Learning from past lashings
28 Jul 2010
JON CARDINELLI says that for the Boks to move forward, they have to look back at the successes and failures of 2006.
The Springboks have three weeks to reflect on what was their worst Australasian tour in four years. Only the three heavy defeats of 2006 (the 49-0 thrashing in Brisbane, the 35-17 hiding in Wellington and the 20-18 disappointment in Sydney) rank higher in the Tri-Nations’ Hall of Shame. Peter de Villiers said he doesn’t know where they went so wrong, a frightening admission one year out from a World Cup.
But talk of replacing De Villiers is pointless. The player-driven system is no secret, but the reality is De Villiers and his assistants are contracted until the end of the 2011 World Cup. If Saru fires them now, they’ll be paying them win bonuses even if the Boks defend their title under a new set of coaches.
Springbok rugby needs to make do with what it’s got, and if De Villiers, Gary Gold and Dick Muir are going to spend these three weeks wisely, they’ll be doing some research. Former Bok assistant coach Allister Coetzee has already compared the two campaigns, and suggested all is not lost. The big question is, will De Villiers take heed of history?
Jake White’s Boks finished last in the 2006 Tri-Nations and went on to lose two out of three on their end-of-year tour. The Sanzar tournament was lost on the away leg, but the Boks saved some face with two late wins. White then took a number of youngsters to Ireland and England, leaving several senior statesmen in South Africa to rest ahead of the 2007 Super 14.
The Boks lost 32-16 in Dublin and blew a half-time lead in the first Test at Twickenham to lose 23-21. They broke the Twickenham curse a week later when Andre Pretorius kicked four drop goals in the 25-14 win, a victory that began South Africa’s dominance over England in the build up to the 2007 World Cup.
While that was important, the value of playing youngsters and leaving the senior guys at home to rest was evident. Frans Steyn emerged as an important figure on the tour, and in 2007, the Sharks and Bulls contested the Super 14 final. South Africa rode the momentum into the World Cup.
De Villiers needs to keep this in mind when planning for the remaining games of the Tri-Nations and the subsequent Grand Slam tour. Playing his best available players and preventing the embarrassment of losing at home is imperative. It will also ensure they prevent a 3-0 drubbing at the hands of either the All Blacks or Australia, which would be a massive psychological blow before a World Cup year.
Following the conclusion of this tournament, De Villiers must decide on who to rest and who to take to the United Kingdom and Europe. Fourie du Preez and Andries Bekker have already been ruled out with injury, and the latter blow may suggest Victor Matfield should tour. But judging by the amount of rugby the 33-year-old has endured this year, and the adverse effect it’s had on his performance, it would be best to give him time to recuperate.
Persisting with the youngsters and alternative combinations should be the objective on the Grand Slam tour. The World Cup is the priority, and if defending their title means risking a few defeats on the Grand Slam tour, then so be it.
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368 Comments
28 Jul 2010, 11:12 am
Ag dragons – we will win alal home games.
28 Jul 2010, 11:12 am
alal = all
28 Jul 2010, 11:20 am
Take Juandre Kruger. He knows the condition and the opposition well.
28 Jul 2010, 11:23 am
apparently last year robbie deans and graham henry lost to a springbok team COACHED by players
why do they still have jobs then?
28 Jul 2010, 11:27 am
Our current state indicates that we will NOT achieve the Grand Slam so lets not even contemplate it. Take youngsters with a few oldies thrown in like Bakkies (who has hardly played this year) and Schalk. Schalk could lead the team too.
28 Jul 2010, 11:27 am
Before the Super 14 I thought we would win at least one game and get one bonuspoint from one of the other two games, leaving the fight for the trophy between the Boks and the AB’s. We had to play the tri nations with our best available team and we should stick to that. If players are unfit or over played one would expect the coaching staff not te select them to play, unless an overplayed player is still better than the second choice. Hopefully the next three weeks will give enough time for needed recovery.
The following players need to be rested for the end of year tour and should maybe also not be allowed to play Currie Cup:
1. Guthro
2. John Smit
3. Victor
4. Danie Rossouw
5. Schalk
6. Spies
7. Morney Steyn
8. JdV (debatable, maybe he is not overplayed)
9. Jacques Fourie
10. Habanna
My match 22 for the end of year tour to build depth but also to win most games:
1. CJ/Beast
2. Bismarck (wil he be ready?) (otherwise liebenberg, maybe Chilli if he has good Currie Cup, Gary B also fine)
3. BJ
4. Bekker(Will he be ready? If not who else?)
5. Bakkies (he will be well rested)
6. Flo
7. J Smith (Captain)
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Hougaard (He needs game time at scrumhalf though, hopefully will get it in the CC)
10. Pienaar
11. JP Peterson
12. Olivier
13. Juan de Jongh (He will be better at 13 than 12)
14. Aplon
15. F Steyn
16. CJ/Beast
17. Reserve Hooker
18. J Deysel
19. Flip Vd Merwe
20. Basson
21. Peter Grant
22. Kockot
28 Jul 2010, 11:34 am
“The player-driven system is no secret”
Really? Please provide me with proof? Or are we talking open secrets again?
28 Jul 2010, 11:35 am
1. CJ/Beast
2. Bismarck / Liebenberg / Chilli (Cant decide?)
3. BJ
4. Bakkies
5. Flip
6. Flo
7. J Smith / Schalk (each could be captain)
8. Duane Vermeulen / Deysel
9. Pienaar
10. Steyn
11. JP
12. De Villiers (leader in the backline)
13. Juan de Jongh
14. Aplon
15. F Steyn
28 Jul 2010, 11:37 am
diewareouboet – I like your for EOYT.
Seems to me that PDV and the regional coaches have absolutely no communicatin whatsoever. None of the top Boks got the rest time they were meant to have during the S14, i just hope to God they are not played at all during the CC otherwise the top Boks iwll begin to break down by next year and the Boks will have a disastrous RWC
28 Jul 2010, 11:41 am
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-7: the whole world is saying it, why can’t you see it?
28 Jul 2010, 11:43 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-10:
Because I don’t trust hearsay, and I like to see things for myself.
Have any of the players in the team come out and openly admitted it?
If so, why all the abuse being hurled at Peter de Villiers if he is in fact not the one coaching the team?
28 Jul 2010, 11:46 am
There is no scientific evidence to believe that the same will happen to us in 2011. Circumstances are different. Do not for one sec believe that we would be ok in looking back at 2006.
28 Jul 2010, 11:47 am
If Comrade de Veeliers would just not talk we are already winning something. It is the war between the brain and the mouth.
Comrade White made the one mistake and the Irish got the laugh in the end.
2006 and 2010. What is the difference. Comrade White was still building the Springboks. Yes. In 2010 Comrade de Veeliers she has the best team from 2007 and 2009. Right.
What is then the problem? No brains and big mouth.
28 Jul 2010, 11:53 am
Jake had a plan to win the WC2007. He knew what kind of players he wanted, how he wanted them to play (based on defence and set-piece supremacy) and brought in people he knew could help acheive this. And he was willing to sacrifice a loss or two to acheive his goal.
I really hope PdV has a similiar plan. What worries me is, to my knowledge, he hasn’t said what his plan is! One thing is for sure we need to sort out our defence, WC’s are won on defence.
28 Jul 2010, 12:08 pm
Grounhog day 2006
More like learn to ignore the media propaganda war been waged on captain and coach by foreign media
It’s WC shenanigans same clown and dirty bok comments as 2006
Hell we even got naaied the same way by the refs as 2006
All we need to do is replace Muir with Jones
It’s time we backed our team and fought back against the Sanzoo clowns in
28 Jul 2010, 12:12 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-11:what abuse? Pdv is just taking jabs as he rightly should after losing 3 in row overseas.
This is what i call abuse
Boks bore Gerber
Danie Gerber would “kick the coach” if he
was part of the current Springbok set-up.
The former Bok centre was one of the
game ’s great attacking players, and can’t
understand the conservative approach of
Jake White ’s side.
“The way things are going it would have
been extremely frustrating for me to play
rugby today. I probably would have
become so frustrated that I would attack or
kick the coach !” Gerber told News24.
“Players are not allowed to make decisions
as individuals and are not given license to
express themselves. There is nothing that
excites me about how rugby is currently
being played. There are too many rolling
mauls in the modern game, which is just
blatant obstruction. The ball carrier
sometimes has the whole pack of forwards
in front of him and there is just no way the
opposition can stop the maul without using
illegal tactics. ”
Gerber also called for the inclusion of Luke
Watson in the Bok squad.
“The bottom line is he is the best fetcher-
flank in the country at the moment. Besides
? that, he is also creative and epitomises what
is lacking in the current Springbok loose-
trio. ”
This entry was posted on Wednesday,
August 16th, 2006
28 Jul 2010, 12:13 pm
@WP Till I Die(WP-Forever)-11: Din’t you know that?
The script goes like this:
“If the Boks win we must credit in no particular sequence:
The Lord Almighty,
The player power,
The good knowledgeable bok assistants,
The match schedule,
The weather,
The playing pitch,
Structures in place(my favourite)which were established after WW2,
the appearance of a fella named Character (also a favourite),
if the Boks lose then it is,
PdV,
PdV’s comments, etc”
28 Jul 2010, 12:19 pm
you dorks, Jake White and the Boks got lucky with the WC in 2007, we didn’t have to face a single top 5 side. now he’s some sort of genius who won it by getting thrashed on the EOYT? the only reason Frans Steyn featured was due to injury, so if JdV didn’t get injured before the WC, that EOYT would have been a total waste.
28 Jul 2010, 12:19 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-16: Howzit mf’ethu?
28 Jul 2010, 12:23 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-19: great ntanga, zithini?
28 Jul 2010, 12:23 pm
@KevinRack(KevinRack)-15: I agree!
28 Jul 2010, 12:31 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-20: akhonto ntanga, umntu uyonqena ukusebenza!
28 Jul 2010, 12:36 pm
Oh my hat.
The newest Twi-hard movie is called ………
“Breaking Dawn”
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrgggggggggghhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
28 Jul 2010, 12:39 pm
I think its a lot similar to 2006, we have alot of firstchoice injuries, tho we probably have more depth now.
Pick a young side for up north. Wont it be funny if Coach De Villiers adds the Grand Slam to his list of achievements too?
28 Jul 2010, 12:42 pm
Can you imagine a pack to the north of:
1. Beast 2. Bismarck 3. BJ 4. Bakkies 5. Danie 6. Brussow 7. Juan 8. Burger
bench: Guthro, Smit, CJ, Matfield, Potgieter
goodnight nurse – we will bliksem all and sundry.
28 Jul 2010, 12:46 pm
@gecko(gecko)-3:
I’m also rating Junadre Kruger. I follwed him very closely at the Saints in Northampton. He was giving O’Connell all sorts of trouble in Ireland against Munster!
Might take a few games to get settled into the Bulls setup, but my next in line combo for the Bok lock duo would definitely be:
Juandre/Flip and Bekker
28 Jul 2010, 12:47 pm
Speaking of past lashings …
About time I organised another session for the Monarchs at the Tudor (pay-by-the-hour) Hotel on Greenmarket Square.
It’s about time they got their come-uppance.
28 Jul 2010, 12:47 pm
heyneke …. help!!!!!!!!!!!!!! … die boskokkerot PDV het geen clue nie!!!!!
28 Jul 2010, 12:48 pm
JC,
Given the article can I assume you suggest Peter do exactly what Jake did, i.e. stick to the core or spine of the team (John, Victor, etc) to go to the world cup and just fill in the gaps in other positions?
28 Jul 2010, 12:51 pm
Selecting the correct players is only half the job…
Tactically we still have a lot of work/changes to do/make.
28 Jul 2010, 12:52 pm
It is also interesting to note, that for all the ‘youngsters’ Jake supposedly took on tour in 2006 to Europe, only Frans Steyn who made his debut there played any significant part in the World Cup the following year…
Pierre Spies who at that stage only had 4 tests under his belt of course missed the event…
So was the EOYT ‘experiment’ in 2006 a case to unearth young talent, or rather preserve the more senior guys?
Which is it you actually suggest PDV does?
28 Jul 2010, 12:52 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-22: hahaha it’s not so hectic for mna namhlanje
28 Jul 2010, 12:57 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-31:
If you consider that JW identified and decided on who he wanted to take to the next RWC way before the EOYT in 2006, then you have to assume the key priority was rest for the seniors rather than unearthing new talent…
28 Jul 2010, 13:00 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-31: jp pietersen?
28 Jul 2010, 13:02 pm
@quotas_sux(quota_conrad_jantjies_is_jorrie_muller)-28:
Jinne you are dom verby.
28 Jul 2010, 13:02 pm
Fourie du Preez is he out for the whole year i thought twas just a few weeks ???????? and why dont the boks have an iphone app the abs and wallybies have one
28 Jul 2010, 13:02 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-33:
Is there anything that suggests Peter has not done something similar (identify or know who he wants at the RWC)?
His faith in players are about as bad as Jake’s fascination was with the same issue too!
28 Jul 2010, 13:03 pm
Pdivvie’s performance review by SARU
Hoskins: OK Peter, so your team is 3-0 down….please explain why?
PDiv:Well you know, its like this. We did not lift our hind legs high enough, and the big dogs did all the running.
Hoskins: So what you’re saying Peter is that NZ and AUS were just better than the Boks on the day?
PDiv:Well you know, when you stick your finger in the air and it comes back with bird s**t on then you know you’re well loved.
Hoskins: Can you take us through your plans for the 3 remaining home tests, and how you plan to get our team back on track?
PDiv: I love myself, and believe me I have some interesting plans which include Ricki at prop, Earl Rose at flyhalf (he is the tiger woods of rugby) and all our forwards have now been taught how to cheat at the breakdown ‘cos the entire world is against us. Its a racist plot arranged by the Neo Nazi’s to ensure that the 1st black Bok coach fails.
Hoskins: Thank you Peter, I feel much more confident now. By the way, here’s your $5m RWC 2011 bonus payment in advance….there’s no way we will give back the RWC trophy now. On your way out, can you please tell Jake to come in and close the door?
28 Jul 2010, 13:04 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-34:
Funnily enough he did not tour to Europe that year…
His debut was in the last 3N game in 2006 against Aus (where he played fullback) and his second game only the following year against Samoa
28 Jul 2010, 13:09 pm
TRANSFORMATION – 16
Great post, I hope that Danie Gerber was not cheering on 20 October 2007 when we won the RWC. You too for that matter.
28 Jul 2010, 13:11 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-37:
He’s not been as consistent as Jake was with his selection policy so it’s difficult to say if he has made that identification or not to the same level that Jake had.
PDV from the outset though has not looked as RWC focussed as Jake was when he first took over. Perhaps the B&I Lions tour detracted form some of that focus, I don’t know.
Main difference was that JW was building players up whereas we’re trying to find ways to slow down their decline now.
28 Jul 2010, 13:11 pm
Is it only South Africa who get ‘klapped’ so badly? What worries me is that it happens so often! Why are we so inconsistent? Even the AB’s last year never got hammered the way we did. At least it is a contest!
28 Jul 2010, 13:14 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-41:
He has been pretty consistent in selecting the following players whenever they were available:
Beast, John, Vic, Bakkies, Burger, Juan, Pierre, FDP, Habana.
28 Jul 2010, 13:19 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-43:
Could possibly add Bismarck and JPP to that list too.
28 Jul 2010, 13:19 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-40: hahaha why now?
hehehe
28 Jul 2010, 13:26 pm
45 – TRANSFORMATION,
I just love it when former players criticise coaches who then go on to win. It’s a big stuff you to the armchair critics who do nothing but complain.
I don’t see people like Gerber coaching?
It’s the same when Keo complains about the standard of ref’s. I have once challenged him to go complete his referee ticket, become an expert and then start hurling abuse. He was naturally non-commital.
What’s funny is that PDV was the Darling of SA rugby last year. When the Boks smashed the French 6 weeks ago, the public were happy. Now its all doom and gloom.
I think that Prof Noakes must be laughing in his Stellenbosch home. Did he not warn the entire country that Smit, Matfield, Burger, Spies, Bakkies, JDV, FDP and Habana need to rest or (and I quote) :”Their form will begin to wane!”
When it happened to JW, he listened (as I am sure DIV will too) and the result was that we won the RWC.
Now you have many a chump who will try tell the world that SA won a RWC in 07 that was easy. Fact is they beat every team that was good enough to win their games and get in front of them. We beat the defending champions twice. The same defending champions who beat Aus. Its not the fault of JW or the Boks that the Kiwi’s were not good enough to make the Semi’s of the 2007 RWC.
