‘Not filling 15 may bite Boks’
30 Jun 2010
Without Frans Steyn and Fourie du Preez, the Springboks have lost key components to their Tri-Nations title defence.
Peter de Villiers explained Steyn’s omission from the 28-man squad due to the Racing Metro-based back being off pace and that the standard of European club competitions wasn’t as fast as Super Rugby, but still picked three players (BJ Botha, CJ van der Linde and Butch James) who played there last season.
The June Tests also haven’t been used well in trying to find the scrumhalf and fullback’s respective replacements. Steyn started against Wales but since, Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon and even Ruan Pienaar have run at 15, showing the confusion over the position.
Steyn was also the difference the last time the Boks met the All Blacks, his three long-range penalties a feat no other player in the world can achieve.
Eddie Jones says it’s no coincidence that the six Tests that Steyn started at fullback last year, the Boks won.
‘Frans is one of the most gifted players in the world, and to leave him out when he’s available, you must think you’re going pretty well,’ Jones told keo.co.za.
‘At fullback, he’s a big guy who can kick the ball as long as anyone, is reasonably safe under the high ball and he has something about him. Kirchner still hasn’t proved that he’s a Test player although he’s played very well in the Super 14, and he tends to have that habit of making two or three iffy mistakes a game. Aplon is a very good little player but he’s probably a better winger than fullback at Test level.
‘There’s a potential hole there that they haven’t filled and not picking Steyn may come back and bite them. He also kicks goals regularly from over 50m.’
The loss of Du Preez is not by choice, but his exclusion due to injury will hurt the Boks even more. Even though the law interpretations have changed since last year’s competition, Du Preez’s boot, brain and all-round brilliance will be missed.
‘They’ll be massive losses,’ Jones said of Steyn and Du Preez. ‘South Africa haven’t faced good enough quality opposition to realise how much they’re gonna miss them, particularly Fourie.
‘One of the things that stood out in the Super 14 was that the Bulls were the best attacking team in the competition – they scored the most tries per game – but having said that, they were also the side that kicked the most. It’s a simplistic way of looking at it but it’s quite true: their kicking was so accurate, it gave them field position to score tries.
‘The architect of most of those kicks was undoubtedly Fourie and to not have him playing for South Africa when games get tight, with long kicks or high kicks that are contestable, they’re really going to feel it. The other part of Fourie is that his tactical nous is second to none in the world and they’ve lost huge intellectual capital, which again will hard to replace in big Tests.’
Finding Du Preez’s replacement during June also hasn’t been executed well, with Ricky Januarie seemingly having a monopoly on the No 9 jersey. De Villiers gave Pienaar just 16 minutes throughout four Tests in his favoured position of scrumhalf, with Januarie playing 304 out of a possible 320.
‘Ruan’s shown his hand by signing for Ulster that his confidence has been dented, there’s no doubt about that. If he was confident about where he was, he wouldn’t go to Ulster because he’s a proud South African who wants to play for the Boks,’ said Jones.
Jones still rates Pienaar as a flyhalf, but the player has shown his desire to play scrumhalf and Jones says he must only be played in one position by his coaches.
‘It’s interesting to look at his performances at flyhalf, he was good there in the first Test against the Lions. He missed some kicks but still played reasonably well in the second – people tend to forget that. Every time he’s played at 10 for South Africa he’s played well,’ he said, including the Boks’ opening Tri-Nations fixture against the All Blacks in Bloemfontein.
‘He’s past the stage where he’s a young kid and he really needs to become a specialist. You find guys who are shifted around, as they get older, they tend to become bits and pieces players. The only thing they’re good for is limited overs cricket or 20/20, but not for Tests anymore.
‘He’s a tough and talented kid who plays hard for his country, but he needs to find his position.’
By Grant Ball
380 Comments
30 Jun 2010, 08:47 am
no surprise there. need both….but i’m not too concerned about the ’10 tri-nations. we need them both fit for the WC!
30 Jun 2010, 08:47 am
Missing Dragons!
30 Jun 2010, 08:47 am
30 Jun 2010, 08:50 am
Ball.co.za, have you watch rugga this past year?
Zane Kirchner or Gio Aplon will play 15!
30 Jun 2010, 08:51 am
I see whenever the “journalists” on this site need backup for their article..
they quote Eddie Jones..
sad.
30 Jun 2010, 08:54 am
Frans Steyn, Wynand Olivier, Pierre Spies and Jaque Fourie…..
These are the keo glory boys. No matter what time of year, injured or off form they wil get punted on here, SA rugby mag and Sport Illistrated.
Wonder who their agents are? Wonder if they all connected with the so-called journos on this site.
30 Jun 2010, 08:58 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-5: true, pisses me the f.ck off, because eddie jones is the same one that said the Boks will struggle against france and all soort of other bullsh.t.
30 Jun 2010, 08:58 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-6: Jaque Fourie is no glory boy!
30 Jun 2010, 09:01 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-7: I know, people forget that very quickly… Eddie is always looking out for…
wait for it
Eddie
30 Jun 2010, 09:01 am
@Return of the Black Hooker(Falken)-8: forgot… he is the self-proclaimed world’s best 13!
30 Jun 2010, 09:02 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-6: the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Januarie slams critics
This entry was posted on Tuesday, July 24th, 2007 at 6:19 am
Ricky Januarie says constant comparisons between himself and Ruan Pienaar are ridiculous.
Januarie will travel to the World Cup as the official back-up to Fourie du Preez, but there continue to be questions around whether he is a better option off the bench than Pienaar.
The Sharks man had an outstanding season, playing a key role in their march to the Super 14 final. While his performances in the Tri-Nations proved that he remains a raw talent in need of polishing, they were still impressive.
Januarie conversely had a trying season at the Lions, surrendering the No 9 shirt to Jano Vermaak then failing to impress in the incoming tour matches against England and Samoa before injury ruled him out of the Tri-Nations.
He has however grown tired of the incessant criticism, and stressed that coach Jake White’s opinion is the only one that really matters to him.
“I used to be affected by the talk but I just ignore it now,” he told keo.co.za. “I don’t read the papers or watch rugby shows on TV anymore because that’s all you seem to read or hear: ‘Ruan’s better than Ricky’. It’s ridiculous.
“Everybody has something to say but Jake knows my ability, we’ve worked together since age group rugby, and he is the only person who I need to impress.”
The primary point of criticism is that Pienaar’s kicking game is far superior to Januarie’s, something that takes on added importance in northern hemisphere conditions that are expected to suit game plans which include probing box kicks.
In addition, Pienaar’s ability off the boot eased the pressure on flyhalf Butch James in the Tri-Nations and will do so again in France should they be paired as the half-back combination for whatever reason.
Januarie concedes that Pienaar’s ability off the boot trumps his, but insists that his success has never laid in the ability to put boot to ball.
“Jake has defined my role in the side and that takes into account my strengths,” Januarie said. “Defensively he expects me to be putting pressure on the opposition scrumhalf and flyhalf, while on attack he prefers me to keep ball in hand and make breaks around the ruck and maul fringe.
“I play the game Jake asks me to and that has brought success for me in the past. I’m not going to try and be something I’m not just to please some people.”
But Januarie is not content to sit back and play second fiddle to Du Preez. He is determined to push the Bulls man for a starting berth at the World Cup.
“I wouldn’t be playing if I didn’t want to start. I want to be the first-choice scrumhalf and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with me saying that,” he explained.
“It’s my job to keep Fourie sharp, competition is healthy.”
By Ryan Vrede
This entry was posted on Tuesday, July 24th, 2007 at 6:19 am and is filed under Rugby World Cup, Springboks. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.
30 Jun 2010, 09:03 am
@Return of the Black Hooker(Falken)-8: I think he is an amazing defensive player. Up there with the best in the world.
On attack he is more limited and never gets his wingers away.
Having said that I would rather have him in my team and I’m glad he plays for the Boks.
My gripe id with the journos who always cry foul for their favourites. and Jaque is one of them
30 Jun 2010, 09:03 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-5:
Hahaha
Spot on bru!!
30 Jun 2010, 09:03 am
Must say i kinda rate Eddie.
30 Jun 2010, 09:05 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-11: your honor, I pack my case
30 Jun 2010, 09:07 am
The absence of FdP will be interesting for the development of Morne Steyn, because Morne will be making more of the tactical decisions and really directing the play. I think this is a big positive as he has aptitude and temperament and he’ll move his game on to the next level because of this.
I’m not too happy about our fullback position.
30 Jun 2010, 09:09 am
my views….
Brussows great scavenging will be sorely missed….he murdered the kiwis and aussies last year.
also the absence of bissy will be a disaster for boks, his workrate and physicality at the breakdown and pace about the park will not be adequately filled by plod.
The omission of F Steyn is mind blowing, there must be some sort of blood in the water, any coach on the planet would not walk away from Steyn and that match winning boot. The other 15 s dont come close to what F Steyn brings to the party.
Boks have lost a lot of mongril in Bissy and Juan Smith….Flo is a great prospect, and Smit a gtreat captain, vut i will need to be convinced that we can be as effective as last year.
The only positive is that we should now hold our own at scrum time, and thats a relief. But goodness gracious we aregoing to bleed with without ,brussow,bissy and F Steyn.Add to that the tactical know how of FDP…..i dont see boks as favorites for tri nations.
30 Jun 2010, 09:09 am
If we can get through this year successfully without those two players and then include them next year in the WC we will be able to vary our play nicely. With just one recognised kicker in the in the backline PDV is going to have to come up with a new strategy. Keep it close in our own half through multiphase play and then spread it in opposition’s half. The driving maul will also be a key weapon in the Boks arsenal. We have very good ball carriers to be able to implement this game plan.
30 Jun 2010, 09:12 am
we’ll be fine. i like aplon. give him a chance at fullback and leave ricky at 9. he loves irritating the **** out of any flyhalf.
30 Jun 2010, 09:13 am
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck)-19: especially the all blacks
30 Jun 2010, 09:13 am
@grant10(grant10)-17: I’m with you on this.
Steyn, Bissie, Brussow and the best player on the planet will be missed!
30 Jun 2010, 09:14 am
@Return of the Black Hooker(Falken)-8:you’re right, mossie is a glory taker, hardly ever passes. Habana screamed in vain in one game @ RWC ’07 but mossie didn’t pass for sh.t…habana could’ve broken lomu’s record.
30 Jun 2010, 09:15 am
I have yet to see Zane do anything that dramatic that shows that he isnt test quality, he’s not flashy but he’s pretty solid at the back, he comes into the line nicely on attack and is pretty good on defence, Frans Steyn would be my first choice but i dont see Zane letting you down too often at 15
30 Jun 2010, 09:18 am
Ag this is so ******* tired…
Steyn this and Steyn that blah blah blah…
NZ from where I sit needs Carl Hayman desperately but Carl made his decision to play in Europe and I am yet to read the amount of articles from the NZ media on the absolute injustice Henry is doing the All Black brand and Hayman…
The closest player we have to being indespensible is Fourie du Preez but even he is not completely indepsensible.
By the sounds of all this kak it sounds like the future of Bok rugby is dependent on Fransie…
FFS people.
I too would have loved Fransie part of Bok rugby, but he made his decision and Peter has made his.
End of.
30 Jun 2010, 09:19 am
Boks areas of concern to me:
Very average fullback.
Very average right wing.
Very very average 9.
No dominating tighthead.
Also ran hooker.
No seriaaaaas ball carrier and defender – Juan.
And the loss of Brussow….. eish… ons gaan dit voel.
I don’t mind to be wrong…
but that’s where i am worried about!
30 Jun 2010, 09:20 am
still
vetgat
is not
the no 2
scrumhalf
in sa
a bloody
travesty
so this
article
is about
boolsheet
30 Jun 2010, 09:20 am
I really don’t understand the fascination with Francois Steyn.
30 Jun 2010, 09:21 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-24: you should know the MO by now. Why do you sound suprised?
30 Jun 2010, 09:21 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-20: especially the all blacks. he always plays well against them for some reason.
30 Jun 2010, 09:22 am
I am currently counting my blessings having Juan, Bismarck, Fourie, Brussow, JPP and Steyn not in the team currently.
Apart from getting a well earned break 1 year out from the World Cup we are forced to look for capable alternatives and for most part most of them are stepping up nicely.
A lot can change in a year, and I expect all those guys mentioned back before the World Cup hungry, rested and firing with back up players closing in on 15 tests or more when the World Cup starts.
30 Jun 2010, 09:22 am
@Staal(Staal)-25: ja…..similar concerns for me….
but at least we have a tighthead ….perhaps not a destructive 3 ….but at least a REAL 3 ……
Thank the merciful angels.
Pity it has cost us a dynamic 2 though.
30 Jun 2010, 09:23 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-24:
snortor
is not
consistent
in his
decisions
he must
then
learn
what
that word
principle
means
30 Jun 2010, 09:23 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-30: hallelujah to that…
30 Jun 2010, 09:23 am
@st.a.t.w(st.a.t.w)-27:
Its all about the hair dude, the hair!!
30 Jun 2010, 09:24 am
@st.a.t.w(st.a.t.w)-27: really?
60 m penalties and drop goals not ring a bell?
30 Jun 2010, 09:25 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-24:
It is f-ing cold here, my spelling and hitting keys are up to ****…
30 Jun 2010, 09:25 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-30: Exactly! And a few might have trouble getting back in.
30 Jun 2010, 09:28 am
we will be fine. we won the tri-nations last year because the all blacks could not catch high balls and we tackled like deamons. i’m sure we can repeat this again.
