Learning from past lashings
28 Jul 2010
JON CARDINELLI says that for the Boks to move forward, they have to look back at the successes and failures of 2006.
The Springboks have three weeks to reflect on what was their worst Australasian tour in four years. Only the three heavy defeats of 2006 (the 49-0 thrashing in Brisbane, the 35-17 hiding in Wellington and the 20-18 disappointment in Sydney) rank higher in the Tri-Nations’ Hall of Shame. Peter de Villiers said he doesn’t know where they went so wrong, a frightening admission one year out from a World Cup.
But talk of replacing De Villiers is pointless. The player-driven system is no secret, but the reality is De Villiers and his assistants are contracted until the end of the 2011 World Cup. If Saru fires them now, they’ll be paying them win bonuses even if the Boks defend their title under a new set of coaches.
Springbok rugby needs to make do with what it’s got, and if De Villiers, Gary Gold and Dick Muir are going to spend these three weeks wisely, they’ll be doing some research. Former Bok assistant coach Allister Coetzee has already compared the two campaigns, and suggested all is not lost. The big question is, will De Villiers take heed of history?
Jake White’s Boks finished last in the 2006 Tri-Nations and went on to lose two out of three on their end-of-year tour. The Sanzar tournament was lost on the away leg, but the Boks saved some face with two late wins. White then took a number of youngsters to Ireland and England, leaving several senior statesmen in South Africa to rest ahead of the 2007 Super 14.
The Boks lost 32-16 in Dublin and blew a half-time lead in the first Test at Twickenham to lose 23-21. They broke the Twickenham curse a week later when Andre Pretorius kicked four drop goals in the 25-14 win, a victory that began South Africa’s dominance over England in the build up to the 2007 World Cup.
While that was important, the value of playing youngsters and leaving the senior guys at home to rest was evident. Frans Steyn emerged as an important figure on the tour, and in 2007, the Sharks and Bulls contested the Super 14 final. South Africa rode the momentum into the World Cup.
De Villiers needs to keep this in mind when planning for the remaining games of the Tri-Nations and the subsequent Grand Slam tour. Playing his best available players and preventing the embarrassment of losing at home is imperative. It will also ensure they prevent a 3-0 drubbing at the hands of either the All Blacks or Australia, which would be a massive psychological blow before a World Cup year.
Following the conclusion of this tournament, De Villiers must decide on who to rest and who to take to the United Kingdom and Europe. Fourie du Preez and Andries Bekker have already been ruled out with injury, and the latter blow may suggest Victor Matfield should tour. But judging by the amount of rugby the 33-year-old has endured this year, and the adverse effect it’s had on his performance, it would be best to give him time to recuperate.
Persisting with the youngsters and alternative combinations should be the objective on the Grand Slam tour. The World Cup is the priority, and if defending their title means risking a few defeats on the Grand Slam tour, then so be it.
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368 Comments
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28 Jul 2010, 21:15 pm
who was injured in 06 compared to who is injured now?
Burger, Botha and JdV missed the Aus game where we lost 49-0 otherwise entire team that went to world cup were there and played in that team
Os, CJ, Smit, Matfield, Smith, Van Niekerk, Cronje, Fdp, Januarie, Van der Westhuizen, Olivier, Fourie, Habana, Montgomery, Paulse, etc.
Here are the teams and stats from that game.
15 July 2006 at Suncorp Stadium
Jake White believed in defense and on this occasion it looked a complete flop as the Wallabies ran in six tries to record their biggest win ever over the Springboks, the biggest win ever in the history of the Tri-Nations – and it was the Springboks’ opening match of the 2006 Tri-Nations.
The scorers:
For Australia:
Tries: Paul, Holmes, Giteau 2, Larkham, Chisholm
Cons: Mortlock 5
Pens: Mortlock
Drop: Larkham
The teams:
Australia: CE Latham, MA Gerrad (C Rathbone), SA Mortlock, MA Giteau (MS Rogers), LD Tuqirir, SJ Larkham, GM Gregan (captain) (SJ Cordingley), SG Fava, GB Smith (PR Waugh), RD Elsom, DJ Vickermann (MD Chisholm), NC Sharpe, GD Shepherdson (GS Holmes), JA Paul (SP Hardman), GS Holmes (AKE Baxter).
