Bok fullback starts from scratch
15 Jul 2010
While Conrad Jantjes is relishing a return to the playing field, it will be some time before he returns to the Springbok fold.
On 2 May 2009, a horrific clash with Chiefs flank Liam Messam ended in tragedy for Jantjes. The Bok fullback had featured impressively on the 2008 tour to the United Kingdom and was expected to play a part in the British & Irish Lions series, but a broken leg shattered those ambitions and sidelined him for the next 14 months.
Jantjes returned to competitive rugby on 2 July in Western Province’s only warm-up game against the Griffons. A week later, he featured in the Cape side’s victory over the Cheetahs and displayed a fearless approach that suggested he was well and truly over the injury.
Speaking to keo.co.za, Jantjes said that while his confidence is returning, the past year has been a trying one from both a physical and psychological perspective. Fans may have seen that performance against the Cheetahs as the start of a comeback, but in reality, it’s taken Jantjes 14 months of toil to reach the point where he could run again.
‘It was really frustrating in the beginning of my rehab, I had to learn to crawl before I could walk,’ he recalls. ‘It was as much a mental battle as a physical one, and I’m still fighting that battle now. I never used to watch much rugby on TV because it frustrated me. I hungered to get back onto the field.’
As Jantjes suggests, the rehabilitation process isn’t yet over. Two steel pins are inserted into his leg, and his return to rugby is in fact two months ahead of schedule. He will use this year’s Currie Cup to build himself up, and this means a return to Test rugby may have to wait until 2011.
‘Everybody asks me if it’s in the back of my mind, but the truth is I can’t set myself those kinds of goals just yet. I’m grateful to be back, and people probably don’t appreciate what a major thing it is for me to be playing rugby again.
‘My confidence is returning with every game, and I’m sure my match sharpness and fitness will improve the more that I play. I didn’t really get many chances against the Griffons, but had some good touches against the Cheetahs that did my confidence good. You can’t let yourself worry about the injury, but it helps to get an early touch and settle the nerves.’
Jantjes added that the early form of this new-look WP backline has helped him readjust to the pace and intensity of the Currie Cup. Dewaldt Duvenage is the only player that started for the Stormers in the Super 14 with Peter Grant playing his rugby in Japan, Joe Pietersen defecting to France, and the rest of the backline joining the Boks’ Tri-Nations squad.
‘It’s easier for me coming back into this kind of environment. In the Super 14, the Stormers had a really strong defence and that’s been carried through to the Currie Cup. I’ve been really pleased with the way the midfield [Paul Bosch and Tim Whitehead] has come along. If you don’t have to do much tackling as a fullback, then you know your midfield is doing well.
‘Fabian Juries, Frikkie Welsh and myself have also worked well together at the back, so it’s a good start.’
Jantjes maintains that the Currie Cup will be used ‘as part of his rehabilitation’, but there is still an outside chance that he will tour with the Boks in November. Zane Kirchner hasn’t let the Boks down this season, but hasn’t really offered them anything special, and with Frans Steyn’s ongoing omission South Africa are short on fullback options a year out from the World Cup.
A strong showing in the domestic competition could provide Janjtes with a springboard to Test rugby, which in turn should provide him with a chance to prove his worth before the global tournament. For the moment, that remains the best case scenario, as Jantjes is rightly focusing on regaining his fitness one match at a time.
By Jon Cardinelli
175 Comments
15 Jul 2010, 05:21 am
Why bother??? Frans Steyn should be there!!!
15 Jul 2010, 05:21 am
Oh yes, undeserving 15 Dragon! Is that good?
15 Jul 2010, 05:36 am
Some interesting reading…I honestlythink that Smit should fall on his own sword now. His game is really not close to what a modern(or ancient!) hooker should be.
Flow will deliver, he is class. He has won the most turnovers in the S14 comp. Plus he has size and good hands. More than Brussouw can ever offer.
So much at stake for Bok pack
2010-07-14 12:21
Comment: Rob Houwing
Cape Town – So far so good … the Springbok brains trust have reacted sensibly in their tweaking of the engine room to recapture lost respect against the All Blacks at Wellington on Saturday.
The two changes to the pack (and team as a whole) were enforced ones, with faithful workhorse Danie Rossouw replacing the disgraced Bakkies Botha and Peter de Villiers and company preferring the superior brawn of CJ van der Linde to BJ Botha at tighthead, after Jannie du Plessis cried off with a calf injury.
Personally, I was happy to see a resistance to knee-jerk measures, despite the all-too-obvious Vodacom Tri-Nations trampling at Eden Park.
Wholesale changes would have given the ****-a-hoop New Zealanders a further scent of blood; a suggestion that the World Cup champions are buckling into disarray ahead of their defence of the ultimate crown.
Instead the message from the Bok camp is clear and defiant: we do trust what we’ve got – they’ve almost unanimously been there and done that, and we view Auckland as a once-off (with apologies for the questionable Latin) reversus horribilis.
But I’ll admit this much: if the South African eight see their collective posteriors all over again at the Westpac Stadium – simultaneously exposing some brittleness anew, perhaps, in backline defensive shape — then alarm bells will indeed start to ring shrilly.
So the stakes are particularly high for the Bok forwards in the immediate revenge opportunity this week, especially for certain individuals.
A key one who comes to mind, of course, is the long-time captain John Smit, closing in fast on his distinguished 100th cap but, by his own typically frank admission, failing in his quest to lead from the front at Eden Park.
He was neither explosive nor mobile enough in the hooker’s shirt – mind you, that was a problem pretty much throughout the Springbok forwards on the day – and his throwing-in turned inexplicably scratchy, too.
It has been a complicated few months for the 32-year-old: in some respects perhaps the most unsettling of his entire first-class career.
Let’s not forget that last year we were all spun the line that he was henceforth a tight-head prop and forever would be thus.
But then the plan started to wobble and he quietly got more and more game-time back in his old position – and now, purportedly, he is squarely a hooker again until he calls time on his yeoman service!
You have to feel for the man. Until earlier this year he was bulking up to the requirements of No 3; suddenly he is presumably having to undertake some “bulking down” afresh, which is generally not as easy for players at such advanced stages of their careers.
His leadership, by most accounts, is still vastly treasured within the camp but Smit is not stupid and he will be as aware as anyone that “delivery” remains essential in the No 2 jersey.
Despite Smit now out of the tight-head frame, that position remains clouded in doubt itself. Is the future Du Plessis? Van der Linde? Botha? Or is it time to expose some younger guns, like WP Nel or Brok Harris, despite clear signs that neither is quite ready for the big step up?
Saturday is a big day for Van der Linde; a chance to re-assert his credentials with the right shoulder, as well as provide timely fresh evidence that he is sprightly about the park.
This is important because they are feeling quite chipper in New Zealand about the hunger and mobility of their props generally, especially as the Franks brothers – Owen and Ben — are being lauded, according to the Waikato Times at least, for “having injected plenty of enthusiasm (to the squad), especially around the field”.
There is no reason, I think, not to feel confident that Victor Matfield and Rossouw can claw back some lost ground in the second row against Brad Thorn and Tom Donnelly – especially if Smit gets his line-out throwing mojo back.
More vexing, though, is the loose forward situation, where the Boks genuinely played second fiddle last weekend.
Let me repeat my pleasure, rightly or wrongly, in the retention of young Francois Louw.
Given the benefit of better collective go-forward, I am convinced he will atone for a poor performance at Auckland and engineer the sort of turnovers he has been effecting all year, even granted that he is not an out-and-out fetcher.
In the ongoing absence of Heinrich Brussow, let’s not forget that there is no orthodox burrower anyway in the current Bok party. (Dewald Potgieter is predominantly a blind-sider, representing a Bulls franchise where Deon Stegmann is the designated fetcher.)
Another thing about Louw: he has been badly managed this season, playing an obscene amount of Super 14 rugby and then being heavily involved in the Tests running up to the Tri-Nations.
The gap of a few weeks after the away leg of this competition for South Africa cannot come quickly enough for him and one or two others.
What of Pierre Spies? There is some chortling in the Land of the Long White Cloud, after a perception that he was taken to the cleaners by Kieran Read in the 32-12 defeat.
Wrote Dylan Cleaver in the New Zealand Herald: “(Spies) has claims to being the best in his position in the world, but Read didn’t just eclipse him, the All Black embarrassed him, charging through a laughably weak attempt at tackle to score the hosts’ third try.”
So it’s all about redemption for Spies in Wellington, a player capable of special athleticism on attack but still prone to question marks about his defensive technique and willingness.
But then isn’t that so of the entire Bok eight?
15 Jul 2010, 05:44 am
Januarie and Jantjes, with a little Zane Kirchner thrown in…
15 Jul 2010, 05:50 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-3: Spies is a fool for claiming to be the best in the world and getting better, now he looks like an arrogant *** when he gets outplayed by someone like Read who is not the best in the world.
15 Jul 2010, 05:57 am
@Waster(Waster)-5:
You are 100% correct mate. I still beleave that Duane Vermeulen is a better 8th man. Spies will be a good impact player. He really dissapears on wet heavy fields especially when the forwards are struggling.