30 Jun 2010, 09:31 am
@grant10(grant10)-35: his penalty kicks are special… his drop goals are more miss than hit.
having said that; with our ever improving mall from lineouts i am not too worried about 60 meter penalties. we can kick to the corner and setup the mall that was successful for the Stormers and bulls
30 Jun 2010, 09:33 am
why is juan not playing? family commitments or is he injured?
30 Jun 2010, 09:33 am
60 meter kicks…
What the hell.
The Bulls and Stormers smacked the best NZ had on offer with guys (Grant and Joe) that can hardly slot 40 meter kicks…
30 Jun 2010, 09:33 am
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck)-40:
Family responsibility.
30 Jun 2010, 09:34 am
@grant10(grant10)-35:
honestlty i could care less, besides kicking the odd 60m penalty and landing 1 drop goal every third or fourth game he offers nothing else and please don’t tell me how big and strong he is
long story short he should’nt even be considerd same goes for the other players who decided to go after the money
30 Jun 2010, 09:35 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-41:
who played
for
the bulls
grant
or joe
30 Jun 2010, 09:35 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-24: any player that is not a regular on the front cover of SA Rugby magazine gets hatchet job articles against them. I don’t get what bubble these so-called journalists live in.
They write that pdv must kick his foreign policy on selection to touch, he does it & selects the players he thinks are properly conditioned, now they bemoan the fact that he has selected some and not ALL their favourites!!
30 Jun 2010, 09:37 am
ps. with jdv, jf and habana in the backline our defensive lines will hold firm.
30 Jun 2010, 09:39 am
we need earl rose at fullback against the all blacks. coax them into a kicking game rather than running it at us
30 Jun 2010, 09:39 am
gotta love saffas…..amazing okes.
F Steyn won us the tri nations with not 1, not 2 …but 3 monster penalties in the wet , at sea level , in kiwiland.
Memories are short, now we simply going to maul over the kiwis….no need to take the 3 pointers on offer?
LOL
Lets see how it goes.
outta here
30 Jun 2010, 09:41 am
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-44:
I am struggling to remember any 60 meter penalties by Steyn in NZ.
But by all means, help me out.
30 Jun 2010, 09:41 am
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck)-46: agreed. i am worried about our attakcing flair. We seem to coach it out of our rugby. our players hardly make instinctive breaks based on the opportunity available. They are content to play out the planned move and go to the next phase.
hopefully we will get it right one day. Thats way Div rates Ruan at 10. he is that type of player.
30 Jun 2010, 09:43 am
@grant10(grant10)-48: there you go being emotional again.
i said it gives us an opportunity to exploit the mall which we are looking quite organised at. We are awesome at lineouts, could this idea be so inconceivable?
30 Jun 2010, 09:44 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-49:
that
was not
the question
but
i do
remember
a long one
that
clinched
a bil
series
so who
played
for the
bulls
grant
or joe
30 Jun 2010, 09:48 am
@grant10(grant10)-48: Gotta love Grant10, Francois Steyn contributes 15 points to the entire tri-nations and yet HE is deemed to have WON us the tri-nations.
Never mind Morne who contributed 95 points.
30 Jun 2010, 09:50 am
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated)-53: he won us the test in Hamilton with 3 x kicks that most could only dream of.
Brussow was my man of the series….
30 Jun 2010, 09:50 am
@grant10(grant10)-48: also, dont twist the facts. Frans did not win us the Tri-nations. We won 5 out of 6 games. Frans kicked monster penalties in one game.
Care to mention his awesome feats in the other 5 games.
He is one of those special players with amazing skill. Problem is he is always trying to prove this IMO. thats why he is as inconsistent as he is. We have to expect the good with the bad.
Should i remind you of the Babaas game he played at 10 and the S14 he could have won for the Sharks (not once but twice)
He is a mixed bag. Not the saviour you guys are making him out to be.
30 Jun 2010, 09:51 am
@grant10(grant10)-54: and m steyn walked on water in that series as well.
30 Jun 2010, 09:52 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-51: You raise a valid point. I would like to see the how likely we are to score points from an attacking lineout in the opposition 22. Remembering the conversion rate of 60m goals is about 50% – 60%.
30 Jun 2010, 09:53 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-50: yip, but it’s also a higher risk type game. the boks play low risk rugby….hence the kicking game.
30 Jun 2010, 09:54 am
I think F Steyn is a talented player, but whenever he has the ball he tries to do too much with it, often to the detriment of the team… with more experience he may learn to take better options…
30 Jun 2010, 09:55 am
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck)-58: yes, but if we dont have “rocket launcher” in our team we have to take this option. Same option all other international teams take from 60 meters out. Not the end of the world IMO
30 Jun 2010, 09:55 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-55: stop being emotional.
F Steyn is , imo, a far better 15 than anything we have back here in SA….
And has won all games he has started at 15 for boks.
But lets wait and se….time will tell.
Just like plod at 3….i said from word go it would not last.
I called Brussow at 6 when most were still screaming for Schalk as an opensider.
And i am now saying the loss of F Steyn may prove our death knell in this tri series.
But, for me, the loss of brussow and bissy probably as big an issue.
got to go work, so enjoy the day.
outta here
30 Jun 2010, 09:56 am
@grant10(grant10)-54: Actually the only difference between the 2 sides in the end was a Morne Steyn drop-goal.
30 Jun 2010, 09:56 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-59: poppa, why are you coying my point of view. See post 55
30 Jun 2010, 09:58 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-63: because for a change I thought you had a valid point
lmao
30 Jun 2010, 09:59 am
@grant10(grant10)-61: You also said Frans Steyn should not play 15. And that Brok Harris was a good TH.
30 Jun 2010, 10:01 am
@grant10(grant10)-61: ok dude
i think Wayne Julies also almost never played in a losing bok side. Hope you see my point
Frans Steyn is not the be all and end all of Bok rugby. We will progress without him just like we had to after players like Nass, Andre Venter, etc.
I prefer he gets selected at 15. But our world will not end…
30 Jun 2010, 10:02 am
@grant10(grant10)-61: And that Jannie and Guthro were too useless to play international rugby, because they were weak scrummagers.
30 Jun 2010, 10:02 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-64: touche
30 Jun 2010, 10:04 am
@grant10(grant10)-61: But you are right about Frans, he’s talented, but not the be all and end all of SA rugby.
30 Jun 2010, 10:07 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-68:
dont worry, we have the same problem with McCaw and Carter, thus we dont develop able replacements and are then found wanting..
I still wish we never lost Evans!!
30 Jun 2010, 10:08 am
@grant10(grant10)-61: By the way, talking stats, Frans actually lost to England starting at 15, but never the less has a good record. BTW another man with a good record is JS, 2nd best win record of all boks starting at 3. Does that make him an awesome 3? Not in your book, then why quote Frans’s win ratio at 15?
30 Jun 2010, 10:08 am
7 years ago we would have given a testicle for this team.
be greatful.
30 Jun 2010, 10:12 am
@st.a.t.w(st.a.t.w)-43: This “Go for the money” BS you guys go on about is so hypocritical, if you were in his shoes in your own line of work with a nice wad of money flashed in front of you to jump to a new company, you telling me you would turn it down????? i think not, loyalty lies with whoever has the biggest wallet end of story.
30 Jun 2010, 10:14 am
@grant10(grant10)-61: my friend, you shouted for francois steyn to be Bok 10 and what happened?
What has francois done to compliment the faith peter showed in him last year? Nothing he has gone to racing to make his money and moan about how he doesn’t agree with a selection policy that he knew was in place BEFORE he signed for racing. Is francois playing at fullback for racing Grant? Has he not said blatantly that his preferred position is 12 and that he is learning a lot from andrew mehrtens?
The Springbok coach should never pander to the whims of youngster like francois steyn! Never.
30 Jun 2010, 10:20 am
If we can cope without Naas, we can cope without Fransie.
30 Jun 2010, 10:21 am
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated)-53:
grant10 is a delusional mad man!!
30 Jun 2010, 10:25 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-51: the mall – are they going shopping?
30 Jun 2010, 10:30 am
@MacToogie(MacToogie)-73:
you’re right we’d all go for the money but the i don’t expect my bread to be buttered both sides
30 Jun 2010, 10:31 am
Fish out of water @71
If they are looking to exploit the mall perhaps a bit of shoplifting is in order.
30 Jun 2010, 10:32 am
If Pienaar was never given the kicking duties, he would still be the Bok flyhalf
30 Jun 2010, 10:36 am
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-52:
I did not know I needed to spell out a post especially for someone that missed the lesson in sentence construction at school but here goes…
Stormers beat 5 out of 5 NZ teams, with kickers that cannot kick the ball 50 meters at best let alone 60 meters (Grant and Joe).
Bulls beat 4 out of 5 NZ teams with a kicker who also did not kick any 60 meter penalties or drops (Steyn).
The penalty against the B&I Lions was 53 meters, at Loftus, at altitude.
30 Jun 2010, 10:38 am
@Bok fan(Bok fan)-80: who should’ve kicked then if not ruan?
30 Jun 2010, 10:39 am
@wpw(wpw)-76: hey, no mudslinging
30 Jun 2010, 10:45 am
Frans Steyn’s value goes well beyond his long-range boot itself. It lies in the THREAT it poses to opposing sides — just knowing that he can punish you with three points on the board from anywhere from his own 10m line onwards means that you are obliged to play an unnatural “safety-first” game. It cramps your style and cuts down your full range of options.
It’s like going to war against an enemy whom you KNOW possesses a nuclear weapon.
30 Jun 2010, 10:45 am
doesn’t matter if F Steyn plays or not ..just get rid of K@K zane!
30 Jun 2010, 10:47 am
@gunther(gunther)-79:
Ruan is not a bad kicker at all. He had a very good percentage this year,
But he had problems with his knee last year and had to change the way of kicking according to his own words. That’s why he had knee surgery in the autumn .
30 Jun 2010, 10:49 am
Brokenrecord.com
Lord I am happy these journos don’t work for my business!
Can you imagine? All they would is constantly whinge day in and day out about what they don’t have and talk about how much better they could be if they had other things…
STOP YOUR NOSTALGIC WHINGING AND GET ON WITH IT!
30 Jun 2010, 10:56 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-82: I thought F Steyn had improved enough by the Lions tests with his kicking and was more accurate than Pienaar. The other option was to play a 12 that can kick like Grant.
That was the luxury a guy like Larkham had, there were always kickers in the team like Burke, Mortlock and Giteu.
The biggest mistake – and this was probably Pienaars fault as he wanted to play 9 – was not playing Pienaar at 10 for the sharks this season with Kockett kicking for poles
30 Jun 2010, 10:56 am
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again (groundhog day): If Steyn was picked for this TN, he would have been playing non-stop since Jan ’09. Rather give him a few weeks off to show off his new Paris, France habits in Parys, Vrystaat. Then he can start his new Top 14 season. He will be in the Bok squad in 2011 – but that will also mean him playing a NH season, straight into Bok duty with WC only late in the year. So another 18month season, after one he just had. This 8 week rest will be all he has.
30 Jun 2010, 11:06 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-81:
oh
i see
joe
and grant
played for
the
stormers
!
30 Jun 2010, 11:06 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-74:
Yes, I remember having an ongoing disagreement with Grant10 about Frans abilities as a “world class” flyhalf. Then, after the WC, Frans decided that he might be happy at 12, which he claims is the reason he went to France. It doesn’t say much for Grants insistence that players should only be selected in a position they want to specialise in. A point the journos here have also made regarding Ruan and Smit.
30 Jun 2010, 11:09 am
@Porra the Fat Speedster(Porra)-90:
Correct!
30 Jun 2010, 11:12 am
Firstly Steyn is our best fullback at the moment! Better than
side show Bob!
His value lies in the long range drop kick and penalty kicks! No penalties in and just outside your half nor no pointless punts down field.
Tubbie at scrumhalf negates any attacking oppurtunities around the fringes.
We will have rely on the forwards as usual
30 Jun 2010, 11:14 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-84: not enough brains by some to realise that Tackler.
30 Jun 2010, 11:15 am
@st.a.t.w(st.a.t.w)-78: Why not, this is his job, why wouldnt he look for the best deals he can, both with Racing and SARU
30 Jun 2010, 11:16 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-93:
In other words, when Steyn plays at 15, the opposition has to play more intelligently and not kick the ball away. That sounds more of a plus for them, than us.
30 Jun 2010, 11:19 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-84: Very good point there Tackler
30 Jun 2010, 11:20 am
@David(David)-91: Frans Steyn wanted to play 10 …..then 12….not 15.
Bottom line is i would choose him at 12 or 15….he is that good….imo.
As for smit at 3….well the less said the better. It is one thing looking to accomodate a gifted player like F Steyn at either 15 or 12, compared to a rather ordinary 2 at a highly specialised 3 !
But you are right, i dont believe in messing players about, see what it has resulted in with Franss and Ruan….one in France and one headed to Ireland.
But seems a lot of know it alls here reckon its fine to discard hugely talented players….so lets see how it goes.
30 Jun 2010, 11:22 am
@MacToogie(MacToogie)-95:
I don’t think anyones complaining about Steyns decision, only about the whinging about how unfair the repercussions are.
30 Jun 2010, 11:23 am
i tell you something for nothing…..i bet a lot of kiwis damn happy when they run on the field they see some other saffa with a 15 on his back as opposed to F Steyn…..
30 Jun 2010, 11:24 am
@MacToogie(MacToogie)-97: Slightly off the topic, but do you guys think TheTackler has found himself a new girlfriend/wife/baby addition to the family? I’m finding myself agreeing with a lot more of his comments – it is like he has calm down a bit, got rid of the chip off his shoulder and now comes out with pretty good stuff. I’m warming to you Tackles.