South Africa: PC Montgomery (HM Bosman), AZ Ndungane (BJ Paulse), J Fourie, W Olivier, BG Habana, JG van der Westhuyzen, ER Januarie (PF du Preez), PJ Spies, JH Smith (J Cronje – temp), JC van Niekerk (J Cronje), V Matfield, DJ Rossouw (PA van den Berg), CJ van der Linde, JW Smit (captain) (D Coetzee), JP du Randt (EP Andrews).
Referee: PG Honiss (New Zealand)
28 Jul 2010, 21:29 pm
Imagine it was PdV that lost 49-0
hoo boy the blood would be splattering across my screen right now for sure.
So coaches that lose 49-0 are celebrated as hero’s and those that lose 30-13 on the same ground 4 years later are regarded as quotas, No wonder this country is farked up crooked, upside down, back to front, inside out, left to right, in the head.
28 Jul 2010, 21:29 pm
i still cringe when i see that loose trio….reminds me so much of the dark era….hell man…that G Smith and Mc cAw used to decimate us at the breakdown.
Sad thing is we had in LW one of the top opensiders on the very pinnacle of hios form….and chose to allow silly rubbish and politics to ignore him.
It still burns my gut.
28 Jul 2010, 21:32 pm
with brussow and steggmann out we must box clever on the home leg.
Play Bissy at 2 when he is ready….he assists big time at the breakdown.
Then play flo at opeside with Dewalt Potgieter at 8…..they both to the ball players…..also will assist in negating Pocock and mc caw.
Then at 7 its either Schalk or Juan Smith imo……
Play spies off the bench….bloody oke a lazy lout at the moment!
28 Jul 2010, 21:40 pm
If White wouldn’t have been such a vindictive little snot nosed manipulator LW would have played open side flank and 49-0 would not have occurred, in fact the entire progression from that one single omission created the biggest undermining putrefied cause of events which culminated in a whole sing song show down where people still to today believe White and Smit to be saints and Watson to be the devil incarnate.
When Burger went down White picked Tyabalika, Floors, Spies at 6, anybody and everybody but he would not lower his pride to pick Watson, in that action he set the division, not the other way around, so Watson inherited the divisive scape goat tag, and Smit and White walked tall in their belief.
Now Smit is kaput and PdV will have to go with Matfield as captain where Watson would have been the natural successor all things being equal on an equal playing field.
The real irony of the issue is Watson has been touted as Bath captain and Eddy Jones has stated that if White gets Bok job in 2012 he could very possibly pick Watson as his captain. How despicably hypocritical is that?
In 06 and 07 White dug his heels in to the extent of calling Watson everything wrong as far as his Bok vision was setup whereas in 012 he’s good enough to make him captain.
Pathetic is hardly the word.
28 Jul 2010, 21:41 pm
@grant10(grant10)-204: ideal loose trio for me would be
6. Brussouw/louw/stegmann
7. Smith
8. Burger
Spies to wear no.19 until he gets some form back
28 Jul 2010, 21:45 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-205: So eddy jones said white would ‘possibly’ pick watson as his captain….if that words don’t come out of whites mouth i would never believe that
28 Jul 2010, 21:49 pm
i tell you Skop…..karma is a mean bi tch my man…..The day i heard of the plod cancer comment was the day i believed truly in my heart that plod would get his come uppance…..there is no way that vindictiveness and maliciousness goes without retribution…..and plod is going down in flames….with a tarnished reputation to boot.
Bloggers and fans are fickle….with each and every passing loss the mood changes…..there is very , very little support left for plod now. And i tell you….the man holding plod together is matfield….if he decides to pull the plug on plod its all over rover, goodnite nurse……plod has lost the changeroom….it is matfield that is ‘the man ‘ now…..and plods indifference to his shape, form and fitness points to a retirement….and not a day too soon.
Jakes opportunistic news paper headline has done him damage imo….people are now seeing to see the manipulative side of jake…..the overture to LW is transparent….he needs acceptance from the very man he kicked in the face.
Funny thing is …it may just come to pass….
28 Jul 2010, 21:51 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-206: ja…
to be honest i am not sold on schalk at 8….
but i would play him there in place of the awol show pony at this juncture….he wont be worse!
