Super 14 preview: Round 6
18 Mar 2010
Jon Cardinelli and Ryan Vrede analyse the key match-ups and pick the winners at the weekend.
Six from six is cause for celebration, but surely most of you readers would have made the same calls ahead of round five. This week witnesses some spicier match-ups with a couple of teams needing wins at the end of their respective tours.
The Sharks are still searching for a win, and according to Vrede, the search will continue following yet another disappointment at the House of Pain. JC feels the Highlanders will succumb to the Sharks, but there’s an agreement concerning the fate of the Lions in Christchurch.
The Hurricanes will finish their South African tour with a defeat at Loftus as the Bulls extend their lead at the top of the log (with a game in hand to boot). The Stormers will stay in the top four with a convincing win over the Cheetahs while the Brumbies will inflict more woe on the Blues in Auckland.
KEO.CO.ZA SUCCESS RATE
Vrede: 25/33 (76%)
JC: 24/33 (73%)
Round 5
Vrede: 6/6
JC: 6/6
Round 4
Vrede: 4/6
JC: 4/6
Round 3
Vrede: 4/7
JC: 4/7
Round 2
Vrede: 6/7
JC: 5/7
Round 1
Vrede: 5/7
JC: 5/7
BLUES vs BRUMBIES, AUCKLAND, FRIDAY, 08:35
VREDE’S CALL: Once a fortress, Eden Park has lost it’s aura and a highly efficient Brumbies side will ensure Keven Mealamu’s 100th Super Rugby appearance isn’t a memorable one. The Canberra franchise wasn’t at their best against the Sharks last week, but they’ll be superior in the facets of play that matter in Auckland – the collisions on attack and defence. Expect them to stifle the Blues’ attacking flow by ensuring a slow recycle, thereby nullifying their dangerous outside backs. They won’t feed them with attacking opportunities from broken field either, and will have the upper hand at the set phases. Brumbies by 7
JC’S CALL: The Brumbies are yet to produce a convincing performance, but ugly wins over strong opposition can’t be sneered at (read Stormers and Sharks, not Lions). They have the structure and forward might to unsettle the Blues, and the versatility out wide to adapt to a fast- or slow-paced game. The Aussies won’t play too loose, however, as this will bring the dangerous Blues backs into the equation. The Brumbies have shown an appreciation for territory in the initial rounds, and will have the better of the Blues in the kicking department. The Blues have a dangerous back three, but if Matt Giteau and company are accurate, Isaia Toeava, Joe Rokocoko and Rudi Wulf will be limited. Brumbies by 10
Blues – 15 Isaia Toeava, 14 Joe Rokocoko, 13 Rene Ranger, 12 Benson Stanley, 11 Rudi Wulf, 10 Stephen Brett, 9 Alby Mathewson, 8 Viliami Ma’afu, 7 Serge Lilo, 6 Jerome Kaino, 5 Anthony Boric, 4 Kurtis Haiu, 3 John Afoa, 2 Keven Mealamu (c), 1 Tony Woodcock.
Subs: 16 Tom McCartney, 17 Charlie Faumuina, 18 Filo Paulo, 19 Peter Saili, 20 Chris Smylie, 21 Daniel Kirkpatrick, 22 Paul Williams.
Brumbies – 15 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 14 Pat McCabe, 13 Tyrone Smith, 12 Christian Lealiifano, 11 Francis Fainifo, 10 Matt Giteau, 9 Josh Valentine, 8 Stephen Hoiles (C), 7 George Smith, 6 Rocky Elsom, 5 Mark Chisholm, 4 Ben Hand, 3 Salesi Maafu, 2 Stephen Moore, 1 Ben Alexander.
Subs: 16 Huia Edmonds, 17 Jerry Yanuyanutawa, 18 Justin Harrison, 19 Mitchell Chapman, 20 Patrick Phibbs, 21 Matt Toomua, 22 Andrew Smith.
