Learning from past lashings
28 Jul 2010
JON CARDINELLI says that for the Boks to move forward, they have to look back at the successes and failures of 2006.
The Springboks have three weeks to reflect on what was their worst Australasian tour in four years. Only the three heavy defeats of 2006 (the 49-0 thrashing in Brisbane, the 35-17 hiding in Wellington and the 20-18 disappointment in Sydney) rank higher in the Tri-Nations’ Hall of Shame. Peter de Villiers said he doesn’t know where they went so wrong, a frightening admission one year out from a World Cup.
But talk of replacing De Villiers is pointless. The player-driven system is no secret, but the reality is De Villiers and his assistants are contracted until the end of the 2011 World Cup. If Saru fires them now, they’ll be paying them win bonuses even if the Boks defend their title under a new set of coaches.
Springbok rugby needs to make do with what it’s got, and if De Villiers, Gary Gold and Dick Muir are going to spend these three weeks wisely, they’ll be doing some research. Former Bok assistant coach Allister Coetzee has already compared the two campaigns, and suggested all is not lost. The big question is, will De Villiers take heed of history?
Jake White’s Boks finished last in the 2006 Tri-Nations and went on to lose two out of three on their end-of-year tour. The Sanzar tournament was lost on the away leg, but the Boks saved some face with two late wins. White then took a number of youngsters to Ireland and England, leaving several senior statesmen in South Africa to rest ahead of the 2007 Super 14.
The Boks lost 32-16 in Dublin and blew a half-time lead in the first Test at Twickenham to lose 23-21. They broke the Twickenham curse a week later when Andre Pretorius kicked four drop goals in the 25-14 win, a victory that began South Africa’s dominance over England in the build up to the 2007 World Cup.
While that was important, the value of playing youngsters and leaving the senior guys at home to rest was evident. Frans Steyn emerged as an important figure on the tour, and in 2007, the Sharks and Bulls contested the Super 14 final. South Africa rode the momentum into the World Cup.
De Villiers needs to keep this in mind when planning for the remaining games of the Tri-Nations and the subsequent Grand Slam tour. Playing his best available players and preventing the embarrassment of losing at home is imperative. It will also ensure they prevent a 3-0 drubbing at the hands of either the All Blacks or Australia, which would be a massive psychological blow before a World Cup year.
Following the conclusion of this tournament, De Villiers must decide on who to rest and who to take to the United Kingdom and Europe. Fourie du Preez and Andries Bekker have already been ruled out with injury, and the latter blow may suggest Victor Matfield should tour. But judging by the amount of rugby the 33-year-old has endured this year, and the adverse effect it’s had on his performance, it would be best to give him time to recuperate.
Persisting with the youngsters and alternative combinations should be the objective on the Grand Slam tour. The World Cup is the priority, and if defending their title means risking a few defeats on the Grand Slam tour, then so be it.
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368 Comments
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28 Jul 2010, 13:36 pm
I did not know the coach and his assistants were contracted until the end of RWC 2011.
In that case, my tuppence worth of doing away with the forwards and backs coach and appointing a specialist defense and technical skills coach is not feasible.
But I don’t agree that playing our most experienced players in the home tests will necessarily result in us getting a positive result.
Don’t be surprised if we get another 3-0 drubbing at home.
28 Jul 2010, 13:36 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-48:
Under JW that lot needed consistency, under PDV they need management, and a new bunch need consistency…
28 Jul 2010, 13:37 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-48:
But the lesson stays the same does it not?
Identify the players you want to take to the World Cup and manage them correctly.
Isn’t that what this article is about?
28 Jul 2010, 13:37 pm
@Dawn(Dawn)-23: That’s not news. The book was called that.
28 Jul 2010, 13:41 pm
Vir Peter de Villiers:
Ek wil net noem dat ek 100% agter jou staan deur hierdie tyd. Jy het my volle ondersteuning in jou doen en late, en verdien dieselfde kans wat Jake White gehad het om dinge reg te stel na sy nagmerrie seisoen.
Hopelik sal ons net sterker en wyser as ‘n rugby-nasie anderkant uitkom.