15 Jul 2010, 06:08 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-3: Can’t even begin to compare Flouw to Brussouw.
Flouw is good and all, but has very little on Brussouw. Flouw isn’t even better than Stegmann.
15 Jul 2010, 06:14 am
6. A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)
I have not played the modern game so I am clearly not an expert on no 8 play but if your no8 is non existent is it not also a sign that the other loose forward are struggling to secure clean ball for the no 8. In other words he is not free to roam like a no.8 should i.e no space
15 Jul 2010, 06:21 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-7:
I disagree mate. If you look at the S14 stats Flow outplayed Steggmann almost 2 to 1 on all areas(turnowers, meters gained,links,passes completed…)
The jury is still out on Brussouw under the new laws. He is an out and out fetcher though, doesnt offer much more in the modern game(see George Smith and Phill Waugh’s S14 performances for similar sized players).
I have nothing against Brussouw, he will have to fight it out with Schalk-if Schalk wasnt there on saturday we would have lost by 30 points plus! He tackled like a demon(most tackles on the day) and was one of the few players that didnt have that deer in the headlights look in his eyes…
15 Jul 2010, 06:22 am
Jantjies is a very talented prospect and is welcome in the fold but he is not FrannySteyn and we should look to the future by playing Lambie. Here it comes…
So to avoid the chips, Spies needs to be rested and I would look at Vermeulen as an option in New Zealnd and the wet.
We should have Alberts on the park too!
Play playmakers please and move away from the conservative defensive mindset of old. That means no WO, SideshowBob and play Aplon and JDJ.
15 Jul 2010, 06:23 am
@kesbok(kesbok)-8:
Agree Kesbok, see post no.6 “Spies will be a good impact player. He really dissapears on wet heavy fields especially when the forwards are struggling.”
15 Jul 2010, 06:28 am
11. A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S) agreed. Lets face it he is awesome but is too upright in tackles as well as attack.
Cant even bend over to fetch. I think 2 things, keep mixing it up and horses for cousrses.
15 Jul 2010, 06:30 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-9: I don’t believe this rubbish about the “modern game”. The game currently is the same as the game was 3 years ago. Little open sides have always had a role to play in the game – Kronfield, Wilson, Smith, Pocock, Back, Poutney etc. Smith was injured for more than half the season, Pocock was fantastic, and Waugh is rubbish these days.
They can tackle just as well as big men, carry the ball just as well, are often more effective at hitting rucks and are better on the floor. The only place they might not perform is in the lineouts, and SA has 4 lineout jumpers already.
What worried me about Flouw was that I can understand that we didn’t dominate the contact point so it was difficult to steal ball, but he also didn’t make many tackles, didn’t attend many rucks, didn’t get the ball in his hands…he went missing and it was like he didn’t want to get into the game.
What you have to remember about Flouw is that he played for the team with the best defence in the Super 14 who destroyed teams at the collision. This made his job far easier. Schalk is a little too headless for my liking – would love to see Potgieter with Flouw as the two of them have really complimented each other when playing together.
15 Jul 2010, 06:32 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-10: JDJ isn’t a playmaker. The Stormers Super 14 attack was insipid. The only play making centres we have are JDV (although he has performed for a year) and Peter Grant (although he hasn’t played centre for a year).
15 Jul 2010, 06:38 am
Hi Wolfie, You will see that the AB’s actually played the fetcher(Flow)out of the game by not playing his defensive channel and playing the poor bugger off the ball.
Last year they used the same tactic on FDP trying to stop him getting to the ruck. Its kak but it works.
In one game last year I saw Maccaw break from the scrum(on AB ball) and tackle Brussouw off the ball not even near play and offsides. Smart!!!
We should be doing it to Richie like the Stormers did in the S14.
We need to pressure MCaw and Carter like seagull on a packet of slaptjips.
Pull Jersys Bokke pull them hold them back and do it form behind the rcuk to from an offsides too.
15 Jul 2010, 06:41 am
14. WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21) JDJ at wing cos Hougaard will be scrummie. I though the Stormers were pretty good with JDJ and JF.
15 Jul 2010, 06:47 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-16: THe interesting thing is that McCaw made the most metres out of the Kiwi forwards, so he has become one of their main ball runners.
JDJ and JF together didn’t make many opportunities, most of the Stormers tries were scored as a direct result of their defence – pressure, turnover etc.
I think prsesure comes from slowing down the ball, dominating the tackle, knocking them back, and sorting out our defence when they kick the ball to us. We need to drop numbers back to support Kirchner and the wingers.
15 Jul 2010, 06:50 am
@WOLFMAN21(WOLFMAN21)-14:
Finally a smart man I see here, the whole reasoning behind de Jongh playing 12 was he supposed creativity on attack, but as we saw, he never delivered. Then he gets called up for the Boks on the basis of this belief despite an entire campaign that proves the contrary.
Back to Jantjes though, if he is to play for the Boks again then he needs to seriously evolve his game. I hope time on the sidelines watching Joe Petersen doing his job well will have flicked a switch somewhere between the ears. He has potential, but never delivered in his last fling with the Boks.
15 Jul 2010, 06:51 am
I think there is a link between Australias loss in form and the break up of the terrible twins Waugh/Smith. 2 fetchers in tamdem caused chaos.
15 Jul 2010, 06:52 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-15:
100% correct mate, Flow was cleaned out big time(obviously targeted). He was also held back(I was at the game and he almost lost his cool-swinging a punch and missing). The Kiwis really played clever rugby re Flow(although it was illegal).
This was the top loosie in the S14, Man of the mach in 3 international games…the Kiwis hat a strategic plan for the guy. Brussouw wouldnt have made a difference.
15 Jul 2010, 06:57 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-6:
No other 8 would have done a better on last Saturday, Spies was mostly marked by three tacklers, like I said before, New Zealand had a way to deal with all of our options. It’s now time for the coaching team to step up to the plate and deliver something. As things stand, the basic gameplan of last year has been well snuffed, why our S14 coaches can adapt to the changes in the game, but a Bok coach can’t is beyond me.
15 Jul 2010, 06:59 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-20:
It’s hard to say regarding Brussow, because he is far more robust, athletic and incredibly strong. Added to that, he is the most intelligen flank we have. The only question is how he would adapt to the new laws, but as shown, he was getting to terms with them before his injury.
15 Jul 2010, 06:59 am
20. A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S) saw Flo try punch Mcaw after Mcaw, u guessed right, came in from the side and jumped him.
The Kiwis were smart, they knew the ref could not keep up as well as using the blanket obsrtuction at all opurtunities which flummoxes a weaker ref.
Play the man in the air, enter ruck from the side, play the ball on the ground, jump across the line.
Smart and well thoughout, not like our oompaloompas.
15 Jul 2010, 07:10 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-21:
Good point re our Springbok coaches adapting mate.
Must also say Ive lost faith in D ick after his planless S14 campaign…
15 Jul 2010, 07:13 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-23:
Lets hope it was a once off. The reason we are so dissapointed is because we expected so much of this team, especially after last year and a good S14 this year…
15 Jul 2010, 07:17 am
We do need to keep perspective though – we are currently the equivalent of New Zealand without McCaw and Carter. WIthout du Preez and Juan Smith we were always going to struggle. Its just a shame we roled over and died – showed no fight.
15 Jul 2010, 07:25 am
This game is the turning point that Jake had in 2005 when we lost hevily to Australia. How we respond will more than likely define our season. In 05 Jake removed the problems, I hope and pray that de Villiers has something in mind, because if we go out ther with the same idea, it’s not going to work, and the selections don’t encourage confidence in me at all.
15 Jul 2010, 07:27 am
OK guys, thats me out. All have a nice day!
15 Jul 2010, 07:28 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-24:
Our frag-defence on Saturday looked like the Lions defence. Which is worrying, neither Muir or de Viliers have the clout to coach at test level. Muir was propped up with a reputation that stemmed from Campese’s good work with the Sharks, and dce Villiers just plainly should never have been given the job. I’m 50/50 on Gold, but a Gert Smal he sure as hell is not.
15 Jul 2010, 07:29 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-27:
Only difference is that Jake didnt have the luxury of two SA teams in the S14 final…
Ok now really, Im out!
15 Jul 2010, 07:38 am
Adois amigos lets hope this is not the return to the bad ol daze…
15 Jul 2010, 07:38 am
You cant play Flo and Spies together. At the Bulls Stegman and Potgieter do lots of the tackling while at the Stormers Vermeulen and Burger does most of it.
Now at the Boks you have flow standing off waiting to come in and steal the ball, and you have Spies who shouldnt be tackling but should be waiting to get the turnover ball from the scrumhalf to launch a counter attack.
Someone posted the stats yesterday and Spies actually made more tackles than Flo. That is not a healthy situation. Flo should be doing what Potgieter and Juan Smith does, which is tackling the socks off the opposition at every opportunity.
He should be making far more tackles than Spies, who is there for a different primary purpose.
15 Jul 2010, 07:39 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-30:
Laters.
15 Jul 2010, 07:40 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-32:
Bang on the mark. By the way I was absolutely scurged for posting those stats, lol.
