Sauls’ time is up
12 Aug 2010
GRANT BALL says that the move to look for a new SA U20 coach is the correct one.
At Saru’s executive council meeting on Wednesday one of the decisions taken was that the posts of the Baby Bok coach and his assistants would be advertised. The new coaching team will be in charge for the Junior World Championships in 2011, 2012 and 2013.
If Sauls had to re-apply and get the job again, that would mean he would have had six years at the helm. Three years has been too long without any success – just a poor return of three third-places – and it’s time for new blood in the coaching staff.
However, signs are there that Sauls will stay on, as he headed the management team of this year’s SA U18 high performance group in order to provide ‘continuity’ to the SA U20 team. The SA U18 side were lucky to beat England 23-17 last month, out-scored by three tries to one and the Boks had to rely on individual brilliance and goal-kicking rather than a constructive team performance to seal the result.
This after he was also coach of SA U18 last year, who were embarrassed 45-13 by England.
Speaking to numerous Craven Week coaches recently, they believe that the players selected for SA U20 were – with the exception of one or two omissions – the best South Africa can produce. Players who Sauls has worked with over the past three years range from Coenie Oosthuizen, Robert Ebersohn, Lionel Mapoe, Lionel Cronje, Gerhard van den Heever, Dewaldt Duvenage, Francois Hougaard, Wilton Pietersen, Pat Lambie, Wandile Mjekevu, Frik Kirsten, to Nick Koster. All of them have had success in the senior ranks, but Sauls couldn’t produce with players that would be the envy of any other nation.
Sauls’ excuses for SA U20′s repeated failures revolve around their lack of a regular competition, like a Six Nations U20 championship. But why can Australia and New Zealand, most notably the latter, perform without one? The Baby Boks toured France in February, played Eastern Province in one of their warm-ups, and Sauls had many opportunities to mould his side.
After playing in Wales in 2008 and Japan (2009), Sauls’ excuses continued as he said those conditions didn’t favour South Africans. He said Argentina 2010 was the year. But all we had was two losses against Australia and New Zealand, while Sauls’ record against those two countries and England is two wins from six in three years.
After failing to get past the semi-finals for three consecutive years (once losing heavily to England 40-21), Sauls said he was pleased his side could get a bronze in Argentina and that they could beat England for the first time in the U20 format.
That shows Sauls’ level of expectation when the Baby Boks are judging themselves against England. New Zealand have set the benchmark, more importantly by their coaching standards.
Yes the Kiwis have talented players, but they had a largely new-look squad this year with minimal players returning from last year’s (again) victorious unit. New Zealand coach Dave Rennie could not only identify talent but could blend it into a unit.
Consistent problems have come up front (troubles the coaching staff have failed to rectify over three years), while the Baby Boks have been physically out-gunned. Sauls and his supporters lament the opposition being bigger than the Baby Boks, but no one forced Sauls to pick the 1.66m 72kg Branco du Preez at inside centre against the All Blacks in this year’s semi-final, where they lost 36-7.
There was little emphasis on defence – the Baby Boks weren’t even getting dominated at the collisions, they just weren’t tackling.
When asked by this website two years ago what his response is to calls for his axing after a poor showing at the Championships, Sauls said he wasn’t concerned as he had a full-time job with the Blue Bulls. That shows what Saru should do when appointing the next head coach of the Baby Boks.
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125 Comments
12 Aug 2010, 13:12 pm
I agree… Time for a new coach!
Who now brown cow?
12 Aug 2010, 13:14 pm
Sauls Dragon
12 Aug 2010, 13:15 pm
Heyneke Meyer?
Jake White?
Would they be interested in the Junior ranks?
Rassie Erasmus?
What about the guy who is coaching the Grey College 1st team?
Big jump from schools rugby to junior nationals but I wouldn’t be surprized if he manages to win a trophy or 2…
12 Aug 2010, 13:17 pm
under-achieving dragon
12 Aug 2010, 13:27 pm
Get rid of Him!
The U20′s defence in the Jnr WC was abysmal and their handling and ball skils were shocking.
They had the talent to win the tournament or at least make the final but they got knocked out in the semi’s (hammered 36-7) by the NZ kids. Semi’s is not much of a feat either given we lost to the Aussies in the group stage (shipped about 40 odd points) then beat Scotland and Tonga by plenty, and that’s not saying a lot.
Evidence of a poorly coached side. What a useless bugger Sauls was.
12 Aug 2010, 13:28 pm
Brown Cow?
What’s his coaching pedigree?
How about that guy who coaches maties?
Chean Roux.
Good head on his shoulders, used to working with youngsters.
Jake can be his video analyst.
12 Aug 2010, 13:49 pm
Ask Loffie Eloff about the problems inherent to this job. I know there has always been problems with funding from Saru. In one year the U/19′s budbet had been cut to send a womwns team to a tournament, etc. There is a lot of bullshit going on, and lest we forget there are the ever present quotas passed on from The SA Schools circus. The answer is not to fire the coach, but to fire the administrators that appoint a man and then don’t support him. Better still, don’t windowdress our national teams along racial lines.
12 Aug 2010, 14:01 pm
The future of SA rugby is bleak
but we have far bigger problems than rugby
12 Aug 2010, 14:04 pm
Will it be a Damascus moment for Saul(s)?