28 Jul 2010, 21:54 pm
dont be surprised if luke is back soon….he only has a year to go at Bath….now as skipper.
Kings are due to [lay superrugby….
Watch the return of the prodical son….the fatted calf may just be the bok captaincy.
I will be in heaven!
28 Jul 2010, 21:57 pm
Hello JW bashers:
Well a few points:
1) If JW was so clueless and Eddie Jones won us the RWC, at least White had the foresight to contract him.
2) 20 October 2007
3) SKOPSKIET – in reference to post 183, why did you stop mid 2007? What happened towards the end of 2007?
4) 20 October 2007
5) We won the RWC playing against the sides that were “good enough” to make it to the quarter’s, semi’s and finals. Not our fault Aus & NZ did not make it further to play us.
6) 20 October 2007
7) JW lost 49-0 to thw Wallabies in 2006 – his team also beat them by 50 in 2008, just 6 months after winning some big trophy.
Pre 2007 RWC – Jake White was exactly what SA rugby needed. Discipline, structure and a coach who would bring pride back to the Jersey. He did that well (20 October 2007) and although he lost some games (2006), he kept his eye on his goal and succeeded.
Post 2007 – I think that Jake White was not the right person to take the SA team forward. They needed the challenge of fresh ideas. Divvy has done that really well in 2008 & 2009.
He is not all of a sudden a poor coach, just someone who (like White) fears resting his big names because of supporters who forget that the goal is the RWC. Biggest prize in world rugby. Always has been, always will be. While White rested players in 2006, it nearly cost him his job. However, he kept his role, he pulled in outsiders to help (some say he had no clue – others call it genius to surround yourselves with people who bring different strengths to you), he rested his statesmen and lo and behold – won the cup.
Last point Skopskiet – please tel me if you cheered or sulked on the evening of 20 October 2007? If you cheered, applauded and were happy, give JW a rest.
28 Jul 2010, 21:57 pm
@grant10(grant10)-209: i believe schalk will be very good at 8….seen him play there for the barbarians alongside Mccaw and Collins…he was immense…probably the best game iv seen him play. Besides his passing has improved a lot during this years super14 and i think he could be a good link man….and wont shy away from the rough stuff like spies has done lately
28 Jul 2010, 22:00 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-212: ja….maybe….i am not sure of his hands at the base, but he certainly has improved his link play ….thats for sure.
Ja, hat he will be an improvement on spies is a given….hell that oke has been hugely dissapointing.
28 Jul 2010, 22:00 pm
@grant10(grant10)-210: too much has happened for that to materialize any time soon….as long as the senior players are still around, luke wont get a look in that’s for sure.
28 Jul 2010, 22:02 pm
@BULLET(BULLET)-211: JW needs to give it a rest….not us?
Its JW in the headlines proclaiming the desire to coach boks…..hence the debate….
28 Jul 2010, 22:04 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-214: mate….stranger things have happened….
But ja….probably post 2011….if at all…
28 Jul 2010, 22:06 pm
Spies should not come close to a Bok starting berth, I used to think Kankowski was a show pony now I’m beginning to realize that Spies is the arch show pony pretender of all time.
Between Spies and Kankowski I still can’t determine who is worse, and then with Burger in the other loosie position you got the biggest bunch of loose cannon idiots in the world playing at back row.
Same diabolical back row that cost us 19-0 in Newlands and losses in Perth and Durban in 08.
Don’t need any overrated prima donnas
Vermeulen, Alberts, Smith, Potgieter, Van Niekerk, Deysel, Francoise Louw, Koster, Peter Louw (perhaps our answer for a fetcher at 6 – and better than Frans Louw as open side flank and an answer to the likes of Pocock and McCaw), Kuun, Stegmann, Mpho Mbiyozo and some others coming through the ranks we quite well covered through the back row.
28 Jul 2010, 22:08 pm
Just thought I’ll mention that Im not happy with New Zealand.
There is no honour anymore.
Ferries take 3 hours to go from south to north island and so on.
Thats unacceptable.
Rugby in New Zealand has also take a significant number of steps backwards. Only 25,000 people made it to Eden Park.
Thats unacceptable.
Paddy O’Brien is IRB referees manager.
Thats unacceptable.