15 Jul 2010, 07:50 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-9: to me your comment on flow out playing steggman 2 – 1 on all areas is way off the mark and pretty naive, I collated the stats of the S14 showing key matchups before the final…because of comments like this…
http:// web.me. com / shaunandrews / Rugby_Stats/Home. html (copy and remove all the spaces to view)
It might also explain why Spies excels at the Bulls, where Stegmann does the hard grind (especially on forward ball) in the rucks which frees up Spies. Where at the boks, Flo is not the hard grind player that Stegmann is. In the S14 Final rucks hit by Stegmann on attack was 35 rucks to Flo’s 15…
That says alot and also explains why Spies might not be as prominent cause he is required to do more work in the rucks than he would at the bulls for instance
15 Jul 2010, 07:55 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-32: Nicely noted, something I have picked up as well and just commented on
15 Jul 2010, 07:56 am
The Boks will not win one game on tour: The Kiwi’s will play the exact same gameplan this weekend, and Pdivvy does not have the brains to do anything about it. The weaker Aussies will take a leaf from the Kiwi book, and we will come short in Brisbane as well. I hate admitting this, but we will not even win all of our home encounters. This is a good thing though, because it will force PDivvy to start focussing on WC11, and we would not have any reason to be complacent.
Somewhere Divvy needs to decide between loyalty to players and the desire to
Kommie Bokke!!!
15 Jul 2010, 08:01 am
the psychological recovery from such a severe injury can be more difficult than the physical recovery…
well done to Jantjes for getting back on the park… it really is a brave thing to do… let’s see how far he can take it… if he does make it back to the boks in time it will be a remarkable achievement. if he doesn’t make it to the boks at all, well… at least we’ll have him at WP…!
all the best to him…
15 Jul 2010, 08:02 am
Stat – Tackles Spies 15, Flo 9
Which isn’t necessarily the worst thing if Flo was hanging just off the tackle to steal the ball once the tackle is made. However when you are being pounded back at every collision you won’t get to many opportunities to steal the ball.
At the end of the day it negates Spies’s roll. We can’t have Spies and flo and burger all wanting to carry the ball forward, we need balance
15 Jul 2010, 08:11 am
@Shauny(Shauny)-39:
Back to 2008 I see. It was our presence at the rucks last year that really propelled the Boks. The pressure that Brussow put on the opposition was just far too much for them to handle, thus a stream of penalties came our way. This year, this loss, has highlight just how much the Boks have truly regressed. and still, the penny hasn’t dropped, but another loss like last Saturday and the Bok machine will drop to the deck as a corpse.
15 Jul 2010, 08:51 am
Boks need a real ‘Think Tank’. I am seriously concerned at the current ‘implosion’ and agree that the Boks will probably lose all 3 away games….
The problem starts in that we have too many passengers up front….
Seriously gents….it starts with Smit….and , sadly, Spies.
I would far rather have the hooking duties , on this tour, shared between Chilli and Gary Botha.
At 8 i would start with Dewald Potgieter.Use Spies as an impact player.
Also Jannie Du Plessis not a good enough factor in the tight loose…
As for the backs…..what a load of absoute nonsense……MS is so 1 dimensional….WO once again shown up….JDV a terrible wing…..poor as poor can be.
15 Jul 2010, 09:00 am
@grant10(grant10)-41:
Ok, so that’s your strategy.
By repeating your ill-considered point of view day after day, you think it may eventually become more acceptable?
Why not throw Luke Watson into the equation for good measure, just to stay true to form?
15 Jul 2010, 09:04 am
@grant10(grant10)-41:
The problem is less to do with the players and more to do with the coaching staff. It was clear that there was no gameplan, it was clear that defence was not worked on at all, and attack as we all no has become painfully blunt. These players dominated in the S14, these are proven (for the most part) quality players. There are no players to replace Morne, Spies etc with. And even though Jean is on the wing, and Januarie is there, this team still has enough quality to do much better. The coaching trio are failing to do their jobs, they went into this TNs totally unprepared. And the problem is not that Smit is a passenger, but that he had to bulk up and spend time away from his best position. We need him badly, it’s something we are just going to have to deal with in the short term to benefit in the long term, you can thank de Villiers for this. You say that Morne and Olivier are useless, but they were lethal in a Bulls side that scored the most tries in the competition. The problem is that our coaching team has no answer for the new laws and New Zealand made us pay for that, they made sure they did their homework on us and were prepared. de Villiers and his two stooges were again caught with their pants down. The warning signs were there on the eOYT, but they failed to learn, they’ve failed to adapt and learn from what our S14 coaches have done this year. There can be no excuses. Now watch as they back peddle and struggle to come up with a solution. Last year we had Plumtree work with the Boks on their breakdown issues, and he was the one who recommended Brussow. He isn’t therre to wipe the coaching teams backsides now.
15 Jul 2010, 09:05 am
yeah… i always feel i’m waiting for Spies to really explode onto the world stage… he has never fulfilled the obvious potential there or the high expectations of the (mostly) Bulls fans… watched him in the U19 WC against France and he was awesome… but IMO has never shown the same domination at senior level…
he’s the kind of guy who should dominate the collision – when carrying the ball up or tackling their ball carriers… but somehow he seldom seems to knock guys back in the tackle and all too often gets knocked back by even smaller guys when they tackle him… for all his size and strength he just doesn’t seem to be the most physical guy around…
not to be too harsh on him… but sometimes i get the feeling that he doesn’t share a close relationship with that good friend of Bakkies – pain!
only time he gets up to speed is when the try-line is open. he never gets up to speed going into contact.
15 Jul 2010, 09:08 am
@A.D.I.D.A.S(A.D.I.D.A.S)-1: absolutely right. Steynkie is the best Snoortjie is the dumbest
15 Jul 2010, 09:08 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-42: with Brussow not there at 6, and Steggmann somehow out the mix, Luke as an out and out Fetcher may not be a poor idea>??
Why would Lukes presence offend you so?
However, with what we have on tour currently….my loose trio would be
8 dewalt
7 schalk
6 flo
I would also go with Ruan P at 9 and B James at 10….
JDV back to 12 and Aplon to 14.
Chilliboy to hooker
Matfield to lead.
I would send Smit home……tell him to get into shape and show his worth in CC….if he proves he can play consider plod for EOYT….
But we know it wont happen.
The ‘FAT BOYS CLUB’ non merit team set up doesent work with any logic…..we prefer to carry the dead weights.
15 Jul 2010, 09:09 am
would be frikken sweet if the boks could win this one.
I said it before and I’ll say it again….Flo just is not that good.
granted the 5 got nailed last weekend so the backrowers were always going to look dodgy.
but as a test calibre opensider he isn’t nearly the factor that skalk was when he was playing the role or brussow was.
I’d far prefer stegman where you just know that you are going to get a very busy effort all afternoon.
15 Jul 2010, 09:10 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-43: I do agree that the Boks brain trust are poor.And that includes the Captain….who by lots of opinion is vetting everything anyway.
15 Jul 2010, 09:11 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-10: add frans hougard as replacemnt for january (absolut necessity)
15 Jul 2010, 09:11 am
@ufo(ufo)-44:
He’s got a great hand off, which is his greatest weapon in close contact.
However, due to his athleticism he doesn’t have the kind of thick waist and massive hips that you would see on say Anton Leonard or Rudolf Strauli.
That makes him easier to bring down if you take him around the legs.
But in exchange for that, you get heaps of extra pace.
15 Jul 2010, 09:12 am
@ufo(ufo)-44: iu also love Spies in space…..but space aint there for the first 55 minutes of a close test…as we know.
Bring him on with half hour to go….
He looks more and more like a wing playing 8 man…
15 Jul 2010, 09:15 am
morne steyn is one dimensional…lol
man o man, one loss in auckland where the kiwis haven’t lost in 25 odd years and the most dominant fly half that SA has produced since Naas should get the chop.
Grant 10 you are a lekker oke but when it comes to selection policy you’re almost as bad as Skopskiet.
15 Jul 2010, 09:15 am
@grant10(grant10)-46:
I rate Potgieter very highly. I think he is an awesome rugby talent. But he is an awesome rugby talent stuck in a body that isn’t quite up there with the biggest guys in the world.
He is too small for an international no.8, in my view. He fits in well in this age where smaller flankers have suddenly made a comeback. But look at all of our other successful no.8′s. Rossouw, Vermeulen, Spies, Alberts, Frans Viljoen/Ashley Johnson.
Potgieter doesn’t fill that role at international level.
Even at the Bulls, the next guy in line is Van Velze, who maybe doesn’t have Potgieter’s raw talent and rugby brain (at least not yet), but once again has a size advantage over him.
Potgieter has the talent, but lacks the size. But at flank he can more than hold his own. That’s where his future lies.
15 Jul 2010, 09:16 am
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-16:hougard for no. 9
15 Jul 2010, 09:17 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-50: He cannot be carried in the hope of a ‘moment of magic’…..
It pains me to say ….as i believe a in flite spies is a joy to behold.