12 Aug 2010, 14:28 pm
Jakey is always going on about how desperately he still wants to be involved with the South Afircan rugby in a coaching capacity. The door’s been shut by Hoskins on the national coaching job, so here’s his chance…
Let’s see if his ego will get the better of him.
12 Aug 2010, 14:51 pm
@gunther(gunther)-6: Quite like the idea of Chean Roux coaching the Junior Boks!
12 Aug 2010, 14:53 pm
who was the young coach of WP craven week last year…?
chris october or something like that… don’t know if he also coached them this year though…
remember his name… (if i’ve got it right) he’s gonna be coaching at a higher level before too long…
young now… but a very good coach and a very intelligent and impressive man…
12 Aug 2010, 14:59 pm
It was interresting to listen to the views of the panel on the Reunion talkshow after the Baby Blacks beat the Bokkies in the U/20 tournament this year. They were all of the view that the Bokkie players were bigger, stronger, faster and just as skillfull as their NZ counterparts, but that the Baby Blacks were just far better coached.
12 Aug 2010, 15:00 pm
@Gambit25(Gambit25)-11:
yeah… interesting choice and good coach…
but quite sure i heard him say in an interview before the Varsity Cup final that he won’t leave Maties… loves it too much and what they’re doing… very involved with rugby all over the cape… believes he’s playing a bigger role for sa rugby at this level…
12 Aug 2010, 15:10 pm
A nice but hapeless quota appointee is in chrage of a quota dominated U20 SA Squad, quite a yawn, really
12 Aug 2010, 15:18 pm
yawn
12 Aug 2010, 15:26 pm
Bring on the next entitlement position!
Why no Jacob Zuma’s son, after being gifted over R2.4 billion in BEE mining entitlements meant for the actual miners just this week, I heard he’s looking for something a bit more cushie.
12 Aug 2010, 15:27 pm
@Hondo(Hondo)-15: i’ve got a new game for you to play doos, it’s called ‘spot the quota’ – you tell us who the quotas are in this team and then continue to elaborate on their individual debilitating effect on the team!
The tournament runs from 6-22 June. South
Africa will face Samoa, Scotland and USA in
Pool B.
SA Under-20 squad:
Cecil Africa (Griffons), Henry Bantjes (Blue
Bulls), Francois Brummer (Blue Bulls), Juan
de Jong (Western Province), Stefan
Dippenaar (Blue Bulls), Robert Ebersohn
(Free State), Dewaldt Duvenage (Boland),
Corne Fourie (Blue Bulls), Cornel Hess (Blue
Bulls), Wiehahn Herbst (Natal), Francois
Hougaard (Blue Bulls), Frederick Kirsten (Blue
Bulls), Nick Koster (Western Province),
Luvuyiso Lusaseni (Natal), Lionel Mapoe
(Free State), Martin Muller (Western
Province), Thiliphatu Marole (Natal), Sabelo
Nhlapo (Natal), Wilton Pietersen (Free State),
Jean Rossouw (Western Province), Omphile
Seabela (Blue Bulls), Pieter-Willem van
Vuuren (Free State), Johan van Deventer
(Golden Lions), Gerrit-Jan van Velze (Blue
Bulls), Stefan Watermeyer (Blue Bulls),
Vainon Willis (Blue Bulls).
Management:
Willem Oliphant (Manager), Eric Sauls (Coach),
Donald Ngwenya (Assistant Coach), Jerome
Paarwater (Assistant Coach), Andre Eloff
(Technical Assistant), Dr Pierre Viviers
(Doctor), Bafana Sihlali (Physiotherapist),
Wayne Hector (Physiotherapist), Graham
Bentz (Conditioning Coach).
This entry was posted on Tuesday, May 6th,
2008
12 Aug 2010, 15:36 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-18: Thats a good team… Sauls should’ve done much more with that!
12 Aug 2010, 15:37 pm
Jerome Paarwater!!! my tjommie …. to be serious, none of the coaching staff has a clue …
12 Aug 2010, 15:45 pm
@Gambit25(Gambit25)-19: can you spot the quotas?
12 Aug 2010, 15:58 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-18:
The unfortunate thing about the u20 and younger sides is that we dont really know the quality of who has been excluded from the squad.
Younger players arent as well known to the general public because we dont get to see too much of them on a regular basis. For all we know, there could be an awesome loose forward from Natal whose place was taken by a quota player at the lower provincial level just to make up the numbers.
That is after all the definition of a quota, someone who is put in a side to make up the predetermined numbers at the expense of someone else. And that goes for everyone, eg ethnic blacks put in the place of a coloured guy or vice versa, just so the make up of the team is deemed ‘non racial’
12 Aug 2010, 16:02 pm
well in the last 10 years when a u/18 team is selected after the Craven Week, the “B” has beaten the “A” team 8 times.
12 Aug 2010, 16:04 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-22: i know what quotas are, the likes of habana, de jongh, aplon, beast – they make up the ‘required’ number if black players in the Bok team.
12 Aug 2010, 16:08 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-24:
No they dont, theres the mistake you make all the time.
I would want to see all those players in the Bok 15 come Aug 21. I really would.
Aplon – 15
Habana – 11
JdJ – 13
Beast – 1 or def on the bench.
And you can throw in JPP as well at 14.
12 Aug 2010, 16:14 pm
Sauls likely to be next senior Bok coach when Div retires. Let’s face it – you don’t need a particularly impressive CV to become a Bok coach these days.