BULLS vs HURRICANES, PRETORIA, FRIDAY 19:10
VREDE’S CALL: When you’re battling for a win in the Republic, Loftus is the last place you want to go. The Canes will become the Bulls’ 15th consecutive victim at home, and where Mealamu’s century will be a forgettable affair, Victor Matfield’s 100th will be celebrated with the intensity befitting a significant milestone. The Bulls will model their challenge on the formula that worked for the Stormers last week – a strong tackle fight marked by double hits – in an attempt to cut the supply of quick ball to their back division. The Bulls’ leaky defence has been a talking point, but expect them to remedy their failings in this regard. That improvement combined with the attacking prowess they’ve displayed will amplify their threat. Deon Stegmann’s return strengthens the Bulls and given their vast improvement at scrum time, there really isn’t any area the Canes can dominate. The loss of Cory Jane and the axing of Piri Weepu affects the level of experience in the Canes’ run-on side, and Loftus is not a place you want to take rookies to. Two years ago, the Canes whipped the Bulls 50-22 at Loftus. Do be surprised if there is a reverse of that magnitude on Friday. Bulls by 20
JC’S CALL: The Hurricanes’ All Blacks have enjoyed a good South African holiday to date, and I suspect the thought of a realistic return to the competition is still one week off. Saturday will witness a token effort from the Canes as they look to live with the Bulls physically, but fail to demonstrate the necessary control and direction needed to win big games. Ma’a Nonu is a good example of ‘domkrag’, but your backline players are likely to vent their frustrations when their attacking space is cut down. This Bulls’ defence needs to shape up, but their attack should take advantage of a frail Canes’ tackle line. The tourists’ poor discipline should also allow Morne Steyn to build a buffer between the two teams, and as seen in their previous four matches, four-try bonuses are the norm. Bulls by 12
Bulls – 15 Zane Kirchner; 14 Gerhard van der Heever, 13 Stephan Dippenaar, 12 Wynand Olivier, 11 Francois Hougaard; 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Fourie du Preez; 8 Pierre Spies, 7 Dewald Potgieter, 6 Deon Stegmann, 5 Victor Matfield (c), 4 Danie Rossouw, 3 Werner Kruger, 2 Gary Botha, 1 Gurthrö Steenkamp.
Subs: 16 Bandise Maku, 17 Bees Roux/Rossouw de Klerk, 18 Flip van der Merwe, 19 Derick Kuün, 20 Jacques-Louis Potgieter, 21 Jaco van der Westhuyzen, 22 Pedrie Wannenburg.
Hurricanes – 15 Andre Taylor, 14 Tamati Ellison, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Ma’a Nonu, 11 Alapati Leiua, 10 Willie Ripia, 9 Tyson Keats, 8 Rodney So’oialo, 7 Karl Lowe, 6 Victor Vito, 5 Michael Paterson, 4 Jeremy Thrush, 3 Neemia Tialata, 2 Andrew Hore (c), 1 John Schwalger.
Subs: 16 Dane Coles, 17 Jacob Ellison, 18 Bryn Evans, 19 Nick Crosswell, 20 Piri Weepu, 21 Aaron Cruden, 22 David Smith.
CRUSADERS vs LIONS, CHRISTCHURCH, SATURDAY 06:30
VREDE’S CALL: Dick Muir’s misguided minstrels have played horribly out of tune to date, and don’t expect them to make sweet music in Christchurch. The Crusaders feel it’s unnecessary to roll out their prized asset, Dan Carter (among others), for this match, and while they’ve offered rhetoric stressing this is no sign of disrespect, the implied message to the Lions is that they don’t register as a threat. And why should they be paid respect? Tactically they’re naive – the fault of their coaching staff – and the majority of their players are inept. The Saders will exploit these deficiencies, capitalising on their misplaced all-out-attack, and illuminate the inferiority of their opponents across all facets of play. Six from six for the lame Lions, I’m afraid. Crusaders by 15
JC’S CALL: There’s no point predicting a scoreline when a game features the most unpredictable team in the competition. The only given is the Lions will lose and, to add further insult, against a Saders’ team sans Carter, Andy Ellis and Brad Thorn. Will the Lions’ scrum improve? Will they manage to keep the Saders to less than four tries? Will Earl Rose manage to inspire the quickly inspired with a one dimensional sidestep? Can they get worse than a 70-point defeat? Who knows how it will transpire when Muir’s circus comes to town? The only certainty is the result even though the hosts are missing some big names. Lions (to lose) by plenty
Crusaders – 15 Jared Payne, 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Adam Whitelock, 12 Ryan Crotty, 11 Zac Guildford, 10 Colin Slade, 9 Kahn Fotuali’i, 8 Thomas Waldrom, 7 Jonathan Poff, 6 Richie McCaw (c), 5 Isaac Ross, 4 Sam Whitelock, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Ti’i Paulo, 1 Ben Franks.