30 Jun 2010, 11:25 am
David(David) that’s a point but not really in that not all teams play intelligently!
We kick the ball away too much and would kak off if our opp had a steyn in their team
30 Jun 2010, 11:26 am
NZ made 3 mistakes last year (in SA’s half) .. 9 – 0 early on .. this year the can do the same and just give away 3 line outs … M steyn wont make those kicks.
30 Jun 2010, 11:28 am
@Doppies_better_than_De_jongh(suffer_guy)-103: Jaaaa I must admit that exact point concerns me too. That last test in NZ was won for us by Steyn’s long-range penalties…
Some SA team has to lure him back… I would love to see him at Fullback for WP
30 Jun 2010, 11:31 am
@THEBokFan(bokfan1)-104: i would second that!
30 Jun 2010, 11:32 am
Terblanche is a perfect stop gap and should have been in the squad ages ago. Jano Vermaak and Kockett should have been tried in the winter tours, we know Ruan is leaving, we know the Bok management have stuffed him up…but he is still leaving, they should have dropped him. Just wish he had the personality to rise above it, but apparently not.
30 Jun 2010, 11:33 am
@grant10(grant10)-98:
Strangely, I think that PdeV has done everything he could to keep Ruan in the Bok run on side. He’s tried him at 10 and 15 where he wants to use his attacking skills but Ruan is insistent that he wants to play 9. PdeV obviously has his own ideas who and what he wants as an alternative to FdP.
30 Jun 2010, 11:36 am
@Doppies_better_than_De_jongh(suffer_guy)-103: @THEBokFan(bokfan1)-104: The thing that you forget is that he doesn’t always get those kicks. Last year he slotted 5 and missed 5. So on average we’d get less than 6 points from those penalties. My question is, 3 attacking lineouts deep in opposition 22, do you back the boks to come out with 6 points? I do.
30 Jun 2010, 11:37 am
I certainly hope SPretorius gets a look in! He was a stand out player at Griquas?? and then for the Cheetahs too, winning 3 mom performances in their last 4 games!
30 Jun 2010, 11:41 am
I realise that Kirchner isn’t a glamorous fullback, but I also reckon that his handling of the high balls has been unfairly grown out of proportion. Sure, the one knock on immediately after he came on as a replacement was pretty obvious, but the one against the Italians wasn’t his fault. I watched the slow mo and it shows the Italian player actually knocking the ball onto Kirchners chest before he’d caught it.
30 Jun 2010, 11:42 am
@David(David)-107: ja….its a pity no one listened to what Ruan wanted….that has always been my contention, a change of position should only be entertained if the affected player totally 100 % buys in.
This has never been the case with Ruan…ever. Fact. He was always a reluctant, at best, 10. He believes he is a 9.
Frans wanted 10….failed..and now very happy at 12….but by all accounts happy to play at 15 for boks. I reckon unless he comes back to SA he will miss the wc2011….a great pity imo.
Together with the losses if brussow,J Smith and FDP….and of course Bissy….it will be an interesting year for boks.
I do hope they cope, some very able replacements….butit wont be easy. The kiwis had no answer for our kick n chase and tackle and pilfer tactics l;ast year….without Brussow and Bissy this tactic becomes more difficult to implement…..and also Januarie is a very different player to FDP….so it looks like we may have to adapt to a new strategy completely.
We have the players imo…..will be very interesting to see how we go about the business this year.
30 Jun 2010, 11:44 am
@Ratel Brussow(Morne Steyn is under-rated)-108:
The point is, are the Boks good enough to beat the ABs and Aussies without goaling 60m penalties? If not, then we’ve got more problems than omitting Frans.
30 Jun 2010, 11:47 am
@grant10(grant10)-98: know it alls?
its self-backslappers like you who invented the oscars ou pel.
30 Jun 2010, 11:49 am
@Doppies_better_than_De_jongh(suffer_guy)-103: before hamilton how many of those kicks had frans made? What is his percentage beyond 50m? Has he kicked any penalties like that since he moved to racing? What position does he play in france
30 Jun 2010, 11:50 am
@grant10(grant10)-111: i forgot to say good morning young lady!
@grant10(grant10)-111: the way the rules are applied have changed grant. this year is the year of the maul as it is a far better bet to keep ball in hand.
why are you not backing flouw btw?
30 Jun 2010, 11:52 am
Louw is an able replacement for Brussow, who will battle to get his position back. Smit is a better hooker than Bismarck and his work rate has improved on top of an already impressive one.
We need a steady hand at the back, Kirchner isnt it….my suggestion is the level head of Terblanche.
Otherwise let the Kiwi’s and Aussies worry, we’ll be there or thereabouts and the team travels much better than previously.
30 Jun 2010, 11:52 am
@rangerman(rangerman)-113: i see Black Panther simply ignores you.
I think i will do the same strategy…..
goodbye
30 Jun 2010, 11:52 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-109:
Yes, he is inconsistent, but long-range penalties aside, the ABs and Wallabies are terrified of kicking with him at 15. He has, as Jones intimated, that x factor that terrifies them. He can make them look silly through drop goal, run or kick and they dont like it.
It also makes for a predictable attack as Boks know the opposition isn’t going to kick so they can fly into the tackle.
There is so much more to him than a 50/50 success rate at long-range penalties
30 Jun 2010, 11:53 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-114: he has kicked a 60m droppie that couldve travelled 70m.
his record for kicks at 60m is better than anyone else in the world, in fact there are probably only a handful on earth who can do it.
you ask the wrong questions transie, thats why you are always getting the wrong answers.
30 Jun 2010, 11:56 am
Sideshow Bob will need to practice a very basic thing, a look at Lambie, he catches the ball in the air!
Sideshow Bob has shown some nifty touches with the ball in hand and setup some good tries too!
30 Jun 2010, 11:57 am
Are we supposed to build our gameplan around 60m penalty kicks? I’d rather get a 15 that hits the line at speed, makes breaks and puts away the winger. Israel Dagg seems pretty good at that kind of thing. Percy/Joubert when they still had pace.
30 Jun 2010, 11:59 am
@grant10(grant10)-117:
bye bye.
@seamus(seamus)-118: precisely.
it is his ability to even have a go at that distance that makes him special.
that said, i back PDivvy on his selection strategies. individuals are NOT more important than the team.
fransie knew what he was doing now he must live with the consequences.
30 Jun 2010, 12:01 pm
118
seamus(seamus) Good point! No wayward kicking, forces the opp to be more clinical but adds the pressure too
30 Jun 2010, 12:01 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-119:
Zinzan Brooke was a far better exponent of the droppie than Steyn, he could slot them from 75 metres at Loftus.
30 Jun 2010, 12:02 pm
lets put it this way….if stormers were playing in the super 15 final aganst bulls and i had to choose to face F Steyn at 15 or Kirchner….lets just say it wont be F Steyn in the bulls 15 jersey.
And i dont believe Kirchner is a poor 15….or Aplon for that matter…..but hell man i wouldnt want to have to worry about 60 m penalties and a freak drop goal that can win a match….i bet every aussie and kiwi will sleep a lot easier knowing F Steyn is braaing in Parys rather than warming up at Eden Park or Sun corp.
30 Jun 2010, 12:05 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-124:
i will NEVER forget that 45m droppie vs england in 1995.
zinzan was an amazingly gifted player, still a favourite of mine.
funnily enough, the best droppie i saw fransie hit was in last years s14 vs free state (i think it was s14?) into a howling NE wind at kings park (notorious for swirling wind conditions).
a 45m pearler that had the crowd in raptures.
30 Jun 2010, 12:07 pm
@seamus(seamus)-118: i have yet to see the so much more bit applied consistently by Fransie.
Thats the problem with our journos. They beef up their favourites with terms like: ex-factor, potential, talent, threat, affect the pshyche, etc. It seems that if they do it long enough some bloggers start believing it.
Give me facts and compare apples with apples. Dont just trump the facts or subjective **** that makes your favourite player look good.
30 Jun 2010, 12:09 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-127: he is admittedly a bit precocious but i hope that frances can sort out that aspect of frans.
30 Jun 2010, 12:11 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-127:
Frans really has got the ex factor, seeing that he isn’t in the squad.
30 Jun 2010, 12:12 pm
@David(David)-129:
lmao David!
its X-factor you old ballie
30 Jun 2010, 12:12 pm
It’s a bonus when you have someone that can kick 60m penalties but when has it become a necessity?
30 Jun 2010, 12:13 pm
@David(David)-129: hahaha
i have made so many spelling errors today ist nto eevn fnnuy.
Apoloesig
30 Jun 2010, 12:15 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-132:
I actually thought it was an amusing freudian slip.
30 Jun 2010, 12:16 pm
last comment on F Steyn.
Is there a better 15 under the high ball in SA?
Is there a better tackler/
is there a player stronger when taking the ball up and staying on his feet through sheer strength?
Is there a better kicker for touch?
Is there a better points machine…whether a 60 m penalty or drop?
No gents…..its absolutely mind blowing to willy nilly disregard such a talent…..
PDV….kiss and cuddle and make up before its too late….
Frans….make a plan to do whats required….if you are the problem sort out the kop young man….your country needs you.
Cheers all
30 Jun 2010, 12:16 pm
@st.a.t.w(st.a.t.w)-131: what about things like hitting the line at pace. Knowing when to join the line. positional play on defense. Not getting white line fever (distribution), fielding high balls, attacking from the back
these are some of the other qualities Fullbacks need.
Like you said, slotting them from 60 is a bonus. Not the only criteria.
30 Jun 2010, 12:17 pm
Everyone know Steyn is the best fullback avilable to the Boks, but it was his decision to go play abroad for the money, despite PdV making it quite clear he would give preference to local talent. Hayman is also the best tighthead available to the All Blacks, but he was perfectly aware of the situation when he went abroad, you dont hear him bleating and throwing strops at the coach, and you also dont hear the kiwis complaining of the situation either.
30 Jun 2010, 12:20 pm
@grant10(grant10)-134: there you go with the blanket words again : talent, sheer strenght, points machine
Some of your other points might be valid. I would like to see Frans at 15 for the Boks. He is not currently selected. It will not be the end of the world.
He is not the glue that holds the team together or that will determine if we win or lose the TN
30 Jun 2010, 12:20 pm
@gecko(gecko)-121: he does those things anyway, the long kicks are a bonus…I dont understand your point?
30 Jun 2010, 12:21 pm
@David(David)-133: wish i could claim it. too honest for that. Sorry
30 Jun 2010, 12:24 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-135:
slotting 60m penalties he can(occasionally) but the other things you mentioned he lacks that’s why i would’nt bother with him in my team(maybe on the bench) and only if he played his rugby in SA
30 Jun 2010, 12:26 pm
I mentioned this elsewhere wrt to Steyn…
What are the main issues holding Frans out of the Bok squad?
* Apparently, breakdown in relations between him (or his agent) and Bok coach PDV.
* Apparently, non-stop rugby from the 3N last year which means he wants to rest.
* Lack of form according to PDV playing in a sub-standard competition, and not playing where PDV wants him, 15.
Those are 3 things I can think of, all of them apparent reasons, or someone else’s opinion like PDV’s.
Now the first reason, and you have been a coach, if there is a breakdown in relations between you and a player, who is the one that needs to come to the party? Are you as coach going to grovel after a player, or do you as coach believe the player needs to change his attitude or agent.
I will leave that with you since you coached before – any other guy that coached, or even if you did not, please feel free to tell me who (Frans or PDV) needs to come to the party here?
Remember also, PDV cannot change Fransie’s agent (if he is the problem), Fransie can – so who needs to make the move here and show initiative?
Second point.
Won’t deny that, but then this is a non-point wrt to this debate – if Frans needs a break and wants a break then we should not be discussing PDV selecting him or not.
Third point.
The French top 14 is a club league, they are not part of the higher leagues like Heineken Cup teams. If we can compare them in any way it would be one of the SA teams not in the Super 14 but who still plays Currie Cup.
He has not played at 15 much, a position PDV publicly said he believed Frans was the best in the world in at the end of the 2009 Bok season.
Where he should have worked even harder on his game at 15, or even improve, he did not from the last time he played for the Boks.
Not only that, he played in position outside of the scope of the Boks and PDV has for him in a side which at best, is a Currie Cup side and not even Super rugby side playing in a Super rugby-type competition.
We all saw what Frans can do at 15, for that I do believe it is a pity he;
a) Did not play 15 at Metro even
b) Stay in SA to play 15 for a local team
c) Did what BJ, CJ, Jean did and come back to SA to throw his committment behind the team for the RWC in 2011.
PDV’s question in his form and the league he plays in can be justified to some degree.
We have players who performed well in this year’s Super 14 in Kirchner and no, he is no Steyn, but he is more than decent.
If it is anything outside of rugby like the relationship, then also, the buck stops with Steyn.
For those reasons, I am not losing sleep over the loss of Steyn, nor do I believe any injustice is done against him, or Bok rugby.
30 Jun 2010, 12:27 pm
@carcharodon carcharias(carcharodon carcharias)-138: when does he do all these things as fullback? give me an example of when he put his winger away playing as fullback
when last did he play fullback regularly?
30 Jun 2010, 12:27 pm
Obviously the guy I spoke to coached rugby before…
30 Jun 2010, 12:31 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-141: as much as I agree with you, I dont think the so-called journos and other bloggers want to get confused by the facts.
well put
30 Jun 2010, 12:38 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-143:
Well said.