12 Aug 2010, 16:14 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-24:
Those 5 guys I mentioned above have to play a role come Aug 21st and beyond in the Boks. They are entirely there on merit.
The same, I’m afraid, cant be said for Chilliboy and Januarie.
12 Aug 2010, 16:21 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-27: the point is, when hoskins answers questions to the parliamentary committee for sport chaired by the honourable butana khompela
he counts all of these guys in the numbers that meet the ‘required’ quota of players of colour! There’s no running away from it, habana is a quota in the same way sizwe nxasana is an employment equity/transformation CEO of First Rand. They both are competent at what they do but inevitably are part of redressing the past! Agree?
12 Aug 2010, 16:34 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-28:
Therein lies the problem with Transformation/AA whatever you want to call it. Differing opinions aside, we agree that Habana is the best in his position, I dont know who was competing for Sizwes job at First Rand so I dont know if there was someone better qualified but lets assume he was the most qualified. Habana and him will aways be deemed quotas incorrectly.
But you cant force a square peg into a round hole like is sometimes done with transformation. No amount of panelbeating will fix the problem if you place underqualified personnel in top positions.
Redressing the past will not happen in a day and trying to do so could actually do more harm than good. There are loads of examples I can give you here both in rugby and proffessionally.
12 Aug 2010, 18:44 pm
Give them to Jake White.
12 Aug 2010, 18:48 pm
@John Galt(John Galt)-29:
The only quota player on the scene currently is Chilliboy, and if he was given a proper run, he would have made the grade by now. It’s just a pity that he’s always on the bench. He should consider moving elsewhere, maybe the Sharks.
12 Aug 2010, 19:00 pm
@Suidkapenaar(Suidkapenaar)-30:
Why I nominate JW is because i believe the juniors need a mentoring coach for the step up. Jake’s been there and got the medal.
The national junior team is about developing players, not coaches. For developing coaches, they should join Currie Cup and S14 teams as assitant coaches and progress from there.
An intersting thing, I notice that Rassie is spending a lot of time with the WP junior teams. That’s a perfect example of mentoring youngsters. Leaving the coaching of the seniors to Alister Coetzee. He’s developing in one hell of a coach. Being part of the 2007 World Cup coaching staff, burning his fingers last year with the Currie Cup with an unfortunate replacement, the success with this year’s S14, getting hammered in the final, and one or two more seasons with the WP and Stormers teams and we will have a mature, perfect coach for the Boks. Personally I hope he stays with WP for a decade.
12 Aug 2010, 20:17 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-18: Where are these quotas today? Players like Ebersohn, Koster, Duvenhage, Watermeyer & Hougaard all made the step up to Currie Cup/S14 level, but they sound utterly unquota like to me.
12 Aug 2010, 21:29 pm
jerome paarwater is useless. that’s why WP U21 dumped him
12 Aug 2010, 22:02 pm
@Transformation(Transformation)-28: Uyazi ntoni? Quota is the new K word. Anyone black is a quota. Many will argue this even though they know deep down its true.
On the same breath there are selections that are not on merit, black and white. e.g. Smit and Chilliboy.
12 Aug 2010, 22:16 pm
@kwas(kwas)-26: You do, however, need a dark skin.
12 Aug 2010, 23:25 pm
Farking quota placements at coach and in the players, and bum buddy appointments. Welcome to SA in general. No performance here. And we wonder why we are on a downhill slope.
Even if the coach WAS the best we could find, he swould still be hamstrung becaus the foundation teams from the age group players are chosen (i.e. craven week teams) are not the best they can be.
If players and coaches are not chosen on performance/merit alone, I regard them as being AT LEAST second best.
So we choose the second best FOR the craven week teams, and then the second best players FROM the Craven Week teams for our age group teams. And then we coach them with the second best coach. And we wonder why we fail?
I wash my hands of these ANC idiots.
12 Aug 2010, 23:31 pm
@Mczana(Mczana)-35: Every non-white can be counted towards the meeting of the race quota, and so EVERY non-white player is a quota, regardless of their merit.
There is no race-quota for white players, so no white player can ever be “a quota”, no matter how poorly they play.
This is not a matter of opinion. It’s fact.
12 Aug 2010, 23:33 pm
@TheTackler(TheTackler)-38: Go and take a coconut and hit yourself over the head for that “stunning” piece of diversity “wisdom”…
13 Aug 2010, 00:06 am
@WP_(WP_)-34:
Maybe the Bulls will get a hold of him and make him a Springbok?
…I dunno…
13 Aug 2010, 00:56 am
the BS in this site is reaching an all time level.
Talk about non performance & entitlement,the quintessential example is Ruan Pienaar.
WTF are people in about with u20 side this yr being bigger,stronger,faster that AB’s etc Did the see Julian Savea on the wing? did they see Glydenhaal at 10? Did they watch 109 kg no.8 or Luke Whitelock-106kg openside? That team beat all comers by 35+ points,no problem.in 2000/1 the SA u21 team lost to AB u21 by 50 points who had Collins,So’oialo,Mauger etc,that SA team had 1 black player in XV of I’m not mistaken.so what fck “hamstrung” them that yr to get belted by 50?