Subs: 16 Corey Flynn, 17 Wyatt Crockett, 18 Chris Jack, 19 George Whitelock, 20 Willi Heinz, 21 Dan Carter, 22 Robbie Fruean.
Lions – 15 Earl Rose, 14 Wigan Pekeur, 13 Walter Venter, 12 Doppies la Grange, 11 Wandile Mjekevu, 10 Burton Francis, 9 Jano Vermaak, 8 Todd Clever, 7 Derick Minnie, 6 Cobus Grobbelaar (c), 5 Franco van der Merwe, 4 George Earle, 3 Ross Geldenhuys, 2 Hannes Franklin, 1 JC Janse van Rensburg.
Subs: 16 Charles Emslie, 17 Heinke van der Merwe, 18 Willem Stoltz, 19 Robert Kruger/Jacques Lombaard, 20 Jacques Coetzee, 21 Carlos Spencer, 22 Michael Killian.
HIGHLANDERS vs SHARKS, DUNEDIN, SATURDAY 08:35
VREDE’S CALL: If coach John Plumtree hadn’t tinkered with the side that lost narrowly to the Brumbies, I would have called a Sharks win. But given that he has made five changes, one of those being the axing of captain John Smit, I’m inclined to think the Landers will sneak this one. In testing times, it seems absurd to rotate when your side is showing signs of improvement. That Plumtree has axed the world’s most experienced Test captain is equally perplexing. The hosts are strengthened by the return of Jimmy Cowan; while Adam Thomson and Michael Hobbs have stayed out of trouble long enough to be selected (rumour has it their axing last week owed to their stumbling out of a Cape Town ‘club’ frequented mostly by lycra-clad eastern European ladies at 3am). The trio’s return, combined with the galvanising effect of returning home after a torturous tour, and the fact that the Sharks players have one foot on the plane back to SA, will contribute to the hosts taking the points. Technically there’s little to choose between the sides, although the Sharks should have the ascendancy at lineout time. That won’t be enough, and they’ll go down. Highlanders by 5
JC’S CALL: Finally, something we can disagree on. The Sharks are battling for results, but there’s no way they’ve sunk to the point where the bottom-feeding Highlanders, who are returning from a South African tour, are favourites to win. The Landers regain Cowan, Thomson and Hobbs, and have handed domestic performer Robbie Robinson a start, but still have problems in their pack. Jason Rutledge’s wayward lineout feeds cost the Landers dearly in their 33-0 loss to the Stormers while the pack as a unit has lacked synergy. It’s something the Sharks are still searching for, but you feel they’re closer to coming right than the worst franchise in New Zealand. He may look like an unassuming butler, but Andy Goode can punish transgressions with accurate goal kicks from his own half. The Sharks will look to his boot to guide them to their first win of 2010. Sharks by 5
Highlanders – 15 Israel Dagg, 14 Ben Smith, 13 Kenny Lynn, 12 Michael Hobbs, 11 James Paterson, 10 Robbie Robinson, 9 Jimmy Cowan, 8 Adam Thomson, 7 Alando Soakai, 6 John Hardie, 5 Hayden Triggs, 4 Josh Bekhuis, 3 Clint Newland, 2 Jason Rutledge, 1 Jamie Mackintosh.
Subs: 16 Jason Macdonald, 17 Chris King, 18 Joe Tuineau, 19 Tim Boys/Steven Setephano, 20 Sean Romans, 21 Jayden Hayward, 22 Fetu’u Vainikolo
Sharks – 15. Patrick Lambie, 14. Stefan Terblanche, 13. Adrian Jacobs, 12 Riaan Swanepoel, 11. JP Pietersen, 10. Andy Goode, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8. Ryan Kankowski, 7. Jean Deysel, 6. Keegan Daniel, 5. Johann Muller (c), 4. Steven Sykes, 3. Jannie du Plessis, 2 Bismarck du Plessis, 1 Beast Mtawarira.