30 Jun 2010, 12:38 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-142: All the time, playing for Natal!
The comment I was referring to was the one about “building your game around 60m drop goals” and as I recall it wasnt directed at you. Nevertheless, his agent is the problem it has been reported and not disputed in an article I read in Europe. So it is academic.
I have never rated him at fullback, lots of guys disagree with me, I thought he did fine for us at centre…but he is now not in the mix.
If we put Kirchner there, we are going to leak points, there are a few players who appear not to be able to make the step up to International rugby…Wynand Olivier and Zane Kirchner amongst them, there are others who thrive on it, like Ricky Januarie.
My argument is Terblanche provides a steady option, even though he has dropped a bit of pace, he makes very few mistakes and fits into the Bok pattern…he probably can make it to the world cup too…I’ve been saying this for the last two years, although in a different guise. Kirchner is not our best option…and in my opinion, neither is Steyn.
30 Jun 2010, 12:45 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-141:
BTW, Steyns lack of form and condition was readily apparent, without PdeVs opinion on the matter. At least, in SA, PdeV does have some form of communication with the unions and Franchises, whereas in Steyns case he’s completely at the mercy of his club.
30 Jun 2010, 12:48 pm
@gecko(gecko)-101: i find these Kiwis go through these stages where they talk sense for a while then they get on the whinge wagon when the NZ sides get their asses handed to them, just look out for the Suzie chirps in the 3N
30 Jun 2010, 12:53 pm
Naas could kick a 100m drop kick with a wet leather ball.
30 Jun 2010, 12:53 pm
@MacToogie(MacToogie)-148: So it was Suzie’s chips that did it…always thought it was the steak up to now
30 Jun 2010, 12:55 pm
@D0C(D0C)-149: Dont care much about kicking! He must pay child support!
30 Jun 2010, 12:57 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-141: i always thank you for my sanity on this blog sometimes.
After your post the bandwagon of poor Fransie “the great” supporters are silent
30 Jun 2010, 12:57 pm
#100 – GRANT – Absolutely correct and the several others, including Tackler – Jeez, if even he’s on the sampe page as with his view of Francois Steyn – and the cramping it puts on the opposition (very shrewd and accurate observation Tackler) – then we must be right. And we must be double-right if Eddie Jones says the same thing.
The only good thing that can be said about his non-inclusion in the series is that he will get some rest and recuperation. But my growing fear is that Peter de Villiers has an immense ego and the more you disagree with him, no matter how right you are, he will just stubbornly dig in.
Which brings me back to the subject of Eddie Jones – in a perfect world he would be the Bok coach and nobody would stand a chance against us.
30 Jun 2010, 12:57 pm
@carcharodon carcharias(carcharodon carcharias)-150: well as rumors tend to do, it varies from each person’s perspective, us Saffas like it that way because its like the 2nd gunman on the grassy noel, she will never be caught…. Suzie you go girl, we hope you like the gold watch.
30 Jun 2010, 12:57 pm
@D0C(D0C)-149: Thats right, he only had one nut and they gave him a false one, didnt know it was made of leather though.
Makes me think of the t-shirt I had made the other day “the older I get, the better I was”
30 Jun 2010, 13:01 pm
Kirchner hasn’t been that bad at 15 but I don’t think he’s the answer. What is PDV going to do though if he is injured?
30 Jun 2010, 13:02 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-153: please give us examples of how when P Div was wrong in the past he stubbornly digged in.
I can show you the contrary:
He is a Schalck fan but persisted with Brussouw when he played well
He raves about Ruan, but when Morne stepped up he persisted with him
He rates Earl Rose, but never played him in a test
After seeing the apporach in 2008 did not work, the gameplan was adapted and we played a different brand of rugby that won us the TN
Please backup your argument with facts.
30 Jun 2010, 13:06 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-153: that the same ego that John Smit, Victor Matfield, Butch James, Jean Div, CJ and BJ cannot deal with? (All senior Boks)
hence the reason they never wanted to move back to SA to play for this stubborn coach???
30 Jun 2010, 13:09 pm
Check PDV’s record at the Boks….not too shabby….best results ever matches played and won while he was in charge? I think it actually might be correct!
leave him alone, he treats the players with respect, the players respect him, the senior players are allowed to have a say in the strategy….if/when we win the world cup again, he can write his own ticket. I am a fan. Jones is a good backline coach, nothing more than that, check his record.
30 Jun 2010, 13:11 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-157: Ricky Januarie, nuff said =P
but i dont agree that PDV is stubborn, he has made some brilliant selections and some bad ones and as with JW i shall judge PDV on the RWC next year
30 Jun 2010, 13:12 pm
@MacToogie(MacToogie)-160: but all coaches make some bad selections so its nothing new
30 Jun 2010, 13:22 pm
PDivvy is a rock star.
he made the boks into prickly pears that beat the welsh, in wales, with an experimental side.
this is good, very good.
30 Jun 2010, 13:25 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-126: Zinzan was awesome but the greatest player of all time has to still be CULLEN
30 Jun 2010, 13:26 pm
Spot on Eddie
30 Jun 2010, 13:28 pm
kitch christie had a 100% record as national coach – best coach the boks ever had
30 Jun 2010, 13:28 pm
@Bok fan(Bok fan)-163: of all time?
hmmm……
a great player to be sure but he didnt have the strike rate of danie gerber did he?
so many great players over the years.
30 Jun 2010, 13:30 pm
@D0C(D0C)-165: what a coach.
one of the coaches who could think out of the box and wasnt averse to playing players out of position.
mark andrews at no.8 in a wc final springs to mind.
30 Jun 2010, 13:31 pm
@ BOK FAN – Naas was definitely the best player of all time, 2nd place goes to Jonah Lomu
30 Jun 2010, 13:33 pm
Steyn will be missed but Kirchener will do well.
Sure, he dropped a couple high balls but this is something you never see from him in S14.
good positional play
nasty defender
and joins the line better than any other fullback we have.
30 Jun 2010, 13:40 pm
@D0C(D0C)-168: “best player of all time” is just way too subjective and limiting in a game with a multitude of specialist positions.
for instance, naas was no good as at tighthead and victor matfield is quite kuk at scoring droppies.
30 Jun 2010, 13:40 pm
PDV has had a lot to work with, he started with the most experienced team in Bok history and has built on that.
I’m glad he has developed the team from there.
The true test is when he has to identify the new talent and build from scratch after the WC.
Jake built a WC winning team from nothing. I will respect that as long as I live. I have no problems with PDV. He has his ups and downs but in general has got things right.
His true test will come.
30 Jun 2010, 13:48 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-171: pdv will never have to build a team from scratch and neither did jake white.
there is always continuity of players and if you look at the 2003 wc squad that straueli selected with guys like juan smith, john smit, jaque fourie, bakkies etc etc you will see this.
PDivvy has already blooded a host of “his own” players like brussow, beast, JdJ, kirchner, flip vd merve, bekker, gio aplon, hargreaves, francois louw, dewald potgieter etc to pick up after the 2011 wc.
in effect, he has identified and blooded a core of his “new team” already using the old heads to metor them.
this is outright brilliant imo and he hasnt compromised results whilst doing it.
what a coach!
30 Jun 2010, 13:53 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-166:
How many tests did Gerber play?
30 Jun 2010, 13:54 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-171
Jake had to build a team virtually from scratch. I think he started off with a team of about 90 caps between them and Paulse had 50 of those, Smit had about 3 caps back then, PDV started with 800+.
Jake led the way in identifying his players and sticking with them.
Viljoen picked about 100 players in his 4 years and Strauli wasn;t far off.
PDV will have to start from a low base after the WC even if he is blooding players now. The majority of the players you talk about blooding have less than 8 caps. They are still being blooded not have been blooded. Time will tell if they are the right choices or not.
If won’t be like the mess Jake picked up – I hope you remember – 7 years ago might be a long time to remember back. You could still have been in primary school back then – quite possible
30 Jun 2010, 13:54 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-173: 24 i think.
thats why i referred to strike rate.
30 Jun 2010, 13:55 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-157: Good points. A rarity on Keo.
30 Jun 2010, 13:55 pm
The biggest choice will be picking his captain.
30 Jun 2010, 13:56 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-175:
How many tries?
30 Jun 2010, 13:57 pm
172. rangerman(rangerman) :
174. Mike H
Or let me restate the last part – many muppets here could have been 10 years old in 2003 and don;t quite remember the mess SA rugby was in.
It was heart breaking – amazing to think where we are now
30 Jun 2010, 13:59 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-179:
Your right it was getting very boring, the Bokke were no challenge and nobody wanted to see that.
30 Jun 2010, 14:01 pm
Even worse we were getting our asses kicked left right and centre. New caps every 5 secons. Quarter final WC exit, Camp Staalgraat my god – what a mess
30 Jun 2010, 14:02 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-181:
Yer the Pommes put 50 past you didn’t they, that must have been a very difficult day at the office.
30 Jun 2010, 14:02 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-174:
you are an amusing chap mike h but your insult at the end indicates that yo feel your opinion on this is indisputable when in fact, it is not.
jake did not build a team from scratch. jake had old heads in his team and js was a bok for two coaches before jake.
what jake did do was stick with a side until they settled (much like pdv has done) and blood new players into a settled side slowly (much like pdv is doing).
the whole team will not dissapear after the wc mike, much like the new govt didnt close down your old age home and confiscate your pension in 1994.
30 Jun 2010, 14:03 pm
@David(David)-147:
Also a good point.
30 Jun 2010, 14:04 pm
…and Jorrie Muller was our outside center for the worldcup.
30 Jun 2010, 14:05 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-185:
and corny krige was masquerading as an international openside flanker.
30 Jun 2010, 14:05 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-183:
How many will you win in NZ this year? My take on it is that it will be alot closer than last year NZ were terrible last year and low on confidence, the Bokke had their tails up and played very well.
30 Jun 2010, 14:07 pm
183. rangerman(rangerman) :
Ye I restated the last part.
Remind me of the experienced players Jake started with?
Paulse and?
PDV started with, the most epxerienced Captain in history, the most experienced lock pairing in history, and the most experience bok side in history. Yes one or 2 have dropped away but teh majority and core are this there and the core today. New, quality talent has been identified, sure and hats off to PDV.
I have nothing against PDV. But I am still a JW admirers over and above.
Jake was technical assistant to Mallet – so I can imagine he learnt a lot there. Can;t remember his involvement with Strauli or Viljoen but can imagine he learnt what not to do there.
30 Jun 2010, 14:07 pm
was PDV also a fan of Rose & Lobberts? Saying that they play the type of rugby he wants the Boks to move to?
30 Jun 2010, 14:08 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-178: 16 or was it 19.
i am too lazy to check.
@Mike H(Mike H)-179: 2001-2003 will forever be remembered as dark days by bok fans.
and jake undoubtedly had a hand in restoring pride to the blazer.
i am not a jake hater but i wont agree that he “built a team from scratch” as he selected players that previous bok coaches had also selected ( a lot of them went to a wc the year before).
PdV has already passed the test. he did so when he flew to france and got vic and smitty to come back.
he is also planning for the future. so im his test has come and he is passing it as we speak.
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-182: the 1/4 final of the 2007 wc means that you can empathise with us.
dark days all round.
30 Jun 2010, 14:11 pm
it’l be a close 3 nations this year.
south africa just needs 1 away win, in my opinion to be in with a shot regardless of travel.Preferably against the kiwis.
then we need to paddle the kiwis and ozzies at home.And it is all down to points difference.
who knows…maybe nobody wins away this year and it is all down to home victories and points difference?
30 Jun 2010, 14:12 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-190:
True but NZ were winning everything else so we really haven’t had the dark days for an extened period, many on here suggest NZ were kak last year, we won the Bledisloe, runner up to a great Bokke side and got another grand slam and finished number 1 in the world if thats the dark days we’ll just have to take it on the chin every now and again.
30 Jun 2010, 14:12 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-174:
White’s first ever test team had 185 caps.
His second, against the very same Ireland in 2004 had 250.
Smit already had 26 caps back then, Victor 24
By the end of 2004 or there about, the team he picked shared 426 caps between them (the infamous men against boys test against England).
30 Jun 2010, 14:14 pm
@Doppies_better_than_De_jongh(suffer_guy)-189: Lobberts was first capped by Jake White
@Mike H(Mike H)-188: De Villiers also worked under Mallet – on EOYT during 17 match unbeaten run.
30 Jun 2010, 14:16 pm
all our home games are at altitude this year.
well done.
Kiwis at Ellis Park
Boks by 15
30 Jun 2010, 14:17 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-195: So was the infamous 16-52 match
30 Jun 2010, 14:17 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-187: it will be a lot closer this year mate.
i hope the boks win one in nz.
@Mike H(Mike H)-188: pdv was also an assistant coach under mallet.
some of the players who went to the 2003 wc:
de wet barry, werner greef, jaque fourie, breyten paulse, stefan terblanche, joost, ashwin willemse, richard bands, bakkies, schalk, victor matfield, danie rossouw, juan smith, john smit, joe van niekerk
there are others but i thought i would mention the ones who played under jake. so should jake thank straueli for blooding these players for him?
for whatever reason, jake got the best out of these players unlike rudolph and like the mallet and carel scenario, he benefitted from a previous coach bringing young guys through.
30 Jun 2010, 14:17 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-195:
We lobbied hard for Loftus, its like a home game for us.
30 Jun 2010, 14:18 pm
Jake selected Gaffie Du Toit in his first test side as a left wing.
I thought that was a particularly brilliant back then.
30 Jun 2010, 14:19 pm
Straeulis Bok side 2003 v ABs the 2nd column is the number of caps.