We need hardened scrappers……Smit physically just cannot do it…..i said months ago he is in a type of ‘twilight zone’….the intent is there but the body just cannot anymore.
Now we carrying Smit and Spies…?
Cmon….not going to work….Spies has 7 hungry players at Bulls to accomodate the athlets…..he does not have that luxury at the Boks.
15 Jul 2010, 09:17 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-52:
That represents my view of Grant’s latest campaign almost verbatim.
15 Jul 2010, 09:17 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-52: steyn was handicapped by his no 9
15 Jul 2010, 09:21 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-52: MS has been awful on last years EOYT as well!!
And seems to save his best for the Bulls….i know it is an adjustment with a new 9 but MS is taking the ball far too deep and asking no questions of the opposing defence….watch again this week….
Butch hits the advantage line straight away as he is physical and relishes the contact….MS not so.
I would play Ruan with Butch as Ruan has the better pole kicking boot…..of course if the brains trust had f steyn there it would be perfect.
15 Jul 2010, 09:21 am
@ufo(ufo)-44:
Hi UFO
I watched the game yesterday focussing on Spies and was horrified at his poor work rate, refusal to put his body on the line and his total passionless display.
At times he was jogging from ruck to ruck……really a poor effort.
he is not doing what is expected of a No 8, I do not buy into this “specific” role that he has for the Boks a ccording to the likes of Tac, if he cannot do the basics of a 8 he must go.
Once the home leg of the 3 n’s is here I would like to see Juan , Duane and Flo as a combination with Schalk providing cover from the bench !!
Spies can play against the likes of Italy, Samoa , USA etc… where he can be a front foot bully !!
15 Jul 2010, 09:21 am
Ruan for Ricky @ 9
Jdv for WO @ 12
Hougaard for Jdv @ 14
Juan Smith for Flo @ 7
Pdiv needs to make these changes and all problems will be solved!
15 Jul 2010, 09:22 am
@Brigadier Van Zyl(Brigadier Van Zyl)-52: and thanks….nice to know 1 oke thinks i am a lekker oke…
15 Jul 2010, 09:23 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-50:
sure Tac… we all know he’s fast… and the try he scored against France in the U10 world cup was a thing of beauty… it really was… and i get your point about the hips etc… but you guys are always telling us how strong and physical he is… but i just don’t see it at test level and not too often at Bulls level either…
maybe Heyneke is correct… maybe they should play him on the wing… that would maybe make the best use of his obvious talents…
@grant10(grant10)-51:
just saw your comment and have just said the same thing to Tac…
15 Jul 2010, 09:25 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-53: out of all the loosies in SA …..i rate that Dewald is probably the best prospective 8 we have….he is not that small ….a brilliant back of lineout jumper…[ better than spies imo ] …tactically the most intelligent, runs better lines, a debastating tackler…and a work ethic 2 nd to no one. He also links brilliantly. In fact i would go as far to say ven the bulls should play spies at flank as opposed to Dewalt….Dewalt is a very special player imo.
15 Jul 2010, 09:27 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-53:
Aitken, Tiaan Strauss were not big but were great 8′s…….a No 8 must have may skills and be able to read the game well, must be a thinker and have great hands, this is why so many 8′s are also captains.
But you know this !!
Spies falls way short of these skills/abilities !!
15 Jul 2010, 09:27 am
You guys are barking up the wrong tree.
Spies, Morne Steyn etc. They’re not the problem.
But enjoy the mutual hot air you are blowing up each other’s arses.
It won’t get you anywhere.
15 Jul 2010, 09:30 am
@grant10(grant10)-58:
the entire side was **** at the end of last year…morne was the boks most accomplished player in my opinion in the years early season games.
ricky doesn’t help a helofalot to anyones cause.
15 Jul 2010, 09:31 am
For me, Spies just doesn’t have the mentality of a forward which is not surprising considering his background.
His sheer athleticism makes up for it against lesser opposition but when there a requirement for the bloody-minded, mongrel aggression required to dominate collisions, he just doesn’t have it.
I’ve been hoping that it was something he’d develop over time but it doesn’t seem to be happening and his flaws were never more obvious than on Saturday.
It might be an over-simplified solution but this guy needs to get ANGRY and BELLIGERENT!!
15 Jul 2010, 09:31 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-59:
hi JR… how you been…?
yeah… i think all supporters should measure all players by the same standards… i do admire spies as an athlete… but as i said i find my waiting… indeed hoping… nearly every time he touches the ball for him to do a Jonah Lomu and run through all 15 men on the other team… but it just doesn’t happen…
Tacitus…
having just mentioned (and thought of) Jonah Lomu… he had the narrow hips of a sprinter but could still burst through and over players… that is just what i keep hoping Spies will be and do…
and i’m not trying to knock the guy… i would really love to see him becoming, and being recognised as, the best No8 in the world.
15 Jul 2010, 09:32 am
nice to know that the kiwis have made more changes than the boks for this test.
15 Jul 2010, 09:34 am
All this Brussow talk is absolute nonsense. You guys are deifying him based on one (superb) springbok season. That was under a different set of interpretations which specifically played to his strengths, ie, tackling and attacking the ball at the same time.
The only “fetchers” of any relevance this year is Steggies and Flo. We all have our favourites and will defend our positions with our lives, reardless. But to assume that Heinrich is the second coming and without him we will be wondering around in the wilderness is naiive. He has to came back and prove himself. He may be a yard slower like many players after injury, he may not be as well suited to the new interpretations and may be unable to adapt. We won’t know until he is tested. If he’s up to the job and gets back to the form that saw him one of the key influencers in our successful campaign in the first half of the international season last year i’ll be at the front to the queue to congratulate and cheer for him.
Until then it’s a moot point. You guys sounded like the desperate Kiwis of a few weeks back who were looking to Sonny Bill Williams to single handedly save them from another looming World Cup failure. Turns out they are doing fine without him becasue the basics are there. Same with us. If we get our basics right, it won’t matter that we do’;t have an in-form Heinrich. The guys we have can do the job, they just have to get out and do it!!!
15 Jul 2010, 09:35 am
@grant10(grant10)-63:
You may be getting carried away just a tad. But if it makes you happy, go for it.
15 Jul 2010, 09:36 am
@grant10(grant10)-58:
Morne hardly had the ball!! And a fly half has to deepen his alignment when receiving slow ball, that’s common sense. When were the Boks ever on the front foot? When did he ever receive quality possession from 9? And where was Olivier? He had no options! Januarie was in possession 63 times, the flyhalf received the ball about 18 times from him (the other times Steyn received the ball from someone else when Ricky was not in position). What did Januarie do the other 45 times? Well I saw him make a lot of 2m passes to the static forwards next to him. I saw him make two kicks that turned over possession that led to two tries.
15 Jul 2010, 09:36 am
Hey this thread is about Jantjes dammit!
15 Jul 2010, 09:37 am
@grant10(grant10)-58: MS did not have the best season for the Bulls either.
I rate players by comparing them to the best there is. MS does not make the grade when you compare him with Carter, Giteau, Wilkinson (at his best), Cooper etc. He does not have the ability to put his backline away into gaps and create space on the outside. He does not have the footwork to beat opponents other than tight forwards and he does not have the pace off the mark to hit gaps.
I agree with your assessment that he plays too deep and does not commit defenders to himself in his channel. This is what creates space for players on the outside.
As for Butch, he may play on the advantage line pretty well, but he does not have the pace and the footwork to beat opponents.
Morne Steyn is the best flyhalf that we have available because, in spite of everything that he lacks, he brings more to the game than Butch.
Morne has to stand up and take control of the game because he can do it. He needs to put the ball behind Rokocoko and into touch. He needs to alternate between kicking for touch and releasing the high bomb.
We can do it
15 Jul 2010, 09:38 am
Article frin Rugby365.com:
“The Blue Bulls Rugby Union has signed promising wing Hayden Groepes on a four-month contract for the 2010 Currie Cup season.
Groepes, who joined the Blue Bulls two weeks ago on loan from Boland, enjoyed a successful start to his trial with the Currie Cup champions by scoring in a pre-season friendly against the Eastern Province Kings and made such a good impression on the coaching staff that he was offered a more lengthy stay.
The 22-year-old wing, who played for the SA Under-19 team in 2006, before being hampered by an injury, played for the Western Province Under-19 and Under-21 sides, as well as for the Western Province senior team in the Vodacom Cup.
He was also a star performer for the victorious Maties side in the 2009 and 2010 Varsity Cup competitions.
Groepes’ signature comes a week after the BBRU signed promising Western Province scrumhalf Dustin Jinka and the two players ironically played at Under-19 and Under-21 level together in Cape Town.”
Nice to see the whole “home grown talent” thing working so well at the Bulls….
15 Jul 2010, 09:39 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-70:
Brussow had been the best fetcher for three consecutive seasons, and backed up his credentials by destroying every quality opponent in the world at test level. You have no basis for that argument. Stats and performances prove you ar wrong. He was the only reason why the Boks didn’t flop like 08. All those penalties came from pressure he was exerting, all those turnovers totally sapped New zealand and Australia. McCaw was brutally outdone in three consecutive tests, just like he was outdone by brussow at Super level. Brussow has consistenty that reflects his pedigree. he is our best player for that position hands down.
