Newlands think the Stormers walk on water, even though they have yet to tour, others don’t care and would rather support another “more exciting” team.
Methinks the Stormers may have peaked too early, like the All Blacks regularly do between WCs. The business end of the competition is yet to come. The Bulls have been there and been successful at that end, and funnily enough those “useless” Sharks have been there too, repeatedly, when the rest of SA S14 teams were walking bonus points.
15 Mar 2010, 13:05 pm
@PissAnt:
i’m sorry but i don’t buy it
15 Mar 2010, 13:06 pm
OH DEAR HEAVENS
15 Mar 2010, 13:07 pm
Cape Town based NZ supporters are almost as bad as your run-of-the-mill, garden variety Bulls supporter… Almost
15 Mar 2010, 13:07 pm
@4thwiseman
Looks like he ate everybody elses too..
How long before some bright spark tries to turn him into a prop?
15 Mar 2010, 13:08 pm
@4thWiseMan:
Yeah I know who he is hence I wondered where he was – not been keeping an eye on the VC at all so far.
15 Mar 2010, 13:08 pm
Oh well, wrt to the hatchet job of an article, it looks like the Stormers are following the Sharks model of expensive imports and mercenaries.
Hopefully fellow other team supporters await to pile it on and kickem in the teeth when they are down – when this system will inevitably fail.
Talk about glass houses.
Over-and-out
15 Mar 2010, 13:08 pm
@st.a.t.w: I agree PA shame on you and you live in CT
15 Mar 2010, 13:09 pm
@st.a.t.w:
Huh?
Dont buy what?
15 Mar 2010, 13:10 pm
@PissAnt: At least their in the mix, the Louw brothers are local and they are both in their mid 20′s.
15 Mar 2010, 13:10 pm
Keo, I don’t think you should mock the Sharks for not achieving much in the last 15 years because wp/stormers have not exactly set the world a light despite having a huge pool of talent to draw from.
15 Mar 2010, 13:12 pm
@PissAnt:
STATW is on a crusade to right all perceived wrongs done to his team by doubters, naysayers, critics and supporters of rival teams in general.
You dared to predict a loss for them against the Canes, and now you have to face the music. So if you want his approval, never diss the Stormers again. You hear?
15 Mar 2010, 13:13 pm
@Tacitus:
Tac… some are there just to get in the faces of the local supporters… but most are just there to support their team… and exchange friendly banter…
we had one young guy (Stormers supporter) who was RIPPING into the Canes supporters big time… was helluva funny… and they responded in kind… no nasty stuff… actually added to the fun of the game…
that and us Caning them…
I don’t understand the guys supporting the Canes/ABs… they say it’s for historic reasons… but things have moved on… the guys who wave the old flag do so for historic reasons… who I also don’t understand… but no one accepts them…
for the record IMO both crowds are wrong and should both get with the new SA programme…
15 Mar 2010, 13:14 pm
@Tacitus:
on the west coast they support the bulls.
go to paternoster and see all the bulls flags flying from the fishermen’s houses
15 Mar 2010, 13:15 pm
The funniest thing was seeing the local cane fans waving the kiwi flag. WTF?
15 Mar 2010, 13:16 pm
The Stormers defensive coach is a guy called Jacques Nienaber, does anybody know anything about him. I reckon he they should give him a raise.
15 Mar 2010, 13:17 pm
@ufo: mmmmm i know of some idiot that sings “kill the boer they are rapists” also for historical reasons!
maybe the white people should sing “enslave the black man” for historical reasons???
15 Mar 2010, 13:19 pm
@Tacitus:
I thought it was a pretty fair assumption (assumption since nobody knows exactly what will happen beforehand) given some current and historical key factors…
Of course, as a supporter I am delighted that they seem to be shaking some historical tags as once-off wonders that cannot string good performances together over a couple of weeks and a team that finally plays 80 minutes.
Jaque it seemed finally realised he is wearing a Stormers jersey and played a good game and De Jongh had his best game at 12 this year – all things which is lovely to see, but cannot be predicted accurately 24 hours before kick-off.
15 Mar 2010, 13:20 pm
The competition is not even at its halfway stage yet, but we’re gloating as if a SA team already won it just because two of our teams are sitting on top.
When will we ever learn?
Cape Town based NZ supporters have their own reasons, in many cases very personal reasons, for their choice. Much like the people waving the old flag at Bok matches.
15 Mar 2010, 13:24 pm
@Tisme:
as I said… I don’t understand either side… but I’mnot from either of those groups so don’t can’t speak from theirPOVs… IMO we should leave history in the books (without forgetting it though) and move forward as one nation…
I know is sounds corny but I’m a HUGE believer in the new SA… warts and all and even ugly step-sisters…!!
15 Mar 2010, 13:25 pm
@ufo: What you perceive as being wrong and moving on is not always easy or for the best. The Jewish race remind all and sundry that they have been and always will be persecuted. Is it fair? Is it our fault? Probably no to both… BUT! should we forget? Emphatically NO.
15 Mar 2010, 13:26 pm
@nama1:
what’s happening with your superbru?
have you stopped entering results?
15 Mar 2010, 13:27 pm
Agree with your sentiment UFO… moving forward as one.
15 Mar 2010, 13:27 pm
@ufo:
calm down son…
refer #62…
“without forgetting it though…”
15 Mar 2010, 13:27 pm
I think they support the Canes because: There is a Wellington in the Cape and one in NZ, and both the local teams are named after a weather occurrence. Makes them feel that they’re not really supporting a kiwi team. Use it don’t use.
15 Mar 2010, 13:29 pm
@charo:
Have not entered yet. Computer seem to pack up nearly every week now.
15 Mar 2010, 13:30 pm
@charo: Boland also. Lots of Bulls supporters.
15 Mar 2010, 13:32 pm
With regards to the Kiwi supporters: I agree, they need to move on. They are though, slowly.
15 Mar 2010, 13:33 pm
@RugbyRulz:
thanks RR… for sure we need to…
that’s one of the things I most enjoy about Newlands… you could end up sitting next to someone from Bishopscourt or Bishop Lavis… and have just as much in common and as much fun next to either…
15 Mar 2010, 13:33 pm
I find journalist that get personal about teams or players very amusing, with their single definitions that are spewed onto paper (or the net) its like Joel’s commentary, so blatantly one sided that is actualy funny, you see the more neutral a commentator the better, a good commentator says it like it is without being personal, journos should be that way, expose the facts and let people decide for themselves without attempting some form of Neuro-linguistic programming via the press.
15 Mar 2010, 13:34 pm
@ufo: I am with you 150% all the way….. I detest someone singing that just as much as i detest the “K” word or all form of rasism….. just that It seems that a 29 year old youth leader is fighting the struggle when he was all of 8 years old when apartheid was ablolished…… the scary thing is this iliterate person that managed to get a GG for woodwork might be gunning for president one day!
Heaven forbid!
15 Mar 2010, 13:36 pm
That’s because boland are a feeder team for the bulls…
Now that we have explained that the local hurricane supporters are really supporting Wellington in the boland…
How do we explain the local crusaders ?
15 Mar 2010, 13:36 pm
I think Jane is popping the R25′s as we speak….shame that was a eina one. Don’t think the pass to Naqelevuki was not forward either.
15 Mar 2010, 13:36 pm
My two cents:
Lions were lucky to lose by only 50-60, they way they played a team like the Crusaders or the Canes would have put 90 or 100 past them without breaking a sweat. Atrocious to say the least.
Sharks played OKish, but once again lost it on the day. I honestly cannot say if there is something to all the conspiracy theories doing the rounds (which seems to be standard in DirtBin when the Sharks/Dolphins are not winning) or if it is just a team who are down on their luck and struggle to close out games. Five losses by a total of 12 odd points…weird.
Keo’s comments about the Sharks in this article are unnecessary – maybe an argument could be made out that the Bulls and the Stormers learnt a lot from the Sharks about professionalism and building their brand…?
Bulls played well. If they turn it on they make it look too embarrassingly simple to score tries. I know a lot has been said about their defence but I tend to agree with some of my more rabit-BullsBuddies that they will tighten it as soon as they leave our shores. At this stage they just want 5 points from every game.
Stormers played extremely well – although I must admit I thought the Canes would put up more of a fight (I had the Stormers by no more than 7) Having said that, you can only play as well as the other team allows you to play and that Stormers defence is going to cause nightmares to many other teams this season. Personally I feel Bekker has been brilliant, and Fourie and Habana are showing glimpses of their best form. Great to see!
15 Mar 2010, 13:38 pm
Let’s try again. Don’t think the pass to Naqelevuki was forward either.
15 Mar 2010, 13:38 pm
Bulls have a lot of support amongst coloured people throughout SA. I think it has to do with the success they had the past few years. People like to associate themselves with a winning team.
Probably the same reason why so many coloureds chose to support the AB’s back in the days as they were the only team with a realistic chance to beat the Boks when they squared up back then.
15 Mar 2010, 13:40 pm
Charo
The flags on the west coast are a different story, the local sports shop got loads of bulls flags cheap and told the locals that they were stormers flags…
15 Mar 2010, 13:40 pm
Home grown…Habana, Fourie, De Waal, Grant, Naqelevuki, Welsh, Human, Juries, Lobberts, Vermeulen, Van Zyl.
15 Mar 2010, 13:41 pm
@ufo: You should hear the $hit I give the Sader fans when we fly over. The banter all game is worth the drowning of sorrows after the match.
Seriously funny the Kiwis and the Irish… they are the best.
15 Mar 2010, 13:43 pm
@gunther: 74… English left-overs
15 Mar 2010, 13:48 pm
Rulz
You mean they got lost on their way back from the crusades?
15 Mar 2010, 13:51 pm
@gunther: Yep
15 Mar 2010, 13:55 pm
“this is a province and now a Super 14 franchise that has rarely grown talent”
Players like Frans Steyn, JP, Beast, Pienaar, Murray, Barrit ect may not have schooled in KZN but the sharks can stake the claim of developing them into world class players, all entered the sharks set up as virtual unknowns under **** Muir. Another bs comment from keo aimed at the sharks. Until the bulls won the 2007 s14, the sharks were the most successful SA franchise, making three finals and numerous semis.
15 Mar 2010, 13:55 pm
keo, you are a funny little dwergie.
talk about pent up frustration and pandering to the mob lmao!
the stormers have practically bought an entire team in the last five years and yet you say the sharks are mercenaries?
mercenaries? in a professional game?
anyhoo, i hope you enjoy the hits you short ****, the sharks were 7 from 7 at the beginning of last season and the wheels fell off, it could happen to the stormers just as easily.
and if it does, i will have a few things to say
15 Mar 2010, 13:56 pm
And murray and barrit did school in kzn. Beast was poached from zim whilst still in matric
15 Mar 2010, 13:57 pm
Would you go so far as to say that they lacked direction then?
15 Mar 2010, 14:01 pm
And the sharks are responsible for the development of two of the geatest springbok captains of our time, Teich and Smit. Lnock Smit as much as you like, he may not be in great from but his record as a bok captain speaks for itself.
15 Mar 2010, 14:02 pm
funnily enough, i could go through the exercise of listing all the imports in the stormers and bulls teams and talk about how we have reached more semis and finals than any other saffa team and how the sharks along with the bulls have made up the core of the bok team for the last five years and on and on and on and on…..
but fukkit, whats the point of refuting an article written by a guy who is looking after his bank balance and not his integrity.
i mean if it doesnt work for julius, it probably wont work for keo either
15 Mar 2010, 14:02 pm
@rangerman:
Yeah honestly he must read his own articles before publishing such ****. Almost as bad as last weeks article. Beggining to sound like Spiro when talking about anything Saffer.
15 Mar 2010, 14:02 pm
Angryrangervigilante
15 Mar 2010, 14:03 pm
@gunther: 88 Are you talking to me
The English team (assuming that be your question)are nowhere at the moment, rudderless beyond belief.
15 Mar 2010, 14:05 pm
I seem to remeber WP poaching a few Sharks players in the Sharks glory days to come teach them to play ruggas.
Muir, Small, Kempson, Stransky to name a few.
15 Mar 2010, 14:05 pm
Here we go with the bullsh*t.
Lambasting the Sharks,comparing them to Real Madrid(who by the way have the most European Cups in history,always adopted buying best talent)
For one the Bulls when they were getting snort-klapped under Heyneke(who they even demoted at some point making Eugene Joubert coach in 2002/3) had home grown talent back then and still caught it.Tuks and TUT are at their weakest in the last 5 yrs.Bulls Academy is doing well as U19/u21 teams are doing well.
Sharks Academy is still producing top tier talent as Sharks u19-u21 teams either got to final(u19) last yr or won it (u21).The major problem is the management which may have overstayed its welcome(read:Brian van Zyl,Straeuli) and the unimaginative coach in Plumtree.
The Bulls deserve all the accolades,but to lambast Sharks for acquisitions either from Craven Week level or higher is ridiculous and flawed.Bulls snap up plenty of youngsters from outside th region and make them stars but when Sharks do it its seen differently.
Current Sharks academy products in Sharks XV
Beast Matawarira
Craig Burden(PMB College)
Steven Sykes
Keegan Daniel
Ryan Kankowski
Ruan Pienaar
Riaan Swanepoel
Waylon Murray(Westville)
Luzuko Vulindlu(Gelnwood)
Lwazi Mvovo
JP Pietersen
Alister Hargreaves(DHS)
Pat Lambie(Michaelhouse)
Players that have been at union for close to 10 yrs and became stars:(became Boks at Sharks)
John Smit
Johan Muller
Deon Carstens
Stefan Terblanche
Odwa Ndungane
Jacques Botes
Players who were discarded from union through mismanagement and not offered senior contracts(at Lions):
Rory Kockott
Jean Deysel
Charl McCleod
**Adi Jacobs was bought by Sharks when no one would take a chance on him(was playing 2nd div for Falcons at the time)-was discarded by Meyer at the Bulls for Dries Scholts/Tiaan Joubert/JP Nel/Frikkie Welsh..Made his way back to Bok colours
Context changes everything.pity keo nad some others recognise context when it suits their agenda specifically
15 Mar 2010, 14:06 pm
@RugbyRulz: don’t touch the Jews, let them remind us til kingdom come of the atrocities visited on them, lest you be accused of being anti-semitic..