In 1999, Aus never beat the AB’s. Nobody called their campaign a farce.
28 Jul 2010, 13:28 pm
In 2003, England never beat the AB’s at the RWC, nobody called their campaign a farce.
28 Jul 2010, 13:31 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-43:
Main problem there though is that those were the same players JW was consistent with in the build up to his RWC, and PDV has not identified any/many of his own new youngsters…
28 Jul 2010, 13:33 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-46: nobody is saying that the WC 2007 Bok campaign was a farce… however, when you are looking to Jake Whites WC 2007 plans as some sort of infallible blueprint, you have to take into account that the team was never thoroughly tested, and as such it might not be wise to invest such faith in a strategy that was relatively unchallenged.
28 Jul 2010, 13:36 pm
Players that must be rested for the eoyt, must be those that will definitely be in the squad:
Smit
Danie
Victor
Schalk
Morne
Fourie
Habana
I wouldn’t rest Kanko or Spies, they simply wouldn’t make my squad to tour NH.
My side would then be:
Guthro
Bissie
BJ
Bakkies
Hargreaves/?Juan?
Brussow
Smith
Vermuelen
Hougaard
Ruan
JPP
JdV
De Jong
Aplon/Van den Heever/Mvovo/Basson
Steyn
Bench:
Jannie
Gary
Beast
Flip
Deysel
Butch
WO
28 Jul 2010, 13:36 pm
I did not know the coach and his assistants were contracted until the end of RWC 2011.
In that case, my tuppence worth of doing away with the forwards and backs coach and appointing a specialist defense and technical skills coach is not feasible.
But I don’t agree that playing our most experienced players in the home tests will necessarily result in us getting a positive result.
Don’t be surprised if we get another 3-0 drubbing at home.
28 Jul 2010, 13:36 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-48:
Under JW that lot needed consistency, under PDV they need management, and a new bunch need consistency…
28 Jul 2010, 13:37 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-48:
But the lesson stays the same does it not?
Identify the players you want to take to the World Cup and manage them correctly.
Isn’t that what this article is about?
28 Jul 2010, 13:37 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-23: That’s not news. The book was called that.
28 Jul 2010, 13:41 pm
Vir Peter de Villiers:
Ek wil net noem dat ek 100% agter jou staan deur hierdie tyd. Jy het my volle ondersteuning in jou doen en late, en verdien dieselfde kans wat Jake White gehad het om dinge reg te stel na sy nagmerrie seisoen.
Hopelik sal ons net sterker en wyser as ‘n rugby-nasie anderkant uitkom.
28 Jul 2010, 13:41 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-52:
Dont agree so much, given the selection on the EOYT in 2006 and in the away leg of the 3N in 2007 Jake definately managed his players ensuring they are not overplayed.
28 Jul 2010, 13:43 pm
49 FANTASTIC….
Once again, whose fault was it that JW’s RWC side was not tested? I would argue that they were tested by the best teams in the world at that stage. The teams that were strong enough to win their pool games and get to the play off stages.
In 2003, would it be fair to say that Aus were not tested cause they never played SA?
To be fair to your point, I also agree that we need to have a few other strategies. I would say that JW’s strategies were fine at the time. When we needed to beat the AB’s we beat them through the kick chase game plan and our forwards were smashing them up front.
Now that is probably not the best option as they have adjusted to our way of playing them. The strategy needs a change, totally agree.
I do not understand why people keep slamming JW though. He did win the RWC on 20 October 2007. That was what he was hired to do.
28 Jul 2010, 13:44 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-29: Pissant, I didn’t and havent watched the past weekend’s game, I was in the deep of the Eastern Cape, how was Olivier, did De Jongh get minutes?
Remember, now WO, has now started 20 test matches
28 Jul 2010, 13:47 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-58:
Nothing to write home about, De Jongh did get some minutes but the game was about done and dusted by then.
28 Jul 2010, 13:48 pm
I am not going to jump on the PDV bashing bandwagon.
At this point in time for me the only judgement is next years WC. We are a year away and that is the most important thing to focus on.
We had a bad 2006 and all was not lost infact all was won.
PDV will be judged on whether he can turn this around or not.
28 Jul 2010, 13:49 pm
@Simon(Simon)-54:
Cool your jets.
I don’t want my name sullied with that of puny “vampires” who sparkle.
28 Jul 2010, 13:49 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-58:
If we are to be consistent we probably have to argue he has had time to grab his opportunities and has failed to do so.
I am thinking the likes of Brussow and Morne who were given a shot, and made the position their own when they got it.
28 Jul 2010, 13:51 pm
57. BULLET(BULLET) :
100% mate.
The whole arguement that we weren;t true champions because we didn;t meet Aud or the AB’s is bullshite.
Aus and the AB’s were beaten by teams we beat – end of story
We ruled – JW ruled
Jake White for President
hahahah
28 Jul 2010, 13:53 pm
Bok fans there is a new plan of action. Have you checked the facebook campaign called FARAC: Fans Against Rolland And Cheating. FARAC is there to post your message of support for this initiative.
28 Jul 2010, 13:53 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-56:
By that time they had been playing together for a while so the consistency requirements had been largely achieved with the desired results. As the RWC got nearer the need then turned to ensuring they were fresh.
PDV has the same players, but most of them are in a completely different stage of their playing careers now, and hence they have a different requirement to what they did under JW.
My point is PDV has not identified and consistently played new combinations with the RWC in mind to fill in for the older lot while they now require rest/management – far more so than they did under JW in 2006.
You’re right in that the article is about identifying players for the RWC and managing them but to my mind PDV has not done that as successfully as White because in this instance the term “management” required resting and conditioning senior players AND finding and blooding new players/combinations. The latter part of which PDV to my mind has not suceeded with to the level required.
28 Jul 2010, 13:53 pm
58. XhosaKid(XhosaKid) :
Way prefer De Jong – he only got limited game time but was lively in that time.
De Jong to start for the rest of the 3 nations I hope – PLEASE!!!
28 Jul 2010, 13:55 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-57: Jake White did what he was hired to do, sure.
I am slamming him at current for riding the wave of past achievements at the expense of healing the wounded Springbok.
His current statements on PDV is nothing else but a personal ego trip and psychologic chess game intended to further his own cause and hoping supporters would feel nostalgic to the days he was at the helm.
Instead of being supportive to the new national coach during a bear market trend in Bok performances, he is merely engaging in a counterfactual debate asking a lot of “what if” questions, in essence slamming the iron while it is hot and reminding SA Rugby that they should rather have stuck with him.
Him of all people should know the value of support structures around a Springbok team that goes through a rough patch.
28 Jul 2010, 13:56 pm
Xhosakid,
De Jongh came on, looked as hungry as you can for 8 minutes. Pity, I am hoping that he gets game time soon.
28 Jul 2010, 13:58 pm
67. willievz(willievz) :
I do agree with you the timing is uncalled for but PDV really did mouth off when Jake’s contract was being reviewed for renewal saying how he had a better record than Jake etc.
I think PDV mouthed off at Jake quite a bit when Jake was vunerable.
*** for tat I don;t agree is right but these guys obviously don;t get along too well.
But granted not going to say Jake should have jumped on the band wagon now – it is wrong and I’m the biggest Jake White cheerleader around
28 Jul 2010, 14:00 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-59: So, whats the verdict?, 3 more tests to make it 23 starts without anything to write home about?, that will make it 6 consecutive starts!!!!!, not to mention the mess/non event he did against Italy
De Jongh got a sniff against Wales away from home and we all know what happened, you can go to youtube to see it for yourself. When is enough, enough, when are we going to stop explaining why Meisiekind never steps up.
I sincerely hope that in the few minutes JDJ was on the park, he showed something.
28 Jul 2010, 14:03 pm
MIKE H – post 60.
I agree. Nothing to tell PDIV now. He was hired to win the RWC and I will wait and pass judgement then.
WILLIEVZ – 67
Apologies, I agree what White did recently was in poor form. I am not condoning that. My points relating to his management of players and coaching style were the main motivation for my previous posts. I still maintain that he was hired to win the RWC, and anything he did (rightly or wrongly so during his tenure as coach) was vindicated on 20 October 2007. I cannot understand what people have against JW. He did what he was hired to do, brought the most prized possession in World Rugby to one of the most passionate rugby countries in the world under the worst employment conditions of any professional coach in that era, yet there are still thousands in the country who criticise and chastise him daily. It confuses me.
Should DIV win the 2011 RWC, he should feel the same.
28 Jul 2010, 14:06 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-69: I knew that PDV slammed Jake when he went through his rough patch, which was also uncalled for. I was also critical of that behaviour.
But if senior people in SA Rugby just go about returning the favour and slamming each other when results don’t go their way, then SA Rugby is the biggest loser. And as a supporter, I will not accept the trumpet blowing of one coach at the expense of the Bok jersey. Forget it.
Jake should know that playing eye-for-an-eye games with other coaches like the one he is currently engaged in do more harm than good. And once we ask the question why he does this, it unfortunately results in people questioning his integrity and commitment to past achievements.
28 Jul 2010, 14:08 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-65:
Again I think we are assuming PDV has not identified his core squad, or even 80% of the team he wants to take to the World Cup.
I think he has to be honest, but we are just speculating.
More to the point, I think most of the players that won the thing in 2007 is needed to do the same in 2011.
Of course ensuring back up to those players is essential as well as managing those players to the world cup ensuring they are in the best possible condition.
I don’t think we need to worry too much on new combinations apart from a view tweaks in certain areas.
The team that did well in 2009 are for my money, pretty much the team that can do it for us in 2011…
28 Jul 2010, 14:10 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-70:
I am afraid we either go back to the tried and tested (Jean/Mossie combo) or give another guy a shot to announce himself as the official number 2 in that position or even make it his own…
Again, similar to Januarie I do not think Olivier was bad at all, I just think we can do better and its only fair to give another guy a crack now.
28 Jul 2010, 14:13 pm
72. willievz(willievz) :
I do agree mate
28 Jul 2010, 14:14 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-73:
You’re right everything we’re saying is speculation.
On your last paragraph, yes as long as they are managed correctly.
In terms of personnel yes they can win it for us, in terms of tactics….well we’ll just have to wait and see.
28 Jul 2010, 14:15 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-71: No doubt about that Bullet, he did what he was asked to do, enriching the life of millions of South Africans.
South Africa is arguably the toughest rugby nation to please. Just look at the behaviour of some of the bloggers on this site, myself included. We are ruthless, unforgiving, driven by emotion and sometimes unrealistic.
And Jake knows the passion of the SA Rugby supporter, perhaps also because he is one himself. At current he is an armchair Bok supporter enjoying the pleasure of watching the game on TV with a beer rather than a notepad.
But after this week I seriously question if he loves the Springbok more than his own achievements. By making people reflect on his glory days instead of making people dream about the future of SA rugby is incredibly selfish.
28 Jul 2010, 14:22 pm
77 – WILLIEVZ,
Maybe he just wants the current coach to feel how he felt in 2006, as it made him a better coach who ultimately won the RWC…Maybe he is trying to help PDIV with his development. (Okay, that’s a joke)
I cannot speculate as to why JW is saying or doing the current things. I agree, its not good. Unless he explains his motives, I will not comment.
28 Jul 2010, 14:30 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-66: @XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-58: you okes, don’t get Alucard started on the no X-factor-having juan de jongh!
28 Jul 2010, 14:32 pm
Quade Cooper’s appeal to his suspension was unsuccessful.
28 Jul 2010, 14:33 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-74: In the beginning of the year, I said Olivier will have a good season for the Bulls but will never step to test rugby, at that time I even used last year’s CC semi vs WP, I said that game was “testlike” in terms of intensity, hence Bosch and JDJ were able to manhandle Meisiekind and the Aplon humiliated him, I said so not because I hate the guy but if one an analysis of how Meisiekind plays, its clear that he is/will only be effective if his forwards set up the platform for him.
28 Jul 2010, 14:38 pm
@Craven(Craven)-80: thank you! Daft Australians told them there was no reason to appeal!
28 Jul 2010, 14:59 pm
Hoskings has a point, in terms of results on the field there aren’t much difference between White and De Villiers. In fact, their results are almost identical.
Jake White:
All Tests – 54 / 36 / 17 / 1 (66.6% win ration)
Points – 1740 / 1097 Ave: 32 – 20
Tries – 194 / 110 Ave: 4 – 2
Against best nations – NZ (9/3/6), Aus (11/6/5), Fr (4/1/2/1), Ire (4/2/2), Eng (7/5/2)
In 3N - Games 18 / 8 / 10 (44% win ratio)
- Points 375 / 468 Ave: 21 – 26
- Tries 36 / 44 Ave: 2 – 2.4
Peter de Villiers:
All Tests – 32 / 21 / 11 (65.6% win ratio)
Points – 839 / 609 Ave: 26 – 19
Tries – 85 / 53 Ave: 3 – 2
Against best nations – NZ (8/4/4), Aus (7/3/4), Fr (2/1/1), Ire (1/0/1), Eng (1/1/0)
In 3N - Games 15 / 7 / 8 (46% win ratio)
- Points 315 / 340 Ave: 21 – 23
- Tries 27 / 32 Ave: 1.8 – 2.1
But, herein lies the greatest indictment on SA Rugby, they have accepted mediocrity as an acceptable standard to judge our coaches by. Hoskings’ point that De Villiers is on par with White and that he is happy with De Villiers even if he “isn’t the best coach in the world” should be of great concern to Springbok fans.
Although De Villiers on field record might be on par with that of White, Hoskings is making a big mistake regarding De Villiers. No one can question the impact and contribution Jake White had on Springbok rugby. He took the team from the shambles created by Harry Viljoen and Rudolf Strauli and brought SA rugby into contention as a leading nation. There is no argument that White left Springbok rugby in a better condition than he found it, even if his on field record is average.
Can the same be said about De Villiers? Has he done anything else or different to develop the Springbok game or take us to the next level? The answer is an emphatic NO! SA rugby and Peter de Villiers received a fantastic opportunity to make SA Rugby the world’s leading nation, to take SA rugby from average to way above average. When Jake White left, the ground was fertile for SA rugby to flourish like never before.
But, instead SA rugby and Peter de Villiers has accepted mediocrity has an acceptable standard. They have done nothing to advance and further the Springbok game. Hoskings is right in saying that the Boks of 2010 are on par with the Boks of 2007, the only problem is that the rest of the world has moved on three years and we have to start catching up again.
Peter de Villiers still has a year and a half left in tenure before one can really compare him with White. Right now they might be on par in terms of results; they are definitely not on par in terms of contribution to the SA game (especially if you take into account De Villiers’ media outbursts and the damage that has caused). It will be interesting to see the comparison at the end of nest year, will De Villiers still be “on par” with White? If he is, SA Rugby would have failed the Boks and their supporters.
28 Jul 2010, 15:03 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-78: You also asked why some people still criticise Jake even though he did what he set out to.
The fundamental divide is between supporters who would like to win the World Cup and those who would like to be the nr1 team in the world.
Those rugby supporters who criticise Jake on his career are the ones who would like to see a greater win % for all tests instead of achieving the single yet momentous prize of the WC. They criticise Jake because they themselves do not agree with losing on the road and having to contend with a larger loss/win ratio against traditional enemies such as NZ.
In a nutshell, Jake White took on an objective that was necessarily going to be controversial, in the hope that a RWC triumph will erase the possible bad memories of years of team building and losses on the road. Luckily for Jake, the majority of Bok supporters would rather be de jure “World Champions” than the de facto best team in the world.
Of course, Jake got off to a dream start, winning the 2004 3N, which gave hope to the nation that intermediate goals do not have to be sacrificed.
This, however, piled up immense pressure on his shoulders and expectations soared, which resulted first in a poor EOYT. On this tour, Jake tried to remind SA Rugby that we have adjusted our expectations too soon after 3N success, and that the team is still essentially a bunch of boys striving to become men (hence the infamous “boys versus men” comment after England).
But a large part of the public never really forgot the 3N success in 2004, and was disappointed in our 2005 effort before the pawpaw finally struck the fan in 2006. Of course, in 2007, the story is completed with a happy ending. For most.
The JW story is particularly interesting because of its cyclical nature in a short time period. Immense highs were followed by catastrophic lows. For coaches in NZ throughout and for Bok coaches historically, this is an unusual pattern. We sacrificed a lot to be the champions of the World.