15 Jul 2010, 09:41 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-74:
With the exception of Cooper, Morne outplayed all of those players at Super rugby level, and was let down badly by his team mates on Saturday. Your acumen is questionable.
15 Jul 2010, 09:42 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-73:
No one cares about Jantjes. Never have.
He wasn’t even better than Thinus Delport when he out-quota’d him out of the Bok team.
He was never the best fullback in SA.
He isn’t even the best fullback in the Western Cape.
Good luck to him and I wish him a speedy recovery, but at his best “Two step, left jinx, go into contact, lose the ball-Jantjes was nothing more than average.
OK, now that the Jantjes isssue is addressed, let’s get back to the main discussion point.
15 Jul 2010, 09:42 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-72: Ah crumbs, you just reminded me of all the things that has to be rectified this coming Saturday. I suddenly lost all hope…
15 Jul 2010, 09:44 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-73:
PA I tried to bring it back to him but… horse/water…???
15 Jul 2010, 09:44 am
Put Bismark, Brussouw, Juan Smith, Pierre Spies, Fourie du Preez and Morne Steyn together in the same team and you’ll see fireworks again.
But while we have to suffer with a fatter than ever John Smit, the puny Jannie du Plessis, two sub par flanks and the worst international scrumhalf in the world, our other stars are going to be under pressure all the time.
15 Jul 2010, 09:47 am
A sadly overlooked aspect of the current team is that Schalk Burger wasn’t even one of our top flanks in the S14, and there was a big debate about whether he would even make the team.
Now, with the rookie Flo on the other flank, we are left with hoping that Burger will somehow steer the ship through rough waters in the collisions, on the defense and at the breakdown point.
This while he shouldn’t even be in the starting line up.
Our best flanker pairing of Smith and Brussouw is in a different league to the current Stormers pair.
Hell, the Bulls pair of Potgieter and Stegman are also better than them, and compliment Pierre Spies far better as well.
15 Jul 2010, 09:48 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-74: What are you smoking?
Morne Steyn scored 5 tries in the Super 14
The same amount as Quade Cooper, Giteau and Carter each scored 1.
Sure enough Quade Coopers was more flashy and exciting.
And you say he does not put his backline away and create opportunities out wide but WO scored 5 as well.
His outside backs scored 7 for Houg and 8 for Shadow!
They were among the top tries scorers of the tournament and the Bulls scored the most tries in the Super 14.
He was also the top points scorer of all the Super rugby tournaments so far.
Go talk k.ak somewhere else!
15 Jul 2010, 09:49 am
@grant10(grant10)-63: I agree. Spies at 7, Dewald at 8. Spies is more of a ball carrier than an 8th man.
But then I’ve been saying this for some time now. Spies=Juan Smith=Burger. They all do basically the same job, but with Spies being a better runner and Burger being better at the rough stuff. Juan the perfect balance between the 2.
Potgieter, Vermeulen, Kanko. (insert Joe Van Niekerk there somewhere). In that order.
All those people (Tacitus included) who are blinded by the inmpressive physique, amazing 40m sprint times and immense bench press achievements in the gym. The game is not played there and they forget that when the chips are down, you are either up to the challenge or not. Pierre all to often isn’t.
You can’t simply excuse his lack of brilliance in the closer, tighter games by saying “everyone looked bad”. The fact is, your experienced players like Pierre need to distinguish themselves in those games specifically because they are supposed to be the senior members. (look at Parisse)A guy like Schalk for example. Gave his all on Saturday, and looked up to the fight.
The only thing Pierre looked up to was the sky hoping and praying that it will all end soon.
15 Jul 2010, 09:50 am
@Falken(Falken)-83:
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
15 Jul 2010, 09:50 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-82:
Again you are bang on the mark. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
15 Jul 2010, 09:51 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-82:
“Our best flanker pairing of Smith and Brussouw is in a different league to the current Stormers pair.”
but they aren’t or haven’t been available…
15 Jul 2010, 09:51 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-77: Come on, just take your head out of the ******* that is in for one moment. We are talking about test rugby my mate.
WO outplayed everyone in S14 – is he the best centre in the 3N?
Carter was returning from injury and hit his form against Wales in the tests preceding the 3N. He was nowhere near his best in the S14.
Giteau did not have a great season either, but the alarming fact is that Cooper will play against us in that position, and by your own admission, he outplayed Morne in the S14.
Sing his praises as much as you like, he is limited as a flyhalf when compared to the best that was and is. It is not his fault, he is the product of the way we play rugby in this country where the best front foot balls go to the forwards standing in the backline and the slow, dodgy balls are reserved for the flyhalf to kick away aimlessly.
15 Jul 2010, 09:54 am
spies at 8 can work if Juan Smith, Brussow and Bissy there….i concede that happily.
But …..
1 they are not there
2 neither is bakkies…..and
3 we are carrying plod….
so wat die fark maak ons nou >???
15 Jul 2010, 09:55 am
@Falken(Falken)-83: Are you referring to the same WO who is utterly useless at test level?
Do you guys seriously believe that Morne Steyn is up there with Carter, Giteau and Wilkinson as far as talent goes?
Do you really believe he is the complete flyhalf?
15 Jul 2010, 09:57 am
Since when is O R I F I C E not allowed?
15 Jul 2010, 09:57 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-76: You need to go back to my post and really read it again. I am speaking about Brussow’s international season (ther was only 1) and labled it as superb. So in fact you are basically agreeing with my statement there then I assume?
What I am disputing, and there is plenty of basis for this, is that all too often players come back from MAJOR injury a little less than before, slower, having lost the edge. Heinrich still has to prove that he’s up to the job when he gets back. Until he does, he’s irrelevant in terms of talking about who should be in the Springbok team. He also has to prove that his MAIN value for the Springbok team as a turnover specialist will still be there. And you’ve just proved my point by quoting superlatives about how amazing he is forgetting that at the moment he is about as useful to Springbok Rugby as Fourie du Preez is.
15 Jul 2010, 09:58 am
@grant10(grant10)-89:
Bismarck? You mean the penalty machine? Everyone went nuts over bakkies, but Bismarck has been consistently the least disciplined player for the Boks since Krige. He regularly does the most rediculous things. Like choke one of the Lions whilst standing NEXT to the ref!! He gets punished for it, but then throws a tantrum (as he always does) once penalised. We don’t need this liability in the team. he wasn’t much of a force last year anyway, his breakdown prowess is vastly overstated, and was a flop for the Sharks this year.
15 Jul 2010, 09:58 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-82:
What a load of c rap , this rubbish that players have to compliment the overhyped Spies is just horse sh it !!!
Schalk has to work his *** off do do most of Spies’s work because Spies has so many limitations, Flo to compensate for Spies going awol also cannot do what he needs to do.
As a unit for the Strormers they were excellent all season because they played with an eigthman (Vermuelen), who did not shirk his duties, Spies is a liaibilty !!
15 Jul 2010, 09:59 am
Okay so here we have Morne Steyn…
Forgetting his Super 14 records and only looking at his Bok career (which only started in 2009) we have a flyhalf that:
Scored a total of 204 points in only 16 tests at an average of just under 13 points per match. The Boks average against the top nations since 1992 is only 23 points per match…
He has scored 5 drop goals in test matches.
Has scored 4 tries.
Has scored 107 points (one of only 8 players to score over 100 points in Tri-Nations) in only 7 matches Tri-nations matches at an average of 15 points a match.
Scored all of the Boks points in Durban against the All Blacks a year ago, 31.
Butch James:
Has played 38 tests and scored a total of 146 points which included only 3 tries and 1 drop goal (little variation) at an average of just under 4 points per test match…
Spot the difference…
15 Jul 2010, 10:02 am
@grant10(grant10)-89:
Wat maak ons nou?
We bring in Potgieter at flank in place of Louw. We bring in Stegman in place of Burger.
We bring in Rossouw in place of Bakkies.
We bring Flip in on the bench in place of Bekker.
We bring in Gary Botha and Liebenber in place of SMit and Chilliboy.
We put Burger on the bench.
In short, we beef up our physicality and breakdown effectiveness with the best players available, and beef up our bench to have a real impact in the second half.
Thighthead we’re in sh*t anyway, so we might as well try cannot-bind-to-save-his-life-CJ, as he is at least a bit better in the loose that Du Plessis.
So the team will look as follows:
Gurhtro
Gary Botha
CJ vd Linde
Victor
Rossouw
Stegman
Potgieter
Spies
On the bench we will have:
Beast
Tiaan Liebenberg
Flip vd Merwe
Schalk Burger
That will get us parity in the physical contest (at least) and then it is all systems go.
To make use of this parity, we need to get rid of January in the backline, and get Francois Hougaard in somewhere.
That is the quick, short term solution to our current dilemma, until the likes of Bismark, Smith, Brussouw and du Preez are back.
15 Jul 2010, 10:03 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-90: Stats dont lie my man!
Sure enough WO is not up their at test level. But your comment referred to the Super 14 so dont change now that you are proven wrong.