15 Mar 2010, 14:08 pm
Rulz
Are you in fact Robert de Niro ?
It was a slight pun…
15 Mar 2010, 14:08 pm
@gunther:
i am not angry at all gunther, i am amused actually.
natal were included in the cc ONCE AGAIN after relegation and promotion periods.
they proceeded to hand out an *** whupping in the ’90′s.
sure, they recruited players. so did the lions (uli etc) and every other union.
difference is that natal didnt use the army or stellenbosch to do it
conscription was all a covert rugby recruitment programme as far as we natalians were concerned.
15 Mar 2010, 14:11 pm
Keo, you one-eyed chop!
Just you keep writing up the Stormers. They’ve won 4 games so far and still have 8 to play including their away leg. They will implode sooner or later, just like they always do.
15 Mar 2010, 14:12 pm
Eugene Joubert??? hahahahahaha … idiot …
15 Mar 2010, 14:12 pm
@mshiniwami: kunjani sbali…what is the justification of having hugh reece-edwards as part of the coaching staff, is he the next heineken meyer? From the “coaching wilderness” to taking the sharks to the promised land?
15 Mar 2010, 14:13 pm
I love these bits,
“Defence is 50 % of the game because half the game is played without the ball. South African supporters should take pride in matches won on defence and not irresponsible attack.”
and
“Defence has always been a strength of SA ’s best teams, as has a forward-based game.”
Maybe the rugby guru Keo has worked out that the Bulls have the 3rd worst defence in the S14!!!!!! He is such a ****.
15 Mar 2010, 14:14 pm
The real question is: Who Actually Coaches The Boks?
According some, 2009 success was supposedly due to the coaching of John Smit & Co (and conversely the losses due to PdV)
Since 2009 the Sharks have been on a steady decline to the current poor state.
Has John Smit’s coaching, supported by the around 8 Bok Sharks, started deteriorating?
Some would then claim it was rather Victor & Du Preez coaching the Boks
So is John Smit then simply the front row media puppet?
At the same time, Matfield’s results as Bok captain has less than wonderful, historically we have performed poorer when Matfield captains the Boks
Which then leaves us with the conclusion Du Preez is in fact the coach … with Victor and Smit mere captaincy puppets respectively
(All of the above is of course based on the great Bok coaching conspiracy)
15 Mar 2010, 14:14 pm
@luds05: Smit went to Pretoria Boys high developed in Bulle country boet
15 Mar 2010, 14:16 pm
Ranger
It seems fashionable to wail on the sharks this year..
I wonder what next years colour will be on keo ?
15 Mar 2010, 14:17 pm
@gunther: As I catch a glimpse of myself in the perfectly positioned mirror. Nah mate, you sure are sharper than a tac
15 Mar 2010, 14:17 pm
@mshiniwami: What is the state of club rugby and school boy rugby in KZN? I do not know so this is just a question.
Went the other day on the Sharks website and saw alot of their players born in the Eastern Cape. It was something like eight of their 30 players or something like that.
The following players from the Bulls went to school in our region:
1. Matfield
2. FdP
3. Spies
4. Gary Botha
5. Kuun
6. Olivier (I think)
7. Kruger (I think)
At least there are some world class players there. You dont seem to have the rugby culture in Durbs that Capetown and Pretoria have?
15 Mar 2010, 14:17 pm
@Oubaas2009:
LOL
15 Mar 2010, 14:18 pm
@Farjan:
Added to the above:
**** Muir is clearly clueless as the Lions
The Stormers forwards have improved since Gary Gold’s departure
Hence,
PdV supposedly cannot coach
Muir cannot coach
Gold cannot coach
Smit cannot coach
Matfield cannot coach
So who is it then?
15 Mar 2010, 14:19 pm
well said mshiniwami, finally something worth reading in this article
15 Mar 2010, 14:20 pm
@Farjan:
The third Force? or Jake White winning ways (but only when they are winning).
15 Mar 2010, 14:23 pm
i just hope the sharks can poach some more talent for next year.
maybe we need to get a bit closer to bernie habana?
15 Mar 2010, 14:27 pm
Ranger
Bernie will only bring you meisiecentre..
Have you auditioned for a part in spud?
15 Mar 2010, 14:27 pm
@rangerman: come on ranger, what happened to all of us saffas supporting ALL our teams, not just our own provinces?
15 Mar 2010, 14:29 pm
@rangerman:
I’ll do it 4 u
Kees Lensing-(Namibia)
Danie Coetzee(EP)
Victor Matfield(made debut at Griquas)
Wikus van Heerden(Made debut/star at Lions)
Anton Leornard(SWD)
Morne Steyn(Bloem born/bred)
Derrick Hougaard(WP born/bred)
Frikke Welsh(WP)
Dries Scholts(Griquas)
Tiaan Joubert(SWD)
Akona Ndungane(Border)
Brian Habana(Lions)
Daan Human(EP/Boland)
Ettienne Botha(Falcons)
Frans Hogaard(WP born bred)
Flip vd Merwe(debut Cheetahs)
Guthro Steenkamp(via WP-was Bok at Cheetahs)
Dewalt Potgieter(EP born/bred)
Zane Kircher(debut Griquas)
Jaco Pretorius(via Natal,was Bok at Lions)
Pedrie Wannenburg(played Craven Week for Natal-if not mistaken)
Jaco vd Westhuizen(made debut for Natal,then Pumas)
Henie Adams(SWD)
Gary Botha(made S12/S14 debut for Sharks)
JP Nel(WP)
Thus homegrown talent is(went thru all Bulls structures from school)…:
Pierre Spies
Deon Stegmann
Fourie Du Preez
Gary Botha
Bakkies Botha
Wynand Olivier
Thats about it really
15 Mar 2010, 14:31 pm
@airwell you clown, read…he did not school in kzn, he was made at the sharks, he was developed into the best hooker in the world, Arrived as a prop at the age of 19
15 Mar 2010, 14:32 pm
Sheesh, you lot are harsh and unforgiving.
15 Mar 2010, 14:33 pm
@Horings: isnt kruger from the cape? didnt big vic get poached from griquas?
bj botha is a durban boy, as is waylon murray and butch james and brad barrit and peter grant (pmb actually) and bobby skinstad (pmb) etc etc etc.
glenwood high school were no. 2 in the country last year.
westville, michaelhouse and hilton are all producing top class players. kersney has a HUGE rugby festival.
dhs has the occasional gem.
club rugby is in rude health.
rugby is played in durbs mate, seriously
15 Mar 2010, 14:34 pm
Mshini
Does that mean that the bulls are the Real Madrid of South African rugby?
15 Mar 2010, 14:35 pm
@Transformation:
Sho ndoda.
Cha Hugh Reece Edwards udoti sbali.funeke ahlale lana ekhona-coaching intwana at high school level.
His return to prominence is nothing but the Old Boys club pushing one of their own back into limelight/big time.He is a technical assistant/asst coach at best.
15 Mar 2010, 14:36 pm
So lets have a look at Keo’s Stormers then.
1. Wickus Blaauw – born in Namibia and schooled in Upington.
2. Tiaan Liebenberg – born in Kimberly and schooled at Grey Bloem.
3. Brok Harris – born in Roodepoort and went to Bastion High.
4. Anton Van Zyl – born in Cape Town, went to Rondebosch but played for Lions.
5. Andries Bekker – born in Goodwood, went to Paul Roos.
6. Frans Louw – born in CT, went to Bishops.
7. Schalk Burger – born in PE, went to Paarl Gym
8. Duanne Vermeulen – born in Nelspruit, went to Nelspuit High.
9. Dewald Duvenhage -Born in Bellville, went to Paarl Gym
10. Peter Grant – born in PMB, went to Maritzburg College.
14. Sireli Naqelevuki – figian
12. Juan De Jongh – born in Paarl, went to Huguenot High
13. Jacques Fourie – born in Carltonville, went to Monument.
11. Bryan Habana – born in JHB, went to KES
15. Joe Pietersen – born in Vryheid, KZN went to Grey Bloem
16. Deon Fourie – born in Pretoria, went to Pietersburg High
17. JC Krizinger – born in Jeffreys Bay, went to Stellenberg.
18. De Kock Steenkamp – born in Williston, went to Paarl.
19. Ricky Jan – Born in Hopefield, went to Weston
20. Lionel Cronje – Born in Bloem, went to Queens College.
21. Pieter Louw – Born in CT, went to Paarl
15 Mar 2010, 14:37 pm
@mshiniwami: Stegmann was at grey, but Matfield was in Pietersburg at school, went to Tuks. He was not getting any game time at a big union and went to Griquas just to get game time. He went back to the Bulls once he thought he was ready for the big time. You can make things sound so ugly without telling the full story.
I dont want to even start with Gary Botha. At least you mentioned him in homegrown talent.
Care to comment on my previous comment?
15 Mar 2010, 14:40 pm
@mshiniwami: 115. Shadow van der Heever. Danie Rossouw. Chillyboy.
15 Mar 2010, 14:40 pm
@rangerman: I dont know about Kruger. Read my previous comment on Matfield. To say that Matfield is not a born and bred Bulls man will be insane!
15 Mar 2010, 14:41 pm
@gunther:
the sharks bashing is a good sign man, just like the bulls took stick in 2008.
tall trees catch the most wind. i havent even read spud yet.
@Transformation: i do support all our teams. i just dont support all our fans
@mshiniwami: thanks mshini. so much of amusement at keos bs article.
bakkies is a natalian actually. born and bred in newcastle.
but all this poaching talk smacks of bitterness really. i respect the bulls for building a great squad and kudos to the stormers for doing the same (with an eastern cape boykie who cut his teeth at the cheetahs
)
it took them a long time to follow the sharks example.
15 Mar 2010, 14:46 pm
@gunther: the bulls took stick in 2008 and its our turn now.
tall trees and wind eh?
transie, i support all saffa teams, not all saffa fans
mshini, thanks!
bakkies is actually a natalian, newcastle born and bred.
all this poaching talk stems from bitterness. well done to the bulls and stormers for building great squads (the bulls with a cape man and the stormers with and eastern cape man who cut his teeth at the cheetahs) but we just dont understand why it took you so long to follow natals example.
15 Mar 2010, 14:47 pm
@mshiniwami: now thats what i call investigative journalism, well played sonny !!!!
15 Mar 2010, 14:47 pm
@Horings:
Ok.Which means Stegmann is Bloem further entending the list.
Secondly-Matfield made his name at Griquas-played under Andre Maakgraaf’s all conquering Griquas side that won inaugral Vodacom Cup that produced the following stars players:
Phillip Smit
Victor Matfield
Piet Krause
Dave von Hoesslin
Gaffie du Toit
Robert Makram
Braam van Straaten
Lourens Venter
All the have went on overseas dirt tracker tour in 1998/9 with Boks under Mallett if Im not mistaken.
Matfield was first recognised as a top tier talent after his stint with Griquas which propelled him into spotlight.Makgraaf often is credited with unearthing Matfield.
15 Mar 2010, 14:49 pm
@Horings: well he isnt mate.
if he is a born and bred bulls man then bakkies is a turncoat shark.
no, school is not where you draw the line imo, its where a player first plays representative rugby and is developed at the top level.
thus vic is a griqua potato eater.
15 Mar 2010, 14:54 pm
Matfield is not a born and bred Bulls man.
15 Mar 2010, 14:55 pm
Danie Rossouw is a Mpumalanga boy,played fullback for either Pumas/Limpopo Bulls at Craven Week.
15 Mar 2010, 14:56 pm
Who actually cares who they PLAYED for. They are now playing for franchises who pay to recruit the best. Home talent is important but money buys the stars. So Bulls have bought well and I think so have the Stormers.
15 Mar 2010, 14:58 pm
@mshiniwami: @rangerman: He was at Tuks, which means he was already part of our after school structures. Heyneke brought in the U21 and U19 structures to its full extend after Matfield’s school days. Before that it was the clubs and schools that made up our junior structures.
He always wanted to play for us and just thought that it will be a smart move to go to Griqueas for a couple of years, but he definitely developed his skills in Bulls country.
Bakkies was only born in Newcastle. I do think he was in Nelspruit or Witrivier at school. This is not Bulls country but it aint Sharks country.
15 Mar 2010, 14:58 pm
@Bill Reyts: agreed.
but keo seems to have a different point of view.
no wonder straueli wanted to bliksem the little bugger
15 Mar 2010, 14:59 pm
@Kea-Cat: Where was he at school?
15 Mar 2010, 14:59 pm
@Horings: well there are clearly many players who always wanted to play for the sharks but we have only so much space really.
15 Mar 2010, 15:00 pm
@Horings: big vic is a griqua.
this is by keo’s logic.
me? i think he is as blue as a kid with acne and braces’s balls.
15 Mar 2010, 15:00 pm
@rangerman: Howdy Mate! All teams go through what your team is going through. They will come through it.
15 Mar 2010, 15:03 pm
@Bill Reyts: howdy man.
ja, i am actually not that depressed man.
we have lost four games by a total of 12 points and whilst it is a little disheartening, it gives us a season to reflect on what we need to do to move forward.
back in a short while.
15 Mar 2010, 15:05 pm
@luds05: Still matriculated in Pretoria and as such learnt his rugby there. Gave him his grounding. Where did Teichman go to School?
15 Mar 2010, 15:06 pm
@rangerman: The question is this. Do you assign your franchises to regions which has a rugby culture going back years or do you assign them to the regions where the rugby is played well at this moment of time? The first will be a better long term plan. The question then is this: Which five regions has the longest, proudest and best rugby culture and history: 1. Western Cape 2. Pretoria and Limpopo 3. Rest of the Old Transvaal 4. Freestate 5. Eastern Cape or 6. KZN
I do not know the answer, but I know (1) and (2) definitely falls into this category.