And some supporters don’t like unusual stories. Some Bok supporters think the price we pay for ultimate glory is too much. Some would much rather prefer that the Boks take every test as serious as the next one.
My question to the SA Rugby public is if WC glory should be the primary objective for SA coaches, or are we too forward-looking in steering the Springbok ship? Should we rather not focus on season-specific goals, taking a more micro and present day stance to our fortunes? Should we rather not truncate the Springbok business cycle to ensure a smoother output graph?
To make a long story short, SA Rugby should do some self-search and ask itself if it does not have a bogus objective for SA Rugby coaches, the attainment of the WC.
28 Jul 2010, 15:10 pm
@fsjakes(fsjakes)-83: The biggest mistake was appointing a coach and admitting that he was not the best in line simply to justify the status quo and excuse the choice by saying that there were other forces at play. That is like saying I shot my own foot but I kind of enjoyed it. Stupid and plain stupid. If PdV was not the best technically speaking then he should have been given the required backup instead he was seconded two dim witts as his assistants. One who lost 13 out of 13 as S14 coach and the the with pretty much the same record whilst he was second/third fiddle at the stormers. What are Allister Coetzee and Frans Ludeke doing right the PdV is not or even better what are the Stormers adn Blue Bulls doign rigth that SA Rugby is incapable of? Forget about choice of players they can all do the job, they did it in the S14 (although next year may be different), why have they suddenly become inept and incapable all of a sudden. What suprises me is that players who barely make the bench in their sides are being selected in our starting 15or in our starting 22. Now if that is not stupdity at its best I rest my case.
28 Jul 2010, 15:16 pm
85. Objective 101(Objective 101) : Ye mate good point.
Quite demoralising wouldn’t you say.
28 Jul 2010, 15:20 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-85: You kinda missed the point of my post…
28 Jul 2010, 15:23 pm
84. willievz(willievz) :
Jake started with pretty much nothing. A team with less than 200 caps in total and we were ranked 6th/7th in the world.
By the time they were at the WC and at their peak they were the most capped team in SA history. We ended the WC as world campions and ranked number 1 in the world.
Quite an acheivement from where we started.
While you are you building a team it’s harder to have a higher % win ratio.
You’d expect PDV to have a higher win ratio given what he started with.
Last year was probably a peak period for SA rugby where we had a very experienced team who were in good physical condition.
If we make the right decisions this year we can be in good condition for next year and still retain our experience.
28 Jul 2010, 15:25 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-86: Ye the only way to sort this out would be for the paying public to vote with their feet adn stop attending matches. If we start losing at home it will happen and maybe by then SA Rugby wil catch a wake-up.
I fail to find any solace in being told that PdV is just as bad as JW. I would rather be told he is a good as Nick Mallett but that will never happen adn I can quite well understand why both him and Heineke Meyer will be givign SA Rugby as wide a berth as possible. What worries me though from a long term perpective is the total lack of any congruent plan when it comes to rugby development. When last did one of our U19 or U21 sides reach the finals let alone win? When our current Boks were that age which indicates to me that in a few years time we are not even going ot be in the top 5 playing nations unless the selectiosn were so badly skewed that the sides that played were not remotely representative of SA’s playing strength.
28 Jul 2010, 15:26 pm
79. Transformation(Transformation) :
hahaha
I’m becoming more and more a De Jong fan everytime I see him play
But really he needs to play full games to be judged.
28 Jul 2010, 15:28 pm
why is Jake so much media attention….i think even though he said he would apply for it next year…the timing of it was strategic
28 Jul 2010, 15:33 pm
89. Objective 101(Objective 101) :
With regards to the U21′s I’ve noted it many times on here and hardly got any comments.
Jake and PDV were the last to win us U21 WC’s – go figure
28 Jul 2010, 15:34 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-90: i agree with you on de jongh…huge talent.
Talking of game time….Stormers signed Jdv for the super 15 next year…so not much game time for de jongh again unless there is injuries. Unless they play him out of positon at wing to get some game time…but unlikely given we have Habs and gio with jantjies back at 15
28 Jul 2010, 15:37 pm
On the poll on the right i see 10 people want Naka to be the next bok coach
and that D i c k has more support than Gold…interesting
28 Jul 2010, 15:38 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-88: I agree wholeheartedly. What he achieved was immense. The fact that some people are blind to this is the worrying aspect and shows how unforgiving we are as a rugby nation. In life, people are quick to remember the misfortunes rather than the special times.
I am not one slamming White’s past achievements. Quite the contrary – he is one of my heroes in terms of past achievements, not only how he picked up and nurtured a wounded Springbok in 2004, but in how he did it in 2006.
Perhaps this is why I am so disappointed with his recent media outbursts.
28 Jul 2010, 15:49 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-88: “You’d expect PDV to have a higher win ratio given what he started with.”
Actually, because of the fact you just highlighted, PDV has a much tougher job than JW ever had.
Not only does the public expect him to have a higher win % ration, but he has a specific objective – to win the WC. Two objectives that were often at odds in the JW era, as losses were often seen as sacrifices for the ultimate prize. PDV can no longer have this excuse because the wheel does not have to be invented.
Because PDV is working with players who have done it before, you would expect him to have an easier job. However – and this is contrary to the obvious – those players are often complacent and not pitching up in games because they live on their reputation. The players themselves are also mostly focused on collecting test caps, and is motivated to the WC next year. If they try to play full-out and achieve results in every single test they play though, their longeivity in the game will be sacrificed.
28 Jul 2010, 15:53 pm
@willievz(willievz)-96: Do you think Jake White will ever take on a consultancy role with the boks and work with Div…..i think he could help out with our defensive problems
28 Jul 2010, 15:56 pm
Good grief
These epic ramblings !!!!!!!!!!
28 Jul 2010, 15:59 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-93: Rest Habs he is so out of sorts it is not funny. JdJ should be a starter but who knows with Grant gone what they will do. JdV’s star is starting to wane whereas JdJ is starting to rise.
So long as they don’t play pork pie in the starting 15 you should be OK. I hope for yoru sake they get rid of Nqualevuki.
28 Jul 2010, 16:03 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-97: We need a proper technical analyst the one we have at this stage is not up to scratch.
JW is a prima donna it is him or no one else. Eddie moans did all the work yet JW got all the plaudits. And interesting it was BH who gave eddie his jacket not JW!!
28 Jul 2010, 16:09 pm
@fsjakes(fsjakes)-87: I get your point buddy. And I always hear Saffas talk about the Boks improving and becoming no.1
My question is to them, what would the other powerful rugby nations doing in the meantime? the answer is that they are also improving…
so I will accept if the no. 1 spot changes hands every year or so because, unlike what many Bok supporters would like to believe, the other nations have just as good a players as we have… and good coaches too.
and oh by the way, PdV still have to play his home 3N games… so that on par record will swing one way or the other..
28 Jul 2010, 16:10 pm
as long as January never wears the green & gold again, i’m happy ..oh ya and get heyneke meyer!!!!!
28 Jul 2010, 16:11 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-97: Jake owns an incredible technical knowledge about the game and can certainly add value to any team, but I doubt that he will work well with PDV considering the professional rivalry and visible jealousy amongst them.
The counterargument against what I’ve just said is that Jake and Eddie Jones, who also had a fair amount of media banter between them as national coaches, worked well together.
Personally I think Jake’s time is up, and he deserves to sit on the couch drinking a cold fetched beer.
We need a breeze of fresh air in the Boks, and in particular a proper defense specialist and referee consultant such as Andre Watson.
28 Jul 2010, 16:50 pm
@willievz(willievz)-103: Heineke Meyer is ahead of the rest by quite a margin but he will show SARU the finger if they ask him.
I personally would favour Nick Mallett but he is never going to get involved with the clowns at SARU again. So we have to keep what we’ve got and make do with what has become the norm in SA mediocrity.
28 Jul 2010, 16:53 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-99: i think we cant judge Jdv on his performances so far…he was played out of position…he would still be my first choice 12. Vuki is gone i think
28 Jul 2010, 16:54 pm
@willievz(willievz)-103: ya Jake seems to be a my way on no way type of guy so i would agree with you…in a perfect world with no egos maybe
28 Jul 2010, 16:55 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-104: We do not need to fish in local waters to catch the marlin.
There are plenty of quality foreign rugby gurus that would love to add a Springbok consultancy job to their CV and a WC medal to their collection of bling.
Sometimes, the best results are achieved when someone looks at a conundrum with a fresh pair of eyes and without any emotion. I believe every team should have such a neutral and sober element, and foreign labour provides just that.
28 Jul 2010, 16:56 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-104: Mallet seems very happy with the Italian Job…less pressure and no sideshows….besides the fact of getting players released more often so he could work with them that seems to be the problem of playing in the NH.
28 Jul 2010, 16:59 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-105: Good riddance. JdV and JdJ are similar players. I will wait and see how the 10-12 with a kicking 12 turns out for Aussies against ABs on saturday.
Our best no 10 Lem played at 12 for a very long time which is where he refined his tacklinhg abilities. FS may be expendable in the current rules set up as one needs a no 10 who brakes the gain line by running past it not kicking past it.
Actually Mallett’s side would be perfect for the current interpretation of the rugby rules.
28 Jul 2010, 17:01 pm
@willievz(willievz)-107: Before going foreign i would look to Meyer and Solomons first…but that said im not a Pdv basher…i think he should be given a chance. But Saru has to speak to Div AGAIN about his media outburst…less said the better…if anything hes giving these journos ammunition against everytime he has a press conference
28 Jul 2010, 17:03 pm
@willievz(willievz)-107: We will never have a foreigner in charge of coaching, as technical assistants sure but not coachng, there is too much fear that the political beans wil be spilt in the open for a forigner to get top dog job. Plus we export coaches so it would seem crazy to pay anothr Parriera a huge sum of money when we an do just as well locally.
We need SARU and the Banana Khompelas of thsi thsi world to go back to politics and leave sport to sports poeple.
28 Jul 2010, 17:07 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-109: The 12 /13 combo is going to be crucial going into next years wc…and i think it will come down to the stormers combo in next years super15…if they play Jdv and Fourie then Div is forced to go with that into wc for continuity sake…if its Jdj and fourie then the same applies
28 Jul 2010, 17:09 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-112: And we dont really have a kicking 12 besides Meyer Bosman and i think hes out of the loop…maybe thats why Div tried Butch there?? but nevertheless Jdv would be my pick
28 Jul 2010, 17:12 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-110: Both of them have / had provincial ties, which could be an advantage or disadvantage for a Bok team depending on how you look at it.
It is much easier to coach a team if your players is under the impression that you carry no provincialist mantra.
I am a big believer that the national coach should be free of provincialist ties or a particular local dogma or ideology, even though I would like it to be a local person. However, in the professional era, I agree that this is largely an utopian goal since your best and most experienced local coaches are necessarily involved in a provincial capacity somewhere.
Both those names you mention are quality.
I have always been an advocate of the following idea: The best provincial coaches and former Bok coaches should have a monthly forum discussing the Bok team and its results, and what they would do differently. This intelligence should be syphoned through to the Boks and reviewed by the national coaching staff, who should be aware of the issues raised by people who either know a lot about the game, or who have been part of the national team in some capacity before and who are familiar with the dynamics of international rugby and coaching the Boks.
28 Jul 2010, 17:13 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-111: Yep, I will stick to consultants as well.
28 Jul 2010, 17:24 pm
People seem to forget a number of things about the Boks and like to knock them at any opportunity, i am not South African by the way im Scottish so im not biased in any way to the Boks
2007 they played the defending champs twice who beat France who beat the All Blacks, France lost twice to Argentina and once to England who the Boks easily beat. The one ‘break’ they got was playing Fiji instead of Wales, does anybody really think that the Wales of 2007 would have stood a chance against the Boks?, if you do your delusional. They never played Ireland who were also horrendous in the world cup. Australia lost to England who were **** as well and as others have already pointed out the All Blacks lost to France. By the way the Boks were probably in the second toughest group. Tonga,samoa are very physical sides who play rough and are not afraid to break the rules, England are similar and were the defending champs, the USA were the weakest team they had but were still 35+ points better than both Romania and portugal who the All Blacks got in their group along with Italy and my mighty home team Scotland who have never beaten NZ. All in all the Boks were worthy champs in 2007
people also seem to forget the Boks did not compete in either the 1987 or 1991 world cup, they also had the best record of any international team at that point in time so who knows.
1999 they were 6 points away from a world cup win albeit probably an undeserving win, and then went on to beat the Blacks in the nothing 3/4th place play off
The current team is crippled by bad coaching bad selections player fatigue and a number of guys generally off form, the Boks are with ease the most inconsistent team in the world but it is better they are poor this year rather than next. I always said that last year despite their success they only played to about 60-70% of their potential, the worrying signs were the close scorelines despite the dominance because of poor defending and generally switching off after the game was sown up.
28 Jul 2010, 17:27 pm
@willievz(willievz)-114: Not Solomons please he also has a reputation for underachieving (Gary Gold was with him when teh Stormers promised a lot but never got anywhere).
What we need is someone who can explain to our coach and players how rugby rules are refereed and then a coach with assistants and a top notch analyst who can work out how best to exploit the rules with the players we have playing against a specific team. That takes effort and brain which sadly lack from most of the coaching team. The ABs play so well at the moment because they adapt their game depending on who they play against and how the referee blows the whistle. We are at the stage when it is one way or no way and so far it has been no way. Who is the Boks technical analyst? Cause he sure has not been doing his job properly.
Next time there is an interview with the coach I hope SARU are going to invest in some duct tape. We made ourselves the luaghing stock of world rugby. It took SA about 15 years to build a reputation and one idiot to destroy it in 5 seconds.
28 Jul 2010, 17:27 pm
@dquinn25(dquinn25)-116: Welcome to the discussions DQuinn, hope you have a good time blogging on keo!
28 Jul 2010, 17:28 pm
@willievz(willievz)-114: you have a very good suggestion in your post…but again in an ideal world with no egos and every intention of putting Bok rugby first.
I mean wouldn’t it possibly be the case of too many cooks in the kitchen? A lot of the brains trust would have strong personalities…and any criticism against the coach..even though it may be constructive…could be viewed by the coach as others giving a vote of no confidence…i know this is counter-intuitive but look at the egos we have in Sa rugby. Imagine a room with Pdv, Mallet, Solomons, White, Heyneke, Rassie, ****….id love to be a fly on the wall after a 3-0 drubbing
28 Jul 2010, 17:29 pm
last year graham henry commented that the laws needed to be changed because the kicking was destroying rugby. It’s interesting to note that a lot of bloggers responded by saying henry should ADAPT!
A year later we are led to believe that the all blacks have adapted to the revised law changes & subsequently advanced while the boks have stagnated.
Now the part that i don’t get is when does this adapting & advancing happen, because pdv & gh have had these teams for something like 2 months before the tri-nations started. Have the Boks stagnated in the super14 or in the 2 months they’ve been in camp with pdv?
Saffa super rugby teams seemed to have cottoned on very well to the rule changes and their performances tell that story, now i fail to understand how the same bunch of professional players can in a matter of months be stagnant!
28 Jul 2010, 17:29 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-117: I agree that the Boks need more analysis and input on the specific referee before a game, and more importantly, need to increase our relationship with officials.
What do you think of my suggestions of getting Andre Watson involved with the Boks permanently and taking them through the motions in terms of refereeing in the week before training?
28 Jul 2010, 17:34 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-119: Not only the risk of too many cooks in the kitchen, but also the risk of coaches rubbing off their provincialist mantra on the national blueprint and favouring their own players and gameplan in their suggestions.
But at least this will get people around a table and we can start to think constructively about the issues at hand without bashing each other and making unprofessional comments as to what could have been.
28 Jul 2010, 17:36 pm
@willievz(willievz)-121: Sorry…week before training should be week before match.
28 Jul 2010, 17:39 pm
@dquinn25(dquinn25)-116: Thats what eats at us Bok supporters…is that we know that we have the team to be consistently good…but we are not.
28 Jul 2010, 17:41 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-120: I dont think the Boks have a problem with the laws but rather the interpretation of the laws by the NH referees….in the Super14 there were no complaints
28 Jul 2010, 17:44 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-120: “Have the Boks stagnated in the super14 or in the 2 months they’ve been in camp with pdv?”
I think the results will show that they have not stagnated in the Super 14.