Fckin hypocrites
13 Aug 2010, 01:12 am
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-41:
it happens
13 Aug 2010, 01:13 am
SjamBok-37
Ur latent hate for “ANC” or anything of the like clouds are already questionable judgement even when some of ur reasoning isnt applicable.Eugene Eloff won the u19 IRB crown with most amount of black players in XV,7/8 starters in 2004/5.In 2006 with ONE black starter they slumped to worst record in IRB WC losing in quarter final under Eloff.Eloff also complained about some of same reasons offered by Sauls that same yr.
So Frans Ludeke with 2 S14 titles-who wasn’t best candidate chosen(he was chosen due to his relationship with Meyer who was DOC at the time-talk about jaundiced selection process)-is still 2nd rate? he is more successful that the highly rated Meyer,even Nick Mallet doesn’t have record he does qt provincial level.Even fckin Mallett wasn’t best candidate in 97′-he he only coached Boland to an act season & had sum success overseas.Buy he was a former BOK & they likes his rhetoric.tied WR in victories
Yes Sauls time has run its cause but the BS reasoning doesn’t cut it
13 Aug 2010, 01:16 am
ATT-42
What happens? And can’t it happen for the converse situation as well?
13 Aug 2010, 01:20 am
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-44:
yes
13 Aug 2010, 05:09 am
@Transformation(Transformation)-21: you idiot you just dont get it do you? You canot “spot the quota” and identify the white players that are better, because those white players have been left behind a long time ago from the first craven week exclusions.
You choose the best from the second best and then try and ask us to show you who is better from the second best group. The best were excluded from the start fuckwit!
SA rugby has been shooting itself in the foot for 14 years now, and we are starting to reap what we have sown. Our age grade players are no longer competitive for top position in the world, and soon, neither will our senior players.
13 Aug 2010, 05:53 am
@mshiniwami(mshiniwami)-43: It is not a latent hate for the ANC, it is a latent hate for bum buddyingi of all kinds – the kind that the Afrikaners do wwith their mates, and the kind the blacks do with their “previously disadvantaged” mates (yeah right! the only people that hav actually benefitted from this are he previously advantaged blacks anyway – the transformation thing is a joke!)
In the past, the dutchmen have screwed it up giving their mates jobs, and now the blacks to the same thing.
At what freaking stage do we actually start acting like professionals, and choose people because they can DO THE JOB THE BEST? Because teh quicker we start doing this, the quicker our rugby can reach its full portential.
In New Zealand, so many people have told me “Thank sGod you guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot, because otherwise we would be in trouble”. I agree with them. Things like FIRING a RWC winning coach (who the F@%$ DOES THAT??).
I quote Murray Mexted at a recent rugby lunch in Auckland:
“I know that the Poms have about 6 development players to our one. I’m comfortable with that – you know it seems about right, six of theirs to one of ours, as we are six times better. But I have seen the quantity and quality of talent coming though the rugby academy (he is a part owner I think) in SA, and its frightening. The size. The speed. But thankfully, the Saffas will never get their house in order enough to exploit this talent…”
I agree with him. While there are quotas, there will be infighting. While there is infighting about the EXISTENCE of quotas, never mind their effect, since this cannot be ascertained, we will never focus on the best performance, and hence will never achieve best performance. Rugby is a sport. Sport should never be about anything else except how good you are. End of story.
Now its time to drop these farking annoying sub-issues, and allow people to focus ONLY on who is the BEST, not the blackest.
Ditto with politics – if they can deliver, they should be your man, regardless of skin colour. But it never is about performance in SA, its always about politics. Hell, we could be a dynamo of country, but we never will be.
13 Aug 2010, 06:01 am
Another thing I have issue with is that the damn rugby clubs that make up the provincial unions and therefore presidents council, are still a bunch of freaking amateurs, with bugger all professional management experience. And no idea of what its like to run a professional game. Which is why its taken so long to get a coach coaching academy up (and only because Jake DID IT HIMSELF). And why petty politics triumphs over performance. A cEO who’s yearly bonus depends on his performance wont get petty in the boardroom – he will demand performance, or heads will roll. The PC are falling over each other playing “best friends” and politiking each other more than they actually focus on MAKING THINGS BETTER.
The Aussies have a man who did great things for atwo other professional sports (League and soccer) at tehir helm. He is a professional. His job is making Aussie rugby great. We already have great rugby. But not for long while other countries get professional, and we stay entrenched in the mire of amateurism.
There was a move to professionalism under Oberholzer, but that was quickly dismantled under Hoskins for the threat it represented to the PC ‘s power.
FFS man!! We need to wake up, and bloody soon, because this BS is already starting to take effect.
13 Aug 2010, 06:08 am
@SjamBok(SjamBok)-48:
Bwhahahahaha did you moer out the wrong side of the bed this morning?
But yes, I have been bemoaning the amateurs running rugby for a long time now and nothing have changed. Any suggestions on how we get rid of the PC brigade, very hard to people to vote themself out a cushy job…
13 Aug 2010, 09:23 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-40: He’s not a player, he’s a coach you wally
13 Aug 2010, 09:37 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-40: He’s not a player, he’s a coach you wally
13 Aug 2010, 10:05 am
@WP_(WP_)-51:
So?
13 Aug 2010, 10:08 am
@WP_(WP_)-51:
Anyway JC, when you have time, just load those stats or post a helpful link please. Thanks.
13 Aug 2010, 11:21 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-52: He’s terrible. that will never happen. hopefully.