MS dominated the Super 14 and thats a fact.
Imo Carter is the best. Wilkinson is always injured and Giteau is to inconsistent.
MS is just getting better and better.
15 Jul 2010, 10:03 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-94:
It is a fact that when selecting your loose trio you have to build a unit. They must all compliment each other. It’s a delicate balancing act that de Villierss has mostly gotten wrong when left to his own devices. We will lose mostly because the balance and tactics are not there. Like how we are missing tackle support to play to the new laws? New Zealand killed us in that department, were they had organization and units, we went in as single players, but were hopelessly beaten at the breakdown thusly. But the God that is de Villiers hasn’t twigged yet. Thus we ar in for another 2008.
15 Jul 2010, 10:04 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-94:
Except when this wonderful Stormers unit was dominated by guess who, Spies and his buddies…
15 Jul 2010, 10:04 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-82: Yeah I am sure that Potgieter and Stegmann compliment Spies better than anyone else. I can just hear it now:
“O, Pierre, jy het sulke mooi oë”
“O, Pierre, jy het sulke groot biceps”
“O, Pierre, jy is so vinnig”
“O, Pierre, jy het sulke smal heupe”
Excuse me, need to wipe the puke from my keyboard.
15 Jul 2010, 10:06 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-100:
15 Jul 2010, 10:06 am
cheers all.
15 Jul 2010, 10:07 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-94: I’m with you on that one, for the Bulls Steggies and Potgieter did the same sort of job as Schalk/Potties. If you have to have a Spies (and i’m not convinced you always do). you need to play other players around him.
Smacks a bit of putting the cart before the horse…
15 Jul 2010, 10:07 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-95: But you need to consider that Monty was doing most of the kicking when James was flyhalf
15 Jul 2010, 10:07 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-100:
compliment = complement. So shoot me for typing a bit too fast in my eagerness to point out the folly of your arguments.
15 Jul 2010, 10:08 am
@Falken(Falken)-97: I do not read anything in my post @ 74 referring to the S14. That is why I included Wilkinson. Maybe my inclusion of Cooper was the thing that confused you. So please, my man, before you want to argue with the adults, learn to read and stop arguing with the voices in your own head before you want to comment.
15 Jul 2010, 10:09 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-96: to be totally frank….
i like it and feel thats a lot better than the team we will see on Sat….
Although Chilliboy in place of liebenberg .
15 Jul 2010, 10:10 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-100: fark boet….that was moer funny….i havent spilt my tea for a while….but did then!
cheers
15 Jul 2010, 10:11 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-99:
Spies has not delivered in the big tests, admit it and stop trying to vindicate his weakness by trying to deflect the blame onto the Province loosies .
Spies looks good on the Out surance adverts, perhaps his future lies in TV, at least he does not have to tackle !!!
15 Jul 2010, 10:11 am
@WestAussieBok(WestAussieBok)-104:
26 of his 38 tests were played with Percy or during the time Percy played (from 2004 to 2008).
Butch James did not play any rugby for the Boks in 2004 or 2005 and only came in midway through 2006.
15 Jul 2010, 10:16 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-106: “MS did not have the best season for the Bulls either.”
That was the first line of your comment.
Thus referring to Super 14
So now that you have been proved wrong by the stats (see comments 83 and 95) dont try and swing the debate somewhere else.
Admit your wrong or prove that you are not.
But i will take your comments with a pinch of salt seeing that you are not the brightest spark around.
15 Jul 2010, 10:16 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-99: It’s a pity that we aren’t playing the Stormers this weekend then, but rather the All-Blacks, which as you know is filled with New Zealand Rugby Players, who, by the way, were beaten every time this season by the Stormers, in contrast to the Blue Bulls who guess what, lost to them this year.
So by that argument, the team should be filled with Stormers, who have a 100% record against the Kiwis this year, as apposed to Bulls players (who don’t)??
See how you reasoning is all to often flawed by the “We beat you guys to all our players must be better” fallacy???
Getting it yet? Didn’t think so.
15 Jul 2010, 10:18 am
sorry, should read “we beat you guys so all our players must be better” fallacy..
15 Jul 2010, 10:19 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-112:
good point bud… very good point…!!
15 Jul 2010, 10:20 am
Ok but he was rarely the first choice kicker in the tests he played.
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the purpose of your original post but I took it that you were using points scored to demonstrate that Morne was more influential/better than James.
If so, it’s not an accurate reflection when you consider that kicking was not a Butch James strength and he did not have an opportunity to kick for poles as often.
Otherwise, by that logic Henry Honiball would be considered a poor flyhalf.
15 Jul 2010, 10:22 am
@WestAussieBok(WestAussieBok)-115: Sorry, response to Pissant #110.
15 Jul 2010, 10:23 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-112:
I’m not gonna bother responding to that ridiculous point.
Going by your logic, we should then pick zero Stormers against the Aussies, as you guys lost to the Brumbies, Reds and the Force.
You put up a straw man argument, pretending that it is my point of view, and then disprove that argument, claiming to have proved me wrong.
Poor reasoning skills there, young man.
Fact is, the Louw Burger combination isn’t working for the Boks.
Ironically, in the studio before the game, Marshall pointed out to Skinstad that he felt a weakness for the Boks was that they didn’t have a out and out Brussouw/Mccaw type of fetcher to do the damage at the breakdowns.
True’s Bob, Louw didn’t steal a single ball at the breakdown during the entire game.
And he didn’t make a lot of tackles either. He also didn’t have a single ball carry that I can remember.
So that begs the question: What exactly did he do for 80 minutes, other than hang around, waiting for a loose ball which never came?
That’s not the job of a no.7 flank, not when you are occupying the position vacated by Juan Smith, and when you have Dewald Potgieter waiting in the wings.
15 Jul 2010, 10:24 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-109: Lay off Spies; He is the 8th man in SA with something “special” as he himself has mentioned in the article in SA rugby mag. H3e is also regarded as one of the best no. 8′s in the world by many pundits.
15 Jul 2010, 10:25 am
@ufo(ufo)-114: Thanks boet, but unfortunately it’s likely to fall on deaf ears…..pearls before swine and all that….
15 Jul 2010, 10:30 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-117:
And Spies was just full of fire and brimstone, working his socks off trying to assist ??
15 Jul 2010, 10:33 am
@John1976(John1976)-118:
Go watch Sat’s game again my friend……if that’s the best 8th man in the world then there must be a lot of c rap 8′s around because he was diabolical, !!! and i will say it as I see it !!
If he was good I would give him the credit…….but he was shite !!
15 Jul 2010, 10:34 am
@WestAussieBok(WestAussieBok)-115:
Fair enough…
But then on what basis do we measure Butch’s value ahead of that of Morne in the current setup?
Because from what I read – some okes suggests Butch is a better option at 10 than Morne and I would like to know how they make that deduction?
15 Jul 2010, 10:38 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-120:
IT
IS
NOT
HIS
JOB
to make more tackles than the flanks, or to win turnovers.
This is not the Rassie school of rugby, where each loose forward can interchange with each of the others, where Luke Watson or Schalk Brits can pack down at number 8, and where the 8thman has the same job as the fetcher.
This is the real world. Where the flanks need to do their job properly for the primary ball carrier to do what he was intended to do.
Why pick a player like Spies if you aren’t going to use him primarily as a ball carrier? That’s like picking Os du Randt to assist with the tactical kicking.
Use a player according to his strengths, otherwise you are wasting him.
It is called specialization, and is originally an economic concept, where you can produce much more, and do it much more efficiently, if each guy sticks to what he is good at, instead of having to be a generalist covering multiple functions.
Once Spies is forced to commit to the breakdown, you have lost the primary function he is there to fulfill in the first place.
It really should not be so difficult to get you to grasp this.
15 Jul 2010, 10:39 am
@Falken(Falken)-111: OK, let me give you a little lesson in punctuation. You will see that the first comment referred to Grant’s comment that Steyn is good for the Bulls, but not always so good for the Boks.
Then there is a space – indicating a new paragraph and a new line of thought.
I apologize if I am confusing you.
So, to clarify things, I would like to ask you one question:
“Do you think Morne Steyn is the best flyhalf in the world at present?”
15 Jul 2010, 10:43 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-124:
He is the best flyhalf in South Africa, at present. That is all the info we need for decision making purposes.
15 Jul 2010, 10:44 am
you guys are gonna give tacci a heart attack saying spies did not play well
15 Jul 2010, 10:45 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-123: OK, Spies was poor because his loose forward buddies did not do their work. Is this what you are saying?
Louw did not get one steal in the game and not one ball carry. Therefore Spies was poor.
But, if the flanks were not complementing him, what do the flanks need from other team members to be effective, or do they perform in isolation?
15 Jul 2010, 10:46 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-123:
Come on Tac, you know better than that. Spies is only good with ball in hand when he has a bit of space. A test 8 needs to do a bit more than that, to justify his place.
15 Jul 2010, 10:46 am
@justrugby(justrugby)-121:I was only joking.
I agree he was diabolical in last weekend’s clash. I personally think that he is “show pony” pretending to be a rugby forward. He attempted tackles actually also reminded me of the way Rose was defending in this year’s S14 competition.