28 Jul 2010, 17:45 pm
@willievz(willievz)-122: Thats where professionalism comes in and putting there own agendas/ambitions aside for the good of Bok Rugby
28 Jul 2010, 17:45 pm
@willievz(willievz)-121: Andre Watson is good, the ABs have regular sessions with current refs, but would you want to get involved afer the coach has called one of your fellow practitioners a cheat?
We keep on finding excuses for PdV stupid outbursts. English is not his first langauge. What a load of bollocks. They guy is paid millions. It sounds much like some politicians who excuse stealing and corruption because english is not their first language.
28 Jul 2010, 17:50 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-128: He should keep quiet as much as possible at the press conferences….or say a lot but mean nothing..but then again that wont work for Divvy…anything will be used against him at this point
28 Jul 2010, 17:53 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-125: but that is not what is being said if you read some of these articles. Phrases like “the springboks are playing last year’s rugby & the all blacks are playing next year’s rugby” are doing the rounds internationally. That running/expansive rugby is the new trend and the Boks are stuck in a “kick & chase” rut…
28 Jul 2010, 17:53 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-129: He should not even be there. Point. It is embarassing having to hear him and showing up as the representative of SA Rugby and SA at large.
28 Jul 2010, 17:56 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-130: Not the bks, the people who devise their game plans. We have brilliant running rugby talent yet they hardly ever touch the ball. It reminds me of when a guy sitting next to Naas on a plane. Naas asked him who are you? He replied your inside centre.
28 Jul 2010, 17:57 pm
Can someone illuminate for me the difference between the current laws governing the Tr-Nations Internationals & the last S14.
I was under the impression that they were the same?
And if they are the same, why did we do so well at that level, yet are so bereft at international level.
28 Jul 2010, 17:58 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-130: Beating the Boks is not so complicated – match us physically, run us off our feet, protect the ball.
28 Jul 2010, 18:00 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-130: In my opinion we are very, very slow. We lack pace at almost every position that requires a level of speed. But we are particularly lacking at inside center and fullback.
28 Jul 2010, 18:01 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-133: Coaching damn coaching. How welldid the Lions do under Muir? Played 13 lost 13. What do you expect of the Boks with such a coach who has such great understanding of the laws.?
28 Jul 2010, 18:02 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-130: Div and Smit said they were bemused at some of the refereeing decisions and Matfield also looked particularly frustrated at some of the calls. I think we should make up our minds based on what we saw and not accept everything we read. I mean look at the Aus game for eg. did we really have a kick and chase gameplan?? As i recall i only remember seeing two up an unders through out the game…i could be wrong but thats what i recall. Yes there was a few from Zane but then again thats all he can do he hardly runs it back
28 Jul 2010, 18:05 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-136: Please don’t bring up **** Muir’s tenure at the Lions.
Now that you have. Yes.
Our 3 coaches have no level of ability to compete on an international platform.
It’s all very well that the players coach the team (although that may well be conjecture)but the flaw is that those “coaches” lose form and it’s a house of cards. Neither Smit, Matfield or Habana are playing well at all, and FdP is injured.
Boom.
28 Jul 2010, 18:05 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-134: thats the plan
28 Jul 2010, 18:08 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-135: Jdv and Jdj at 12. Fullback i have no idea…kirschner not the answer
28 Jul 2010, 18:13 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-134: hi soda, longtime no see on the window… So where do these newspaper rugby ‘experts’ get the ideas expressed below?
‘The Springboks just don’t get it. They insist they won’t change their game to take into account the realities of rugby in 2010. So they are deliberately trying to undermine the new interpretations. The hope is, presumably, that the IRB might restore the kick/pressure/penalty game that was so favourable to them.’
28 Jul 2010, 18:14 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-138: No qualms but the response we get from SA Rugby is that because JW was kaaaak in one year it is ok for PdV to be as bad if not worse. I that is a logical explanation then I rest my case. What concerned me the most is that despite the fact that what we did did not work we persisted. To err is human but to persevere …
I agree that we should rest all of our older players and put in them in some sort of a physical rehab programme (that is how we won on 2007!!!), plus we must start selecting players on merit. To pick Januarie at 9 because he scord one try last year that won us a match in New Zeland was a joke, to pick him twice was no loger a joke but plain stupidity.
Our best no15 is in france yet for soem stupid reason and personal pride PdV will not pick him and rather excuses his dementure with the outburst that according to him players playing overseas are not that fit anymore. Why pick Butch James and CJ vander Linde? There is no logi cin what is being done. Anyway if we get drilled in SA as well probably will be the case no amount of shielding will keep PdV in his job.
28 Jul 2010, 18:20 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-137: talking about Zane’s playbook… when was the last time did you see the SA backs run back to support their fullback?!!… almost everytime Zane got the ball he is all by himself at the back with no supporting players (JdV & Habana too tired to run back)…
what I’m trying to say is that Zane’s up and unders were always the safest play under the circumstances mentioned above…(considering that he does not have Aplon’s elusiveness at the tackle point)
If SA learned to run back and support the back three we can counter attack more… you will notice that when Mils ran the ball back he always had 2 or 3 players he could offload to when tackled… that was never the case with SA.
28 Jul 2010, 18:25 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-143: That is because he starts to run as soon as he catches the ball (and does nto knock on) so that by teh time he gest to the opposition he ha srun where is support is. Kirchner catches the ball (sometimes) looks around then runs or kicks by then the defence is in his face, support or no support.
Just like Januarie he has to look around before he does anything, no instinctive natural play.
28 Jul 2010, 18:25 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-142:
” No qualms but the response we get from SA Rugby is that because JW was kaaaak in one year it is ok for PdV to be as bad if not worse. I that is a logical explanation then I rest my case”
Correction, stats show that Jake only had 1 good year (the latter part of 2007).
28 Jul 2010, 18:28 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-143: i here your point but Zane does the same at the Bulls…almost as if he is scared to run it back with the fear of being turned over (for the boks and bulls) so his first instinct is to kick….thats what i liked about Frans if there was an opportunity he took it
28 Jul 2010, 18:30 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-145: He also won a 3N when he took over.
28 Jul 2010, 18:43 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-146: “almost as if he is scared to run it back with the fear of being turned over (for the boks and bulls) so his first instinct is to kick”
you are correct…that is why I compared him to Aplon. Aplon is such a “dangerous” player because he is the opposite, therefore he have the constant fear of being turned over… and he is hardly ever turned over because most of the time the opposition defence are wary of committing a high tackle on him (which is always a threat when a player of his tiny built runs straight at you)…
Zane, like Frans, always run the risk of being turned over because they are not great “steppers”, they only aim to break the line or around defenders…
talking about “steppers”, that Quade Cooper is one mean stepper, I remember him on Saturday side stepping some defenders from a standing start!! Players like him, Izzy, Mapoe and Aplon play as if they are playing touch rugby sometimes…
28 Jul 2010, 18:48 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-146: Zane is good defensively, and his positional sense is also good.
Unfortunately he is a carthorse.
Who’s up and under rivals Conrad Janthe’s for aimlessness.
Joe Pieterson
Louis Ludick
And I feel that Frankie Hougaard would make an excellent fullback.
All are fast and can be our Mils, Cullen, etc. Joe P can kick as well.
28 Jul 2010, 18:48 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-147: I know, I can still remember where I was watching it with some buddies.. I was ecstatic when we lifted up the cup… but other than that… it was an ordinary year because we never dominated NZ & AUS…
we also got our bottoms handed to us by Ireland and E-nge-land, E-nge-land, E-nge-land( Sorry…I was just reminiscing about the vocal England supporters at the 2010 SWC)
28 Jul 2010, 18:48 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-148: whats your take on jantjies
28 Jul 2010, 18:50 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-148: Aplon is a wing, and should start at wing ahead of JPP.
Frans is too slow to be a fullback under current laws imo, and should play at 12 where he is lethal on defence, scary on attack (but maybe a bit too crash bang bif).
28 Jul 2010, 18:51 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-137: ruan on his own, kicked 4 box kicks and the 5th found touch in the wallabie 22
28 Jul 2010, 18:52 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-149: I like Hougaard’s cameo at the end… he is my kind of scrummy… I scrummies that are aggressive around the ruck… they keep the defending team guessing and not sure how to organise their defense…
28 Jul 2010, 18:53 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-153: i take your word for it…it just seemed to me that we kicked less against the Aus than we did in previous weeks
28 Jul 2010, 18:55 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-152: so then who would be your fullback?
28 Jul 2010, 18:58 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-148: talking about steppers, did you see james o’connor make the springboks look like dimwits in this own 22! Wow…
28 Jul 2010, 18:59 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-151: I haven’t seen him in a long time… the last few years he has been very average and not as confident as he was when he burst onto the scene (can you remember his man of the match performance against the Ozzies in 2001/2002?(can’t remember the exact year)…
when he was at the Lions, he combined well with Andre and their combined kicking (not necessarily place kicking) game was the best back then… now he has become mechanical unfortunately
and I’m not sure he will improve this after his longterm injury…
28 Jul 2010, 19:03 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-157: I saw that…the boy also has bulked up tremendously and that has added to his artillery… I could not believe the hand-off he gave to one of our vaste vyf (i think it was between Burger and Matfield)… after I saw that I had a sinking feeling that the Boks were in for spanking of note..
28 Jul 2010, 19:03 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-158: yes i remember that game…hes not the same player unfortunately…but im interested to see how he goes in the super15 next year…could surprise us
28 Jul 2010, 19:04 pm
guys outa here…supper
Cheers
28 Jul 2010, 19:09 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-152: I agree… we need an elusive, Izzy Dagg kind of player from the back, someone who can create a gap out of nothing… (as some experts here like to say: “in test rugby there is no space given to play”)
I haven’t see enough of Lambie but Aplon for me can do the job… but most fear that although his defence is good, he will be easily despatched by attacking players if he is the last line of defence..
28 Jul 2010, 19:10 pm
i also reckon F Steyn at 12….
28 Jul 2010, 19:22 pm
@grant10(grant10)-163:
Frans is out of the equation until after next years S15. It’ll be interesting to see where PdeV sees de Jongh fitting in long term , at 12 or 13.
28 Jul 2010, 19:26 pm
@theOracle(theOracle)-150: We did indeed. From my point of view the real golden years were with Christie and Mallett. Christie we cannot have back but letting Mallett go was as stupd a thing as they could do. I wonder where our rugby would be if he had stayed on.
Problem is that in modern times you need accedemies to focus on your best players. In our country we do not do that we use accademies to correct the demographics of sport which is not the rigth way to go if you want to remain a winning nation and promote excellence. The demographics of sport must be corrected at school level not at accademy level. But hey who am I to say. Look at strong rugby schools and look at how many players they contribute to the provincial sides. Then lok at our SA Craven week side and askyoruself whethe those ar the best players or not. We haev allowe dto get ruled by politics and as usual politics does nothing else than screw evything up. It did at the time of the broeders and it is doing it now.
28 Jul 2010, 19:27 pm
@David(David)-164:
Forgot, the EOYT is falls into the international test window, so his club must release him.
28 Jul 2010, 19:27 pm
@David(David)-164: I have only seen him at 12, and he was the most dangerous 12 in S14 with ball in hand, and also handles defensive duties adequately.
28 Jul 2010, 19:28 pm
If they weren’t so kak bang Bok’s would have plenty back line go forward, its this pathetic conservative penchant that puts us in this predicament, there is no such shortage of game breakers in the back line.
Viljoen, Aplon, Joe Pietersen, Kirchner, Lambie
JPP, Aplon, Basson, Van Der Heever, Basson
Fourie, Mapoe, J. de Jongh, Habana, Ebherson
J. de Jongh, JdV, F, Steyn, M, Steyn, JL Potgieter
Habana, Mvovo, Nokwe, Hougaard
Pienaar, JL Potgieter, P. Grant, Lambie, M. Steyn
Pretorius, Hougaard, Duvenhage, Pienaar
28 Jul 2010, 19:30 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-165:
One of the things most fans ignore, is that not all talented youngsters see professional rugby as a career. I reckon that’s something we miss when wondering what happened to them.
28 Jul 2010, 19:32 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-168: Yep nobody talks about Joe Pietersen a player of incredible talent albeit his size. He will not make the Boks and now with Janties back he will not even make the WP starting 15 unless he starts playing at no 10 which for me could be a real treat.
Pietersen coudl be a special no 10 can kick has incredible natural vision and has a great side step.
28 Jul 2010, 19:33 pm
@David(David)-164: ja….pity.
Juan de jongh a more natural 13 imo….but a damn fine player…far better than WO..imo
28 Jul 2010, 19:34 pm
@SodaJoe(SodaJoe)-167:
He also made some well timed offloads against the Aussies, which is vital for a 12. It’ll be interesting to see how he develops as he only started playing 12 in this years S14.
@skopskiet(yliad)-168:
You’re right, we kill the attacking flair in our players.
28 Jul 2010, 19:35 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-170: joe is in france for 2 years
28 Jul 2010, 19:40 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-170:
I agree with you. Also the guy was showing a lot more maturity in his decision making at 15 during the S14, which is vital in a flyhalf. A pity he’s gone.
28 Jul 2010, 19:43 pm
With all the out of position selections I can’t help but wonder how Fourie du Preez would have done as a flyhalf… Why has nobody tried to convert him?
I’m not saying I would but if PdV can play JdV at wing then its not too far fetched.
28 Jul 2010, 19:45 pm
This is the story of a strong international brand being destroyed by misadministration, mismanagement, and miscoaching.
A seven-year cycle is apparent: the 2003 World Cup and the 2011 World Cup.
28 Jul 2010, 19:46 pm
Its not only in the backs where we l;ack vision.
Its the forwards as well.
We seem intent on discarding the fetcher….back to the dark era of Jake…..
Without Bissy we have no one capable of ripping at the breakdown…..when they dropped flo i just sighed in disbelief…..and i cannot understand why Steggmann was not over there.
We seem so afraid to embrace the youthful players who are in form……very, very frustrating times
28 Jul 2010, 20:10 pm
@grant10(grant10)-177:
There is no dark era of Jake, He had a bad 2006 season due to an extensive injury list. he learnt from it & got the results.
What is Peter’s excuse? Why was JdV playing on the wing? Why was Ricky & Olivier kept in the starting XV after disimal performances?
The diffrence between Jake & Peter is that Jake knew what went wrong & fixed it. Since Peter has been coach there are comics in the front and back of every newspaper.
28 Jul 2010, 20:12 pm
@JohnX(John_Psycho)-178: jake was not any better…..imo.
His lack of a fetcher cost us throughout his reign….
a wc win with a dream sequence of games doesent blind me to his dumb philosophy.
28 Jul 2010, 20:16 pm
@JohnX(John_Psycho)-178:
What injury list did Jake have in 2006, than is worst than PdeVs current one?
28 Jul 2010, 20:21 pm
@David(David)-180: not sure about injuries… but he did choose to send a 2nd string team on the away leg of the 3N and on the EOYT.
28 Jul 2010, 20:28 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-181:
Yes he did, to rest his senior players. In the end, he was lucky to avoid WC injuries apart from JdeV.
28 Jul 2010, 20:33 pm
Jake never fixed nothing, some you people are delusional
Jake lost as follows
24 Jun 2006 SAF v FRA 26-36 Newlands – Loss
5 Jul 2006 SAF v AUS 0-49 Brisbane – Loss
22 Jul 2006 SAF v NZL 17-35 Wellington – Loss
05 Aug 2006 SAF v AUS 18-20 Sydney – Loss
26 Aug 2006 SAF v NZL 26-45 Loftus – Loss
02 Sep 2006 SAF v NZL 21-20 Rustenburg – Win (1pt)
09 Sep 2006 SAF v AUS 24-16 Ellis Park – Win
11 Nov 2006 SAF v IRE 15-32 Lansdowne Rd – Loss
18 Nov 2006 SAF v ENG 21-23 Twickenham – Loss
25 Nov 2006 SAF v ENG 25-14 Twickenham – Win
16 Jun 2007 SAF v AUS 22-19 Newlands – Win (2 x FS long range drop goals)
23 Jun 2007 SAF v NZL 21-26 Kings Park Durban – Loss
07 Jul 2007 SAF v AUS 17-25 Sydney – Loss
14 Jul 2007 SAF v NZL 6-33 Christchurch – Loss
This is a string of losses interspersed with a few wins (4 wins against 10 losses – from 14 games) over a period of 12 months that should make any international coach blush with embarrassment. Yet these idiots that think Jake White knew what he was doing remain bamboozled by their own dumb schmuck delusions.