Lighting at NZ stadiums not adequate.
Thats unacceptable.
28 Jul 2010, 22:10 pm
@grant10(grant10)-215: i tell you what…even though he said he would apply next year…the timing of it all is very sinister from jake…nothing is a coincidence. Im not a JW basher but this was a low blow and did his reputation more harm than good given that he would know exactly what Pdiv is going through after 2006…the last thing Div needed was an ex coach rubbing it in…just by giving media attention to Jake brings the spotlight on Div and comparisons will be made….and what do you know that’s exactly whats happening
28 Jul 2010, 22:10 pm
215 – If JW coached the Boks from 2012 t0 2015 and won the 2015 RWC, would you cheer or complain?
28 Jul 2010, 22:10 pm
i agree skop….
boks need some hard nosed grafting loose forwards as opposed to afkop prima donna loosies that are all flash and f all substance.
Vermeulen or dewalt at 8
juan smith…F louw at 7
brussow…steggmann at openside.
Bissy , chilli…tiaan at 2….
Hard workers….the lot of them….
Why these bloody big name….no game flops week after bloody week i just cant fathom.
28 Jul 2010, 22:11 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-217: Mpho Mbiyozo…was he that guy who played so well against the B&I Lions??
28 Jul 2010, 22:11 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-218: you one strange dude my man…
28 Jul 2010, 22:12 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-218:
28 Jul 2010, 22:13 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-219: its all planned ….for absolute sure…..PDV must be feeling loads of heat right now.
I dont want to imagine the mood if we lose 2 or 3 of the home games….its going to be trench and staaldak times…
28 Jul 2010, 22:14 pm
@David(David)-164: David you will know that I attach particular importance on the 12 in a defensive system, but on attack I must confess I don’t favour a particular type of player.
I know you are a fan of a distributing 12 with a boot – such as Mauger or Giteau.
However, I actually think a 12 with a potent step and immediate acceleration can only do the SA game a world of good. His presence will more often than not speed up our first phase attack, even though he might die with the ball in contact.
More importantly, by stepping off either foot he will also manage to straighten the line, something Olivier seems to struggle with.
The difference De Jongh made in the close channels against Australia was immediate and ominous, and spearheaded the rest of our attack in the final stanzas.
I have doubts about his defense though, but I will stick with him at 12, at least field him there on attack and especially if the 10 stands a little deeper in the pocket.
28 Jul 2010, 22:15 pm
gents….good nite…been a cool chatting with you all….
king skop…keep well my man…
outta here
28 Jul 2010, 22:15 pm
Burger better No.8 than a 6 or a 7, If have to play Burger then play him at 8, but Van Niekerk and Watson still way ahead better than Spies or Kanko or Burger at 8, and Vermeulen would be my go to man in soft conditions. maybe Schalk on hard grounds with Spies off bench.
Bullet you as bamboozled as all the rest
That WC was won against sides all ranked lower than 6th IRB rank
Whites rating should be measured against teams ranked 4th or higher not gimme WC games where England was the only team that really offered any competition whatsoever. Less you rate Fiji or Tonga as real opposition.
28 Jul 2010, 22:17 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-228: Hi Skop, who would you pick between Van Niekerk or Vermeulen, and with which flankers and hooker?
28 Jul 2010, 22:18 pm
228,
RWC WAS WON BY BEATING THE TEAMS GOOD ENOUGH TO GET TO THE QUARTERS, SEMIS AND FINAL
28 Jul 2010, 22:18 pm
@willievz(willievz)-226: Defensive is one of De Jongs strengths….he never let the stormers down …has a big hart…similarly to Aplon
28 Jul 2010, 22:22 pm
Will there be enough milk for cereal, eggs for scrambled eggs or bacon for breakfasts in 2011?
These are some of the key/strategic questions that I need answers for before I would even begin to consider going there 2011.
Imagine you want to have a lovely cup of coffee only to be told that they’re waiting for the ferry to bring the milk later in the afternoon.
That will be unacceptable.
28 Jul 2010, 22:25 pm
@Mustard(Mustard)-231: It looks promising so far, but he needs to be tested at international level.
Test rugby is a different animal – completely different intensity in contact and greater skill in ball protection and presentation by ball carriers have been the downfall of many a 12 at test level. How he handles and counters the ruck and maul situations of a more intense nature remains to be seen.