28 Jul 2010, 13:41 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-52:
Dont agree so much, given the selection on the EOYT in 2006 and in the away leg of the 3N in 2007 Jake definately managed his players ensuring they are not overplayed.
28 Jul 2010, 13:43 pm
49 FANTASTIC….
Once again, whose fault was it that JW’s RWC side was not tested? I would argue that they were tested by the best teams in the world at that stage. The teams that were strong enough to win their pool games and get to the play off stages.
In 2003, would it be fair to say that Aus were not tested cause they never played SA?
To be fair to your point, I also agree that we need to have a few other strategies. I would say that JW’s strategies were fine at the time. When we needed to beat the AB’s we beat them through the kick chase game plan and our forwards were smashing them up front.
Now that is probably not the best option as they have adjusted to our way of playing them. The strategy needs a change, totally agree.
I do not understand why people keep slamming JW though. He did win the RWC on 20 October 2007. That was what he was hired to do.
28 Jul 2010, 13:44 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-29: Pissant, I didn’t and havent watched the past weekend’s game, I was in the deep of the Eastern Cape, how was Olivier, did De Jongh get minutes?
Remember, now WO, has now started 20 test matches
28 Jul 2010, 13:47 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-58:
Nothing to write home about, De Jongh did get some minutes but the game was about done and dusted by then.
28 Jul 2010, 13:48 pm
I am not going to jump on the PDV bashing bandwagon.
At this point in time for me the only judgement is next years WC. We are a year away and that is the most important thing to focus on.
We had a bad 2006 and all was not lost infact all was won.
PDV will be judged on whether he can turn this around or not.
28 Jul 2010, 13:49 pm
@Simon(Simon)-54:
Cool your jets.
I don’t want my name sullied with that of puny “vampires” who sparkle.
28 Jul 2010, 13:49 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-58:
If we are to be consistent we probably have to argue he has had time to grab his opportunities and has failed to do so.
I am thinking the likes of Brussow and Morne who were given a shot, and made the position their own when they got it.
28 Jul 2010, 13:51 pm
57. BULLET(BULLET) :
100% mate.
The whole arguement that we weren;t true champions because we didn;t meet Aud or the AB’s is bullshite.
Aus and the AB’s were beaten by teams we beat – end of story
We ruled – JW ruled
Jake White for President
hahahah
28 Jul 2010, 13:53 pm
Bok fans there is a new plan of action. Have you checked the facebook campaign called FARAC: Fans Against Rolland And Cheating. FARAC is there to post your message of support for this initiative.
28 Jul 2010, 13:53 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-56:
By that time they had been playing together for a while so the consistency requirements had been largely achieved with the desired results. As the RWC got nearer the need then turned to ensuring they were fresh.
PDV has the same players, but most of them are in a completely different stage of their playing careers now, and hence they have a different requirement to what they did under JW.
My point is PDV has not identified and consistently played new combinations with the RWC in mind to fill in for the older lot while they now require rest/management – far more so than they did under JW in 2006.
You’re right in that the article is about identifying players for the RWC and managing them but to my mind PDV has not done that as successfully as White because in this instance the term “management” required resting and conditioning senior players AND finding and blooding new players/combinations. The latter part of which PDV to my mind has not suceeded with to the level required.
28 Jul 2010, 13:53 pm
58. XhosaKid(XhosaKid) :
Way prefer De Jong – he only got limited game time but was lively in that time.
De Jong to start for the rest of the 3 nations I hope – PLEASE!!!
28 Jul 2010, 13:55 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-57: Jake White did what he was hired to do, sure.
I am slamming him at current for riding the wave of past achievements at the expense of healing the wounded Springbok.
His current statements on PDV is nothing else but a personal ego trip and psychologic chess game intended to further his own cause and hoping supporters would feel nostalgic to the days he was at the helm.
Instead of being supportive to the new national coach during a bear market trend in Bok performances, he is merely engaging in a counterfactual debate asking a lot of “what if” questions, in essence slamming the iron while it is hot and reminding SA Rugby that they should rather have stuck with him.
Him of all people should know the value of support structures around a Springbok team that goes through a rough patch.
28 Jul 2010, 13:56 pm
Xhosakid,
De Jongh came on, looked as hungry as you can for 8 minutes. Pity, I am hoping that he gets game time soon.