You calling me JC now? haha
13 Aug 2010, 11:31 am
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-53: I dont know where you got your stats from but this is what you said:
“JC told us that Flou made 10 “pilfers” apparently to Stegmann’s 5. Apparently arriving at the BD.
Now, apparently Stegmann got 2x the T/O of Flou in the tackles (6 vs Flou’s 3.)
Thus Flou made 13 T/O and Stegmann made 11 T/O.
Right? Am I?
Fou played about 1140 minutes, and Stegmann around 780 minutes.”
According to the Fox Sports Website (which is australian so not biased) these are the stats from the Super 14:
F Louw:
Minutes played: 1131
Tackles made: 165
Tackles missed: 16
Pilfers: 16
Turnovers forced: 5
Stegmann:
Minutes played: 811
Tackles made: 109
Tackles missed: 12
Pilfers: 6
Turnovers forced: 3
You do the maths as to which was more productive/effective mate!
13 Aug 2010, 11:35 am
@WP_(WP_)-55: And on attack?
Louw:
Runs: 86
Tackles bust: 18
Offloads: 10
Linebreaks: 5
Stegmann:
Runs: 34
Tackles bust: 4
Offloads: 0
Linebreaks: 1
13 Aug 2010, 11:50 am
To me the bigger problem is the selections that are made and the conditioning and fitness levels of the players.
It always appears to me as if there men are playing against boys with the boys being us.
Our youth are not being developed as well as the other countries any more and maybe that’s where they should be concentrating efforts. And of cause selecting the very best players in every position regardless of race would also be a great help.
13 Aug 2010, 12:31 pm
@WP_(WP_)-55:
@WP_(WP_)-56:
Provide the link please. (a helpful one)
First of all, both us know that’s not correct.
It isn’t what you initially posted a couple of months ago,
and lastly, 1 linebreak (for example)?!?! You’ve got to be kidding. You telling me you didn’t even watch the games.
This tells me it’s one of those where they can’t even pin the positions and minutes, or you “edited” it yourself.
Besides, this doesn’t even agree at all with ruggastats.com or the Bulls’ stats. (So post the damn link)
109 tackles?!?
Comeon JC.
13 Aug 2010, 12:37 pm
@WP_(WP_)-56:
Let’s send an e-mail to ruggastats.com telling them there stats are bullshit and we should all rather use the Aussies’ stats…
(and the Bulls union too)
13 Aug 2010, 12:38 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-58: They are not my stats, there are provided on the Fox Sports website.
They’re on the Fantasy rugby section: s14fantasy (dot)foxsports (dot) com (dot) au/M/home (dot) mc
you have to join the game to see them. Go ahead, you’ll see the stats I put up…
What’s wrong with 109 tackles?
13 Aug 2010, 12:39 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-60: Well what are the figures for the season from ruggastats big mouth
13 Aug 2010, 12:42 pm
@WP_(WP_)-55:
According to the “amateurs” at ruggastats for example, in defence:
Stegmann: 123 tackles; 42 assists; missed 10
Louw: 163 tackles; 29 assists; and missed 17
just the forced T/O:
Stegmann: 6
Louw: 3
13 Aug 2010, 12:43 pm
@WP_(WP_)-60:
Ja, I agree: “Fantasy Rugby”…
13 Aug 2010, 12:44 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-63: What defines a turnover?
Clearly Rugga stats and Fox are diffenrent.
Remebering, these Fox stats are the ones they put on the tv during the games, not some amateur site
13 Aug 2010, 12:45 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-64: The stats are collected from the official Fox statisticians…
13 Aug 2010, 12:47 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-64: gotta run.
13 Aug 2010, 12:48 pm
@WP_(WP_)-60:
Tackle efficiency;
Steg: 93%
Flou: 91%
linebreaks, carries, offloads, meters gained, meters per carry
Steg: 3breaks (8%), 36 carries, 1 OL, 143m, 4meters per carry.
Louw: 9breaks (9%), 94 carries, 12 OL, 558m, 6meters per carry.
13 Aug 2010, 12:48 pm
@WP_(WP_)-64:
JA, like the weights “put on the TV during games”…
13 Aug 2010, 12:50 pm
@WP_(WP_)-65:
Leave that Fantasy Rugby bullshit and give us “Statscentre’s” Verusco stats JC.
Doesn’t paint that great a picture of Francois Louw at all.
Stegmann the better stealer and the so-called “pilfer” stats are wrong too.
13 Aug 2010, 12:50 pm
@WP_(WP_)-66:
Ag, really?
13 Aug 2010, 12:51 pm
@WP_(WP_)-65:
Incorrect.
13 Aug 2010, 12:53 pm
@WP_(WP_)-66:
Bloody inconvenient…
13 Aug 2010, 12:56 pm
If anyone is in need of some comic relief, go to the sharks website->then to the player profiles and scroll down to Lionel Mapoe’s profile…LOL
13 Aug 2010, 14:04 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-68: Thats BS, you cant just say that my stats are wrong. You stats are wrong.
Mine are from a much more credible source. Anyway, if we cant even agree on the stats, there’s no point in continuing this discussion. Difference of opinion, but my opinion is backed up by the national selectors on a player that isnt a quota, so its not like im saying Ricky Januarie is better than about another 7 halfbacks in the country. Cheers
13 Aug 2010, 14:15 pm
@WP_(WP_)-74:
Kuiken seun, I already told you about the national selectors whether it be a POC or not. Just convenient that it fits you.