Subs: 16 Craig Burden, 17 John Smit, 18 Alistair Hargreaves, 19 Willem Alberts, 20 Jacques Botes, 21 Rory Kockott, 22 Waylon Murray.
FORCE vs WARATAHS, PERTH, SATURDAY, 13:10
VREDE’S CALL: The Perth franchise’s slide will continue against the Tahs, who are fresh off their demolition of the Lions. The injury-ravaged Force won’t be as easy a beat as those lame Lions, but they don’t have the quality to compete with a well drilled Tahs side. The hosts will be competitive at the lineouts against the Tahs’ rookie second rowers, but that’s where parity will cease. Tahs by 12
JC’S CALL: The Tahs bagged the bonus in the Lions blowout, and will be disappointed not to pick up at least four tries against the flailing Force. Chris Hickey has decided to rest several players but a core of quality will ensure the necessary is done. Tatafu Polota-Nau will earn valuable metres for his side while Phil Waugh should have the run of the breakdown. The Force defence is in disarray, and once their frontline is breached, the dangerous Tahs outside runners will turn pressure into points. Tahs by 15
Western Force - 15 Dane Haylett-Petty, 14 Scott Staniforth, 13 Ryan Cross, 12 James O’Connor, 11 Nick Cummins, 10 David Hill, 9 Brett Sheehan, 8 Richard Stanford, 7 Matt Hodgson, 6 Ben McCalman, 5 Nathan Sharpe (c), 4 Sam Wykes, 3 Tim Fairbrother, 2 Ryan Tyrrell, 1 Nic Henderson.
Subs: 16 Ben Whittaker, 17 Kieran Longbottom, 18 Tom Hockings, 19 Luke Jones, 20 Chris O’Young, 21 Sam Harris, 22 Mitch Inman.
Waratahs – 15 Sosene Anesi, 14 Lachie Turner, 13 Tom Carter, 12 Berrick Barnes, 11 Drew Mitchell, 10 Daniel Halangahu, 9 Luke Burgess, 8 Ben Mowen, 7 Phil Waugh (c), 6 Dave Dennis, 5 Kane Douglas, 4 Dean Mumm, 3 Sekope Kepu, 2 Tatafu Polota-Nau, 1 Benn Robinson.
Subs: 16 Damien Fitzpatrick, 17 Dan Palmer, 18 Will Caldwell, 19 Locky McCaffrey, 20 Josh Holmes, 21 Kurtley Beale, 22 Rob Horne.
STORMERS vs CHEETAHS, CAPE TOWN, SATURDAY, 17:05
VREDE’S CALL: The Stormers have established a winning formula that has punishing defence as its cornerstone. In doing so, they have made themselves very difficult to beat, and that solidity combined with fluency on attack should see them triumph over the Cheetahs, who are the tournament’s third-lowest try scorers. It’ll be an almighty battle at the collisions, with both sides seeking to quell the other’s attacking threat by ensuring slow ruck ball. The Stormers will edge the set phases. Furthermore, the pressure they exerted on the Canes’ receivers through determined kick chases last week forced the New Zealanders into errors, and they will no doubt look to employ similar tactics against the Cheetahs, who are seldom able to resist the chance of running the ball back. Stormers by 15
JC’S CALL: What happens when attack meets defence? The question needs to be rephrased with the first team referring to the Cheetahs and the second to the Stormers: What happens when average attack meets awesome defence? On the flipside, the Stormers’ attack has improved immensely and will be favourites to breach the Cheetahs’ unreliable defence. The hosts should have enough clean ball to build the pressure considering their form at the lineout and breakdown, and even if the Cheetahs do manage to apply the squeeze at scrum time, their backline won’t have sufficient space to make the opportunities count. The Stormers have developed a knack of burying teams when they’re on the rack, so if the hosts go to an early lead, that pressure won’t relent in the second period. Naas Olivier doesn’t like kicking in the swirling cauldron that is Newlands, and the Stormer-turned-Cheetah won’t be a factor in Saturday’s fixture. Stormers by 10
Stormers – 15 Joe Pietersen, 14 Gio Aplon, 13 Jaque Fourie, 12 Tim Whitehead, 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Peter Grant, 9 Dewaldt Duvenage, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Francois Louw, 6 Schalk Burger (c), 5 Andries Bekker, 4 Anton van Zyl, 3 Brok Harris, 2 Tiaan Liebenberg, 1 Wicus Blaauw.