28 Jul 2010, 13:58 pm
67. willievz(willievz) :
I do agree with you the timing is uncalled for but PDV really did mouth off when Jake’s contract was being reviewed for renewal saying how he had a better record than Jake etc.
I think PDV mouthed off at Jake quite a bit when Jake was vunerable.
*** for tat I don;t agree is right but these guys obviously don;t get along too well.
But granted not going to say Jake should have jumped on the band wagon now – it is wrong and I’m the biggest Jake White cheerleader around
28 Jul 2010, 14:00 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-59: So, whats the verdict?, 3 more tests to make it 23 starts without anything to write home about?, that will make it 6 consecutive starts!!!!!, not to mention the mess/non event he did against Italy
De Jongh got a sniff against Wales away from home and we all know what happened, you can go to youtube to see it for yourself. When is enough, enough, when are we going to stop explaining why Meisiekind never steps up.
I sincerely hope that in the few minutes JDJ was on the park, he showed something.
28 Jul 2010, 14:03 pm
MIKE H – post 60.
I agree. Nothing to tell PDIV now. He was hired to win the RWC and I will wait and pass judgement then.
WILLIEVZ – 67
Apologies, I agree what White did recently was in poor form. I am not condoning that. My points relating to his management of players and coaching style were the main motivation for my previous posts. I still maintain that he was hired to win the RWC, and anything he did (rightly or wrongly so during his tenure as coach) was vindicated on 20 October 2007. I cannot understand what people have against JW. He did what he was hired to do, brought the most prized possession in World Rugby to one of the most passionate rugby countries in the world under the worst employment conditions of any professional coach in that era, yet there are still thousands in the country who criticise and chastise him daily. It confuses me.
Should DIV win the 2011 RWC, he should feel the same.
28 Jul 2010, 14:06 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-69: I knew that PDV slammed Jake when he went through his rough patch, which was also uncalled for. I was also critical of that behaviour.
But if senior people in SA Rugby just go about returning the favour and slamming each other when results don’t go their way, then SA Rugby is the biggest loser. And as a supporter, I will not accept the trumpet blowing of one coach at the expense of the Bok jersey. Forget it.
Jake should know that playing eye-for-an-eye games with other coaches like the one he is currently engaged in do more harm than good. And once we ask the question why he does this, it unfortunately results in people questioning his integrity and commitment to past achievements.
28 Jul 2010, 14:08 pm
@Yetirat(Yetirat)-65:
Again I think we are assuming PDV has not identified his core squad, or even 80% of the team he wants to take to the World Cup.
I think he has to be honest, but we are just speculating.
More to the point, I think most of the players that won the thing in 2007 is needed to do the same in 2011.
Of course ensuring back up to those players is essential as well as managing those players to the world cup ensuring they are in the best possible condition.
I don’t think we need to worry too much on new combinations apart from a view tweaks in certain areas.
The team that did well in 2009 are for my money, pretty much the team that can do it for us in 2011…
28 Jul 2010, 14:10 pm
@XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-70:
I am afraid we either go back to the tried and tested (Jean/Mossie combo) or give another guy a shot to announce himself as the official number 2 in that position or even make it his own…
Again, similar to Januarie I do not think Olivier was bad at all, I just think we can do better and its only fair to give another guy a crack now.
28 Jul 2010, 14:13 pm
72. willievz(willievz) :
I do agree mate
28 Jul 2010, 14:14 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-73:
You’re right everything we’re saying is speculation.
On your last paragraph, yes as long as they are managed correctly.
In terms of personnel yes they can win it for us, in terms of tactics….well we’ll just have to wait and see.
28 Jul 2010, 14:15 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-71: No doubt about that Bullet, he did what he was asked to do, enriching the life of millions of South Africans.
South Africa is arguably the toughest rugby nation to please. Just look at the behaviour of some of the bloggers on this site, myself included. We are ruthless, unforgiving, driven by emotion and sometimes unrealistic.
And Jake knows the passion of the SA Rugby supporter, perhaps also because he is one himself. At current he is an armchair Bok supporter enjoying the pleasure of watching the game on TV with a beer rather than a notepad.