Why don’t you put a poll up that asks:
“which stats do you think is more credible:
*Verusco
*Aussie Fanstasy Rugby”
Ja….
13 Aug 2010, 18:00 pm
It’s Fox Sports chop. the official rugby broadcaster in Australia.
And you bring your kiwi veruca whatever.
Still enjoy losing tomorrow and your trophy this year
13 Aug 2010, 18:08 pm
@WP_(WP_)-76:
Yeah, I know what you meant boetie.
(You gave me the link two months ago, remember?)
13 Aug 2010, 18:11 pm
@WP_(WP_)-76:
But there still can’t be such vast discrepancies in the rugby stats no matter where they’re from.
…Unless you edited them yourself.
13 Aug 2010, 18:18 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-67: If those are averages per game of total over a season (S14?)then those stats imply Flo is a more productive player…
13 Aug 2010, 18:18 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-79: or total
13 Aug 2010, 18:21 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-79:
It’s a season total…do you want he breakdown stats to see who was “productive”?
13 Aug 2010, 18:23 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-81: Give it – lets see the “productivity” stats
13 Aug 2010, 18:23 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-79:
Bear in mind Flou was playing at 7. He obviously has the contact stats.
13 Aug 2010, 18:24 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-82:
Comin’ up….
13 Aug 2010, 18:27 pm
BD (Attack)
aoo ; cleans/match ; /minute ; % of teams total ; ave%/min/match of teams:
Stegmann: 297 21.21 0.384 10.9% 16%
Flou: 206 13.7 0.184 7.7% 8.2%
….on to the others…..
13 Aug 2010, 18:27 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-83: Is this S14 from Verusco?
13 Aug 2010, 18:28 pm
aoo=ooa though (those that count amongst the cleaners to the ruck)
13 Aug 2010, 18:29 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-86:
Apparently.
it looks a little cluttered, let me try:
Stegmann: 297…….21.21…… 0.384…… 10.9%……. 16%
Flou: 206……… 13.7……… 0.184……. 7.7%…….. 8.2%
13 Aug 2010, 18:34 pm
Defence
(using the same key as in 85 just defence)
Stegmann: 130………… 9.3……….. 0.168……….. 13% ………. 19%
Flou: 165 ………… 11 …….. 0.144 …….. 16.5% …………17%
Penalties:
Penalties ; /match ; /minute:
A writer try to make a category for penalties/BD and one including tackles and assists, since that’s where most of the penalties were conceded and where the focus was anyway. But that’s a bullshit stat, unless he can remove those conceded in other areas, it might have merit etc.
Stegmann: 19……… 1.35 …………(19/773) =0.0245
Flou: 21……… 1.4 ……….(21/1140) = 0.0184
13 Aug 2010, 18:37 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-88:
……….Louw Francois Stegmann Deon
Sum of Assist 51% 49%
Sum of Forced_Turnovers 43% 57%
Sum of Tackles_made 65% 35%
Sum of Tackles_Missed 63% 37%
Sum of Ball_Carries 80% 20%
Sum of Line_Breaks 89% 11%
Sum of Offloads 100% 0%
Sum of Overall_Gainline%66% 34%
Sum of Metres_Gained 85% 15%
Sum of Total_Passes 79% 21%
Sum of Playmaker_Pass 86% 14%
Sum of Handle_Count 72% 28%
Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Attack 52% 48%
Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Defence 61% 39%
These are my “secret” stats of them both with “normalised” figures – i.e. comparing both as a fraction of 1 (easy to compare)
13 Aug 2010, 18:39 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-90: Excuse the “sum as” – copy and paste from a pivot
13 Aug 2010, 18:40 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-79:
Anyway I don’t see the problem with those- the roles were quite different, and Flou made 6m per carry to Stegmann’s 4.
And broke the defence 9.5% of his carries to Steggies’ 8.3% Not much in it. Flou had similar handle counts which is directly related to this:
Passes ; handles ; handling errors ; handling errors per count ; “forced” and unforced errors ; per match ; per minute:
Stegmann:38 and 101…. 8…….. 0.57…. 0.079…. 7.9%…7… 0.5… 0.009
Flou:98 and 184…. 21……… 1.4…….. 0.114……11.4%……13….. 0.87 ……. 0.0114
So Stegmann was actually a neater player that conceded a less amount of errors etc.
13 Aug 2010, 18:43 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-90:
The normalization doesn’t work. Where are you totals from?
13 Aug 2010, 18:44 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-90:
Stegmann had more assists and so-called OOA on attack, so how does your stats not reflect this for example?
13 Aug 2010, 18:46 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-91:
It’s difficult to compare stats taken out of the context of two different teams…..much less amalgamate them and attempt to normalize.
You need a much more descriptive method, and at the very least something of a spreadsheet….
13 Aug 2010, 18:48 pm
Otherwise the long-winded way on here is to painstakingly go through each category provided and lay it out post-by-post, so that we can make better sense of it all.
Anyway, in short, the stats show Flou was only “better” in the ball carrying department.
13 Aug 2010, 18:49 pm
HG?