Subs: 16 Deon Fourie, 17 JC Kritzinger, 18 De Kock Steenkamp, 19 Pieter Louw, 20 Ricky Januarie, 21 Willem de Waal, 22 Sireli Naqelevuki.
Cheetahs – 15 Hennie Daniller, 14 Lionel Mapoe, 13 Robert Ebersohn, 12 Meyer Bosman, 11 Jongi Nokwe, 10 Naas Olivier, 9 Sarel Pretorius, 8 Frans Viljoen, 7 Juan Smith (c), 6 Hendro Scholtz, 5 Waltie Vermeulen, 4 Nico Breedt, 3 WP Nel, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Wian du Preez.
Subs: 16 Ryno Barnes, 17 Coenie Oosthuizen, 18 Barend Pieterse, 19 Kabamba Floors, 20 Tewis de Bruyn, 21 Corne Uys, 22 Danwel Demas.
219 Comments
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19 Mar 2010, 11:59 am
Cape judge sued over attack on business family
By Fatima Schroeder
Cape Town – A SENIOR Cape High Court judge has allegedly accused the shareholder family of asset management company Oasis Group Holdings of being “a bunch of thugs”, “scum” and “********”.
Judge Siraj Desai allegedly made the comments to one of the group’s main shareholders, Nazeem Ebrahim, in November, 2001, in response to a proposed development by the group in University Estate, where the judge lives.
The remarks were allegedly made days before a meeting of University Estate residents to discuss a proposed office development in the area for Oasis, which operates parts of its business in accordance with Shariah (Muslim law).
There, the judge allegedly accused the group of fraud and of intimidating residents into signing a document in support of the development.
The group sued him for defamation in the Cape High Court, claiming he had accused them of conducting dishonest business and made statements “calculated to harm the (company) in its business reputation”.
Oasis said should the case go to court, and the court find in the group’s favour, Desai would not have to pay the R250 000 damages claimed if he publishes full-page adverts in three Cape newspapers “in a form acceptable to the (company) within 10 days”.
Desai has admitted in papers that he made the statements but said that it had come to his attention prior to the meeting that a document revealing the views of residents only recorded those who supported the development and not those opposed to it.
This he described as “misleading”.
He also said residents were intimidated into signing the document.
He denied making the statements recklessly or negligently.
In addition, Desai claimed the statements were not made unlawfully, relying on the protection afforded to him in the section of the Constitution dealing with freedom of expression.
But the Oasis Group said the defamatory statements were “not germane to the duty relied upon by (Judge Desai) and the concomitant interest of those attending the meeting”.
The group alleged the judge had deliberately made the statements to attack the group.
It said days before the meeting, Ebrahim had encountered Desai in University Estate.
At the time, the judge had voiced his opposition to the proposed development in “an aggressive and hostile manner”.
He allegedly accused the Ebrahim family – the main shareholders in Oasis – of being “a bunch of thugs”, “scum”, and “********”.
19 Mar 2010, 12:07 pm
Some class from the Bulls sponsors.
19 Mar 2010, 12:07 pm
@Luke_Twatson: and your point is? isn’t that old news?
19 Mar 2010, 12:28 pm
Wooden Spoon
I see you’ve recently spent some time in Godzone. Having just returned from 3 wks there myself, I know that you lucked out bigtime with the weather. Prob not an issue with yr ave Safa, but Kiwis appreciate a good Summer when they have one , and Jan/Feb was driest ever apparently. I got fried over on Waiheke, what a gem of a spot, native bush/birds, streams and gorgeous beaches with no highrises. Bliss, and the food culture is superb too, I was dining heavily on all seafood but partic on Bluff Oysters which had just come in to season, the Worlds best no doubt.
Did you go anywhere or eat anything in partic that will stay in the memory ? Maybe the Coromandel or Hokianga or Waikaremoana or Wanaka or Akaroa ?