15 Mar 2010, 15:08 pm
Ikeys or Tukkies??? Tough one to call.
15 Mar 2010, 15:10 pm
@Airwell:
Teichman was at Hilton College.Born and bred Natalian.Made his debut for Sharks too.
15 Mar 2010, 15:10 pm
all the above simply proves that the sharks management led the way in using the pro era to build a franchise…..and with the least resources.
the so called big unions were still stuck in their shamateurish ways.
now the other unions have awoken and are catching up.
time for new management at the sharks to stay ahead in the innovation race.
15 Mar 2010, 15:11 pm
@ufo: no man. That was some oak sitting below me, called Joe.
15 Mar 2010, 15:12 pm
@Horings:
Still makes more than 80% of Bulls squad(of last 5-7 yrs) not home grown thus rubbishing Keo’s article
15 Mar 2010, 15:13 pm
@mshiniwami: I do see you have great knowledge of SA rugby. Could you compile a team out of Eastern Cape players? Born and bred or there at some stage of their career. I know Potgieter was there. I see Stegmann was actually born in Cradock. Kankowski was born there etc
15 Mar 2010, 15:18 pm
@mshiniwami: I do not really care about the actual article. I ahve some of my own questions and they are more or less summarised in post #141. It is the professional era and players will travel.
I am thinking about what is best for South African rugby. Come to think of it, we should have our own conference of six teams and NZ and Aus can have there own make up. Then the top 2 teams should qualify for a Champions league type Super 6.
15 Mar 2010, 15:22 pm
@Horings: your conference idea is exactly the same as the s15, just one team more.
15 Mar 2010, 15:22 pm
I instictively wanted to jump on my high horse and defend the stormers, giving examples of who was a home developed player etc etc. But then I thought stuff it, it is the professional era and players will move, and franchises will buy players. That is the bottom line.
may the best team win.
15 Mar 2010, 15:23 pm
Ai tog Keo wat praat jy alles.
“The good news is that the Bulls (read Northern Transvaal) loom as giants of the game, while in Cape Town the Stormers (read Western Province) ……………. ”
Must we assume that Business Day readers do not know this?
15 Mar 2010, 15:23 pm
@stormersboy: well done man.
seems you are one of the verligte.
15 Mar 2010, 15:27 pm
@rangerman: Ja I know, but there are a couple of things that does not make sense, such as the Crusaders will only play four of our teams in one year and stuff like that. We should have the Currie Cup, with the Kings coming in and get all of the help they can get (this is what transformation should actually come down to) and then the top 2 or 3 teams should play a home and away Super 6 or 9. Games such as the Tahs Lions game just breaks players rather than helping them.
15 Mar 2010, 15:27 pm
@charo: about as accurate as we are going to get on this subject. Its a free for all out there and that is how it should be. But I do take PA’s point that our local Cape scouts need to sharpen up on their scouting skills because some little haarders are slipping through the net and becoming donderse big Kobeljous elsewhere.
15 Mar 2010, 15:29 pm
funny too that though the stormers have had some horrible years, the boks have been relatively strong?
world cup, 3n (twice) and bil series.
now what keo should be punting is the fact that having 3 (possibly 4 if the cheetahs keep on improving) franchises would be a wonderful state of affairs for bok rugby instead of trying to make out that the sharks poor season is the natural state of affairs.
15 Mar 2010, 15:30 pm
@Horings: ja, i will wait and see how it turns out but i just dont see the saffa rugby public being that chuffed with a bunch of home derbies in the cc and then another bunch in the s15, year in and year out.
15 Mar 2010, 15:32 pm
@rangerman:
The Stormers are heading for a fall.
They can’t keep this up.
(Read: Western Province)
15 Mar 2010, 15:33 pm
@rangerman:
And the tide will turn when the Sharks (read Natal) come back to play at home.
15 Mar 2010, 15:34 pm
@Dawn:
i hope not dawn, truly.
we need strong saffa sides for the boks to do well.
of course when they play the sharks ( Read: Natal) i hope they fall flat on their collective faces.
15 Mar 2010, 15:36 pm
and why did keo feel it necesscary to include that whole “read: northern transvaal” boelie?
maybe keo is greatest13gerber?
15 Mar 2010, 15:36 pm
@rangerman:
Waar kom Keo aan die strond!!!
(read: *****)!
15 Mar 2010, 15:37 pm
@Dawn: uit sy gat uit (read: poephol)
15 Mar 2010, 15:37 pm
@rangerman:
Business Day readers have their heads so far up their financial behinds that they don’t know that the names have changed!
(read : ostriches)
15 Mar 2010, 15:38 pm
@rangerman: The Sharks are not really that far off. Province also lost alot of close games last year.
It is rather dangerous to be a journo because I remember quite well how there was one Keo article just after the 2008 CC final proclaiming that it is the end of the Bulls era and the start of the Sharks era with their youngsters (Bismark, Deysel, Beast, Sykes, Pietersen etc). Strange how things can change.
I will be writing things about how succesful the Stormers are after they’ve won their 2nd CC in a row. Not after showing some glimpses of good rugby.
15 Mar 2010, 15:46 pm
when did keo become such a ****?
I believe the Sharks have nurtured a lot of young talent that they took a chance on(See: Ruan Pienaar, Francois Steyn, John Smit(he was young hooker once trying to break out of u/21 where many have failed.), JP Pietersen…), there is no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to talent in rugby.
Yes, this may not be local talent but it is beneficial to the Springboks quite obviously!
As a Sharks supporter i wish the Stormers and the rest of SA’sides all the best in these comps except when playing Sharks of course. Im sure the average Stormers supporter doesnt wish to kick the Sharks during a rough patch, the same way that Sharks wouldnt do the same if the Stormers didnt make the semis this year.
Why doesnt he do an article on the huge errors committed by Refs keeping the Sharks out of Semi final contention?
He’s probably allegedly off his face on “Coca Cola” again.
15 Mar 2010, 15:48 pm
@Dawn: and keo has his head so far up their asses that he is resmbling a parasite making its exit after a course of vermox (read: tapeworm).
@Horings: agreed. but keo is a wind up merchant of the highest order.
he has his soapbox and will use it.
the sharks will improve this season. but i think the problem lies at board level and i hope the sharks can ridd themselves of it before they take the lions road.
that would make me very unhappy.
15 Mar 2010, 15:50 pm
@Oxy moron: haha, keo hates the sharks mate.
but ja, we have drwan the short straw as far as reffing goes this year. it happens and the sharks must play well enough to win regardless imo.
GO SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARKSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!
15 Mar 2010, 15:53 pm
@rangerman:
(Read: Natal)
15 Mar 2010, 15:58 pm
@Dawn: Read Kwazulu Natal
15 Mar 2010, 16:00 pm
@rangerman: The Sharks do have a bad history with refs. I can remember a semi final in Christchurch a number of years ago where they were really torn apart by the ref. I think old Mac had an afro before that game.
Then there was the Super 14 Final in Durbs. That was just very unlucky, although Muir lost it in those final minutes.
15 Mar 2010, 16:00 pm
@Oxy moron:
Not according to Keo!
15 Mar 2010, 16:02 pm
@Horings:
EP Boys
1.
2.
3.
4.Steven Sykes
5.Johan Muller
6.Ashley Johnson
7.Dewalt Potgieter
8.Ryan Kankowski
9.Rory Kockott
10.Brent Russell
11.Odwa Ndungane
12.
13.Luzuko Vulindlu
14.Akona Ndungane
15.Tiger Mangweni
15 Mar 2010, 16:05 pm
Once again keo has shown his utter ignorance of so many facts.
But that doesn;t stop him shooting his fat mouth off.
Not content with showing us all that he does not know the laws of rugby, he now
goes on to show us how little he knows about the history of Natal rugby.
They were called the ‘banana boys’ long before they went to the B-section.
What an ignoramus Keo is.
“never earned promotion to the Currie Cup through performance”
The first inter-provincial game I saw was Northern Transvaal vs Natal
Natal won, going away at the end, which was their style in those days.
In the 60′s they had a year in which they won every single game they played with the exception of a
stonewalled draw with negative Transavaal.
In those days Natal played running rugby that was a joy to watch. They were admired throughout South Africa for their running rugby. They didn’t have the weight, so they used their brains, they would have shown the Brumbies a thing or two.
But now we have John Smit from Northern Transvaal and he plays just like that, crash, crash, crash…..and nothing else.
They never won the Currie Cup before the 90′s for a few reasons.
The Currie Cup competion wasn’t played every year.
They had to have South African refs in every game.
Many a time they suffered from the wrong rub of the green.
I’m not saying they were cheats, just uncontrollably, helplessly biased.
Which is why neutral refs are used today. Or used to be used in Super 14, the Super 14 admins are just naive.
Durban and Natal was deliberately underdeveloped in those days, the (Afrikaans) government
always steered development away from Natal, because it was “too English”.
This meant that the busy centres in those days (Jhb, Pta, CT) had the places that attracted
rugby players who played rugby after leaving school, which was not something that English speakers
really did very much. They went into private industry, not picking up cushy jobs in government, police, and defence, or agriculture.
Would you want to play against a lot of beligerent working class boereseuns who were beefed up on yards
of boerewors and tons of mieliepap, just loooking to squash some ‘Engelsman’ with a friendly ref looking on approvingly?
Keo says
” They created a culture of expensive player imports, with the occasional dud buys.”
Actually it was a lot of expensive duds with the occasional good buy.
But how would Keo know that? He can’t see what’s right in front of his eyes.
Actually the Stormers are a highly imported team as are the Bulls.
And I might add the Stormers have always had an eye for Natal cast-offs.
But we don’t expect Keo to let the facts get in the way of his venom.
Some duds?
AJ Venter
Frans Steyn (cost the Super 14 final all on his own as well as many comical blunders)
Ruan Piennar (he looks spaced out and can’t even catch a kick off)
John Smit. (He’s had tactics tailor made for his wobbly frame rammed down the throat of the public and backline players.
All for one Currie Cup title and many, many unnecessary losses).
Kees Lensing.
Gaffie du Toit.
du Plessis.
du Plessis.
That’s enough.
How many Natal players were snapped up by the Bulls and other Provinces over the years? More than a few actually.
We also need to address the B section. Why did the Sharks wind up there?
Every team has its up and downs, The Bulls would have been relegated from the Super XX many times.
Does Keo forget that they were the whipping boys of Super XX for many years? As were the Stormers.
He knows he just prefers not to mention it.
The Stormers weren’t even in the original Super 10.
Also see paragraph above.
This is ancient history, so why bring it up/
I don’t know, ask Keo, he did it.
If they dumped all the imports now and stuck to Natal players (and Eastern Cape)
they would have a better side than what they usually field.
15 Mar 2010, 16:09 pm
Mark Keohane has a small wi11y and makes up for it with big mouthed articles.
15 Mar 2010, 16:12 pm
Oubaas, you are probably right, I wish I had thought of that before I got started on my opus.
15 Mar 2010, 16:12 pm
@rangerman: #167 here is something i found in my email archives…the bold part is the interesting bit!
Sharks will fly SA flag
In his first weekly newsletter, Keo explains why the Stormers won’t live up to the hype this season.
To receive Keo’s newsletter, subscribe for FREE at the Keo’s Corner section on the home page. The newsletter will only be e-mailed to subscribers from next week.
I’m picking the Stormers to do the usual in 2009, which is to give a hint of why so many believe they will go all the way this season, but then to implode before the semi-finals. Anything less than a top four represents a failure but once again we find ourselves in Slaapstad expecting so much of a franchise that realistically has never done anything but boast the best support base in the competition’s history.
I’m told by my many informants that things are going so well with the Stormers that they have instituted a draconian-style media policy which limits access to the squad once a week and does not even allow for the local rugby writers to attend training sessions. Apparently the team sponsors agree with this archaic strategy, which asks the question why they would want to be involved with a team that only wants exposure once a week?
Now take that attitude and ask how it fits in with a marketing strategy that calls the team that of the people. Clearly it doesn’t but then when you have that kind of paranoia from team leadership before a ball has been passed, you know the degree of implosion when it all goes wrong.
Already there’s been too much cleverness from within the Stormers ranks. Selecting Nick Koster as a winger is doing his development as a loose forward no good. It is not in the interest of the player and if I was Koster I’d be on the first plane to Durban where his skills as one of the country’s most promising loose forwards would be improved.
Koster, given his pedigree as a person, has said all the right things about putting the team first, but if the Stormers believe he will be content to wait his turn, then they’ve underestimated the ambition of the young guy.
The Sharks, on balance, are an outstanding side and John Plumtree commands respect as a coach because his actions say much more than his words. Some coaches talk a great game, while Plumtree is from the school that prefers others to do the talking based on achievement of the team.
I’ve never liked the Sharks because I’ve never liked Durban and Durban has never liked me. There is no mountain and there is no loyalty from their rugby supporters when times are tough. You only have to do a check on crowd attendance in a poor season and compare it to when the Sharks are competing for a home semi-final. At least down in Mountain Goat country 35 000 still come out whether the Stormers are playing for the wooden spoon or missing out on a semi-final by points differential.
But because I don’t like the Sharks doesn’t mean I’m not picking them to be the best of the South African sides. Of course they are but to win the competition they have to be hosting a semi-final. Can they do it? To quote someone familiar with the Durbanites, there’s the lovely line of Bob the Builder … ‘Yes we can!’
In assessing the prospects of the Lions and Cheetahs I just did a copy and paste from every year’s preview. ‘NO CHANCE’.
The Bulls will be more competitive with Victor Matfield back running the show, but they are top six – more than top two – material.