But after this week I seriously question if he loves the Springbok more than his own achievements. By making people reflect on his glory days instead of making people dream about the future of SA rugby is incredibly selfish.
28 Jul 2010, 14:22 pm
77 – WILLIEVZ,
Maybe he just wants the current coach to feel how he felt in 2006, as it made him a better coach who ultimately won the RWC…Maybe he is trying to help PDIV with his development. (Okay, that’s a joke)
I cannot speculate as to why JW is saying or doing the current things. I agree, its not good. Unless he explains his motives, I will not comment.
28 Jul 2010, 14:30 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-66: @XhosaKid(XhosaKid)-58: you okes, don’t get Alucard started on the no X-factor-having juan de jongh!
28 Jul 2010, 14:32 pm
Quade Cooper’s appeal to his suspension was unsuccessful.
28 Jul 2010, 14:33 pm
@PissAnt(PissAnt)-74: In the beginning of the year, I said Olivier will have a good season for the Bulls but will never step to test rugby, at that time I even used last year’s CC semi vs WP, I said that game was “testlike” in terms of intensity, hence Bosch and JDJ were able to manhandle Meisiekind and the Aplon humiliated him, I said so not because I hate the guy but if one an analysis of how Meisiekind plays, its clear that he is/will only be effective if his forwards set up the platform for him.
28 Jul 2010, 14:38 pm
@Craven(Craven)-80: thank you! Daft Australians told them there was no reason to appeal!
28 Jul 2010, 14:59 pm
Hoskings has a point, in terms of results on the field there aren’t much difference between White and De Villiers. In fact, their results are almost identical.
Jake White:
All Tests – 54 / 36 / 17 / 1 (66.6% win ration)
Points – 1740 / 1097 Ave: 32 – 20
Tries – 194 / 110 Ave: 4 – 2
Against best nations – NZ (9/3/6), Aus (11/6/5), Fr (4/1/2/1), Ire (4/2/2), Eng (7/5/2)
In 3N - Games 18 / 8 / 10 (44% win ratio)
- Points 375 / 468 Ave: 21 – 26
- Tries 36 / 44 Ave: 2 – 2.4
Peter de Villiers:
All Tests – 32 / 21 / 11 (65.6% win ratio)
Points – 839 / 609 Ave: 26 – 19
Tries – 85 / 53 Ave: 3 – 2
Against best nations – NZ (8/4/4), Aus (7/3/4), Fr (2/1/1), Ire (1/0/1), Eng (1/1/0)
In 3N - Games 15 / 7 / 8 (46% win ratio)
- Points 315 / 340 Ave: 21 – 23
- Tries 27 / 32 Ave: 1.8 – 2.1
But, herein lies the greatest indictment on SA Rugby, they have accepted mediocrity as an acceptable standard to judge our coaches by. Hoskings’ point that De Villiers is on par with White and that he is happy with De Villiers even if he “isn’t the best coach in the world” should be of great concern to Springbok fans.
Although De Villiers on field record might be on par with that of White, Hoskings is making a big mistake regarding De Villiers. No one can question the impact and contribution Jake White had on Springbok rugby. He took the team from the shambles created by Harry Viljoen and Rudolf Strauli and brought SA rugby into contention as a leading nation. There is no argument that White left Springbok rugby in a better condition than he found it, even if his on field record is average.
Can the same be said about De Villiers? Has he done anything else or different to develop the Springbok game or take us to the next level? The answer is an emphatic NO! SA rugby and Peter de Villiers received a fantastic opportunity to make SA Rugby the world’s leading nation, to take SA rugby from average to way above average. When Jake White left, the ground was fertile for SA rugby to flourish like never before.
But, instead SA rugby and Peter de Villiers has accepted mediocrity has an acceptable standard. They have done nothing to advance and further the Springbok game. Hoskings is right in saying that the Boks of 2010 are on par with the Boks of 2007, the only problem is that the rest of the world has moved on three years and we have to start catching up again.