Only thing White did right was realize he had no clue about winning rugby whatsoever so he employed somebody who did in EJ and that is what saved his credibility, along with a world cup draw that resulted in his side never meeting any team ranked higher than Argentina at 6 IRB ranking.
Bok’s entered WC 2007 ranked 4th behind NZ, Aus and France and emerged at rank 1 after beating 13th rank Fiji, 6th rank Argentina and 7th rank England.
Jake White had possibly the worst rate of wins / loss percentage of any Bok coach if you consider 4 wins from 14 games over a period June 06 to July 07 against teams that actually mattered or were rated higher than rank 6 in the world.
Idiots that still think this fool represents a rugby strategy that worked are pretty much clueless, Jake White was more at sea than PdV could ever be until he got Eddy Jones to bale him out the spiral of lost causes he found himself facing in July 07 after the 3N that year.
28 Jul 2010, 20:36 pm
@grant10(grant10)-179:
I have to disagree. Jake took over the laughing stock of the world & transformed them into World Champions in four years.
Peter took over World Champions & in S03 is transforming them into the laughing stock.
If the ball is there fetch it!
Jake didn’t pick that dream sequence, they played who was infront of them. Sa beat England 36 – NIL, Aussies lost to England so the Aussies had their chance to come up against the Boks just like New Zealand did.
I have no doubt that Jake & The Boks at the RWC’07 would have beaten team in their path.
28 Jul 2010, 20:36 pm
i see Ulster have confirmed Ruan Pienaar will officially be an Ulster player w.e.f. 1 sept 2010.
Well done sharks and boks……
28 Jul 2010, 20:37 pm
@JohnX(John_Psycho)-184: okay
we will have to agree to disagree
28 Jul 2010, 20:39 pm
@JohnX(John_Psycho)-184: see skops 183…..not so wonderful stats ?
28 Jul 2010, 20:40 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-183: you cut and paste that from 2008, or perhaps 2005? It’s years later skop and you are still saying the same thing. You must really be loving all this renewed Jake White talk
Your post doesn’t explain how Jake White guided the Boks to the 3N crown in 2004 and how we finished 2nd in the 2005 3N to a single bonus point. Neither does it explain why the IRB considered Jake White good enough to be coach of the year 2004.
Fact is skop, you may not like JW personally, but he was miles ahead of Streauli, Viljoen, Du Plessis, Markgraaf, etc. Let’s just be grateful he restored some much needed pride in the Bok. He was the right man for the time.
Not any more though.
28 Jul 2010, 20:42 pm
4 wins from 14 games that mattered through 06-07 = a grand win % of 29%
Factor in the one sided world cup draw of
Samoa – rank 12
England B – rank 7
USA – rank 16
Tonga – rank 14
Fiji – rank 13
Argentina – rank 6
England A – rank 7
and suddenly you get to fool yourselves that this coach had some clue about what he was doing, meanwhile it was his mentor Jones that held his hand through his hour of need else he would have folded.
Bet you much as you like that if not for E. Jones Jake would have played Olivier when JdV went down injured and not F. Steyn. It was Jones that gave him the courage to make decisions he could not make alone, and change the game plan that pulled him out from that 4 wins from 14 games spiral against proper opposition backdrop to his WC campaign
28 Jul 2010, 20:44 pm
At the risk of “sour grapes” accusations …..
The ABs lost against France because of their own stupidity. They refused to set for a drop goal because the captain really believed that Barnes could not continue to ignore France’s players being offside. But he did and the ABs lost (defeated themselves).
France then considered that they had “won” their WC and capitulated to a very so-so England (an England that had already played the Boks).
So to the final…..
28 Jul 2010, 20:44 pm
Think of all the losses to NZ in our own back yard… 16-52 at Loftus just the year before (in 2003).
In fact, Jake’s first game in charge against the All Blacks, we lost 23-21 late on in Christchurch… Very next game we thumped them at Ellis Park 40-26, our first win against NZ in 4 YEARS!
Can’t argue that JW restored pride and a sense that we should beat the All Blacks at HOME 9 times out of 10 – something we take for granted now.
28 Jul 2010, 20:46 pm
all i hope and pray is pdv finds the courage to walk his own path…..
its going to take ballas
although i reckon some deals are probably beibg struck as we speak
28 Jul 2010, 20:48 pm
@grant10(grant10)-187:
Horrible stats no doubt!
28 Jul 2010, 20:48 pm
I don’t buy this “we fluked a RWC thanks to the draw” bulls hit.
We beat who we had to.
Not our fault NZ lost in the 1/4s to France (who were beaten by Argentina TWICE and who we beat convincingly).
Not our fault France lost to England in the 1/2s (who we utterly thrashed in the pool and beat in the final).
Not our fault Aus lost in the 1/4s to England (see above).
Stop finding reasons to “hate” Jake White
28 Jul 2010, 20:54 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-194: i do agree that we can only play who is in front of us….
but lets face it , it was an awesome sequence of games….a bloody dream come true! [ thank you rugby Gods !]
I dont hate JW….i do however dislike his rugby philosophy….we are poles apart.
As such i would rather he does not coach Boks again….even if he would want to make LW captain.
28 Jul 2010, 20:56 pm
we not talking 04 and 05 when he still baffled the world into thinking he had a clue, sure he was better than Streauli, any idiot could have been better than that fool.
We talking 06-07 where Jake White could not buy a win against top rank sides if they were stacked up on a plate, he simply didn’t have a clue and that is precisely why he called E.Jones to bale him out his forlorn clueless stupor.
He may have been better than Streauli, perhaps, though Streauli met proper opposition in 03 in 1st rank England and 2nd rank NZ, not low rank sides like Jake did in 07.
He was not better than Du Plessis though, who actually setup the blue print for Mallet to inherit his visionary team. Du Plessis created the Teichman team with Honiball, Fleck, Montgomery, Roussouw, Joubert etc in the backline
Mallet simply rode on Du Plessis creation and fine tuned it to win a string of successful games till his own big head got the better of him too.
Same as Heyneke Meyer came last in the S12 for the first few years running till he managed to turn his Bulls philosophy around. Du Plessis would have done same with Bok’s if given the chance.
28 Jul 2010, 21:02 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-189:
a list of our 1st choice players were injured during the 2006 season. No coach would have been able to do better under the circumstances.
28 Jul 2010, 21:05 pm
Colin Bryden
A Test too far for Smit?
2010-07-28 08:38Email | Print
Sport24 columnist Colin Bryden (File)
Colin Bryden
There’s definitely a place for sentiment in sport, especially when there’s a feel-good factor likely to moisten a cheek or two.
It’s not always in the best interest of teams, though.
Makhaya Ntini was always going to play in the first Test against England last season. Cricket South Africa had already announced it was going to make a big occasion of it because it was his 100th Test.
So, despite poor domestic form, he was picked. Sadly he didn’t make much of an impact, making the celebrations and presentations somewhat hollow. He played in the next Test, too, and then was dropped. By then, South Africa were 1-0 down in a four-match series.
Watching Tri-Nations rugby over the past three weekends has caused me to wonder whether the Springboks are on the right track, a year out from the 2011 Rugby World Cup.
Then someone mentioned that John Smit will be playing in his 100th Test on what should be an extra-special occasion, the first rugby international to be played at the magnificent stadium which hosted the Soccer World Cup final recently, against the All Blacks, too.
Smit has been one of the undoubted greats of the game but we have to start wondering whether he will still be up to it in a year’s time. We also have to wonder whether the World Cup master plan is starting to unravel.
It seemed a great idea a year ago to keep the stars of the 2007 World Cup together for a second crack at glory but now it looks a shaky strategy. It’s also a bit late to start building a new team.
As we saw with the football, where the defending champions Italy brought an ageing squad to South Africa and failed to get beyond the first round, four years is a long time in sport.
The Springbok scene seems confused and one wonders who is going to fix it.
It makes me at least mildly nostalgic for the days when Danie Craven ruled South African rugby. He might have become an old dictator but he was a rugby man through and through. If there was a crisis in the team he was quite capable of taking off his jacket and sorting it out himself.
I look around sport today and don’t see too many people in administrative leadership positions who have played at the highest level.
It’s certainly not necessary to have been an international sportsman in order to be a capable administrator, but it does help when it is necessary to make decisions affecting the national team.
Who in the current South African rugby set-up, I wonder, is qualified to make an objective, technical assessment of the job that Peter de Villiers and his coaching staff are doing?
Colin Bryden is a former cricket correspondent of the Sunday Times and current editor of the Mutual & Federal South African Cricket Annual
28 Jul 2010, 21:10 pm
@grant10(grant10)-198: in my opinion….if you want sentimentality…..go see a chick flick.
But then again i reckon Plod has been superfulous for at least a year now.
should have retired in a blaze of glory post last years B and I lions tour…..but no !
Then an even greater farewell after the tri nations….but no.
Now a disatrous EOYT and a terrible start to the tri nations 2010 tarnishing the reputation week after week…..
Come on Plod….call it my man….you done.
28 Jul 2010, 21:15 pm
It looks like the boks are playing more and more like the Lions in the S14, could there be a link?
28 Jul 2010, 21:15 pm
who was injured in 06 compared to who is injured now?
Burger, Botha and JdV missed the Aus game where we lost 49-0 otherwise entire team that went to world cup were there and played in that team
Os, CJ, Smit, Matfield, Smith, Van Niekerk, Cronje, Fdp, Januarie, Van der Westhuizen, Olivier, Fourie, Habana, Montgomery, Paulse, etc.
Here are the teams and stats from that game.
15 July 2006 at Suncorp Stadium
Jake White believed in defense and on this occasion it looked a complete flop as the Wallabies ran in six tries to record their biggest win ever over the Springboks, the biggest win ever in the history of the Tri-Nations – and it was the Springboks’ opening match of the 2006 Tri-Nations.
The scorers:
For Australia:
Tries: Paul, Holmes, Giteau 2, Larkham, Chisholm
Cons: Mortlock 5
Pens: Mortlock
Drop: Larkham
The teams:
Australia: CE Latham, MA Gerrad (C Rathbone), SA Mortlock, MA Giteau (MS Rogers), LD Tuqirir, SJ Larkham, GM Gregan (captain) (SJ Cordingley), SG Fava, GB Smith (PR Waugh), RD Elsom, DJ Vickermann (MD Chisholm), NC Sharpe, GD Shepherdson (GS Holmes), JA Paul (SP Hardman), GS Holmes (AKE Baxter).
South Africa: PC Montgomery (HM Bosman), AZ Ndungane (BJ Paulse), J Fourie, W Olivier, BG Habana, JG van der Westhuyzen, ER Januarie (PF du Preez), PJ Spies, JH Smith (J Cronje – temp), JC van Niekerk (J Cronje), V Matfield, DJ Rossouw (PA van den Berg), CJ van der Linde, JW Smit (captain) (D Coetzee), JP du Randt (EP Andrews).
Referee: PG Honiss (New Zealand)
28 Jul 2010, 21:29 pm
Imagine it was PdV that lost 49-0
hoo boy the blood would be splattering across my screen right now for sure.
So coaches that lose 49-0 are celebrated as hero’s and those that lose 30-13 on the same ground 4 years later are regarded as quotas, No wonder this country is farked up crooked, upside down, back to front, inside out, left to right, in the head.
28 Jul 2010, 21:29 pm
i still cringe when i see that loose trio….reminds me so much of the dark era….hell man…that G Smith and Mc cAw used to decimate us at the breakdown.
Sad thing is we had in LW one of the top opensiders on the very pinnacle of hios form….and chose to allow silly rubbish and politics to ignore him.
It still burns my gut.
28 Jul 2010, 21:32 pm
with brussow and steggmann out we must box clever on the home leg.
Play Bissy at 2 when he is ready….he assists big time at the breakdown.
Then play flo at opeside with Dewalt Potgieter at 8…..they both to the ball players…..also will assist in negating Pocock and mc caw.
Then at 7 its either Schalk or Juan Smith imo……
Play spies off the bench….bloody oke a lazy lout at the moment!
28 Jul 2010, 21:40 pm
If White wouldn’t have been such a vindictive little snot nosed manipulator LW would have played open side flank and 49-0 would not have occurred, in fact the entire progression from that one single omission created the biggest undermining putrefied cause of events which culminated in a whole sing song show down where people still to today believe White and Smit to be saints and Watson to be the devil incarnate.
When Burger went down White picked Tyabalika, Floors, Spies at 6, anybody and everybody but he would not lower his pride to pick Watson, in that action he set the division, not the other way around, so Watson inherited the divisive scape goat tag, and Smit and White walked tall in their belief.
Now Smit is kaput and PdV will have to go with Matfield as captain where Watson would have been the natural successor all things being equal on an equal playing field.
The real irony of the issue is Watson has been touted as Bath captain and Eddy Jones has stated that if White gets Bok job in 2012 he could very possibly pick Watson as his captain. How despicably hypocritical is that?
In 06 and 07 White dug his heels in to the extent of calling Watson everything wrong as far as his Bok vision was setup whereas in 012 he’s good enough to make him captain.
Pathetic is hardly the word.
28 Jul 2010, 21:41 pm
@grant10(grant10)-204: ideal loose trio for me would be
6. Brussouw/louw/stegmann
7. Smith
8. Burger
Spies to wear no.19 until he gets some form back
28 Jul 2010, 21:45 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-205: So eddy jones said white would ‘possibly’ pick watson as his captain….if that words don’t come out of whites mouth i would never believe that
28 Jul 2010, 21:49 pm
i tell you Skop…..karma is a mean bi tch my man…..The day i heard of the plod cancer comment was the day i believed truly in my heart that plod would get his come uppance…..there is no way that vindictiveness and maliciousness goes without retribution…..and plod is going down in flames….with a tarnished reputation to boot.
Bloggers and fans are fickle….with each and every passing loss the mood changes…..there is very , very little support left for plod now. And i tell you….the man holding plod together is matfield….if he decides to pull the plug on plod its all over rover, goodnite nurse……plod has lost the changeroom….it is matfield that is ‘the man ‘ now…..and plods indifference to his shape, form and fitness points to a retirement….and not a day too soon.
Jakes opportunistic news paper headline has done him damage imo….people are now seeing to see the manipulative side of jake…..the overture to LW is transparent….he needs acceptance from the very man he kicked in the face.
Funny thing is …it may just come to pass….
28 Jul 2010, 21:51 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-206: ja…
to be honest i am not sold on schalk at 8….
but i would play him there in place of the awol show pony at this juncture….he wont be worse!
28 Jul 2010, 21:54 pm
dont be surprised if luke is back soon….he only has a year to go at Bath….now as skipper.
Kings are due to [lay superrugby….
Watch the return of the prodical son….the fatted calf may just be the bok captaincy.
I will be in heaven!
28 Jul 2010, 21:57 pm
Hello JW bashers:
Well a few points:
1) If JW was so clueless and Eddie Jones won us the RWC, at least White had the foresight to contract him.
2) 20 October 2007
3) SKOPSKIET – in reference to post 183, why did you stop mid 2007? What happened towards the end of 2007?
4) 20 October 2007
5) We won the RWC playing against the sides that were “good enough” to make it to the quarter’s, semi’s and finals. Not our fault Aus & NZ did not make it further to play us.
6) 20 October 2007
7) JW lost 49-0 to thw Wallabies in 2006 – his team also beat them by 50 in 2008, just 6 months after winning some big trophy.
Pre 2007 RWC – Jake White was exactly what SA rugby needed. Discipline, structure and a coach who would bring pride back to the Jersey. He did that well (20 October 2007) and although he lost some games (2006), he kept his eye on his goal and succeeded.
Post 2007 – I think that Jake White was not the right person to take the SA team forward. They needed the challenge of fresh ideas. Divvy has done that really well in 2008 & 2009.
He is not all of a sudden a poor coach, just someone who (like White) fears resting his big names because of supporters who forget that the goal is the RWC. Biggest prize in world rugby. Always has been, always will be. While White rested players in 2006, it nearly cost him his job. However, he kept his role, he pulled in outsiders to help (some say he had no clue – others call it genius to surround yourselves with people who bring different strengths to you), he rested his statesmen and lo and behold – won the cup.
Last point Skopskiet – please tel me if you cheered or sulked on the evening of 20 October 2007? If you cheered, applauded and were happy, give JW a rest.