Christo Bezuidenhout Pumas 33 3
Hooker John Smit Sharks 25 25
Tight-head Prop Faan Rautenbach WP 27 11
Lock Bakkies Botha Blue Bulls 24 10
Lock Victor Matfield Blue Bulls 26 23
Flank (C) Corné Krige WP 28 38
Flank Danie Rossouw Blue Bulls 25 3
Eighthman Juan Smith Cheetahs 22 9
Scrumhalf Joost van der Westhuizen Blue Bulls 32 88
Flyhalf Derick Hougaard Blue Bulls 20 4 3 penalties
Left Wing Thinus Delport Falcons 28 17
Inside Centre De Wet Barry WP 25 22
Outside Centre Jorrie Muller Lions 22 5
Right Wing Ashwin Willemse Lions 22 8
Full Back Jaco van der Westhuyzen Blue Bulls 25 8
Reserve Jaque Fourie Lions 20 3
Reserve Richard Bands Blue Bulls 29 10
Reserve Schalk (junior) Burger WP 20 2
Reserve Danie Coetzee Blue Bulls 26 11
Reserve Louis Koen Lions 28 14
Reserve Selborne Boome WP 28 19
Reserve Neil de Kock WP 24 9
30 Jun 2010, 14:20 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-198:
….just like we had hoped for the house of pain.
but your boys shut it down after ricky took the keys home.
30 Jun 2010, 14:21 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-193:
His first big test in 2004 against NZ (after inbound tours) he had a team that shared 349 caps.
Up to that stage players he used in tests experienced with 15 tests or more:
Os
Smit
Albert van den berg
AJ Venter
De Wet Barry
Breyton
Big Joe
Victor
Percy
Marius Joubert
30 Jun 2010, 14:21 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-199: No he didn’t. Du Toit was fullback: scrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/24711.html
30 Jun 2010, 14:22 pm
@David(David)-200:
BTW, that was for the WC QF.
30 Jun 2010, 14:22 pm
@grant10(grant10)-17: Spot-on analysis there buddy, I agree wholeheartedly.
30 Jun 2010, 14:23 pm
@David(David)-200:
to be fair…not a complete disaster of a side. Just no faith in the game plan, if there ever was one and not dynamic or experienced enough in a couple key positions.
30 Jun 2010, 14:25 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-174: Jake White, Nick Mallett’s video technician, was a good coach. When everyone saw the Bok coaching position as somewhat a poisoned chalice he had the balls to put his hands up and take on the post. He formed a great partnership with John Smit, his Captain, similarly to Kitch Christie and Francois Pienaar. PdV also seems to have a good relationship with his Captain. Nick Mallett, although a good coach, did not seem to build a good relationship with an undisputed leader on the field – in short, he farked up with Teichmann.
The better coaches in recent times, say post-isolation do seem to have some common characterisitics in their tenure:
1. Stability in selection (they select the same hardcore or spine of players.
2. Except for Mallett, they do have a good relationship built on trust with their Captain.
3. They are strong characters – i.e. not easily swayed. At times this can be a weakness but mostly it is a strength.
4. They seemed to be good man managers – i.e. the players respected them. However Mallett did lose a bit of this with his Teich / Bob mess up.
They also had some differences:
1. Kitch Christie and Nick Mallett were innovators. With Kitch, this was a strength eg. Hennie Le Roux and Andrew’s positional switches. With Mallett this became a weakness, eg. changing a successful loosie combo for a bright and shiny protege – Bob Skinstad.
2. Jake White was a good tactician. eg. he developed a simple, solid gameplan that suited the mindset and physicality of SA players. He also selected players to carry out this gamplan.
3. PdV seems to have a huge strength in man management. He does have skills in this area. He also seems to have self-evalation skills which enable him to correct mistakes which other coaches do not seem to. This is where ther strength in strong character would lead to a weakness in stubborness. eg. White and Mallett.
4. Christie seemed to be the most complete coach – he had elements of being a good tactician, innovation and his players would die for him on the field.
My 2c worth…
30 Jun 2010, 14:25 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-188: @rangerman(rangerman)-183:
Listen up people. In 2007 when Jake won the world cup their were only 4 players that had debuted in his tenure that made his starting 15 for the final. In 2009, for the last 3N game, PdV starting 15 had 4 players he had handed caps to.
Its hard to compare the 2 eras as SA rugby has grown, but unfair to say Jake laid the platform. I believe PdV is a better coach for this era and Jake was good for the last one.
30 Jun 2010, 14:25 pm
#157 + #158 Moedeloos – and others – the jury is out for me on Peter de Villiers although I will certainly concede that he has overseen several very good Bok performances; and that is encouraging – moreover, and very importantly in the SA context, he has the courage to stand up to the politicians, which should not be underestimated.
But in terms of his ‘success’ how much of that can be attributed to the quality of the players under his command? I would say ‘quite a lot’ – while I do concede that he was flexible in changing his original approach in an unhappy first year and reverting to more traditional SA structural play. But again, how much of this was due to pressure from the players?
He couldn’t play Rose because there wasn’t a place for him? Not nearly. Having said that I often get the impression of somebody who is headstrong, autonomous and makes knee-jerk decisions, e.g. his bench-playing and selections nearly cost us the series against the Lions.
With regard to his position on Francois Steyn I join a lot of people from Eddie Jones to Tackler, who see this as a serious and irrational decision – no doubt this will have been pointed out to him but I stand by what I say – he is being stubborn about it and it is a huge error in judgement which will cost us dearly – and by that I mean the World Cup. Steyn is a prodigy who needs to be harnessed not jacked around like he is the enemy.
30 Jun 2010, 14:25 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-192: mate, i am glad you dig your side.
they are one of the great rugby teams.
lets start the hostilies next week ok? otherwise we will run out of things to say before the first whistle blows.
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-193: thanks PA.
but wasnt the men vs boys test played in 2003 under straueli?
simply put, jake had plenty of experienced players who had already been in the bok setup to work with. he just managed them better.
30 Jun 2010, 14:27 pm
@gecko(gecko)-203:
I’m pretty sure that the gafster played left wing for jake a few times. Wasn’t Percy fullback?
30 Jun 2010, 14:27 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-141: We also have seen what F Steyn can do at 12. Forget about a WC in 2007…?
30 Jun 2010, 14:28 pm
190. rangerman(rangerman) :
Ye happy with that assessment
Saying jake started from scratch might be an exaggeration – I will rephrase – he started with a varstly inexperienced team and built a team from chaos.
I think Strauli took the most inexperienced Bok team to a WC in history as well.
30 Jun 2010, 14:29 pm
Os had about 50 caps as well I think, him and Paulse were the experienced players.
30 Jun 2010, 14:30 pm
@logie_Jumpbuck(logie_Jumpbuck)-38: We won the 3N last year due to tactical astuteness, which depended heavily on Brussow’s scavenging, our superior lineout and the boot of the back division.
The presence of Frans Steyn in 15 caused opposing teams to tailor their gameplan as they had very little confidence in their own kicking game. The moment he got dropped (against Australia) the opposition felt much more comfortable playing for territory.
The Springbok team must consist out of the best possible 15 available. End of story.
30 Jun 2010, 14:30 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-212:
What exactly did he do at 12 in 2007.
He had a good, but average World Cup, certainly not setting the world alight.
Two things that stand out about his performance in 2007, his one long range penalty in the final, and two, his missed tackle in the midfield that almost led to England’s try which was of course, ruled no try in the end by Stu Dickenson.
30 Jun 2010, 14:31 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-213: “Strauli took the most inexperienced Bok team to a WC in history as well” – One name – Kitch Christie. His Boks were not that experienced in terms of test caps…? I stand to be corrected though.
30 Jun 2010, 14:31 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-214:
Os had 39 caps in his first test under White.
Paulse, 40.
30 Jun 2010, 14:31 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-210:
The men v boys was Jakes comment after the England disaster.
30 Jun 2010, 14:33 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-217:
Kitch’s Bok team in the final had 200 caps between all of them
His most experienced player: James Small – 22 caps.
30 Jun 2010, 14:33 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-207: what a post. i am not bagging jake as i respect what he has done but i respect pdv achievements too.
i will now stfu as you have said it all.
@Ratel Brussow (MSIUR)(Francois Steyn is over-rated)-208: interesting, thanks man.
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-209: a kuk coach can destroy even the most talented of sides.
30 Jun 2010, 14:33 pm
211. Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)
Ye Gaffie was there. I can’t say Jake did everything thing right, don’t believe he did. Just admire what he did for SA rugby – brought us back from the brink.
I am happy with what PDV has done so far. He came to built on what was there and not destroyed it. For that I am extremely happy actually.
But he has some big challenges ahead
30 Jun 2010, 14:33 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-209: your first few paragraphs is a bit of an about-turn on your first comment.
for your last paragraph – refer to post 158
30 Jun 2010, 14:34 pm
jake white brought through players he worked with at baby bok level. pdv doing same thing now. people tend to forget pdv won u20 w/c, just as jake did before becoming senior coach
30 Jun 2010, 14:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-212: why did jake?play francois steyn at 12 in the world cup when wynand olivier was selected as the cover for jdv? Why did jake skip meisiekind and opt for francois?
30 Jun 2010, 14:36 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-213: But he also took over a team with limited public expectancy.
30 Jun 2010, 14:36 pm
@David(David)-147: If you are referring to the Cardiff excursion, it is an unfair assessment.
I thought he positioned himself quite well, but was poor on the counterattack due to a lack of support when he collided with defense.
On the latter, he played with very inexperienced wings and loose forwards on the day. This was quite apparent in the first half, when both Louw and Potgieter was still finding their feet as a combination.
30 Jun 2010, 14:37 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-216: 1. What age was he in 2007?
2. He was slotted in at 12, in a world cup after how many caps for the Boks.
3. 12 might not be a flash position but it is crucial to the structure of the backline on “D” and on offense. Steyn was not flashy but was solid…
4. His “missed” tackle is debatable (the man who made the break was a 13?),
5. If he did make an error, it was one of very few.
6. He was playing against 12′s such as Catt, Contepomi, Fiji Monsters who were far mor experienced than him.
You are being illogically negative about the guy…
30 Jun 2010, 14:37 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-213: well it seems we have nothing to disagree on then mike.
out for a bit, cheers.@David(David)-219: i am confused david.
i remember we lost to england when habs made his debut in 2004 but i was still guiding in those day so probably only saw the highlights and thats why the memory is a little hazy.
please remind me?
30 Jun 2010, 14:39 pm
@willievz(willievz)-227:
Even so, he looked awfully slow and out of condition. He also seemed uninterested.
30 Jun 2010, 14:39 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-213:
Mallet ’99 = 528 caps in the team that beat NZ in the 3rd place play off match – most experienced: Mark Andrews, 60 caps, least experienced: Breyton Paulse, 7 caps.
Straeuli ’03 = 342 caps in the team that lost to NZ in 1/4 finals – most experienced: Joost, 88 caps, least experience: (run-on 15) Danie Rossouw and Jacque Fourie 3 caps each / (reserves) Schalk Burger 2 caps
White ’04 = 689 caps in the team that beat England in the final – most experienced: Percy, 93 caps, least experienced: Bismarck, 8 caps.
30 Jun 2010, 14:40 pm
@mamma_lou(mamma_lou)-224: u21 wc i think.
u20 wc is new and has only been won by the kiwis.
ok, out.
30 Jun 2010, 14:41 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-225: Ask Jake? But I would imagine that Jake saw that Steyn had the ability to do the job in the context of his gameplan… He fitted Jakes mould…? In this instance it worked for Jake White… The Boks won a World Cup.
30 Jun 2010, 14:42 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-221: Good man
30 Jun 2010, 14:44 pm
i would rather have F Steyn at 12 or 15 before all the other Bok contenders any day of the week…..
30 Jun 2010, 14:45 pm
223. Moedeloos – it is not a turnaround – I still think he is stubborn but I do concede he has got good points and probably the only person in SA, all things considered.
I have no idea what #158 has to do with the comments on Steyn by me and the bulk of this website and the writer of the article
30 Jun 2010, 14:45 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-220: Relatively inexperienced compared to subsequent Bok teams…?
Also relatively inexperienced compared to opposition teams at the 95 World Cup – think Aus, ABs, Eng, France (Much experience there) not to mention other sides like Ireland etc.
30 Jun 2010, 14:45 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-228:
I am???
Strange…
You asked me if I forgot 2007?
I responded that I did.
And listed two very distinct things I remembered from 2007 in the World Cup with regards to Steyn (ignoring his yellow card which was ridiculous).
So I answered your question. Best I could.
You then go off on a tangent about how crucial 12 play is how old Steyn was (20 years and 15 tests BTW) and suddenly I am negative about the kid?
I find that strange…
You ask me a question, I answer it where I do not criticise him unfairly in any way and suddenly I am negative about him?
For the record, I like him quite a bit as a player, did back then too.
But perhaps it is his cheerleaders who are a bit oversensitive about Fransie if someone does not agree with them that he is the best thing since sliced bread.
30 Jun 2010, 14:46 pm
@David(David)-230: I am not saying that he was good on the day. But be careful about judging him after one game, especially in a patched-up team and a pointless fixture.
About the only players who performed on the day were Danie Rossous, the hungry flankers and Jaque Fourie defensively. There were flashes of individual hunger from De Jong and Aplon too, but they also made several mistakes that can easily escape the naked eye.
FS’ lack of form on the day was a convenient excuse for PDV to justify his stance on foreign resources.
I thought Van Niekerk was instrumental in guiding both Louw and Potgieter (who had 20 minutes of test rugby between them before kick-off).