But he certainly does not lack heart and guts.
28 Jul 2010, 22:25 pm
Take it easy mates and cheaters!
28 Jul 2010, 22:26 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232: Depends on whether Ricky makes the squad or not…
28 Jul 2010, 22:30 pm
Friend, I agree with Skop on the quota thing, I still back pdv. Also @G10 Spies was taught to play loose and make his mark there, never in the tight. If pdv thought the like of Ver or Alberts were better suited he’d have chosen them by now
28 Jul 2010, 22:43 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-218:
As the broken record is still spins.
If you dont like taking a ferry,then maybe pay a little more and take the plane across the strait.
25000+ only made it to Eden park cos want half the stadium under construction,being a Sheriff and having that bad an eye sight is a danger to society 6 shooter.
I can understand your problem with Paddy O Brian due to the fact he is a ref although retired he still gets the blame,seems to be typical on this site.
Lighting at Eden Park was bought up a few days before the match,but you have no comeback as the ABs had to play in the same light.
Have i missed anything little cry baby?
28 Jul 2010, 22:46 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232:
Sheriff,there wont be enough milk for your bottle. Please stay home.
28 Jul 2010, 22:49 pm
@Sheriff(Sheriff)-232: NZ is the world’s biggest farm. And if you want good coffee, you haven’t tasted the best until you’ve had a NZ “Flat White”. You’ll get one with a silver fern pattern in the foam.
28 Jul 2010, 22:56 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-239:
mmmmmmmm, just a pity they are selling off all the farms to large overseas companies on the sub continent!
28 Jul 2010, 22:57 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-239:
Yeah, don’t choke on it, will you Sheriff?
28 Jul 2010, 22:57 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-239:
Are the numeric numbers 1987 also a pattern in the foam …slowwly dissapearing as you enjoy your coffee…
A4Y’s…
28 Jul 2010, 22:59 pm
Sorry Willievs had to go out and fetch some sons from work not beers from the fridge
Big Joe still the consummate thinking mans No.8 but in the physicality stakes I think Vermeulen shades him though Vermeulen might be a shade slow on quick fields where the games get loose like against Australia in Aus or on the Highveld here.
So would be good to have Vermeulen, Van Niekerk, Potgieter, Deysel, and a grafter fetcher like Brussow if he were fit all in the mix. I reckon we still well enough covered by loose forwards without either of Spies, Kanko, Burger and even if Smith is over the hill there are others to fill the breech.
I would consider developing Alberts as a second row impact player off bench ala Brad Thorn
I reckon a back row of Vermeulen, Potgieter, Pieter Louw or Frans Louw or Brussow or Stegmann would do very well. I’ve never really been awestruck by Burger I reckon his work rate hides his ineffectiveness I reckon there are far more effective players around with less mayhem.
Hookers are also covered by Chili, Liebenberg, Deon Fourie, Burden, Strauss, Bismark.
We need mobile hookers for the modern game, not dead beat out on their feet plodders with legendary halo’s round their heads
28 Jul 2010, 23:05 pm
MacCains owns all the NZ veggie farms
Maybe Woollies all the dairy and meat farms
Though must say NZ’ders seem like an honest hardworking bunch with good solid intentions driving their integrity
Thats why they make for good sports in most disciplines and don’t generally crow about themselves half as much as saffers tend to do.
28 Jul 2010, 23:06 pm
Best balanced loose trio we have when all available:
8 Joe Van Niekerk
7 Jean Deysel
6 Heinrich Brussow
Followed by
8 Spies
7 Smith
6 Stegmann
28 Jul 2010, 23:06 pm
By JJ “take it wif a pinch of salt” Harmse – The signs are there … but Springbok supporters should hope the team’s coach, Peter de Villiers, does not follow in the footsteps of his predecessor this year.
The statistics of De Villiers and Jake White currently look very similar, but with three games left in this year’s Tri-Nations, De Villiers can still improve on White’s performances.
Both coaches achieved a winning percentage of 69,23% (13 played and nine won) in their first year and were successful in their second year as coaches with a winning percentage of 66,67% (12 played and eight won).