South Africa’s chances are helped by the fact that this must be the weakest squads picked by New Zealand in the history of the tournament. Some of their players are just KAK and in the glory days of Super 12 wouldn’t even have made the Supporters’ XV of the Blues and Crusaders.
And as much as it hurts to say it the European Cup has definitely replaced Super rugby as the premier international club/province/region (whichever is your fancy) competition. The quality of players in the European Cup and the variety is something you won’t see in this year’s Super 14.
The Hurricanes look the best on paper among the Kiwi sides, but there’s two teams of northern hemisphere-based Kiwi sides I’d enter in the Super 14 ahead of the Highlanders and Blues. The Crusaders will benefit from what Robbie Deans built, but they won’t be as good. The Chiefs will, like the Stormers, be wonderful or woeful and the Canes will have to be playing at home in the play-offs to have a chance of winning the competition.
Oh yes, I nearly forgot the Australian teams, who with the exception of the Waratahs will make up the numbers, and if the Sharks do come unstuck then maybe this is the year that the Sydneysiders finally come good.
My biggest wish for the Super 14 is to hear more Australian commentary, less South African commentary and a few new names making an impact. I also wish for even better-looking bar ladies at SA Rugby magazine/keo.co.za’s plush suite at Newlands, and that will take some doing after the visuals we were treated to last season.
What the Super 14 does provide is balance in viewing because as much as I like the 6-3 battles when Toulouse visit Bath, nothing beats a bit of basketball in February and March, so hopefully our teams can embrace the spirit of scoring tries a bit better than their northern hemisphere counterparts.
Now fire your questions in to me by lunchtime every Monday and not only will you be a better person for the interaction you will be rewarded with prizes as impressive as the Sharks and a few as limp as the Lions.
Send your questions to
This entry was posted on Thursday, February 12th, 2009 at 10:33 am
15 Mar 2010, 16:12 pm
@mshiniwami: No Props? What has happened to the days of Domkrag etc.
15 Mar 2010, 16:12 pm
@mshiniwami: 1 Bees Roux
15 Mar 2010, 16:14 pm
@mshiniwami: Thanks. I do think SA should really start to exploit that area. SA rugby should buy internationals where there are gaps and make sure these internationals have a coaching role to play in the rural areas. I always thought of transformation as using the resources available to help someone or a group to stand on their own feet in a competitive world.
15 Mar 2010, 16:15 pm
@Transformation: “I have never liked Durban and Durban has never liked me”… classical!
The follow up will read “I have always liked Cape Town, but Cape Town has never liked me”
15 Mar 2010, 16:16 pm
@bozo: Why are you so racist towards Afrikaans speaking people?
15 Mar 2010, 16:21 pm
Airwell, go take a hike.
And don’t change the subject.
15 Mar 2010, 16:22 pm
Mark Keohane is making stuff up again. The entire thrust of the article is wrong. Neither the Bulls or the Stormers are ‘home grown’, they are no better than the Sharks in this regard. In fact they both have senior 1st XV players that played age grade and/or senior rugby for the Sharks and from KZN.
Bulls Super 14 squad.
Started playing professionally for another union, before joining the Bulls:
Flip van der Merwe – Cheetahs
Guthro Steenkamp – Cheetahs
Bees Roux – Cheetahs
Zane Kirchner – Griquas/Cheetahs
Jaco Engels – Leopards/Boland
Heini Adams – Eagles
Bakkies – Valke
Akona Ndungane – EP/Border
Jaco Pretorius – Lions
Jaco van der Westhuizen – Sharks age grade/Vodacom/Currie cup/Super 12
Started playing age grade for another province. Only played pro rugby for the Bulls:
Deon Stegmann – from EP poached by Grey College/Cheetahs age grade
Dewald Potgieter – EP age grade
Stephan Dippenaar – WP age grade
Francois Hougaard – WP age grade
Bandise Maku – Border age grade
Pedrie Wannenburg – Natal age grade
Werner Kruger – Valke age grade
Then there are those, that had to go elsewhere to get their break before returning:
Jacques-Louis Potgieter – Bulls, but never played, went to Cheetahs, was given a chance and then went back.
Victor Matfield – Bulls, went to Griquas/Cats so he could get game time, then returned.
Now that is the majority of the Bulls Super 14 squad.
I could not care less about the ones that played age grade elsewhere. Nor the ones that started at the Bulls then went back, hey the Bulls were unwilling to give them a break, but it was ‘buyer beware’ if they actually used their chance.
What gets me, is a full THIRD of the Super 14 squad. Started out professionally at another union, no connection to the Bulls before signing with them whatsoever. Fair enough, most of them were not from big 5 unions and so examples of the system working, good players moving up the food chain from minnow provinces.
But hang on 6 of these were from big 5 unions! and in the Super 14 match day teams? So just buying a player from a fellow big 5 union, that was an established starting player? Pretty much the purest form of ‘poaching’?
May do the Stormers in a bit.
15 Mar 2010, 16:23 pm
Sharks could just as easily be 4 from five..
They narrowly lost to the brumbies who beat the stormers at home.,
Perspective like electricity is in short supply…
15 Mar 2010, 16:24 pm
@Airwell: If I was Afrikaans speaking I would take huge offence to the tone and contents of you blog posting. It shows utmost disrespect to a section of our population imo.
15 Mar 2010, 16:28 pm
I dont see the advert for Blythedale foorest and beach resort on this page anymore. They probably pulled it and now Keo is gaining retribution by dissing the Sharks. If they havent pulled it maybe its time they thought about it.
15 Mar 2010, 16:29 pm
@Tacitus:
@38
Oh! shut up please. It is simple really if you just removve those restrictions and obstrutions on your cortex and just think about the 352 or so years of history.
Whilst you are rational when you remove those blocks let me suggest you forget this “you are either with us or with the terrorist’ mentality because that is so dead already.
However, if you want an answer, yes we are with the ‘terrorist’ always the ‘terrorist, because they are the underdog and we always love the underdog.Now be even more perplexed by that as you totally ignore the failed social manipulations of the past.
15 Mar 2010, 16:33 pm
Another reason Keo doesn’t like Durban is that he probably can’t swim and prefers to stay in a place where nobody will notice.
15 Mar 2010, 16:35 pm
@elliott2: 187. And you seem to ignore the failing social manipulations of the present.
15 Mar 2010, 16:40 pm
@elliott2: I thought they suported the AB’s and NZ teams because they hold a grudge against the past ito of whites only rugby? OR maybe they just like to support wining teams which is what NZ teams were until recently? Am interested in the phsycology of it all not to feel any patriotism towards your country of birth. I accept it is your democratic right but would really like to understand why you would dis the country of your birth.
15 Mar 2010, 16:42 pm
@Heavens Game:
Typical white-is-right mentality.
And look at the comparison you bring as your logic; 352 years to 16 years?
How desperate you are.
Rant and rave but I will not be around.
15 Mar 2010, 16:43 pm
@Airwell: Similar in a lot of repects to white South Africans emigrating and telling the world tha SA is a KAK country and that it is like the Wild West.
15 Mar 2010, 16:44 pm
@mshiniwami: @172 SEC based on “province of origin”
1.Pat Barnard
2. Bandise Maku
3. Gungqu Mtimka
4. Steven Sykes
5 Johan Muller
6. Keegan Daniels/Luke Watson/Mpho Mbiyozo
7. Deon Steggmann, Dewald Potgieter
8. Ryan Kankowski, Joe Van Niekerk
9. Rory Kockott
10. Lionel Cronje ??
11. Jongi Nokwe
12. Gcobani Bobo/Riaan Swanepoel
13. Lionel Mapoe
14. Fabian Juries/Wandile Mjekevu
15. Francois Steyn
Coaches: Allister Coetzee, Alan Solomons, Rassie Erasmus, Robbie Kempson,Eric Sauls
15 Mar 2010, 16:45 pm
@elliott2: 191. You presume much about my skin-colour and hence mentality and logic. As if they are all interlinked?
Is it not you that have prejudice.
Are you black?
If so, you are a bigot, notwithstanding the colour of your skin.
15 Mar 2010, 16:46 pm
@XhosaKid: Who would your Captain be?
15 Mar 2010, 16:49 pm
@Airwell: Mine would be Bobo
15 Mar 2010, 16:50 pm
@XhosaKid: not taken into account youngster like Bjorn Basson ( Emerging Bok vs BIL 09), Buhle Mxunyelwa ( WP ), Tiger Bax ( WP)
15 Mar 2010, 16:51 pm
@Heavens Game:
Humans express themselves in every word and every deed you extreme dumb one thus you are so easy to read.
You do not have to be white to have that mentality. You can just play white.
Are you purple?
15 Mar 2010, 16:52 pm
Joe Van Niekerk, primary because responsibility brings out the best in him, his deputies would Bobo and Luke
15 Mar 2010, 16:55 pm
@elliott2: 198. And you, my son, are the sole arbiter of human expression…
You are obviously a bigot.
15 Mar 2010, 16:56 pm
Not sure if some of you read this today. A while back Aussie and Brumbies fullback Julian Huxley was diagnosed with a brain tumour. Two years later, after successful surgery and treatment, he’s back playing rugby (played for the Brumby Runners against the Junior Waratahs on the weekend). Great feelgood story.
15 Mar 2010, 16:56 pm
@XhosaKid: Has Joe ever captained a team professionally?
15 Mar 2010, 16:57 pm
@Heavens Game:
Not the first time I have dealt with you.
Two sundays ago I similarly dealt with you and your very last post then was a blatant lie about two rugby players. Says much about you, does it not, but that would never bother you would it now?
15 Mar 2010, 16:58 pm
@elliott2: 203. Aha, a bigoted waBenzi…
15 Mar 2010, 17:00 pm
@katman: 201. That is a good snippet. Where is the story? Will otherwise google.
15 Mar 2010, 17:05 pm
@Airwell: He is captaining Toulon and he is doing wonders, in fact, I would have picked him ahead of Spies last year, when everyone keeps going on about Ricky’s try in Dunedin, the real Man of the Match was Joe Van Niekerk.
15 Mar 2010, 17:19 pm
@katman:
I do remember. You even sent him good wishes in an email and to say to him to check Keo out and see how many Saffas were wishing him a good recovery.
btw…I won’t mention The Lions performance. YOu must be bewildered, if not heavily cheesed off the the okes from Coke park.
15 Mar 2010, 17:26 pm
@XhosaKid:
He played well in Dunedin no doubt.
Seemed to have matured and had the allround game at that stage.Also for a moment seemed to have repaid the faith the coach PdV had in him by choosing him out the blue for Bok aquad.Same with Eloff who took a chance on Joe when no one would after Northampton fiasco.
Then after Dunedin after getting his kudos-and dollars up,signed a contract with Toulon while on tour right after Dunedin historic win.
Mercenary.Will never play Boks again.Should never.period.
Secondly while I dont dispute he can still play,being a star player in France is something even Gerhard Vosloo/Antonie Claassen/Shaun Sowerby have been doing in France with rave reviews.Even Nico Breedt was highly rated in Toulon-was their player of the yr in 08′ I think.But he is dogsh*t at Cheetahs/S14 level.
Dont see them being called best loosies in the world to captain Boks ala Joe van Niekerk.Media hype about Joe is played out ndoda.
15 Mar 2010, 17:28 pm
the bashing of the Sharks is a pretext to the installation of “conniving ways” in durban. Watch this space! The next articles will be about how jake can build structures in Durban
15 Mar 2010, 17:30 pm
@mshiniwami:
Well said.
15 Mar 2010, 17:30 pm
@Transformation:
Well said.
15 Mar 2010, 17:38 pm
Are they advertising steriods on this site now? What’s this testo increase stuff they’re hawking on the main page?
This blog is getting seriously dodgy, if you ask me.
15 Mar 2010, 17:58 pm
@Transformation: @Tacitus:
Simon made it clear this morning that they print to sell.
Jaque Fourie sells, and the stuff above sells.
Make no mistake, these guys have been writing for years and are good at what they do.
Much of what keo says for instance in the above article is true, and he has a good point, but then he cleverly throws in angles left open to interpretation and leave some feeling out there.
15 Mar 2010, 18:00 pm
Effectively it is simple.
Emotion sells.
The ‘best center in the world’ (still cracks me up) therefore sells, and a ‘Springbok-laden’ Sharks team losing their first 5 games sells.
Context are for people that do not read blogs and newspapers.
15 Mar 2010, 18:02 pm
@elliott2: 203. After a site search using google chrome I remember.
Another name changer. You are the little one with the former “Latin” name – ET. The fool professing to be an expert in Sport science, a protege of Prof Noakes, no less. After reading some of your pseudo empirical twaddle I concluded that either UCT sports med was:
- Rubbish (and Prof. Noakes is a “snake oil salesman”, if you are a professed protege)
or
- You are a fantasist.
The latter is most likely.
I also asked you whether you were black? You presumed I am white (whatever that means).
You haven’t answered me.
15 Mar 2010, 18:07 pm
@Transformation: It may actually be a good thing to have Jake White coaching the Sharks. JW will make a huge improvement over the crrent setup and he won’t take cr*p from Brian van Zyl.
15 Mar 2010, 18:11 pm
Transie
Jake has been touted by many as the man for an ambulance job at the sharks but not by keo..
there has been trouble in paradise..
15 Mar 2010, 18:14 pm
@Heavens Game:
elliott2 and et are two persona sitting inside his head, each fighting to get a chance to make an appearance on keo.
there is a medical term for it i believe – schizophrenia?
15 Mar 2010, 18:15 pm
Bakkies is from Newcastle.
Wish we had kept him.
15 Mar 2010, 18:17 pm
@charo: 218. Lol. Hi Charo. I am baiting the little bear. It may have to come down to you mentioning your 2 little nephews again. That may do it.