28 Jul 2010, 21:57 pm
@grant10(grant10)-209: i believe schalk will be very good at 8….seen him play there for the barbarians alongside Mccaw and Collins…he was immense…probably the best game iv seen him play. Besides his passing has improved a lot during this years super14 and i think he could be a good link man….and wont shy away from the rough stuff like spies has done lately
28 Jul 2010, 22:00 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-212: ja….maybe….i am not sure of his hands at the base, but he certainly has improved his link play ….thats for sure.
Ja, hat he will be an improvement on spies is a given….hell that oke has been hugely dissapointing.
28 Jul 2010, 22:00 pm
@grant10(grant10)-210: too much has happened for that to materialize any time soon….as long as the senior players are still around, luke wont get a look in that’s for sure.
28 Jul 2010, 22:02 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-211: JW needs to give it a rest….not us?
Its JW in the headlines proclaiming the desire to coach boks…..hence the debate….
28 Jul 2010, 22:04 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-214: mate….stranger things have happened….
But ja….probably post 2011….if at all…
28 Jul 2010, 22:06 pm
Spies should not come close to a Bok starting berth, I used to think Kankowski was a show pony now I’m beginning to realize that Spies is the arch show pony pretender of all time.
Between Spies and Kankowski I still can’t determine who is worse, and then with Burger in the other loosie position you got the biggest bunch of loose cannon idiots in the world playing at back row.
Same diabolical back row that cost us 19-0 in Newlands and losses in Perth and Durban in 08.
Don’t need any overrated prima donnas
Vermeulen, Alberts, Smith, Potgieter, Van Niekerk, Deysel, Francoise Louw, Koster, Peter Louw (perhaps our answer for a fetcher at 6 – and better than Frans Louw as open side flank and an answer to the likes of Pocock and McCaw), Kuun, Stegmann, Mpho Mbiyozo and some others coming through the ranks we quite well covered through the back row.
28 Jul 2010, 22:08 pm
Just thought I’ll mention that Im not happy with New Zealand.
There is no honour anymore.
Ferries take 3 hours to go from south to north island and so on.
Thats unacceptable.
Rugby in New Zealand has also take a significant number of steps backwards. Only 25,000 people made it to Eden Park.
Thats unacceptable.
Paddy O’Brien is IRB referees manager.
Thats unacceptable.
Lighting at NZ stadiums not adequate.
Thats unacceptable.
28 Jul 2010, 22:10 pm
@grant10(grant10)-215: i tell you what…even though he said he would apply next year…the timing of it all is very sinister from jake…nothing is a coincidence. Im not a JW basher but this was a low blow and did his reputation more harm than good given that he would know exactly what Pdiv is going through after 2006…the last thing Div needed was an ex coach rubbing it in…just by giving media attention to Jake brings the spotlight on Div and comparisons will be made….and what do you know that’s exactly whats happening
28 Jul 2010, 22:10 pm
215 – If JW coached the Boks from 2012 t0 2015 and won the 2015 RWC, would you cheer or complain?
28 Jul 2010, 22:10 pm
i agree skop….
boks need some hard nosed grafting loose forwards as opposed to afkop prima donna loosies that are all flash and f all substance.
Vermeulen or dewalt at 8
juan smith…F louw at 7
brussow…steggmann at openside.
Bissy , chilli…tiaan at 2….
Hard workers….the lot of them….
Why these bloody big name….no game flops week after bloody week i just cant fathom.
28 Jul 2010, 22:11 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-217: Mpho Mbiyozo…was he that guy who played so well against the B&I Lions??
28 Jul 2010, 22:11 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-218: you one strange dude my man…
28 Jul 2010, 22:12 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-218:
28 Jul 2010, 22:13 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-219: its all planned ….for absolute sure…..PDV must be feeling loads of heat right now.
I dont want to imagine the mood if we lose 2 or 3 of the home games….its going to be trench and staaldak times…
28 Jul 2010, 22:14 pm
@David(David)-164: David you will know that I attach particular importance on the 12 in a defensive system, but on attack I must confess I don’t favour a particular type of player.
I know you are a fan of a distributing 12 with a boot – such as Mauger or Giteau.
However, I actually think a 12 with a potent step and immediate acceleration can only do the SA game a world of good. His presence will more often than not speed up our first phase attack, even though he might die with the ball in contact.
More importantly, by stepping off either foot he will also manage to straighten the line, something Olivier seems to struggle with.
The difference De Jongh made in the close channels against Australia was immediate and ominous, and spearheaded the rest of our attack in the final stanzas.
I have doubts about his defense though, but I will stick with him at 12, at least field him there on attack and especially if the 10 stands a little deeper in the pocket.
28 Jul 2010, 22:15 pm
gents….good nite…been a cool chatting with you all….
king skop…keep well my man…
outta here
28 Jul 2010, 22:15 pm
Burger better No.8 than a 6 or a 7, If have to play Burger then play him at 8, but Van Niekerk and Watson still way ahead better than Spies or Kanko or Burger at 8, and Vermeulen would be my go to man in soft conditions. maybe Schalk on hard grounds with Spies off bench.
Bullet you as bamboozled as all the rest
That WC was won against sides all ranked lower than 6th IRB rank
Whites rating should be measured against teams ranked 4th or higher not gimme WC games where England was the only team that really offered any competition whatsoever. Less you rate Fiji or Tonga as real opposition.
28 Jul 2010, 22:17 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-228: Hi Skop, who would you pick between Van Niekerk or Vermeulen, and with which flankers and hooker?
28 Jul 2010, 22:18 pm
228,
RWC WAS WON BY BEATING THE TEAMS GOOD ENOUGH TO GET TO THE QUARTERS, SEMIS AND FINAL
28 Jul 2010, 22:18 pm
@willievz(willievz)-226: Defensive is one of De Jongs strengths….he never let the stormers down …has a big hart…similarly to Aplon
28 Jul 2010, 22:22 pm
Will there be enough milk for cereal, eggs for scrambled eggs or bacon for breakfasts in 2011?
These are some of the key/strategic questions that I need answers for before I would even begin to consider going there 2011.
Imagine you want to have a lovely cup of coffee only to be told that they’re waiting for the ferry to bring the milk later in the afternoon.
That will be unacceptable.
28 Jul 2010, 22:25 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-231: It looks promising so far, but he needs to be tested at international level.
Test rugby is a different animal – completely different intensity in contact and greater skill in ball protection and presentation by ball carriers have been the downfall of many a 12 at test level. How he handles and counters the ruck and maul situations of a more intense nature remains to be seen.
But he certainly does not lack heart and guts.
28 Jul 2010, 22:25 pm
Take it easy mates and cheaters!
28 Jul 2010, 22:26 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232: Depends on whether Ricky makes the squad or not…
28 Jul 2010, 22:30 pm
Friend, I agree with Skop on the quota thing, I still back pdv. Also @G10 Spies was taught to play loose and make his mark there, never in the tight. If pdv thought the like of Ver or Alberts were better suited he’d have chosen them by now
28 Jul 2010, 22:43 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-218:
As the broken record is still spins.
If you dont like taking a ferry,then maybe pay a little more and take the plane across the strait.
25000+ only made it to Eden park cos want half the stadium under construction,being a Sheriff and having that bad an eye sight is a danger to society 6 shooter.
I can understand your problem with Paddy O Brian due to the fact he is a ref although retired he still gets the blame,seems to be typical on this site.
Lighting at Eden Park was bought up a few days before the match,but you have no comeback as the ABs had to play in the same light.
Have i missed anything little cry baby?
28 Jul 2010, 22:46 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232:
Sheriff,there wont be enough milk for your bottle. Please stay home.
28 Jul 2010, 22:49 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232: NZ is the world’s biggest farm. And if you want good coffee, you haven’t tasted the best until you’ve had a NZ “Flat White”. You’ll get one with a silver fern pattern in the foam.
28 Jul 2010, 22:56 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-239:
mmmmmmmm, just a pity they are selling off all the farms to large overseas companies on the sub continent!
28 Jul 2010, 22:57 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-239:
Yeah, don’t choke on it, will you Sheriff?
28 Jul 2010, 22:57 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-239:
Are the numeric numbers 1987 also a pattern in the foam …slowwly dissapearing as you enjoy your coffee…
A4Y’s…
28 Jul 2010, 22:59 pm
Sorry Willievs had to go out and fetch some sons from work not beers from the fridge
Big Joe still the consummate thinking mans No.8 but in the physicality stakes I think Vermeulen shades him though Vermeulen might be a shade slow on quick fields where the games get loose like against Australia in Aus or on the Highveld here.
So would be good to have Vermeulen, Van Niekerk, Potgieter, Deysel, and a grafter fetcher like Brussow if he were fit all in the mix. I reckon we still well enough covered by loose forwards without either of Spies, Kanko, Burger and even if Smith is over the hill there are others to fill the breech.
I would consider developing Alberts as a second row impact player off bench ala Brad Thorn
I reckon a back row of Vermeulen, Potgieter, Pieter Louw or Frans Louw or Brussow or Stegmann would do very well. I’ve never really been awestruck by Burger I reckon his work rate hides his ineffectiveness I reckon there are far more effective players around with less mayhem.
Hookers are also covered by Chili, Liebenberg, Deon Fourie, Burden, Strauss, Bismark.
We need mobile hookers for the modern game, not dead beat out on their feet plodders with legendary halo’s round their heads
28 Jul 2010, 23:05 pm
MacCains owns all the NZ veggie farms
Maybe Woollies all the dairy and meat farms
Though must say NZ’ders seem like an honest hardworking bunch with good solid intentions driving their integrity
Thats why they make for good sports in most disciplines and don’t generally crow about themselves half as much as saffers tend to do.
28 Jul 2010, 23:06 pm
Best balanced loose trio we have when all available:
8 Joe Van Niekerk
7 Jean Deysel
6 Heinrich Brussow
Followed by
8 Spies
7 Smith
6 Stegmann
28 Jul 2010, 23:06 pm
By JJ “take it wif a pinch of salt” Harmse – The signs are there … but Springbok supporters should hope the team’s coach, Peter de Villiers, does not follow in the footsteps of his predecessor this year.
The statistics of De Villiers and Jake White currently look very similar, but with three games left in this year’s Tri-Nations, De Villiers can still improve on White’s performances.
Both coaches achieved a winning percentage of 69,23% (13 played and nine won) in their first year and were successful in their second year as coaches with a winning percentage of 66,67% (12 played and eight won).
Whereas De Villiers has had a success ratio of 57% in his third year, White achieved only 41%. The Springboks won only five out of 12 Tests in 2006.
With three Tests against the All Blacks and Australia coming up and a Grand Slam tour later this year, the chances are slim that De Villiers will fare as badly as White.
An analysis of the two coaches’ careers at the highest level also shows interesting statistics on the claims that De Villiers is achieving success with “White’s team”.
White only had four of the 38 Springboks that became internationals under him in his starting line-up for the World Cup final in 2007. They were JP Pietersen, Frans Steyn, Bryan Habana and Fourie du Preez.
Eleven of the players were therefore not White’s “products”.
For his part, De Villiers had three of the 24 new Springboks under him in his starting line-up for Saturday’s Test in Brisbane. They were Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon and Morné Steyn.
Seven of the Brisbane team became Boks under White. They are Habana, Wynand Olivier, Ruan Pienaar, Pierre Spies, Ryan Kankowski, BJ Botha and Gurthrö Steenkamp.
Statistics show that both coaches did well on transformation.
Sixteen of White’s 38 new Springboks were players of colour (42%) , while 11 of De Villiers’s 24 (46%) fall into that category.
Both coaches have won the Tri-Nations once, but are otherwise not performing well in the competition.
White’s team won seven out of 17 Tri-Nations games, while De Villiers boasts seven wins from 15.
With the World Cup being played in New Zealand next year, one also has to examine the coaches’ records there.
The Springboks never won there in four years under White and the average score against them was 18-31.
However, the 2007 team was without 20 senior Boks.
De Viliers’s team has played in New Zealand five times and won twice, with an average score of 20-28.
White’s four defeats in New Zealand included three scores of 30 or more points against the Boks. In 2005 the Boks lost 27-31, in 2006 the score was 17-35 and in 2007 it was 6-33.
De Villiers’s defeats in 2007 were almost similar: 12-32 and 17-31, with the score 8-19 in the 2008 Wellington defeat.
Players that became Boks under White:
Henno Mentz, Fourie du Preez, Jacques Cronjé, Eddie Andrews, Gerrie Britz, Hanyani Shimange, Tim Dlulane, Solly Tyibilika, Gurthrö Steenkamp, Michael Claassens, Bryan Habana, Jongi Nokwe*, Tonderai Chavhanga, Ricky Januarie, Gary Botha, Meyer Bosman, Wynand Olivier, Johan Muller, Akona Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Pierre Spies, BJ Botha, Ruan Pienaar, Bevin Fortuin, Jaco Pretorius, Frans Steyn, Kabamba Floors, Waylon Murray, Luke Watson, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Peter Grant, Heinke van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Wian du Preez*, Barend Pieterse*, Tiaan Liebenberg*.
(* did not play in tests).
Players that became Boks under De Villiers:
Andries Bekker, Brian Mujati, Tendai Mtawarira, Odwa Ndungane, Schalk Brits, Adriaan Strauss, Heinrich Brüssow, Earl Rose*, Morné Steyn, Zane Kirchner, Heini Adams*, Juan de Jongh, Francois Hougaard, Riaan Viljoen*, Alistair Hargreaves, Ashley Johnson*, Bandise Maku, Dewald Potgieter, Davon Raubenheimer*, Jean Deysel, Gio Aplon, Bjorn Basson, Francois Louw, Flip van der Merwe.
(* did not play in tests).
28 Jul 2010, 23:08 pm
The most amazing stat out of the whole lot is:
“Sixteen of White’s 38 new Springboks were players of colour (42%) , while 11 of De Villiers’s 24 (46%) fall into that category.”
No wonder the Khompela’s and Stofile’s of this world have been quiet, and rightly so.
Since 2004 44% of all new Bok players have been non white.
There’s your transformation.
28 Jul 2010, 23:13 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-244:
Mate, stick to….?? well stick to something……but leave the NZ farms bits out…..
28 Jul 2010, 23:14 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-247:
and how many were one hit wonders, if you can call them that?
28 Jul 2010, 23:25 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-202: Only if they win the World Cup afterwards….
28 Jul 2010, 23:26 pm
Who are the current world champions?
Who are the current 3N champions?
Yes, the Springbokkies that is who.
28 Jul 2010, 23:31 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232: Rather unusual statements. I take you have either been to the PdV school of media management, or have been gathering the wrong type of mushrooms?
28 Jul 2010, 23:41 pm
Bokke will walk off with the spoils in nz at next RWC and u numbskulls will still be s ratching your skulls at the machinations of karma schmarma.
Only thing is someone got to be sharp enough to ping that crook mccaw, he’s a wonderful cheat whom we have alot to learn from
28 Jul 2010, 23:47 pm
You’ll still be whinging about flukety fluke lucky turkey shoot and it won’t make the slightest goddamn difference cos for whatever reason the karma karma chameleon seems to love the Bokke, it must be Bakkies
28 Jul 2010, 23:48 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-243: Yes Skop even though I am still not conviced about Vermeulen, that combo of Brussow, Pogieter and Vermeulen looks very solid, especially if you pick a mobile hooker who can forage at the rucks, taking pressure off the 8 in this regard and therefore allowing Vermeulen concentrate on assisting turnovers and cleaning instead.
I am a big Joe VN fan as an allround rugby player – all the skils and can adapt to any specific game plan with ease. I would love to see him return to SA and contest for a place at the WC.
The reason I posed the question is that Vermeulen and Van Niekerk will probably play it out for one WC position.
28 Jul 2010, 23:53 pm
@cab(cab)-251:
NZ #1 team in the world. Most consistent #1 team in the world. No one hit wonder,unlike a few i can name.
28 Jul 2010, 23:58 pm
Hurricane yeah those rankings are ****, we cracked you lot 4 times last year, how the he’ll could you be rated no 1?
But at the end of the day u don’t get any trophies for a variable no 1 ranking
28 Jul 2010, 23:58 pm
@cab(cab)-254: It’s the drink isn’t it? You are completely off your chops and can’t control that inner urge to shout from the rooftops how great you are. Mummy didn’t cuddle you enough when you were a little boy?
29 Jul 2010, 00:00 am
Muttonbird,
what is wrong with telling the truth? If the kiwis can prounce about after a couple of home wins with half our side missing, is it not equally ok for me to celebrate the trophies in the cabinet?