30 Jun 2010, 14:46 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-238:
I did not… (forget about 2007)
30 Jun 2010, 14:47 pm
@grant10(grant10)-235: My preference at 12 would be a fit Steyn… At 15, Aplon. Fark the size at fullback bullshite. Aplon has all the skills…
30 Jun 2010, 14:47 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-211: Percy was originally selected, but withdrew. Gaffie has 5 sub appearances at wing, the last the loss vs France in CT: scrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/12902.html?class=1;template=results;type=player;view=match
30 Jun 2010, 14:48 pm
@rangerman(rangerman)-232: yep thats right. so if this trend continues eric sauls will be next bok coach
30 Jun 2010, 14:51 pm
Luckypacketfuckadillyarsefacedkuntingjakeythesnakewhitebullybrekeroverratedprimadonnas.
30 Jun 2010, 14:53 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-238: it is called rubbishing the holder of a different view, heaven’s game is a master at it,.
30 Jun 2010, 14:55 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-241: ja….F Steyn must try and get home….sharks can do with a 12….not sure Rudi Keil the answer!
30 Jun 2010, 14:57 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-236: 158 speaks to the fact that contrary to the belief that Div is stubborn and has an ego when it comes to Steyn, its funny how all of the players mentioned in 158 did not experience the same issue with the coach.
30 Jun 2010, 14:57 pm
dammit i will not be confident without the mighty mouse Brussow….
anyway….month end…
outta here
30 Jun 2010, 14:59 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-238: bulls eye re last sentence of your post…wait till sharks_lover gets here…you’re in for the high jump boetie
30 Jun 2010, 15:02 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-249:
Worst is, I actually rate Fransie quite highly!
Just dont get the current massive hoohaa about his non-selection. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
30 Jun 2010, 15:06 pm
@ heavens game – Catt ha ha ha experience was all he had
30 Jun 2010, 15:07 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-238: Maybe I misread you but it was the “Not only that, he played in position outside of the scope of the Boks and PDV has for him in a side which at best, is a Currie Cup side and not even Super rugby side playing in a Super rugby-type competition.”
I just thought that it would be good to revisit 2007 where Steyn probably was one of the better 12′s in the World Cup of that year…
Yes, he has been one of the better 15′s in recent times and still could be.
I am concerned about his desire in wanting to play for the Boks but the guy has achieved everything in Rugby before reaching his mid-20′s.
The only thing he hasn’t achieved is a “legend” legacy which is possible for him. He needs to lay off the French cuisine (a simplistic view) and he needs a wise agent / advisor who will hopefully help him envision some sort of quest for greatness.
Look, I am not trying to be a cheerleader for the guy but he truly could become a great 12. I don’t see him being a great 15 – as one of the best of all time (think Juba, HO, Percy just a few examples for the Boks, and for the rest of the world – Cullen, Blanco etc). At 12, he could be if he really desired to be so. He has all the attributes to be the best 12.
Ask many a French Rugby man and they will tell you how they can’t understand the Bok preference for Steyn at 15 as opposed to at 12. Steyn himself als has a preference for 12 and although the Top 14 is not of the level of the S14, the French, at their best, do know one or two things about backline play. They probably have the best 12 in the world at the moment.
Not wanting to pick a fight, seriously.
30 Jun 2010, 15:07 pm
Question for all the gurus:
There is a lot of talk here about who inhereted which players and judging a coach on that, but which of the great coaches did not? Or did not have great players? To not select great players purely because your predecessor selected them is idiotic….
By that argument, whom, according to you was a great coach, with evidence of titles/performance records – even though he had mediocre to shite players to select from?????
No coach can perform without great players, even a average coach can perform well, but a **** coach can cause a great group of players to implode.
Any suggestions?
30 Jun 2010, 15:08 pm
@willievz(willievz)-239:
The fixture might have been pointless in the greater scheme of things , but it shouldn’t have been for Steyn. I believe that PdeV is perfectly correct in his overseas though.
30 Jun 2010, 15:08 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-250: whats wrong with you. It is clear P Div has an ego, is stubborn and thus his petulance will result in poor Steyn not being selected for the boks. What he does not realise is that Frans is a match winner, points machine, talent and prodigy of note.
You guys are wasting your time. The Cheerleaders see what they want to see. Like i said earlier. They wont let the facts interfere with their opinions.
My opinion is that in the long run all truth will be revealed. Then we all have to be big enough to admit if we were proven wrong.
Same way Tac is not so pessimistic about Div anymore.
30 Jun 2010, 15:11 pm
@D0C(D0C)-251: Catt won a World Cup, and Wilkinson / Woodward will tell you how integral he was for the success of the England side especially in the Final against Aus. He also has a good rugby brain which he has translated into coaching. A good rugby brain is a characteristic of all good 12′s. (Not the biff, bash, crashball variety).
The “ha ha ha experience was all he had” is just arrogant bullshite…
30 Jun 2010, 15:11 pm
@Faust(Faust)-253: Kitch Christie….Farking FULL STOP
30 Jun 2010, 15:12 pm
a jake white selection clanger….
gerrie britz replacing Matfield
…who says WP players don’t get selected easy.
30 Jun 2010, 15:14 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-252: he will not play at 12 for the boks for the next 2 years. jean should be the incumbent till the WC and if we talk talent, prodigy and x-factor i would rather have JDJ as backup till then.
I believe JDJ is a better 13 than a 12 but as backup/bench player for the WC i would have BJ, JDJ and RP on the bench.
30 Jun 2010, 15:15 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-257:
For sure!
But any others? internationals – don’t have to be saffa coaches!
30 Jun 2010, 15:18 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-250: I don’t have an argument about his non-selection, particlarly at 15. At 12 I don’t have too much of a problem either – no hooha from me. It is up to Steyn to show his desire to play for the Boks in the position where he feels most comfortable.
He is at a disadvantage (in Bok terms) – playing in France and there is decent competition now in both of those positions for the Boks. He is going to have to be massive in France this next season at 12 to barge down the Bok doors and he will really have communicate his desire of wanting to represent the Boks in 2011 to PdV.
30 Jun 2010, 15:18 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-252:
On form Steyn is an asset, whether at 12 or at 15.
What I was sayin in my post is that there is a case for PDV to question Steyn’s form however, at 12 (playing for a club side no better than a Currie Cup team in a Currie Cup competition) or at 15 (PDV’s preferred position for him).
The form I refer to is also ‘current’ form.
Yes we know what he did in 2007, and of course we all agree (I think) that he was rather good in 2009 at 15 too.
But his current form (at 12) lack of game time (at 15) leaves a good case for Peter to question his form.
Not only because we do not see most of his games at Metro (neither does Peter) but also the type of player he plays against (which is not the Super 14 quality players and test players of NZ and Aus – even SA).
I think my points rest largely on the fact that if anything in this regard needs to change, it is in the hands of Steyn to do so – not Peter or the Boks.
30 Jun 2010, 15:20 pm
why does everyone dismiss Ian macintosh when it comes to discussing past great bok coaches.
He was a brilliant and visionary coach who unfortunately had the job at a time where he was basically handed players to work with and had little say in who he wanted selected.
the series that we lost in NZ with him as coach had a total points deficit of under 5 points over 3 games if I remember correctly.
….and then there is the best coach to have never had the job…
30 Jun 2010, 15:20 pm
Kitch Christie’s biggest selection clanger: Robbie Brink
Andre Markgraaf: Theo Oosthuizen (non-test), Henry Tromp (test)
Carel Dup: Edrich Lubbe
Mallet: Kaya Molatana (test), Owen Nkumane (non-test)
Harry Viljoen: Deon de Kock
Straueli: Gus Theron (tour), Jorrie Muller, Wessel Roux, Norman Jordaan
White: Hilton Lobberts, Jaco Pretorius
Snor: Earl (tour), Hargreaves
30 Jun 2010, 15:21 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-261:
I think we are on the same page given your last post.
30 Jun 2010, 15:22 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-259: Is Jean the incumbent now – if so, why? He is not the man in form. Both JdJ and WO have demnstrated form in the S14, with JdJ particularly so with the Boks. He (JdV) should be 3 in the pecking order for the Boks on recent form (For Munster) after JdJ and WO.
30 Jun 2010, 15:23 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-265: Yup we actually are – but no need to belittle the guys talent. That was, it seems, my mistaken intepretation of some of yor long post.
30 Jun 2010, 15:23 pm
@ heavens gate – Catt might have had a better rugby brain if he wasn’t still carrying around Jonah Lomu’s studs lodged in it.
30 Jun 2010, 15:24 pm
@gecko(gecko)-264:
jaco pretorius was selected on form in the back end of 2006 I believe. He was playing brilliant rugby at that stage. I’d love for him to be playing anything remotely close to that at the moment.
30 Jun 2010, 15:26 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-262:
With regards to your comments on ‘seeing’ Steyn play in france. It is not difficult for a man in P DIv’s position to request footage of all games played by international saffas.
Sheesh, they have analysts – these guys can compres each players game time into a one-two hour reel for the coach, who can then make a more informed decision.
This aint the 50′s mofos, get some tech savvy into the operation for ****** sake – else, visit one of the many online sites that stream almost all sporting events online….
To say he doesn’t know how these guys are performing overseas is basically saying he is not doing his job!!!
30 Jun 2010, 15:29 pm
@Faust(Faust)-270:
I can (and do get) highlights packages of these games.
That is not the problem.
The problem is defining his play, or quality of play against the opposition he plays against, in the competition he plays against, would be like to ask the coach of Argentina to asses the Argie prop at Boland playing in the CC B division.
Seriously – what is the point?
30 Jun 2010, 15:29 pm
@Faust(Faust)-260: I would debate Woodward… Though he was lucky to have much time in the post to develop the team he wanted… He selected his players and stuck with and developed them over time. I remember some of his huge losses….
He blotted his copybook with the BI Lions though…
Graham Henry with Wales is another that springs to mind…
Ian McGeechan with the 1997 Lions – he identified some players who subsequently achieved a fair amount not only on the 97 Lions tour but with their respective countries too after that tour…
30 Jun 2010, 15:30 pm
@gecko(gecko)-264: Didnt Henry Tromp killed somebody?
30 Jun 2010, 15:31 pm
I mean you seriously think there is a case to be answered for comparing Steyn, playin at Metro in France against some piss-willy teams and players, against Kirchner playing week in and week out against the best SH players in the Super 14 at 15 or Wynand Olivier doing the same at 12?
30 Jun 2010, 15:32 pm
@D0C(D0C)-268: Yes, crash or front on tackling was never his strong point
But he has proven to be a very good 12 since pretending to be chewing gum under a Lomu steamroller…
30 Jun 2010, 15:33 pm
@ faust – you’re right my man… no coach can have success without decent players. kitch christie had inexperienced players but they were all excellent players. “Jake White’s winning ways” however could do nothing for the Lions this super 14…
30 Jun 2010, 15:33 pm
@Mighty Horua(Mighty Horua)-273: Him and his dad beat a farm worker to death. I was at the Cardiff Arms Park when we beat Wales 30-odd something in December 1996, and during the anthems a few protesters ran onto the field protesting about Tromp.
30 Jun 2010, 15:33 pm
@David(David)-254: Steyn performed better than Kirschner I recall, but it would be harsh to judge the Bulls 15 on just 10 minutes.
As I mentioned, there were very few stand-out players on the day. But was Steyn really so poor in that game not to get a call up to the extended 26 3N squad?
I dare say that Steyn did rather well in Cardiff considering the inexperience on the wings and the flankers, but he was off par.
Steyn proved what he could at test match level last year and should have got a run against Italy to get his match fitness back.
A slightly off par Steyn is a better bet than a par Kirschner.
With all the talk about a busy playing schedule and worries about player injuries, the Boks should be thankful that Steyn played in a less demanding French competition.
30 Jun 2010, 15:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-266: Jean played for Munster. His team made the semi’s of the Heineken Cup. JDJ is a bit inexeperienced to be fielded in the TN and we all know that WO goes to pot if he does not wear blue. The point is to groom JDJ playing him behind someone like JDV.
Why would Jean not be first choice? Bearing in mind his past partnership with JF at centre.
30 Jun 2010, 15:36 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-274: How do you justify the selection of CJ, BJ and Butch then?
30 Jun 2010, 15:36 pm
@willievz(willievz)-278:
It took Steyn a whole season at 15 for the Boks in the 3N to prove to people on this very blog that he is worthy of the Bok jersey.
If you remember, there was massive criticism ahead of this selection last year too.
Judging Kirchner on less than what, 200 minutes? of rugby is hardly a fair comparison.
30 Jun 2010, 15:36 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-271:
Point taken, but when you are talking about a talent, don’t you think it is a national coaches job to keep an I on the dude? I’m just saying – it wouldn’t exactly break the bank
Fark Justin TV is fairly cheap…or just get Steyns flat mate to tape the games on french TV and mail a CD????
But to judge the player on one game in a team that had less than one week to gel….
but then again, like most on the site, I believe there is something more going on between the two and Pdiv is just trying to justify his decision based on rugby ‘facts’….
30 Jun 2010, 15:37 pm
@willievz(willievz)-280: and JDV for that matter…
30 Jun 2010, 15:38 pm
@ mighty – henry tromp – that was an accient, it was his daughter, and not good form to bring up like that…
30 Jun 2010, 15:38 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-274: Steyn plays against some pretty good 12′s in the top 14. It is his positin of choice and his coach prefers him there too with a few games at 10.
His coach is a certain Pierre Berbizier who would know a thing or two about backline play… But you knew this anyway.