15 Mar 2010, 18:24 pm
@Oxy moron: 219 Maybe there are a few of Bakkie’s cousins or an undiscovered brother that know one knows about. He may have been kept in confinement, weaned on boerewors, fed red meat, and made to watch videos of Sharks winning or Boks beating the ABs night and day. Only to be released in time for the WC (Boks) and S15 (Sharks) next year. Maybe there is a secret clone farm of Bakkies (Part of the advanced Sharks Academy) located in a maximum security complex between Newcastle and Vryheid.
15 Mar 2010, 18:27 pm
I would have sworn Bakkies was from the East Rand…
You live and learn I suppose.
15 Mar 2010, 18:27 pm
@Heavens Game: 221. WTF – read that again “know one” – no one/nobody. Jeez, I am hitting caffeine/nicotine psychosis.
15 Mar 2010, 18:34 pm
@PissAnt:
Wikipedia
Date of birth 22 September 1979 (1979-09-22) (age 30)
Place of birth Newcastle, South Africa
you never know though, someone from Newcastle might have got a little keen on his Wikipedia page
15 Mar 2010, 18:39 pm
“Both teams are playing the best rugby in the competition and, as the cliché goes, when the Bulls and Province are strong, so too is South African rugby.”
Bok rugby did quite well with the Sharks being the best. Sharks were team of the 90′s (RWC 1995, and a very good Bok side captained by Teichmann). A dip in the trend under Krige – “successful WP –>Boks?”.
A RWC 2007 win with a Sharks Captain at the helm and a large part of the team consisting of Sharks players. Like wise for a win against the BI Lions.
Although it is good that particularly the Bulls are doing well, and that the Stormers have had a great start. However if the Stormers do not meet expectations and don’t make the knockouts, or heaven forbid, end up lower than the Sharks on the log, revenge will be sweet.
15 Mar 2010, 18:47 pm
@gunther:keo ie HSM, is to my knowledge heavily invested to JWWW, not only in the “consultancy” arena but in the coaching courses that they ran for high school coaches. Speaking of which, what happened to the u15 selborne coach who was hired by jake as rugby manager for the Lions in last year’s Currie Cup?
@Heavens Game: with Hugh Reece-Edwards there i don’t know about Jake actually coming through, i heard somewhere that the two didn’t get along…
15 Mar 2010, 18:55 pm
@Transformation: 226. Nobody seems to get along with JW, other than John Smit. However he is “quite” a successful coach. Has a better CV than Plum or HRE. I think Straeuli and Van Zyl will be the obstacles if JW wanted the job. He could bring along Eddie Jones too – that would do.
15 Mar 2010, 19:00 pm
Bakkies was born in Newcastle, went to Goedehoop Primary School, then went to Vereeniging THS & Middelburg THS…
15 Mar 2010, 19:02 pm
is Grrr, I use to be a Lion around here??
15 Mar 2010, 19:08 pm
@Transformation:
there has been a parting of winning ways…
15 Mar 2010, 19:13 pm
JW as a washed up has been that got lucky once don’t mean lightening strikes twice or lucky packets produce bonanza’s charms twice in succession.
Van Zyl and Streauli are the two flies in the ointment at Sharks but just as JW couldn’t quite hack it at Lions he won’t hack it at Sharks neither. He’s a has been just like his protege Smitty boy though John Smits got about a thousand times more credibility and character than his mentor charlatan would ever have.
Maybe Smit himself is being groomed as Sharks caretaker player coach after Plum. He’d do better at coaching than at tight head prop for now. If I’m him I make the switch rather sooner than later.
Always thought Bakkies was from Vaal Driehoek daar van waar die yster manne afkom. Vd Bijl Vereneging of daai omgewing. Wonder where I got that impression.
15 Mar 2010, 19:17 pm
speaking of washed up old has beens…
15 Mar 2010, 19:17 pm
@Heavens Game: it’s funny how this merry-go-round of coaches goes, in 2000 [the year that the sharks finished last: won 1 game, drew 1 & lost 9] Hugh Reece Edwards was the coach & his assistants were Jake White & Allister Coetzee, they all got booted for claiming the wooden spoon & Rudolf Straueli took over from them.
Now 10 years later, Straueli is the Contracts Manager, Hugh Reece-Edwards is a coaching consultant & as rumoured Jake is waiting in the wings to administer the ambulance job. Is there an old boys club that is responsible for running rugby in SA?
15 Mar 2010, 19:19 pm
@skopskiet: 231. Yes. But Smitty boy will lead the Boks once agin in the RWC 2011, possibly to be the 1st and only Captain to lead a side to 2 WCs. That will be brilliant and then he will retire – laughing at those SA doubters, particularly from Stormers country. If Smit was a Stormer, or did for the Stormers what he has done for the Sharks and the Boks, I suspect he would be walking on water by now.
15 Mar 2010, 19:30 pm
@Transformation: 233. Definitely an old boys club at the Sharks. Although Straeuli and Van Zyl have a lot to answer for, there is a definite cabal behind the scenes. I reckon Ian Mac – a saint in his time – definitely had his favourite players. This preference has been converted to coach favourites and it isn’t working – sometimes good players don’t make good coaches. eg Putt, Reece-Edwards, Plumtree (all Mac favourites) not to mention Bashford. Watch for the entrance of Fyvie/Teichmann at this rate.
JW would be good for the Sharks – his lack of success earlier as assistant coach is probably due to him not being a “Durbs/North Durban/Crusader” or Hilton/Michaelhouse old boy. An outsider can find it difficult. He would probably cause much strife – which might be exactly what is needed to stop the rot.
15 Mar 2010, 19:32 pm
@Heavens Game: yes you are correct.
smitty will silence all his detractors as usual and there will be great praise from all the couch critics who whined their way through this year.
this has happened before but the whining is coming from the south this time.
15 Mar 2010, 19:35 pm
@Heavens Game: be careful about knocking the sharks culture that has brought us far more success than the stormers can dream of mate.
the season has turned to shite but barring a few reffing decisions and a few missed kicks it could all be looking very different.
the sharks will be back, of that i have no doubt.
15 Mar 2010, 19:36 pm
Smit goes to World Cup at tight head or even at hooker you can kiss that trophy good bye right here right now. Smit is a liability on the field under his current metabolism, that frame is not designed for popping up scrums nor for being mobile in the hooking position. So by all means carry that weight to 2011 if you so wish to labor the entire team with such non effective obesity, but boy you gonna be carrying that weight a long time.
15 Mar 2010, 19:41 pm
@rangerman: 236. It has happened. Remember the Gary Botha business coming from Bulls country. We all know how Smit responded to that, and how JW stuck with his Captain.
What happened to Gary Botha – went to Quins and wasn’t a huge success there. I saw him in Richmond station (London), without all the adulation he probably receives in Pretoria, and he looked like a complete lost boy.
He’s back in Pretoria, and what price until the calls start emanating once again – this time at the expense of Bismarck.
15 Mar 2010, 19:43 pm
@Wp_FanS14: Wonder if it is his article in the beeld. See the guys on wetalkrugby doesn’t like the article. Funny
15 Mar 2010, 19:49 pm
@skopskiet: 238. You know, even though JW and Smitty brought back the WC 2007 – people still called for their heads and JW got the chop. Smitty, nevertheless has proven himself to PdV and to his Bok team mates. Conditioning will come – its early days yet, in terms of next year’s WC and even this year’s 3N. Even for the Sharks – yes, this season is a disaster and they will probably not reach the knockouts, but more impossible feats have happened in the S14. The Boks and the Sharks need Smit.
15 Mar 2010, 19:50 pm
@Heavens Game: yup, all the experts on here eh?
you would think we had won the 3n 10 times and not just 3 times (twice with js at the helm).
oh well, pointless talking to the mob when they start getting in a froth i suppose.
15 Mar 2010, 19:51 pm
@rangerman:do you have such low standards that you always measure your team relative to what the stormers achieve? I mean really dude, are you so obsessed with them, why not make a comparison to the bulls
@skopskiet: lmao @ “doesn’t mean lightning doesn’t strike twice or lucky packet produces bonanzad charms twice in succession” you are the greatest skop!
15 Mar 2010, 19:56 pm
@Transformation: ?
what are you on about pal.
the stormers fans have been the most vocal by far in downing the sharks so i simply drew a comparison between the two sides.
its not my fault they last made the playoffs in 1998 mate. i know you dont like the sharks but i always took you for a crusaders fan, not a stormers fan?
15 Mar 2010, 20:00 pm
@rangerman: 242. Not pointless – it is a source of great amusement to see the cycle of adulation, tall poppy syndrome, criticism, flagellation and then adulation (with convenient memory loss of crticism) accompanied by this warped logic eg. “Smit is a passenger, he’s overweight” and so on/so forth.
I remember similar things said about the great Os du Randt. People went as far as accusing the man of cowardice at one stage.
15 Mar 2010, 20:03 pm
242. Same comment awaiting mod – I send again. Not pointless – it is a source of great amusement to see the cycle of adulation, tall poppy syndrome, criticism, flagellation and then adulation (with convenient memory loss of crticism) accompanied by this warped logic eg. “Smit is a passenger, he’s overweight” and so on/so forth.
I remember similar things said about the great Os du Randt. People went as far as accusing the man of cowardice at one stage.
The court of public opinion frequently gets proven wrong.
15 Mar 2010, 20:03 pm
why no varsity cup thread?
oh ja, no cpae sides playing.
for anyone interested, uj just scord after a lovely build up.
32-32 uj vs shimlas.
15 Mar 2010, 20:04 pm
@skopskiet:
jake white is a legend….erasmus and coetzee are straight out of the JW school of thought.
no wonder the stormers look half decent for a change.
15 Mar 2010, 20:04 pm
cape sides.
penalty to shimlas, lineout, try time!
37-32, conversion to come.
15 Mar 2010, 20:05 pm
@rangerman: 242. I have replied RM but comments awaiting moderation.
15 Mar 2010, 20:06 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl:
ja, i love all the jake white bashers worshipping AC. seems the 4 years he spent with jake werent enough to taint him, lucky guy.
funnily enough all the talk about eddie jones sorting out AC’s backline seems to have gome quiet
15 Mar 2010, 20:08 pm
@Heavens Game: no worries, the moderation function is pretty **** actually.
15 Mar 2010, 20:11 pm
the uj scrummie, snyman, is pretty usefull.
15 Mar 2010, 20:12 pm
I agree with Skop on this issue 100%%….we want to retain WC…and i believe we can….we just have to forget the sentimentality and go for the jugular….Kiwis are vulnerable…..Aussies are on the up but its the French we really must be wary of. June 12 will be key, we need to beat them at Newlands to get some sort of physchological advantage. We wont beat them with Smit at 3….thats for sure! They will simply moer us in the scrums and negate Spies,FDPand MS….as we see the sharks being negated at 8,9and 10 currently. Anyone disputing that Smit is a liability is in mount Cuckoo land….and simply being candy flossed romantics…..surely the mounting shark losses are bringing smits problems at 3 into focus??
Crystal ball for 2011 30 man squad….[ yes i know its early daye ]
15 Frans Steyn….Z Kirchner
14 Mapoe…JPP
13 J FOurie …J DE Jongh
12 JDV…W Olivier
11 habana…nokwe
10 m steyn….butch james
9 fdp….januarie
8 spies…joe van niekerk
7 juan smith…s burger [ yes...i am happy he is back! ]
6 brussow…dewalt potgieter
5 Matfield…bekker
4 bakkies…j kruger
3 bj….cj
2 bissy….g botha/t liebenberg
1 beast…guthro.
Matfield skipper.
Lets go for the throat….no mercy….no candy floss…no sentimental;ity….
smit can be the supersports commentator.
15 Mar 2010, 20:15 pm
@grant10: welcome back grant.
needless to say, i disagree.
15 Mar 2010, 20:17 pm
@grant10: 254. As much as you make great points on this site, as one of the prominent bloggers, you do have a peculiar case of ABS (Anyone But Smit). Its good to see that you see the worth of Schalk again – hopeflly if and when Smit proves his worth you can eat these words.
15 Mar 2010, 20:18 pm
@grant10: Hey G10….It looked wierd here without you!!
The Stormers did well whilst I was away!!
15 Mar 2010, 20:19 pm
shimlas drawing away now.
49-32 with a conversion to come.
ok, dinner time, chat later.
15 Mar 2010, 20:22 pm
@rangerman: So is dinner something you caught or shot yourself?
Enjoy…..What wine would you drink with Kudu btw?
15 Mar 2010, 20:25 pm
@grant10: I would change two things.
I would swap Potties and Schalla around. The former is playing S14 @ 7 and the latter @6, so why rock the boat? Although I must say that there is a case to be made for your 7- and thus your tackler, to be closer to his target and for the fetcher to arrive a little later, on defence but to have them swap back on your own ball.
The second thing is that I believe Andries Bekker is growing with every game as a 5, so he would be my logical successor to Victor currently. It is up to Juandre Kruger to change that status quo in the CC.
15 Mar 2010, 20:25 pm
@carol: a merlot?
and no, chicken schnitzel tonight.
have a good evening carol.
15 Mar 2010, 20:26 pm
@carol: hi carol
markets busy again….so i am working hard….hope you enjoyed Italy….
still hot as hell here in Clifton….looking forward to the winter !
@Heavens Game: I will happily eat the words….but Smit is klaar, finito, all over rover…..especially at 3 mate….sorry to be the voice of truth here….but he is way behind currently….even at 2 he has little chance on merit of making boks….at 3, he is a walking time bomb….useless!
Sharks are being taken to the cleaners at scrum time when smit at 3, even jannie dup miles better than him….Saturday smit was the cause of that loss….go watch the 2 x trys….brumbies manhandled smit at will….thats just the facts….
now, as i have said 1000 times…sharks can do whatever they want, please merciful angels just dont do it to the boks PDV….french are waiting….and watching….
Get spies onto the front foot no one will beat boks….choose smit at 3 we vulnerable….not science this…its easy peasy….just watch unemotionally….and all will be revealed.
15 Mar 2010, 20:30 pm
@catleya: 258
I am making room there for Dewalt….he is such a damn fine player…stood out again Sat after a long injury…..he must go to WCimo…..the future bok skipper.