Peter de Villiers still has a year and a half left in tenure before one can really compare him with White. Right now they might be on par in terms of results; they are definitely not on par in terms of contribution to the SA game (especially if you take into account De Villiers’ media outbursts and the damage that has caused). It will be interesting to see the comparison at the end of nest year, will De Villiers still be “on par” with White? If he is, SA Rugby would have failed the Boks and their supporters.
28 Jul 2010, 15:03 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-78: You also asked why some people still criticise Jake even though he did what he set out to.
The fundamental divide is between supporters who would like to win the World Cup and those who would like to be the nr1 team in the world.
Those rugby supporters who criticise Jake on his career are the ones who would like to see a greater win % for all tests instead of achieving the single yet momentous prize of the WC. They criticise Jake because they themselves do not agree with losing on the road and having to contend with a larger loss/win ratio against traditional enemies such as NZ.
In a nutshell, Jake White took on an objective that was necessarily going to be controversial, in the hope that a RWC triumph will erase the possible bad memories of years of team building and losses on the road. Luckily for Jake, the majority of Bok supporters would rather be de jure “World Champions” than the de facto best team in the world.
Of course, Jake got off to a dream start, winning the 2004 3N, which gave hope to the nation that intermediate goals do not have to be sacrificed.
This, however, piled up immense pressure on his shoulders and expectations soared, which resulted first in a poor EOYT. On this tour, Jake tried to remind SA Rugby that we have adjusted our expectations too soon after 3N success, and that the team is still essentially a bunch of boys striving to become men (hence the infamous “boys versus men” comment after England).
But a large part of the public never really forgot the 3N success in 2004, and was disappointed in our 2005 effort before the pawpaw finally struck the fan in 2006. Of course, in 2007, the story is completed with a happy ending. For most.
The JW story is particularly interesting because of its cyclical nature in a short time period. Immense highs were followed by catastrophic lows. For coaches in NZ throughout and for Bok coaches historically, this is an unusual pattern. We sacrificed a lot to be the champions of the World.
And some supporters don’t like unusual stories. Some Bok supporters think the price we pay for ultimate glory is too much. Some would much rather prefer that the Boks take every test as serious as the next one.
My question to the SA Rugby public is if WC glory should be the primary objective for SA coaches, or are we too forward-looking in steering the Springbok ship? Should we rather not focus on season-specific goals, taking a more micro and present day stance to our fortunes? Should we rather not truncate the Springbok business cycle to ensure a smoother output graph?
To make a long story short, SA Rugby should do some self-search and ask itself if it does not have a bogus objective for SA Rugby coaches, the attainment of the WC.
28 Jul 2010, 15:10 pm
@fsjakes(fsjakes)-83: The biggest mistake was appointing a coach and admitting that he was not the best in line simply to justify the status quo and excuse the choice by saying that there were other forces at play. That is like saying I shot my own foot but I kind of enjoyed it. Stupid and plain stupid. If PdV was not the best technically speaking then he should have been given the required backup instead he was seconded two dim witts as his assistants. One who lost 13 out of 13 as S14 coach and the the with pretty much the same record whilst he was second/third fiddle at the stormers. What are Allister Coetzee and Frans Ludeke doing right the PdV is not or even better what are the Stormers adn Blue Bulls doign rigth that SA Rugby is incapable of? Forget about choice of players they can all do the job, they did it in the S14 (although next year may be different), why have they suddenly become inept and incapable all of a sudden. What suprises me is that players who barely make the bench in their sides are being selected in our starting 15or in our starting 22. Now if that is not stupdity at its best I rest my case.
28 Jul 2010, 15:16 pm
85. Objective 101(Objective 101) : Ye mate good point.
Quite demoralising wouldn’t you say.
28 Jul 2010, 15:20 pm
@Objective 101(Objective 101)-85: You kinda missed the point of my post…
28 Jul 2010, 15:23 pm
84. willievz(willievz) :
Jake started with pretty much nothing. A team with less than 200 caps in total and we were ranked 6th/7th in the world.
By the time they were at the WC and at their peak they were the most capped team in SA history. We ended the WC as world campions and ranked number 1 in the world.
Quite an acheivement from where we started.
While you are you building a team it’s harder to have a higher % win ratio.
You’d expect PDV to have a higher win ratio given what he started with.