The French comp although not the same intensity of the S14 is undoubtedly the best and most intense in the NH…
Another player who performed well at 12 there is Marius Joubert for the eventual league winners… But you probably knew that too
30 Jun 2010, 15:40 pm
@willievz(willievz)-280:
CJ back in SA, BJ and Butch are both known to actively get out of European contract to come back to SA too. it has been in the media not too long ago.
CJ, BJ and Butch plays for HC teams over and above their Guiness Premiership teams (which also includes well known, experienced international opposition).
30 Jun 2010, 15:40 pm
@D0C(D0C)-284: You are thinking about Rudi Visagie – he had the unfortunate incident with his daugther.
30 Jun 2010, 15:40 pm
@D0C(D0C)-284: Did he accidently killed his daughter? Wasnt that Visagie?
30 Jun 2010, 15:40 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-281:
But why blood a new 15 when you have one that is blooded and not even at his prime yet???
To constantly be looking for the ‘next’ option to develop is also stupid/destructive
30 Jun 2010, 15:41 pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NEVER BEFORE HAVE I SEE SUCH BIASED REPORTING
Ricky single-handedly won us that game in the southern New Zealand areas where we don’t usually win. On that day we all said how we were wrong about this incredible man. He has vision that is close to FDup even if he is physically not so fit.
RICKY deserves it more than anyone else.
As for fullback…. many people will disagree and I dont care but
EARL deserves a chance. Kirchner and the rest are Super 14 at best . Only Earl has the natural test ability. Good time to develop him for world cup next year.
30 Jun 2010, 15:42 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-279: JdJ did not play well for Munster – ask a Munster supporting Irishman. Most were pretty disappointed with him…
How does JdJ get experience then…? He also has performed well in the tests that he has played in so far this year…
WO is a case of partnership issues with Mossie I would venture…
30 Jun 2010, 15:43 pm
Grant, could you clarify something for me:
1) The Boks have tried three guys at fullback in an attempt to find an alternative to Steyn. You argue that this is too many and shows confusion.
2) The Boks have tried one guy at scrumhalf in an attempt to find a replacement for du Preez. You argue that this is too few, and doesn’t give other players a chance to prove themselves.
Are we to take it, then, that next time one of our starters gets injured, you will support de Villiers enthusiastically if he tries precisely two alternatives?
30 Jun 2010, 15:43 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-285: dont agree. too subjective to say its the best. intense yes. i went to parc-de-princess to watch a stade francais game once, they are extremely intense about their rugby.
apart from the top 3 teams i dont think its that great. Just remember the state o f John Smit and Victor when they came back from France. Took them a while to get back to top form.
30 Jun 2010, 15:44 pm
@Faust(Faust)-282:
The national coach clearly stated his policy on selection and those of foreign based player from day 1. Steyn knew this when he made his choice.
So quite frankly, no, it is not the coach’s job considering that.
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-285:
Yup, yup and yup.
Top 14 however is very limited in structure and intensity. Frans was even quoted as saying there is no pressure on them on trying things even if they lose…
It is a different culture than Bok rugby and the intensity of Super 14 alltogether.
30 Jun 2010, 15:44 pm
@D0C(D0C)-284: Who was that flanker that John Williams selected for his Bok side. I think he may have been an even bigger disaster than Owen Nkumane….
30 Jun 2010, 15:45 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-286: There are more to his exclusion, and I think it is more to do with attitude than rugby ability.
You know that, and I know that.
Both Smit and Matfield played in France before the 2008 3N. They returned, and did look off par in the first test in NZ. However, Matfield was instrumental in that Dunedin win.
The Boks had the ideal opportunity to give Steyn game time before the 3N.
So why exclude him from the squad altogether?
30 Jun 2010, 15:46 pm
@Faust(Faust)-289:
Well I think that has been answered given the form argument and league he plays in, as-well as the fact of PDV’s policy on foreign based players.
All Blacks are forced to blood a tighthead test prop now, because Hayman is playing in Europe.
Nothing wrong with it.
Steyn knew the conditions when he left.
30 Jun 2010, 15:46 pm
All players returning from injury would look off par initially.
If Juan Smith returns in the home leg of the 3N, he will look off par in the first test.
But he will regain his form.
Form is temporary, class is permanent.
30 Jun 2010, 15:47 pm
#247. Moedeloos – Just because PDV is good with most of the players it doesn’t change that he’s got attitude against Steyn – that’s all me, Eddie Jones and Tackler are saying. If you don’t agree with it you’re entitled to your opinion but mine is set in stone on this matter. I suspect a clash of two huge egos is at the root of it.
And you’ve said nothing to make me change my mind.
Incidentally, Steyn has the makings of a great 15 – at 12 he’s wasted – personal opinion. Also – regarding NH performance look up google and pull down “Francois Steyn drop goals” – nobody on the planet can do what that guy does from his own half with a boot. Nobody. The man is a prodigy and he should be harnessed.
30 Jun 2010, 15:48 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-295: Piet Pretorius, or Botha Rossouw? Take your pick. Neither got a test cap.
30 Jun 2010, 15:48 pm
@willievz(willievz)-296:
Well didn’t you just answer that (if that is the case)?
There is more to this than rugby reasons.
So exactly whose responsibility is it to sort that out?
Who needs to come to the party?
Luke Watson was readied to be dragged out for a public stoning wrt his attitude towards the Boks and Bok rugby.
If his attitude is the problem, I suggest Frans fixes it.
30 Jun 2010, 15:48 pm
Anycase gents got to run.
Ciao.
30 Jun 2010, 15:49 pm
@willievz(willievz)-298: Exactly good point . Like JP Pietersen who is always perfect.
30 Jun 2010, 15:50 pm
@willievz(willievz)-296: i am with you there. If Ricky is playing himself fit Frans could also have done the same. I think there are deeper issues as well.
Frans needs to do what he has to to get PDV on his side again. Unfortunately there are rugby reasons that is keeping him out as well.
That being said, we will not lose the TN because of him not being there.
30 Jun 2010, 15:50 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-294: The fluidity is a good thing in terms of backline player development I would think… (Most fluid backline being the ABs.) Also the encouragement to try new things is also a plus for the development of a young player like Steyn – put it this way – he is learning how to see the game in a whole new way over there.
Some, not all, T14 games were pretty intense last season. The crowd support for many of the clubs is fantastic.
30 Jun 2010, 15:51 pm
did I read that some nutjob wrote that “Earl Rose deserves a chance at fullback”?
based on what?
…that the rest are s14 material only?
surely this can’t be for real?
earl rose, at best…is an amateur rugby player who should not be earning a paypacket based on his showings.
30 Jun 2010, 15:52 pm
@gecko(gecko)-300: Neither of those two flankers played in a test on the ’93 tour.
But those were shocking selections.
30 Jun 2010, 15:53 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-294:
He kinda killed it when selecting overseas players for 2010 tri-nations?????
He is the national coach – not god….yes he has a lot of say, but in the end he is still responsible for put the best team on the field (restrictions taken into cosnsideration) – even if he does not select overseas players – knowing that potential greats are playing overseas -s taying in touch with these players to see if they are ready to head home?? maybe not a requirement, but would definitely make my list of differences between a good and great coach!
PS – don’t get me wrong here, I think P Div has performed very well, and has caused a lot of people (present company included) to eat hiumble pie!!!!
30 Jun 2010, 15:54 pm
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-293: It is relative…
However there is no doubting the higher intensity of S14.
The T14 is a very good comp – I enjoy it whether watching on the box or live. I have watched more than a couple in France myself…
30 Jun 2010, 15:55 pm
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-306: I’m the one who said that. And I said it would be a controvershal thing to say. But he has been badly and unfairly treeted. He is truly international class. Forget the Super 14. He only plays well if you have faith in him . Look at the end of year games last year in Europe. he was our best player in at least 2 games. No other backline player IN MY OPINION is as naturally gifted and have so much potential.
30 Jun 2010, 15:56 pm
@willievz(willievz)-307: So was Andries Truscott
30 Jun 2010, 15:56 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-299: not most of the players. Thus far all the players except Fransie.
I agree that there are issues there. But do you expect the coach to grovel to a player when for rugby reasons currently he is not in good form. the same player who took the money over the chance to play for the boks. Carl hayman did the same, you dont see NZ journos moaning about the coach not selecting him.
30 Jun 2010, 15:57 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-297:
No offence, but Fark the kiwis, them doing it is not a pointer to something being OK? Any country with this mentality is stupid by me, but the whole overseas selection policy is a different argument.
Talking about the Kiwis – no problem in getting king carter back ASAP when it was required though?????
30 Jun 2010, 15:59 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-301:
What exactly is the issue?
(a) Is it Steyn leaving in the first place for greener pastures?
If so, I see James, CJ and co getting selected for the Boks despite the PDV stance on foreign players.
(b) Is it Steyn performing in a less demanding league?
If so, I can make the argument that he will be even fresher than his peers, and a few matches at the highest level will allow him to reach optimal match fitness.
(c) Did Steyn publicly state that he is not available for the Boks?
I cannot recall that, only that PDV has not been in touch with him at all since he left. However, I agree that his handling of the situation was appalling.
But there are two sides to the coin.
30 Jun 2010, 16:00 pm
@gecko(gecko)-311: And the other hooker, Harry Roberts?
30 Jun 2010, 16:00 pm
@gecko(gecko)-300: Botha Rossouw, thats the guy… Fark me, I have never seen such a left field pick as that…
30 Jun 2010, 16:13 pm
@willievz(willievz)-315: Yes, but when it came to the test matches, they picked Willie Hills. A prop. Who was Bok prop again 1st few games in 1993.
30 Jun 2010, 16:18 pm
312. Moedeloos -
Yes, coach should not grovel – and the only thing that has not been mentioned is if, as a player, he is bad for team morale – in which case it doesn’t matter who you are, you shouldn’t be there.
Personally I think it is straight-up ego clash … I was overjoyed when he opened up the selection to the full pool of players at our disposal – but with Frans he’s got an issue – and to answer your question: should Frans have to grovel?
PDV has said the agent is the issue … maybe, but whatever it is, they both need to sort it out pronto because his talent is only one of a kind and we need it, specifically for World Cup in NZ, where the AB’s will be on fire to win; his talent is freakish and too big to throw away – the size of Dan Carter’s in fact.
30 Jun 2010, 16:25 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-318: i agree with everything you say except the last line.
You cannot compare Carter to Steyn. If you compared FDP i would agree. For all the good Frans does, he does stupid things on the field as well. I think the media blows up the talent, freak, prodigy line up too much when it comes to Fransie.
That said, I would pick him as the best 15 we have at our disposal. I dont mind him not playing the TN. We will not lose because of him.
30 Jun 2010, 16:25 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-316: What about Philip Schutte? And Deon Lotter. Or, tour wise, FA Meiring, Jannie Claasens, Lance Sherrell.
30 Jun 2010, 16:33 pm
@gecko(gecko)-317: We played Heinrich Rogers, Uli Schmidt and Lood Muller.
Johan Styger came off the bench against NZ and played a stormer.
30 Jun 2010, 16:37 pm
@willievz(willievz)-321: Willie – not on the 1992 Year End tour. Lood Muller wasn’t picked, and Uli didn’t tour. That is where Truscott/Roberts where the hookers, but didn’t play the tests.
30 Jun 2010, 16:42 pm
Eddie Jones is dead right. What are we doing to ourselves? This is delusional.
PDV is not up to the job of Head Coach. Period.
30 Jun 2010, 16:43 pm
@willievz(willievz)-321: Btw, Johan Styger a successful dentist in Surrey.
30 Jun 2010, 16:49 pm
#319. Moedeloos – That is my whole point – he has got the talent of Carter, just different but it hasn’t been fully harnessed or remotely developed. That’s the point.
At fly-half he is a DISASTER waiting to happen. That is where he has made his ****-ups.
At centre he’s pretty good – but it is such a limited niche position in relative terms to FH or FB or SH.
Francois Steyn burst onto the Springbok scene about 4-5 years ago in a December tour to northern hemisphere and played fullback for the whole tour. At fullback he had THE TIME TO MAKE HIS PLAY AND THAT IS WHY IT IS HIS BEST POSITION. He was ELECTRIC and the answer to our problems.
In typical Springbok management ****-around mentality it took several years, in fact until the Lions tour last year to get back into that position – while they experimented everywhere but the obvious.
But he is a born fullback – uncanny positional play and anticipation, like rock under the high ball, courageous, physical, can run beautiful lines and that MOTHER BOOT which is good for clearance of +50 metres a hit, not to mention the gravy – those drop goals. And he can do the one thing Percy and Andre and Ian Robertson couldn’t do and the first requirment of every fullback – he can TACKLE. His big-match temperament in test matches for long-distance kicking is immaculate – and he proved it to PDV in Auckland last year with 3/3 from north of halfway, in Auckland at sea level with a wet ball in a TEST MATCH against the All Blacks and because of that we won the game and the Tri-nations. Also you will recall that in the win in House of Pain the year before it was him, cool as ice, who converted the winning points in injury time.
And then genius drops him and the cocking around starts all over again … and we’re back to square one.
Once again – he is not as good as Carter (yet) and he’s a totally different type of player to him, obviously – but his POTENTIAL is freakish and he could be if he had a coach with vision to develop it … which we haven’t got, quite the contrary, and that is the point I am trying to make – IT IS NOT WHAT HE IS, WHICH IS AMAZING, BUT WHAT HE COULD BE …. and nobody else in the squad has got that type or level of potential.
30 Jun 2010, 16:51 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-325: Actually, he played wing the first test, with Bevin Fortuin at fullback.
30 Jun 2010, 16:57 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-325:
absolutely the post of the day….by a country ile….i echo those sentiments 100 %…..
well said young man!