29 Jul 2010, 00:04 am
@cab(cab)-253:
Will we shall see wont we. Unlike you i am not so sure that NZ or SA could take this. At the momemnt NZ are in a better position and situation than the Bok,but does not mean any these 2 team will amke the final,only someone arrogant would believe its in the bag,isnt that right Cab. Remember you will have either OZ or Ireland in the Qaurters,both these teams have beaten Boks on a regular basis. And from then on it will get harder. Sorry but there is no hiding in this RWC.
29 Jul 2010, 00:05 am
@cab(cab)-257:
You are a dreamer,4 times??
Dont be a ****
29 Jul 2010, 00:07 am
@cab(cab)-259: Yeah, that’s fine to crow about what the Boks have got now but be careful crowing about what you think they’ll have in 2 months, or 14 months.
Also, I’m confused when you say karma favours the Boks but everything else I read here suggests the whole World (and bizzarely, the Irish in particular) is against them.
29 Jul 2010, 00:08 am
@cab(cab)-257:
Oh you want to know why you guys are not #1 in the world.
Its based on Maths Cab,something by the looks of it you are not very good at.
IF you didnt lose all your NH game over the last few season and lost to two county pub teams then maybe you could be called #1 in the world,but you are not.
Its really funny how some of you guys cant see that NZ are a better team at the moment,actually they were a better team in 2007 as well.
29 Jul 2010, 00:10 am
Hurricane
are you trying to tell me that you don’t believe nz will be in the final?
Hahahahaha
who are u okes trying to fool with such false modesty?
Remember what happened after nz were well beaten by france, it was a national shock, you’d all booked your tickets for the final.
Let us at least be honest here
29 Jul 2010, 00:11 am
@cab(cab)-257:
Correct no trophys but still the best team on the planet.
Maybe you might get there with your double rating points like 2007,only to get smashed back to earth ( and #2 postion ) by the best team on the planet
29 Jul 2010, 00:13 am
‘still the best team on the planet’ and you accuse me of arrogance?
A world cup, a 3n trophy, a s14 trophy suggests something different
29 Jul 2010, 00:15 am
@cab(cab)-264:
Am being honest.
Its a RWC,one bad game and its all over. You cant tell me SA wont play a bad game can you.
And you seem to be forgetting about other teams that can and have beaten SA lately. Dont be so arrogant to think SA will be in the final,cos if they dont make it,you will be the one i will be gunning for on this site
29 Jul 2010, 00:17 am
@cab(cab)-266:
Super 14 trophy has nothing to do with Internationals,your not that stupid are you?
Best team on the planet due to the fact that we are,not arrogant at all. I didnt say you guys wernt the 3N and RWC holders did i?
I find it arrogant to say that SA will take the RWC in 2011 when we all know there are other teams playing.
29 Jul 2010, 00:18 am
Hurricane you welcome to come gunning, but I merely expressing my opinion that the bokke will slap nz on their backyard – it could be a national disaster – i am therefore providing you fellas with a service – forewarned is forearmed.
29 Jul 2010, 00:20 am
Right now it’s only a matter of time to see who is right, this reminds me so much of 2006 it’s frightening
29 Jul 2010, 00:21 am
@cab(cab)-269:
I am sure you said that this year as well,oh well as you say there is always next year to look forward to. But take my warning,your road to the RWC final will be a rocky one,not like 2007
29 Jul 2010, 00:23 am
@cab(cab)-270:
It does,and you guys were saying the same things.
McCaw the cheat.
Refs are garbage.
Kiwis are K@K
It is frightening,but unlike 2007,you will have to play a couple of nations that are rated in the top 5 teams in the world.
29 Jul 2010, 00:28 am
Kiwis are good, just not ad good ad the Boks
Mccaw is an astoundingly good cheat, i have always been in awe of how he stays on the park
Refs are ok, but need a great one like Barnesey to catch Mccaw
29 Jul 2010, 00:29 am
@cab(cab)-273:
Anyway please enlighten me. Name the 4 times SA beat us last year
29 Jul 2010, 00:30 am
My d ick is bigger than yours……….nah nah nah Get real guys FFS!
29 Jul 2010, 00:32 am
My **** is not that big, but the bokke are better than the abs
29 Jul 2010, 00:33 am
@cab(cab)-273:
And in 2008,wasnt it SA calling Barnes a useless ref as well?
29 Jul 2010, 00:35 am
@whatever(whatever)-275:
Honestly Whatever if thats the case there would be no contest.
@cab(cab)-276:
Excellent Cab,keep saying that to yourself as long as you can sleep at night all is good.
29 Jul 2010, 00:36 am
Hurricane, yeah he had a bad day, I think it was a one-off- gotta hit the sack – look forward to hearing your congruatulations when rightfully beat you okes in sa in the few weeks
29 Jul 2010, 00:50 am
@cab(cab)-279:
Bah looks like you dont want to answer post 274.
Goodnight then
29 Jul 2010, 00:52 am
let me enlighten you something about karma chameleon schmarma
Its already written in the stars who is going to win the WC in 2011, and nothing you or I or PdV or Jake or Graham Henry or Robbie Deans or Martin Johnson or Declan Kidney or Marc Lievremont or Warren Gatland can do about it.
All they can do is prepare for it like they going to win it, but to determine who it will be only fate and the stars know that much.
Ultimately it will be won by the team and country who are destined to win it and who deserve to win it, and it could very well be SA again or it might be NZ#s dream of dreams to take it a second time at home.
World Cup competitions like all big extravaganza sporting events eg Olympics etc. tend to separate the men from the boys, but also what tends to happen is that in such competitions the real underlying psychological qualities or lack thereof come to the fore.
Its under such high pressure psychological circumstances where teams and individuals either fold and capitulate to the negative tendencies of either arrogance or fear or else pull through to show perseverance and resolve.
However as I have already explained above, its already a fete-a-compli who the winner will be, only problem is no-one without any clairvoyant visionary capacity know who that winner is.
So like any good game of chess, once the first pawn is set into play the game is on and one small move after the next results in the ultimate check mate, which to all intents and purposes has already been decided by the law of cause and effect.
29 Jul 2010, 01:47 am
@skopskiet(yliad)-281:
Inhale……hold, hold, hold……….exhale………..aaahhh, headrushes……….that is good sh itttte maaannnn!
29 Jul 2010, 03:01 am
Man you must be hurting sooooo much Cab. As one who believed the SA dominance garbage, surely you’ve learnt not to expect so much.
Let it all out son, not good bottled up like that. Funny you mention injured players, no mention last year of that though when it afflicted Nz??
SA may very well win the WC next year, and I’ll congratulate them if they do, I know IF Nz win it, you’ll have some excuse as to why they did so.
The fact you laugh about Barnes, when we all know how poor he was on that semi shows how much your hurting.
Hope that sort of thing doesn’t happen to you guys next year, as kiwi refs have been organized for every game you play.
29 Jul 2010, 03:11 am
CAB bwhaahahahahahahahahahahahaahhhahahahaahaha
keep hurting mate, its fun to read..
29 Jul 2010, 03:21 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-284: Yeah I reckon, he is just epitomising the arrogance that people think of when south africans are talked of, must be a ***** for the ones who don’t have such huge opinions of themselves
29 Jul 2010, 03:22 am
Check this…
Richie McCaw admitted on Wednesday that he had operated outside the laws of the game against the Springboks on several occasions, but said that it’s all part of rugby.
Such a nice thing for the captain to say…since when is cheating part of rugby?
29 Jul 2010, 03:29 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-286:
You have to be kidding me?
Since when is biting and eye gouging a part of rugby?
So every player dosnt try to do something during the game to get on top. Habana spends most of his time offside to score his tries. We all know it and see it. Burger comes from the side so often its not funny,but it seems only one person i the world that pushes the boundries and that is McCaw.
29 Jul 2010, 03:31 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-286: how about protest armbands, are they part of rugby?
29 Jul 2010, 03:34 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-286:
Ritchie is honing his post rugby skills… He is going into politics. Best defense if offense.
29 Jul 2010, 03:38 am
How good is he? I completely understand why this guy is rated as the best in the business.
If circumstance permitted, could anyone here honestly say they would not have Ritchie in their team?
29 Jul 2010, 03:40 am
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-287:
Look, we can discuss this till the cows come home. The point I am making is that for a captain to come out and say he cheated and then gloss over it by saying it is part of the game is not on according to me. He is the captain after all and should set the example.
Eye gouging and biting should be treated as severely as the sanctions allow and have as little place in rugby as any other cheating.
29 Jul 2010, 03:43 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-288:
How does an armband influence the outcome of a game? Answer that and we can talk.
For the record, the armband fiasco was as stupid as the current rumblings of conspiracy theories and selling more WC tickets. But don’t let this make you take your eye off the ball…
29 Jul 2010, 03:49 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-292: you dont think the protest helped them in the 3Ns afterwards, especially games in SA, the ref was intimidated
lmao
I think its strange for him to publically say that, so Id like to see you at least quote your source so we can ascertain its authenticity…
29 Jul 2010, 03:54 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-293:
Surely you not implying the refs cheated last year
Article is on news24, his own words.
29 Jul 2010, 04:00 am
Probably comes from his interview with Duncan Johnstone
You can find it on NZ Rugby Heaven
Richie McCaw has given a frank account of how he plays the referees as well as the opposition to maintain his mantle as the best openside flanker in test rugby.
The All Blacks skipper dominates opponents with his sheers skills and infuriates opposition coaches – most notably South African Peter de Villiers – with his tactics.
He has been labelled a cheat many times during his 85-test career but makes no apologies for his style of game.
He says he has a clear idea of how far he can push the boundaries in the most competitive area of the game at the breakdowns.
“If you go in gun shy you’re not going to have an impact,” McCaw told media as he prepares to tackle Australia in Melbourne this weekend.
“I think the big thing is to understand where you sit and what you’re going to get away with and what you’re not.
“As long as you’re not putting the team under heaps of pressure you’ve got to still be at the point of knowing what you can get away with and what you can’t and the odd thing you might get wrong.”
He had a tough time in the last test against the Springboks in Wellington with many considering he may have been lucky to avoid a yellow card.
“I think I gave away four penalties or it might have been five and there were a couple of them I was disappointed with.”
It was a matter of reading the referee as much as his opponents at times.
“How do I say it? What I think is right and what he (the ref) thinks is right could be different so you’ve got to figure it out pretty quickly.
“I always think the things I’m trying to do are the right things and if he’s penalising me for some reason I think ‘geez I’m not going to get away with that today’ or ‘that’s not going to work with this ref’.
“Each ref is a little bit different. I have a fairly good understanding of where they’ll sit, just through experiences.”
He doesn’t believe he has a privileged position as captain to exploit the nuances that come with being a No 7.
“I wouldn’t have thought so. They pride themselves on making sure they call it the same way no matter who it is. There are times I get it the other way perhaps.
“I do know what they are going to do and I always have a yarn in the shed before the game as to what they’ve seen previously or if they have got ay concerns. Hopefully they’ll tell me if they think I’m getting it all wrong.”
McCaw has revelled in the new rule interpretations and been delighted at the ability of his fellow back rowers Kieran Read and Jerome Kaino to take a bit of pressure off him.
He’s not just a scavenger now … he is showing his value as a link player as well in the high-tempo game the All Blacks have played.
Undoubtedly the player of his generation, he is being likened to Sean Fitzpatrick in terms of his leadership which has certainly grown.
It’s been hardened by some tough experiences – most notably the World Cup quarterfinal loss to France in Cardiff where the All Blacks fell apart under immense pressure.
There’s a sense that is starting to change.
There’s also a feeling that the fast game the All Blacks are playing is based around super quick ball and plenty of that is being delivered by McCaw’s marvellous skills under the watchful eyes of referees.
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He has South African whistleman Craig Joubert to deal with this weekend and a growing force in Australian flanker David Pocock.
It should be quite a night and one thing is for sure – McCaw as captain and flanker – will be right in the thick of it.
29 Jul 2010, 04:01 am
Dont see where he is admitting to cheating.
29 Jul 2010, 04:03 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-291:
Can you please show me this post where he said in his OWN words he cheated.
I am not calling you a lier but if your just quoting something from what a Journalist has said then sorry its worth nothing.
29 Jul 2010, 04:05 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-294: having read your source (a SA website), I could not find him once state that he cheats..
“I made a few mistakes. I think the important thing is to know what you will get away with. But I undoubtedly made mistakes,” said McCaw.
so your taking the reporters view that he categorically states he cheated? ummmm enjoy the rest of your day..
at least PDV has been quoted talking about coaching his team to cheat? (Cape Times Hoskin Interview)..
29 Jul 2010, 04:07 am
@RugbyRulz(RugbyRulz)-295:
If thats it then what the hell are we talking about here. He didnt call himself a cheat.
29 Jul 2010, 04:25 am
He says he will continue playing his way as long as it does not place pressure on the team.
McCaw also admitted prior to Saturday’s Tri-Nations Test against the Wallabies in Melbourne that he was fortunate not to concede more penalties in Wellington.
You can add the article from NZ which also stated he cheats but that he is your cheat, so what.
Look, I know he is seen as a god in NZ so it is a fight I will never win against you. Lets just move on…
So who will be getting the rub of the green on Saturday, McCaw or Pocock?
29 Jul 2010, 04:42 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-300:
He says he will continue playing his way as long as it does not place pressure on the team
so hes going to continue playing direct to the ball, to continue making great tackles and providing link support…
McCaw also admitted prior to Saturday’s Tri-Nations Test against the Wallabies in Melbourne that he was fortunate not to concede more penalties in Wellington.
couldnt every flanker ( Brussouw, Smith, Pocock etc) say the same after a game?
as for saturday, whoever plays to the refs interpretation the best..
29 Jul 2010, 04:49 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-301:
Poppa, I am really not going to fight this fight any longer. Suffice to say, he was penalised 5 times and admitted he should have been blown up more…
Enough on this, any news on the surface, when are they looking at it?
29 Jul 2010, 05:05 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-301:
Hi Poppa. I agree that McCaw can’t be considered a cheat when you consider the speed at which decisions must be made under pressure at the breakdown. If you consider the number of fouls given in most team sports, everyone would be considered cheats.
Cheating is what Andy Hayden did when he pretended to be pushed out of the lineout.
Cheating is what the ABs used to do when they’d cynically infinge to give away a possible 3 points instead of 5/7, hence the introduction of the professional foul.
Cheating is also what the ABs used to “innocently” do, until the concept of “lazy running” was identified as intentional obstruction.
29 Jul 2010, 05:13 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-302: so admitting he should have been blown up more makes him a cheat?
too much… enjoy man…
29 Jul 2010, 05:19 am
@David(David)-303:
Good to see one eye is working
29 Jul 2010, 05:20 am
@David(David)-303:
whatever David, I forgot how clean and squeaky the bokke are too mate, lets not start a mindless tete-a-tete..
29 Jul 2010, 05:22 am
A miss perception is involved here.
We all tend to forget the Boks were woeful in 2007 too, lost in Durban to the ABs and nearly lost in CT to the Wallabies but for two freaky drop goals of F Styen.
If you believe that beating the Poms twice and the Argies once to win the RWC 07 may repeat itself in NZ next year, then no worries
If on the other hand the RWC ’95 will be repeated with Aus, France and the ABs’ in the way, then the Boks have no chance, not with PdV and the passengers baggage they carry currently anyway.
29 Jul 2010, 05:23 am
tete-a-tete…….
thats very polite!
29 Jul 2010, 05:29 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-307:
Mate, I think the Boks do bloody well considering all the baggage thats goes with SA Rugby. Many other nations would have imploded years ago!
Can you imagine if the Poms had to choose 5 Scotsmen in their team and their next coach had to come from up north?
No disrespect to the Scotts of course!
29 Jul 2010, 05:30 am
v.tr.
1. To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
2. To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
3. To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
4. To elude; escape: cheat death.
v.intr.
1. To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
3. Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
4. Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base
Make up your own mind Poppa…
29 Jul 2010, 05:32 am
One developement that went unnoticed is the Boks’ sponsorship that Sasol decided to drop.
Being a proud sponsor for so many years, the decision by Sasol isn’t just based on economic considerations if there were any and I wonder these considerations are?
29 Jul 2010, 05:33 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-306:
I was only pointing out how instrumental the ABs have been in the move to eliminate cheating.
29 Jul 2010, 05:34 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-310:
looks like the history of South Africa to me.
29 Jul 2010, 05:35 am
@whatever(whatever)-309:
Yeah, they might actually win something again.