Last year was probably a peak period for SA rugby where we had a very experienced team who were in good physical condition.
If we make the right decisions this year we can be in good condition for next year and still retain our experience.
28 Jul 2010, 15:25 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-86: Ye the only way to sort this out would be for the paying public to vote with their feet adn stop attending matches. If we start losing at home it will happen and maybe by then SA Rugby wil catch a wake-up.
I fail to find any solace in being told that PdV is just as bad as JW. I would rather be told he is a good as Nick Mallett but that will never happen adn I can quite well understand why both him and Heineke Meyer will be givign SA Rugby as wide a berth as possible. What worries me though from a long term perpective is the total lack of any congruent plan when it comes to rugby development. When last did one of our U19 or U21 sides reach the finals let alone win? When our current Boks were that age which indicates to me that in a few years time we are not even going ot be in the top 5 playing nations unless the selectiosn were so badly skewed that the sides that played were not remotely representative of SA’s playing strength.
28 Jul 2010, 15:26 pm
79. Transformation(Transformation) :
hahaha
I’m becoming more and more a De Jong fan everytime I see him play
But really he needs to play full games to be judged.
28 Jul 2010, 15:28 pm
why is Jake so much media attention….i think even though he said he would apply for it next year…the timing of it was strategic
28 Jul 2010, 15:33 pm
89. Objective 101(Objective 101) :
With regards to the U21′s I’ve noted it many times on here and hardly got any comments.
Jake and PDV were the last to win us U21 WC’s – go figure
28 Jul 2010, 15:34 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-90: i agree with you on de jongh…huge talent.
Talking of game time….Stormers signed Jdv for the super 15 next year…so not much game time for de jongh again unless there is injuries. Unless they play him out of positon at wing to get some game time…but unlikely given we have Habs and gio with jantjies back at 15
28 Jul 2010, 15:37 pm
On the poll on the right i see 10 people want Naka to be the next bok coach
and that D i c k has more support than Gold…interesting
28 Jul 2010, 15:38 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-88: I agree wholeheartedly. What he achieved was immense. The fact that some people are blind to this is the worrying aspect and shows how unforgiving we are as a rugby nation. In life, people are quick to remember the misfortunes rather than the special times.
I am not one slamming White’s past achievements. Quite the contrary – he is one of my heroes in terms of past achievements, not only how he picked up and nurtured a wounded Springbok in 2004, but in how he did it in 2006.
Perhaps this is why I am so disappointed with his recent media outbursts.
28 Jul 2010, 15:49 pm
@Mike H(Mike H)-88: “You’d expect PDV to have a higher win ratio given what he started with.”
Actually, because of the fact you just highlighted, PDV has a much tougher job than JW ever had.
Not only does the public expect him to have a higher win % ration, but he has a specific objective – to win the WC. Two objectives that were often at odds in the JW era, as losses were often seen as sacrifices for the ultimate prize. PDV can no longer have this excuse because the wheel does not have to be invented.
Because PDV is working with players who have done it before, you would expect him to have an easier job. However – and this is contrary to the obvious – those players are often complacent and not pitching up in games because they live on their reputation. The players themselves are also mostly focused on collecting test caps, and is motivated to the WC next year. If they try to play full-out and achieve results in every single test they play though, their longeivity in the game will be sacrificed.
28 Jul 2010, 15:53 pm
@willievz(willievz)-96: Do you think Jake White will ever take on a consultancy role with the boks and work with Div…..i think he could help out with our defensive problems
28 Jul 2010, 15:56 pm
Good grief
These epic ramblings !!!!!!!!!!
28 Jul 2010, 15:59 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-93: Rest Habs he is so out of sorts it is not funny. JdJ should be a starter but who knows with Grant gone what they will do. JdV’s star is starting to wane whereas JdJ is starting to rise.
So long as they don’t play pork pie in the starting 15 you should be OK. I hope for yoru sake they get rid of Nqualevuki.
28 Jul 2010, 16:03 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-97: We need a proper technical analyst the one we have at this stage is not up to scratch.
JW is a prima donna it is him or no one else. Eddie moans did all the work yet JW got all the plaudits. And interesting it was BH who gave eddie his jacket not JW!!
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