Whereas De Villiers has had a success ratio of 57% in his third year, White achieved only 41%. The Springboks won only five out of 12 Tests in 2006.
With three Tests against the All Blacks and Australia coming up and a Grand Slam tour later this year, the chances are slim that De Villiers will fare as badly as White.
An analysis of the two coaches’ careers at the highest level also shows interesting statistics on the claims that De Villiers is achieving success with “White’s team”.
White only had four of the 38 Springboks that became internationals under him in his starting line-up for the World Cup final in 2007. They were JP Pietersen, Frans Steyn, Bryan Habana and Fourie du Preez.
Eleven of the players were therefore not White’s “products”.
For his part, De Villiers had three of the 24 new Springboks under him in his starting line-up for Saturday’s Test in Brisbane. They were Zane Kirchner, Gio Aplon and Morné Steyn.
Seven of the Brisbane team became Boks under White. They are Habana, Wynand Olivier, Ruan Pienaar, Pierre Spies, Ryan Kankowski, BJ Botha and Gurthrö Steenkamp.
Statistics show that both coaches did well on transformation.
Sixteen of White’s 38 new Springboks were players of colour (42%) , while 11 of De Villiers’s 24 (46%) fall into that category.
Both coaches have won the Tri-Nations once, but are otherwise not performing well in the competition.
White’s team won seven out of 17 Tri-Nations games, while De Villiers boasts seven wins from 15.
With the World Cup being played in New Zealand next year, one also has to examine the coaches’ records there.
The Springboks never won there in four years under White and the average score against them was 18-31.
However, the 2007 team was without 20 senior Boks.
De Viliers’s team has played in New Zealand five times and won twice, with an average score of 20-28.
White’s four defeats in New Zealand included three scores of 30 or more points against the Boks. In 2005 the Boks lost 27-31, in 2006 the score was 17-35 and in 2007 it was 6-33.
De Villiers’s defeats in 2007 were almost similar: 12-32 and 17-31, with the score 8-19 in the 2008 Wellington defeat.
Players that became Boks under White:
Henno Mentz, Fourie du Preez, Jacques Cronjé, Eddie Andrews, Gerrie Britz, Hanyani Shimange, Tim Dlulane, Solly Tyibilika, Gurthrö Steenkamp, Michael Claassens, Bryan Habana, Jongi Nokwe*, Tonderai Chavhanga, Ricky Januarie, Gary Botha, Meyer Bosman, Wynand Olivier, Johan Muller, Akona Ndungane, JP Pietersen, Chiliboy Ralepelle, Pierre Spies, BJ Botha, Ruan Pienaar, Bevin Fortuin, Jaco Pretorius, Frans Steyn, Kabamba Floors, Waylon Murray, Luke Watson, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Peter Grant, Heinke van der Merwe, Ryan Kankowski, Wian du Preez*, Barend Pieterse*, Tiaan Liebenberg*.
(* did not play in tests).
Players that became Boks under De Villiers:
Andries Bekker, Brian Mujati, Tendai Mtawarira, Odwa Ndungane, Schalk Brits, Adriaan Strauss, Heinrich Brüssow, Earl Rose*, Morné Steyn, Zane Kirchner, Heini Adams*, Juan de Jongh, Francois Hougaard, Riaan Viljoen*, Alistair Hargreaves, Ashley Johnson*, Bandise Maku, Dewald Potgieter, Davon Raubenheimer*, Jean Deysel, Gio Aplon, Bjorn Basson, Francois Louw, Flip van der Merwe.
(* did not play in tests).
28 Jul 2010, 23:08 pm
The most amazing stat out of the whole lot is:
“Sixteen of White’s 38 new Springboks were players of colour (42%) , while 11 of De Villiers’s 24 (46%) fall into that category.”
No wonder the Khompela’s and Stofile’s of this world have been quiet, and rightly so.
Since 2004 44% of all new Bok players have been non white.
There’s your transformation.
28 Jul 2010, 23:13 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-244:
Mate, stick to….?? well stick to something……but leave the NZ farms bits out…..
28 Jul 2010, 23:14 pm
@wooden spoon(wooden spoon)-247:
and how many were one hit wonders, if you can call them that?
28 Jul 2010, 23:25 pm
@skopskiet(yliad)-202: Only if they win the World Cup afterwards….
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