Despite the overtly-righteous diatribe earlier from Tacitus, if what he was trying to say is the Aotearoa is a young country then I would go along with that. It is still finding itself in many ways and with the last decade of immigration that maturing will take generations yet. Personally I found the increased cosmopolitan vibe of Auckland refreshing and exciting on the whole. More interesting now. It is also had it’s scary moments when parking in Sky City and walking thru the Casino level at 11:30am on a Wednes and seeing the tables PACKED, 90% of whom were Chinese, and often 3 generations gambling together. That’s not really a ‘culture’ I would happily impor. Each to their own I
Suppose but betting is for fools. Asians have otherwise been welcome like the 1000′s Safas and Brits but we were also thrilled to meet young Sth Americans, French, Spanish , Skandis etc, really cool. Down in the Sth Island it is less so and also where I would recommend Tacticus to consider given it’s whiter more conservative society. Also more boring in many ways ( with an admittedly stunning backdrop !). I found Chch more bogan than ever and yet the locals are happy, the sections are big enough for a pool and the mountains are less than an hour away. They just happen to have the Worlds best ever footy team in town, that’s all. Damn them.
19 Mar 2010, 12:53 pm
@Johan Fourie: Clever… but if I decided to become a Bull I would have had to change my name to: “Drool….D’uh, I’m a Blue Bull!”. No thanks….
19 Mar 2010, 12:54 pm
@Black Panther: 137 I didn’t make any sheep jokes, I was telling Pops to ignore the sheep jokes, it’s not that serious. But I see he has responded with some necro jokes
19 Mar 2010, 12:55 pm
@Black Panther:
Chch??
Would they like to buy a vowel?
19 Mar 2010, 12:58 pm
Best thing to come out of New Zealand… FLIGHT OF THE CONCHORDS!
19 Mar 2010, 12:59 pm
@4thWiseMan:
Its fair to say that theirs are more rounded than anywhere else in NZ. Its a “1st Boat’er” thing.
19 Mar 2010, 13:00 pm
@4thWiseMan: @208
its business time
19 Mar 2010, 13:03 pm
@Black Panther:
Goodbye, leggy blonde!
19 Mar 2010, 13:05 pm
misguided minstrels indeed.
unguided missiles perhaps?
girl guides?
19 Mar 2010, 13:08 pm
@roobarb2:
did you know that Girl Guide biscuits now come in mini choco-dipped sizes ?
19 Mar 2010, 13:44 pm
@Black Panther: Sheesh 4 and no breakfast….bouncing off the walls here!
19 Mar 2010, 13:52 pm
@Atreides:
I recommend Acai berry juice.
Makes you bounce off the walls in an anti-oxident high kinda way, and I find my wife loves it too (cue stupid winky teachers stamp).
Cant beat that 1st flat white of the day tho. I wish there were more decent coffee houses in UK tho, even petrol stations in NZ have better espresso fixes than 90% of places here.
19 Mar 2010, 14:35 pm
@Black Panther: My brother’s a coffee junkie, the thing he hated most about the UK was the warm dish water they pass off as coffee
I’ll look the Acai up, thanks! Have you tried Maca powder? wawaweewa is all I can say!!!
19 Mar 2010, 14:54 pm
@Atreides:
havent heard of Maca, some Safa magic potion made out of rhino dung no doubt ?
The big news here in UK this week is ‘Meow Meow’. It has been used as a garden fertiliser before now, until the kids found out you could also grow euphoria out of it too if you fertilised your nose with it. 2 teenagers died doing exactly that. Im no diagnostic analyst but I believe it is derived from Khat, which is something I understand the witchdoctors down your way like to chew on between prophecies ?
19 Mar 2010, 15:58 pm
@Black Panther: Lol no, Maca’s a root powder of South Amrican origin…tastes a lttle odd (this is a severe understatement, took me 2 days to get a whole glass down my neck!) but it feels like someones injected rocketfuel into you – apparently not everyone has the same response but it worked for me. Apparently really good for you, and also helps the old libido along (nudge nudge wink wink)
19 Mar 2010, 16:58 pm
@Atreides:
gives the phrase “I feel like a Maca attack” whole new meaning !
Its bizarre hearing about these new ‘tonics’. Easy to assume we’ve already squeezed the profits out of everything this planet has ever produced and then *hey presto* along comes another one.
Only to be told, “oh yeah, the Aztecs used that one prior to football matches”.
This stuff, Meow Meow, was literally freely avail off the shelves and marketed as ‘house plant food’. Then you see photos of it and its looks identical to charlie. WTF ?!
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