13 Aug 2010, 18:51 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-88:
Non-”normalised”
Louw Francois Stegmann Deon
Sum of Assist 28 27
Sum of Forced_Turnovers 3 4
Sum of Tackles_made 156 85
Sum of Tackles_Missed 17 10
Sum of Ball_Carries 84 21
Sum of Line_Breaks 8 1
Sum of Offloads 11 0
Average of Overall_Gainline% 73 66
Sum of Metres_Gained 495 85
Sum of Total_Passes 92 24
Sum of Playmaker_Pass 6 1
Sum of Handle_Count 170 66
Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Attack 191 176
Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Defence 151 95
13 Aug 2010, 18:52 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-93: Verusco – all stats for all matches of the S14, for all players
13 Aug 2010, 18:55 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-98:
Hangon a moment- I’ll show you mine…
These disagree quite widely. I got them from ruggastats.
13 Aug 2010, 18:59 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-95: The “normalisation” applies to each particular stat so that if you were comparing 5 different flankers for eg turnovers
Flanker 1 5
Flanker 2 5
Flanker 3 10
flanker 4 10
flanker 5 15
Total (for all) 45
“Normalising” them in this context:
Flanker 1 11%
Flanker 2 11%
Flanker 3 22%
flanker 4 22%
flanker 5 33%
13 Aug 2010, 18:59 pm
Apparently this was it:
Louw Francois || Stegmann Deon
Sum of Assist 29 42
Sum of Forced_Turnovers 3 6
Sum of Tackles_made 163 123
Sum of Tackles_Missed 17 10
Sum of Ball_Carries 94 36
Sum of Line_Breaks 9 3
Sum of Offloads 11 0
Average of Overall_Gainline% 74.5 65.5
Sum of Metres_Gained 558 143
Sum of Total_Passes 98 35
Sum of Playmaker_Pass 6 1
Sum of Handle_Count 184 101
Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Attack 206 297
Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Defence 165 130
So it seems almost all the categories for both players were cut down on. What happen there?
13 Aug 2010, 19:00 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-101:
Ja, but that can’t possibly be helpful since we aren’t getting a mode that’s comparable to either really.
13 Aug 2010, 19:05 pm
hey mishiwani what are you talking about, you fool. ¿under 19 2006 rugby world only 1 black player? and edgar marutlulle? marlon lewis? riacco eilerd? kirwan frieslaar? dabeon draghoender? chribo juries? karl mabeta? malungisa nkosi? musa tukela? andre smith?
this is the real quota team
13 Aug 2010, 19:06 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-100: Mine does exclude semi and final
13 Aug 2010, 19:06 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-102:
wait
Stegmann made 1 offload, Louw made 12…
13 Aug 2010, 19:08 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-103: Of course you are – you are comparing player A relative to the other player by each variable
13 Aug 2010, 19:08 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-105:
That’s still way out. Look at the “Sum of Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Attack” and compare ours, for example.
And the teams went to the finals both. (So the stats flatter Flou over Stegmann a bit too since Stegmann didn’t play in the last Stormers/Bulls match. AS well, Stegmann didn’t play full games like Flou as the minute played for anyone suggests…
13 Aug 2010, 19:09 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-106: I can give you for each game – you will have to copy and paste into notepad and then import into excel…
13 Aug 2010, 19:09 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-107:
NO I meant the trying to normalize the season total out of 100 together (whichever category).
13 Aug 2010, 19:11 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-109:
It’ll have to be done tomorrow- I’m at my lab pc. I can e-mail you my excell file- I have it on a thumb drive somewhere.
13 Aug 2010, 19:17 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-109: Here goes (a mess):
Position ID Team Name Assist Forced_Turnovers Tackles_made Tackles_Missed Ball_Carries Line_Breaks Offloads Overall_Gainline% Metres_Gained Total_Passes Playmaker_Pass Handle_Count Ruck_Turnover Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Attack Own _Team_OOA_1st3_Defence Penalties Total_Forced&Unforced_Errors Handling_Errors
6 BullsBlues Bulls Stegmann Deon 2 1 21 1 1 1 0 0 7 1 0 4 0 12 10 -5 0 0
6 BullsBrumbies Bulls Stegmann Deon 9 0 16 3 2 0 0 100 12 4 0 8 0 33 12 -2 0 -1
6 BullsChiefs Bulls Stegmann Deon 2 2 9 1 2 0 0 100 -5 1 1 5 0 25 12 -2 -1 -1
6 BullsCrusaders Bulls Stegmann Deon 6 1 12 0 3 0 0 100 2 3 0 6 0 16 12 0 0 0
6 BullsCrusadersSemi Bulls Stegmann Deon 0 0 5 4 5 0 0 33.33 16 5 0 11 0 18 17 -3 0 0
6 BullsForce Bulls Stegmann Deon 2 0 5 1 5 0 0 100 27 2 0 12 0 30 12 -2 -1 -3
19 BullsHighlanders Bulls Stegmann Deon 1 0 4 0 2 0 0 0 9 0 0 2 0 15 4 -1 0 0
6 BullsHurricanes Bulls Stegmann Deon 1 0 6 0 2 0 0 100 16 2 0 12 0 19 9 -1 -1 0
19 BullsLions Bulls Stegmann Deon 2 1 3 0 2 0 0 100 7 1 0 7 0 20 0 0 -2 -1