Bekker has been superb…must be there….i have heard and seen a bit of J Kruger….must admit i am not sure if he is in the mtfield or bakkies mould….but he has a massive reputation. Of course he must walk the talk in CC…
15 Mar 2010, 20:34 pm
things to do….Catleya…will chat soon…always enjoy your opinions…
Carol…see you soon…
outta here
15 Mar 2010, 20:40 pm
@grant10: “Looking forward to winter”…..!!!! I can’t wait for winter to go……
Send your sun here!
See you another time!
15 Mar 2010, 20:40 pm
Anyone got the Ikey’s score?
15 Mar 2010, 20:53 pm
@PissAnt:
No matter:
Maties 33-17 Pukke
Shimlas 51-32 Uj
Ikeys 38-24 Tukkies
TUT 45-40 NMMU
15 Mar 2010, 20:58 pm
@grant10: 261. I agree with most of what you say – except for Smit. Maybe I and other supporters see in him what successive Bok coaches see (not to say that is always right though, and concede that he needs conditioning at the moment).
15 Mar 2010, 20:59 pm
@carol: Hallo Carol – I will send you loads of sun
15 Mar 2010, 21:02 pm
I would love to see SA Rugby introduce a “State of Origin” style game. Would be most interesting.
15 Mar 2010, 21:05 pm
@rangerman: 242. Sent again RM.
Not pointless – it is a source of great amusement to see the cycle of adulation, tall poppy syndrome, criticism, flagellation and then adulation (with convenient memory loss of crticism) accompanied by this warped logic eg. “Smit is a passenger, he’s overweight” and so on/so forth.
I remember similar things said about the great Os du Randt. People went as far as accusing the man of cowardice at one stage.
The court of public opinion frequently gets proven wrong.
15 Mar 2010, 21:26 pm
@Heavens Game: Smit is playing out of position and has added a lot of bulk to his frame….he will struggle to make it back as a world class 2….i watched Bissy closely on Sat….he had a huge game…he was all over the park….seriously,at times i couldnt find Smit….he was so far behind play….to even consider him as a better 2 than Bissy ,G Botha or Tiaan Liebenberg is simply madness.
Matfield grows in stature….and should get the armband…..the Boks will follow him i believe….and hthen we have the advantage of a team selected purely on merit.
All the greats have there time to call it a day….smit must do the right thing.
In the interests of the team.
15 Mar 2010, 21:36 pm
To win the Wc next year three players are key..Jdv and F.Steyn and BJ Botha. Jdv and BJ is coming back so that begs the question of whther or not Pdv will pick an overseas based player. The Smit at 3 thing has definately failed no doubt about it so BJ is a must, theres no other international quality tighthead in Sa. So with Smit, form will have to determine his inclusion as Matfield is a more than capable captain (rem the boks won in NZ with Matfield as captain) he just has to work on his frustration with the refs when things are not going our way. The way Bismarks playing now i would play Smit at 2 provided he slims down abit but the Wc is a long way away so if Bismark could recapture that form of last years 3nations then he would definately start with Smit off the bench in the last 20. In terms of depth, especially in the front row we not looking too good so thats something Pdv got to look at.
15 Mar 2010, 21:38 pm
@grant10: 272. Smit is a world class no. 2, and an entirely adequate 3, who is out of condition at the moment. What he may lack in terms of pure technique a la BJ Botha, pure strength vis Carl Hayman, and around the park dynamism eg. Castrogiovanni, he makes up for in leadership, game awareness and tactical nous. His skills aren’t bad either (remember the grubber – for Matfield I think).
Your concerns are well placed in terms of wanting the best for the Boks – but Smit is the best for the Boks. He would still be the no. 1 Bok Hooker if it wasn’t for Bismarck – he is the best in the world.
Smit will be a crucial piece of the puzzle come WC time – he can think on his feet during a high paced game and can influence Refs. (Remember Tonga, Fiji, BI Lions tests 1 and 2.) Smit was the key turnaround factor when plan A and B were not working.
15 Mar 2010, 21:40 pm
@Mustard: “The Smit at 3 thing has definately failed” – thats funny, if you call a BI Lions series win, a 3N trophy and a 3 duck win over the ABs a failure.
15 Mar 2010, 21:42 pm
@grant10: but remember Smit has been training and focusing on tighthead so you cant compare him now with Bismak, he has two slim down and focus on playing hooker before you can make a comparison. Ask yourself, an in form Bismark or an in form Smit, then who would you pick at hooker. But the decision to move back to hooker for Smit then has to be made now so he can work on getting his mojo back.
15 Mar 2010, 21:45 pm
When was last time Smit led any team to victory?
2008 goes first game Smit gets dumped by Thorn we lose. Then Matfield, Van Niekerk and Januarie lead Bok’s to famous Dunedin victory. Then Perth, Cape Town and Durban idiot coaches drop Van Niekerk, and Januarie and Watson and play Burger, Smith, Spies, Kanko and Fdp and lose f.ng hand over f.ng fist 3 games on the trot, 2 at home. One by f.ng 0 points to 19!
Smit then resumes his leadership role and proceeds to lose last 5 games of S14 at Sharks 2009. Bok’s win against Br. Lions and Tri N thanks to 2 miracle discoveries in Brussow and Steyn had it not been for them 2009 would have panned out worse than 2008.
Smit then leads Bok’s to 2 losses at France and Ireland 2009 eoyt. Loses 3 warm ups with Sharks 2010 pre season. Loses 5 S14 openers 2010. Makes his losing streak since November 10 in succession as captain.
Total win loss ratio 2008 – 2010 = how much > or < than 50%. I'd hazard a guess < than 50%.
Overall success rate 2004 – 2010 would be an interesting statistic as Bok's and Sharks captain.
And everyone still reckon's he walks on water. Well I reckon he don't not by a long shot. 49-0 being just one of his famous milestones.
Lately his crown of thorns is getting heavier by the game. Before long he won't have much credibility left to save.
I don't quite know what everyone sees as this great inspiring captain that cannot inspire his team to win even 1 out of 10 games since October 2009. All I see is a pretty uninspiring captain huffing and puffing his way to loss after humiliating loss.
15 Mar 2010, 21:47 pm
@Heavens Game: dont let our teams succuess cover up the cracks thats blatantly obvious, thats just stupid. Our scrums havent been solid for a while now everyone can see that and if we want to ensure that we stay successful it has to be fixed.
15 Mar 2010, 21:50 pm
@skopskiet: 277. Smit wasn’t captain of the Sharks 2009 – it was Muller, was it not?
The losses on the eoyt were down to player fatigue (not just Smit)
Smit doesn’t walk on water – he isn’t a Stormer.
Smit has led a team to WC victory, 3N victory, and 3 duck victory over the ABs.
Smit is a tall poppy and people can’t resist trying to cut him down.
15 Mar 2010, 21:54 pm
@Mustard: 278. Yes, I agree there are cracks – but there are intangibles that Smit contributes that many supporters don’t acknowledge.
Even at his best, remember the Gary Botha saga, people were trying to knock him.
Yes he is low on conditioning at the moment, and yes, if he loses the Bok locker room and the faith of the coach then it will be time for him to retire. But with a fit Smit at the helm the Boks have a greater chance of winning the WC 2011 than without him.
15 Mar 2010, 21:55 pm
aagh baghdad cafe man. Smit ain’t no tall poppy he’s just a fat mushroom that don’t know when its harvest time.
15 Mar 2010, 21:56 pm
@skopskiet: loolll.
15 Mar 2010, 21:57 pm
must say reading keo`s theorys about the sharks and how no home grown talent is in kzn pisses me off…personally i blame ukzn ! the likes of uct stellenbosh and so on is a leech on all school boys talent -in the uct side there where 2 or 3 players who played in the same kearsney 1st xv …another thing keo ,please change youre cartoon because it makes u look smug ,cheeky and look like a bit of a moron,maybe you should change the name from keo.co.za to mrbean.co.za lol
and please people dont tell me im a moron becuase i cant spell corectly
there is plenty of school boy talent from kzn ,especially in the backlines ,english people arent as big as afrikaaners and therefor there arent huge forwards in natal -but there are many good backline players sigh :’(
15 Mar 2010, 21:57 pm
@skopskiet: in terms of the Boks, leadership is not a one man thing. Its Smit, Matfield, Fdp, Jdv, Smith and even Schalk all play their part. The fact that many coaches rate Smits leadership highly has to mean something, after all we dont know half the things that goes on behind the scenes. But iv always wondered if Smit would have the same effect off the bench or not.
15 Mar 2010, 22:03 pm
@Heavens Game: im not doubting his leadreship abilities at all, all im saying his not a tighthead. He is a hooker so needs to move back there quick so he regain his form of 2007. Il be happy if it works out in the end if he plays 3 but im afraid it doesnt look likely
15 Mar 2010, 22:05 pm
@Mustard: He is not a terrible tighthead either. He actually first started for the Sharks as a loosehead – not terrible there either.
15 Mar 2010, 22:12 pm
Smit had reasonably little to do with Bok’s success in 2009- those were extremely fortuitous victories that pivoted around a few factors. Not to mention some reasonably favourable reffing calls in Lions tour at home.
Two of these factors were
1. if Burger wasn’t suspended due to an eye guage Brussow would not have made the run on.
2. If Pienaar hadn’t froze after his kicks hit uprights then M. Steyn would not have been called on.
3. If Jaque Fourie had not made a try out of nothing in dying minutes of 2nd test and fed by debutante Brussow to make it, we would have lost.
4. Likewise if Steyn had not goaled a last minute 55 mt penalty gifted to us by brain **** R.O’G.
Likewise Ab’s and Aussie were bombarded by kick n chase tactics with young teams in rebuilding phase but we didn’t play all that much rugby to win 5 from 6 in the 3N. Was more about capitalizing on their weaknesses than driving home our strengths. Which all came undone when we tried same kick n chase crass against French and Irish on eoyt.
So to put it in perspective. M. Steyn and H. Brussow basically turned the team around from a one dimensional losing one to an effective kick n chase one dimensional winning one for about 4 months. Had it not been for those 2, Smit or no Smit we would have lost, if Pienaar and Burger had stayed in their pre supposed positions.
15 Mar 2010, 22:12 pm
Neither Bulls nor Stormers have left SA yet so this article is entirely invalid. Have Bulls had a neutral ref yet either ?
15 Mar 2010, 22:12 pm
@Heavens Game: He is a superkak tighthead….every loosehead isn the super 14 is having a feat at the expense of Smit…..please just be truthful….this sentimental rubbish about past victories and how he is indispensable insults the other boks….you really need to stop the candy floss and harp playing….that weakness will play into the kiwis,french and aussies hands come 2011, smit has to recondition first….then make a move for 2 jersy.
At 3 its a non starter….it simply is too high a risk imo.
The 3 debate should not even be a discussion point.
As for 2 …..currently he has no chance in hell on merit….no chance.
15 Mar 2010, 22:12 pm
feat is feast
15 Mar 2010, 22:16 pm
@skopskiet: you can’t just look at the negatives skop, you should look at the positives too to provide balance.
@grant10: jeez you’re not still at it
you had a 2 day break now you’re straight back into it 
15 Mar 2010, 22:19 pm
@Heavens Game: This is the thing for me Heavens Game, we are the Springboks, one of the powerhouses of rugby, we shouldnt be settling for makeshift tightheads, happy with getting parity at scrum time, we should be looking at dominating the scrums, teams should fear our scrum so we can physically and mentally dominate them, even before the game starts half the battle could be won.So i ask, do you think we can dominate with Smit at 3 or are you one of those who are just happy with getting parity? Right now teams think our scrums are a joke and something theyl definately target, it shouldnt be that way boet.
15 Mar 2010, 22:19 pm
@Heavens Game: did you watch the crusaders game? Did you see what wyatt crockett did to john smit? No man, smit’s dignity is being dragged in the mud here, even ryan vrede in his predictions started his analysis of the sharks & tahs game by saying “in 2009 john smit was benn robinson’s bunny”
Now vrede is firm “captain in the cauldron” disciple, for him to pen such is very telling…how must smit walk into press conferences after bok games and be confident when he is being pomped by every other loosehead in the game?
15 Mar 2010, 22:20 pm
A few things are looking good in the Cape:
1. The Stormers rugby is looking promising
2. The Kaapse Klopse – judging from the documentary on Kyknet – is flourishing
3. The Hanepoot grapes as good as always
WiePie jou lekke ding!
15 Mar 2010, 22:20 pm
if we want a dominant scrum, then smit must play @ 2. this will negate the open play of bismark but we will push back most other teams at scrumtime.
if we want an ok scrum but a more mobile hooker, play bizzie @ 2.
the other hookers in the country don’t even come into contention.
perhaps the answer is smit @2 for 60 mins then unleash bizzie?
15 Mar 2010, 22:21 pm
@Transformation: isn’t vrede is a WP fan like the rest of the journalists on here?
15 Mar 2010, 22:21 pm
@Big Hit: 288
It is the 1 and only area i reckon we could lose WC….i seriously believe boks , if we choose correct, will be the 1 st team to defend Bill…..simple as that.
We get our sentimentality thrown out , as it should be, we can be unstoppable…..depth is coming through nicely….i am thrilled at some of the players stepping up.
But we need to respect the basics….and having seen the sharks in disarray because of this lack of respect has me even more convinced that Smit must retire. He is a liability. A great captain and a legend and all that….but now simply not good enough to merit his place…..sorry, but thats a fact….