29 Jul 2010, 05:36 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-311:
SAB might have offered more money?
29 Jul 2010, 05:38 am
@whatever(whatever)-309:
You are right, they would implode, we are much more determined and rugby means a lot more here so several aged players managed to carry a huge ballast on their backs, question is: for how long
I was never been a great fan of JW but he redeemed himself by bringing on Eddie Jones, telling us he is humble enough.
29 Jul 2010, 05:39 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-310: bart, where has McCaw stated he “cheated” show me that line… you cant can you?
he admitting to making mistakes on a rugby field, not like Bakkies mistakes, but mistakes..
no where does he say he “cheats”
but continue arguing the point, it gives you guys something else to blame apart from the poor efforts of your own team..
29 Jul 2010, 05:42 am
@David(David)-315:
I am not sure, SAB used to be the sponsors in the 1990s and then dropped them too.
I thought SAB denied they will pick up the sponsorship or so said Robyn Chalmers their spokeperson?
29 Jul 2010, 05:42 am
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-313:
Generalising again Hurri…I assume you referring to SA politicians?
29 Jul 2010, 05:47 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-319:
Hmmm looks like the smiley face didnt work.
I wont bother answering your question cos you seem to be a little sensitive
29 Jul 2010, 05:47 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-318:
Haven’t they taken over the sponsorship under the Castle brand? I wondered whether this was a tactic to promote it during the WC next year.
29 Jul 2010, 05:48 am
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-313:
Though thats what the pakeha did to the Moari bro
29 Jul 2010, 05:52 am
@whatever(whatever)-322:
lol
The buggers they did
29 Jul 2010, 05:54 am
@Hurricane(Hurricane)-320:
Hurri, I am generally not big on smilies ;-( …so I assume you missed the
in my post…I will try harder next time! 
29 Jul 2010, 05:54 am
@whatever(whatever)-322: is that a generalisation?
29 Jul 2010, 05:56 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-324:
Oh feck, where is Ig when you want him…
29 Jul 2010, 06:11 am
@poppa69(poppa69)-325:
No, a joke
29 Jul 2010, 06:35 am
@David(David)-321:
Could be, I just quoted what I read in Business Week on Monday.
and the Boks were dropped by Sasol, not a vise verse, mind you?
At any rate, when the Springbok team is dropped by an iconic S. African sponsor such as Sasol, SOME questions usually raised.
Not this time?
29 Jul 2010, 06:36 am
@whatever(whatever)-327: is that a generalisation too?
29 Jul 2010, 06:45 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-328:
Castle is to take over, they have been involved with SA rugby much longer than Sasol and more iconic you can hardly find.
However, I do understand that Snarfu in their wisdom went overboard in their asking price to the extend where Sasol just said, well stuff you then, and moved on…
How much they will get from Castle I don’t know, my guess is less than they originally asked for…
29 Jul 2010, 06:54 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-330:
SARB have been losing ground to the Heineken group in SA, so they might have been prepared to spend more than usual to get back market share. Graham Mackay hates losing, especially on his home turf.
29 Jul 2010, 06:55 am
Sorry, that should be SAB, not SARB.
29 Jul 2010, 06:55 am
@Hondo(Hondo)-328: you’re quite a selective reader hondo! Always negative about south africa, again you’re wrong doos!
“We’re very proud of our association with
the Springboks and had certainly hoped our
significantly increased offer would have
found traction with the union,” said Sasol
senior group executive Lean Strauss.
“As a business, we must take current market
conditions into account, while at the same
time recognising the enormous value this
iconic team has brought to our brand. We
believe our offer reflected this approach
but respect SA Rugby’s decision to consider
alternative sponsorship options. ”
Saru thinks their brand is worth more! Whether that idea has merit or not is debatable but whoever advises their marketing dept in terms of brand value has made a big call in rejecting the renewed Sasol deal.
29 Jul 2010, 06:58 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-333:
As I said, snarfu got greedy…SAB may have paid more if David is correct, not sure it will be what was asked for.
29 Jul 2010, 07:00 am
So now it’s official, and probably the reason PdeV persisted with Ricky.
London – South Africa flyhalf Ruan Pienaar has agreed his release from the Sharks and will join Ulster at the start of September, it was announced on Wednesday.
The 26-year-old, who was part of the 2007 World Cup-winning set-up and also plays at scrumhalf, is currently part of the Springbok squad competing in the Tri-Nations, but had agreed his move to Ulster in May.
Pienaar, who will join fellow South Africa caps Johann Muller and Pedrie Wannenburg in Belfast, was delighted with the agreement.
“I’m very excited about the change – I have been thinking about going to the Northern Hemisphere for a couple of seasons now and when the opportunity to join Ulster came up I was very interested,” he said.
Continues Below ?
Pienaar’s two-year deal will commence on September 1 although he will be allowed to play for South Africa if selected for their Tri-Nations finale against Australia on September 4.
Ulster operations director David Humphreys said: “We’re delighted to have concluded the contract negotiations around Ruan’s move to Ulster. I would like to thank the Natal Sharks for their help in the matter and for agreeing to Ruan’s early release from his Sharks contract.
“We look forward to welcoming Ruan to Belfast in September. He is without doubt one of the biggest signings made in Ulster Rugby’s history and I’m confident that he will be a key asset to us both on and off the pitch.” – AFP
29 Jul 2010, 07:02 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-330: according to saru their brand had been independantly evaluated at 65 mil. Sasol did not agree with that assessment.
29 Jul 2010, 07:03 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-330: according to saru their brand had been independantly evaluated at R65 mil. Sasol did not agree with that assessment.
29 Jul 2010, 07:05 am
@mamma_lou(mamma_lou)-336:
Can’t argue with Sasol…
29 Jul 2010, 07:08 am
@mamma_lou(mamma_lou)-337:
Casn’t argue with Sasol…
29 Jul 2010, 07:10 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-339:
Dammit!!! Can’t…where the hell did the ‘s’ came from?!
29 Jul 2010, 07:13 am
@Slartibartfast(Slartibartfast)-340:
Gollum, my precious.
29 Jul 2010, 07:53 am
Breaking news… Eskom have signed on for four years as the Bok’s new sponsor!
Both are short of energy, lack a game-plan to cope with future conundrums… and are headed by over-paid buffoons!
29 Jul 2010, 07:57 am
@money_man(money_man)-342:
Apparently there’s enough gas emanating from Peter De Villiers’ gob to negate the R65mill in sponsorship fees… and power both the Ciskei and Transkei from the word go!
29 Jul 2010, 07:58 am
I would like to see similar team to the one below in the remainder of this years Tri-Nations:
1) Gurthru Steenkamp
Pierre Spies
2) John Smit
3) BJ Botha
4) Danie Rossouw
5) Victor Matfield
6) Sckalk Burger
7) Juan Smith
9) Francois Hougaard
10) Morne Steyn
11) Brian Habana
12) Jean De Villiers
13) Juan de Jonge
14) Gerhard van der Heever
15) Francois Steyn
16) Gary Botha
17) CJ van der Linde
18) Flip van der Merwe
19) Duanne Vermeulen
20) Ruan Pienaar
21) Wynand Olivier
22) Gio Aplon
And for the end of year tour:
1) The Beast
Duanne Vermeulen
2) Gary Botha
3) Jannie Du Plessis
4) Bakkies Botha
5) Ross Skeate
6) Deon Steggman
7) Juan Smith (cap)
9) Francois Hougaard
10) Peter Grant
11) Gio Aplon
12) Wynand Olivier
13) Juan De Jonge
14) Gerhard van der Heever
15) Francois Steyn
16) Chiliboy
17) Werner Kruger
18) Flip van der Merwe
19) Francois Louw
20) Sarel Pretorius
21) Meyer Bosman
22) Joe Pietersen
29 Jul 2010, 08:42 am
@iceman(iceman)-344:
I think there is a better chance of that end of season tour team winning now Iceman, then your remainder of the tri nations team. The current team look so tired and short of confidence/ideas, that I think it would be best to give them a rest now and give the fringe players ago now, to prepare them for the End of year tour. If the Boks get spanked in Europe at the end of season tour many teams will go into games against South Africa confident of victory, when at the start of this season that wasn’t the case. The situation is starting to get very serious and the Boks need a change somewhere.
29 Jul 2010, 11:05 am
McCaw admits to ‘cheating’
2010-07-28 22:30Email | Print
Richie McCaw (Gallo Images)
Hendrik Cronjé
Bloemfontein – Richie McCaw admitted on Wednesday that he had operated outside the laws of the game against the Springboks on several occasions, but said that it’s all part of rugby.
The All Black captain was penalised five times against the Springboks in Wellington according to website ruggastats.com. This infuriated coach Peter de Villiers and a number of his senior players.
Irishman Alain Rolland was the referee who failed to punish McCaw with a yellow card for his transgressions at the breakdown and will again be the referee when the Boks play the Wallabies at Loftus Versfeld on August 28.
“I made a few mistakes. I think the important thing is to know what you will get away with. But I undoubtedly made mistakes,” said McCaw.
He says he will continue playing his way as long as it does not place pressure on the team.
McCaw also admitted prior to Saturday’s Tri-Nations Test against the Wallabies in Melbourne that he was fortunate not to concede more penalties in Wellington.
He said he would be wary of South African referee Craig Joubert in the weekend’s match against Australia.
McCaw and his counterpart from the Wallabies, David Pocock, nevertheless showed that there is still place for fetching flanks in the mould of Heinrich Brüssow in Test rugby irrespective of law changes.
Brüssow looks set to be available to join the Boks on their end-of-season tour to Europe.
McCaw also noted that Pocock had frustrated the Boks a lot at the breakdowns.
“He had a big impact there. The Springboks were also not as accurate as they would have liked to be,” said McCaw.
Pocock was penalised three times according to ruggastats.com.
29 Jul 2010, 11:50 am
@RugbyStudent(RugbyStudent)-346:
‘McCaw admits to cheating’
but, how come they didnt include the quote then ?
and “McCaw also admitted……. that he was fortunate not to concede more penalties in Wellington”.
so, why didnt they include that quite either ?
where oh where did McCaw “admit” these charges ?
The crucial line, not included here, appears to be
“What I think is right and what he (the ref) thinks is right could be different so you’ve got to figure it out pretty quickly.”.
So which are the words where he ‘admits’ that he “cheats” ?
29 Jul 2010, 11:55 am
It’s a case of cultural differences. Richies cheating is looked upon with favour and awe by his countryman and myself, which sets off the violent reprisals of bakkies who feels a touch-up is a more honest form of justice.
I dunno what the correct moral answer is, but I do know our boys need to start cheating like mccaw if we are too compete within the current rules.
29 Jul 2010, 12:00 pm
David makes another excellent point on the cheating of the australasians with their lazy running, morally who can blame the more innocent honest godfearing bakkies for trying to get some sort of justice over an insanely unfair system, think of him as a sort of sherrif like wyat Earp who cannot stand for injustice.
29 Jul 2010, 12:10 pm
Richie is the ultimate outlaw vagabond flouting the laws with crass abandon, but Wyat Earp restored some order to the west with the barrel of his gun.
29 Jul 2010, 12:39 pm
@cab(cab)-349:
a headbutt
into
the
BACK
of a players head.
Thats not cheating. Thats just hurting yourself isnt it ?!
Why bother hitting back when you cant do any more damage than theyre dumb enough to do to themselves ?!
29 Jul 2010, 12:51 pm
BP
surely such extreme behaviour must have a cause, and let’s face it, causes don’t come much more annoying than jimmy cowan who is like a jimmied up version of matt Dawson.
It is perhaps wrong of bakkies to draw do quickly for his gun, but cowan is another outlaw.
29 Jul 2010, 12:52 pm
@cab(cab)-349:
“David makes another excellent point on the cheating of the australasians with their lazy running, morally who can blame the more innocent honest godfearing bakkies for trying to get some sort of justice over an insanely unfair system, think of him as a sort of sherrif like wyat Earp who cannot stand for injustice.” – CAB-349
Lazy running doesn’t risk injuring a fellow player permanently with a cowardly king-hit. Bakkies has got to be the dumbest munter ever to pull on boots. He doesn’t step on the field to play rugby, he wants to hurt someone.
29 Jul 2010, 12:54 pm
Boys boys I ask you if the only honest ref in town, aka barnesey, has been hounded out of town – how are other teams to get justice?
29 Jul 2010, 12:59 pm
Muttonbird
did you ever see Colin Meads play? Go watch some of the tapes. A national hero in the land where sheep are nervous. Meads would not only kick hit but kick ppl when down and grab their gonads and twits – one of the dirties most ruthless heartless ******** to ever set foot on a rugby field – he made bakkies look like a saint and did u ever hear the bokke moaning?
29 Jul 2010, 13:06 pm
All Black success is hardly based on open running rugby, which is the modern myth that has been perpetuated. No it’s bases on ruthless packs who have ain’t and distinguished list of thugs ranging from meads, shaw, to loe and thorne.
Brutal barbarity mixed with an extremely sly undehanded win at all costs approach, which have produced some of the finest actors of innocence ever produced in sport, goddammit kronfeld, fitzy and now mccaw are my alltime heros. Awesome cheating crooks
29 Jul 2010, 13:09 pm
@cab(cab)-355:
Well you are moaning now aren’t you?
According to your theory, Meads only did it because he was innocent, honest, and provoked.
T.V. has changed all that **** on the field. Because the mummies and the children can see the game so clearly now, it has to be visually clean. No room for the Bakkies or Flavells of rugby.
29 Jul 2010, 13:16 pm
Oh ja, flavell was another one that reeked of filth, turned national hero in the land where men are dirty buggers and sheep are fast
29 Jul 2010, 13:21 pm
Mind u we did have johan roux who ate half of fitzys ear just before big kobus told him it was illegal to create van gough’s, he was psychotic.
29 Jul 2010, 13:30 pm
@cab(cab)-358: Flavell’s never been a hero here. He had a great rugby mind and huge knowledge of the history of the game but when he stepped across the line he lost it and therefore had to go. Bakkies is the same – these players are not able to be rehabilitated.
29 Jul 2010, 13:57 pm
I aint stressing about the state of affairs…all we need is a little TLC for the players & then it’s ON! very difficult 2 rule the world for so long…
29 Jul 2010, 14:00 pm
@cab(cab)-352:
need I repeat myself
the
BACK
of his head. The hardest
EMPTIEST
part of his entire body.
It takes the incre’mental limits of DUMB DUMBER DUMBEST to whole new hyper-drive levels of DUMBness.
29 Jul 2010, 14:39 pm
The World 15 of Thugby:
1. Richard Loe (NZ).
2. Danial Dubroca (spelling) (Fr).
3. The Cannibal, Johan Roux, (SA).
4. Marty (mr asia) Johnson,(Pomgolia).
5. Bakkies. (Capt and Undisputed King) (SA).
6. The Eye Gouger Burger, (SA)
7. Cowboy Mark Shaw, (NZ).
8. Lawrence Dalaggio, (Mr Coke fiend), (Pomgolia).
9. Matt Henjak. (Quokka killer) (OZ).
10. The Butcher, ***** James. (SA, and Vice-Capt).
11. Some Scrotum twisting Frog. (fr)
12. The Chiropractor. (Samoa).
13. Another Gallic piece of filth. (Fr)
14. Yet another (kick them while they are down) Frog.
15. Some Frog.(fr)
29 Jul 2010, 14:56 pm
LoL Cane
that is quite a list
was dubroca the French prop in the 60s?
Actually bakkies must clean up his act, seems like you were right all along, even loe did not headbutt scrummies from behind
29 Jul 2010, 15:09 pm
@cab(cab)-364:
Richard Loe did two or three utterly dispicable deeds.
-Elbow to the face of Paul Carrosa (Ozzie Wing) after he had scored a test match try. A full force body drop.
-Eye Gouged Matthew Cooper in a NPC Match. For which he got a 6 months suspention.
- And something else.
29 Jul 2010, 18:35 pm
Yeah I remember the incident on wee carozza, but did not know of local NPC filth.
31 Jul 2010, 06:07 am
@Black Panther(Black Panther)-351:
Nope numnuts… the back of the head is where the more serious injuries occur hence striking to the back of the head is banned in MMA!
31 Jul 2010, 07:06 am
@Muttonbird(Muttonbird)-353: dont worry about Cab, hes been whinging more then me, which says something…
of course hed try to justify Bakkies, remember most of these guys supported the whole armband fiasco, they just dont understand the difference between hard and dirty..
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