30 Jun 2010, 16:57 pm
country mile
30 Jun 2010, 16:57 pm
@gecko(gecko)-322: Yes you are right. Didn’t Willie Hills play 2 the tests, with Keith Andrews the 3?
30 Jun 2010, 17:00 pm
@willievz(willievz)-329: Andrews only played against England. Styger & Rodgers against France, Styger & Andrews vs England.
30 Jun 2010, 17:01 pm
@gecko(gecko)-324: Why I didn’t google this in the first place I don’t know…
Test 177 – France vs. SA
Fra (0) 15 vs SA (13) 20, Lyon, 1992/10/17
France: tries Penaud (2); conv Penaud?; pen Penaud?.
South Africa: Tries Danie Gerber, James Small; conv Naas Botha (2); pen Botha; drop goal Botha.
SA team: Hugh Reece-Edwards, Jacques Olivier, Pieter Muller, Danie Gerber, James Small, Naas Botha (c), Garth Wright; Johan Styger, Willie Hills, Heinrich Rogers, Wahl Bartmann, Adri Geldenhuys, Adolf Malan, Adriaan Richter, Tiaan Strauss.
Test 178 – France vs. SA
Fra (6) 29 vs SA (6) 16, Paris, 1992/10/24
France: tries Roumat, Penaud; conv Lacroix (2); pen Lacroix (5).
South Africa: try Danie Gerber; conv Naas Botha; pen Botha (3).
SA team: Hugh Reece-Edwards, Jacques Olivier, Pieter Muller, Danie Gerber, James Small, Naas Botha (c), Garth Wright; Johan Styger, Willie Hills, Heinrich Rogers, Wahl Bartmann, Adri Geldenhuys, Adolf Malan, Adriaan Richter, Tiaan Strauss.
Test 179 – England vs. SA
Eng (11) 33 vs SA (16) 16, Twickenham, 1992/11/14
England: tries Underwood, Guscott, Morris, Carling; conv Webb (2); pen Webb (3).
South Africa: try Tiaan Strauss; conv Naas Botha; pen Botha (2); drop goal Botha.
SA team: Theo van Rensburg, Jacques Olivier, Pieter Muller, Danie Gerber, James Small, Naas Botha (c), Garth Wright; Johan Styger, Willie Hills, Keith Andrews, Tiaan Strauss, Drikus Hattingh, Adolf Malan, FC Smit, Adriaan Richter.
30 Jun 2010, 17:02 pm
@willievz(willievz)-331: Bit sad I know this in my head isn’t it.
30 Jun 2010, 17:02 pm
That FC Smit selection against England was also very random.
I remember the drop goal of Naas at Twickenham – poor ball from Wright, Naas dribbling back with his back facing the opposition, then kicking an extraordinary 3-pointer.
30 Jun 2010, 17:03 pm
@gecko(gecko)-332: You clearly live for the game
30 Jun 2010, 17:03 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-325: good post. would be relevant if he thinks his best position is 15. he thinks he is a 12.
what do you do?
lets see how it unfolds. Like i said earlier. The truth will surface in the future. And hopefully we can be man-enough to admit if we backed the wrong horse.
30 Jun 2010, 17:05 pm
FC Smit/Brian Baenhoff – can’t think of one without the other.
30 Jun 2010, 17:08 pm
#327 and #330 Thanks Grant and Gecko (an interesting point but actually right wing is second best position) …
The other thing Steyn does at FB – if the other side kick for posts on penalty and miss, he gathers, and SPRINTS to the edge of the 25yd line and then hoofs the thing right back into their 25 – in the words of Tackler, my new found friend, the guy is like “a nuclear weapon” …
and hasn’t even made our top 28 … what a farce.
30 Jun 2010, 17:09 pm
Sorry – to follow #337 – and finds touch as well ….
30 Jun 2010, 17:09 pm
@gecko(gecko)-320: Nico Wegner from Maties…
30 Jun 2010, 17:11 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-337: The guy needs rest. PLaying non-stop since Jan ’09. Best he has his break now, and come back EOYT or next year having had some rest. He had a deal with Snor to have a break and has to be back at Racing mid TN.
30 Jun 2010, 17:12 pm
@willievz(willievz)-339: I’m from WP, that selection was fine. haha
30 Jun 2010, 17:14 pm
#340 – Gecko – rest I can go with all the way – “dropped”, or even worse, “discarded” I can’t …
30 Jun 2010, 17:16 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-342: No where Snor said he was dropped (he had a deal only to play Wales, then not again), or discarded. Or rested for that matter.
30 Jun 2010, 17:17 pm
I’m off. Summer in Wales, time for a post-work surf.
@Willie – die ander kant van die coin: players that should have had Bok colours: Ettienne Botha and Simon Berridge to name but two.
30 Jun 2010, 17:27 pm
@gecko(gecko)-343: interesting. why is there no media coverage if this was the case.
or did we all fall victim to the tripe and agendas of the so-called journos on this site? (sad face)
30 Jun 2010, 17:37 pm
@gecko(gecko)-344: Jeremy Thomson.
30 Jun 2010, 18:11 pm
Naas… what a legend!
30 Jun 2010, 18:17 pm
@willievz(willievz)-346: Toured with the Boks. Played mid-week games.
30 Jun 2010, 18:18 pm
@J.B. Cowper(J.B. Cowper)-325: Steyn is a good 15, but you have it wrong. 13 is where he could achieve greatness.
To be a fearless tackler is not the main pre-requisite of a FB, rather positional ability, calmness under pressure and ability to clear the ball. Ability to conter-attack in a flash is a characteristic of great fullbacks. I really believe Aplon has all of these attributes and he is no defensive slouch either.
12 is where Steyn can come into his own. Firstly he seems to prefer it there. He has good defensive skills. His big boot is a huge bonus and can take pressure off M Steyn. Look at the kicking armoury of 9, 10, 12 – FdP, MS, FS… farksake – those would be a siege gun or siege relieving combination – options abound.
His ability to make passes out of a tackle are really slightly freakish, however he did have a tendency to be selfish. As player who has played flyhalf he has good distribution skills (at least as good as any 12 in world rugby at the moment with the exception of Jauzion who is probably the benchmark 12 in World rugby at present).
He has good vision for taking the gap and does run decent lines. At 12 he has that split second of extra time that he does not have at 10 – which makes all the difference at elite level.
The real skill he has to develop is being aware in “D” – not just for himself but for the whole backline. He needs to be able to marshall the “D”. At the moment for the Boks, this role is taken by Mossie.
All in all to me he could be a bigger version of Tim Horan, with a slight tinge of Walter Little – however with a bigger boot. He is quite a similar player to Michael Du Plessis (who also could play 10) but with more ability…
He also is getting great exposure in a different Rugby Culture where he is learning some new tricks of the trade and a different way of playing the game. He also has played a WC final at 12.
All this before he has reached his mid 20′s….
30 Jun 2010, 18:19 pm
@gecko(gecko)-348: Craig Jamieson.
30 Jun 2010, 18:42 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-350: Good call. With Tony Watson
30 Jun 2010, 18:53 pm
@gecko(gecko)-351: Yup, Watson before he tangled with Uli though…
30 Jun 2010, 18:56 pm
@gecko(gecko)-351: A certain Dr. Graham Hefer was quite good and would not have disgraced the no 8 position.
Am betraying my roots…
30 Jun 2010, 19:33 pm
lets hope Ghana looses by 3 on Friday night. Racist pigs
30 Jun 2010, 19:36 pm
@makethecirclesbigger(makethecirclesbigger)-354: what did they do?
30 Jun 2010, 19:42 pm
I agree that we will struggle against ABs with a sub grade scrummie and nothing solid at 15.
30 Jun 2010, 20:12 pm
@gecko(gecko)-300: @willievz(willievz)-307: @Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-316: You guys can say about Botha Rossouw what you want but in the ‘Battle of Tucuman’ he was the man that dropped four Argies and then had to help other Boks sort out their fights too…
30 Jun 2010, 21:22 pm
@gecko(gecko)-348: Yes but never tests.
30 Jun 2010, 21:50 pm
@panniepeet(panniepeet)-357: Are you sure? He only toured in ’92 to France & UK
30 Jun 2010, 22:40 pm
the reason the bulls have scored more tries this season is ……. Brrrrrrrupppp! ………. They have two white wings! Yes yes it’s true ! For the first time in a very long time a south african team has risked it to have two wit okes on the wing.!
30 Jun 2010, 23:31 pm
The only scrumhalf that I have seen play similarly to Fourie Du Preez is Ruan Snyman. He was the Bulls scrummie that took over from Heinie Adams in the league game of the 2010 S14. The bulls were taking a pasting while Adams was on, with him taking bad options anddropping balls all over the place. As soon as Ruan Snyman came on, teh momentum of teh game changed. He even has a similar pass to FdP – accurate and fast.
His technique is good in the way he positons his body, and steps into the ball, and makes a single movement to get the pass away fast, smoothly and accurately. His kicking seemd to be ok (quite good), but most of all, he chose good options consistently. Mark my words we will see more of him (I hope).
Does anybody know if he is playing in the CC?
1 Jul 2010, 00:07 am
I know that this subject has been drill into the ground, but does anyone actually know why Peter de Villiers and Frans Steyn have this great relationship.
I don’t live in SA and hear talk about it all the time but don’t know the actual reason.
All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.
1 Jul 2010, 00:10 am
@moedeloos(moedeloos)-55: I agree. Frans has made as many screw ups as he has done good things. He made spectacular stuff ups at flyhalf in Durban in 2007, just befor eteh RWC – he lost us teh game against NZ, from being ten points up with ten minutes to go.
His best position is fullback, thsi is clear, but he does not join teh line as well as Zane. the only thing he does have that is spectaular is the ability to drop kick from teh half way line. Morne can even do teh long distance place kicks nowadays. an frankly, that ability was required in 2009, because teh rules did not allow you to run the ball back without massive risk of losing teh ball. So you needed to punish clearance kicks to force the opposing team to try and run it back at you from their own half.
But now, opposing teams (read AB’s) will just run it back (as it means less risk of losing the ball) and avoid his threat. What we need now, is a fulback that is not scared to take teh ball up from a clearnace kick, to sety up another period of protracted pressure that is likely to result in a try. Those ong distance droppies are not really needed now.
1 Jul 2010, 00:48 am
PDV is unwittingly sabotaging himself, and us in the process. It is highly likely we are not going to win the Tri-Nations, nor gain a Grand Slam at the end of the year.
1 Jul 2010, 01:53 am
pdv is the man
1 Jul 2010, 02:27 am
@SjamBok(SjamBok)-363: Interesting point. I think that Frans can quite easily adapt his style by running the ball back, instead of kicking. This is not a big change. He is a strong runner. Plus we would have the benefit of his massive boot when we need it.
1 Jul 2010, 03:05 am
Francois Steyn is a test-quality full-back and only a mediocre provincial-grade midfielder.
1 Jul 2010, 03:42 am
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-367:
Disagree Tackler, he’s a test quality 12 and a WC winning won to boot!
1 Jul 2010, 03:43 am
won s/b one …hehe
1 Jul 2010, 04:28 am
The Boks have a fair chance to win this year without Styen and FdP
The Wallabies are a rubbles now, with Salesi Ma’afu Saia, Faingaa, Genia and Cooper they will lose 5 out of 6 TriNations Tests this year.
The ABs got better but again will be smashed by the Boks forwards, they failed to capitulate in 2009 on the Quota backs the Boks fielded and I doubt they will do it this year although the prospect of having Habana, Aplon, Kirshner and DeJongh in the back-line will not go unnoticed by Graham Henry, but still, their forwards aren’t up to it YET
1 Jul 2010, 04:39 am
@sglazer(sglazer)-364:
PdV follows instructions: the FB position is now pegged for a quota, either Kirshner or Jantjes, if he doesn’t understand the instructions, the ancyl will remind him,,,,
1 Jul 2010, 06:58 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-371: I hope this is not true. If it is, goodbye Springbok Rugby.
1 Jul 2010, 07:34 am
@sglazer(sglazer)-372: if you believe anything hondo says then you’re more feebleminded that one thought…
1 Jul 2010, 07:47 am
We should think of playing Jacque Fourie at fullback he was originally a fullback and has the size, skill and speed to still play there. We should then play Juan de Jonge at outside center with De Villiers at inside center.
I believe is worth a try but it should have perhaps been experimented in the Italy games not in the Tri-Nations!
1 Jul 2010, 08:43 am
@iceman(iceman)-374:
I’m pretty sure the worlds best 13 wouldn’t want to be the worlds 2nd best 15 behind Frans.
1 Jul 2010, 12:34 pm
@David(David)-375:
Jacque Fourie could also become the best fullback of all time but if don’t try it we will never know!
1 Jul 2010, 17:47 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-373: Thanks for thinking I’m feebleminded
1 Jul 2010, 17:54 pm
Having learned on the job about the importance of having a fetcher and strong props, which almost cost us last year’s season, we are now learning about the importance of having strong 9 and 15′s and stronger cover at 2.
Thankfully we have a core of world class players, while our coach (hopefully) finds his feet.
1 Jul 2010, 17:59 pm
@iceman(iceman)-376: Once a player reaches his mid-20′s he needs to specialize in one position. Look at what is happening with Ruan. It would be folly to select our world-class 13 in any other position. But then again doing this has been de-rigueur for our current selectors.
1 Jul 2010, 18:03 pm
@iceman(iceman)-376: Besides, we already have a world class 15. We just need our coach to realize this.
Have your say
You must be logged in to post a comment.