15 Jul 2010, 10:47 am
World Cup squad i would take:
15 Conrad Janjtes
14 JP Pietersen
13 Jaque Fourie
12 Jean De Villiers
11 Bryan Habana
10 Morne Steyn
9 Fourie Du Preez
8 Pierre Spies
7 Juan Smith
6 Schalk Burger
5 Victor Matfield
4 Danie Russouw
3 BJ Botha
2 John Smit
1 Tendai Mtawarira
16 Bismark Du Plessis
17 CJ Van Der Linde
18 Andries Bekker
19 Francois Louw
20 Ricky Januarie
21 Wynand Olivier
22 Gio Aplon
23 Tiaan Liebenberg
24 Guthro Steenkamp
25 Bakkies Botha
26 Heindrich Brussouw
27 Francois Hougaard
28 Peter Grant
29 Juan De Jongh
30 Zane Kirchner / Louis Ludik
15 Jul 2010, 10:47 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-125: That is exactly what I said, and I will say it again, Morne Steyn is the best flyhalf in the country by a mile
15 Jul 2010, 10:47 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-117: LOL for someone who wasn’t going to bother responding you certainly had a lot to say. It’s not surprising that you are not getting the point. You are the one constantly trying to promote the idea of an almost all Blue Bulls team, based on the fact that “we won the Super 14, we beat the Strormers so our players must be better” etc. etc. etc. You’ll notice that my argument is obviously failed, and that was the point.
“Going by your logic, we should then pick zero Stormers against the Aussies, as you guys lost to the Brumbies, Reds and the Force”. That’s my point. It doesn’t make sense, any more than “the stormers lost to the Bulls therefore the Bulls loose trio is the better one against the NZ’ers”. Sorry, that’s the error in logic that you seem to have, not me.
I was using it to illustrate that you have a constant bias based on the erroneous assupmtion that because a team is the champion team, that all the players in that team are by extension better than the other available players, which the rest of the country seems to get, but which the Blue Bulls supporters seem to miss, and if they do get it, their posts certainly often fail to convey this.
You know as well as I that rugby is an intricate balance of 15 (22) players working together in a very sophisticated system that relies on people fulfilling roles and supporting other players in their roles. If one facet is struggling, it is likely that the rest will struggle too. The whole system failed on saturday, leading to most players looking below par. Pierre is one of those that constantly seem to be left wanting in critical situations like this, and yes, I expect him to perform better than Flo, he’s the senior player and must lead by example. Same for Victor and JS.
15 Jul 2010, 10:50 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-122:
I certainly agree that Morne is more influential and a better option than Butch overall. It was just the use of “points scored” as an argument to prove it that didn’t mesh.
Ultimately, they are completely different types of players so to argue who is best on an individual basis would be fruitless.
To me, the way to value the player can only be done within a team context and on that front, it can only be Morne. He suits the Bok game plan (kick/chase, territorial etc…) perfectly, he’s the only recognised kicker in the team and his partnership with Du Preez (obviously not relevant this year) makes for the most effective combination.
15 Jul 2010, 10:51 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-117: No Tac, that is excellent reasoning skills
15 Jul 2010, 10:51 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-123:
Then it would be good if he does actually carry the ball up, it is surley his job to tackle ?? or is this just the other 14 role, it is surely his job to drop back and cover??, it is surely his job to make cover tackles , it is surely his job to control the ball at the back of the scrums ?
He is an 8th man FFS, not just a ball carrier , but he does not even do this effectively, often going to ground a the slightest contact !!!
15 Jul 2010, 10:51 am
@WestAussieBok(WestAussieBok)-133:
I am a fan of Butch back in the squad make no mistake. Morne simply offers more as a 10 at the moment.
15 Jul 2010, 10:54 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-123: Ok so if the game plan is not working and the tight five are getting a hammering as they were on Saturday, is it then Pierre’s job to just stand back and wait untill he gets good go forward ball so he can run it up?? (It’s not my job to tackle) Or does he have to adapt, get stuck in and help support the primary ball stealer when the others are not up to the job??
Your reasoning is akin to the Naas Botha “I’m not here to tackle” reasoning, which doesn’t surprise me, with you preferring to be be defined by history and not the present an all… The problem is that Pierre is no Naas, and no one in modern rugby will ever be allowed to be a “Naas” again. The game has evolved beyond specialists, just as economics has. This isn’t Adam Smith’s division of labour anymore boet. The concept relates to manufaturing and unless you live in China, that no longer works.
15 Jul 2010, 10:55 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-132:
Again, you raise a supposed position that I have taken which is not the case. And you claim my ACTUAL position as yours.
Poor attempt.
I do NOT advocate all Bulls to be in the Bok team.
I DO advocate that specialists be chosen who complement one another’s styel of play.
The current Bok pack does not offer that synergy.
My suggestions are based on which players WOULD function well together, not which province they come from.
The fact that most of them DO come from the Bulls, is maybe not so astonishing as you make out, given that they have proven highly effective together – being champions of the Southern Hemisphere and all.
15 Jul 2010, 10:56 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-132:
Dont worry im sure in Francois Louw was a bulls player he would be a certainty in the starting 15 and the same goes to JDV at 12, oh and also burger should apparently be replaced by steggman? haahaha, NO.
This raises the question why are there so many people who want the national side to involve as many of their franchises players as possible?
And also that after one test against the All Blacks who at the moment along with the wallabies when they bring their best are the only team in the world capable of beating the boks, there is too much unrest after just one loss.
15 Jul 2010, 10:57 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-137:
Don’t know where you learned your economics. Must be in the same place you learned your rugby.
Die kroeg agter Nuweland se spoorweg paviljoen.
15 Jul 2010, 11:00 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-136: Absolutely. And I think that is PDV’s reason for bringing him in. He’s recognised that our bench has been one of our weaknesses so there’s certainly an attraction to having an experienced, world cup winner sitting on our bench who can cover flyhalf and centre.
15 Jul 2010, 11:02 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-124: Thanks for the lesson.
Ok so lets say you did not mention anything about Super 14. My bad then but his stats prove your comments wrong at any level be it Super 14 or Test level.
“He does not have the ability to put his backline away into gaps and create space on the outside. He does not have the footwork to beat opponents other than tight forwards and he does not have the pace off the mark to hit gaps.”
All i wanted to do was show you that this part of your comment was way off line.
I would not go as far as saying he is the best in the world. With Dan Carter around that will never happen.
So if this is the point you are trying to make i take back what i said!
15 Jul 2010, 11:02 am
@WestAussieBok(WestAussieBok)-141:
The bench isn’t the weakness, it’s his inability to use it! And when he does load the bench with non-entities, he alone is to blame for that. He keeps shooting himself in the foot.
15 Jul 2010, 11:04 am
Can I now play in the 8th man debate?
Flyhalf one is boring…
15 Jul 2010, 11:05 am
@Rhys7(Rhys7)-139:
You have a short memory there was the same unrest around here during the Tri Nations campaigns of 05/06/07/08. When the Ab’s get 50% of the ball they usually beat the Bokke, last year we had no lineout so the pickings were very easy for the Bokke. If we get parity in the lineout on Saturday we will win again as our backs are far more creative, score more tries per match and don’t rely on intercepts.
15 Jul 2010, 11:10 am
@Falken(Falken)-142: Falken, I must apologize for my little rant. It was not aimed at you, more to do with my utter frustration at the inept showing of the Boks on Saturday.
I had a little time to reflect on all the debates that are going on here regarding Spies, Flo, WO, MS, Januarie, JDV, JS et al. It would be grossly unfair of us to judge any of them on the showing they gave on Saturday because they were all very poor.
Maybe there is method to PDV’s selection of the same team excepting the enforced changes. A better performance by all and sundry will make it easier to judge and if we lose again this Saturday, he will be in a better position to judge who the players are that do not deserve to be there.
15 Jul 2010, 11:15 am
@Tacitus(Tacitus)-140: Mate, I have a degree in economics from the University of Stellenbosch, and am quite secure in my post in that regard. Perhaps you could be more specific as to my errors? Is it because I fail to see the relevance of the concept of division of labour and it’s benefits to your assertion that Pierre is a specialist? Boet everyone is a specialist, just like the scrumhalf’s job is to clear the ruck and pass the ball to the backline, but that doesn;t mean he mustn’t get stuck into all the other facets of play.
As for you refuting my assertion, then fine, however i think that if you did a quick survey around here and asked all the other bloggers, they would certainly echo my sentiments. If that isn’t what you believe then fine, but it’s certainly what your posts all too often imply.
15 Jul 2010, 11:16 am
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-136: although i agree it also depends on the game plan PA , and who you are playing
horses for courses
fact is in the super 14 morne was **** in NZ and aussie , yet shone when back home
that is also a factor one must take into account
15 Jul 2010, 11:18 am
@Alucard(Alucard)-143: That’s true. But I think Butch’s inclusion is part of his plan to address that. At least if he’s still stuffing up the timing of his substitutions, we can hope a more experienced player will help maintain momentum.