15 Mar 2010, 22:23 pm
@skopskiet: thas a very negative perspective ,and you cannot say those things would have happend for sure ,btw did u watch the behind the scenes of the springboks 09? from that you can see smit was a good leader ,in that second test when the chips whre down he wasnt the nice calm happy guy he always seems to be ,he was aggresive and bought out some balls on the white line mentality ,smits great and his experience and been there done that know how he brings to the park is invaluable ,plain to see and understand really ,another thing ,when i watch with my father and see young guns come to the seen and i say he should be a springbok soon he always reminds me of vicxtor matfield and bakkies ,and how they are the king pins of the bulls and bok squads ,and how them against any young guns (issac ross for example )is a miss match theyve been there beaten the best ,know how to beat the best -with the world cup in nz id want the guys who know how to beat them -the habanas matfields bothas jpp devilliers frans steyn morne and yes smit-food for thought
15 Mar 2010, 22:25 pm
charo…we drop bissy for smit we need our heads read imo….Bissy is a monster….the worlds premier 2 imo….There we go accomodating again?
No…lets see how a BJ, Bissy , beast front row goes first….if they do well….smit must be benched…or leave the arena….
i just cant see the value add anymore…
15 Mar 2010, 22:25 pm
@grant10: somone has to make a descision on Smit quickly. At first i thought Plum was just taking directive from Pdv but then again with the Bismark attitude problems i wouldnt be surprised if Pdv said nothing and hes forced to play him at 3 to keep Bissy happy and lees friction all round. I dunno boet but things not looking healthy at the sharks
15 Mar 2010, 22:27 pm
cheers all….
outta here
15 Mar 2010, 22:29 pm
@Mustard: ja….i personally reckon plum is just the ham in the sandwich….not sure hecan do a damn thing ….but all i know is play smit at 3 vs landers and its goodnite nurse….loss no 6 coming.
anyway…cheers mate.
15 Mar 2010, 22:29 pm
@grant10: I don’t think the coaches will be throwing him in against the best scrummagers like Robinson/Sheridan etc, if he does play 3 he’ll likely only start against average scrummagers like Jenkins/Woodcock etc.
Boks will find it tough this year I think, Paddy O’Brien will be cracking down on all their areas of strength.
15 Mar 2010, 22:29 pm
I certainly hope you lot wished Karen for her bday
15 Mar 2010, 22:32 pm
@Black Panther: 288. Oh wise, normally angry and spitting Kiwi, for once I do actually agree with you.
15 Mar 2010, 22:35 pm
@Mustard: 292. Don’t kid yourself – teams have always targeted the Bok scrum. That is the way to beat the Boks.
15 Mar 2010, 22:36 pm
@rangerman: Oh fk. Here we go.
15 Mar 2010, 22:37 pm
grant, pity you went before i had time to respond.
i know you want a dominant scrum so spies, etc can shine.
but, for me, bizzie is a bit of a liability come scrum time. have never seen a dominant front row with him @2 except the 1st test against lions.
smit is the all time best scrummaging hooker. he looked after cj at the rwc2007 final
15 Mar 2010, 22:43 pm
@Transformation: 293. You are right, and I certainly don’t have the answers and I am not a front row expert. Smit certainly does have a few opponents who are his nemesis (eg Crockett, Robinson) – but in most games Smit more than copes and he adds to the team, especially the Boks, in ways other players don’t.
I am just pointing out some plusses of this Bok great that other people, in all the anti-Smit hysteria, seem to conveniently forget.
15 Mar 2010, 22:43 pm
@Oubaas2009: 121 is Wicus Blaauw going to play for Namibia at the RWC next year or his he holding out for a Bok cap?
15 Mar 2010, 22:44 pm
@Big Hit: England France going going to be tough for your boys Biggles.
I would hit the panic button now and get a decent coach or 2010 is going to be horrible for a proud rugby nation.
And no it’s not just the forwards coach it’s everything.
Get a Mallet/White/Shaun Edwards/Name a Kiwi. Just get a coach pronto.
15 Mar 2010, 22:46 pm
@SodaJoe: I might be agreeing with you after the France game, let’s see what happens first.
15 Mar 2010, 22:46 pm
@Big Hit:i don’t know what team vrede supports but he write really fawning articles about the blue bulls nonsense like “fourie du preez is the best rugby mind on the planet” wtf
@Big Hit: eish, now your 008 status is showing…we don’t buy that smit is a good tighthead, he is a quota player in that position ie not playing in that position merit.
15 Mar 2010, 22:49 pm
@charo: Miss Ghana. I know it sacriligeous to criticize John Smit by many.
But he is too slow. Even for 60 minutes. He is a good hooker past his best. He was always a rubbish 3.
Let’s just own up, and get a good front row – and by teh way – sorry Shark supporters – Beast is also not a very good prop right now – we have 2 guys in way better form tan him in Wian Du Preez and Guthro Steenkamp.
So BJ/Biz/Guthro with CJ on the bench to cover both sides.
(And Duane Vermulen is looking very good, a little slower than I would like, but would also be great on the bench. off topic I know but it’s hard to get a word in sideways with you bunch).
15 Mar 2010, 22:50 pm
on merit…
15 Mar 2010, 22:50 pm
@Big Hit: Well said. But I am getting pissed off with England now. This is just a waste of talent. Starting to remind me of the football team hiring Steve Mclaren.
15 Mar 2010, 22:53 pm
@Heavens Game: John Smit is a Springbok All Time Great. As a captain and in his position, but what gets lost is that reputation counts for fokkol on a rugby field – especially for a Kiwi/Aussie/Frenchman.
15 Mar 2010, 22:55 pm
@Transformation:
quite honestly without Smit, I think the Boks will fall apart if they lose. There are too many internal divisions all through the side on numerous different levels. His selection does depend on form however, and he needs to up his game around the park.
in Vrede is only being honest about Du Preez, most of the rest of world rugby thinks the same, you think he wouldn’t be NZ scrum-half or France 9? he definitely would.
15 Mar 2010, 22:57 pm
@SodaJoe: yes, perhaps we need a Fabio Capello…sadly I think hell will freeze over before the RFU hire a foreign coach.
15 Mar 2010, 22:58 pm
@skopskiet: 287. Why doesn’t someone ask the Boks who their “Cappie” is. I bet that most of the Boks will run through brick walls for Smit – he is a unifier and players from all provinces can relate to him and trust him. From the “walk-on-water” Stormers boys, to the “devilish” Bulls machines, to the Cheetahs “Hardmen from the Heartland” and the Sharks – they all respect him and follow the guy as their leader. (Even those surrender ******* from the Lions – he has room for them too)
15 Mar 2010, 22:58 pm
@Big Hit: Well then get Shaun Edwards. Outstanding coach.
I would like to see him coach a S14 side for 3 years then go and coach England in to 2015 RWC.
But he can take over England now, can’t do worse than Johnno.
15 Mar 2010, 22:59 pm
@Transformation: 315. Just think of him as an honourable quota player (like Luke Watson) – that should help you.
15 Mar 2010, 23:01 pm
Like sands through the hourglass of time so these are the days of our lives…
15 Mar 2010, 23:01 pm
@Heavens Game: Bud. I am a Lions supporter and I don’t have space for them, so Smitty is forgiven.
But what’s wrong with Victor Matfield who wins, seems to have lost his petulance and has a good kop on his head?
Supported by any one of these veterans – Smith, Burger, FdP, etc.
And you know what, I think Piet Snor’s not dof. I think he will do it gently, but John’s not going to make the cut for 3N. Sorry.
15 Mar 2010, 23:01 pm
@SodaJoe: Shaun Edwards is strictly a defence coach, Johnson tried to hire him in 2008 but he was contracted to Wales. Mallet is the best option but sadly the Italians have got him.
15 Mar 2010, 23:02 pm
@gunther: Hello Shunts.
15 Mar 2010, 23:02 pm
@gunther: I think that the sand might have run out on John.
15 Mar 2010, 23:03 pm
@Big Hit: i think mike phillips is itching to have another crack @ du preez…is du preez a better rugby mind than say…………………dan carter?
What internal divisions?
15 Mar 2010, 23:03 pm
Smit is 2 fat for hooker. 123 kg is too cumbersome for hooker. And he’s too soft for prop especially 3.
Other mobile tough hooker’s are around 110 kg max and get about the park effectively.
When Bj is at 3 and Smit goes 2 then our front row suddenly takes on super human dimensions because we got Smits bulk at 2 coupled with Bj’s tenacious low centre of gravity strength at 3 and Beast similarly to Bj at 1 with little more mobility.
But then we lose all our loose play momentum because neither Bj nor Smit provides much mobility and activity in loose.
I rate Liebenberg ahead of both Smit and Bismark because he has a bit of both in him. He’s effective both in tight and in loose. In Smits case he’s a decent tight game hooker but a lousy loose game one and Bismark is the reverse.
Strauss is good in loose but weak in tight. Maku on the other hand has plenty promise as a good all round hooker. Gary Botha is just past tense far as I’m concerned.
My 2 hooker’s for Wc would be Liebenberg and Bismark.
My Tight heads would be Kruger and perhaps Buys and Bj.
Loose heads Gurthro, Beast, Oosthuisen, Blaauw, Heinke.
Afraid only thing keeping Smit in the team is his famous leadership qualities because both at hooker and at tight head in my book he fails miserably, especially beyond 60 min, then he’s just simply passe.
15 Mar 2010, 23:05 pm
@SodaJoe:
what’s this “miss ghana” thing
similar to the grant speedo wind up?
smittie, if he gets back to his fighting weight, is still a formidable international hooker.
he hurts opposition front rows.
bizzie is a monster in the loose but grant wants a dominant front row so spies and fdp can do their thing.
must say guthro destroyed that landers 3 on saturday.
so….guthro, smit, bj….then lets spies and fdp loose do wreak havoc?
15 Mar 2010, 23:05 pm
@SodaJoe: 324. Smit will be the Captain for 3Ns and guess what, the Boks won’t be as successful this year as last year. There will be the traditional gnashing of teeth right up to the WC and then with Smit as leader they will do a damned good job of defending the Crown/Cup.
15 Mar 2010, 23:05 pm
@Transformation: Fourie Du Preez is as good as it gets in terms of rugby brain. Comparing him to Carter is unfair or flattering. Both are rugby geniuses.
15 Mar 2010, 23:06 pm
do = to
15 Mar 2010, 23:06 pm
@Transformation: Mike Phillps is a good srcumhalf, but not a rugby genius.
15 Mar 2010, 23:07 pm
@skopskiet: 329. You forget the old adage: “Form is temporary, class is permanent”. Smit is a class Bok Captain – the most successful ever, in fact. Probably one of the best hookers to have graced the green and gold, and not a bad tighthead.
15 Mar 2010, 23:08 pm
@charo: You are the best looking girl on the West African beach, everyone says that.
Yes – BJ, Biz, Guthro (WTF happened to him? Scrumming like crazy now – and that ‘Landers team can scrum – fookall else, but they can scrum). We have to get front foot ball – it’s basic.
15 Mar 2010, 23:10 pm
@Heavens Game: what honour is there in being a quota? Between jannie du plessis & j smit the sharks are in sh*t @ tihgthead…i feel for plum….when was the last time jannie du plessis had a great game cos after literally being smashed to pieces by the leicester scrum guthro has upped the ante and regained his pride, but jannie kan nie scrum nie has gone from bad to worse…
15 Mar 2010, 23:10 pm
@skopskiet: Buys has disappointed me this season. Kruger – too erratic, strong one minuted rogered the next.
Coenie Oosthuizen on the other hand is bloody good, Wian is outstanding to keep him out, but Guthro is exceptional this year. Beast – pretty average at best.
15 Mar 2010, 23:11 pm
@Heavens Game: Conjecture. On both our parts. But I suspect I am MUCH more right than you. Of course.
15 Mar 2010, 23:12 pm
@Transformation: Tannie unless you want to ******** Hondo fokkoff with the word quota.
15 Mar 2010, 23:13 pm
@SodaJoe: equally saying fourie du preez is the best rugby mind on the planet is ludicrous…
15 Mar 2010, 23:14 pm
@Heavens Game: 332 Again reputation counts for nothing on a rugby field and John is being moered all over the park. Not emotional, just watch the game.
15 Mar 2010, 23:14 pm
Yoda joe
How dem lions …
15 Mar 2010, 23:14 pm
will probably be shot down in flames but i reckon fdp has a better rugby brain than dan carter.
why?
because the scrumhalf has so little time and space to make decisions compared with the flyhalf.
the way fdp played in that 36-0 against england in rwc2007 was the best display of rugby i have ever seen in my life.
am sure even big hit will agree – it was phenomenal
15 Mar 2010, 23:15 pm
@Transformation: 338. Why? he probably is. IMHO. But Carter runs him close. The difference is FdP has to make more decisions more quickly. Again IMHO.
15 Mar 2010, 23:15 pm
@charo: snap.
15 Mar 2010, 23:16 pm
@Transformation: 337. You don’t think Guthros scrumming has something to do with the Bulls scrum unit as a whole. The way those Bulls are going now, I suspect they have found some “secret” technique like the Pumas “Bajada”. Anyway it is an improvement, but if Smit had to be a part of the Bulls scrum, he wouldn’t be bad either.
15 Mar 2010, 23:16 pm
@gunther: Dem Lions are useless cnuts.
15 Mar 2010, 23:16 pm
@SodaJoe: #337 what the hell?
15 Mar 2010, 23:17 pm
@Heavens Game: It’s always “as a whole”. But you tend to be as strong as the weakest link. And has ever been thus.
15 Mar 2010, 23:17 pm
@Transformation: I hate it when the racists use it, and I think it demeans you. So don’t use it. Asseblief ou pellie.
15 Mar 2010, 23:18 pm
@Transformation: provincialism amongst others, a post-’08 Phillips isn’t a patch on FDP in terms of his all round game, he’s a big physical lump however. I don’t know about Carter, great playmaker, great decision-maker? not so sure.
@skopskiet: Smit is perhaps not the most mobile hooker right now, but he was certainly the most mobile test No.3 in the world last season. Liebenberg is playing well I agree.
15 Mar 2010, 23:20 pm
@charo: murdered us, and ended Shaun Perry’s test career. It’s rare you’ll find a player who is able to choose the right option and execute well over and over again.