19 BullsReds Bulls Stegmann Deon 2 0 6 0 4 2 0 33.33 27 2 0 5 0 14 4 -2 -1 0
6 BullsSharks Bulls Stegmann Deon 5 0 11 0 1 0 0 0 10 6 0 8 0 23 11 0 -1 0
18 BullsWaratahs Bulls Stegmann Deon 0 1 1 0 3 0 1 100 6 2 0 7 0 14 5 0 0 -1
7 StormersBlues Stormers Louw Francois 2 0 16 3 4 0 0 100 20 4 0 9 0 11 12 -2 0 0
7 StormersBrumbies Stormers Louw Francois 0 1 4 1 7 0 0 71.43 10 9 0 18 0 15 6 -2 -1 -3
7 StormersBulls Stormers Louw Francois 4 0 10 0 3 0 0 50 27 5 2 7 0 16 8 -1 0 -1
7 StormersCheetahs Stormers Louw Francois 2 0 9 2 12 1 2 54.55 68 6 0 16 0 12 4 -1 0 -1
7 StormersChiefs Stormers Louw Francois 1 0 5 2 6 0 1 50 28 5 0 8 0 23 13 -1 0 0
7 StormersCrusaders Stormers Louw Francois 1 0 3 0 11 1 1 66.67 72 9 1 19 0 21 11 -1 -2 -2
7 StormersForce Stormers Louw Francois 5 0 16 4 3 0 0 66.67 22 8 1 11 0 12 12 -2 -2 -3
7 StormersHighlanders Stormers Louw Francois 3 0 13 0 4 1 2 75 30 8 1 10 0 16 10 -1 -2 -1
7 StormersHurricanes Stormers Louw Francois 4 0 18 0 2 1 1 100 21 8 0 9 0 16 15 -1 -1 -1
7 StormersLions Stormers Louw Francois 0 1 12 0 2 0 0 100 17 5 1 7 0 5 5 -2 0 0
7 StormersReds Stormers Louw Francois 0 0 8 1 10 2 2 87.5 69 10 0 17 0 20 12 -1 -3 -2
7 StormersSharks Stormers Louw Francois 2 0 15 2 10 1 1 66.67 76 6 0 15 0 8 14 0 -1 -3
7 StormersWaratahs Stormers Louw Francois 0 1 10 0 6 1 0 66.67 24 5 0 13 0 7 14 -4 -1 -1
7 StormersWaratahsSemi Stormers Louw Francois 4 0 17 2 4 0 1 75 11 4 0 11 0 9 15 -2 0 -1
Excuse the -ves for the last few variables – those feed into a player rating algorithm
(I encouraged a colleague (rugger nut) to have some fun with the data with some apps the equivalent of a pile driver to hammer a drawing pin into the wall).
We looked at all sorts of variables : eg implied points advantage for home games, all things being equal, rating of players for all variables, and much other stuff)
13 Aug 2010, 19:18 pm
hello?
13 Aug 2010, 19:20 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-112:
The copy I have is much neater.
I can e-mail you the excel file tonight or tomorrow.
13 Aug 2010, 19:21 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-112:
Who did you use?
13 Aug 2010, 19:29 pm
Will ring you tomorrow when I’ve got it and will mail it. We could lay them out neatly, side-by-side for passerbys to make sense of.
How’s that sound?
13 Aug 2010, 19:29 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-115: We used a couple of Stats / Econometric apps, Data miners etc – and then compared results… The results differed depending on methodology…
This was basically an afternoon with slack time – so it was a practical but enjoyable test of some analysis / simulation apps used for more “boring” stuff normally…
A nice little pearler was that for this year the home advantage for a team, adjusting for all these individual variables and team variables by game is between 7-8 points…
But that was using this data, obviously
13 Aug 2010, 19:34 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-116: No ringing necessary – anonymous is as anonymous HG does on Keo
No offence implied – can send you results of SQL server Datamining add-in for excel – game “predictor”….
The colleague used an algorithm normally used for credit evaluations (scorecards) to “predict” games (all based on this data)… Interesting stuff
13 Aug 2010, 19:54 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-108: But surely the fact that Flo plays extra games should count to his advantage – a “hardiness” bonus, as such…
13 Aug 2010, 20:19 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-118:
ok,I’ll email you,got it.
Busy watching Noot vir Noot now.
just set up a temporary email.
And just compare the totals at first and try to fit it into the context of each’s role.
is that ok?
13 Aug 2010, 20:57 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-120: Classic case of “show yours, I’ll show mine” – look, to be fair, you suggested contact – I will send to you first and then you can reply with your data…
13 Aug 2010, 22:30 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-121:
Ok, first one modded.
Let’s try again:
sendmeyourstats (at) hotmail (dot) com
It’s really an easy thing to compile (if you have a source), but I’ll sommer stuur it for your so that you’re ssaved the trouble. But be sure to verify if you’d like.
And I have another PDF with some calcs, but I don’t know where it is- still looking. But it’s simple too. (Anyway, you can make your own assumptions and calculations etc. And I’m sure it’ll become obvious that it isn’t so simple, and that Stegmann had a higher workrate and efficiency in many areas. One has to take the teams into account, but even if you knew nothing of either team or player, you’d be able to come to certain conclusions.)
OK?
13 Aug 2010, 22:46 pm
@Agile T*t-Tyrant(Anairetes agilis)-122: Sent
13 Aug 2010, 23:35 pm
@Heavens Game(Heavens Game)-124:
Ok, replied. Sorry for the delay.
14 Aug 2010, 19:46 pm
Is Naka’s time not up as well?
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