Whether it’ll work out or not is yet to be seen. It reminds me a little of Jake White bringing back Andre Snyman shortly before the 2007 WC. It would have been brilliant to have someone of his calibre and experience at the WC but he was not the same player anymore and the experiment was dropped.
Hopefully Butch can make a contribution.
15 Jul 2010, 11:23 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-147: And by the way I learned my rugby at the same place. The largest Rugby club in the world and the holder of more club championship titles than any other club in SA. That must mean that all our players are better than any other club players then
15 Jul 2010, 11:26 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-150: Wait I’m not finished. I assume you learned your rugby in an armchair in the Eastern Cape dressed in a pale blue safari suit with a blue miners helmet with horns on it??
Ok now I’m finished.
15 Jul 2010, 11:28 am
@GI POT(GI POT)-146: Haha no problems mate! It seems we all suffer a bit!
I for one am not going to blame the poor performance of individuals on that of others not doing their job. Let me give you my opinion.
Bakkies farked up big time.
When he went of it gave NZ the momentum they needed to dominate us up front which resulted in a poor performance by the tight five except for Guthro and Victor(in the loose his lineout work was not up to scratch). Schalk played his normal game but Flo and Spies did not pitch for the game.
If you go look at the stats on ruggastats you can see that their tight 5 dominated the breakdown together with Richie.
We would never have won in a million years even if FDP played.
The fact is no one played good so to single out certain players is not fair.
I think Pdiv misses half the game because from high up in the box he cant see past his Snor.
15 Jul 2010, 11:37 am
@Falken(Falken)-152: Good post. I posted in the week before the game that the match would turn on two or three crucial incidents, either way. Bakkies was incident no 1, and we struggled to recover from that. Before that All Black surge we actually looked in control of the game. How quickly things changed. And yes, FLO had a bad game too. I’m more inclined to forgive him though because he’s comparitively new to Springbok rugby. Pierre needs to fron t up not just when things are going his way, but also when things aren’t.
15 Jul 2010, 11:44 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-153:
What will happen if you lose on Saturday, there has been so much hype about this team it will be very hard mentally. If they lose on Sat and don’t get a bonus pt the Tri Nations is probably gone.
15 Jul 2010, 11:49 am
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-154: I think you’re right.
15 Jul 2010, 11:55 am
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-153: Yes the Spies situation is a bit more debatable!
I think the fact that he is so huge and athletic everyone expects him to dominate all areas of the game and when he does not live up to expectation everyone calls for his head.
To me he is not such a big problem in the team. The combinations and selections that Pdiv makes is the problem.
15 Jul 2010, 11:56 am
Here is my simple view on the Bok nr8 and the breakdown (from second phase onwards, the play from set piece is quite different):
If you are going to play Bismarck at hooker, who has appropriate breakdown skills, you can get away with playing Spies at 8. Spies does add value in the collisions if players are held in the tackle, but not much when a ruck forms.
If you are going to play Smit at hooker, with less breakdown skills, you need an additional loose forward with breakdown skills since Smit will rather force the collsion to ground instead of contesting the static ball on the deck. In this case, it makes more sense to employ an additional deck player at nr8.
15 Jul 2010, 12:17 pm
157
willievz(willievz) Makes sense. On the front foot he is lethal but one of the only few chinks he has is fetching! He does fetch too upright. We were really dominating until bakkies lost it.157
15 Jul 2010, 12:27 pm
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-158: Of course, the overall objective of ruck play is not to win back the ball, but to slow the offensive phase play of the opposition and forcing them into mistakes.
Breakdown skills are of course not limited to ‘fetching’.
Playing to the ball is but one aspect of the breakdown. You need cleaners at the rucks and you need to counter prospective attacking points around the ruck.
The trick is to balance your resources and their skills sets at a specific ruck, and to organise a mix of players with similar skills sets around an area where you envision the following point of breakdown. A chessgame if you like.
15 Jul 2010, 12:32 pm
@willievz(willievz)-159: Good points all. I like how you get into the actual technical aspects of the position and the merits and disadvantages of the various players’ skill sets. As you say it’s about how it all fits together that counts. Changes in one area will affect how others are allowed to play.
When you take all of this into account, it really is a fine balancing act that has to be gotten right, week after week, against varied opposrition with their own styles of play and strengths and weaknesses, and without taking into account forced changes through injury and loss of form..
Not sure I’d want the job quite frankly. Much safer to be an armchair critic.
15 Jul 2010, 12:34 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-154:
boks will lose on saturday.
but loosing 2 from 6 is not quite kissing the cup goodbye.
watching such a talent pool fluff it is hard. been watching my whole life how AB’s hurt us cause they are better but cant say the same is true now. Boks on Paper no1. bloody come to the party already
15 Jul 2010, 12:45 pm
@mainland(mainland)-161:
Your right, its not quite kissing it goodbye but a bonus point win on Saturday for the Ab’s would be extremely hard to come back from as I don’t see the Bokke scoring 4 tries against NZ in SA this year. The Bokke on paper and on the paddock were far better than NZ mid last year but since the end of year slam and our opening tests against the NH the gap has closed. If we win again on Saturday NZ will justifiably be the number 1 side in the world, do you agree?
15 Jul 2010, 13:03 pm
@NZINCHINA(NZINCHINA)-162:
If you guys win with 4 tries and 15 points again then nobody will dispute your no1 ranking.
If you beat us by only 3 point margin you still have a fight on your hands
15 Jul 2010, 13:39 pm
Conrad Jantjes …blah, blah, blah. Back to his best…blah, blah, blah. How is it that we have all these useless never-beens, and the media keeps on blowing them up? Get real, there are many other more usefull players to give some airtime to.
15 Jul 2010, 13:41 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-147:
I think that is the fundamental problem with Tac’s argument. He is constantly defending Spies by implying that he shouldn’t have to do certain things so that he can concentrate on other things (his strengths).
When we then analyse a match where Spies has underperformed the blame then goes to others because they apparently didn’t do their jobs effectively which was why Spies couldn’t do his. They’re all part of the same forward pack! It’s almost so theoretical that it’s unrealistic.
I don’t think in today’s International game, with such tight winning/losing margins that any player can get away with that type of leeway.
15 Jul 2010, 13:50 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-165: Yeah, everyone must tackle, evryone must clear out a ruck if they are there and they have the opportunity, all must turn the ball over if allowed. Jaques Fourie is a good example of a player who is not scared to put pressure on the tackled player to turn the ball over, and WO is a good example of a guy who uses his bulk to hit the odd ruck.
Some bloggers here are so blinded by their love of certain players that they think that the whole team playes just for them
No one is that good, especially Pierre.
15 Jul 2010, 14:42 pm
spies
played ****
on
saturday
but
when compared
to
the rest
of the
front eight
never mind
their position
he was
better than
du plessis
smit
flo
and
at least
as good as
vic
guthro
burger
lets forget
bakkies
15 Jul 2010, 15:11 pm
@Porra the Fat and Clever Speedster(Porra)-167: you really should change your nic to porra the skinny poster…..
15 Jul 2010, 15:14 pm
@Porra the Fat and Clever Speedster(Porra)-167:
as a self
proclaimed fat
porra you
too may
feel at
home in
the ‘FAT BOYS
Club’….
also Known
as the
bokke !
15 Jul 2010, 15:16 pm
@grant10(grant10)-169: No porra’s in the side are there? Don’t they all play soccer?? Like the reason that they lost is because everytime they get a corner they open up a cafe??
15 Jul 2010, 15:23 pm
@stormersboy(stormersboy)-170: LOL…..
15 Jul 2010, 15:37 pm
@Porra the Fat and Clever Speedster(Porra)-167:
Your brain
is as vrot
as your veggies !!!!
15 Jul 2010, 16:15 pm
Good to see CJ back.
15 Jul 2010, 16:33 pm
Butch james was never a test match winner, in fact…for most of his career he was more of a liability the way refs kept a sharp eye on his tackling technique.
I fancy the Boks this weekend.
They’ll be far more physical and positive. They will want to put down a marker after last weekend. Wellington has also been a far happier hunting ground for s14 sa teams than auckland ever was. I definately believe this plays a role much the same as Ellis Park plays it’s role for the Boks regardless of how kak the Lions are.
Januarie holds the key for me. We’ll win our fair share this weekend at the breakdown but what will he do with it? Can he pick our big ball carriers running into space much the same as Fourie always appears to or will it all be to mundane shovelling it off to his right shoulder or waiting until Morne has to drop deep to receive it.
Will our set piece get sorted, another absolutely non-negotiable point.
Our top 2 sides played very positive rugby in the S14 this past season if a coaching setup wants to utilize superrugby form there is little point deviating to far from what was succesful for them just 2 months ago.
Stay and play positive, this doesn’t mean be expansive willy nilly but look to score tries via your backs when the team get’s good front foot ball.
This has always worried the Kiwis, they don’t like SA teams that get physical upfront but play positive at the back.
Madibas birthday on sunday isn’t it?
just in case the boys need a top of inspiration.
15 Jul 2010, 17:03 pm
@Ig(Ig)-173: Good to see you back as well Ig. Keeping a low profile?
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