15 Mar 2010, 23:21 pm
@Big Hit: Carter is unbelievable. As close to Barry Johnas we’ve seen since Barry-John. An he does more – he kicks for goal like a master.
What I would have given for Daniel Carter to have been South African over the last few years. Outstanding rugby player.
And by all accounts a good guy too.
With a hottie on his arm.
*******.
15 Mar 2010, 23:21 pm
@charo: i beg to differ…i have seen du preez flounder…
15 Mar 2010, 23:22 pm
@Big Hit: 350. And make it look so simple. That’s the difference.
It does not matter who leads the team FdP plays on, he always runs it.
15 Mar 2010, 23:24 pm
soda, da beaches in ghana damn fine marn.
plenty “cool spots” and da rasta boys always have good supply wee for da white boys
15 Mar 2010, 23:24 pm
@Transformation: Disregard the first year of the ELV’s, and in fact only the first games, thereafter he mastered it. Like no other.
The man is a rugby genius. Simple. Obvious.
15 Mar 2010, 23:24 pm
Scrumming is an 8 man sport…
15 Mar 2010, 23:25 pm
@charo: Don worrie about a ‘ting, every little ‘ting gonna be ol raait.
Gotta hand it to you. Big ask Ghana imo. But hey no show unless you go.
I have often loved reading guys posting from Syria, Mongolia, deepest darkest China, India.
15 Mar 2010, 23:26 pm
@gunther: That starts with 1,2,3. the unit. And actually usually with #3.
15 Mar 2010, 23:27 pm
Helloooo…..The only time I scrummed I hurt my ears!
15 Mar 2010, 23:28 pm
@carol: That couch rugby can be really dangerous. Defending your honor is tough business.
15 Mar 2010, 23:28 pm
@carol: ‘ello wee duck.
15 Mar 2010, 23:29 pm
@SodaJoe: It has been too long Soda!
Your Lions…..I go away for a week and the Lions go from bad to really quite drastically terrible!!
15 Mar 2010, 23:30 pm
@SodaJoe: #355 yeah right soda, what was carter doing with the same elvs? Putting 55 points on the blue bulls at loftus, where the usually frenzied crowd started leaving the stadium with 12 minutes left on the clock. Making excuses for a rugby mind hehehe
15 Mar 2010, 23:30 pm
@SodaJoe: No mixed rugby…..made me realise I was more of a fullback!! But a bit like Percy…..bad under a high ball!!
15 Mar 2010, 23:33 pm
Fdp got little to do with rugby brain. He’s got some natural instinct but not all that much brains. A good rugby brain would not have helped us lose 49-0 where Gregan had a field day with him just like a puppy with a rag doll. Or in our 19-0 hammering in Cape Town 2008. Same goes for our very ordinary showings in eoyt games vs France and Ireland where Fdp probably the chief orchestrator of the loss with his dumb fak up n unders all f.ng game long.
No sorry that ain’t no rugby brain thats just a 1 dimensional doos robot on overdrive.
You wanna see a rugby brain watch Genia rip him a new one when Bulls go to Brisbane later few games from now, and take a gander at Duvenhage showing the maestro genius how it actually gets done at Newlands later on. Then come talk again about immaculate rugby brains.
15 Mar 2010, 23:33 pm
@Transformation:
hi transie,
i had the priviledge of watching gareth edwards for the lions at newlands.
at the time, the best scrummie in the world by a long shot.
but, in the modern game, reckon fdp is as good.
i know the kiwi bloggers on keo rate him.
15 Mar 2010, 23:34 pm
@carol: Stop already. I have been pissed off for the whole weekend. And I didn’t bloody hold high hopes any way.
So, I can’t support a non-SA team. I support all SA teams when they play. But allegiance is different, being a true fan is a lifelong commitment. And that excludes:
The ******* Bulls – across teh river from us Handsome Devils and the home of Naas Botha & Doos v d Westhuizen. So no.
Having being pounded by Grey Bloem high school rugby players I am not supporting the Cheaters.
Sharks are too windgat in their speedos and peroxide hair. So I am above that.
Stormers are Sharks with peroxide and speedos under their cycling shorts. No handsome devil would cross that line.
I am left with Border – The Mighty Elephants.
And The Mighty Whites – another team giving me heartburn, but heartburn is better than heartache
15 Mar 2010, 23:35 pm
Soda
Barney just needs to get his mojo back
at the moment he looks like a zim farmer who has just heard his doorbell ring..
15 Mar 2010, 23:36 pm
@skopskiet: Duvenhage lol, you clearly favour the runner above all skoppie, but I think FDP deserves credit where it’s due, he can do it all.
15 Mar 2010, 23:36 pm
@SodaJoe:
joe, ghana is a soft landing by west african standards.
nigeria, on da udder hand…..is full on in your face non-stop aggravation.
had a posting there……ended up with a bleeding ulcer.
ghana is a coooool place bru. just a fading infrastructure
15 Mar 2010, 23:36 pm
@carol: 364. I am too kind to walk through all those open doors. Carol you have lost none of your naivete after all these years.
15 Mar 2010, 23:37 pm
@skopskiet: Ok. Let’s talk later then.
15 Mar 2010, 23:39 pm
@gunther:
hahahaha….sad but true
15 Mar 2010, 23:39 pm
@SodaJoe: Soda, have you been quoted in the ‘Bloggers Section in S.A Rugby recently?
That is a great summing up of your teams!
You are caught between a rock and a hard place!
15 Mar 2010, 23:43 pm
@SodaJoe: You are a bad, bad man….I would never have noticed that!!
15 Mar 2010, 23:43 pm
@gunther: 368. Having you bell rung every time you play will do that to you.
I don’t think John’s dof, I think he knows he’s done and i suspect he will retire gracefully at the end of S14. And he will still be a legend in my book.
15 Mar 2010, 23:47 pm
must remember to not type the name of the country where n*ger*ans come from.
always gets “moderated”
typed such a nice long post to soda…..for nothing in the end
15 Mar 2010, 23:47 pm
@carol: 373. I am too scared of Skops to show my face on any other blog.
To be called a fukadilly do wally no good for nothing yabba dabba diddly squat snake in the grass is hard for any man to handle.
15 Mar 2010, 23:48 pm
@charo: Yeah baby. Take that. Roy is my mate.
15 Mar 2010, 23:50 pm
@charo: look i rate fdp, that’s why is still don’t like giteau for what he did to him @ newlands last year, i just don’t fall for the whole hyperbole of the best rugby mind on the planet stuff. I reckon it’s a lot of bullsh*t baffling brains.
15 Mar 2010, 23:51 pm
@SodaJoe: 361. And here we go again – Smit is not a bad 3. He holds his own against most at 3 and is better than most at 2, but he brings more to the Boks than just the attributes of those positions. He is the most successful Springbok Captain of all time – probably the most successful Captain of all time full-stop. He is trusted by successive Bok coaches which says a lot for the man. So this anti-Smit hysteria/propaganda/tall-poppy syndrome needs to be deconstructed for what it is. At the moment his form isn’t great and he does lack conditioning, but as we al know form is temporary and class is permanent
15 Mar 2010, 23:51 pm
@SodaJoe:
actually it was a very informative post – could have made national geographic if there was a wide awake journalist around
15 Mar 2010, 23:52 pm
@skopskiet: 368. What has Genia won?
15 Mar 2010, 23:53 pm
@Transformation: I think Matt Giteau is also a brilliant rugby player. Unfortunately, unlike Dan Carter, he lives up to his name – he is a git. An absolute doos.
15 Mar 2010, 23:54 pm
@SodaJoe: haven’t seen Roy over here is ages!!
15 Mar 2010, 23:57 pm
@Transformation:
hey, i’ve seen fdp have shockers.
just like i’ve seen messi not at his best.
top sportsmen are like that.
but watched ernie smoke the field at wgc last night – what a golfer (until tiger comes back maybe)
15 Mar 2010, 23:58 pm
@Heavens Game: Bud. Most know me as not being that hyperbolic. Ok, I am quite hyperbolic. But quite rational when it comes to rugby players. I just want to win. And all I asked lasy year was to win B&IL series and beat NZ twice on the wya to winning the 3N. So thanks be to the rugby gods.
Again, rugby is a tough game, it is physically sapping and becoming increasingly so, not least of all within the front row.
So despite John’s history as a legendary player and captain, it means bugger all on the field, and every sportsman knows that one thing surpasses class is time. Time. Simple.
He’s done his time and his body is not up to it anymore – as a hooker.
He was always kak at 3.
16 Mar 2010, 00:00 am
@charo: I typed 3 posts today that have been moderated – something about the Sharks and mentioning Straeuli, Van Zyl – nothing derogatory and still can’t figure out why. Was replying to Rangerman.
16 Mar 2010, 00:01 am
@Heavens Game: 382. aye
16 Mar 2010, 00:02 am
@Heavens Game: #380 i know @Big Hit has a big Geordie grin on his face right now thinking, “yes, let these crazy south africans take john smit to the wc next year, england will demolish them superbly”…
Who remembers an article on keo last year, where stephen jones [i think it was] was mocking the Springbok scrum? I mean, since when has the Bok scrum been a subject for ridicule…come on okes..
T
16 Mar 2010, 00:03 am
@Heavens Game:
frustrating.
why would the country name n*g*r*a be moderated for crying in a bloody bucket?
is it too close to n*gger?
16 Mar 2010, 00:04 am
@Transformation: aye
16 Mar 2010, 00:04 am
@charo: 390. And I’ve called you a cnut and nothing happens. Why is that?
16 Mar 2010, 00:06 am
@SodaJoe: 389. Yeah, done his time like all Bok captains – knives are drawn and put firmly between the shoulder blades way before it is the time they should go… And then the next generation under their new Capatin go through the whole learning curve.
A captain is important to a Rugby team – great teams have great Captains. The Boks are a great side and Smit is a great captain. Long may it last, beacause with him at the helm the Boks have a better chance of winning the WC than without him.
16 Mar 2010, 00:06 am
@Transformation:
i think big hits point was that there are only 8-10 scrums in a game but at least 5-6 x that many rucks.
so the difficult part is finding the balance between dominating a few scrums versus winning the breakdowns
16 Mar 2010, 00:07 am
@charo: 393. Niagra works
16 Mar 2010, 00:08 am
@SodaJoe:
**** me soda, you really are on a roll today.
must have had a great weekend
16 Mar 2010, 00:08 am
@charo: 393. Maybe it Ni*g*ria – bunch of prawn (D9) eaters.
16 Mar 2010, 00:09 am
@Heavens Game: it is
16 Mar 2010, 00:10 am
Night chaps – wife crowing from upstairs
16 Mar 2010, 00:12 am
@Heavens Game:
that was one of the best movies i’ve seen for a long time.
even my expat pom mates here loved it – even though they did not get the full irony
16 Mar 2010, 00:12 am
@SodaJoe: LOL.
16 Mar 2010, 00:12 am
For one thing Genia and Giteau gave our bok’s including Fdp and Morne Steyn a rugby lesson just 7 months ago in Brisbane, same as they did in same stadium in 2006.
So if you asking what has Genia won, well he’s had Fdp’s scalp once already, lets see next time out who comes our top of the pop’s
16 Mar 2010, 00:13 am
@Heavens Game: I agree, It’s not me backstabbing John Smit, I did not write the immortal lines “turbo-reverse” first.
If he was a cricketer he would not be scoring runs.
If he was a golfer he would not be making par.
That is all I am commenting on. Nothing more. He is simply not good enough to play for the Springboks – he was, with distinction, he isn’t any more.
This is not a Gary Teichmannesque exercise. A captain discarded too soon, and we paid the price.
That’s it. And to win international rugby games you have to have a team that can do EVERYTHING brilliantly, not just some of the things some of the time.
16 Mar 2010, 00:15 am
cheers hg
@skopskiet:
skoppie, agree, genia is one helluva rare talent and gits defies the laws of rugby players for his size
16 Mar 2010, 00:15 am
@charo: 396 Just hanging out with my mate.
16 Mar 2010, 00:15 am
out, its late, g.night
16 Mar 2010, 00:17 am
Ok girls. I have to go. Be good. See you all through the window.
16 Mar 2010, 00:21 am
out as well.
thanks for the good banter this evening.
**** me i needed it after the slow chinese torture from my principals
16 Mar 2010, 07:13 am
One of the best articles of 2010.
16 Mar 2010, 07:21 am
37. 4thWiseMan :
March 15th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
@Zulu_baby:
Yeah, but you had to see the calibre of the NZ/Canes supporters. The bottom of the gene pool barrel at best
Speaks volumes about the locals who *choose* to support Kiwi teams…
The Highlanders supporter I watched the game with on Saturday was positively revolting. Filthy mouth and sh*tfaced drunk.
16 Mar 2010, 07:49 am
The Sharks were the province which embraced the modern era best. Whilst the traditionalists sat back with blinkers on, content with the status quo, it was the Sharks who changed their name and attitude to fit in with the big changes that were about to happen.
First to introduce a modern game of multi phase rugby through Ian Mac they were revolutionary in their approach. Loads of what we see today was introduced by the Sharks. Small examples like the cheerleaders. Nobody had them until the Sharks bought their flashers out. Quirks like the remote controlled car bringing on the kicking tee etc. WP and Noord Transvaal were so slow to adapt. And their results mirrored this conservative approach.
So I take great umbridge with Keo hacking into the Sharks when they were a team that dominated the 90’s. But it was a sensational article filled with piss and wind so I have already taken the bait no doubt. Great journalism then, ey. I am also a bit late on this response so fek it.
16 Mar 2010, 14:23 pm
@Predawn: @414
those supporters are everywhere, dont tell me Loftus isnt overflowing with them. Its a generational thing, not a national thing, and can be very selective. I recently visited Lancastr Park for 1st time in 20years and the crowd behaviour was impeccable to a man.
Piet van Zyl anyone ?
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